**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Aug 09 02:59:59 2014 Aug 09 06:38:01 why didn't anyone tell RiD about kernel.deb's fiasco image Aug 09 06:38:09 you guys fucking suck Aug 09 07:22:30 tell news Aug 09 12:20:47 mornin... Aug 09 14:04:38 With the recent announcement by Microsoft that they are dropping support for Skype for Windows Phone 7, I wonder how long it will be before the N900 looses Skype... Aug 09 14:08:52 jonwil: I don;t think we can do much Aug 09 14:09:27 yeah I know, I just wonder if there has been any sort of notice from MS about what might happen Aug 09 14:12:57 TBH I am more concerned what will happen on linux desktop Aug 09 14:15:33 I haven't seen anything to suggest Microsoft would drop support for Skype on Linux desktop, they already reversed decision to abandon support for Mac OS 10.5.x and that OS has less user base than Linux Aug 09 14:16:48 Its a matter of how much work is required to support a platform vs how much the platform brings in benefits to MS Aug 09 14:17:19 I doubt linux brings any benefit to MS Aug 09 14:17:35 The question is whether they needed extra effort on serverside for skype on w7 Aug 09 14:17:42 quite the contrary Aug 09 14:18:59 The likely answer for MS is that they are retiring older Skype protocol variants and don't want to spend the engineering resources to update Skype for windows phone 7 to support the newer protocols Aug 09 14:19:26 Considering the pain it is to make anything for w7, it wouldn't surprise me if they had created custom protocol for w7 Aug 09 14:19:45 jonwil: well.. is Skype on N900 even supported anyway? Aug 09 14:20:04 Its not about whether its supported, its about whether it works Aug 09 14:20:12 and whether Microsoft makes a change somewhere that stops it working Aug 09 14:21:21 seems like they dont want to invest resources to update Skype on windows phone 7 so it will keep working Aug 09 14:25:45 yes, but with Skype on N900 being practically abandonned for quite a long time, it already can happen at any moment (and I'm actually surprised that it didn't earlier given that I seem to recall some incompatibilities introduced as a response to reverse engineering efforts) Aug 09 14:32:05 I'm using skype only on n900 and today I got email (to address registred at skype account) from skype/MS "Your Skype for Linux version is being retired. Update today." Aug 09 14:32:29 and they suggest me to update skype for linux to last desktop version... Aug 09 14:32:34 hahaha no armel binary Aug 09 14:32:56 iirc skype on Maemo was originally criticized a bit because it was the full desktop protocol :) Aug 09 14:41:20 pali! Aug 09 14:41:37 ? Aug 09 14:41:40 hi! Aug 09 14:41:43 hi! Aug 09 14:44:30 google abandoned xmpp (no audio/video calls from n900 to hangouts), MS going to abandon skype on n900 Aug 09 14:44:56 so basically there will be no normal audio+video call support Aug 09 14:45:23 the bitrot is real Aug 09 14:46:38 Pali: is it possible to make google hangaouts working? is it open? (the protocol) Aug 09 14:46:46 *hangouts Aug 09 14:46:50 no closed source Aug 09 14:47:12 and all google clients are probably only wrapper around html5 code Aug 09 14:47:27 so maybe it could be possible if somebody start hacking it Aug 09 14:47:29 so, basically there is no option. what about FB? Aug 09 14:47:38 audio+video over xmpp should still work though, no need to use google for that Aug 09 14:47:43 I have no facebook account --> no idea Aug 09 14:48:02 I have, but never used it for anything else but chat Aug 09 14:48:05 yes, our telepathy gabble should work for audio+video via xmpp Aug 09 14:48:12 I fixed some problems, package is in CSSU-devel Aug 09 14:48:24 it should work against gmail web plugin Aug 09 14:48:32 (at least 2 months ago worked) Aug 09 14:48:34 however, I guess maemo has bigger problems ARM Aug 09 14:48:42 *ATM Aug 09 14:48:58 like no CSSU updates since the stone age Aug 09 14:49:17 * freemangordon wonders what has happened with merlin1991 Aug 09 14:49:44 BTW. Pali: Hi and welcome back Aug 09 14:50:03 hi :-) Aug 09 14:50:26 Pali: hows your education going? did you take your exams? Aug 09 14:51:02 I finished my bachelor thesis before deadline :-) Aug 09 14:51:09 great :) Aug 09 14:51:13 and all I have passed all exams Aug 09 14:51:32 bravo man Aug 09 14:51:47 so you are back to maemo? Aug 09 14:51:47 now I have some free time, next month I have last final bachelor exam Aug 09 14:51:56 great Aug 09 14:52:51 Pali: BTW we should find merlin1991 somehow and decide on the future of CSSU. If such thing exists at all (the fufture) Aug 09 14:52:59 *future Aug 09 14:53:09 * merlin1991 turns up Aug 09 14:53:10 ok, where is merlin1991? Aug 09 14:53:16 OMG, he's alive Aug 09 14:53:19 :D Aug 09 14:53:19 :D Aug 09 14:53:43 merlin1991: where you've been man, is everything ok with you? Aug 09 14:54:01 Will do the stable pre release today when my pc is up again Aug 09 14:54:15 hooray :) Aug 09 14:55:13 merlin1991: but honestly, I think we should appoint a meeting and decide on how shall all this continue Aug 09 14:55:19 I'm ok, only my free time is quite nonexistant ... Aug 09 14:55:26 yeah :( Aug 09 14:55:51 is there any chance the situation to improve? Aug 09 14:56:19 wom 5 Aug 09 14:56:35 I'll try to get sixwheeled.. ready todo stable after this release Aug 09 14:56:51 at least it will be good to give sixwheeled.. some clue on how to make releases Aug 09 14:57:11 * freemangordon was slow with the typing Aug 09 15:00:49 I plan on setting up a pre release repo just like we have with testing-testing Aug 09 15:01:17 and then I'll give sixwheeled.. an intro how todo the metapackage and how to test it before releasing it to the wild Aug 09 15:01:53 that should prevent most simple errors from sneaking into the actual release Aug 09 15:02:26 but of course we managed to choose a time here on irc when he's offline Aug 09 15:03:10 as for testing, there we'll need a meeting and see if maybe someone else wants to pick that work up Aug 09 15:26:33 btw n900 cant videocall by gsm? Aug 09 15:26:59 pidgin cant able do xmpp video/audio calls? Aug 09 15:27:28 * drathir see old team in action again? Aug 09 15:43:41 drathir: n900 does not have support for gsm video calls Aug 09 15:44:15 drathir: no idea what pidgin support, but I think it has some xmpp audio support (maybe video too) Aug 09 15:46:47 Pali: hi thanks a lot... im mean that maybe will be good not connect with anv service like skype etc, but make direct one by xmpp? Aug 09 15:47:52 google libjingle and xmpp jingle are p2p signaling protocols which could work also without server support... so you can use it also with @gmail.com account Aug 09 15:50:54 just both clients need to support it Aug 09 15:53:35 oh thats interesting... good if no server depend... Aug 09 15:59:45 you need some server support for stun/ice/nat traverse Aug 09 15:59:53 when you are behind nat/firewall Aug 09 16:34:48 Pali: oh sadly true... /me to much on ipv6... Aug 09 17:21:52 hmm, just tried skype video call from my n900 to ubuntu 12.04 (skype v4.3) and it seems to work without problems Aug 09 17:59:41 Does exist FieldTest for N900? Aug 09 18:00:01 I know about netmon. Aug 09 18:00:45 But I am looking for something more advanced Aug 09 20:54:17 I only wish my internet was good enough to react accordingly to what's going on behind the scenes - people sending mails to council like they were thr council's boss, and simply not stating what they actually are at all. @council, pleasedon't get fooled by win7mac telling you stuff about what HE thinks how maemo and council (and HiFo) works Aug 09 20:55:41 again: NOBODY instructs council what to do, except of maemo community as defined (called 'electorate') in council rules Aug 09 20:57:19 and all council activity and negotiations/discussions are generally *in the public* to get reviewed by everybody. No private mails from HiFo to council about how HiFo shall take over and coucil supposed to suurender Aug 09 20:57:55 stop worrying about maemo for a week or two, just enjoy - really :) Aug 09 20:58:05 win7mac has a prwtty fsckd up idea of responsibilities assigned to entities Aug 09 21:00:02 bencoh: do you think it's just a coincidence that such idiotic mails happen when I'm in holiday and supposed to be offline? Aug 09 21:01:53 hmmm Aug 09 21:04:17 I'd put that mail on public tmo thread right away, if only my internet woudn't suck donkeyballs. @council, whomever: please do!!! Aug 09 21:05:42 win7mac outright denies tht ouncil is the highest authority proxy of community and suggests coucil "shall accept rules of the eV" Aug 09 21:06:11 which is so weird I dunno words for it Aug 09 21:08:04 also HiFo always been meant to "handle the assets of maemo" which in my book is a synonym for the cashier role. First Rob tried to redefine HiFo to be uebr-council, now win7mac does Aug 09 21:08:57 DocScrutinizer51: haha he must be smoking some real good shit Aug 09 21:09:07 HiFo is the council's bitch Aug 09 21:09:22 always been Aug 09 21:11:36 but for win7mac reality splits into several parallel universes in which in one I claim that there are TWO councils, and in another one council dissolved when we actually unified it Aug 09 21:13:00 in a third council turned into some fractional entity of HiFo obeying wjatever HiFo board decides Aug 09 21:14:01 and in a fouty parallel universe, all this even makes sense to everybody with a sane mind Aug 09 21:14:40 while I scared away Rob due to me not undertsanding the perfect sense this makes Aug 09 21:16:13 I just notice winUmac being *very* vocal and just 'hijacking' the less experienced novice council members Aug 09 21:16:53 :D Aug 09 21:19:02 I mean, what shit is that to show up on every council meeting and sending mails to council, always 'speaking in stern voice' lile you were the one to decide? Aug 09 21:19:26 while in fact you got no voice at all Aug 09 21:24:50 freemangordon: on my N900 with KP52, CSSU-T, no O/C, I installed the tweaks for 720p videos. Since that day, I have noticed that video playback is bad -- many times N900 just shows the dots with nothing happening. FWIW, I'm not trying to play 720p videos (because i guess that's what really needs O/C). Aug 09 21:25:00 any idea how i can debug what's up? Aug 09 21:29:30 what are those tweaks btw ? Aug 09 21:31:11 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=77695 Aug 09 21:32:05 i probably could just remove .. but would like to find out what's up Aug 09 21:34:51 Sicelo: first up check syslog Aug 09 21:35:15 i saw reference to pulseaudio Aug 09 21:35:54 I see similar issue without any tweaks installed. Syslog often tells sth about 'can't instantiate dsp node' OWTTE Aug 09 21:36:10 PA also a good candidate, yes Aug 09 21:37:20 syslog is your best friend, just a tad verbous at times, with lots of noise and random stuff to ignore Aug 09 21:38:15 ok. tbh, i don't play videos too often, so i've gleft this 'problem' alone for the last couple of months. but now i have a "need" to play videos on my N900 frequentyl Aug 09 21:38:29 s/gleft/left/ Aug 09 21:50:45 after reboot, all plays fine Aug 09 21:53:01 yes, this is a known issue caused by dsp shitting its pants, though I thought that got fixed long ago. PA might cause absolutely same symptoms though Aug 09 21:53:18 Open letter to the new council, topic: Community, Council, Board and the MC eV: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1435370#post1435370 Aug 09 22:13:20 and no, that doesn't come just by coincidence when someone is on holiday, but from RzR's request during last meeting: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclog/%23maemo-meeting.2014-08-05.log.html#t2014-08-05T23:21:10 Aug 09 22:21:57 o the NEW council. WTF? Aug 09 22:25:31 already the headline/subject insinuating that lesson-like tone the complete original amil had, to teach NEW councilors how stuff *really* works, from the lips of a prophet who just signs with his nickname to put the authorization of whole mail into right context Aug 09 22:26:09 it is my POV Aug 09 22:26:22 AHA! Aug 09 22:26:45 sure Aug 09 22:27:17 then why the fuck does it sound like it was from chair of HiFo? Aug 09 22:27:36 no clue? Aug 09 22:27:54 exactly. this is pretty obvious Aug 09 22:28:14 throughout the whole maill Aug 09 22:34:18 I signed with my full name + nick, no idea what "authorization" your speaking of ^^, never intended to speak on HiFos' behalf Aug 09 22:35:21 ...though they very likely agree ;) Aug 09 22:36:59 no, HiFo did NOT agree, even before your time. And you assuming they'd do agree now and writing your mail in a way as if they already did is a pretty rogue approach Aug 09 22:38:24 you rvidently lack lots of well documenteed historic background and compensate that by making up your own version of how the situation allegedly is and was Aug 09 22:39:14 we all appreciate your hard work to make the much needed eV come true Aug 09 22:39:40 but please do"mt try to redefine stuff to your liking Aug 09 22:40:15 looks like no harm intented then ;) Aug 09 22:40:30 -t+d Aug 09 22:40:36 then state your version so that others may make up their own mind and decide what to believe or not Aug 09 22:41:25 ...to my liking... funny... Aug 09 22:42:16 What interest do I have then, in your imagination? Aug 09 22:44:02 irrelevant Aug 09 22:44:23 "d 'my' version is well documented, publicly Aug 09 22:45:11 I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you sentence by sentence, quoting links to original sources Aug 09 22:45:20 more than I already did Aug 09 22:46:51 more on that in roundabout three weeks when I might be back to this mess from my well deserved holiday Aug 09 22:54:11 and the others...? please share your thoughts! Aug 09 23:03:48 maybe the most of 'the others' wait until they heard of more than only your persona POV before they share their thoughts. E.G. council might want to discuss this before answering, and that might happen on other channels than tmo Aug 09 23:10:31 aha, however it fits your liking I guess, but acusing me of acting "behind the scenes"... http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2014-08-09.log.html#t2014-08-09T23:54:17 Aug 09 23:14:37 blablabla Aug 09 23:14:56 Win7Mac: right now I have no time to read the mail in question, probably will do it tomorrow. However, so far my understanding is that you think HiFo is some kind of what Nokia used to be for Maemo council back in the times Nokia supported Maemo. Which is plain wrong, IMO Aug 09 23:16:01 HiFo is the organizational entity to officially represent the community. and that's all (simplified) Aug 09 23:16:42 HiFo is not the council's boss, more like on the opposite Aug 09 23:17:00 ok, and council is? Aug 09 23:17:18 again, IMO. And as you know I am not a lawyer, so I might be wrong as well Aug 09 23:17:31 the council is defined on the maemo wiki Aug 09 23:17:35 iirc Aug 09 23:17:48 sure. and that needs adoption Aug 09 23:18:00 who decided that? Aug 09 23:18:03 and when? Aug 09 23:18:07 says who? Aug 09 23:18:30 ...to reflect the situation?! Aug 09 23:18:45 the only way one can redefine what maemo council is is a referendum, iirc the rules Aug 09 23:18:58 yes Aug 09 23:19:06 well, read the mail first then... Aug 09 23:19:14 in whole... Aug 09 23:19:17 will do tomorrow Aug 09 23:19:24 thanks! Aug 09 23:19:28 but Win7Mac got told about that 3 dozen times already, he ignores it Aug 09 23:19:53 I was just sharing thoughts about what I have heard from you so far Aug 09 23:20:20 * freemangordon is afk for a while Aug 09 23:20:52 DocScrutinizer05, where did I ignore that, I'm actually suggesting a referendum! Aug 09 23:22:13 he first defines "the situation" as he sees it, then demands action from council taken to adoopt rules to match what he thinks is "the situation" and ignores that the council is bound to rules on what it can do Aug 09 23:24:15 yeah a referendum approving your POV to be real and binding for council, and only as a last resort when council isn't willingto simply do rogue and ignore the council rules and follow *your tules* instead Aug 09 23:25:12 * DocScrutinizer51 definitely afk/offine now Aug 09 23:25:41 what's wrong with "- specify council duties so that it remains the major active party of community work AND honours the fact that Nokia got replaced by our own community organization, not only in regards to board" Aug 09 23:30:00 freemangordon: correct, HiFo is not the council's boss, but council, as part of the organization, has to follow organizations' rules Aug 09 23:31:50 well, pretty much everything is wrong in that. I could start with explaining that council's responsibilities are defined and continue with elaborating about nonsense to "replace" Nokia - as freemangordon alrewady said. and so on. But whatt's a real problem with you: you can't accept a 'later please, busy now' Aug 09 23:34:16 you even go to insult people when they refuse to follow your requests instantly Aug 09 23:34:38 we're not your slaves Aug 09 23:35:12 and I'm not available now, particularly for this topic and for you, for the next 3 weeks Aug 09 23:35:16 o/ Aug 09 23:39:53 Win7Mac: the council should follow its own rules, as defined by the community. However, I just read that mail and honestly, I am not sure what stands behind your wish to somehow redefine what is the cashier’s(HiFo) role and what is the executive's(the council) role. HiFo was established as an legal entity to represent the community where and when needed and that's all. It was never meant to be the driving force or to draw the future of the community. thi Aug 09 23:39:55 s is the council's role. IIUC. Keep in mind that I may got confused by that wall of text and missed the idea Aug 09 23:43:32 Win7Mac: And I still don't get it why moving HiFo from USA to Europe should make any difference in the regard on who does what. Aug 09 23:43:52 s/ on / of / Aug 09 23:43:52 freemangordon meant: Win7Mac: And I still don't get it why moving HiFo from USA to Europe should make any difference in the regard of who does what. Aug 09 23:44:26 clearly must not Aug 09 23:44:45 who does what doesn't change Aug 09 23:44:51 ~xy Aug 09 23:44:53 well, xy is The XY problem: You want to do X, but don't know how. You think you can solve it using Y, but don't know how to do that, either. You ask about Y, which is a strange thing to want to do. Just ask about X. Aug 09 23:46:18 and i don't mean to redefine what is the cashier’s(HiFo) role... Aug 09 23:47:02 But I don't see HiFo/MC eV as cashier only, that simply goes too short Aug 09 23:48:15 then you're simply mistakwn Aug 09 23:48:22 :nod: Aug 09 23:49:12 anyway, I am going to have some sleep, will re-read that mail tomorrow with a more rested brain, maybe I will get the whole idea Aug 09 23:49:32 night guys Aug 09 23:49:43 thanks fmg, nite o/ Aug 09 23:50:06 and when you don't beleive me and freemangordon and all the others who told you, ask woody who 'invented' HiFo Aug 09 23:50:17 lets continue this on tmo Aug 09 23:52:37 DocScrutinizer05: no wonder you don't WANT to understand... Aug 09 23:54:37 pleqse stop that nonsense, it's not only bad style, it also heats up the channel temperature Aug 09 23:57:45 and it contributes absolutely ZILCH to resolve this issue which is YOU disagreeing with roundabouteverybody else (not just me) and alsol you ignore HiFo's own blogs, all tmo threads about HiFo and council and even deny to ask your peers in HiFo who most liely also do NOTagree with you onthis Aug 09 23:58:33 likely* Aug 09 23:59:30 "EIN geisterfahrer? HUNDERTE!!" Aug 10 00:21:36 when for some reason you want to change the way maemo community and organizationl entites work, then there's exactly ONE way to push that: start a thread on tmo or even better on ML and and begin with explaining the problem you think you spotted. Then list your ideas how to improve/fix the issue, first things first. And finally ask for (constructive) criticism, create a synthesis from your and other members' contributions and notions and tr Aug 10 00:21:37 y to convince *the community* to support your plan/synthesis. This regularly will result in *council* starting a referendum to fulfill what *community* wants Aug 10 00:25:20 suggesting a referenum to council in a private email doesn't make sense since council would at least need to do the same first 3 steps like I suggested to you above **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Aug 10 02:59:59 2014