**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 10 03:00:03 2018 Mar 10 08:28:07 What is television? ;-) Mar 10 08:38:00 You know you are a computer enthusiast when you buy an x86 handheld computer because you want your server, desktop/portable, and mobile computers to all use the same computer architecture? Mar 10 08:39:31 not true Mar 10 08:39:45 you are x86 enthusiast Mar 10 08:42:46 and x86 for mobile device isnt super bright idea Mar 10 08:43:57 You know you work in the electronics/embedded computer industry when you have memorised all of the PCI/USB vendor identifier, MAC OUI, stock ticker symbol, Internet domain name, and possibly more identifers for multiple companies? Mar 10 08:45:55 it's called professional experience Mar 10 08:49:54 You know you are a computer/electronics/technology enthusiast when you have memorised the meaning of most of the acronyms, initialisms, and other abbreviations in the boot messages (complete output of dmesg command after booting) of GNU+Linux booted on a somewhat modern x86 computer? Mar 10 08:56:14 Seriously, though, is there a small (Mini-ITX size or smaller) and low-cost solid-state x86 (at least 80686, preferably (80)x86-64) SBC that can (easily) boot from a (2.5-inch or smaller) SATA HDD? Mar 10 08:56:27 sure Mar 10 08:56:28 plenty Mar 10 08:56:59 I mean with the HDD connected via SATA, not via a USB bridge/converter. Mar 10 09:00:19 I realised that a single chassis fan in one of the ATX tower computers we have always running at my company or my home apparently uses almost one watt of electricity. :-/ Mar 10 09:01:19 oy vey Mar 10 09:01:38 check your atx power 'off' drain Mar 10 09:05:12 Well, I mean according to a simple, possibly naive (spelling?) calculation based on the ratings on a label on the fan; I did not measure the actual load. Mar 10 09:13:07 it rarely runs at full speed Mar 10 09:14:13 unless your chassis is very dusty or ambient temperature is very high Mar 10 09:16:08 Anyway, at my company we currently have at least two server computers using an HDD and at least two client computers using an SSD that are currently using a microATX or full-size ATX x86 motherboard that would use less space and energy and be silent if I could replace the fanful ATX computers with small solid-state x86 SBCs but the server computers still use an HDD instead of an SSD. The OS on all of these computers is Debian GNU+Linux; moving the OS Mar 10 09:16:08 installation to a different computer with a different hardware configuration is probably easy based on my personal experience, unlike the “fun” of trying to move a Windows installation to a different hardware configuration. Mar 10 09:17:23 brolin_empey: keep in mind that servers are not called "servers" just for the marketing reasoning ;) Mar 10 09:18:35 unless by saying "server computers" you mean desktop tower PCs with some RAM added :) Mar 10 09:19:26 freemangordon Hello, how are you? I've been thinking a lot about our last conversation, in December, about Maemo Leste and how I promised I'd have tested it. I'm sorry I did not come up again with it - things went differently from what I expected, and I did not find the time yet to play with the N900 again. Mar 10 09:19:42 May I get an update about the current situation of Maemo Leste? Mar 10 09:20:16 for workstations there are some DELL PCs with I guess atoms ans SSD inside, fanless Mar 10 09:20:24 Enrico_Menotti: sure you may Mar 10 09:21:05 https://maemo-leste.github.io/ Mar 10 09:22:32 freemangordon: Yes, my company is a small business. These server computers are Socket-754 desktop motherboards (Asus K8N from around 2004) with single-core AMD Sempron CPUs, non-ECC RAM, and client SATA HDDs. Mar 10 09:22:58 fmg: server means reliability Mar 10 09:23:03 mhm Mar 10 09:23:05 so usually ecc, redundance etc Mar 10 09:23:14 anything else is just pc with some software Mar 10 09:23:42 right, thats why "11,18,33) freemangordon: unless by saying "server computers" you mean desktop tower PCs with some RAM added :)" Mar 10 09:23:51 ;) Mar 10 09:24:31 freemangordon Wow, thanks a lot. The thing is getting very user friendly, I see: I mean, info seems to be gathered together with a central starting point, very different from what I've been used to find last year, namely spending a lot of time to find things all over the net. Mar 10 09:24:57 What about phone facilities? Is it reasonable to expect the modem to work? Mar 10 09:25:07 brolin_empey: no matter how small your business is, I would recommend to spend some cash on a real server Mar 10 09:25:15 Enrico_Menotti: please, read the whole site Mar 10 09:25:39 Ok, I'll do, thanks. Mar 10 09:25:39 brolin_empey: and use virtualization Mar 10 09:26:28 trust me, it pays off in long term Mar 10 09:30:32 re: servers: https://i.imgur.com/jw9H2.jpg Mar 10 09:31:19 brolin_empey: see that http://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/gateways-embedded-computing/embedded-box-pc-3000/spd/embedded-box-pc-3000/ctoi3000stdus, I think there are even smaller but can;t remember the model Mar 10 09:32:07 KotCzarny: :D Mar 10 09:33:06 freemangordon Ok, found the info. So no phone calls yet. On the other hand, I see there is interest about Anbox. That's very exciting - I was trying to run Anbox over Devuan on my old laptop a few months ago, but stopped at the point where some graphics extension was needed, and my old Savage graphics chipset didn't have that. Mar 10 09:33:39 Also I see there's the maemo-leste channel here on IRC. Will join that. Mar 10 09:35:44 Did the join. freemangordon , thanks a lot for all the info. I'll try to find out some time to be back on the game. Mar 10 09:36:40 Enrico_Menotti: Welcome to the monolithic hardware design of notebook computers, where a notebook computer from the 2010s is still less modular than an original IBM Personal Computer from 1981 in terms of the ability to change the internal video controller. Mar 10 09:37:56 brolin_empey :) Mar 10 09:39:48 brolin_empey Actually, changing the video chipset is not that difficult. You just need to change also some of the surrounding hardware as well. Namely, the whole computer. :/ Mar 10 09:51:56 freemangordon: We do not need actual server hardware for our small-scale use case. Even a Pentium III computer will probably still suffice for these servers. We have an actual server computer, specifically a Dell PowerEdge 2950, but it is used as a software build server, not a general server, and is powered on only when it is needed. Mar 10 09:53:05 brolin_empey: check out banana pi m1 Mar 10 09:53:28 but better espressobin + pcie-sata card Mar 10 09:55:33 KotCzarny: I thought that *Pi is ARM, not x86. Mar 10 09:55:45 so what? it runs debian just fine Mar 10 09:55:58 unless you do some custom software Mar 10 09:56:07 which still can compile if no blobs Mar 10 09:59:36 KotCzarny: My company actually has its own ARM Linux hardware + software platform. I thought I expressed that I want an x86 SBC because I want to continue using the same physical drive with the same OS installation. Mar 10 10:06:10 As far as I know, there is not an automated way to convert a GNU+Linux installation from one computer architecture to another even if the conversion can be done manually. Unfortunately, the normal ELF as used by current Linux supports native code for only one architecture per file, unlike Mac OS X with Mach-O, where a single executable file can contain native code for multiple architectures, in this case both PowerPC and x86. Mar 10 10:13:35 The Portable Executable format used by Windows NT, which has always run on real hardware using multiple ISAs, and Chicago-architecture Windows (Windows 4.x), which gained some of the benefits of Windows NT but is still limited to x86 like Windows 3.x and earlier, seems to have this same limitation as the normal ELF currently used by Linux. Mar 10 10:21:07 My point in saying that my company has its own ARM Linux platform was mainly that I work as a system/network administrator in the electronics/embedded computer industry, so I know more than you seem to think I know in this case. Mar 10 10:26:01 Seriously, though, is there a small (Mini-ITX size or smaller) and low-cost solid-state x86 (at least 80686, preferably (80)x86-64) SBC that can (easily) boot from a (2.5-inch or smaller) SATA HDD? Mar 10 10:26:01 sure Mar 10 10:26:01 plenty Mar 10 10:26:01 I mean with the HDD connected via SATA, not via a USB bridge/converter. Mar 10 10:30:30 I know that a Mini-ITX computer, such as the DFI BT101, can be used for this purpose but is there a lower cost and possibly smaller /x86/ SBC with the same ability? Mar 10 10:56:14 and x86 for mobile device isnt super bright idea Mar 10 10:56:14 I do not see what is wrong with this combination. I need to use x86 for my primary computer whether it is stationary or portable but not mobile; consequently, using x86 for my mobile computer too has benefits in practice, such as the ability to use the same OS installation as on my stationary and portable computers. Mar 10 11:02:22 Besides, the Acorn RISC Machine is the British Invasion of the microprocessor instruction set architectures. ;-) Mar 10 11:55:35 brolin_empey: LattePanda? Mar 10 11:56:43 https://www.board-db.org/search.php?q=&ram_min=&cpu_speed_min=&cpu_cores=&cpu_arch=x86&price_min=&price_max=&storage_min=&gpio_min=&usb_min=&type=&dim_max_1=&dim_max_2=&weight=&sata=on&lan_speed=0&order=price&order_d=a Mar 10 11:56:46 21 results Mar 10 12:16:43 The “weight” parameter should be named “mass”, otherwise a computer used with low to no gravity (is literally no gravity possible? I am not a(n astro)physicist.) could accurately have a value of zero for that parameter. Mar 10 12:20:01 My primary computer has only 8 GiB of main memory but has over 12 GiB of RAM due to RAM on the video card and other peripherals. Mar 10 12:52:18 brolin_empey: sure, in general sense - free fall or being far from any big body of mass should be enough for that Mar 10 12:53:45 brolin_empey: on the other hand, if you want to be very exact, any body exerts gravity to any other, so if you have anything physical close by it's affecting the thing by it's gravity Mar 10 12:54:04 eq any hypothetical space ship or even any atmosphere inside it Mar 10 12:54:24 and so far gravitional force extends to infinity, or there were some new insights? Mar 10 13:30:54 not sure at the moment Mar 10 13:31:16 but given that stuff in galaxies generally orbits the central black hole Mar 10 13:31:31 and galaxies interact gravitationally Mar 10 13:31:39 the range seems to be quite big in any case Mar 10 16:34:11 ~cssu Mar 10 16:34:11 methinks cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update) Mar 10 17:53:41 ++++++++ Mar 10 18:09:31 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mar 10 20:59:38 without a device, what i can do to contribute to maemo? Mar 10 21:00:02 * Juesto feels stupid Mar 10 21:00:27 donate Mar 10 21:00:36 there are threads on tmo with links Mar 10 21:00:52 even donating to server costs helps Mar 10 21:01:21 no online money, sadly Mar 10 21:01:29 wish i could Mar 10 21:01:29 donat offline then Mar 10 21:01:38 not really something Mar 10 21:02:54 enyc: ensuring latest information is there, fixing dead links, etc Mar 10 21:08:47 Juesto: to an extent that can be done... but i feel its' hard to 'review' except by those with knowledge of all of it... Mar 10 21:08:59 oh right Mar 10 21:09:06 Juesto: those who know, will know which bits are stil lrelevant or not, etc etc Mar 10 21:09:08 bit of a mess Mar 10 21:09:19 just get a device Mar 10 21:09:20 https://github.com/maemo-leste/bugtracker/issues/101 Mar 10 21:09:25 and become a tester Mar 10 21:09:27 derp Mar 10 21:09:29 oh well Mar 10 21:09:40 sigh Mar 10 21:10:00 Juesto: first comment explains why Mar 10 21:10:21 alright Mar 10 21:10:25 "We already have https://wiki.maemo.org/ but this would need to be reworked drastically to indicate what information does not apply to Leste. This is already an issue for Fremantle as there are some pages which only apply to Chinook, Diablo, etc. but nothing to indicate that. It's a bit of a mess to be honest" Mar 10 21:11:04 i essenitalyl uspport atht, better to spend work/effort on new system, in this case. I appreciate too m any forks/sources can be a bad thing, but in this instalnce i agree with the #101 plan Mar 10 21:11:38 alright Mar 10 21:11:42 yes Mar 10 21:11:58 beyond leste, the existing wiki still needs fixing **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 11 03:00:02 2018