**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 02 03:00:02 2018
Mar 02 04:06:03 <Oksanaa> It's... Debian's dependency hell. As in, if X wants to be started on start-up, then it depends on <X-init>, which is provided by either of X-systemd, X-upstart, X-openrc or whatever. Then X-openrc depends on both X and <openrc>, where <openrc> is provided by either openrc itself, or another <init>'s
Mar 02 04:07:50 <Oksanaa> shim to handle openrc-style init scripts.
Mar 02 04:11:15 <Juesto> Oksanaa: you're putting it in the form of freedesktop alternatives way :)
Mar 02 04:12:41 * Oksanaa wonders how people do it now...
Mar 02 04:16:24 <Juesto> Oksanaa: you can always start up X manually, and do the init's job if you wanted even
Mar 02 04:16:29 <Maxdamantus> I'm happy not having X started by the init system, like on all my desktop/laptop machines.
Mar 02 04:16:45 <Juesto> sometimes it's just necessary
Mar 02 04:17:26 * Maxdamantus just logs in through a getty-spawned login and does `exec startx`.
Mar 02 04:17:32 <Juesto> x is started by dsme which in turn is started by the init
Mar 02 04:17:38 <Juesto> lol
Mar 02 04:18:12 <Juesto> there's always a odd dependency regarding display :0
Mar 02 04:18:20 <Maxdamantus> things like screensaver and xmonad and some environment variables are just handled by my ~/.xinitrc
Mar 02 04:18:24 <Juesto> also don't forget display managers
Mar 02 04:18:55 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, I don't use a display manager on any of my systems.
Mar 02 04:19:23 <Maxdamantus> maemo doesn't use one either, unless its using one for a very strange purpose.
Mar 02 04:19:38 <Juesto> dsme is the controller
Mar 02 04:20:03 <Juesto> and without x there's no maemo
Mar 02 04:20:12 <Maxdamantus> anything depending on X should be started within X.
Mar 02 04:20:56 <Maxdamantus> maemo doesn't seem to follow that principle, judging by the fact that lots of things seem to just force the `DISPLAY` variable.
Mar 02 04:21:18 <Juesto> yes but then it doesn't attempt to start again if X fails to start and it's later started
Mar 02 04:21:37 <Juesto> all manual at that point
Mar 02 04:22:04 <Juesto> it depends on a X server started on the expected display
Mar 02 04:22:10 <Maxdamantus> when X is started again, it will again load the programs that are part of the X session.
Mar 02 04:22:42 <Maxdamantus> that will be whatever is in ~/.xinitrc, or howerver the normal X session mechanism works.
Mar 02 04:24:27 <Juesto> .xinitrc is first then stuff in etc/X11
Mar 02 04:24:33 <Juesto> don't remember
Mar 02 04:24:55 <Maxdamantus> .xinitrc is the only thing.
Mar 02 04:25:00 <Juesto> no it doesn't start programs like that, not without rebooting
Mar 02 04:25:47 <Maxdamantus> Right, but it should conform to the paradigm I've described, because that's what normal Linux-based systems do.
Mar 02 04:26:07 <Maxdamantus> The init system doesn't keep respawning your pidgin program or something.
Mar 02 04:26:46 <Maxdamantus> You can configure gnome/kde to start it when your gnome/kde session starts.
Mar 02 04:27:52 <Juesto> sure, for the sake of functionality when something critical fails it should be brought back up and related processes too
Mar 02 04:28:12 <Juesto> especially when the consumer is a noob at computers
Mar 02 04:30:37 <Maxdamantus> If you want to reload X programs on crash, imo that should still be done within X.
Mar 02 04:31:09 <Juesto> yes and maemo doesn't do that for it's services
Mar 02 04:31:13 <Juesto> deficiency
Mar 02 04:31:35 <Maxdamantus> a very crude way would be to just run a script that does `while ! some-program; do sleep 5; done`
Mar 02 04:31:40 <Juesto> lol
Mar 02 04:37:16 <Juesto> .
Mar 02 10:42:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ?
Mar 02 10:44:42 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/57849888  -t --start-restart=<cmd>     -c --max-count=N 
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 03 03:00:00 2018