**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 06 03:00:00 2014
Nov 06 08:18:01 <sec> sixwheeledbeast: Flashing would be the right way to go then?
Nov 06 08:18:21 <sec> Flashing and then going up for CSSU
Nov 06 08:30:39 <sixwheeledbeast> sec: if you have nothing of value on the device, yes.
Nov 06 08:33:36 <sixwheeledbeast> You could check on the issue with apt first, it could be something simple. Generally you are better with a clean start if you don't need anything.
Nov 06 08:41:07 <sec> No, don't need anything, can easily reflash!
Nov 06 08:43:25 <sixwheeledbeast> ok
Nov 06 08:44:31 <sixwheeledbeast> make sure you have only Nokia and CSSU repos enabled when you upgrade and you should be fine. Let me know if you get stuck again.
Nov 06 08:50:55 <sec> Thanks sixwheeledbeast 
Nov 06 11:34:08 <zGrr> moin :)
Nov 06 14:21:15 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: infobot joined!
Nov 06 20:50:49 <jonwil> timeless: ping
Nov 06 20:50:52 <timeless> pong
Nov 06 20:51:41 <APic> timeless: ping
Nov 06 20:51:46 <timeless> pong
Nov 06 20:51:49 <APic> k
Nov 06 20:52:13 <timeless> APic: fwiw, the pong to jonwil is because we're playing-high-latency-ping-pong
Nov 06 20:52:15 <jonwil> I was told you know something about gecko stuff. Do you have anything useful to contribute to this thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94107&page=3 ?
Nov 06 20:52:29 <APic> timeless: Nice!
Nov 06 20:54:19 <timeless> jonwil: in general, browser-neteal and friends was the way we wanted people to embed gecko at the time
Nov 06 20:54:38 <timeless> (amusingly, at least two of us are now in this office working at a different vendor)
Nov 06 20:55:14 <timeless> jonwil: is the goal to be able to update the gecko for the system?
Nov 06 20:55:25 <jonwil> Yes the goal is to figure out how fesable it is to bring in a newer gecko
Nov 06 20:55:46 <jonwil> The webkit discussion is a "if we cant update Gecko, can use use webkit instead?"
Nov 06 20:55:46 * timeless ponders
Nov 06 20:55:50 * timeless nods
Nov 06 20:56:09 <jonwil> As for browser-neteal, that's great except that Nokia (in its infinite wisdom) never actually published browser-neteal-dev in their SDK...
Nov 06 20:56:40 <timeless> talk to romaxa on moznet
Nov 06 20:56:48 <timeless> 1. he still works on gecko
Nov 06 20:57:59 <jonwil> which channel on moznet do they hang out in?
Nov 06 20:58:23 <timeless> use /whois :)
Nov 06 20:59:14 <timeless> you can message him privately, or perhaps publicly in #mozillians (community) or #developers (core devs)
Nov 06 20:59:26 <timeless> and, i'll give you a freebie, his gender is male :)
Nov 06 20:59:40 <timeless> https://github.com/romaxa
Nov 06 21:00:16 * timeless goes to ask facebook if romaxa still works @nokia
Nov 06 21:00:43 <timeless> well, he works @microsoft
Nov 06 21:00:49 <timeless> (his github account could use an update)
Nov 06 21:03:50 <Luke-Jr> timeless: you mean nokia isn't microsoft now?
Nov 06 21:04:01 <timeless> well, err...
Nov 06 21:04:13 <timeless> technically there is still an entity named Nokia, and he doesn't work for it :)
Nov 06 21:06:01 <Luke-Jr> XD
Nov 06 21:06:08 <jonwil> aha, it was romaxa that updated old code in https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/browser/client-server/ for tablet-browser-daemon and browser-neteal to the shipping Fremantle versions 2 years ago (I believe he wasn't willing to publish more code than that at the time, i.e. actual browser UI stuff). Will point him at the thread and ask if he has anything useful to add
Nov 06 21:06:42 <timeless> היכל נוקיה‎ is amusing
Nov 06 21:07:53 * timeless wonders if that's considered IP / P in terms of the valuation of Nokia Oyj :)
Nov 06 21:14:07 <jonwil> In any case having the source to the browser UI isn't necessary in order to update Gecko (as gecko is isolated from the UI by the dbus interface tablet-browser-daemon exposes), the trickiest part of updating Gecko is going to be finding a way to keep maps, flash and the other browser plugins working
Nov 06 21:26:36 <bencoh> timeless: damnit, I dont have fribidi in irssi :]
Nov 06 21:27:03 <timeless> heh
Nov 06 21:27:12 <jonwil> my chatzilla client just gives me garbage for that line...
Nov 06 21:27:27 <bencoh> jonwil: hebrew
Nov 06 21:27:35 <timeless> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tLhyBlQf
Nov 06 21:27:39 <timeless> there, have a link :)
Nov 06 21:28:15 <timeless> jonwil: if you ask chatzilla to treat the channel as utf8, it would probably show better :)
Nov 06 21:28:59 <jonwil> not sure how I do that...
Nov 06 21:29:18 <timeless> http://www.fifi.org/doc/irssi-gnome/README-HEBREW
Nov 06 21:29:34 <timeless> http://chatzilla.hacksrus.com/faq/#charset
Nov 06 21:29:45 <sixwheeledbeast> It would certainly be useful to fix the portrait UI in MicroB.
Nov 06 21:29:47 <timeless> try /charset utf-8 ?
Nov 06 21:30:31 * timeless try this first actually: /charset
Nov 06 21:30:46 <jonwil> ok, its using urf-8 now
Nov 06 21:31:41 <jonwil> not that I can read hebrew in any case :P
Nov 06 21:33:11 <bencoh> sixwheeledbeast: dont we need to completely rewrite it (since we dont have source) ? 
Nov 06 21:33:23 <timeless> jonwil: ah, but now you can copy the text and google it :)
Nov 06 21:33:25 <sixwheeledbeast> RE?
Nov 06 21:33:54 <bencoh> yeah well, that's roughly the same for a gtk app I think
Nov 06 21:34:29 <jonwil> yeah reverse engineering something as big as microb would probably take longer than simply writing something new that spoke the same external interfaces where it matters
Nov 06 21:34:39 <jonwil> both things would take a LOT of time though :P
Nov 06 21:35:05 <bencoh> I wonder whether it would be longer/harder than writing qmlbrowser
Nov 06 21:35:21 <sixwheeledbeast> Is there a reason QML borwser can't be used as a replacement?
Nov 06 21:36:36 <bencoh> well, it's qt/qml, so ... longer launch delay, bigger memory footprint ... and still a bit slower I think
Nov 06 21:37:00 <sixwheeledbeast> obviously it still needs work but will be a FOSS look a like (similar to worldclock/OMP/Qalender etc etc
Nov 06 21:37:58 <bencoh> oh, and ... since browserd cant just be killed (because of rt-messaging-ui for instance) it means we'd have to browser stack running
Nov 06 21:38:02 <bencoh> both eating memory
Nov 06 21:38:11 <jonwil> It all depends on what the goal is. If the goal is "lets make an alternative browser for Maemo", that's easier than "lets replace the system browser" which is in turn easier than "lets replace the system browser and also lets use the new engine for rtcom-messaging-ui etc)
Nov 06 21:38:12 <bencoh> two* stacks*
Nov 06 21:38:58 <sixwheeledbeast> I think more devs use C over GTK, hence all the rewrites being in Qt?
Nov 06 21:40:49 <sixwheeledbeast> obviously the idea would be to FOSS replacement eventually for FreEmantle, there are many alternative browser options
Nov 06 21:42:05 <bencoh> 22:38 < sixwheeledbeast> I think more devs use C over GTK, hence all the rewrites being in Qt?
Nov 06 21:42:12 <bencoh> huh (missing words) ?
Nov 06 21:42:24 <jonwil> I think the way to go is to move on the "update the engine" thing (including updating it for rtcom-messaging-ui etc) then writing a new replacement UI on top of that later
Nov 06 21:42:33 <jonwil> i.e. replacing the engine is more important than replacing the UI
Nov 06 21:42:35 <sixwheeledbeast> I didn't realise rtcom-messaging-ui needed browserd
Nov 06 21:42:42 <jonwil> yes it does
Nov 06 21:43:17 <sixwheeledbeast> bencoh: no missing words, possibly bad grammar. 
Nov 06 21:45:54 <jonwil> so bringing in a new system browser without also replacing browserd usage in rtcom-messaging-api and the other users of it is stupid, then we need 2 browsers hanging around taking up resources
Nov 06 21:46:33 <bencoh> okay, qmlbrowser is definitely slower than microb
Nov 06 21:47:32 <sixwheeledbeast> qmlbrowser is definitely broken and unfinished at the moment
Nov 06 21:47:52 <bencoh> I didnt try it with latest -devel hildon-components
Nov 06 22:11:50 <Vajb> does anyone play chess game miniature
Nov 07 00:53:14 <jonwil> timeless: Do you know the best time of day/week to get in touch with romaxa?
Nov 07 01:04:35 <Oksana> Vajb: I have seen miniature chess, yes. Long time ago.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 07 03:00:00 2014