**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 05 02:59:58 2015 Sep 05 03:00:13 ~sb Sep 05 03:00:13 [scratchbox] a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB Sep 05 03:00:28 == http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/2nd_edition/ Sep 05 03:02:29 and in ~flashing wiki you find all the info you need, basically Sep 05 03:03:13 (So what is the diff between...) simply look at the filenames, it's almost obvious Sep 05 03:03:24 SCANDINAVIA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin Sep 05 03:03:33 SEAP_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin, Sep 05 03:03:45 CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin Sep 05 03:04:03 IBERIA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin, Sep 05 03:04:18 DocScrutinizer05: Woo! Sep 05 03:04:46 I just made the thread post. Is it pretty much just language? Sep 05 03:06:23 DocScrutinizer05: Does installing one over the other screw up stuff or miss stuff, etc, etc, etc...? Sep 05 03:10:03 DocScrutinizer05: You say 1.3.1 comes with CSSU. Do I understand that you meant: Sep 05 03:10:13 - CSSU will do the same updates Sep 05 03:10:21 - 1.3.1 Actually HAS CSSU? Sep 05 03:10:26 Which of the two? =) Sep 05 03:10:30 no, pretty much just which songs come with it I guess Sep 05 03:11:13 And I say 1.3.1 comes with *one* update that CSSU shipped before 1.3.1 came out Sep 05 03:11:52 that's why CSSU asks for *either* 1.3 *or* 1.3.1, doesn't make a difference Sep 05 03:11:58 Copy that Sep 05 03:12:17 DocScrutinizer05: Ok, I can proceed with my work then. You're being VERY helpful with this and it is much appreciated! Sep 05 03:12:26 yw Sep 05 03:12:30 I'm converting the stock deb list to a CSV and will upload shortly Sep 05 03:20:16 let's see if there's more in the backscroll I could comment Sep 05 03:21:27 [2015-09-05 Sat 03:04:46] Interesting. No more ability to get the original software from Nokia I see Sep 05 03:21:28 [2015-09-05 Sat 03:05:55] 2015-09-04 21:05:47 ERROR 404: Not Found. Sep 05 03:21:30 incorrect Sep 05 03:22:19 [2015-09-05 Sat 02:14:25] fixed Sep 05 03:29:03 Yeah, I caught the link DocScrutinizer05 Sep 05 03:29:28 DocScrutinizer05: I mentioned that because I'm all about "trust", and though much trust goes into inheritance, for "this, whatever it is" to "work", trust must be involved. Sep 05 03:29:42 DocScrutinizer05: But, i was able to pull 1.3.1 from nokia domain Sep 05 03:30:26 Holy crap 1742 .debs by default Sep 05 03:30:27 wtf. Sep 05 03:30:56 for trust issues I added md5sum check Sep 05 03:32:24 DocScrutinizer05: yep, I saw that; it's how I do things too =) Sep 05 03:32:33 DocScrutinizer05: I think u and me see eye to eye on this stuff. Sep 05 03:32:37 DocScrutinizer05: Excited to work with you Sep 05 03:32:58 which has the 'funny' side effect that my script refuses to flash VANILLA patches for partition size Sep 05 03:54:27 anyway what the script *really* does is to make sure the needed files are available and then trigger the second flashing process (of vanilla) right after the first (COMBINED) ended, so it kicks in just in time to stop the device from booting. Which is highly important since when you let it boot for 0.5s into linux and then reboot it to flash VANILLA, it's borked Sep 05 03:54:40 ...and you can start all over again Sep 05 03:56:02 that's why the "foolproof procedure" in "flashing the firmware" wiki sugests to do a triple flashing combined, vanilla, combined, and to take out battery Sep 05 04:03:28 DocScrutinizer05: Interesting. I do Vanilla, remove bat, then combined. Never had an issue before =) ofc, I'm rdy and watching when it flashes Sep 05 04:20:51 when your rootfs system is borked, the softupd can't work and thus vanilla flashing can't work Sep 05 04:21:16 thus in that pathological case you *need* to flash COMBINED first Sep 05 04:22:05 COMBINED gets flashed by NOLO bootloader, VANILLA "flashing" is actually a job done in linux Sep 05 04:24:02 http://paste.opensuse.org/43021802 aaaaand BINGO, guess I bought me a reboot Sep 05 04:25:34 Way ahead of ya DocScrutinizer05 =) Sep 05 04:28:01 well, it's known that VANILLA "flashing" can't get terminated except by shutting down the system hard (or possibly by parameter -R and completing the flashhing process, never tested that) Sep 05 04:28:20 so yeah, I had to shut down a device which pretended to be dead Sep 05 04:28:45 exactly what happens with flashing VANILLA Sep 05 04:30:20 DocScrutinizer05: I'm almost done with this CSV. I'm using plaintext files for "trust" factors. Sep 05 04:30:26 at least that's what I seem to recall. Not 100% sure if it's actually softupd daemon that does VANILLA flashing Sep 05 04:30:36 DocScrutinizer05: I simply pull the battery, it works for me Sep 05 04:30:41 sure Sep 05 04:30:56 DocScrutinizer05: There have been cases, where i've had to do the triple flash, but those are rare now. Sep 05 04:32:31 funny: when I pressed power button first time, the indicator light started shining white and steady. 8s pressing power button then made NOKIA bootloader kick in and device shuts *down* Sep 05 04:33:16 all this stuff is *very* obscure and undocumented for maemo Sep 05 04:33:16 Ah, yeah, I go for the throat; Never trusted the power down method for flashing Sep 05 04:33:19 I figure it's all the same Sep 05 04:33:34 DocScrutinizer05: That's why I want a "new method" for the future =) Sep 05 04:33:50 DocScrutinizer05: And if I can help be a part of something that gives back, then I've done my part. Sep 05 04:33:56 new method of flashing? good luck Sep 05 04:34:20 DocScrutinizer05: Not flashing, but "Base Image" for maemo Sep 05 04:34:24 DocScrutinizer05: The proposal Sep 05 04:34:40 DocScrutinizer05: It'll be documented, from start to finish 100%. Already have a nice outline Sep 05 04:35:19 I don't see how to document the very beginning: the flashing process in NOLO and softupd Sep 05 04:35:24 DocScrutinizer05: http://termbin.com/kofx Sep 05 04:35:28 DocScrutinizer05: That's how we do it Sep 05 04:35:41 DocScrutinizer05: Keep in mind, that's pwnphone methodology, but it can be applied towards Maemo as a whole. Sep 05 04:35:59 DocScrutinizer05: And I say pwnphone, but it's not even pwnphone anymore, pwnieexpress stopped supporting the n900 Sep 05 04:36:03 sorry, too tired to look into that now Sep 05 04:36:04 DocScrutinizer05: It's nameless =) Sep 05 04:36:07 DocScrutinizer05: NO worries Sep 05 04:36:25 DocScrutinizer05: check it out when ya can, throughouly documented from start to finish Sep 05 04:36:44 aha. So they RE'd NOLO or what? Sep 05 04:37:16 Well, it was an attempt to make a true "Walkthrough" for those who have ZERO n900 experience Sep 05 04:37:32 ooh, THAT kind of "docs" Sep 05 04:37:45 DocScrutinizer05: Thus far, it has good reviews. The plan is to take those directions, and apply them towards a more uniform user experience, not just a pwnphone style methodology Sep 05 04:39:44 I thought about docs like you can find in 0xFFFF and http://www.omappedia.org/wiki/Bootloader_Project and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465 Sep 05 04:40:20 DocScrutinizer05: Ah, yeah, nothing like that =) Not trying to make heads explore Sep 05 04:40:23 DocScrutinizer05: Ah, yeah, nothing like that =) Not trying to make heads explode Sep 05 04:46:58 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=17665 Sep 05 04:47:38 ~l1_2 Sep 05 04:47:46 hmm Sep 05 04:50:08 https://www.google.de/search?q=Nokia_N900_RX-51_Service_Manual_Service_Level_1_2.pdf http://directoriopt.com/read/?file=http://directoriopt.com/donld/tYXZLT/nokia-n900-rx-51-service-manual-service-level-3-4.pdf Sep 05 04:52:41 sorry, forget the latter, it's nagware shit Sep 05 04:53:09 =) Sep 05 04:55:15 http://www.cpkb.org/wiki/Nokia_N900_service_manual_and_schematic_download Sep 05 04:55:23 was legit once Sep 05 04:55:38 L3_4 is really great doc Sep 05 04:56:23 DocScrutinizer05: How long u been playing the n900 game? Sep 05 04:56:33 DocScrutinizer05: I know your the "reason" for neo900, yea? Sep 05 04:56:45 hmm? Sep 05 04:58:39 dang, seems the public sources for L3_4 are ... dried Sep 05 04:58:55 ping me if you can't find it Sep 05 05:02:21 Woo! http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1481135&posted=1#post1481135 First vote has been called for, check it out! Sep 05 05:02:32 DocScrutinizer05: The most recent post contains the package CSV file Sep 05 05:43:54 Alright, WORN the heck out, headed off to sleep. For those interested, check out the CSV and apply your thoughts as you see fit =) http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1481123#post1481123 Sep 05 06:01:05 yawn Sep 05 06:01:09 'morning Sep 05 06:01:39 yeah, everything needed for boot goes to /, non-boot important packages to /usr Sep 05 06:02:31 will probably require updating some debs? Sep 05 06:03:57 and maybe changing optifier in installer to stop or check how much stuff goes to / just in case of bad packages Sep 05 06:04:11 and maybe bindmounting /opt into /usr Sep 05 06:05:42 stryngs: this is what i remove personally (might be bit too much tho): http://wiki.maemo.org/Slimming_OS Sep 05 06:12:14 What's the recommended app for youtube these days? Sep 05 06:12:22 cutetube2 Sep 05 06:12:57 in extras-devel I assume? Sep 05 06:13:04 most likely Sep 05 06:13:30 also is there any way to get ham to stop complaining about the nokia repos that were killed? Sep 05 06:13:42 ~maemo-repos Sep 05 06:13:42 methinks maemo-repos is http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories Sep 05 06:13:57 also install cssu and use speedyham Sep 05 06:13:59 ~speedyham Sep 05 06:14:00 [speedyham] 30 times faster than HAM http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-devel/pool/free/h/hildon-application-manager/hildon-application-manager_2.2.73-2_armel.deb Sep 05 06:14:07 I've got cssu Sep 05 06:14:20 is speedyham okay these days? Sep 05 06:14:25 wasnt it? Sep 05 06:14:31 it was fap that had problem Sep 05 06:14:33 ~fap Sep 05 06:14:33 extra, extra, read all about it, fap is good Sep 05 06:14:37 hum Sep 05 06:14:38 ~fam Sep 05 06:14:39 from memory, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU), or actually for anything since ~speedyHAM. It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. In short, it's been identified as source of system corruption and thus deprecated, or see ~hamvsfam Sep 05 06:14:42 ah Sep 05 06:14:49 I was probably mixing them up then Sep 05 07:39:28 * Maxdamantus is buying a new battery. Sep 05 07:40:00 Last Measured Discharge: 949 mAh Sep 05 07:43:27 me is buying second n900 Sep 05 09:13:04 hmm https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/09/04/improving-security-for-bugzilla/ not as important for our bugzilla but interesting attack route. Sep 05 09:48:00 KotCzarny: you've found one? happy for you. i wouldn't mind a third one Sep 05 09:48:33 sicelo: finding isnt a problem, getting my a** to actually buy it is in my case Sep 05 09:48:42 my 2nd N900 cost me only US$15 :) Sep 05 09:48:50 w00t Sep 05 09:49:33 of course it was broken, no usb, and no battery .. but i knew i could trust the guy, and took the jump. now it's even in better condition than my main N900 :) Sep 05 09:51:00 only money spent was usb port, flux, solder wick. the rest of the "investment" was just time Sep 05 09:51:12 well, this one i'm getting for ~50usd Sep 05 09:51:22 BUY IT FFS Sep 05 09:51:23 swedish version Sep 05 09:51:23 :D Sep 05 09:51:31 no problems otherwise Sep 05 09:51:41 what's delaying you? Sep 05 09:51:54 the guy has to send me the bank account number Sep 05 09:52:05 woke him this morning, he he Sep 05 09:52:14 :) Sep 05 09:52:23 best wishes man Sep 05 09:52:38 yeah, he seems ok Sep 05 09:53:17 can never go wrong with N900. i wouldn't mind getting an N9, but it's one i'd never get more than 1 of. but for N900 can buy as many as i can find and afford Sep 05 09:53:30 it will be my battlefield unit Sep 05 09:53:36 anyway, bbl Sep 05 09:53:48 Maxdamantus: that battery .. how long it lasts you now? Sep 05 09:57:41 Sicelo: probably 20 hours or so. Sep 05 09:58:02 I don't usually do anything crazy on it. Sep 05 10:04:45 stryngs: took a brief look to your list of packages. This is just me maybe but should we let the Adobe Flash die off already? :D is it really required anymore when major website are moving towards alternatives mainly HTML5 and such? Sep 05 10:05:17 *typos Sep 05 10:12:03 Maxdamantus: my batteries are roughly at that same capacity Sep 05 10:12:21 Regarding the / vs. /opt thing .. I just have pretty much everything on a single ext3. Sep 05 10:12:44 the ubifs is used as a sort of writable initramfs. Sep 05 10:13:42 so it has the modules for the kernels I might want to use, and a script to load the ones required to continue booting with the ext3 partition. Sep 05 10:15:38 The root of that ext3 isn't even a root filesystem: it's actually /home and also contains maemo5-root, debian-armel-root, shr-root (haven't tried that recently), opt and nix Sep 05 10:16:19 also, the fat32 on ~/MyDocs is a really bad idea. Sep 05 10:17:17 iirc, the OS doesn't make sure the filesystem is unmounted before making it visible through g_file_storage Sep 05 10:17:50 So it'd be pretty easy to accidentally have it mounted (rw) on two systems. Sep 05 10:18:02 it does ensure that Sep 05 10:18:46 btw, did you document your setup somewhere? :) Sep 05 10:19:29 Not really. I think I posted my hacky init script here a while ago. Sep 05 10:19:57 Are you sure it ensures that? I'm pretty sure at least it doesn't wait for you to interact with the dialogue that pops up. Sep 05 10:20:22 it waits. at least both my N900 do. Sep 05 10:20:50 Also related: the mmc module suddenly removing access to the SD card when the backcover is removed is also a really bad idea. Sep 05 10:21:14 it's like the opposite of "safely remove hardware" Sep 05 10:21:34 i believe it also unmounts it properly for backcover too :) Sep 05 10:21:42 I'm certain that it doesn't. Sep 05 10:22:04 I've modified the module. It completely blocks all access to it when it sees the GPIO status change. Sep 05 10:22:25 hmm, weird Sep 05 10:22:29 The kernel can't even force remount it read-only (as in sysrq u) Sep 05 10:26:55 Though the OS does unmount it itself, it only gets to remove it from the tree. It can't do a clean unmount. Sep 05 10:27:59 ok. i was just now thinking about what a computer would do on forcible removal of a usb stick Sep 05 10:31:56 Linux itself doesn't do much, but you can detect such a removal from userspace and try to unmount it, which just removes it from the tree. Sep 05 10:33:07 otherwise it'll stay mounted and you might get IO errors or something occasionally, depending on the filesystem. Sep 05 10:41:18 what's the reasoning behind cutting off the microsd, again? Sep 05 10:41:25 i thought it was hardware controlled tbh Sep 05 10:41:54 Not sure, but it's not hardware-controlled. Sep 05 10:42:26 I changed a line in the module to keep it visible, so I can keep accessing it while the backcover is open. Sep 05 10:43:30 Though apparently the logic to handle removing the card is also meant to be under that state, so I can't physically remove the card and use the slot again without reloading the module. Sep 05 10:43:42 would probably need a few more changes. Sep 05 11:51:16 Was it possible to change your username at Maemo.org? I think its bit confusing that everywhere else I go by Ras_Older but there I had a brainfart back in the day and used my old nick :D Sep 05 11:56:30 Apparently by dropping an email to techstaff. Sep 05 12:31:32 which package or config would cause N900 to "wake" up even when lockscreen was active? Sep 05 12:37:48 sorry .. wake up when camera door gets opened ... which package or config is responsible? Sep 05 12:38:13 maybe camera one Sep 05 12:38:30 would be logical Sep 05 12:40:22 iirc the camera-ui part does that Sep 05 12:47:59 main N900 doesn't have this, but 2nd one does. I want to disable it Sep 05 12:48:35 tried to look in dbus .. didn't see anything Sep 05 12:49:51 sniff dbus and see what sends unlock msg? Sep 05 12:49:55 (via ssh) Sep 05 12:53:36 that's what i did. will redo Sep 05 12:54:11 ah .. was checking wrong bus Sep 05 12:57:41 https://paste.debian.net/310473/ Sep 05 12:58:23 not sure what's sending the unlock .. other N900 has exactly the same, except the tklock Sep 05 12:58:45 google time Sep 05 13:06:13 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45883 someone once had same problem. but no one explained the "why" Sep 05 13:15:33 Sicelo: /apps/camera/settings/extra-settings/disable-show-on-lenscover-open Sep 05 13:15:35 in gconf Sep 05 13:18:21 thanks. let me check. thought i'd checked gconf too Sep 05 13:19:04 hmm, so it's an "extra" key :) will add Sep 05 13:19:45 i see now that my ohter N900 does have it. thanks merlin1991 Sep 05 14:01:07 Does anyone else have issues with yappari lately? For me it's quite unstable. Sep 05 14:36:28 KotCzarny: imho, optifier should be reduced to nothing more than a dummy package; Assuming we get everyone on board with FHS or bindmounting. Sep 05 14:36:54 KotCzarny: I'm all about redoing the .debs. I've already built a script to decompress them; would be hard to modify it to automate the whole process. Sep 05 14:37:19 KotCzarny: I've notated your Slimming_OS post and will check it out here in a bit. Sep 05 14:37:31 Ps... Reading scrollback =) Sep 05 14:39:19 KotCzarny: Yeah, my thoughts are to incorporate CSSU by default and speedyham to replace ham. Just haven't made that list just yet. Trying to keep the paths seperate until they're ready for convergance Sep 05 14:41:50 Ras_Older: I'm okay with murdering off of adobe flash. Some of those packages I wanted to REMOVE, but wasn't sure if they could be added back in. afaik, there are some .debs that ONLY exist in the binary image and aren't hosted. I figured flash might be one of em. Either way, if we can re-get flash, it's a definite "should be gone" from baseline. Sep 05 14:42:46 Maxdamantus: Ah, so you have done some Filesystem hacks I see =) Do you have a write-up somewhere of what you did, what it accomplished, and how you did it? Sep 05 14:43:57 Maxdamantus: Per Nokia, removing backcover; it SAFELY powers it down. Granted, this is from Nokia, but they wouldnt have it in writing if it wasn't true, imho. Sep 05 14:44:43 Ras_Older: Talk to warfare for namechanges, he's one of the maemo.org folks. Sep 05 14:45:51 Alright, be back a bit later. Catching traction with "unification" idea! =) CSV has been updated on first post with Ras_Older's votes. Sep 05 14:58:42 stryngs: Why not use "dpkg --root=foo" instead of manual decompressing? (I may have missed some context that was stated earlier) Sep 05 14:59:45 AFAICT, it was designed for this purpose (installing debs on a mounted root filesystem). Sep 05 16:00:55 Vajb: unstable in what way? Sep 05 16:04:39 * Ras_Older is really waiting for Cyber Security & ICT expo held in Finland, Jyväskylä 23.9 to 25.9 ^^ Sep 05 16:33:25 Vajb: unstable in what way? Sep 05 16:33:47 sorry for that .. mistake Sep 05 16:34:35 unstable as it aborts or segfaults often Sep 05 16:34:59 terminate called after throwing an instance of 'ProtocolException*' Sep 05 16:34:59 Aborted Sep 05 16:35:13 last two lines and then it crashes Sep 05 16:35:13 ok. does that for me too, not that pervious one was any better .. i was getting same thing Sep 05 16:35:21 *previous Sep 05 16:35:33 yes same problem with previous Sep 05 16:36:11 i removed one group conversation since it was always mentioned near crash time, but didn't help Sep 05 16:38:27 i'm not even in any groups Sep 05 16:43:35 hopefully ceene is working for a fix :) Sep 05 16:51:45 (( I've modified the module. It completely blocks all access to it when it sees the GPIO status change.)) useless, since the module itslf actually cuts VDD for the uSD card when battery lid opened Sep 05 17:00:02 iirc it does a lazy-umount (or somesuch), and then cuts the the power to uSD card, so it won't get damaged - or device getting damaged - when removing the card and inserting another one Sep 05 17:02:50 in Neo900 we slightly modified the concept, so it has a switch in card tray itself that signals "tray closed". Nevertheless we keep the magnet switch to detect battery lid removal, for whatever purposes (e.g. `sync; sync`) We also changed the red "privacy LED" in camera to a RGB type to signal different states like "uSD unmounted and safe to remove now" rtc Sep 05 17:03:19 #s/rst/etc/ Sep 05 17:37:46 ZetaR: What purpose would the dpkg --root=foo do? Not following Sep 05 17:40:01 installs to foo instead of / Sep 05 17:40:10 most likely Sep 05 17:43:10 Yes. It is similar to using chroot, but it uses dpkg from / rather than from the new root (IIRC). Sep 05 17:44:01 I am not sure how/why you are decompressing the debs some other way though, since I missed the context for your statement about it. Sep 05 17:44:53 anyone here in a hackerspace with spacenet? :P Sep 05 17:45:07 trying to get my N800 to connect to it, to no avail Sep 05 17:50:14 buzz: did you try oscp yet? Sep 05 17:51:04 no, i havent put any music on it yet :P Sep 05 17:51:16 it works with internet streams too Sep 05 17:51:17 :P Sep 05 17:52:39 ZetaR: That doesn't work for apt-get purposes though Sep 05 17:53:20 stryngs: What is the context/use here? Sep 05 17:53:43 but i'd rather go on wifi here @ hackerspace :P Sep 05 17:54:09 You have local deb files, and are trying to install them? Sep 05 17:54:15 ZetaR: I'm not sure, you kinda lost me when you wrote of dpkg --root=foo. Not sure where you're going with it. Sep 05 17:54:33 zetar: he tries to get rid of optification and few other things Sep 05 17:54:35 ZetaR: It's a neat use of dpkg, but I want a more world-scope plan, not a local hack. Sep 05 17:55:05 KotCzarny: Oh, I murdered off optification. What I'm curious now of though, is FHS or bindmounting... Sep 05 17:55:10 Ahh, okay, so you are repackaging debs to remove optification? Sep 05 17:55:14 does apt have option that gets added to every dpkg command? Sep 05 17:55:27 ZetaR: Not at all. I just use a naked pymaemo-optify .deb Sep 05 17:55:38 ZetaR: A deb is a deb is a deb. You ever built one? Sep 05 17:55:50 stryngs, give him the link to your manifesto Sep 05 17:56:03 manifesto, bwhahaha =) Sep 05 17:56:09 KotCzarny: i'd think it's rhe other way round. apt uses dpkg, dpkg does not even know about apt :) Sep 05 17:56:26 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95922 Sep 05 17:56:38 sicelo, but i asked if there is such config option for apt that will get passed to dpkg -i Sep 05 17:57:02 the answer would be no, :) Sep 05 17:57:20 So ZetaR, a deb is pretty much a smart tarball. It contains 6 things Sep 05 17:57:29 within the deb it looks like this: Sep 05 17:57:41 DEBIAN, and then usr, or etc, or opt Sep 05 17:57:42 etc.. Sep 05 17:57:54 Within DEBIAN you have 5 total possible files, 1 of which is mandatory Sep 05 17:57:56 control Sep 05 17:58:08 control is the configuration of a .deb file Sep 05 17:58:14 apt-cache show nmap for an example Sep 05 17:58:19 stryngs, unpack .deb via: ar x your.deb Sep 05 17:58:23 that's a basic control file, what u see with apt-cache show Sep 05 17:58:28 KotCzarny: Oh im getting there Sep 05 17:58:30 its a bit different Sep 05 17:58:34 KotCzarny: Negative =) Sep 05 17:58:37 one sec Sep 05 17:58:44 it has 3 files afaik Sep 05 17:58:53 fs and deb control and some pkg info Sep 05 17:58:56 Here u go Sep 05 17:58:58 http://termbin.com/xik9 Sep 05 17:58:59 grab that Sep 05 17:59:06 rename it to rebuild Sep 05 17:59:08 chmod +x it Sep 05 17:59:10 then do: Sep 05 17:59:14 ./rebuild Sep 05 17:59:25 That will unpack it properly Sep 05 17:59:28 So you can modify it Sep 05 17:59:35 So, back to the deb story Sep 05 17:59:35 no, i was just tlking about .deb contents in general Sep 05 17:59:44 I have taken apart debs before. I was replying to "stryngs: KotCzarny: I'm all about redoing the .debs. I've already built a script to decompress them; would be hard to modify it to automate the whole process." but I didn't have the previous comments, so it sounded like you were trying to install them in some odd way. Sep 05 17:59:45 Yeah, but dpkg -x is cleaner than ar -x Sep 05 17:59:57 ar allows u to see DEBIAN though. Sep 05 18:00:42 * stryngs is kind of lost on what the topic is right now, truth be told. Sep 05 18:00:51 heh Sep 05 18:01:21 I didn't really know what the topic was to begin with. :) Sep 05 18:01:48 zetar, topic is stryngs murdering optification and moving fremantle toward fhs Sep 05 18:02:11 ^^ Sep 05 18:02:30 Also, the Unification and moving away from the fragmentation that has become Maemo Sep 05 18:02:36 and changing cssu installation in the process into single pkg install Sep 05 18:02:40 ^ Sep 05 18:02:44 That about sums it up Sep 05 18:02:54 That is what I thought, but I was confused by the "not at all..." reply by stryngs. Sep 05 18:03:01 Also, the ability to give yourself a nice base system, 100% without being connected to the internet. Sep 05 18:03:20 13:55 < ZetaR> Ahh, okay, so you are repackaging debs to remove optification? Sep 05 18:03:29 That's when I said not at all, now i follow Sep 05 18:03:44 So ZetaR, aside from .debs we want to modify, we don't have to repackage anything Sep 05 18:04:00 ZetaR: All pymaemo-optify does is some nasty mounting to put everything on /opt Sep 05 18:04:15 You follow me not following? Heh. Sep 05 18:04:17 ZetaR: If you remove pymaemo-optify, you have a very clean filesystem Sep 05 18:04:36 ZetaR: The problem is though, if u remove it, you only have 256MB on / Sep 05 18:04:43 ZetaR: so, you must modify your filesystem layout Sep 05 18:04:44 Right. Sep 05 18:04:51 ZetaR: Which I have done, successfully Sep 05 18:04:52 one word, fhs Sep 05 18:05:19 KotCzarny: fhs or bindmounting, either way; we just all have to agree. And many people have said FHS, but no steps has been presented Sep 05 18:05:19 if you move boot things into / and non-boot critical stuff into /usr its clean Sep 05 18:05:35 it has to be clearly defined Sep 05 18:05:37 KotCzarny: We need steps for this =) I wish I had some? Sep 05 18:05:38 So, you are now going to mount the eMMC as /usr (like Nokia should have done)? Sep 05 18:05:57 once you have it, you can have /usr anywhere Sep 05 18:06:05 flash, emmc, sd Sep 05 18:06:28 ZetaR: Well, right now, I only know one way to proceed, and that is my bindmount hacks. I would LOVE the FHS method, but, I don't know how to implement it. Others have mentioned it, but no steps or guidance has been presented on paper yet. So, all I have to go with till then, is my bindmount techniques. Sep 05 18:07:33 if you have things in /usr, you can use normal mount, no need for binding Sep 05 18:07:36 I saw the text you posted about it. I am not sure why you are doing /lib and /sbin and stuff as bindmounts. Sep 05 18:07:42 KotCzarny: So how do we move them there? Sep 05 18:07:50 KotCzarny: Without repackaging and recompiling EVERY deb Sep 05 18:07:59 Yeah, just have NAND as / and eMMC as /usr. Sep 05 18:08:00 ZetaR: Because they take up space on / Sep 05 18:08:27 But stuff shouldn't generally install to /lib and /sbin. Sep 05 18:08:30 ZetaR: I moved as much stuff as I could, to alleviate the strain on NAND, only 256MB is easy to fill up when adding the types of .debs I do. Sep 05 18:08:38 Well, aircrack-ng Sep 05 18:08:44 Stuff goes to sbin Sep 05 18:08:50 It should go to /usr/sbin Sep 05 18:09:07 Right, but sometimes, it just doesn't and you have to account for that. Sep 05 18:09:30 Actually, I take that back, it does do usr/sbin Sep 05 18:09:45 Point being, I offloaded as much as I could to the larger hdd Sep 05 18:09:52 and in truth, It's still FHS compliant Sep 05 18:10:06 /home/rootfs_bind/usr on /usr Sep 05 18:10:15 usr is still under / Sep 05 18:10:19 Just mounted Sep 05 18:10:19 If a package is going to /sbin and it is not required for boot or basic CLI diagnostics, then it is probably wrong and needs to be fixed. Sep 05 18:11:00 would be nice to have system which can boot without /usr mounted, yet being able to charge, rescue itself etc Sep 05 18:11:10 and only needing /usr for full boot Sep 05 18:11:20 Right. Sep 05 18:11:20 KotCzarny: afaik, backupmenu ssh solution does this Sep 05 18:11:28 KotCzarny: You have to manually mount a whole bunch of stuff Sep 05 18:11:46 once i get my secondary n900 im going to hack it till it screams Sep 05 18:12:02 Alright, well I suppose it's time to make the FHS post. Sep 05 18:12:07 I'll be back here ina bit Sep 05 18:12:13 I'm just glad people like the idea. Sep 05 18:12:17 stryngs: It just seems unnecessarily complicated the way you are doing the mounts. Sep 05 18:12:18 I wasn't sure if it would gain traction Sep 05 18:12:35 ZetaR: What I do allows me to install any .deb I want, without overflowing / Sep 05 18:12:42 ZetaR: I can grab any kali armel deb i want Sep 05 18:12:59 ZetaR: Other user's however, cannot, unless they take similar actions as me, and this is due to optification bs. Sep 05 18:13:02 If /usr is the eMMC then you should be able to do that anyway. Sep 05 18:13:11 What about when /etc fills up? Sep 05 18:13:14 That is, if everything is propery deoptified. Sep 05 18:13:21 stryngs, some people do things using overlay mounts Sep 05 18:13:43 We don't want to have to repackage every single .deb though; we want the most efficient time saving manner possible, while still making maemo useful. Sep 05 18:13:44 ie. have a booting os in flash, and overlay in emmc Sep 05 18:13:45 It would be very difficult to fill up /etc, since stuff should never put much data in it. Sep 05 18:13:58 that way you can install every deb too Sep 05 18:14:08 ZetaR: My thoughts were not so much that it can be difficult, but that it could happen, hence the precautions I took. Sep 05 18:14:19 and also allows for easy snapshots Sep 05 18:14:20 Take for instance, /var/apt/cache/archives Sep 05 18:14:28 What's that mounted on Sep 05 18:14:42 /var/lib/dpkg rather Sep 05 18:15:03 Either way, I don't want to argue about it, I want us to come together and implement a solution! Sep 05 18:15:17 Whatever the majority decide, if folks want to cash in on this; is how we'll proceed. Sep 05 18:15:28 If the majority decides my current way sucks; and can make it better, I'll use what tey do. Sep 05 18:15:33 team effort. Sep 05 18:15:35 i wouldnt mind some cash Sep 05 18:15:45 Well KotCzarny, in that respect Sep 05 18:15:48 IMO, if something is filling up the NAND by putting stuff in /etc or /lib or /sbin, then it is wrong and needs to be fixed. I don't think it is the job of mount to fix it. But this is your project, just sharing my opinion. Sep 05 18:15:57 KotCzarny: If this goes mainstream, then you can put it on your resume. Sep 05 18:16:11 stryngs, unlikely Sep 05 18:16:15 ZetaR: That is exactly the feedback I want. Sep 05 18:16:17 (resume wise) Sep 05 18:16:27 ZetaR: Constructive Critisim with useful remarks. Sep 05 18:16:38 :) Sep 05 18:16:53 Nokia-N900:/lib# du -h . | tail -n 1 Sep 05 18:16:53 24.9M . Sep 05 18:16:58 thats 24.9M Sep 05 18:17:03 i think optification was a quick and dirty way of 'deb needs a fixing' Sep 05 18:17:15 KotCzarny: It was Sep 05 18:17:25 KotCzarny: it did the job, but it's time to update how we do things Sep 05 18:17:33 Alright, enough chattering from me, let me make Part III happen Sep 05 18:17:42 FHS -vs- Bind Mounting.......... FIGHT! Sep 05 18:17:49 i wonder if emmc could take the beating of having fs on it Sep 05 18:18:23 KotCzarny: You mean full fs? Sep 05 18:18:27 yes Sep 05 18:18:29 stryngs: du without pipe: "du -h -d 0 /etc" Sep 05 18:18:30