**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 01 02:59:58 2013
Oct 01 03:49:58 <int_ua> Why is /usr/bin/photolightmeter so suspiciously huge? It's double the size of OMP and Xorg while being just a couple of buttons in UI
Oct 01 04:12:13 <DocScrutinizer05> congrats USA! the teaparty reps took you as hostage
Oct 01 04:12:45 <int_ua> what's that about?
Oct 01 04:12:59 <ecc3g> people don't want to pay their taxes
Oct 01 04:14:25 <ecc3g> people don't want to work either... then again nobody offering jobs
Oct 01 04:14:35 <ecc3g> USA = one messed up financial system
Oct 01 04:16:01 <int_ua> Is it just thinking around or something happened that I've missed?
Oct 01 04:17:46 <ecc3g> nah, dont think anyone really should care about it except us who are in the US.
Oct 01 04:32:48 <DocScrutinizer05> well, seems like all government employees have unpaid offtime from now on, thanks to teaparty minority even in republican party that thinks they can rule the US and roll back legally installed laws
Oct 01 04:33:33 <DocScrutinizer05> all companies waiting for government paying their invoices will get into trouble as well
Oct 01 04:33:44 <doc|home> such is life when you run such a massive deficit
Oct 01 04:34:41 <DocScrutinizer05> I hope the sane 50% of americans will lynch the tea party fools
Oct 01 04:34:58 <doc|home> nice, advocacy of violence
Oct 01 04:35:51 <DocScrutinizer05> well, violence is what stops violence
Oct 01 04:36:17 <doc|home> what violence is being stopped again?
Oct 01 04:36:24 <DocScrutinizer05> and to me it pretty much looks like the tea party dudes are the aggressors
Oct 01 04:37:06 <jonwil> The real problem is that no-one on either side of politics in the US is willing to do any of the things that will actually FIX the US economy or the federal budget
Oct 01 04:37:17 <doc|home> I have no love for them, but that's easily one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen
Oct 01 04:37:26 <doc|home> jonwil: indeed
Oct 01 04:37:57 <jonwil> because the things that will fix the economy and budget are things that will hurt the big corporations who donate most of the lobbying money to US politicans
Oct 01 04:38:34 <doc|home> jonwil: and will hurt the huge number of people who get a government pay cheque with it
Oct 01 04:39:00 <DocScrutinizer05> tea party killing families that suddenly have no income, so what's wrong about hoping for the sane half of population kicking ass of those 1% that really has never grown a brain?
Oct 01 04:39:38 <doc|home> oh fuck, you're a 1% person
Oct 01 04:41:12 <doc|home> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0408/Government-shutdown-101-Will-Social-Security-and-Medicare-be-affected
Oct 01 04:41:30 <doc|home> and while CS may have "Christian" in the name (which I'm not) it's reporting is pretty good
Oct 01 04:41:58 <doc|home> the only things being shut down are "non-essential services", even those have >6% of staff still at work
Oct 01 04:42:17 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, great
Oct 01 04:42:26 <doc|home> what?
Oct 01 04:42:35 <doc|home> you're just plain wrong, but you're continuing?
Oct 01 04:42:37 <DocScrutinizer05> nevermind
Oct 01 04:42:42 <doc|home> ok
Oct 01 04:44:51 <jonwil> Increase taxes on wall street and the big end of town, cut spending on crap that the US doesn't need (like some of the really expensive defense, infrastructure and security projects that do nothing except benefit whichever big company had the right connections to win the bid) and use the extra money that the government now has to fund new-deal style massive job-creating projects
Oct 01 04:45:08 <jonwil> Plenty of projects the US could spend money on that would create real jobs for real Americans right now
Oct 01 04:45:34 <jonwil> if they stpped spending money on things they dont need (like expensive new toys for the military that do nothing except line the pockets of defense contractors)
Oct 01 04:46:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm just rolling on the floor laughing my ass off when I watch a nations that tries to export democracy to the world (with rifles and bombs if needed) now performs like... I dunno a good word to describe what's going on but it's not exactly any form of democracy
Oct 01 04:47:58 <jonwil> A lot of it has to do with propaganda
Oct 01 04:48:34 <jonwil> Rupert Murdoch and his Fox empire have a propaganda machine that makes the Nazi propaganda under Goebbels seem pathetic by comparison
Oct 01 04:48:52 <DocScrutinizer05> quite possible
Oct 01 04:48:55 <jonwil> His newspapers are barely fit for wrapping fish & chips in, let alone actually reading
Oct 01 04:49:16 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I don't ever ready or listen to any of that stuff
Oct 01 04:49:21 <DocScrutinizer05> read
Oct 01 04:49:25 <jonwil> I dont either
Oct 01 04:49:48 <jonwil> Too bad he part-owns the only Pay TV operation in Australia
Oct 01 04:50:06 <jonwil> The other owner is just as evil (Telstra, the formerly government-owned and still incumbent telco)
Oct 01 04:53:36 <DocScrutinizer05> for me from my supposedly relatively neutral unbiased european news it looks like tea party wants to stop obama care like they always did (somthing that's not really understood here in europe at all, where we think the society should take care about every member, and obama care looks quite natural to us, we basically always had that) - and now tea party took whole government institutions and their employees as hostages
Oct 01 04:55:02 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe I'm terribly poorly informed, then sorry
Oct 01 04:55:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I admit I haven't read either obama care law texts nor the tea party webpage
Oct 01 05:15:33 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: actually, obamacare isn't even close to what's normal for europeans
Oct 01 05:15:49 <kerio> but it's a step in the right direction, or something
Oct 01 05:16:15 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, still feels like third world to us, but it's at least a little step in right direction aiui
Oct 01 05:16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, how did we even find same words? :-)
Oct 01 08:00:02 <tzafrir_laptop> I'm trying to figure out what the software on neo900 should be:
Oct 01 08:00:35 <tzafrir_laptop> Should it run basically the same software included in maemo 5?
Oct 01 08:01:05 <tzafrir_laptop> Or a newer version based on Debian Stable / Linaro with a more recent kernel?
Oct 01 08:05:29 <kolp> tzafrir_laptop: As far as I understand, the idea is to be able to port maemo so that it remains binary compatible
Oct 01 08:06:01 <kolp> You'd be able to run anything you can run on the N900, unless it depends specifically on Neo900 hardware bits
Oct 01 08:06:01 <tzafrir_laptop> Hmm... this is a rather ancient stack by now
Oct 01 08:06:45 <tzafrir_laptop> One minor issue I had recently: the timezone defenitions are part of the package libc6 in maemo
Oct 01 08:07:02 <kolp> Updates / rebasing are parallel projects
Oct 01 08:07:11 <tzafrir_laptop> Whereas in recent Debian they are in a separate package, tzdata. This makes them trivial to upgrade
Oct 01 08:07:46 <kolp> Thing susch as 
Oct 01 08:08:21 <kolp> s/Thing susch as /Such things should be adressed in e.g. CSSU and are independent of the porting of maemo to the Neo900
Oct 01 10:19:15 <int_ua> What's the key for Delete in the Xephyr under SDK?
Oct 01 10:45:34 <int_ua> What's the status if Red Pill mode?
Oct 01 10:45:41 <int_ua> I cannot activate it in SDK
Oct 01 10:47:48 <int_ua> okay, it doesn't exist anymore. But what about downloading packages from download.maemo.nokia.com?
Oct 01 10:49:56 <int_ua> I tried to install extkbd because there's not Delete neither Backspace are functional
Oct 01 10:50:44 <int_ua> Anyone here with the SDK in VM?
Oct 01 13:35:42 <DocScrutinizer05> moinmoin
Oct 01 13:41:17 <meemoe> moin
Oct 01 13:42:28 <meemoe> Has anybody else experienced problems receiving emails with modest imap after /home had run full once?
Oct 01 13:48:30 <DocScrutinizer05> wouldn't surprise me
Oct 01 13:53:12 <meemoe> i know, i'm sorry, too.
Oct 01 13:56:52 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/01/its_alive_nokia_breathes_lightning_into_lumia_925/
Oct 01 14:09:06 <meemoe> Deleting and re-creating the account helped.
Oct 01 15:47:56 <int_ua> Hi. I'm currently digging the ssh-status and having problem with sudo. It just doesn't work in the sdk chroot. Any way to fix that?
Oct 01 15:50:28 <thedead1440> lol while reading the backlog for a moment i thought DocScrutinizer05 started arguing with himself (doc|home) only to realize it was actually 2 different people later... too many docs in a chan confuse people :D
Oct 01 15:58:37 <DocScrutinizer05> only doc.*zer is the real one :-)
Oct 01 15:59:31 <DocScrutinizer05> and that's the only regex that gives me highlight
Oct 01 15:59:59 <DocScrutinizer05> (well, nit really, there's also docsc.*)
Oct 01 16:03:24 <thedead1440> haha
Oct 01 16:26:37 <int_ua> Ok, I've replaced the sudo binary with sh script that contains fakeroot $@
Oct 01 17:21:59 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon_: pal: interested in porting another driver to fremantle KP?  http://forum.nitdroid.com/index.php?topic=601.0  ECI headset multibutton
Oct 01 17:22:15 <DocScrutinizer05> pali^^^
Oct 01 17:23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> the N900 schematics already labeled the 3 wires "ECI"
Oct 01 17:25:49 <DocScrutinizer05> https://gitorious.org/maemo-multimedia/ohm-plugins-misc/commit/5a3e156709f24eeb8fba5a313035dd8eb4d6ac4d
Oct 01 17:29:09 <lastaid> hello there :)
Oct 01 17:30:11 <lastaid> i am currently working on a n900 client for the metawatch, and i want to know if there is any way i can intercept notifications
Oct 01 17:30:58 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon_: 
Oct 01 17:31:00 <DocScrutinizer05> IroN900:~# ll /sys/devices/platform/ECI*
Oct 01 17:31:02 <DocScrutinizer05> ls: Zugriff auf /sys/devices/platform/ECI* nicht möglich: No such file or directory
Oct 01 17:31:12 <DocScrutinizer05> https://gitorious.org/maemo-multimedia/ohm-plugins-misc/source/c2ef14d5561af0ff792cead9e531249b72bdbc49:plugins/accessories/wired.c#L51
Oct 01 17:32:23 <DocScrutinizer05> lastaid: which notifications?
Oct 01 17:33:05 <DocScrutinizer05> basically no, for the general notification there's no way to intercept it afaik
Oct 01 17:33:38 <DocScrutinizer05> you can monitor for notification signals on dbus
Oct 01 17:34:49 <DocScrutinizer05> with a lot of dirty hacking you even might be able to write some "interceptor" when you create an own dedicated dbus-bus (besides session and system bus) and a intercepting bridge
Oct 01 17:35:49 <DocScrutinizer05> lastaid: prolly you need to elaborate on what exactly you want to do
Oct 01 17:36:59 <lastaid> ok
Oct 01 17:37:07 <lastaid> i am writing a python scrypt
Oct 01 17:37:40 <lastaid> that uses part of the client.py from n900 notify, it listens for a dbus signal signaling an incoming call or an sms
Oct 01 17:37:46 <lastaid> but thats the limitation of that
Oct 01 17:37:55 <lastaid> i want to get more messages, like skype and gtalk
Oct 01 17:38:18 <lastaid> by getting all notifications as an event, i can pipe those to my other script that connects to my smartwatch
Oct 01 17:38:22 <lastaid> and just display those
Oct 01 17:38:30 <DocScrutinizer05> well, so your question is?
Oct 01 17:38:41 <DocScrutinizer05> "how to detect inbound skype calls"?
Oct 01 17:39:53 <DocScrutinizer05> both SMS and inbound calls of any origin/transport are visible on dbus as signals/messages
Oct 01 17:40:34 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I'd dare to say the difference between GSM and skype/voip inbound calls is marginal on that level
Oct 01 17:41:38 <DocScrutinizer05> probably just the "account" value in dbus message differs
Oct 01 17:43:08 <lastaid> mh ...
Oct 01 17:43:34 <lastaid> my primary question is if i can tap into the notification bus
Oct 01 17:43:39 <DocScrutinizer05> no idea about client.py though
Oct 01 17:44:03 <DocScrutinizer05> there is no notification bus, there are messages on session dbus
Oct 01 17:44:10 <lastaid> ok
Oct 01 17:44:25 <lastaid> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_dbus
Oct 01 17:44:32 <lastaid> where exactly?
Oct 01 17:44:39 <DocScrutinizer05> err
Oct 01 17:44:57 <lastaid> :d
Oct 01 17:45:13 <lastaid> i am looking through this all day, but the documentation is scarse
Oct 01 17:45:25 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry I dunno dbus msgs by heart. I suggest you use dbus-monitor and find out by yourself
Oct 01 17:45:35 <lastaid> dbus mo nitor?
Oct 01 17:45:40 <lastaid> ?
Oct 01 17:46:00 <DocScrutinizer05> IroN900:~# dbus-monitor --help
Oct 01 17:46:01 <DocScrutinizer05> Usage: dbus-monitor [--system | --session] [--monitor | --profile ] [watch expressions]
Oct 01 17:47:39 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_dbus#com.nokia.csd.Call
Oct 01 17:47:55 <DocScrutinizer05> >>...l status, get notified about calls etc) <<
Oct 01 17:48:39 <DocScrutinizer05> for SIP and Skype this might differ
Oct 01 17:48:48 <lastaid> jepp
Oct 01 17:48:50 <DocScrutinizer05> but the message is probably the same
Oct 01 17:49:01 <lastaid> thanks, was not aware of that program
Oct 01 17:49:16 <DocScrutinizer05> since after all the same receiver acts identically on SIP and GSM inbound calls
Oct 01 17:49:49 <DocScrutinizer05> (receiver as in "destination" of dbus)
Oct 01 17:51:37 <DocScrutinizer05> I honestly suggest you write a typical onbound-call session via dbus-monitor to a file, for all types of inbound events you're interested in, then have a meditation on it for 1..2h and spot the messages you can use to trigger whatever you are interested in
Oct 01 17:51:46 <DocScrutinizer05> inbound*
Oct 01 17:52:45 <DocScrutinizer05> there are apps that act on inbound SMS vith a certain content, so those apps will most definitely listen to some SMS inbound event
Oct 01 17:53:59 <DocScrutinizer05> there are also apps that change ringtone for certain specific contact, so those apps will definitely listen to inbound-call event and analyze the caller number attached to that event's dbus data payload
Oct 01 17:54:47 <DocScrutinizer05> and in the end there is maemo-dialer that invariably pops up for any inbound voice call afaik
Oct 01 17:55:09 <DocScrutinizer05> it also listens to dbus signals and acts on them
Oct 01 17:57:19 <lastaid> i got  tap on the dbus now ^^
Oct 01 17:58:28 <DocScrutinizer05> actually it even acts on inbound Supplementary Service Codes and USSD responses as well, which is hard to intercept and stop. Not exactly always what you want to see when you e.g. write an app that sends "*100#" to query your account and then wants to display that account balance in a dedicated GUI rather than have dialer pop up and present the "raw" response text. You can find a ticket in b.m.o about the missing way to avoid dialer 
Oct 01 17:58:30 <DocScrutinizer05> popping up, aka "intercept that dbus signal"
Oct 01 17:59:58 <DocScrutinizer05> pretty obvious and undisputed API design flaw
Oct 01 18:00:05 <DocScrutinizer05> "WONTFIX" ;-P
Oct 01 18:03:10 <DocScrutinizer05> lastaid: most likely your signals will show up on session bus, but I can't guarantee it. So you probably should dbus-monitor both session and system bus
Oct 01 18:09:09 <DocScrutinizer05> actually it's a pretty interesting and arguable question whether an inbound call is owned by system or by session (and when by session then by which user's session). Even more funny to discuss than consolekit and the question who owns camera or audio
Oct 01 18:09:57 <DocScrutinizer05> I *think* on maemo they decided that calls are a session thing
Oct 01 18:10:25 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW owned by user who logged in
Oct 01 18:10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> which makes some sense, regarding that user "logs in" by SIM PIN
Oct 01 18:10:57 <ruskie> hmm anyone tried a sailfish or a tizien device yet?
Oct 01 18:11:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, some jolla employees
Oct 01 18:11:42 <DocScrutinizer05> I heard some are using a jolla sailfish device as their daily phone
Oct 01 21:22:48 <dos1> OT: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Secret-3G-Radio-in-Every-Intel-vPro-CPU-Could-Steal-Your-Ideas-at-Any-Time-385194.shtml
Oct 01 21:23:28 <dos1> is that even possible? how could that be usable without proper antenna?
Oct 01 21:25:13 <dos1> wouldn't it be extremely easy to detect?
Oct 01 21:30:02 <pdanek> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/sandy-bridge-vpro-core-i7,12353.html
Oct 01 21:30:28 <pdanek> Previous versions of Intel Anti-Theft Technology enabled authorized IT  or service personnel to send a coded "poison pill" over the Internet to  completely disable a lost or stolen computer and help prevent access to  its encrypted data and deter theft. New Intel AT 3.0 enables the poison  pill to be sent as an encrypted, authenticated SMS message by an  authorized administrator over a 3G cellular network as well within  moments after a missing laptop is tur
Oct 01 21:34:55 <dos1> pdanek: but I'd guess it that applies only to devices with 3g modem integrated
Oct 01 21:35:05 <dos1> some netbooks or similar stuff
Oct 01 21:35:28 <dos1> cpu with 3g communication seems crazy
Oct 01 21:38:25 <pdanek> For me, it's that simple, Intel Anti-Theft Technology = reason why there is 3G radio chip.
Oct 01 21:39:22 <pdanek> As it's written in link I sent above: Intel Anti-Theft Technology Ver. 3.0 (AT 3.0), included on all 2nd generation Intel Core and Core vPro processors.
Oct 01 21:39:43 <dos1> pdanek: well, I don't care about the reason
Oct 01 21:39:47 <pdanek> So it's included in CPU.
Oct 01 21:39:52 <dos1> I care about technical aspects
Oct 01 21:40:31 <pdanek> Don't worry, NSA isn't going to take over your laptop. :)
Oct 01 21:40:53 <pdanek> But you are right
Oct 01 21:40:57 <pdanek> it's stranhe w/o antenna
Oct 01 21:44:05 <dos1> not only that - 3g needs registration to the bts
Oct 01 21:45:05 <dos1> and such feature would need cooperation of all carieers on the world
Oct 01 21:45:26 <dos1> (i don't see "works only in usa" anywhere)
Oct 01 21:45:59 <dos1> and hell, I have speakers near the laptop
Oct 01 21:46:26 <dos1> I can hear very clearly if my mobile phone is near them :P
Oct 01 21:47:38 <dos1> such 3g modem can't get any sms if it's not associated with any base station, and I never heard it associating :P
Oct 01 22:13:42 <pdanek> you're right
Oct 01 22:38:13 <okias> Hey guys, I noticed neo900 project. Did you looked at Jolla specs? Why can't be used Jolla HW setup for n900?
Oct 01 22:39:42 <okias> why not join forces with jolla..
Oct 01 22:41:42 <psycho_oreos> Jolla's specs initially were somewhat quite vague. I guess that may have caused Neo900 to go quite a different path, besides both groups now have completely different approaches.
Oct 01 22:43:15 <okias> I'm afraid that n900 (maemo) model is not enough these days to bring developers make apps :( it needs some marketing.. (at least that Jolla have)
Oct 01 22:43:22 <dos1> well, jolla is just another commercial device
Oct 01 22:43:38 <okias> dos1: it's based on opensource.. so.. 
Oct 01 22:43:42 <dos1> i mean, jolla device, not jolla itself :)
Oct 01 22:43:49 <dos1> okias: well, so is android. and what?
Oct 01 22:44:30 <dos1> neo900 is open, hackable design in both software and hardware
Oct 01 22:44:46 <dos1> continuing openmoko and openphoenux path in this regard
Oct 01 22:46:04 <pdanek> neo900 is great initiative but it will never attract mass market
Oct 01 22:46:30 <pdanek> it will be hackable gadget like OpenMoko Freerunner was.
Oct 01 22:46:31 <okias> pdanek: :( yeah
Oct 01 22:46:31 <dos1> probably
Oct 01 22:46:34 <psycho_oreos> Nor would Jolla make a nice impact in the already packed handheld market.
Oct 01 22:46:46 <dos1> fortunately, it's not meant to be mass market device anyway
Oct 01 22:47:01 <okias> dos1: and if you remember how openmoko ended (at least in czech republic, everyone was happy when it was released... but usability ?? :D not too much )
Oct 01 22:47:08 <pdanek> well Jolla already reached 50 000 preorder registrations
Oct 01 22:47:25 <pdanek> and they have a big focus for Chinese market
Oct 01 22:47:30 <dos1> okias: yes, and we took the lession from that
Oct 01 22:47:52 <dos1> okias: that's why neo900 project is based on both gta04 and maemo
Oct 01 22:47:55 <okias> dos1: I like hackable things, but you have to spread it into world
Oct 01 22:48:10 <pdanek> Yea, OpenMoko is legend in Czech, still people are excited about it on every LinuxAlt session in Brno :D
Oct 01 22:48:12 <okias> dos1: there need to be normal "android-like" apps too
Oct 01 22:48:20 <psycho_oreos> Android iinm sees 500,000 activation. So what? Jolla still remains niche, at the end of the day.
Oct 01 22:48:22 <okias> pdanek: as n900 :D
Oct 01 22:48:24 <dos1> so from both sw and hw sides we have some good ground to base on
Oct 01 22:48:29 <dos1> something that openmoko was clearly missing
Oct 01 22:48:31 <wmarone> psycho_oreos: everyone is niche at the start
Oct 01 22:48:59 <okias> dos1: well, sw is little bit deprecated (as I see in my n900 with cssu)
Oct 01 22:49:18 <psycho_oreos> wmarone, yeah but I wouldn't suspect Jolla to pick up the trend amongst the market where people would either prefer android or iOS.
Oct 01 22:49:27 <wmarone> prefer?
Oct 01 22:49:36 <wmarone> or simply choose them because they are the options available?
Oct 01 22:49:37 <dos1> okias: but it's there, and it's pretty stable
Oct 01 22:49:45 <dos1> and well, this is open platform
Oct 01 22:49:48 <pdanek> Sailfish is actually very modern & up-to-date OS.
Oct 01 22:49:51 <okias> dos1: well, in that.. you have right
Oct 01 22:49:57 <pdanek> And HW-wise, it's "enough."
Oct 01 22:50:07 <psycho_oreos> No, it's not only because of the options available but because of many factors including their peers and their preferences.
Oct 01 22:50:08 <dos1> so no one is limited by any means to just one right OS
Oct 01 22:50:52 <okias> dos1: well, it just need big community (or company) support
Oct 01 22:51:09 <dos1> okias: small steps first
Oct 01 22:51:28 <dos1> something needs to be done before big community or company support can be reached
Oct 01 22:51:41 <okias> dos1: well, company support it's own product
Oct 01 22:51:41 <dos1> and I believe Neo900 is exactly this "something"
Oct 01 22:51:55 <dos1> okias: I mean, "big company"
Oct 01 22:52:27 <psycho_oreos> If one has an issue with say for example on android, they could ask maybe their next door neighbour who might just happen to own something powered by android. If it was running maemo even for instance, there's very little support in reality. Thereby it forces people to seek support like online where there may find people sharing similar interests.
Oct 01 22:52:43 <dos1> let's buy Neo900 as crazy and make Goldelico very big company, so it'll be able to produce more amazing stuff for us! :)
Oct 01 22:53:16 <dos1> well
Oct 01 22:53:32 <okias> dos1: well, for good selling product you need combination good hw+sw... then if you compare goals of neo900(mid-hw)+maemo(x11) vs jolla(high-hw)+jolla(wayland based)..
Oct 01 22:54:00 <okias> and Jolla will have it hard anyway
Oct 01 22:54:08 <dos1> okias: and? jolla device is not interesting for me at all
Oct 01 22:54:16 <okias> dos1: why not?
Oct 01 22:54:26 <pdanek> Neo900 will never become real competitor to Jolla.
Oct 01 22:54:39 <dos1> unless it'll be as open as freerunner, gta04 or neo900
Oct 01 22:54:40 <DocScrutinizer05> not on our agenda :-)
Oct 01 22:54:52 <okias> dos1: I hope it will be
Oct 01 22:54:55 <RiD> I am with you dos1
Oct 01 22:55:01 <RiD> i have no interest at jolla
Oct 01 22:55:01 <dos1> looks like it won't
Oct 01 22:55:09 <okias> dos1: why?
Oct 01 22:55:14 <dos1> if it will, I'll support them with my whole heart :P
Oct 01 22:55:46 <psycho_oreos> I'm certain Neo900's goal was to never dominate let alone compete with Jolla. If you look at it from an average Joe's point of view, Neo900 has hardware keyboard and is basically living off the fame of N900, Jolla is more like n9 and would probably attract those who liked n9's style.
Oct 01 22:55:55 <DocScrutinizer05> why compete when you can buy ;-P
Oct 01 22:56:01 <dos1> okias: it doesn't even look like their own OS will be 100% free
Oct 01 22:56:29 <pdanek> Jolla is most probably going to have other-half HW keyboard as well
Oct 01 22:56:42 <pdanek> I think most of N900 users, including me, will just buy Jolla
Oct 01 22:56:47 <psycho_oreos> The keyword there is: "probably". 
Oct 01 22:56:49 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I don't see that yet
Oct 01 22:56:49 <pdanek> if they didn't switch to Android yet
Oct 01 22:56:50 <psycho_oreos> Don't forget that.
Oct 01 22:57:13 <psycho_oreos> So far videos of Jolla released has not demonstrated hardware keyboard.
Oct 01 22:57:17 <pdanek> small portion of people who had N900 + OpenMoko guys, will go for Neo900
Oct 01 22:57:22 <DocScrutinizer05> and I never will go for crappy clumsy c-ts
Oct 01 22:57:25 <pdanek> ok, most probably
Oct 01 22:57:26 <RiD> does jolla even support landscape?
Oct 01 22:57:29 <RiD> apart from maybe videos and games
Oct 01 22:57:47 <dos1> pdanek: well, why do you think we aim for selling 200-300 devices? :)
Oct 01 22:57:56 <psycho_oreos> Nobody also knows what sort of package management, application ecology, etc is like for Jolla.
Oct 01 22:58:05 <DocScrutinizer05> N9 never been a pocket computer, unlike N900
Oct 01 22:58:13 <dos1> we could assume we'll sell 10 000 of them and announce prices based on that assumption from the beginning
Oct 01 22:58:13 <DocScrutinizer05> jolla will be the next N9
Oct 01 22:58:35 <dos1> but we're not doing that
Oct 01 22:58:40 <DocScrutinizer05> Nokia NIT series ended with N900
Oct 01 22:59:04 <RiD> who knows what will happen in 2018 if nokia doesn't go complete bankrupt
Oct 01 22:59:17 <RiD> Nokia HAL9000
Oct 01 22:59:21 <dos1> we're perfectly aware about who our target consumer is
Oct 01 22:59:34 <psycho_oreos> RiD, running windows 8 *snickers*
Oct 01 23:00:10 <RiD> ha I just tried some nokia windows 8 phone today
Oct 01 23:00:11 <dos1> N900 lovers + Openmoko lovers + "I'd buy GTA04 if it had hw keyboard" guys
Oct 01 23:00:14 <RiD> boring
Oct 01 23:00:46 <dos1> Neo900 is created mainly for those groups in mind
Oct 01 23:00:55 <okias> so, at least in neo900, will be normal (uncrippled) apt-get ?
Oct 01 23:01:10 <psycho_oreos> To be frank nokia sold off their mobile platform branch already to microsoft in a non-exclusive mutual deal. I wouldn't be surprised when the contract ends, nokia would  have all these windows developers and their fans looking forward to the next iteration of their mobile platform (let alone if the company still exists).
Oct 01 23:01:22 <dos1> of course anyone else is welcomed :) but we don't expect anyone else to go crazy about neo900
Oct 01 23:01:46 <okias> and wayland replacement of x11 would be nice :)
Oct 01 23:01:57 <dos1> okias: it's an open platform, just like PC
Oct 01 23:02:09 <dos1> okias: you're free to install full Debian GNU/Linux on it
Oct 01 23:02:26 <DocScrutinizer05> okias: no, there will be no OS at all "in Neo900"
Oct 01 23:02:28 <okias> dos1: as we both know, it will be damn hard to use it as phone
Oct 01 23:02:39 <dos1> there's FSO in Debian repo, so it should be even usable as a phone
Oct 01 23:02:51 <pdanek1> Look at OpenMoko Freerunner I know people who were excited for it, playing with it etc.
Oct 01 23:02:51 <pdanek1> But it was never fully usable device, it was rather a toy. So nobody should expect fully-polished device for end-user experience.
Oct 01 23:03:01 <dos1> there were some people using Debian on Freerunner as their main phones
Oct 01 23:03:15 <okias> dos1: I met them :P it was funny
Oct 01 23:03:15 <DocScrutinizer05> pdanek1: so what?
Oct 01 23:03:48 <dos1> pdanek1: Neo900 should be just as polished as N900 was
Oct 01 23:03:50 <psycho_oreos> At the end of the day, you choose what you want to use. Whether you like some commercially made platform and apps then you can get Jolla, otherwise there's Openmoko's Neo900.
Oct 01 23:03:52 <pdanek1> DocScrutinizer05: my net is dropping, my sentences are getting lost in context, forget it :D
Oct 01 23:03:57 <DocScrutinizer05> btw I used OM FR for my main and only daily phone for a year
Oct 01 23:04:13 <dos1> I'm using OM FR for my main and only daily phone for five years
Oct 01 23:04:28 <psycho_oreos> There's never a need to be nitpicky about either one or both those platforms, they both have different aims.
Oct 01 23:04:29 <dos1> with small break for N900
Oct 01 23:04:34 <RiD> i'm... using N900 for my main and only daily phone for 3 years 4 months
Oct 01 23:04:36 <pdanek1> dos1: ou!
Oct 01 23:05:04 <okias> psycho_oreos: yeah, but Jolla has much more powerfull hw
Oct 01 23:05:29 <dos1> psycho_oreos: +1
Oct 01 23:05:30 <okias> psycho_oreos: you know, sometimes you need crack some wpa on your phone :P
Oct 01 23:05:42 <psycho_oreos> okias, again you're comparing two different perspectives which I was pointing out earlier that it was the wrong idea.
Oct 01 23:05:45 <DocScrutinizer05> okias: really?
Oct 01 23:06:32 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.jollausers.com/2013/09/jollaspex
Oct 01 23:06:33 <okias> DocScrutinizer05: with n900 I never tried :P but it would be nice
Oct 01 23:06:51 <psycho_oreos> okias, WPA is not crackable in the near future if one has enforced proper security measures. Don't even go onto WPA cracking for handheld's, it'll take you years.
Oct 01 23:07:06 <RiD> decades
Oct 01 23:07:13 <DocScrutinizer05> WPA is not cracked yet
Oct 01 23:07:37 <DocScrutinizer05> neither on handheld nor on a grid
Oct 01 23:07:52 <okias> .. okey, wrong word... bruteforcing
Oct 01 23:07:56 <psycho_oreos> Some people think it is, though there are some chinks within WPA, notably WPS and maybe TKIP implementation. Though it is still remotely impossible to crack it with virtually any handheld.
Oct 01 23:08:02 <okias> well, I should just say WEP
Oct 01 23:08:20 <psycho_oreos> N900 already can break WEP, WEP is old and is getting phased out.
Oct 01 23:08:22 <dos1> WEP should be crackable in matter of seconds even on Freerunner :)
Oct 01 23:08:32 <okias> i knowwww :D
Oct 01 23:08:42 <okias> that's why I said wpa :P
Oct 01 23:08:43 <RiD> no one uses WEP anymore
Oct 01 23:08:49 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway completely missing the point
Oct 01 23:08:50 <psycho_oreos> If you want to live in the past and think that everyone still uses WEP, then by all means go ahead.
Oct 01 23:08:50 <pdanek1> They do!
Oct 01 23:08:52 <okias> RiD: .... 
Oct 01 23:09:08 <RiD> okias: ....
Oct 01 23:09:11 <okias> RiD: you'll be suprised.. thanks god for these sharing people :D
Oct 01 23:09:13 <ecc3g> I'm using WEP... on my N900 MHS... ouch...
Oct 01 23:09:15 <dos1> funny unrelated note: "free" in Polish is "wolny", which has also different meaning: slow
Oct 01 23:09:32 <psycho_oreos> There are some companies that still uses WEP with their legacy products. Though a security-savvy person would instantly force WPA.
Oct 01 23:09:43 <pdanek1> yes, just now connected to one WEP wifi in nearby flat
Oct 01 23:09:46 <dos1> Freerunner is pretty funny name for GTA02 when taking that into account :)
Oct 01 23:10:15 <pdanek1> WEP is like public wifi :D for some people
Oct 01 23:10:41 <psycho_oreos> People in my neighbour all use WPA, I'd have to get some huge antenna to even pick up a remote WEP AP>
Oct 01 23:10:56 <pdanek1> so I'm just fortunate :D
Oct 01 23:11:09 <okias> psycho_oreos: rather try sneak in with ethernet cable and enter user admin, pass admin >D
Oct 01 23:11:11 <okias> :D
Oct 01 23:11:19 <okias> then read WPA password :D
Oct 01 23:11:23 <RiD> ^
Oct 01 23:11:29 <psycho_oreos> :p
Oct 01 23:11:29 <RiD> that's how I did for my neighbour
Oct 01 23:11:31 <psycho_oreos> brb
Oct 01 23:14:49 <pdanek1> Is it immoral to use neighbour's WEP Wi-fi for more than half year? Nice and stable 10mbit, gratis.
Oct 01 23:15:35 <pdanek1> Maybe I should leave them a chocolate in front of door when I will leave my current rented flat, with a message to change their WEP.
Oct 01 23:22:39 <RiD> "wep? what is wep?"
Oct 01 23:24:18 <okias> divVerent: ping, you tried compile mpv on maemo?
Oct 01 23:36:25 <okias> and dont forget to make neo900 multipath tcp enabled :P
Oct 02 02:36:21 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: infobot joined!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Oct 02 02:59:58 2013