**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Apr 19 02:59:59 2014
Apr 19 10:55:18 <Sicelo> so i have just found that i can apply for a free 'unrestricted apn' from my operator, which allows incoming connections
Apr 19 10:55:37 <Sicelo> noy sure if i should go for it or not :-/
Apr 19 10:59:03 <Sicelo> i do have iptables running, allowing onlyincoming ssh traffic. ping is blocked
Apr 19 16:46:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Sicelo: inbound traffic *always* makes moden answer on layer1 with an ACK (or NAK) aiui. Which means somebody cna keep your TX busy even with hammering on the door of closed ports
Apr 19 16:47:25 <Sicelo> that's what has stopped me applying for now
Apr 19 16:47:33 <DocScrutinizer05> you seriously want to consider if you wanna do this
Apr 19 16:48:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ideally your carrier allows you to configure the carrier-site NAT remotely, e.g. via uPnP
Apr 19 16:49:42 <DocScrutinizer05> then it's up to you and your apps to define which inbound traffic is welcome and which shall bounce at NAT already
Apr 19 16:50:26 <Sicelo> nope. they just open up everything
Apr 19 16:52:42 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I duno of any carrier that offers this service. Unless you become your own carrier ;-), resp POP
Apr 19 16:52:53 <DocScrutinizer05> VPN to your own server
Apr 19 16:52:58 <DocScrutinizer05> NAT on server
Apr 19 16:53:28 <Sicelo> anyway, i guess i'll let go of the offer for now
Apr 19 16:53:42 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry?
Apr 19 16:53:54 <DocScrutinizer05> go for?
Apr 19 16:54:03 <DocScrutinizer05> aah let go
Apr 19 16:54:16 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, prolly best
Apr 19 16:54:36 <DocScrutinizer05> though, you can change APNs as you like, unless it's an either-or offer
Apr 19 16:55:46 <DocScrutinizer05> I still have to wrap my head around what frals did for fmms alternative APNs
Apr 19 16:56:26 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc usually a modem offers up to 4 concurrent/alternative AP configs, and you simply switch between them
Apr 19 16:56:52 <DocScrutinizer05> I bet ISI doesn't support that, or at least libisi doesn't
Apr 19 16:57:40 <DocScrutinizer05> so I wonder if fmms actually reconfigures the modem each time it needs to access a MMS, and beck to default after it's done
Apr 19 16:57:45 <DocScrutinizer05> back even
Apr 19 16:57:50 <Sicelo> which reminds me to check progress on http://elinux.org/N900
Apr 19 16:58:18 <DocScrutinizer05> whicj reminds me I planned to have a walk in the big bluebox ~3h ago
Apr 19 18:56:58 <Tekk_> is there some way to select multiple messages in the mail app?
Apr 19 18:57:08 <Tekk_> having to delete each individual message is a massive pain
Apr 19 19:00:51 <freemangordon> Tekk_: ctrl-A
Apr 19 19:01:01 <freemangordon> and then start typing to filter
Apr 19 19:01:51 <Tekk_> hm
Apr 19 19:01:56 <Tekk_> I tried ctrl+a before and it didn't work
Apr 19 19:02:05 <Tekk_> just tried again(and ctrl+A), still nothing :/
Apr 19 19:02:16 <Tekk_> looks like my inbox is refreshing though, I'll try again once that's finished
Apr 19 19:04:24 <freemangordon> it works (ctrl-A)
Apr 19 19:04:27 <freemangordon> :)
Apr 19 19:04:37 <freemangordon> oh, wait
Apr 19 19:04:55 <freemangordon> you should first select what you want to do (delete, move, etc)
Apr 19 19:04:59 <Tekk_> ah
Apr 19 19:05:05 <freemangordon> and then ctrl-A
Apr 19 19:12:24 <Tekk_> thanks freemangordon 
Apr 19 19:15:24 <freemangordon> np
Apr 19 20:55:26 <DocScrutinizer05> of course deliting the whole damn database file was an alternative way
Apr 19 20:55:36 <DocScrutinizer05> deleting*
Apr 19 20:56:10 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, mail, sorry
Apr 19 20:56:23 <Tekk_> DocScrutinizer: yes, but deleting the mail db would work as well :)
Apr 19 20:56:47 <DocScrutinizer05> NFC about modest and its db's and whatnot
Apr 19 20:57:16 <DocScrutinizer05> all I know is: mail body isn't stored in a db, unlike SMS body
Apr 19 20:57:28 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik
Apr 19 20:57:51 <Tekk_> ah
Apr 19 20:57:52 <DocScrutinizer05> in HARM they allegedly changed that, a terrible idea
Apr 19 20:58:10 <DocScrutinizer05> poor friggin tracker
Apr 19 20:58:14 <Tekk_> oh, with all of the neo900 stuff are there any plans to improve maemo itself?
Apr 19 20:58:20 <Tekk_> maybe a new launcher which actually lets you search your apps
Apr 19 20:58:27 <Tekk_> (as I understand it the current one is proprietary, isn't it?)
Apr 19 20:58:57 <DocScrutinizer05> errr, dunno, shouldn't be too hatd to write a new one, this is braindead stuff afzer all
Apr 19 20:59:12 <DocScrutinizer05> errr, dunno, shouldn't be too hard to write a new one, this is braindead stuff after all
Apr 19 20:59:21 <Tekk_> okay
Apr 19 20:59:47 * Tekk_ is still torn between jolla and neo900
Apr 19 21:00:13 <DocScrutinizer05> but as mentioned at several places, Neo900 group is strictly about hardware. It's the community - particularly FPTF - rthat takes care about porting (and maybe improving) maemo
Apr 19 21:00:30 <Tekk_> yeah
Apr 19 21:00:53 <DocScrutinizer05> jolla is fine when it's "free enough for you"
Apr 19 21:01:43 <DocScrutinizer05> they again do that "we provide it for you" nonsense. And they even CANNOT provide all it needs to at least reflash the device
Apr 19 21:02:16 <DocScrutinizer05> not my way
Apr 19 21:03:36 <DocScrutinizer05> so much not my way that I even didn't bother yet to "root" my jolla device
Apr 19 21:04:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I.E. I can only tell you about its idiosyncrasies from hearsay. One of those hearsays is: it has 25 partitions of which only 5 are documented and FOSS
Apr 19 21:04:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and thus flashable
Apr 19 21:05:08 <DocScrutinizer05> nuke any of the other 20 and you're doomed
Apr 19 21:05:36 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly this sounds almost worse than N9
Apr 19 21:06:52 <nox-> :(
Apr 19 21:06:55 <bencoh> DocScrutinizer05: you actually have a jolla ?
Apr 19 21:07:11 <bencoh> waitwaitwait o.O
Apr 19 21:07:24 <DocScrutinizer05> unless you say "as long as I may code my QML apps, I don't care what the system does" - then it's for sure a fine device for you
Apr 19 21:08:32 <DocScrutinizer05> bencoh: yep, I do. As well as I got a N950, a N9, even a few winphones from ~6 years ago
Apr 19 21:08:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I never get around to sell any of them, since selling is too much hassle
Apr 19 21:08:56 <bencoh> n950 I can understand why ;)
Apr 19 21:09:36 <DocScrutinizer05> actually for N950 I can't understand at all why I ignored/rejected those ~2k bucks a sale could have earned me
Apr 19 21:10:14 <DocScrutinizer05> I also can't understand why I not already disassembled it to the bones
Apr 19 21:10:39 <DocScrutinizer05> err, why I not disassembled N9
Apr 19 21:10:41 <bencoh> because it is still a pretty nice thing after all ? :)
Apr 19 21:10:45 <bencoh> oh, n9, yeah
Apr 19 21:11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> N950 disassmbly is no gain on any level, since it's a poorly tested hw and I can't learn much from it
Apr 19 21:11:45 <bencoh> dont we have specs anyway ?
Apr 19 21:11:54 <DocScrutinizer05> then OTOH for N9 I have schematics, so...
Apr 19 21:17:54 <Tekk_> oh yeah, with qml writing a new launcher probably wouldn't be much of a pain at all
Apr 19 21:18:03 <Tekk_> relative to doing it in hildon at least
Apr 19 21:23:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see any problem in "writing it in hildon" either
Apr 19 21:24:18 <Tekk_> not that it's problem, just that qml makes things a bit easier than writing it in C I imagine
Apr 19 21:24:45 <DocScrutinizer05> actually, I might be mistaken but I thought there actually already *are* alternative launchers
Apr 19 21:24:51 <DocScrutinizer05> for fremantle
Apr 19 21:25:16 <Tekk_> nice
Apr 19 21:25:55 <DocScrutinizer05> (qml vs C) that depends a lot on what you wanna do. dirt simple things are most simple in QML. Complex things are most complex and probably impossible in QML
Apr 19 21:26:06 <Tekk_> ah
Apr 19 21:26:17 <Tekk_> I've actually not had the chance to play with either yet. I only got the sdk set up recently :/
Apr 19 21:26:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I tend to thin of QML coding like writing a webpage
Apr 19 21:26:48 <DocScrutinizer05> think*
Apr 19 21:27:09 <DocScrutinizer05> sure it's simple, as long as you don't need real good stuff
Apr 19 21:27:36 <DocScrutinizer05> you wouldn't code doom or whatever first person shooter in HTML, eh?
Apr 19 21:27:38 <Tekk_> mhm
Apr 19 21:27:52 <Tekk_> DocScrutinizer05: that would be a good example if people weren't doing exactly that these days :/
Apr 19 21:28:09 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, a pity
Apr 19 21:28:10 <Tekk_> you probably have to move to Rage
Apr 19 21:28:17 <Tekk_> since mozilla got unreal engine 3 working in js
Apr 19 21:28:23 <DocScrutinizer05> too many webcoders, too few real programmers
Apr 19 21:28:51 <Tekk_> hey, there can be hybrids at the fun intersections :P
Apr 19 21:28:58 * Tekk_ once wrote a web thing in assembly because a friend said that you couldn't
Apr 19 21:29:09 <DocScrutinizer05> lol
Apr 19 21:29:53 <bencoh> :]
Apr 19 21:29:54 <DocScrutinizer05> when you can't do it in FORTRAN, do it in ASSEMBLER. When you ca't do it in assembler, it#s not worth getting done at all
Apr 19 21:30:47 <Tekk_> actually I have to say that assembly on linux is not bad at all
Apr 19 21:30:54 <Tekk_> it was more or less just C with more boilerplate
Apr 19 21:31:04 <Tekk_> and most of that boilerplate was because I was avoiding linking against libc :P
Apr 19 21:31:26 <bencoh> int0x80 all the way
Apr 19 21:31:29 <Tekk_> yep
Apr 19 21:31:41 <Tekk_> writing all the string manipulation stuff from scratch was definitely fun
Apr 19 21:32:01 <bencoh> wouldn't call that 'fun' but yeah :)
Apr 19 21:32:12 <bencoh> (its fun for the first time)
Apr 19 21:32:28 <Tekk_> oh yeah, I'm sure it gets boring after your 5th time
Apr 19 21:34:18 <DocScrutinizer05> when you're writing such stuff 5 times, you should get punished by doing windows administration for at least 1 year
Apr 19 21:34:36 <bencoh> noo~
Apr 19 21:34:39 <DocScrutinizer05> without mouse, only keyboard
Apr 19 21:35:10 <DocScrutinizer05> even in assembler you can write modular and even OO code
Apr 19 21:35:23 <bencoh> ahem
Apr 19 21:35:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, the tools are not that great for doing so
Apr 19 21:36:26 <DocScrutinizer05> but macro assemblers been invented before anybody knew what's fortran
Apr 19 21:37:53 <DocScrutinizer05> modern risk architecture makes it a tad more cumbersome to re-use code
Apr 19 21:38:10 <DocScrutinizer05> but basically it still works all the same
Apr 19 21:41:05 <Tekk_> DocScrutinizer05: I don't remember who
Apr 19 21:41:11 <Tekk_> but someone used to sell an "object-oriented" macro assembler
Apr 19 21:41:20 <Tekk_> borland maybe?
Apr 19 21:41:31 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds about real
Apr 19 21:41:49 <DocScrutinizer05> borland would be the first candidate for that
Apr 19 21:41:54 <Tekk_> https://monate.codeplex.com/ that's one
Apr 19 21:42:37 * Tekk_ can't seem to find the particular one he was looking for
Apr 19 21:45:50 <DocScrutinizer05> and after all c itself is a glorified assembler language ;-)
Apr 19 21:46:59 <DocScrutinizer05> writing c you almost can feel what the opcodes will be that will get generated by the compiler
Apr 19 21:48:08 <DocScrutinizer05> and some idiotic property of c is based on exactly this original principle of simply creating a opcode macro for ever c syntactical element
Apr 19 21:49:00 <DocScrutinizer05> think "case", think "for" loops
Apr 19 21:50:02 <DocScrutinizer05> think pointer arithmetic and arrays
Apr 19 21:50:27 <DocScrutinizer05> strings
Apr 19 21:50:43 <DocScrutinizer05> boolean errr
Apr 19 21:51:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I wait for the moment when machine code is more advanced and abstract than c sourcecode. Then it gets really funny
Apr 19 21:53:15 <DocScrutinizer05> "sorry, c programs are really unbearably slow on this new architecture. The CPU executes native python code"
Apr 19 21:53:18 <Tekk_> DocScrutinizer05: it's already sort of like that
Apr 19 21:53:33 <Tekk_> mmx and stuff provide native vector things, for example
Apr 19 21:53:39 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
Apr 19 21:53:46 <bencoh> DocScrutinizer05: :D
Apr 19 21:53:53 <Tekk_> plus your python cpu already sort of exists in the jazelle arm extension :)
Apr 19 21:53:57 <Tekk_> except that's java bytecode, not python
Apr 19 21:54:09 <bencoh> it's almost the case for embedded jvm
Apr 19 21:54:29 * Tekk_ wonders why people haven't come out with that for dalvik yet
Apr 19 21:54:52 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe because jazelle is broken crap?
Apr 19 21:54:56 <bencoh> they dont ?
Apr 19 21:55:02 <bencoh> I actually thought they did
Apr 19 21:56:52 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess jazellle is like DMA in 486, the CPU does it faster natively than the DMA(/jazelle) controller can do it
Apr 19 21:57:23 <bencoh> maybe
Apr 19 21:58:43 <Tekk_> :/
Apr 19 21:58:52 <Tekk_> all of the nokia docs for qt4 on maemo are dead
Apr 19 21:59:14 <RST38h> Which jazelle?
Apr 19 21:59:22 <bencoh> arm jazelle jvm
Apr 19 21:59:29 <DocScrutinizer05> Tekk_: ouch
Apr 19 21:59:38 <RST38h> There are multiple jazelles
Apr 19 21:59:49 <RST38h> The original one, which was deprecated
Apr 19 21:59:51 <Tekk_> actually
Apr 19 21:59:52 <DocScrutinizer05> Tekk_: wondered when it will happen
Apr 19 21:59:55 <Tekk_> DocScrutinizer05: worse
Apr 19 22:00:02 <RST38h> And the new one which is not exactly java cpu,afaik
Apr 19 22:00:06 <Tekk_> qt.nokia.com and trolltech.com are entirely gone
Apr 19 22:00:19 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Apr 19 22:00:48 <bencoh> RST38h: the "new" one as ThumbEE ?
Apr 19 22:01:01 <RST38h> Also, it might be worth pondering on why you need a special "CPU" to run your designer language of choice, rather than switch to a real compiled language like C or C++
Apr 19 22:01:15 <RST38h> bencoh: correct
Apr 19 22:02:22 <bencoh> hmm, does maemo sdk works on wheezy (I don't care about the graphical part) ?
Apr 19 22:02:36 <DocScrutinizer05> RST38h: (compiled lang) that's what we came from, evetually the CPU intruction set will be more complex and abstract than C sourcecode
Apr 19 22:02:58 <RST38h> Doc: Sorry, not getting your comparison.
Apr 19 22:03:11 <bencoh> (wiki mentions squeeze)
Apr 19 22:03:17 <RST38h> Doc: CPU ISA and C syntax are two completely different entities
Apr 19 22:03:20 <DocScrutinizer05>  didn't know I did compare something
Apr 19 22:03:45 <RST38h> Doc: You can't call one more complex than the other because they essentially mean different things
Apr 19 22:03:54 <DocScrutinizer05> uhuh
Apr 19 22:04:15 <DocScrutinizer05> except for jazelle, right?
Apr 19 22:04:17 <RST38h> Doc: Are you comparing them based on the number of keywords? Or the number of builtin functions? Or something else?
Apr 19 22:04:19 <RST38h> Doc: No
Apr 19 22:04:32 <RST38h> Doc: Jazelle is just that - a semi-hardware JVM
Apr 19 22:04:42 <DocScrutinizer05> meh
Apr 19 22:04:46 <RST38h> Doc: But JVM byte code is not the same thing as Java
Apr 19 22:05:03 <DocScrutinizer05> dozble-meh
Apr 19 22:05:13 <RST38h> Doc: It is a rather arbitrarily chosen stack-based ISA
Apr 19 22:05:35 <RST38h> Doc: Which cannot be efficiently implemented in hw because whoever has chosen it did not target hw
Apr 19 22:05:41 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry I'm neither interested in an argument nor a lesson
Apr 19 22:06:03 <RST38h> Doc: Well, it is a rather good example of how NOT to design an ISA :)
Apr 19 22:06:13 <DocScrutinizer05> so what?
Apr 19 22:06:22 <RST38h> Doc: + you can endlessly troll remaining Java adepts with it =)
Apr 19 22:11:13 <DocScrutinizer05> when you wanna argue with me, tell me what's so great about QML
Apr 19 22:11:31 <RST38h> Ahhahahaha
Apr 19 22:11:35 <bencoh> :)
Apr 19 22:11:43 <DocScrutinizer05> and how it makes sense to support only QML for developing apps
Apr 19 22:11:55 <RST38h> Doc: My favorite topic as well =)
Apr 19 22:12:29 <RST38h> Doc: Usually makes them sheepishly say that "yes, it takes way more code to do it in QML, but I get feature X not available with QWidgets"
Apr 19 22:14:20 <RST38h> Doc: Based on how messed up the QML stuff is and how adamantly the top trolls insist on using it, it must have been invented by some lonely top cheese at Trolltech, who later made it a company policy 
Apr 19 22:14:50 <Tekk_> the idea of a declarative ui isn't a bad one
Apr 19 22:14:54 <Tekk_> I can't speak to the implementation yet though
Apr 19 22:14:59 <RST38h> The idea is years old
Apr 19 22:15:05 <Tekk_> but it is kinda nice in gtk to be able to just use glade and fill in the hooks
Apr 19 22:15:10 <RST38h> Freaking MOTIF had declarative UI
Apr 19 22:15:23 <Tekk_> yeah, the idea is ancient
Apr 19 22:15:35 <RST38h> Gtk is another can of worms
Apr 19 22:16:23 * RST38h liked how gnomes invented their own object-oriented language, which looked exactly like C++ or C#, but avoided any references to C++/C# in their web pages and documentation
Apr 19 22:20:10 <merlin1991> bencoh: I run the sdk on wheezy
Apr 19 22:21:44 <bencoh> did you need any change to the wiki howto ?
Apr 19 22:21:55 <bencoh> (except s/etch/wheezy/ instead of squeeze)
Apr 19 22:27:05 <Tekk_> hm, weird
Apr 19 22:27:24 <Tekk_> I'm getting "Script is not a type" for the qml example
Apr 19 22:34:20 <Tekk_> did they seriously throw every non-layout widget into a single "Rectangle" type....?
Apr 19 22:34:48 * Tekk_ is starting to see why qml is problematic
Apr 20 00:24:44 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-04-16 Wed 03:32:56] <DocScrutinizer05> natsukao: you've been warned twice to stop
Apr 20 00:24:45 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-04-16 Wed 03:33:20] <natsukao> I° Amendament of American Constitution defends Freedom Of Speech
Apr 20 00:24:47 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-04-16 Wed 03:33:31] *** You set a ban on natsukao!*@*.
Apr 20 00:24:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://xkcd.com/1357/
Apr 20 00:25:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
Apr 20 00:25:56 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if xkcd listening in this channel ;-)
Apr 20 00:26:43 <DocScrutinizer05> more likely, natsukao proceeded to an arbitrary number of other channels doing same stunt
Apr 20 00:28:06 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listkeys speech
Apr 20 00:28:09 <infobot> Factoid search of 'speech' by key (5): freespeech ;; text to speech. sa1110/206mhz ;; goblin speech ;; speechd ;; speech for java.
Apr 20 00:28:28 <DocScrutinizer05> ~free speech is http://xkcd.com/1357/
Apr 20 00:28:29 <infobot> okay, DocScrutinizer05
Apr 20 02:12:09 <Maxdamantus> Though I imagine they can arrest you for what you say, in some cases.
Apr 20 02:13:13 <Maxdamantus> eg, if you phone 911 and report something that didn't happen, if significant resources are wasted on it.
Apr 20 02:19:28 * Maxdamantus wonders if the US has defamation laws.
Apr 20 02:29:08 <Tekk_> Maxdamantus: yes
Apr 20 02:29:13 <Tekk_> but they're much weaker than the UK's
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 20 02:59:58 2014