**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 28 02:59:58 2014
Nov 28 08:01:03 <Vajb> hey. Is it possible to add group chat to that integrated facebook chat?
Nov 28 11:46:56 <zGrr> moin :)
Nov 28 15:24:34 <Shapeshifter> Well, now it happened. I bought an android :<
Nov 28 15:32:27 <stryngs> ~slay Shapeshifter 
Nov 28 15:32:27 * infobot brandishes Excalibur!  "With this sword, I vanquish thee, Shapeshifter!"  apt lops off Shapeshifter's head.
Nov 28 16:33:47 <stryngs> da heck...
Nov 28 16:33:53 <stryngs> is /home/opt supposed to exist?
Nov 28 16:47:24 <freemangordon> stryngs: I guess yes, I have it here
Nov 28 16:49:07 <stryngs> k
Nov 28 16:49:12 <stryngs> just never noticed it till today
Nov 28 16:49:19 <stryngs> making sure i hadn't messed up =)
Nov 28 22:58:04 <Pali> http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Unix-Veteranen-sammeln-fuer-Debian-ohne-Systemd-2467930.html
Nov 28 22:58:20 <Pali> debian was forked: https://devuan.org/
Nov 28 22:58:25 <Pali> no systemd anymore
Nov 28 23:25:28 <Luke-Jr> woo
Nov 29 00:09:20 <M4rtinK> well, there are already dozens of Debian forks
Nov 29 00:09:29 <M4rtinK> like Ubuntu :)
Nov 29 00:35:46 <Pali> M4rtinK: but there is no fork without systemd
Nov 29 00:38:49 <M4rtinK> Pali: that is a good point
Nov 29 00:39:34 <M4rtinK> Pali: but still, I think all the systemd hate recently is more or less a needless witchhunt
Nov 29 00:40:06 <M4rtinK> Pali: and really dislike how they basically chased away the debian Systemd maintainer
Nov 29 00:41:20 <Pali> M4rtinK: one thing is systemd itself and other is what happened in debian (and with systemd maintainer)
Nov 29 00:42:15 <Pali> and if there is a distribution without systemd I will switch to it
Nov 29 00:42:49 <M4rtinK> any specific things about systemd you don't like ? :)
Nov 29 00:43:37 <Pali> yes, first thing which I do not like is that it is big package of lot of applications which I do not need
Nov 29 00:44:27 <Pali> in package with init daemon there is dhcp server... no thanks I do not need dhcp server on desktop
Nov 29 00:45:21 <Pali> there is udev... again I want to use other netlink based event reciver
Nov 29 00:46:29 <Pali> binary logs in non ACID database... I think that I do not need to comment this stupid idea
Nov 29 00:46:53 <Pali> massive paralelism... ehm... I do not need this on my server
Nov 29 00:52:13 <M4rtinK> indeed, I think some would appreciated it to be split to more packages
Nov 29 00:52:26 <M4rtinK> it is built from quite distinct components anyway
Nov 29 00:53:20 <M4rtinK> hmm, the main package seems to have about 12 MB
Nov 29 00:54:15 <M4rtinK> not small, but at least storage vise not problematic
Nov 29 00:56:37 <M4rtinK> as for the dhcp server, I guess that is probably for containers/VMs ? if you don't have those it would indeed be useless
Nov 29 00:58:22 <M4rtinK> as for udev - that has some serious architectural issues in itself that one can't really blame on systemd (huge event spam when you have a lot of devices, race conditions, etc.)
Nov 29 00:59:08 <M4rtinK> as for the binary logs - works good enough for me so far and I really like the systemd - journald integration
Nov 29 00:59:42 <M4rtinK> so you can do stuff like journalctl -u <unit name> and get log messages from the given unit
Nov 29 00:59:49 <M4rtinK> that is quite the time saver
Nov 29 01:00:30 <Pali> I hate that idea of only one systemd and for everyone
Nov 29 01:00:36 <M4rtinK> but it is not perfect for sure - IIRC when you enable compression, it does not compress whole log database files but individual records
Nov 29 01:00:47 <M4rtinK> so it is not very effective
Nov 29 01:00:48 <Pali> why they are forcing me to use only those systemd components?
Nov 29 01:01:36 <M4rtinK> well, I would not really say they are forcing anyone
Nov 29 01:01:58 <Pali> yes, they force me... lennart want to have systemd everywhere
Nov 29 01:02:02 <M4rtinK> they just have some roadmap in mind and are working towards it
Nov 29 01:02:05 <Pali> he already said that
Nov 29 01:02:25 <Pali> I can understand that they create *stable* API for components and they provide one implementation of each component
Nov 29 01:02:28 <M4rtinK> well, every developer wants his software everywhere
Nov 29 01:02:36 <Pali> not every!
Nov 29 01:03:05 <M4rtinK> or at least that it is widely used - that's kinda why most people are doing it in the first place
Nov 29 01:03:10 <M4rtinK> in my opinion
Nov 29 01:03:47 <M4rtinK> hmm, having an API between the component sounds good
Nov 29 01:04:43 <M4rtinK> BTW, the components all talk over DBUS IIRC, but the API is probably not officially stable
Nov 29 01:05:21 <Wizzup> of course not
Nov 29 01:05:30 <Wizzup> that's part of the political trick
Nov 29 01:05:33 <M4rtinK> of course that means more work for developers
Nov 29 01:05:40 <sixwheeledbeast1> ~uselessd
Nov 29 01:05:44 <Pali> before systemd I was able to use any dhcp server, any http server, any init daemon, any udev-like program (which watch netlink), any other daemon...
Nov 29 01:05:45 <Wizzup> don't document it, make heavy dependencies
Nov 29 01:05:55 <Pali> now with systemd I'm forced to use only one
Nov 29 01:05:59 <Wizzup> result: noone can compete with your ever changing api
Nov 29 01:06:02 <M4rtinK> probably like the internal kernel API - it is not stable on purpose
Nov 29 01:06:05 <sixwheeledbeast1> covers all of the arguement against systemd
Nov 29 01:06:11 <Wizzup> M4rtinK: no,no,no
Nov 29 01:06:17 <Wizzup> that's completely different
Nov 29 01:06:31 <Wizzup> there no competing internal kernel apis, makes no sense
Nov 29 01:06:34 <M4rtinK> sixwheeledbeast1: those are the people rewriting unit files back into init scripts ?
Nov 29 01:06:37 <Wizzup> there are*
Nov 29 01:07:24 <sixwheeledbeast1> ~systemd
Nov 29 01:07:24 <infobot> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced the linux kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or see http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
Nov 29 01:10:36 <M4rtinK> at least uselessd & OpenRC are doing something to demonstrate their case
Nov 29 01:11:31 <M4rtinK> but most of the hate feels kinda like unsubstantiated trolling
Nov 29 01:12:43 <M4rtinK> or outright "we like something because it is not systemd" not "we like something because it does X better than systemd"
Nov 29 01:14:19 <sixwheeledbeast1> boycottsystemd also explains the issues well. I think the issue is not just systemd, more the fact there is no option to run something else. 
Nov 29 01:14:51 <M4rtinK> well I see two options: 1) keep the old thing 2) develop an alternative
Nov 29 01:15:17 <sixwheeledbeast1> I would rather ubuntu stick with upstart myself
Nov 29 01:15:38 <sixwheeledbeast1> It's not like there aren't other init options.
Nov 29 01:17:55 <M4rtinK> sure, but then you have to keep maintaining it
Nov 29 01:18:07 <M4rtinK> as more or less only user
Nov 29 01:18:34 <M4rtinK> and the Canonical CLA might prevent some people from contributing to it
Nov 29 01:29:08 <sixwheeledbeast1> upstart was the way forward before systemd, fedora used upstart for a short period. So would you prefer that systemd took over so everybody contributed to one init system? 
Nov 29 01:30:53 <M4rtinK> IIRC there were talks between the future Systemd devs and the Upstart devs about contributing to Upstart
Nov 29 01:31:04 <M4rtinK> but it was blocked by the canonical CLA
Nov 29 01:31:18 <M4rtinK> so a separate project (systemd) was started
Nov 29 01:31:41 <M4rtinK> BTW, upstart was the init in fedora before systemd IIRC
Nov 29 01:31:54 <M4rtinK> and is till the init used in RHEL6, 7 has systemd
Nov 29 01:38:45 <sixwheeledbeast1> maybe this was to stop upstart becoming upstartd :P
Nov 29 01:41:44 <M4rtinK> BTW, there is a discussion about the system & upstart CLA situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7639714
Nov 29 01:42:35 <M4rtinK> looks like I remembered it correctly :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 29 02:59:59 2014