**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 18 03:00:02 2017 Nov 18 08:21:07 it will make your system segfault Nov 18 08:22:26 the point is about system segfaulting with stock kernel and thumb binaries Nov 18 08:23:00 uBoot or flashing --flash-only=kernel both install stock jernel Nov 18 08:24:02 Well, u-boot probably won't make your system segfault, because u-boot probably doesn't use virtual memory and "segmentation fault" is a term for when a higher-level OS decides that a page access is invalid. Nov 18 08:24:42 the benefit from a thumb system is arguable, I think for a lot of users the complications weigh more than the increased free RAM Nov 18 08:26:56 * Maxdamantus ultimately wants to use a normal Linux distribution, which probably means using something like Debian's "armel" port. Nov 18 08:27:23 Since armhf relies on a non-bugged implementation of Thumb-2. Nov 18 08:29:36 so it's gonna be a pain in the butt if I get power kernel, uboot and thumb cssu? Nov 18 08:29:54 I think u-boot should be pretty much irrelevant. Nov 18 08:30:22 aiui, the only time you'd think about Thumb issues with u-boot is when actually compiling u-boot. Nov 18 08:30:54 Since if you decide to tell your compiler to use thumb instructions when building u-boot, it won't run correctly on the N900. Nov 18 08:31:22 I decide not to compile and use precompiled binaries :P Nov 18 08:31:47 If you have a correctly running u-boot (which is what you'd get if you acquire it from the maemo repository or compile it yourself using the default configuration for rx-51, it shouldn't affect the stability of the kernel you boot from it) Nov 18 08:32:08 misplaced closing bracket there, but meh. Nov 18 08:32:31 missplaced null terminator :P Nov 18 08:36:05 power kernel has the workaround just like cssu-kernel (thumb) Nov 18 08:40:22 yes Nov 18 08:41:28 so, what complications can I expect, besides that of running thumb code with non-thumb kernel? Nov 18 08:44:37 none Nov 18 08:45:52 just booting into uBoot default jernel or reflashing kernel will make your system segafault and prolly you will have to do a full rootfs aka COMBINED reflash to recover Nov 18 08:46:52 Why not just do a reflash of the kernel to be one supporting the thumb workaround? Nov 18 08:47:03 (or a u-boot image with such a kernel appended) Nov 18 08:47:47 most likely you also can't run binaries from your system when you booted up to rescueOS - again stock kernel with thumb binaries Nov 18 08:49:18 restoring a BM backup after a reflassh will reder your system bootlooping, you need to install either powerkernal or uBoot manually before you restore Nov 18 08:50:45 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if somebody (robbiethe1st?) could pimp BM to backup and restore kernels too Nov 18 08:51:49 heck, that would be a nice workpackage for bored developers lacking ideas what to do Nov 18 08:53:20 * Maxdamantus has always disliked the idea of software responsible for maintaining the main OS filesystem messing around with kernels and partition layout. Nov 18 08:54:23 CatButts: Nov 18 08:54:27 ~uboot Nov 18 08:54:28 N900 uBoot is a siamese twin binary [uBoot+stockMaemoKernel] that resides in kernel NAND partition /dev/mtd3 aka "kernel". You can't uninstall it, rather you'll nuke it when you flash/install another kernel like stock maemo kernel or powerkernel. To start other than stock maemo kernel via uBoot, you have to provide the according kernel image files, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613 Nov 18 08:57:02 CatButts: to put it utterly clearly: unstalling uBoot replaces any kernel you may have installed by uBoot+stock-kernel. Install uBoot on a thumb system and repoot:-> doomed, since bootloop Nov 18 08:57:22 s/unst/inst/ Nov 18 08:57:22 DocScrutinizer05 meant: CatButts: to put it utterly clearly: installing uBoot replaces any kernel you may have installed by uBoot+stock-kernel. Install uBoot on a thumb system and repoot:-> doomed, since bootloop Nov 18 08:58:13 s/boot/poot Nov 18 08:58:20 you need to install uBoot and uboot-powerkernel-image "atomically", I.E without any boot in between Nov 18 08:59:27 if you mess up for whatever reason (battery empty, system locks up, whatever), you're lost and have to do a full reflash Nov 18 09:01:47 Why not just do a reflash of the right u-boot image/kernel? Nov 18 09:02:05 you most likely also want to tweak uBoot so it boots to powerkernel by default Nov 18 09:03:18 and you never may touch the uBoot powerkernel image after that and break it in any way, since otherwise, you guessed it: bootloop and pending full reflash Nov 18 09:03:43 well you could try fixing stuff via rescueOS Nov 18 09:05:36 thumb works just great... as long as all works. When you need any recovery mode or want to mess with your system, you're usually pretty much on your own and nothing works like described in wiki etc Nov 18 09:07:39 that being said, I didn't need any recovery or felt like messing with my system in a few years now. So I as well could have installed powerkernel and thumb years ago and probably hardly would recall the fact Nov 18 09:11:18 you *might* want to keep a disk image of complete rootfs (and /opt) on your eMMC or uSD and learn how to flash NAND and eMMC ext3 partition from within uBoot menu Nov 18 09:12:06 when however uBoot itself gets upset, you're lost Nov 18 09:14:07 * DocScrutinizer05 pnders to try formatting initrd NAND partition as a 'floppy' Nov 18 09:14:28 dirty hack, ignoring bad blocks and whatnot Nov 18 09:14:31 * Maxdamantus has restored (to additional devices) by just booting into rescueOS, exporting the entire eMMC using g_file_storage then partitioning/copying stuff just using his computer. Nov 18 09:14:38 and flashing using flasher. Nov 18 09:14:44 (flashing the kernel) Nov 18 09:14:52 but a rather safe place for the few additional tiny ascii files uBoot needs Nov 18 09:16:23 and probably just tar over g_ether for ubifs. Nov 18 09:16:28 for ubifs the initrd partition is too smal :-S Nov 18 09:18:28 * Maxdamantus has a separate partition on eMMC for kernels, could put initrds in there if he wanted them. Nov 18 09:22:55 * DocScrutinizer05 also wonders how hard it could be to create a FIASCO image with powerkernel, and another one with fully configured uBoot + PK image + default boot to PK Nov 18 09:32:06 ~bm Nov 18 09:32:06 [backupmenu] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975, or one-click install handling dependency issues: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/et_al/HAM-catalogs/BM.install Nov 18 09:33:19 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 >>*Can I restore my BackupMenu images through the Nokia Flasher?* Not currently. This is a planned feature, but not in the current version. It -is- possible to convert a BackupMenu image to a Nokia Flasher rootfs image, but it requires a Linux PC with mtd-utils<< Hmm does it really? Nov 18 09:34:49 Well, the flasher image normally has an actual ubifs image in it. Nov 18 09:36:30 $ epm -qf `which mkfs.ubifs` Nov 18 09:36:30 mtd-utils-1.5.0 Nov 18 09:37:23 Presumably if you can get mkfs.ubifs to compile/run on Windows, you could do it there. Nov 18 09:37:48 I imagine there's some chance it would already just work on macOS. Nov 18 09:42:23 is fancy maemo package manager just frontend to apt-get or is there more to it? Nov 18 09:42:59 say, if I decide to apt-get a particular application instead of using maemo's package manager Nov 18 09:43:24 Yes. Nov 18 09:43:57 I think there's slightly more to it, but it basically works the same way as apt-get. Nov 18 09:44:29 I think the categorisation it has might be an extra maemo thing, but you should still be able to install all packages through apt-get. Nov 18 10:35:29 hmmm, I installed power kernel and noticed slight graphical corruption in the spinning loading animation at top of UI Nov 18 10:35:45 that's always a nice sign :P Nov 18 10:36:28 CatButts: there's more to it. You may use apt-get install if you watch carefully what you're doing Nov 18 10:37:01 NEVER do apt-get upgrade or dist-upgrade or autoremove Nov 18 10:41:39 also you don't want to edit /etc/sources.list Nov 18 10:41:54 do that via HAM Nov 18 10:47:30 ~hamvsfam Nov 18 10:47:30 extra, extra, read all about it, hamvsfam is https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-10-28.log.html#t2013-10-28T10:44:33, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93227 Nov 18 10:48:13 ~speedyham Nov 18 10:48:14 it has been said that speedyham is 30 times faster than HAM https://github.com/community-ssu/hildon-application-manager, now included in CSSU. Nov 18 10:55:26 FAM is nice Nov 18 10:56:16 the one thing that bugs me about it is that it leaves you guessing which marked package prevents you from installing the rest Nov 18 10:56:23 due to dependencies Nov 18 10:56:36 so you discard whole list Nov 18 11:09:39 ah right, it does if you go through log Nov 18 12:42:09 ~papman Nov 18 12:42:17 ~fapman Nov 18 12:42:18 well, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU), or actually for anything since ~speedyHAM. It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. In short, it's been identified as source of system corruption and thus deprecated, or see ~hamvsfam Nov 18 13:33:19 here's a funny thing I noticed about charging Nov 18 13:33:33 I plug phone in usb with 21% Nov 18 13:33:41 probably enabled mass storage Nov 18 13:33:47 probably Nov 18 13:34:03 indicator sticks to 21% the whole time Nov 18 13:34:09 I reboot phone Nov 18 13:34:22 61% Nov 18 13:39:52 maybe I'm daydreaming Nov 18 14:56:53 ~bme Nov 18 14:56:54 bme is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME Nov 18 14:59:20 >replacement goals Nov 18 14:59:23 >alpha Nov 18 14:59:25 >Not make the battery explode. Nov 18 14:59:30 noble Nov 18 14:59:33 :P Nov 18 15:00:40 the faux readings are probably result of me mucking around with kernels Nov 18 15:03:00 Hey folks, not sure I'm in the right place. Nevertheless, I'm currently looking at N800/N810/N900 as a Linux PDA for some occasional SSH'ing and terminal usage. How good is it nowadays? Which would you pick? Which has a better keyboard? Would you recommend it to a nerdy person, who's living in the terminal? Nov 18 15:04:46 for starters, the n900 has keypad which might be either 4 keys for direction or 2 keys for direction with modifier for other two directions, depending on locale Nov 18 15:05:06 Sounds sweet Nov 18 15:05:12 *depending on chosen keyset from options Nov 18 15:12:10 And for the rest? Are the keys clicky? Nov 18 15:14:43 not clicky Nov 18 15:14:56 but big fingers will be bad Nov 18 15:15:27 as for pda, hw kb is nice, and n900 prices are so low its not worth to look at n8x0 Nov 18 15:15:49 software will be a bit newer too for n900 Nov 18 15:16:51 Ok, thanks a lot. I guess I'll be a frequent guest here :) Cheers Nov 18 15:17:33 also consider installing u-boot and booting archlinux-arm if you wanna use it as a terminal device Nov 18 15:17:43 that's what i'm doing heh Nov 18 15:18:12 I've seen this name before, put it on my todo list Nov 18 17:38:17 hey guise, I've been thinking Nov 18 17:39:17 around this parts, what's the policy on closed source binaries produced from reverse-engineering of other closed source software, uncomercially Nov 18 17:39:25 *these Nov 18 17:41:15 let's say, reversing software compiled to intermediary bytecode and porting it to something like C+SDL Nov 18 17:42:14 by hand Nov 18 17:42:40 coughoperaminiandj2megamescough Nov 18 18:09:10 kuzzmi: m,any users think N900 has the best kw kbd they ever used. I strongly recommend to go with plain stock maemo5 OS for starters Nov 18 18:09:29 plus CSSU of course Nov 18 18:09:31 +1 Nov 18 18:09:34 ~cssu Nov 18 18:09:34 well, cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) Nov 18 18:09:44 maemo is quite well thought out ui Nov 18 18:13:27 CatButts: for maemo extras there's a ruls of conduct or whateveryoucallit you have to "sign" for each project you upload Nov 18 18:14:19 and we will immediately remove any package that violates those GPL rules Nov 18 18:15:58 community has no QA that checks each project in depth. Actually that's the big problem with extras-devel -> *-testing -> extras right now Nov 18 18:16:33 so we can only remove packages we realize are conflicting with the GPL Nov 18 18:16:55 does GPL imply open source only? Nov 18 18:17:09 yes Nov 18 18:17:27 to see, use and modify Nov 18 18:18:21 so where does user-made non-free go? Nov 18 18:18:30 in non-free Nov 18 18:18:44 and what are the policies there? Nov 18 18:18:58 <__axon__> is there a patch for split screen in maemo? Nov 18 18:19:01 no-violating any copyrights Nov 18 18:37:46 split-screen? Nov 18 18:38:11 __axon__: please elaborate Nov 18 18:41:40 may be he wants non-fullscreen windows Nov 18 18:53:38 <__axon__> DocScrutinizer05:Sometimes it might be helful to have side by side windows. Nov 18 18:54:52 <__axon__> an other question: do you have any recommendations for n900 cases that protect the screen - and might be better than the sock that I am currently using ? Nov 18 18:56:39 kuzzmi, I've had N800, N810 and N900. The N810 has "more keys", and for that it's sometimes better for ssh. However, the N900 keys have greater depth to them, which for me made the N900 much quicker to type on. Nov 18 18:57:02 Any of then would probably be excellent for ssh use Nov 18 19:10:54 <__axon__> anyone on cases? or split screens? Nov 18 20:11:36 no split screens under hildon Nov 18 20:11:47 the screen is tiny enough Nov 18 20:12:09 for "cases", I use a "landscape" holster Nov 18 20:13:20 never thought of really using any additional always-on protective sleeve, though otterbox I got as a gift is pretty nice Nov 18 20:14:20 I vaguely remember someone here wanting to smooth scratches on touchscreen with acetone Nov 18 20:14:29 but refraining from doing so Nov 18 20:14:32 WAAAH!# Nov 18 20:15:14 I am pondering lending self to that expurriment, once I get replacement screen Nov 18 20:15:15 forget it, when you got a scratch on digitizer, all yoz possibly might do about it is car wax Nov 18 20:15:28 why not some abrasive powder + toothbrush? :P Nov 18 20:15:43 brushie brushie Nov 18 20:15:44 steel wool Nov 18 20:15:50 or belt sander ftw? Nov 18 20:15:59 *that's* it Nov 18 20:16:27 hey, I am lending my phone to SCIENCE, not brutal murder Nov 18 20:16:41 you're doing wut? Nov 18 20:16:45 might as well throw whole unit in lava Nov 18 20:17:03 or.. just use it as it is and stop worrying? Nov 18 20:17:18 I am replacing digitizer and was pondering trying home remedies on the ill digitizer before replacing Nov 18 20:17:19 try a PET water bottle for your experiments! that one is not only much cheaper, it also doesn't contain nasty silicon oil Nov 18 20:17:35 i havent noticed scratched screen to be a big issue (on one of my spares) Nov 18 20:19:13 acetone my ass Nov 18 20:19:49 * DocScrutinizer05 already figures domesheet melt away and keymat varnish getting sticky Nov 18 20:22:15 I tried with polishing paste, dodn't work put well either Nov 18 20:22:35 Regarding N900 keys, the keyboard layout I use has all printable ASCII characters mapped. Nov 18 20:22:45 honestly if you want to try anything, try carnauba car wax Nov 18 20:23:08 there's only one character that requires two modifiers. Nov 18 20:23:41 carefully, and immediately remove excess completely before it dries Nov 18 20:23:59 I'd've liked to use the second key under the space bar for that instead, but the driver in Linux only emits a single code for both physical buttons. Nov 18 20:24:02 so only the scratch holds a trace of wax in it Nov 18 20:25:45 but honestly as long as the scratch isn't causing leakage of the oil, I think any cure is worse than the original issue Nov 18 20:26:22 and I've not seen any severe scratcjhes in any of my devices so far Nov 18 20:27:14 mine's scratchy and blurry with a single large gauge that has not yet pierced through Nov 18 20:27:28 the blurry bit is kinda irritating Nov 18 20:27:53 *gouge Nov 18 20:27:55 keep in mind if you overdo and pierce the touchscreen layer it can stop working Nov 18 20:29:35 it WILL stop working. Plus leak nasty silicon oil that may make the screen look blurry Nov 18 20:30:23 or somebody already tried polishing the thing which also causes dull blurry spots, I know since I did that Nov 18 20:38:41 hmm how about lack? Nov 18 20:39:29 they refurbish car paint scratches with it at least Nov 18 20:42:21 well yeah, you *might* try UV-curing special transparent cyanoacrylate for fixing broken glass Nov 18 20:43:05 or just browse local classifieds ads and buy nice used screen n900 with broken usb/lcd for 5-10eur Nov 18 20:43:07 might be even better than carnauba, But I'd practice a 100 times on PET bottles before I'd dare doing that on a expensive device Nov 18 20:47:03 also i've seen some protective films for screens, that claim to contain some special silicone stuff which absorbs to scratches and makes them disappear Nov 18 20:52:26 absorb dicks Nov 18 20:52:35 and make them dissapear! Nov 18 20:53:05 worst scenario Nov 18 20:53:43 Vajb: yes, that's the same principle, fill scratches with a transparent fluid Nov 18 20:54:59 it doesn'r "absorb scratches and make them disappear", it just makes them invisible Nov 18 20:57:11 to really make scratches disappear in plastic, you need to recreate the surface with exactly same process used in manufacturing of the plastic film. Usually melting and sort of roll out Nov 18 20:57:40 obviously can't get done when you don't have access to both sides of plain film Nov 18 20:58:03 obviously can't be done when you have shit already assembled Nov 18 20:58:50 it *might* be possible for a limited number of plastic material films to locally heat only the surface. You need *very* controlled process parameters for that Nov 18 20:59:37 * CatButts gets his waffle grill Nov 18 20:59:41 probably you'd need *very very* hot air for very short period Nov 18 21:00:22 maybe laser of useful wavelength and power could do too Nov 18 21:00:29 or just stop worrying about them, really, work one day, buy good n900, problem solved Nov 18 21:00:44 yes, obviously Nov 18 21:00:47 :-) Nov 18 21:01:08 all this started because I wanted to try other people's silly stuff on a spent digitizer Nov 18 21:01:23 time is money Nov 18 21:01:46 tell that to the guy that spent 6 months porting C to AS3 Nov 18 21:01:49 money is plentiful and goes all ways, your time not Nov 18 21:01:54 and learned both in proccesss Nov 18 21:02:08 yeah, point taken regarding the latter Nov 18 21:02:45 but hey, time-wasting binges Nov 18 21:03:15 as is above porting endeavour Nov 18 21:03:16 i have my n900 since 2009, not a single scratch on screen Nov 18 21:03:39 I bought mine 2nd hand, I don't know where it got shoved Nov 18 21:03:52 doing on the original battery too Nov 18 21:29:13 did you ever have any usb port problems KotCzarny? Nov 18 21:29:34 nope Nov 18 21:29:42 using the same original cable/charger Nov 18 21:30:10 always doing connect/disconnect in straight line without bending Nov 18 21:31:10 wort case is upward/downward bending Nov 18 21:31:15 *worst Nov 18 22:08:53 * Maxdamantus has one slightly annoying scratch (prevents smooth sliding using fingernails) on his main device. Nov 18 22:09:03 (from before I bought it) Nov 18 22:09:25 * Maxdamantus also has another N900 in quite good condition that he hasn't used as a primary device. Nov 19 00:25:35 * DocScrutinizer05 has to find that tiny movie about "how to correctly unplug a USB" Nov 19 00:31:56 ~usb-unplug is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140721_002.mp4 Nov 19 00:31:56 DocScrutinizer05: okay Nov 19 00:32:56 ~usbfix Nov 19 00:32:57 somebody said usbfix was http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt Nov 19 00:33:36 ~usbfix is also to avoid breakage, see ~usb-unplug Nov 19 00:33:36 DocScrutinizer05: okay Nov 19 00:33:40 ~usbfix Nov 19 00:33:41 extra, extra, read all about it, usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt, or to avoid breakage, see ~usb-unplug Nov 19 00:35:12 So is unplugging the main risk, or is that just the one that's easily avoidable (as opposed to plugging in, which I do with two hands) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 19 03:00:00 2017