**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 25 03:00:04 2018 May 25 06:06:01 sicelo : Unfortunately, my N900 doesn't have ability to connect to charger. And drains battery relatively quickly, at that - between 1 and 4 days, depending on usage. May 25 06:27:12 Is there an x86 smartphone with an LED display instead of an LCD? Apparently the Asus ZenFone series dropped x86 before it adopted LED display. Apparently all x86 ZenFone models use an LCD. The GeeksPhone Revolution uses an LCD too. May 25 09:24:38 https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/fuck_systemd May 25 09:24:38 lol May 25 09:28:12 xd May 25 09:29:00 Oksana: nice, my moto e4 plus Android 7 lasts 1-3 days May 25 09:29:15 with a whopping 5k mAh May 25 09:30:07 that's not relatively quickly compared other phones, they last way less, about 8h average May 25 09:30:57 a battery lasting beyond 12 hours is quite an achievement May 25 11:06:26 I am very close to finding an NSS source tree that matches the NSS codebase in microb-engine. This is the first step in allowing me to bring in a newer NSS with support for TLS 1.2 (the reason I am doing this is because there really aren't any viable replacements for microb as a browser that do support TLS 1.2 and because I happen to need TLS 1.2 support for a number of web pages) May 25 11:49:03 jonwil: that sounds good. I hope that you will find a way to update the NSS codebase. BTW what was the show stopper to replace openssl with 1.0.2 version? Is it possible that you could upload the parse-certdata-txt.c file? May 25 11:50:14 https://github.com/community-ssu/maemo-security-certman/ has all the steps to update the root CA store including parse-certdata-txt.c May 25 11:50:38 thats nice thank you May 25 11:51:08 I dont know about OpenSSL replacement, that isn't relavent for NSS and microb May 25 11:52:39 I recall some ABI compatibility issue mentioned? May 25 11:53:25 There is no reason you can't run OpenSSL 0.98 (the current version) and a newer OpenSSL side-by-side May 25 11:53:29 since they have different library names May 25 11:57:42 hmm I tried running different libssl and linking to the new one, but I had problems accessing the certificates. I did not replaced the openssl binary. May 25 12:34:01 jonwil: in case you didn't notice there is now also maemo-security-certman with openssl 1.1 support May 25 12:34:25 Yeah I saw that, that's neat May 25 12:34:38 Although I don't have a need for it May 25 12:34:41 ok May 25 12:52:34 Ok so it looks like I need to pull the main mozilla-central repository (not looking forward to that given how BIG the thing is), check for the last NSS commit made to microb-engine in the mozilla-central repo (easy enough now that I know that microb-engine is using NSS_3_12_6_RTM) then starting from that revision, browse forward in the mozilla-central tree looking for any NSS related commits... May 25 12:52:35 ...and porting those patches to microb-engine one by one until we hit NSS 3.15.1 and the TLS 1.2 support I need May 25 14:29:25 Ok I think I have identified 3 ways forward in terms of getting TLS 1.2 on Maemo Fremantle. May 25 15:12:08 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=100296 has the details of the 3 options I can see as potential ways forward given that there is no existing modern-ish web browser for Fremantle and none for Leste either (meaning May 25 15:12:26 Not that leste is anywhere near usable as a daily driver in any case May 25 21:48:28 hi May 25 21:49:33 hi May 25 22:10:32 Looks like there are definitely options for getting TLS 1.2 support on Maemo Fremantle for those who are interested in it :) May 25 22:14:43 And for those who say "why bother", point me to an alternative,,, May 25 22:17:08 I think people have, you just don't accept it as such ;) May 25 22:22:09 "move to a new OS" isn't an alternative since Leste has no browser and isn't ready for prime time. May 25 22:22:39 And I haven't seen any browser that works for Maemo Fremantle that is new enough to support what is needed May 25 22:23:25 what you want requires work either way. saying that one requires work and thus is not an alternative is weird May 25 22:23:52 but this argument is not productive anyway ;) May 25 22:36:24 jonwil: don't bother about efforts by others to force everybody onto a new premature platform. we seen those so many times and I recommend to ignore them May 25 22:39:16 My point I guess is that it will be much faster to get something new (say, a newer NSS or a newer Gecko tree or something) onto Maemo Fremantle than it will be to get Leste-on-N900 to the point where its a viable replacement with Fremantle and has a full working browser and stuff. May 25 22:39:34 So its an alternative on paper but not really viable right now. May 25 22:41:48 I understand that, I even wonder if that "get Leste-on-N900 to the point where its a viable replacement with Fremantle" will ever arrive. We seen exactly same rationale so many times before, like "why do you want to fix audio in fremantle? just develop your 'say who's calling' app for meego, it's the future" May 25 22:43:03 say-who's-calling works on N900, while on N9 it's ... err is N9 still a thing? And if yes, did they manage to overcome Aegis? May 25 22:44:49 arguments like "why don't you support our new project instead" always have an ugly smell May 25 22:47:26 I think the big argument in favor of Leste (the one I have seen anyway) is that there are a bunch of key packages (gcc, glibc, glib, gtk, kernel and others) that simply can't be upgraded on Maemo without breaking things and a fresh start that doesn't care about ABI compatibility or the many binary blobs on the system is a better way to go vs the CSSU approach of trying to fix bugs on ancient... May 25 22:47:27 ...software versions. May 25 22:47:53 "throw everything away and start over" is never a good idea May 25 22:48:49 well almost never. May 25 22:58:52 I think the problem with Leste is that it seemed to be more about "how can we get Maemo on other hardware" rather than a proper "how can we bring the N900 up to date" plan (with the N900 just being one of a number of target platforms that ends up being supported because the right bits happen to be there) May 25 23:08:25 Yes, Leste will hopefully outlive the N900. Precisely because hardware ages. May 25 23:09:43 That said, it's likely the be the only real and semi-usable target for a while. ;-) May 25 23:10:07 besides, lots of useful/usable stuff has been done that could also be used on fremantle if people put in the time. May 25 23:11:26 DocScrutinizer05: the irony with your "it's the future" argument is that's in reality it is the exact opposite. leste is more compatible with fremantle than any other thing nokia has made after fremantle. most sw works simply by bumping the debian 'compat' file and recompiling the software. May 25 23:11:41 What are the plans re browser on Leste anyway? May 25 23:12:39 there are several ideas, but none have seen significant effort yet because other things have higher priority. personally I'd like to see if we can take a simple webkit browser and extend it with sensible features. or take/mod jolla browser May 25 23:12:49 downside is that even jolla browser is now already somewhat aged May 25 23:12:57 but they might still update it to newer gecko/nss May 25 23:15:14 surf (from suckless) seemed quite hackable with some useful patches around, but really, I have not looked a lot at webkit at all May 25 23:16:41 I wonder what version of Fennec was the one that dropped all the bits we would need and became "Mozilla for Android" (I know there is a Maemo build of Fennec 17 but beyond that I dont know) May 25 23:17:21 I don't recall the version onfortunately. There was also alopex May 25 23:17:29 I think freemangordon said that Jolla browser is based on version 37 or so? May 25 23:20:04 I also have not tried QML Browser. Assuming that is webkit May 25 23:21:57 I'm sorry I can't tell if the breakdown of context and meaning was with my post transferred to you or your reply transferred to me, but I can't make any sense of the response. "It's the future" was an argument a meego (Mk1) devel uttered when some maemo fremantle devel asked about how to implement stuff on N900 May 25 23:23:11 similar stuff happens every other month, it seems May 25 23:23:52 it's the generic "WONTFIX" reply May 25 23:27:28 So if I ask how to do something in debian 3, would you think it is a weird reply to say: upgrade to devuan 8 first? May 25 23:27:54 yes, absolutely May 25 23:28:09 in school you'd get an F for such reply May 25 23:29:26 when I ask "how to drill a hole into steel?", the reply can't be "search for wood" May 25 23:30:56 I am not so sure about that school analogy. If I used a 30 year old biology book, I'd get an F. They would tell me to get a recent book, with all the fixes to the issues in the 30 year old version. May 25 23:31:18 a reply like "move to windows" wouldn't be any wors ethan the "upgrade to debian 8 first" May 25 23:32:57 when somebody asks "how to do X", the anser "you don't" is never a particularly smart one May 25 23:33:36 Right, and I never said that. The only thing I remarked is the relative narrow definition of 'alternative', which annoyed me a bit. That's it. May 25 23:33:43 I should get some sleep May 25 23:39:27 school: the test asks "when your pencil writes an average 4cm per word and on a one page there are 800 words to write, then after how many pages you need to sharpen your pencil when it can write a 6 meter with each sharpening", You answer "Nobody uses pencils anymore, get a ballpen instead!" - guess your rating on that test May 25 23:49:32 I don't know, maybe nowadays this is a valid and even a good answer in school. Back in my time it wasn't, you get zero points and added bonus of public appreciation of the answer by teacher May 25 23:54:12 likewise my original argument that it's not a lehit answer to say "move to meego" when somebody asks how to implement something on maemo fremantle. Nevertheless we heard that a bazillion times May 25 23:54:20 "don't fix it, replace it with something new that probably isn't a direct replacement" is never a good option if fixing it is actually possible. May 25 23:55:01 exactly May 25 23:56:25 you could dstart a debate about how much effort it is to fix the old stuff and whether or not it's worth it. But a mere '"move to Y" never is a legitimate answer to "how do I fix X" May 25 23:59:21 It also depends on whether "move to Y" means "move to Y" or "move to Y and do " May 26 00:02:24 jonwil: anyway you tackling the TLS issue is highly appreciated by many May 26 00:03:08 OHLOL May 26 00:03:16 >> Sorry, it seems that you are using an IP address or a proxy that is listed in the forum anti spam blacklist. Feel free to contact our staff on irc freenode #maemo channel.<< May 26 00:04:00 why the heck does forum need to protect against spammers *READING* it? May 26 00:04:46 I figured out 4 possible ways forward. One is to see if we can get a newer version of Fennec (with the necessary TLS support) to Fremantle. There is a Fremantle port of Fennec 17 floating around but I don't know when Fennec dropped all the bits we need and became "Firefox for Android" and whether there is a new enough build that we can get working somehow. May 26 00:04:55 that's honestly one of the most unique stupid things I encountered in whole intarwebs so far May 26 00:05:43 jonwil: sorry, I can't read your tmo post right now May 26 00:06:46 I copied the posts describing the 4 options I came up with into https://pastebin.com/pbMPnBWN May 26 00:07:41 Option 1 being to try and get a newer Fennec going, option 2 being to try and get a newer Gecko going, option 3 being to back-port the new NSS to the old microb-engine and option 4 being to back port just the TLS 1.2 bits. May 26 00:07:48 could somebody please point me to the website that offered checking IPs against that forum anti spam blacklist? I need to find a privateinternetaccess proxy that isn't blacklisted May 26 00:08:50 or somebody nukes that anti spam crap on everything tmo except /login May 26 00:09:14 Option 2 is my preferred option if we can pull it off since it would give not just TLS 1.2 but also a better browser engine (I tested Firefox 24 Portable on my Windows PC against many of the sites that simply do not work on Maemo Fremantle right now and ,many of them are definitely usable on FF24) May 26 00:13:48 sounds good May 26 00:14:55 ~listkeys unblock May 26 00:14:57 Factoid search of 'unblock' by key returned no results. May 26 00:15:06 o.O May 26 00:15:35 ~listkeys unban May 26 00:16:03 ohmy, 2:16 already May 26 00:16:31 gotta wait til 2:19 May 26 00:17:20 I wish TimRiker would fix whatever it is in cron.daily that fucks the bot May 26 00:19:26 ~listkeys unban May 26 00:19:28 Factoid search of 'unban' by key returned no results. May 26 00:20:44 * DocScrutinizer05 glares at logrotate and systemd May 26 00:22:30 wouldn't be surprised when there was a systemd-logrotated that fucked up stuff in that it indiscriminately shuts down and restarts processes that have a logfile open at rotate time May 26 00:23:09 The 3 problems we have are A.Identifying anything removed between the code we have and the FF24 Gecko code that we need to bring back (not the easiest of things), B.Identifying any API or ABI incompatibilities between the 2 and finding a solution for them and C.Porting the maemo Debian packaging, all the local patches etc (where they still matter) over to the new tree May 26 00:23:47 But its still far less work than getting Leste to the point where its usable as a daily driver AND getting a web browser going on that platform. May 26 00:26:45 sounds correct May 26 00:28:24 jonwil: 'fixing it is actually possible' that really depends on what you call fixing May 26 00:28:31 tls 1.2 is hardly the only thing that is missing/broken May 26 00:28:53 but again, I will refrain from further comments since I don't think it's constructive ;) May 26 00:29:19 The FF24 browser engine is not perfect but it still improves a lot over current microb-engine. May 26 00:29:45 and you will have to go over all the CVEs since firefox 24 :( May 26 00:31:20 oh, I've also tried to ask a couple of times in mozilla irc about the current state of embedding, and I think I've been ignored every time. May 26 00:31:36 So I wonder if there is any current embedding framework for gecko/firefox May 26 00:31:43 they might be moving so fast it is just broken :) May 26 00:35:48 gn May 26 02:06:21 jonwil: ooh I missd your post >>[2018-05-26 Sat 02:06:46] I copied the posts describing the 4 options I came up with into https://pastebin.com/pbMPnBWN<< Thanks a lot buddy May 26 02:08:59 The preferred option would be to get FF24 Gecko into microb-engine. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 26 03:00:02 2018