**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 09 02:59:58 2015 Jun 09 03:44:55 anyone around? Jun 09 05:23:52 moin :) Jun 09 05:34:03 hare Jun 09 05:49:59 o/ Jun 09 11:43:32 Hello. Jun 09 11:44:54 Hi. Jun 09 11:45:10 Is there any chance that Maemo will be ported to the Fairphone?: https://fairphone.com/ Jun 09 11:45:26 I'm thinking of supporting that. Jun 09 11:45:27 what for? Jun 09 11:45:31 O.o Jun 09 11:46:14 which maemo features you like/need? Jun 09 11:48:03 I thinking that it's a prefunded phone, where the development is driven by preörders, so potentially they'd be willing to support libre software operating systems. They seem like an ethical company, but I haven't approached them yet. Jun 09 11:48:36 KotCzarny: I don't know; I haven't used Maemo before but I think I'll prefer it to Android. Jun 09 11:49:32 Although I would like it if I could still run Android applications so that I can still use those from F-Droid. Jun 09 11:49:58 Actually, it's a social enterprise, not a company. Jun 09 11:50:25 So basically founded and driven by social/ethical values. Jun 09 11:51:12 i would prefer more plain linux os Jun 09 11:51:22 KotCzarny: Can I run Maemo with zero proprietary software, including firmware blobs? Jun 09 11:51:26 Oh? Jun 09 11:51:47 i think the phone parts miss openness Jun 09 11:53:38 KotCzarny: What do you mean by plain? You mean like proper GNU+Linux (as opposed to Android), or do you mean desktop-style? If the former, I thought that was Maemo; if the latter, how would you effectively use that on a phone? Jun 09 11:55:06 maemo is deeply hacked desktop system Jun 09 11:56:23 Fairphone's website barely mentions openness or technological freedom such as libre software but I'm going to contact them and ask whether that's something they'd be interested in. Jun 09 11:56:55 Well I like that it's a proper GNU+Linux distro. Jun 09 11:58:42 if its not supported by mainline kernel there will be trouble in keeping it up to date Jun 09 12:00:36 Aah, this is relevant: https://fairphone.com/2013/02/28/mobile-world-congress-2013/ Jun 09 12:00:39 :-) Jun 09 12:01:13 But Maemo isn't mentioned; it appears that they did not consider it. Jun 09 12:01:20 Or even know about it. Jun 09 12:02:11 "There have been positive responses, but several fans have also urged us to look into alternatives: “Please use a different OS!” “Try Ubuntu or Firefox,” and even some hardcore techies asking for BSD and Plan 9 OS (I had to look those up!)." Jun 09 12:02:21 "Although, we stand by our choice of launching our first phone with a rootable Android OS" Jun 09 12:02:36 do you seriously expect them to use maemo ? Jun 09 12:02:46 (or even "know" about it) Jun 09 12:03:04 they mentioned sailfish Jun 09 12:03:08 *shrugs* Jun 09 12:03:22 why would maemo be an option Jun 09 12:03:23 I don't consider Firefox OS any better than Android. Definitely not a complete GNU+Linux system. And Mozilla is very bad these days. I'm glad they chose Android over that. Jun 09 12:03:25 it's hopelessly outdated Jun 09 12:03:28 with no way to fix it Jun 09 12:03:39 but seriously, if they make hardware open and os hackable Jun 09 12:03:48 there is no need to worry Jun 09 12:04:00 community is good at it, if there is a way Jun 09 12:04:14 sailfish received some kind of (tech-savvy) media coverage back in 2013 Jun 09 12:04:21 especially at WMC Jun 09 12:05:15 (and they basically need as many hw adopters as they can get) Jun 09 12:06:48 JamesJRH: anyway, this is just (yet another) "androphone" with some closed single-chip shared-bus modem/cpu design Jun 09 12:08:03 they dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of" Jun 09 12:08:04 “Sailfish OS is the open source Linux […] mobile operating system combining […], the proprietary UI written by Jolla and other third parties components of any licences established by its authors and owners.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS Jun 09 12:08:16 Sailfish OS is definitely not something that I'd support. Jun 09 12:08:35 Not fully libre. Jun 09 12:08:42 no Jun 09 12:08:52 sailfish is definitely not libre :) Jun 09 12:09:50 Apparently Replicant works on the Fairphone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairphone#Replicant Jun 09 12:10:11 could work Jun 09 12:10:56 having replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not always easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs Jun 09 12:11:02 s/always// Jun 09 12:11:04 bencoh meant: having replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs Jun 09 12:12:05 oh and ... Paul Kocialkowski on May 6, 2015 at 11:03 am said: Jun 09 12:12:05 I’m not going to port Replicant to the Fairphone at this point. Jun 09 12:12:10 http://blog.replicant.us/2013/11/fairphone/ Jun 09 12:12:10 12:08:03 < bencoh> they dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of" ← I understand this, but that's why I'm planning to contact them to try to make them realise that technological liberty is another important ethical consideration that they should take onboard. Jun 09 12:14:36 bencoh: Ah, I already have this article open. I should get on and read it. :-) Jun 09 12:14:51 yup Jun 09 12:20:51 That page isn't nearly as long if you ‘Inspect Element’ and delete the div element that has id="comments". :-) Jun 09 12:25:08 JamesJRH, or by pasting this is the url field and hitting enter: javascript:document.getElementById('comments').remove(); Jun 09 12:26:54 add that to bookmarks Jun 09 12:27:00 its called scriptlets Jun 09 12:28:39 I thought it was called bookmarklet Jun 09 12:28:45 also Jun 09 12:28:49 depends Jun 09 12:32:02 JamesJRH: sailfish has a libre core Jun 09 12:34:00 xkr47: Indeed. That looks right but it doesn't seem to do anything. Jun 09 12:34:01 they should just go plain debian or something and make a theme and bunch of apps Jun 09 12:34:10 worked here Jun 09 12:34:24 omg they changed something! Jun 09 12:36:14 KotCzarny: Indeed; this could be very useful as a scriptlet (if I can make it work) because I expect that it'll work on all other WordPress sites, as well as many others too. Jun 09 12:38:34 Wizzup_: I know. So does Mac OS (i.e. Darwin) and many other things. I want the freeïst system that I can get, and for what will be my next phone, this is looking pretty tricky. Jun 09 12:39:27 neomobile is free isn't it Jun 09 12:39:30 (does it still exist) Jun 09 12:39:35 However, they are designing a new Fairphone planned for the end of the year or so, so I'm going to contact them and see what they can do to do better. Jun 09 12:40:13 seperate modem. Jun 09 12:41:13 Wizzup_: I also want the OS to be a proper GNU+Linux system (unlike Android) so this is why I'm interested in Maemo. Jun 09 12:41:33 jolla is gnu+linux Jun 09 12:41:36 maemo is old Jun 09 12:41:41 awfully old Jun 09 12:41:50 (I'm not saying jolla is the best thing ever, I am just clearing some things up) Jun 09 12:41:56 KotCzarny: yes, but it can be updated... Jun 09 12:42:01 That is what some people are doing, as well Jun 09 12:44:31 nemo still exists Jun 09 12:44:58 but it's more like a mer+glacierUI combination these days Jun 09 12:47:20 xkr47: in the long run stuff gets unsupported, so its nice if you can drop new things easily Jun 09 12:50:09 JamesJRH if you always want to apply that, you can use "greasemonkey" plugin that can automatically run scripts like that Jun 09 12:50:43 JamesJRH or you can use firefox "Stylish" plugin and create a CSS rule like #comment { display: none; } Jun 09 12:51:32 xkr47: its not effective Jun 09 12:51:40 ie. you would have to eneable it for * Jun 09 12:54:46 true.. Jun 09 12:59:43 12:41:32 < Wizzup_> jolla is gnu+linux ← GNU+Linux is libre; Jolla is not. Jun 09 13:05:10 xkr47: I finally got it working… sort of. After reading https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/885558 , it turns out that JavaScript URLs have been disable since Firefox 6. However, the workaround is actually to make a bookmarklet anyway: “You need a bookmarklet or an add-on for a workaround.” Jun 09 13:10:05 xkr47: However, it's not trivial to make a bookmark of something I can't access then press Ctrl-D, so I had to read https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/bookmarklets-perform-common-web-page-tasks to find out that I have to drag the URL onto the bookmarks toolbar. Jun 09 13:10:37 hmm,i think they work as a bookmarklets Jun 09 13:12:39 I don't have or want that toolbar to be shown and there doesn't seem to be a way to edit a new bookmark from scratch, but I realise that the same thing works by dragging into the ‘Show All Bookmarks’ window into e.g. the ‘Bookmarks Menu’ section. Jun 09 13:13:07 you can click 'new bookmark' then just enter code Jun 09 13:13:19 cant check the syntax tho, got it on my lappy Jun 09 13:13:24 but definitely working Jun 09 13:16:34 So I now have the bookmarklet in my bookmarks – only thing is, whereas I normally access all bookmarks from the URL bar, the bookmarklet still refuses to be activate from here. I literally have to select it from the bookmarks menu. Oh well, it's probably still a bit quicker than inspecting the page. Jun 09 13:17:07 KotCzarny: I don't see ‘new bookmark’ anywhere in Firefox. Jun 09 13:17:55 open bookmarks Jun 09 13:18:19 Ah! Jun 09 13:18:27 From the context menu! Jun 09 13:18:51 ‘New Bookmark...’ Jun 09 13:24:42 Okay, and if I make a new folder, ‘bookmarklets’, at the top then that'll save them from getting lost in my many, many bookmarks (which, aside from this 1 folder, and tags, I don't organise but just search through the Firefox ‘Awesomebar’). This will now be several times quicker than inspecting element! Thank you xkr47 and KotCzarny! :-) Jun 09 13:30:13 :) Jun 09 13:30:17 ^^ Jun 09 13:30:26 automation to the rescue Jun 09 13:30:32 firefox ftw Jun 09 13:30:45 yeah Jun 09 13:39:21 Ahaa! Nah, scrap that folder idea – I tried setting a keyword, ‘kc’ (standing for ‘kill comments’), and it worked from the Awesomebar! This is now extremely faster than before, taking an insignificant amount of time! Jun 09 13:42:17 I didn't like the folder idea. That was the first bookmark folder that I'd made in years. I simply don't use bookmark folders; I find that I can't organise things as tree structures easily (my filesystem is a mess, btw.). I've deleted the ‘bookmarklets’ folder in favour of a ‘bookmarklet’ tag, instead. Jun 09 13:43:50 they are nice in the bookmark toolbar Jun 09 13:43:59 ie. you can put all youtube links in one folder Jun 09 13:44:16 and ebay links in another, etc Jun 09 13:52:16 KotCzarny: I don't use the toolbar; I access all bookmarks from the Awesomebar by typing and hitting tab. Probably over 90% of my human interface input to my laptops is via the keyboard, followed by the pointing stick which is at least inline with touch-typing, followed by the inductive tablet stylus (my laptop's are ThinkPad X60 Tablets). Jun 09 13:52:52 Anything that can be easily done by only typing, such as tagging and accessing bookmarks, I prefer. Jun 09 13:54:04 I even use a USB ThinkPad keyboard with my Android smartphone via a little USB OTG adaptor cable. Jun 09 13:54:35 trackpoint ftw Jun 09 13:54:40 :-) Jun 09 13:56:51 It's really cool how a little pointer appears on my phone when I move the pointing device. :-) Jun 09 14:31:17 KotCzarny: Also, this is useful if I have my laptop with me but not the USB keyboard: https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=de.onyxbits.remotekeyboard Jun 09 14:32:39 I frequently use USB tethering, so security shouldn't be and issue, though I'd like it if it had a way to restrict access to only the USB tethering network interface. Jun 09 14:32:54 an issue* Jun 09 14:33:31 write to the author? Jun 09 14:34:21 I'll put it on my todo list. Alternatively I could submit a patch; it should be a simple thing to do. Jun 09 14:34:34 he he Jun 09 14:35:04 those 'it should be simple' sometimes require total rewrite Jun 09 14:35:05 ;) Jun 09 14:38:02 It doesn't quite make the USB ThinkPad keyboard redundant, though, because it's lacking a way to capture and transmit pointer movement. This, however, is way beyond my ability and may not even be possible within the Android APIs. USB HID is supported, but for an application to send pointer events to the system without a standard, I expect root access would be required. Jun 09 14:40:28 KotCzarny: No, it should be just a few lines of code. Also, other applications in F-Droid are capable of binding to a specific interface, so if I get stuck I should just find a relevant sample and learn from that. Jun 09 14:42:08 The few lines of code will mostly be for making it optional – if I just wanted to hardcode it in such that it's not even an option, it may be a matter of just changing a single existing line. Jun 09 14:46:50 It currently binds to interface 0.0.0.0 (i.e. any). Changing that to 192.168.42.129, the address that my phone always uses for USB tethering, will cause it to only listen on the tethered network, of which only 1 device (my laptop) is connected. Jun 09 14:57:00 For me at least, WiFi hotspot always listens on 192.168.43.1, so it shouldn't accidently be accessible on WiFi. I.e. it's fixed, not random/dynamic. I don't know for Bluetooth tethering because I don't use it, but I expect that it'll also be fixed to a nonconflicting address. Jun 09 15:13:55 Option-wise, at the bare minimum I could make it allow the user to specify the IP address of the interface, giving 192.168.42.129 as an example in the caption, but it would be preferable to go by interface names and list the current interfaces. Jun 09 15:15:34 I want to learn to write applications for Maemo/Hildon. Jun 09 15:16:00 So anyway, back to what I was saying before. Jun 09 15:16:03 12:03:29 < kerio> with no way to fix it ← Why? Jun 09 15:16:42 james, do you know how to write apps for gtk/qt ? Jun 09 15:17:11 JamesJRH: because it takes a lot of manpower to keep the whole distro up to date Jun 09 15:17:13 I've dabbled, but I need to give it another go. Jun 09 15:17:16 KotCzarny: ^ Jun 09 15:17:35 JamesJRH: not enough people, some fundamental closed stuff that requires old infrastructure Jun 09 15:19:36 L29Ah: I'm not actually that interested in the distro, just the top layer, the interface that the applications require that are specific to touchscreens and phones. I actually want to run NixOS on whatever my next phone will be and package and write touch-based applications for that. Jun 09 15:20:33 you have xorg Jun 09 15:20:42 And I'm not just after touch-based, I'd also like to use it as a normal NixOS desktop when plugged-in to a keyboard and bigger screen. Jun 09 15:20:43 what else are you interested in? Jun 09 15:21:02 maemo has some deep system hacks Jun 09 15:21:21 the gsm part is quite closed unless you bump the kernel and use ofono Jun 09 15:21:31 hmm ? Jun 09 15:22:06 15:20:43 < L29Ah> what else are you interested in? ← Well, when not using as a desktop, I'd like some touch-oriented interfaces including the ability to run Android applications, such as those from F-Droid. Jun 09 15:22:26 so, xorg Jun 09 15:22:57 L29Ah: one could keep cmtspeech with the current cmt driver Jun 09 15:23:04 there's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair Jun 09 15:24:43 but i guess you won't want to run android stuff on an A8 with 256Mb of ram Jun 09 15:25:58 Particularly, a dialer, SMS messenging, an email client (e.g. K-9 Mail), a web browser, a camera application (e.g. Open Camera), OsmAnd, and my application Hexiano. Jun 09 15:27:55 15:23:04 < L29Ah> there's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair ← Yes, but it's emulated rather than native. It should be possible to run Dalvik directly, but I've no idea. Jun 09 15:31:10 what Jun 09 15:31:35 ARM is not a Java machine, you know Jun 09 15:31:42 osmand would be dead slow on n900 Jun 09 15:31:52 * L29Ah misses osmand ._. Jun 09 15:32:05 L29Ah: but ... it's so slow ! Jun 09 15:32:16 even on "modern" android phones Jun 09 15:32:28 osmand on a9 is faster than navit on n900 Jun 09 15:32:56 and osmand can do height lines Jun 09 15:35:12 opengl would be perfect for map stuff Jun 09 15:37:30 An OpenGL renderer for Mapbox Vector Tiles, consisting of a C++ library for OS X and Linux and SDK bindings for iOS and Android. Jun 09 15:37:34 wat mapwat Jun 09 15:37:37 can i haz osm? Jun 09 15:41:36 15:32:05 < bencoh> L29Ah: but ... it's so slow ! 15:32:16 < bencoh> even on "modern" android phones ← I've noticed that OsmAnd has got much faster in the last few months. Jun 09 15:41:50 It was slow on my old LG Optimus 3D, frequently taking over 10s to render the screen, and it was just as slow when I got my Sony Xperia Z1, presumably because it had more pixels, but it has since become a lot faster, I think because it's making better use of the GPU now (hardware accelleration didn't seem to make a difference a while back). Jun 09 15:45:36 15:31:42 < bencoh> osmand would be dead slow on n900 ← Maemo shouldn't have to be confined to the N900; I'd like to run GNU+Linux and Hildon on newer devices such as, potentially, the Fairphone that I mentioned earlier. Jun 09 15:49:32 i always say, good gtk/qt theme, and you wouldnt see much difference Jun 09 15:50:46 15:35:12 < KotCzarny> opengl would be perfect for map stuff ← OsmAnd has an ‘General settings’ option, ‘Use OpenGL rendering’, which nowadays is enabled by default. When I started using OsmAnd a few years ago, I think it either didn't exist yet or was an experimental feature with a caption something like the typical ‘Use at your own risk!’, disabled by default. Jun 09 15:51:36 KotCzarny: Difference to what? Jun 09 15:51:45 difference to maemo Jun 09 15:52:47 Is that all? I'd have thought that multitouch support would require more than just a theme. Jun 09 15:53:23 n900 is singletouch, and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far Jun 09 15:53:41 you can simulate two-touch on singletouch devic3s Jun 09 15:54:00 (not saying it cant, just that it doesnt) Jun 09 15:55:34 and i think newer xorg input library has multitouch support Jun 09 15:55:45 so its up to the applications to use it Jun 09 15:59:32 “frequently taking over 10s” (on both my Optimus 3D and Xperia Z1.) ← Btw., I forgot to say that OsmAnd now renders mostly in under 1 or 2 seconds on my Z1, so 10× quicker than earlier versions. I haven't tried updating on my old phone yet though. Jun 09 15:59:59 Right. :-/ Jun 09 16:01:32 “and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far” ← I didn't realise. So Maemo's UI really isn't much more than a themed desktop application with bigger buttons. :-/ Jun 09 16:03:09 well, it is much more Jun 09 16:03:10 I want to write new mobile applications that use multitouch, and I'm holding back until I settle on a platform that I'm happy to commit time to learning it. Jun 09 16:03:21 but those parts are hardly movable Jun 09 16:03:34 james, read abot lib xi multitouch Jun 09 16:08:45 also, read what is multitouch support in gtk/qt (and maybe some rarer toolkits) Jun 09 16:13:56 Okay, I'd like to form an interface on NixOS that is able to run Hildon, Qt, and Android applications (as well as display a normal desktop environment when connected to a keyboard and monitor). This may seem ambitious, but I have patience for this goal. Jun 09 16:15:07 The question I think boils down to whether I should learn to develop for Hildon or Qt. I use Gnome and Gtk applications more than Qt applications, so maybe I should go with Hildon for mobile and Gtk for desktop applications. Jun 09 16:20:42 hildon uses gtk i think Jun 09 16:20:47 i may be wrong tho Jun 09 16:22:44 KotCzarny: That's what I mean. If I'm using a lot of Gtk software I might as well learn Gtk, and if I'm going to learn Gtk I might as well learn Hildon. Jun 09 16:22:47 ldd mentions glib stuff but no gtk Jun 09 16:23:21 is hildon open source? Jun 09 16:23:39 Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildon Jun 09 16:23:53 GNU LGPL. Jun 09 16:24:08 then just port ubuntu and use hildon port for ubuntu? Jun 09 16:24:54 there is (used to be) a project to for hildon on debian/ubuntu/desktops Jun 09 16:25:11 KotCzarny: To what? Jun 09 16:25:13 l29ah: there is hildongtk+ library Jun 09 16:25:25 james: to your device of choice? Jun 09 16:25:37 I'm going to use NixOS. Jun 09 16:25:53 I'll package Hildon for it, if that's what I decide. Jun 09 16:26:01 Which is seemly likely now. Jun 09 16:26:02 i wonder if it less dead than matchbox Jun 09 16:26:03 see cordia Jun 09 16:26:06 *is Jun 09 16:26:32 oh and ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erf_Dr16Pdo Jun 09 16:27:57 16:26:03 < bencoh> see cordia ← Searching for this doesn't get anywhere. Do you have a link? Jun 09 16:28:20 Oh, the video mentions it. Jun 09 16:51:10 There's quite a bit about multitouch on this blog: https://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/author/carlosg/ Jun 09 16:53:20 gtk 3.4 and later supports multitouch and kinetic scrolling Jun 09 16:57:37 This video is interesting: https://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/2012/01/20/multitouch-is-near/ Jun 09 16:58:43 I like the way that multiple sliders can be adjusted whilst also still being able to move the rectangles. Jun 09 16:59:53 That video's out-of-date, though. I guess that's all standard now in Gtk 3.4 and later. Jun 09 17:01:25 “This turns the multitouch GTK+ branch into a suitable candidate for GTK+ 3.4, […]” ← Okay, so yes. That must have been what happened. Jun 09 17:07:12 Right, I'll mess around with the Gtk demos at some point and see whether I can write a multitouch application in Haskell. From there, I'll think about rewriting Hexiano to be purely-functional, but in the mean time I have ideas for a number of smaller applications that I'll start out with. Jun 09 17:16:30 Okay, so I'm now going to contact Fairphone and see what they say about technological liberty. I hope they can see the importance in fitting it in with their other ethical values. I'm going to persuade them to make sure that their next model will be blob-free and supported by Replicant, as well as them releasing all of the hardware designs that are under their control under an open hardware Jun 09 17:16:36 licence. Jun 09 17:18:44 If they do that then the Fairphone will be my next phone – that's a given – and then I'll start porting NixOS to it and Hildon and Dalvik to NixOS until I have this ultimate system that I'm thinking of. :-) Jun 09 17:23:37 JamesJRH: good luck with that Jun 09 17:23:45 I know someone who works on/at fairphone, iirc Jun 09 17:23:51 JamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway Jun 09 17:23:52 If you want I can also relay some q's Jun 09 18:12:51 17:23:51 < bencoh> JamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway ← I also have a degree of doubt, but they definitely seem the sort of people who care about things, so it's definitely worth asking. It's one of those things where I'll put forward a case, give suggestions, and make a financial pledge, then just hope for the best and move on to something else. Jun 09 18:13:00 It may not have much impact but it's the best that I can do. Jun 09 18:29:25 The financial pledge isn't massive in the overall scheme of things, though it's pretty big to me. I think I'll pledge 100£ + purchase of the next model if they achieve Respects Your Freedom status (https://fsf.org/ryf ), and pledge another 200£ if they meet the open-source hardware definition (http://oshwa.org/definition/ ). Jun 09 18:30:10 And if they publicly /pledge/ to aim for these upfront, then I'm happy to pay my pledges upfront too. Jun 09 18:30:37 Under the condition that they return the money if they fail to meet their pledge. Jun 09 18:32:16 I'm a big supporter of prerelease funding models, in this case that's also predevelopment. Jun 09 18:40:44 17:23:51 < Wizzup_> If you want I can also relay some q's ← Yes please, that would be very helpful! I really hope that they can coöperate with other ethical values – I find it very disappointing when various ethical people ignore the ethical values of other ethical people! Jun 09 18:41:43 I'm trying really hard to combine environmental sustainabilty, libre software, open-source hardware, decentralisation (e.g. peer-to-peer, self-hosting, etc.), functional programming, and a couple of other things, into 1 coherent system. Jun 09 18:43:00 Wizzup_: So anything that increases the chances of making progress in this respect is much appreciated. Jun 09 18:43:13 james, what about neo900? its also not a bad idea Jun 09 18:43:20 wow, much ethical Jun 09 18:48:10 KotCzarny: I have already had a lot of discussion in #neo900. I found out about it last week and was disappointed when I excitedly shared the finding with another channel, of which a couple of members shot it down for requiring blobs. I don't think that the Neo900 is currently on track for RYF, and definitely not for the OSH definition, but maybe something will change. Jun 09 18:48:17 L29Ah: :-D Jun 09 18:48:41 james, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs? Jun 09 18:49:19 neo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical! Jun 09 18:49:52 then google 9 dollar arm machine Jun 09 18:50:01 i can't buy it cheaper than $29 Jun 09 18:50:16 yet they advertise it being $9; 100% unethical Jun 09 18:50:27 hehe Jun 09 18:50:36 still, that's what google knows Jun 09 18:54:48 18:48:41 < KotCzarny> james, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs? ← I actually prefer it if blobs are held by the operating system and loaded, optionally, at runtime rather than embedded in the chip – it offers more potential for controlling the chip and writing a libre replacement firmware. Jun 09 18:56:06 However, what really bothers me about the issue is that if people who are to some degree ethical are working against each other then this is very bad, so I'm going to keep looking out for ways to pull things together. Jun 09 18:56:50 the only way would be starting own chip company Jun 09 18:57:17 its costly tho (resources, patents) Jun 09 18:59:58 18:49:19 < L29Ah> neo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical! ← The price makes it all the much more difficult to justify the lack of support for RYF and such. Though if they could gain the support of FSF supporters then they'd probably be able to plan for a higher quantity and reduce the price. Jun 09 19:02:18 I know people who don't use a phone at all because there are any that are fully libre. The first phone to achieve RYF certification could get quite a lot of sales. Jun 09 19:03:09 are their pants libre? Jun 09 19:06:20 L29Ah: Probably. They're pretty religious libre supporters. I don't mind that; I just don't like it when they see the world in black and white and disregard the efforts of projects that aren't perfectly aligned with their views. Jun 09 19:07:47 I want to see more coöperation between ethical communities. Jun 09 19:10:15 first you would have to take money out of the project Jun 09 19:10:52 I think the FSF community is particularly bad at coöperation actually. I share the same goals as them but I have no faith in their strategic abilities. As a result, I've seeked an alternative, I prefer to support the Software Freedom Conservancy rather than the FSF. Jun 09 19:12:24 And I've been in #conservancy since FOSDEM this year where I met Karen Sandler. Jun 09 19:12:34 KotCzarny: I don't know what you mean? Jun 09 19:15:54 it wouldnt earn the money Jun 09 19:24:47 L29Ah: Btw., my current project to combine those qualities is looking on track to get going within the next few weeks: Self-hosted website using a Haskell webserver running on NixOS GNU+Linux running on a BeagleBone Black running from my flat which is powered by renewable energy from Ecotricity, and it'll be served over a landline from Andrews & Arnold Ltd., a little ISP that respects digital Jun 09 19:24:54 rights. Jun 09 19:27:21 I also plan to loadbalance with a clone system at may parents' house and failover to the cell network if both landlines happen to fail simultaneously. Jun 09 19:28:16 JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay) Jun 09 19:31:13 why haskel and not apache? Jun 09 19:32:43 Also, 4G has just arrived here and it has faster upload capacity in my flat (~25Mb/s) than premium FTTC in here in Britain (20Mb/s maximum). FTTC isn't even yet available at my flat, though I think that it's planned for this year so it is likely to be here before I get any significant load. Jun 09 19:33:02 why apache and not nginx? Jun 09 19:34:00 nginx could also work Jun 09 19:34:07 both are tested and tried Jun 09 19:36:31 19:31:13 < KotCzarny> why haskel and not apache? ← Because functional programming is important for the future, so I'm not accepting any chicken–egg bullshit wrt. to its adoption. I'm just going to use functional programming and wait for others to catch-up. Jun 09 19:37:54 you would have to make functional machines first then Jun 09 19:38:07 or you are going to invent functional assembler too? Jun 09 19:38:28 1 step at a time. ;-) Jun 09 19:38:35 c is there for a reason Jun 09 19:38:41 there were many languages Jun 09 19:40:10 For me though, that's not something I'm interested in. My next step will be using a Haskell shell and the Haskell text editor Yi Editor, when they're ready. Jun 09 19:40:43 haskell is poorly suited for shell tasks Jun 09 19:40:52 and yi is quite ready to be used as vi Jun 09 19:41:21 and if you don't write the functionality you need, no one will Jun 09 19:42:22 Yes, I'm willing to do that. This'll be a big part of my life eventually. Jun 09 19:45:39 19:40:43 < L29Ah> haskell is poorly suited for shell tasks ← There is much research about this and some interesting concepts. It may not be ready currently; the question is whether it can be less poorly suited to shell tasks than Bash, which is what I currently use. If it passes that threshold, I'll switch when I get time. Jun 09 19:51:04 There are a number of shell utilities that I want to rewrite because I basically have to consult the manpage every time I use them, which takes time. grep, find, and xargs are examples, and I often find myself consulting the Bash manpage as well. I've been using these tools for years yet I still need to lookup the manpages for things that seem like they should be simpler. Jun 09 19:51:25 lol Jun 09 19:51:28 install windows Jun 09 19:51:31 james, dont Jun 09 19:52:00 i don't get how anything might be simpler than the existing utils + zsh completion Jun 09 19:52:13 easier, i mean Jun 09 19:52:58 Like to use extended POSIX regular expressions with find, I need to pass this clobber: -regextype posix-extended -regex Jun 09 19:55:31 And find options are vastly different to grep options, 2 tools which are complimentary for searching for stuff, and then there's shell globbing which is entirely different from regex altogether. Jun 09 19:59:24 With shell scripting I'm thinking too much about how to avoid side-effect bugs, and it's generally quite verbose, but unlike how verbosity can make things easier to understand or learn, this doesn't seem to be the case for sh-style shell scripts. Jun 09 20:00:50 Using a Haskell shell is probably already beneficial for me, right now. I just need to get round to trying it out and learning it. Jun 09 20:03:43 19:51:31 < KotCzarny> james, dont ← Heh, don't worry; I'm not planning to. It would be quite an odd thing to suddenly go from supporting and trying to progress libre software, to then go and install Windows. :-) Jun 09 20:12:58 19:28:16 < Wizzup_> JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay) ← I'm very busy tomorrow – a friend is doing an art exhibition of his life's work and in the evening I have a LUG to go to. I'll get back to you soon though. Jun 09 20:16:48 However, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investing phone matters now to get a sense of direction with my plans and to get things in the pipeline. Jun 09 20:24:27 s/investing/investigating/ Jun 09 20:24:27 JamesJRH meant: However, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investigating phone matte... Jun 09 20:37:49 L29Ah, KotCzarny, Wizzup_: Anyway, when I have my website up, I'll start publishing loads of good stuff. It'll be at http://jrhaigh.uk/ , but that's currently just a holding page with a short description. It'll document some of the things I've touched on in far more detail, and to begin with will probably be mostly oriented around the BeagleBone Black, NixOS, and the whole project around the Jun 09 20:39:10 website itself, but will eventually return to some topics that haven't received so much of my attention for a while, such as sustainable transport or peer-to-peer technology. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 10 02:59:59 2015