**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Oct 05 02:59:58 2015
Oct 05 05:25:00 <KotCzarny> meanwhile at mozilla hq: http://i.imgur.com/vX8lozU.gif
Oct 05 05:25:39 <princefakhan> http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm
Oct 05 05:25:52 <princefakhan> this video is lagging on my browser
Oct 05 05:26:07 <princefakhan> even tho it downloaded overnight.
Oct 05 05:26:09 <princefakhan> :(
Oct 05 05:47:24 <KotCzarny> does it lag in mplayer too?
Oct 05 05:56:29 <princefakhan> didnt try any other method
Oct 05 05:56:39 <princefakhan> the connection is slow at the moment
Oct 05 05:58:10 <princefakhan> I forgot. I am on chrome on windows KotCzarny
Oct 05 05:58:30 <KotCzarny> you can paste direct link to mplayer
Oct 05 05:58:39 <KotCzarny> it will play network links too
Oct 05 05:59:12 <princefakhan> I will. Once the bandwidht usage drops.
Oct 05 07:55:13 <DocScrutinizer05> princefakhan: please download and play back in e.g. VLC or whatever decent mediaplayer of your choice
Oct 05 07:55:29 <princefakhan> :)
Oct 05 09:30:29 <Maxdamantus> New SD card.
Oct 05 09:30:44 <KotCzarny> do it movie style, let it explode on insert
Oct 05 09:30:55 <Maxdamantus> also, with my SD–backcover hack, you can swap them by sleeping in the middle.
Oct 05 09:35:28 <Maxdamantus> comes with an exfat partition.
Oct 05 09:38:08 * Maxdamantus wonders why it starts 16 MiB in.
Oct 05 09:38:23 <KotCzarny> erase block?
Oct 05 09:38:28 <KotCzarny> (hehe)
Oct 05 09:47:02 <KotCzarny> also, sdcard.org formatter says sd cards have 'protected area for security functions'
Oct 05 09:47:12 <KotCzarny> whatever that is
Oct 05 09:47:18 <KotCzarny> https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/\
Oct 05 09:47:31 <KotCzarny> https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/
Oct 05 09:52:12 <Maxdamantus> That page seems like a load of bullshitp
Oct 05 09:52:31 <Maxdamantus> it talks about an "SDXC driver", which is really just an exFAT driver.
Oct 05 09:53:36 <Maxdamantus> There's no such thing as SDXC. The standard just allowed slightly larger drives to exist.
Oct 05 09:54:00 <Maxdamantus> unless you consider the special new filesystem (exFAT) to be part of the SD card.
Oct 05 09:54:35 <KotCzarny> have you ever considered updating wikipedia with that info?
Oct 05 09:55:03 <Maxdamantus> No. Non-primary sources about this sort of thing are probably difficult to find.
Oct 05 09:55:19 <KotCzarny> SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature
Oct 05 09:55:45 <Maxdamantus> That's obviously not the case, since I have an "SDXC" card that works with ext4.
Oct 05 09:55:53 <KotCzarny> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#SDXC
Oct 05 09:56:29 <KotCzarny> it may be wording and marketing, but older devices can have troubles with sdhc/sdxc cards
Oct 05 09:56:54 <Maxdamantus> That's only a software issue.
Oct 05 09:57:10 <Maxdamantus> All SD cards speak the SD protocol, which any SD driver can understand.
Oct 05 09:57:18 <KotCzarny> still, issue that comes from keeping tight to the specifications
Oct 05 09:57:56 <Maxdamantus> If you're running Linux, the thing that sits on top of the SD protocol, creating a block device, etc, will work with practically any size card.
Oct 05 09:58:20 <KotCzarny> nope, i think older kernels required updating too
Oct 05 09:58:23 <Maxdamantus> same with something like Rockbox.
Oct 05 09:58:33 <KotCzarny> it was long time ago tho
Oct 05 09:58:39 <Maxdamantus> updating for what?
Oct 05 09:58:51 <KotCzarny> for detecting correct size
Oct 05 09:59:31 <Maxdamantus> I suspect that would've been long before the standard enabled larger sizes.
Oct 05 10:00:04 <KotCzarny> http://forum.fs-net.de/index.php/Thread/3295-Update-old-kernel-with-SDHC-driver/
Oct 05 10:00:05 <KotCzarny> :)
Oct 05 10:00:07 <KotCzarny> 2012
Oct 05 10:00:29 <KotCzarny> not linux but quite recent
Oct 05 10:01:07 <Maxdamantus> Windows is known for its bad hardware support.
Oct 05 10:01:59 <Maxdamantus> Eh, I don't think that has to do with this.
Oct 05 10:02:29 <KotCzarny> You can read/write large SDHC cards since Linux kernel version 2.6.22
Oct 05 10:03:16 <KotCzarny> could be related to controllers drivers
Oct 05 10:04:11 <Maxdamantus> The controllers don't have much to do with SDHC.
Oct 05 10:04:28 <KotCzarny> dont they?
Oct 05 10:04:46 <KotCzarny> kernel talks to hw, hw talks to card
Oct 05 10:04:48 <Maxdamantus> No. They just move SD packets around.
Oct 05 10:05:05 <Maxdamantus> It has to do with SDIO.
Oct 05 10:05:40 <KotCzarny> afaik sdio was invented for anything else than flash memory
Oct 05 10:06:13 <Maxdamantus> It sounds like that reference to Linux 2.6.22 is some project calling itself the "SHDCi project"
Oct 05 10:06:21 <Maxdamantus> which happened to implement support for more controllers.
Oct 05 10:06:26 <jon_y> some controllers also have variable card drive strength iirc
Oct 05 10:06:26 <Maxdamantus> not necessarily to do with SDHC.
Oct 05 10:06:39 <jon_y> maximum fun
Oct 05 10:07:08 * jon_y was backporting some linux-4.3 patches
Oct 05 10:07:13 <Maxdamantus> Pretty much the only case where you're going to have hardware issues with the size is if the hardware doesn't actually present itself as an SD controller.
Oct 05 10:07:27 <Maxdamantus> (eg, if it presents itself as a USB mass storage device)
Oct 05 10:08:07 <jon_y> aren't there controllers that present themselves as scsi or something?
Oct 05 10:08:36 <Maxdamantus> Possibly, but they would be in the same boat.
Oct 05 10:08:42 <KotCzarny> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#SDIO
Oct 05 10:08:48 <KotCzarny> yeah, its an extension
Oct 05 10:08:59 <KotCzarny> you can read/write without sdio
Oct 05 10:10:21 <Maxdamantus> I wouldn't really trust Wikipedia on this sort of thing, because it's hard to find decent acceptable sources for it.
Oct 05 10:10:51 <Maxdamantus> eg, there are no citations in that entire section.
Oct 05 10:10:52 <KotCzarny> isnt wikipedia requirement for sources before factoid edits get in?
Oct 05 10:11:15 <jon_y> pssh no
Oct 05 10:11:28 <jon_y> especially when nobody is looking
Oct 05 10:11:41 <KotCzarny> :)
Oct 05 10:11:55 <Maxdamantus> Wikipedia is often annoyingly difficult when it comes to some topics.
Oct 05 10:12:03 <jon_y> but go on, lets help it along its demise 
Oct 05 10:12:14 <Maxdamantus> C and SD cards would be good examples.
Oct 05 10:12:24 <Maxdamantus> plenty of secondary sources full of crap.
Oct 05 10:12:36 <Maxdamantus> and primary sources aren't acceptable.
Oct 05 10:12:47 <jon_y> the only source I trust for technical standards, are the technical standards
Oct 05 10:12:57 <jon_y> like PCI-SIG docs for PCI
Oct 05 10:13:01 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, and those are unacceptable to Wikipedia.
Oct 05 10:13:08 <jon_y> they're not?
Oct 05 10:13:14 <Maxdamantus> They're primary sources.
Oct 05 10:13:20 <jon_y> wat
Oct 05 10:13:52 <Maxdamantus> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_primary_and_secondary_sources#You_are_allowed_to_use_primary_sources..._carefully
Oct 05 10:14:59 <jon_y> it would be odd to point out how the standard docs say something completely different than what the established 2nd source says
Oct 05 10:16:34 <KotCzarny> it could be the case when tech docs are ignored by implementers
Oct 05 10:16:51 <jon_y> could be the case
Oct 05 10:16:52 <KotCzarny> or when bug compatibility is a must when implementing
Oct 05 10:17:03 <jon_y> see all the workaround quirks
Oct 05 10:17:16 <jon_y> USB, PCI, MMC hosts
Oct 05 10:18:35 <KotCzarny> still, tech docs for sd standard aren't free
Oct 05 10:18:59 <jon_y> :(
Oct 05 10:19:02 <Maxdamantus> There are partial standards that are somewhat free.
Oct 05 10:19:19 <Maxdamantus> but yes, that's another thing that makes SD difficult -_-
Oct 05 10:19:48 <Maxdamantus> partial standards as in: they release the standard with lots of sections removed.
Oct 05 10:20:27 <KotCzarny> and that's why they recommend not using os formatter for 'security features'
Oct 05 10:20:37 <KotCzarny> without saying what are they
Oct 05 10:22:20 <Maxdamantus> SD devices also have minimal networking functionality.
Oct 05 10:22:36 <Maxdamantus> so you can supposedly chain them together in various topologies.
Oct 05 10:22:58 <KotCzarny> isnt that called daisychaining?
Oct 05 10:23:13 <Maxdamantus> If you connect them in a daisychain, yes.
Oct 05 10:23:17 <Maxdamantus> but that's only one topology.
Oct 05 10:23:41 <Maxdamantus> That's probably the only one you can do without a hub.
Oct 05 15:25:57 <DocScrutinizer05> daisychaining on SD cards? duh!
Oct 05 15:26:04 <DocScrutinizer05> please elaborate
Oct 05 15:36:33 <KotCzarny> spi protocol supports it 
Oct 05 15:38:19 <KotCzarny> https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/e/3/b/d/1/50e5d529ce395fd27b000001.png
Oct 05 15:40:06 <Sicelo> gnucash still THE finance application on Linux or does someone know better?
Oct 05 16:59:47 <ecc3g> Anyone using UHS-1 cards in their n900, does it work properly?
Oct 05 17:00:21 <ecc3g> I have a regular PC that seems to not be able to write to UHS-1 cards in Linux, but works perfectly in Windows
Oct 05 17:02:16 <ecc3g> (Linux is using FUSE exfat, but reformatting the media to ext4 doesn't help, still cannot write)
Oct 05 17:03:33 <ecc3g> i should say that it appears to write but no data ends up on the media...
Oct 05 17:03:56 <KotCzarny> dmesg?
Oct 05 17:06:07 <ecc3g> no indication of write failure, silent failure... up until the point that the filesystem finds itself corrupt
Oct 05 17:06:18 <KotCzarny> then some writes occur
Oct 05 17:06:48 <KotCzarny> unless its just consistency check between memory and physical 
Oct 05 17:07:04 <KotCzarny> what kernel/driver?
Oct 05 17:07:15 <ecc3g> i have a feeling that linux is trying to write in regular SD/MMC mode but the card itself only supports UHS1 properly.
Oct 05 17:07:37 <ecc3g> which is a bad card as they all should support SD/MMC mode
Oct 05 17:07:39 <KotCzarny> also, by linux you mean n900 or pc?
Oct 05 17:08:07 <ecc3g> I was wondering if anyone had it working on a n900 too, I suspect similar issues...
Oct 05 17:08:25 <KotCzarny> just put it into n900 and check?
Oct 05 18:44:18 <Maxdamantus> ecc3g: there is no "regular SD/MMC mode"
Oct 05 18:44:34 <Maxdamantus> ecc3g: maybe it only has an exFAT filesystem.
Oct 05 18:44:50 <Maxdamantus> oh, you mentioned that.
Oct 05 18:45:17 <Maxdamantus> ecc3g: have you tried to mount it from a commandline?
Oct 05 18:45:46 <KotCzarny> i would start with simple dd test on block device
Oct 05 18:45:58 <KotCzarny> write, read, compare
Oct 05 18:46:20 <KotCzarny> maybe its a fake?
Oct 05 18:59:25 <ecc3g> Yes there is a SD/MMC mode and UHS-1 uses a separate signalling mode.  And yes I've always mounted via command line.  The problem I'm seeing is that using SD/MMC mode is unreliable, but Windows does not use SD/MMC mode and uses UHS-1 mode, and coupled with that, is completely reliable.
Oct 05 19:00:06 <ecc3g> Still could just be a bad card, but wonder if anyone else sees this behavior on UHS-1 cards
Oct 05 19:00:39 <ecc3g> Even if it's a bad card, it works perfectly in Windows...
Oct 05 19:00:55 <KotCzarny> see: quirks
Oct 05 19:01:34 <KotCzarny> you could've just found a bug in linux driver for your sd host
Oct 05 19:01:46 <ecc3g> that's also possible.
Oct 05 19:01:54 <KotCzarny> that's why i've suggested trying the card in n900
Oct 05 19:01:59 <KotCzarny> or any other linux device
Oct 05 19:02:05 <ecc3g> if the n900 isn't working...
Oct 05 19:02:25 <KotCzarny> are there sdxc cards without uhs?
Oct 05 19:02:45 <ecc3g> it also does not work properly in SDHC USB card readers using usb-storage
Oct 05 19:02:50 <ecc3g> I doubt it
Oct 05 19:02:51 <KotCzarny> because people were using successfully big cards in n8x0/n900
Oct 05 19:03:08 <KotCzarny> big == >=64GB
Oct 05 19:03:39 <ecc3g> hmm... might be a poorly implemented card, but it was too suspicious seeing two readers fail but works fine in windows
Oct 05 19:04:01 <KotCzarny> is that card working in windows witht that usb reader?
Oct 05 19:04:37 <ecc3g> That I did not try, never needed to since my windows boxes have built-in readers...
Oct 05 19:04:51 <ecc3g> I suspect it will not work...
Oct 05 19:06:11 <KotCzarny> usb reader (unless its using some specific driver)should behave the same on both systems
Oct 05 19:07:04 <ecc3g> and I suspect it will behave the same, though not sure what windows does when a disk reports a successful write but doesn't actually write.
Oct 05 19:13:24 <Maxdamantus> I have a card that does that.
Oct 05 19:13:38 <Maxdamantus> on at least Linux and Rockbox.
Oct 05 19:25:34 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1484469#post1484469  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10333354
Oct 05 20:47:26 <freemangordon> ~flashing
Oct 05 20:47:26 <infobot> maemo-flashing is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh
Oct 05 23:38:40 <evil_core> hi all
Oct 05 23:38:58 <evil_core> talk.maemo.org doesn't work for me
Oct 05 23:39:22 <evil_core> its problem with mine ISP or maybe my IP got blockes somehow?
Oct 05 23:40:34 <evil_core> blocked*
Oct 05 23:48:21 <evil_core> 91.196.215.202 <- it's my IP address, dunno why it got blocked hour ago by meego.org :-/
Oct 05 23:50:31 <evil_core> can it be caused by restoring firefox(after killall -4) with ~50 TMO tabs?
Oct 05 23:51:46 <ecc3g> my guess is...probably yes.
Oct 05 23:52:45 <evil_core> so what can I do no?
Oct 05 23:52:47 <evil_core> now*
Oct 05 23:55:14 <evil_core> and I don't see the page that my address got blocked. I cannot open socket on 80
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Oct 06 02:59:58 2015