**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 10 03:00:00 2017
Nov 10 20:06:00 <atk> I have a used n900, what should I do with it first?
Nov 10 20:06:29 <CatButts> probably update to latest official firmware
Nov 10 20:06:39 <CatButts> and install community something something
Nov 10 20:06:48 <CatButts> https://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
Nov 10 20:08:29 <opt1mus> atk: and sand off the prongs on the charging cable you intend to use with it
Nov 10 20:09:11 <opt1mus> the two little spring loaded prongs are sometimes quite proud and you risk breaking the charging port of the board
Nov 10 20:09:14 <atk> I actually have already been using a N900 for a year I just want to get a clean N900 so I can move my current N900 stuff onto it because my current N900 has a dead keyboard
Nov 10 20:09:18 <opt1mus> oh
Nov 10 20:09:41 <atk> and I've already soldered down the charging port of my current one... that's something I need to do for the new one
Nov 10 20:09:56 <opt1mus> nice
Nov 10 20:09:57 <atk> and remove the shitty RTC battery
Nov 10 20:10:16 <atk> whoops - I think I just accidentally murdered a small spider
Nov 10 20:10:33 <opt1mus> I got some polar cell batteries, they're working quite well
Nov 10 20:10:35 <atk> but yes, the thing I was specifically interested in is how do I flash these things back to "stock"
Nov 10 20:10:50 <atk> yes, I have a polarcell in my current n900 and it was a great purchase
Nov 10 20:11:09 <atk> I think I might get another one for when I forget to charge the phone for a few days and it dies.
Nov 10 20:11:30 <opt1mus> I bought two and an external charger
Nov 10 20:11:40 <atk> yes, the external charger is a must
Nov 10 20:11:44 <Vajb> ~lazyflash
Nov 10 20:11:45 <CatButts> hey guise, unrelated question
Nov 10 20:11:59 <Vajb> meh
Nov 10 20:12:19 <atk> Vajb: joerg has already pointed me towards that one, I'm going to read it in a second
Nov 10 20:12:21 <CatButts> NiMh battery leak produces base Ph, yes?
Nov 10 20:12:28 <atk> Vajb: but he told me to ask here anyway
Nov 10 20:12:33 <CatButts> and not acid
Nov 10 20:14:01 <atk> CatButts: "NiMH cells have an alkaline (basic) electrolyte..." from wikipedia
Nov 10 20:14:07 <atk> so probably yes
Nov 10 20:14:22 <CatButts> ah, good
Nov 10 20:14:36 <CatButts> I am cleaning gunk from unrelated device with vinegar
Nov 10 20:16:23 <KotCzarny> atk: you probably know about:
Nov 10 20:16:25 <KotCzarny> ~flashing
Nov 10 20:16:26 <infobot> rumour has it, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh; or see ~flashing-cmdline, or see ~lazyflashing
Nov 10 20:16:28 <KotCzarny> ~cssu
Nov 10 20:16:28 <infobot> well, cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)
Nov 10 20:18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> atk: do NPT sand off anything on USB plugs!
Nov 10 20:19:44 <DocScrutinizer05> aah, you coverd that already
Nov 10 20:21:10 <atk> I'll just solder the thing down
Nov 10 20:21:19 <CatButts> lol
Nov 10 20:21:31 <atk> I have enough solder to cover the surface of the earth probably...
Nov 10 20:22:00 <DocScrutinizer05> ~usbfix
Nov 10 20:22:00 <infobot> methinks usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt
Nov 10 20:22:19 <CatButts> can solder and duct tape solve lovelife?
Nov 10 20:23:26 <CatButts> So what's a quick list of things to do with a 'new' n900? I'll start
Nov 10 20:23:45 <CatButts> 1. be a creep and look through previous owner's stuff
Nov 10 20:24:02 <CatButts> 2. format and flash latest firmware
Nov 10 20:24:05 <CatButts> 3. CSSU
Nov 10 20:24:15 <CatButts> 4. sand them cables
Nov 10 20:24:18 <atk> DocScrutinizer05: so basically, expose some copper on the ground plane next to the USB connector and then blob the fuck out of it
Nov 10 20:24:20 <atk> got it :D
Nov 10 20:24:21 <CatButts> 5. ????????
Nov 10 20:24:54 <CatButts> 5. Sturdy the fuck out of m-usb female
Nov 10 20:25:00 <CatButts> 6. ????????
Nov 10 20:26:46 <atk> the libgles1 and libgles2 in the repos - that's from the SGX SDK?
Nov 10 20:27:32 <Maxdamantus> Install u-boot, just in case you still lose the USB port
Nov 10 20:28:29 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess so, yes
Nov 10 20:29:11 <DocScrutinizer05> well, actually from Nokia, though I guess they also used that SDL to produce them
Nov 10 20:29:12 <atk> spider update: the spider is alive
Nov 10 20:29:22 <DocScrutinizer05> \o/ :-D
Nov 10 20:29:49 <CatButts> what's u-boot
Nov 10 20:30:00 <Maxdamantus> ~u-boot
Nov 10 20:30:00 <infobot> it has been said that u-boot is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613
Nov 10 20:30:24 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if "keep a jam jar in freezer, to catch spiders in it" would qualify for a patent
Nov 10 20:31:08 <atk> descriptions of wheels have qualified for patents before
Nov 10 20:31:09 <atk> so why not
Nov 10 20:31:11 <DocScrutinizer05> ~factinfo u-boot
Nov 10 20:31:11 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: there's no such factoid as u-boot
Nov 10 20:31:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ~factinfo #maemo u-boot
Nov 10 20:31:37 <infobot> #maemo u-boot -- created by DocScrutinizer51 <~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Oct 29 12:36:32 2012 (1838 days); it has been requested 5 times, last by Maxdamantus, 1m 37s ago.
Nov 10 20:31:46 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah that's why
Nov 10 20:33:25 <CatButts> https://i.imgur.com/GVI2n.jpg
Nov 10 20:33:30 <CatButts> speaking of patents
Nov 10 20:33:58 <DocScrutinizer05> atk: the -26 centigrade nicely slow down spiders when you catch them by placing the jar over them on the wall. No escaping when getting the jar off the wall, after 20s
Nov 10 20:34:16 <atk> I just pick them up with my hands
Nov 10 20:34:18 <atk> it's easier
Nov 10 20:34:25 <DocScrutinizer05> *shudder*
Nov 10 20:36:52 * Maxdamantus usually just leaves them be.
Nov 10 20:37:21 * Maxdamantus will occasionally get rid of webs though.
Nov 10 20:39:59 <atk> DocScrutinizer05: the md5sums don't match with any of the files provided by the SDK so I presume either they're from an older SDK version or they're custom nokia ones
Nov 10 20:42:49 <DocScrutinizer05> the SDK aiui provides source code interface stubs for including a binary blob into them and provide that with an ABI - so the files in the SDL would never show up unmodified on the target
Nov 10 20:43:17 <DocScrutinizer05> SDK even
Nov 10 20:44:46 <atk> the SDK also provides the GLES libs
Nov 10 20:45:09 <DocScrutinizer05> and yeah, quite possibly Nokia had better docs for the PowerVR so they could even patch the blobs
Nov 10 20:45:24 <atk> hmm, indeed
Nov 10 20:45:34 <atk> well, when I get this compiling against mainline I'll try all manner of combinations
Nov 10 20:46:00 <DocScrutinizer05> also note that the latest SDK says "hardfloat" or somesuch, while maemo is softfp
Nov 10 20:46:48 <atk> hmm, interesting
Nov 10 20:47:04 <atk> does the n900 cpu support hardfloat?
Nov 10 20:47:04 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not sure how much it would matter when the PVR libs use hardfp
Nov 10 20:47:17 <DocScrutinizer05> err yes
Nov 10 20:47:19 <atk> it would probably make them a bit faster
Nov 10 20:47:27 <DocScrutinizer05> marginally
Nov 10 20:48:24 <DocScrutinizer05> even softfp in the end uses hardware "float coprocessor", just the parameter passing is via stack and a lib instead of coproc registers and direct function calls
Nov 10 20:49:16 <CatButts> oh I have been reminded
Nov 10 20:49:16 <DocScrutinizer05> the lib then calls the float coproc as well on all architectures that support it
Nov 10 20:49:29 <CatButts> n900 CPU and float
Nov 10 20:49:35 <CatButts> vs integer
Nov 10 20:49:44 <Maxdamantus> I don't think armel would accurately be described as softfp.
Nov 10 20:49:54 <CatButts> on a nintendo DS, ou would go for integer
Nov 10 20:50:18 <Maxdamantus> softfp is something you can enable when compiling something, where the compiler will use software implementation of floating point operations.
Nov 10 20:50:49 <CatButts> that's probably slow
Nov 10 20:51:03 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed using reals/floats for GFX is ... *MEH!*, 32 or even 64bit integers should be absolutely sufficient and way faster
Nov 10 20:51:04 <CatButts> compared to programming straight up int
Nov 10 20:51:07 <Maxdamantus> Indeed, but it might be required for portability.
Nov 10 20:51:47 <CatButts> so, n900's CPU cannot do float, yes?
Nov 10 20:51:52 <Maxdamantus> If you're targeting a system that doesn't have any floating point operations, it might be better to just implement suitable fixed-point arithmetic.
Nov 10 20:51:53 <DocScrutinizer05> it can
Nov 10 20:52:01 <Maxdamantus> Yes, N900 does both 32-bit and 64-bit floats.
Nov 10 20:54:49 <DocScrutinizer05> see http://www.ti.com/product/OMAP3530/description
Nov 10 20:56:30 <DocScrutinizer05> also see http://paste.opensuse.org/68509984
Nov 10 20:57:08 <DocScrutinizer05> vfp and vfpv3
Nov 10 20:57:31 <DocScrutinizer05> and neon on top
Nov 10 20:57:36 <CatButts> >JazelleŽ RCT Execution Environment Architecture
Nov 10 20:58:16 <CatButts> oh hey, it's the NDA proprietary ARM java doohickey thing
Nov 10 20:58:36 <CatButts> typically used for accelerating J2ME
Nov 10 20:58:38 <DocScrutinizer05> total crap, I heard
Nov 10 20:58:46 <DocScrutinizer05> slower than CPU to run java
Nov 10 20:59:11 <CatButts> I am familiar with it from Sony Erricsson phones
Nov 10 20:59:47 <Maxdamantus> I imagine the advantage would be potential power saving in not having to compile short-lived code.
Nov 10 21:00:13 <CatButts> j2me apps run faster
Nov 10 21:01:28 <Maxdamantus> Faster specifically when running code in the interpreted mode?
Nov 10 21:02:46 <CatButts> faster when running intensive code that does stuff like render realtime audio
Nov 10 21:03:03 <Maxdamantus> I'm not familiar with the ARM Java stuff, but I would imagine it would potentially be faster before the JIT actually compiles the code.
Nov 10 21:03:04 <CatButts> there's no api for realtime audio, so it's a hack
Nov 10 21:03:26 <Maxdamantus> Right, if it's something intensive, the JIT should compile it into native code anyway.
Nov 10 21:03:51 <Maxdamantus> on a normal system, the threshold usually has to do with 10k iterations.
Nov 10 21:04:10 <Maxdamantus> so eg, once a method has been called 10k times, it will probably be compiled to native code.
Nov 10 21:04:43 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I guess it depends on the SoC, no?
Nov 10 21:04:51 <Maxdamantus> before that, it will just be interpreted .. so there'll be a while loop that looks something like: while(i = get_next_instruction()) run_instruction(i);
Nov 10 21:05:32 <Maxdamantus> If you could replace that while loop with something equivalent in the CPU, that seems like a potential advantage.
Nov 10 21:05:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I've been told that OMAP3530 is faster on genuine ARM CPU than on Jazelle with running java
Nov 10 21:11:11 <Maxdamantus> I imagine the better way to make things faster is to just put compiled code onto persistable storage.
Nov 10 21:11:17 <Maxdamantus> ie, use actual binaries with native code in them.
Nov 10 21:11:44 <Maxdamantus> which is what normally happens when your programs are written in C/C++/Rust/Go/whatever
Nov 10 21:14:04 <Maxdamantus> iirc JDK9 has some support for AOT compilation too.
Nov 10 21:14:55 <Maxdamantus> So you can compile a .so that you provide to the VM alongside your classes.
Nov 10 21:55:49 <opt1mus> DocScrutinizer05: I don't see the issue with modifying a microUSB male in such a way, they're dirt cheap
Nov 10 21:56:23 <opt1mus> if you leave them as is then you can run the risk of pulling at the USB port on the N900 too much
Nov 10 21:56:49 <opt1mus> which would you rather?
Nov 10 21:57:21 <opt1mus> a 2 bit cable, or bugger up a rare phone
Nov 10 21:58:33 <DocScrutinizer05> a) the plugs need a 100 mating cycles then they get softer  b) sanding/filing causes nasty abrassive dust and surfaces that both can damage the receptacle when plugging that sanded plug  c) pulling the plug never caused any hard, it's bending the plug while pulling it that does
Nov 10 21:59:35 <DocScrutinizer05> s/any hard/any harm/
Nov 10 21:59:35 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: a) the plugs need a 100 mating cycles then they get softer  b) sanding/filing causes nasty abrassive dust and surfaces that both can damage the receptacle when plugging that sanded plug  c) pulling the plug never caused any harm, it's bending the plug whi...
Nov 10 22:00:17 <opt1mus> I think quite a few nonfunctioning USB ports on N900s disagree, to each their own
Nov 10 22:01:08 <DocScrutinizer05> and finally, razher than filing away the latches, you can simply push them inwards slightly with your fingernails, to make them a tad softer
Nov 10 22:01:54 <opt1mus> hmm, perhaps bending them if that's possible would be favorable
Nov 10 22:02:04 <opt1mus> if they can be made to remain less proud
Nov 10 22:02:10 <DocScrutinizer05> I used ~40 N900 and had no issues with ISB on a single one of them
Nov 10 22:02:33 <DocScrutinizer05> USB*
Nov 10 22:03:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I seen a dozen times how users abused their devices while unplugging USB
Nov 10 22:04:06 <DocScrutinizer05> as a general rule, never use both hands for unplugging, correct unplugging is done with two fingers of one hand basically
Nov 10 22:04:20 <opt1mus> I baby mine, so it's never parted company from the board, so perhaps I'll never find out personally how much force is required to do so
Nov 10 22:06:09 <opt1mus> maybe I've just been unlucky in having microUSB cables that've had overprominent prongs on them
Nov 10 22:12:07 <DocScrutinizer05> some are a bitch initially, yes. Pencil and a 10 minutes of prying out the plug with fingernail and then remating it fix this
Nov 10 22:12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> you can easily do 20 to 30 partial (1 - 2mm) unplug+replug cycles per minute
Nov 10 22:13:59 <DocScrutinizer05> use a soft pencil (HB, B...) to 'lubricate' the exterior of the plug a bit
Nov 10 22:14:31 <opt1mus> interesting technique, it's not like I use a wood rasp on it though
Nov 10 22:14:51 <opt1mus> ;}
Nov 10 22:15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> but the most important thing is to learn how to correctly unplug: grab the plug on *small* sides with your thumb and digit finger so close to the case that you can "roll" your fingertips against the case to pry out the plug
Nov 10 22:16:42 <opt1mus> indeed
Nov 10 22:18:37 <DocScrutinizer05> alternatively insert fingernail between plug and case and pry out plug with your nail
Nov 10 22:19:07 <DocScrutinizer05> again bysupporting the finger(nail) against the case
Nov 10 22:20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> NEVER hold case with one hand and _pull_ the plug with the other hand, creating all the force out of your elbows
Nov 10 22:20:31 <DocScrutinizer05> or shoulders rather
Nov 10 22:21:45 <DocScrutinizer05> you must be avle to unplug using one hand only, while the device sints on a pillow or other soft surface and doesn't get pushed into it
Nov 10 22:22:03 <DocScrutinizer05> you must be able to unplug using one hand only, while the device sits on a pillow or other soft surface and doesn't get pushed into it
Nov 10 22:25:39 <opt1mus> is this pillow made from silk, or Egyptian cotton?
Nov 10 22:25:52 <opt1mus> I jest...
Nov 11 00:01:22 <pkill9> is it normal that when usb is plugged in, it kinda wobbles side to side? 
Nov 11 00:01:35 <pkill9> does that mean my usb port is gonna break?
Nov 11 00:05:18 <opt1mus> there'll be a very small amount of movement, but fractions of a millimeter
Nov 11 00:05:55 <opt1mus> but if it's mm of movement then I'd very careful
Nov 11 00:06:10 <opt1mus> I'd be careful either way
Nov 11 00:07:50 <opt1mus> if there was literally zero play at all; I'd be concerned
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 11 03:00:02 2017