**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 07 03:00:02 2018 Feb 07 03:00:15 What is kawaii?.. Feb 07 03:01:54 Oksana: Some form of anime thing Feb 07 03:02:00 japanese sayings Feb 07 03:02:06 is it necessary to ask it here? Feb 07 03:02:13 oh wait Feb 07 03:02:33 Oksana: Maemo-kawaii is the codename of the update or something Feb 07 03:02:50 uhh Feb 07 03:02:55 * Juesto searches Feb 07 03:03:48 One: be shorter, please. Even when nobody is speaking on the channel, it's more polite to use one long line than ten short ones. Two: I have heard of maemo-lestre update, but not about maemo-kawaii? Feb 07 03:04:24 Oksana: Actually i think i am wrong, i am not sure what he refers to Feb 07 03:04:37 pkill9: what did you mean by maemo-kawaii ? Feb 07 03:06:05 And about web browsers: there are qml-browser and heliummobilebrowser available in maemo repositories, just to scratch the surface. Depends on package compatibility with maemo-kawaii, whatever that is? Feb 07 03:06:31 Oksana: please do not instantly assume it is a OS update. i said i am not sure. Feb 07 03:10:33 so after all Feb 07 03:13:48 which maemo device i should get for the OS experience and experimenting? Feb 07 03:15:19 Okay, I see where kawaii comes from : http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1540914&postcount=16 In terms of getting a Virtualbox/VMWare image running, do a minimal Devuan install and then add a custom 'kawai' repository. (we will soon rename that to leste again...) Feb 07 03:17:50 Juesto: here http://maedevu.maemo.org/images/ Feb 07 03:18:39 Oh, so it's the codename? Feb 07 03:18:43 of something? Feb 07 03:18:50 thanks oksana Feb 07 03:19:23 so it is the beta or alpha? Feb 07 03:19:24 thanks pkill9 :-) Readme would be nice, too, about the files Feb 07 03:19:34 pre-alpha Feb 07 03:20:05 Oksana: actually, looks like kawai is the name of the arm versions Feb 07 03:20:06 yeah, i was a little confused too, officially it's called Maemo-leste but since the images were named maemo-kawai I thought that would be more accurate Feb 07 03:20:09 Juesto : Nokia N900, I guess. Maemo-leste is also running on Allwinner A33 tablet. Support for Motorola Droid 4, Nokia N950 and Nokia N9 may be coming soon, too. Feb 07 03:20:21 and leste is the x86 version Feb 07 03:20:39 Original maemo experience, Oksana. Feb 07 03:20:40 Juesto : link to x86 version? Feb 07 03:20:48 Not necessarily this new project Feb 07 03:21:00 Oksana: x86 is not ready yet, it seems Feb 07 03:21:31 All i see in http://maedevu.maemo.org/images are files for armel Feb 07 03:21:54 Juesto : that's why I recommend Nokia N900 [with Maemo 5]. Nokia N800, Nokia N810, and similar have Maemo 4. Nokia N9 and Nokia N950 have Maemo 6. Feb 07 03:22:00 n900 and sunxi, whatever the latter is Feb 07 03:22:36 Juesto : I think it's only intended to run on arm, or in VM. Not on x86 directly. Feb 07 03:23:05 Oksana: x86 directly is being worked on, one of them is testing on x86 AFAIK Feb 07 03:23:06 Variety of ARM devices is already a good sight to see. Feb 07 03:23:20 ah i see, armel and armhf for n900 Feb 07 03:23:24 just noticed now Feb 07 03:26:27 pkill9 : Is there a way to browse the repositories? http://maedevu.maemo.org/kawai/dists/kawai/ In distant future, something like http://maemo.org/packages/ could be connected, since kawai-leste is next step after Diablo and Fremantle. Feb 07 03:27:20 Oksana: Those repositories are browseable by standard apt manners. you can find your way through the directory pool too Feb 07 03:27:55 i dont think the current maemo is suitable for installing packages from there at all, oksana Feb 07 03:28:01 * Oksana just imagines how disastrous it would be to add kawai repositories to a standard Maemo 5-running Nokia N900 Feb 07 03:28:56 Ah, pool, that's nice, thank you :-) : http://maedevu.maemo.org/kawai/pool/main/ Feb 07 03:29:05 Oksana: I'm not sure, as far as I know Maemo-leste is based on devuan and uses those repositories, but also they're adding their own repo which consists of ported hildon software. more info is on their github Feb 07 03:29:12 main page: https://maemo-leste.github.io/ Feb 07 03:29:32 pkill9: i assume kawai is based on leste and its a build name. probably leste is the source code or the pc version Feb 07 03:29:57 this page seems to track what they're working on https://github.com/maemo-leste/bugtracker/issues Feb 07 03:30:09 actually the first statement is incorrect, seems kawai is a build codename for arm Feb 07 03:30:15 Just confusion with build names, because of variety of Debian's build names, such as jessie Feb 07 03:30:20 yeah, it looks likea codename Feb 07 03:30:22 i guess Feb 07 03:31:19 i tested it and it successfully boots into hildon and I can use terminal and install thigns from the repository Feb 07 03:31:38 things* Feb 07 03:32:17 Nice :-) Did you find a good web browser? Is qml-browser available, for example? Feb 07 03:32:56 Also, how is hildon-theme-alpha in kawai repositories, isn't it one of Nokia's closed binaries? Feb 07 03:33:10 the only one i tried so far is surf, i'll see if qml-browser is available Feb 07 03:33:25 i dunno Feb 07 03:33:28 Oksana: work in maemo leste is all reversed stuff from nokia blobs, afaik Feb 07 03:33:37 for the closed parts Feb 07 03:35:07 I would hope so. But hildon-theme-alpha is mostly just images and styles, it would have worked without being reverse-engineered, so I have no idea if anybody put any effort into reverse-engineering it. Feb 07 03:35:16 i recommend checking their page, i posted it earlier, if you didn't see it: https://maemo-leste.github.io/ Feb 07 03:35:40 * Oksana will read it, thank you :-) Feb 07 03:36:07 Oksana: oh... they're resources? Feb 07 03:36:17 well, that stuff is copyrighted probably Feb 07 03:40:59 Reverse-engineering means that first, person X goes through package (such as hildon-theme-alpha) and documents things (like, what depends on the theme, which images are expected to exist in the theme, which styles are expected to exist in the theme, which class names are expected to be style-sed by Feb 07 03:42:09 In short, package being reverse-engineered should ideally be approached as black box - we know what input to feed it, and what output it will give, but we don't know what's inside it. Feb 07 03:42:09 theme), and then, person Y creates a new package, without looking at Nokia's closed package - only looking at reference documentation, such as X's notes, and existing open-source themes. Feb 07 03:43:15 Thank you for the explanation it was a little unnecessary but good for people who have no idea :) Feb 07 03:43:19 It's probably one of >> fall back to closed components temporarily while we bring up the OS << current limitations Feb 07 03:48:39 pkill9 : how is it? Since kawai repository seems to be very bare-bones at the moment (entirely understandable), devuan repositories might actually be more fruitful. Feb 07 03:49:56 i can get everything from devuan, i just installed chromium 63 and running it, though it won't take keyboard input for some reason Feb 07 03:50:13 can get git, python3 etc Feb 07 03:50:35 note i can type into the terminal Feb 07 03:51:00 There was an add-on for chromium, to make scrolling on touchscreen easier, I think... Feb 07 03:51:13 yeah there is, i remember that one Feb 07 03:51:26 so you can 'grab' the page Feb 07 03:53:12 anyways i gotta sleep, goodnight Feb 07 03:53:30 Nice. Good night :-) Feb 07 03:54:29 how about neo900? Feb 07 03:54:33 is it stable? Feb 07 03:55:16 Juesto : don't mix apples and oranges. Feb 07 03:55:25 Oksana: is it worth having many phones? Feb 07 03:55:29 Neo900 is hardware, device to be released. Feb 07 03:55:29 many maemo devices* Feb 07 03:55:59 Oksana: Should i get the different major devices? Feb 07 03:56:22 Juesto : better to pick which one you like more, beforehand. As in, screen size, keyboard, wireless capabilities. You aren't an octopus to use several mobile devices at the same time. Feb 07 03:57:20 Oksana: I need to research, do you know a easy site for it? i am afraid i may not get any maemo device but the n9 and n900 probably, here in mercadolibre Feb 07 03:57:37 i search maemo and it is completely random results Feb 07 03:57:51 To research... :sigh: There is Wikipedia, for instance. Feb 07 03:57:56 i get lumia stuff Feb 07 03:58:18 yes, wikipedia is okay, but for the user feedback? experience? technical specifications, features? Feb 07 03:58:19 Lumia is distracting, yes. These devices run Microsoft operating system. Feb 07 03:58:19 not sure Feb 07 03:58:49 I mean, searching is confused with lumia because it is nokia, searching maemo seems to yield no results Feb 07 03:58:54 or rather, random results Feb 07 03:59:27 Technical specifications and features are listed in Wikipedia, as well as third-party websites such as PhoneArena or something. User feedback... I think you can read talk.maemo.org to see what people say about their experience. Feb 07 04:01:39 Oksana: all i see here is battery for n900, and both battery and display replacements for n800 Feb 07 04:02:27 As long as you search for exactly +"maemo" (and not maaemo restaurant in Oslo), you get mostly results about Maemo, Nokia N900 and MeeGo (which is related to Maemo 6 running on Nokia N9) Feb 07 04:02:47 Oksana: Maemo gives random results here on mercadolibre, as i said, nothing useful Feb 07 04:02:55 I'll try adding maemo to the model number Feb 07 04:03:53 nope, it would have already showed up without maemo. Oksana, perhaps you could send me a spare of yours please? Feb 07 04:04:05 Try looking for Motorola Droid 4, rather. Nokia N900 is a rather ancient and rare to find device, especially in working condition. Feb 07 04:05:11 Oksana: XT894? with "motorola droid 4" i get a lot of moto z and moto x, motorola droid turbo came up as suggestion too. Feb 07 04:05:44 Moto Droid 2..... a guy sells it for 12k ARS Feb 07 04:05:54 XT894, yes Feb 07 04:06:04 seems to be a new phone since it mentions wireless charging Feb 07 04:09:06 Nokia N900 costs between 100$ and 300$, going by EBay. And that's pre-owned, not new. Feb 07 04:09:28 Oksana: of course, i wouldnt find new. remember i need it to ship to argentina. Feb 07 04:09:48 Yes, Motorola Droid 4 is newer, but I don't see wireless charging: https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_droid_4_xt894-4418.php Feb 07 04:10:32 Oksana: I saw a *Moto* droid 4, apparently it is a newer model than the one you're mentioning. xt894 was offered in search suggestion Feb 07 04:12:11 No idea. http://elektranox.org/droid4/ Feb 07 04:12:52 Moto or Motorola, it's probably different names of the same model. Feb 07 04:13:26 Oksana: no, moto is a branding, motorola was company, now lenovo bought it and it is kept as branding, moto is like a brand and a line of products Feb 07 04:14:18 Either way, feel free to look at the phone you already have, and check whether it can run Linux. Feb 07 04:15:11 Oksana: Android dominates the smartphone market along with Apple iOS. i doubt i'll able to find a linux smartphone similar to maemo that isn't android.' Feb 07 04:15:22 ...nowadays Feb 07 04:16:08 * Oksana points towards Sailfish OS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusiasts%27_ports_to_devices_from_other_vendors Feb 07 04:16:41 Juesto: look 4 it on aliexpress.com Feb 07 04:16:44 Oksana: it is not common, as far i know. i am yet to see something like sailfish being a highlight somewhere Feb 07 04:17:16 Manufacturers don't install Sailfish by default, but it doesn't mean that user cannot do it. Feb 07 04:17:56 is it optimal for it to be installed by default, ensuring and proving maximum compatibility, oksana Feb 07 04:18:34 As you can see, the list of devices capable of running Sailfish OS is longer, _and_ it includes devices which can run Maemo-Leste: Nokia N9, Motorola Droid 4 XT894, Nokia N950. Feb 07 04:20:14 Juesto : it makes a large difference only if software and hardware use manufacturer-specific pieces. If Hardware and software use standard and fairly open approach, then everything is compatible with minimal fiddling. Feb 07 04:21:36 One of the earliest smartphones running Linux: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_A780 <-- Ancient Feb 07 04:24:57 Oksana: Of course. usually the end user does not want to install software where it is unknown terrain for such user. on a phone where compatibility isnt known. Perhaps if the manufactured listed a compatibility table Feb 07 04:29:07 Juesto : You may find it of interest that there is LuneOS mobile operating system based on the Linux kernel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuneOS Feb 07 04:29:25 Oksana: Android is based on the Linux kernel too.... Feb 07 04:29:46 It is compatible with Google Galaxy Nexus and Google Nexus 4/5/7, besides other devices Feb 07 04:30:33 Juesto : LuneOS runs apps written in Qt5/QML. Maemo can also run apps written in Qt/QML. Feb 07 04:31:13 Oksana: and does maemo do qt5? Feb 07 04:32:06 More like Qt 4.7 Feb 07 04:32:15 Oksana: additionally, see your PMs please. Feb 07 09:48:05 parazyd: let's get the rename done soon, people are starting to call it kawaii already ;) Feb 07 09:48:53 ;) Feb 07 09:49:07 i'm building the vms now Feb 07 09:49:17 we can try renaming later today if you feel like it Feb 07 09:49:26 04:32 < Oksana> Also, how is hildon-theme-alpha in kawai repositories, isn't it one of Nokia's closed binaries? Feb 07 09:49:35 Oksana: some non binary stuff we have just imported Feb 07 09:50:28 Oksana: also, since it's hosted on *.maemo.org there should be no problem Feb 07 10:01:49 Wizzup: hrrm, i'm ineterestied in this experimental devuna maemo... espcially the feasibility of going all armhf, how much will need 'replacing' to get rid of armel compenents in a usable-system...? Feb 07 10:04:48 of everything non binary is open, then nothing Feb 07 10:04:50 s/of/if/ Feb 07 10:04:51 Wizzup meant: if everything non binary is open, then nothing Feb 07 10:05:27 brb Feb 07 10:27:49 Wizzup: yes, but, what things ary binary non-open and needed for functional core/maemo sysem ? what are the blockers and how easily are they replaced? Feb 07 10:28:25 enyc: big one is the phone stack Feb 07 10:31:20 enyc: there are a few other big ones, like browser Feb 07 10:38:15 Wizzup: 'phone stack' includes/excludes 2g/3g data ? Feb 07 10:39:43 phone stack is actual phone calls. data already works Feb 07 10:40:06 or, should work with ofono Feb 07 10:40:31 ok ... imho that can be done without at first, certainly i the way i use it but anyway =) depends on user Feb 07 10:40:48 keep in mind this will have to wait a bit, since connui is still missing Feb 07 10:41:10 Wizzup: browser -- surely can get one of many firefox/chromium/whatever-basis working, no need the original maemo browser? Feb 07 10:41:12 enyc: it depends. data works with ofono, phone calls might/should work with ofono, but then we still need UI. maemo does not use ofono for data nor for calls Feb 07 10:41:24 enyc: right, but let's pick one that's simple and customisable Feb 07 10:41:57 there were/are many gtk simpler browsers, without as MUCH custimazition but lower resource / faster, iirc Feb 07 10:42:13 yes, surf is one possibility Feb 07 10:42:22 e.g. used to be Gnome galeon , maybe an epiphany or something else i forget Feb 07 10:42:22 but we'll need to work on scrolling and some gestures.. Feb 07 10:42:39 we're not at the browser customisation point yet Feb 07 10:42:43 need more core stuff first :) Feb 07 10:42:51 sure! Feb 07 10:43:06 yes and you need 'core' "functional" to get developers/users interested! Feb 07 10:43:55 connui would be very nice, and some init script fixes, and then some status applets and qt are next I think Feb 07 10:44:13 connui = the UI for wireless connections? Feb 07 10:44:36 mhm Feb 07 10:57:52 Wizzup: with ofono & maemo - perhaps the dummy-network hacks would work? Feb 07 10:58:14 or at least provide a starting point Feb 07 11:00:28 I think pavel is already experimenting, but I am not sure what this dummy-network hack is Feb 07 11:03:18 i'm on crappy network, but it's there in wiki. it's what makes connections such as usb-networking work. i use that with wpa_supplicant on N900, because the wifi settings on n900 do not work with the enterprise wifi network at my company Feb 07 11:03:48 anyway, i'm sure pavel will find a more elgant solution :-) Feb 07 11:03:57 on that note, we do plan to use wpa_supp as plugin for icd2 I think Feb 07 11:04:04 but not sure how far out that is Feb 07 11:04:10 there is so much to be done, but at least things are moving :) Feb 07 11:04:52 you're all doing amazingly good work Feb 07 12:02:14 Oksana: Juesto the 'kawai' repo is now renamed to 'leste' again. 'kawai' is what we use for our 'testing' repos, and as of the rename/merge/move just now, it serves no purpose, images are rebuilt Feb 07 12:02:31 Oksana: Juesto: Just to be clear, it didn't say 'kawaii', it is not an anime reference Feb 07 12:50:39 pkill9: re: browser, no nothing is in place yet Feb 07 12:50:44 pkill9: and yes, scrolling doesn't work in surf Feb 07 12:50:50 kk Feb 07 12:50:56 pkill9: it was just mentioned as a possible thing we could modify Feb 07 12:51:01 but there's bigger things to tackle first Feb 07 12:51:09 not sure if you can see the channel logs, but it'd be useful Feb 07 12:51:14 i tried chromium and it runs and renders, but the keyboard gets sent to the terminal when you type into chormium o_O Feb 07 12:51:28 :) not surprised Feb 07 12:51:31 kk i'll check the channe logs Feb 07 12:51:32 didn't try that at all Feb 07 12:51:41 pkill9: yeah, it also answers your kawai question Feb 07 15:32:15 thanks Wizzup, hehe Feb 07 15:32:38 i guess we figured out a bit afterwards **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 08 03:00:01 2018