**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jun 30 03:00:03 2018
Jun 30 06:33:51 <brolin_empey> https://www.asus.com/support/PageNoServer
Jun 30 06:33:51 <brolin_empey> Apparently Asus silently closed their VIP Forum (for use by customers, with one forum per product model) without notifying me even though I had registered and posted on this forum. :-/
Jun 30 06:36:04 <brolin_empey> This page uses conditional client-side scripting to load jQuery from the Asus site instead of from Google if the script runs on a .cn site due to Google being blocked by the Great Firewall of the “People’s Republic of China”.
Jun 30 06:47:54 <brolin_empey> sicelo: KotCzarny: If you have a computer that can (directly) boot from USB, you can use a USB device that emulates a bootable ODD to boot a physical computer from an optical disc image file without using a physical ODD even if GRUB cannot boot the optical disc image file.  I use this product from StarTech but StarTech has discontinued this product without providing an explanation.  I bought the very last of this product that Synnex had. https://www.startech
Jun 30 06:47:54 <brolin_empey> .com/support/S2510BU3ISO
Jun 30 06:48:29 <KotCzarny> grub can boot iso just fine
Jun 30 06:48:45 <KotCzarny> also, his usb ports are fried
Jun 30 06:49:32 <brolin_empey> You can buy a 32-GB 2.5-inch SATA SSD that works with this product for around $25 (USD or maybe CAD) on eBay.
Jun 30 06:49:56 <KotCzarny> also, he is located in south africa which kills everything by shipping costs
Jun 30 06:50:18 <KotCzarny> also, x40 uses 1.8" drives, not 2.5
Jun 30 06:50:52 <KotCzarny> i personally use 1.8" pata to msata adapter and use 32gb samsung card
Jun 30 06:51:41 <KotCzarny> makes x40 fly (then bump on cpu ceiling)
Jun 30 06:53:14 <Maxdamantus> GRUB can't boot arbitrary ISOs.
Jun 30 06:53:36 <Maxdamantus> unless the OS is using BIOS to access the CD drive.
Jun 30 06:54:19 <KotCzarny> maxd: if the os is only loading kernel+ramdisk it's fine
Jun 30 06:55:37 <Maxdamantus> Depends on the system. If you're talking about some Linux install disc, those are usually produced in such a way that they are fairly agnostic about the source of the CD data.
Jun 30 06:56:04 <KotCzarny> it was in the context of UBD or something
Jun 30 07:16:26 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: I just lost the long reply I was writing to you because the Quassel IRC client suddenly died because my computer ran out of memory again because I cannot have more than 8 GiB of main memory unless I upgrade from a Core 2 era (Socket T AKA LGA775 motherboard) computer.  So now I have to rewrite the whole reply I was writing.  Sigh.
Jun 30 07:16:51 * KotCzarny laughs at brolin_empey from his 1.5GB totin' x40 :P
Jun 30 07:17:57 * KotCzarny mumbles ..spoiledbrats..
Jun 30 07:18:59 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: My Latitude X1 has 2 GiB of main memory, which is 0.5 GiB more than your ThinkPad X40. :-P
Jun 30 07:26:52 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: As Maxdamantus said, GRUB cannot boot all optical disc image files (.iso files).  I think there used to be and maybe still is a note about this in the topic of the GRUB channel on freenode.  I know that the USB ports on the ThinkPad X40 of sicelo are broken.  That is why I said “If you have a computer that can (directly) boot from USB”.  I know that sicelo lives in Africa.  I know that the ThinkPad X40 uses a 1.8-inch PATA HDD/SSD because we 
Jun 30 07:26:52 <brolin_empey> have already discussed this subject.  “this product” was in the context of the StarTech product I mentioned, not a computer that uses this StarTech product.
Jun 30 07:30:22 <brolin_empey> Even if you can boot from a physical ODD or from an optical disc image file on an HDD, booting from a solid-state virtual ODD such as this StarTech product using an SSD instead of an HDD is probably the fastest way to boot a physical computer from an optical disc (image file) because there is no seek time.
Jun 30 07:57:39 <brolin_empey> I have a long weekend because of Canada Day on July 1, think I should finally buy a current x86-64 desktop computer to replace my Core 2 era desktop computer.  I chose this model of motherboard months ago, maybe already at least six months ago: https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Motherboards/PRIME-B250M-C-CSM/specifications/ Other than use of a fan and the lack of support for ECC RAM, is there any reason I should not choose this model of motherboard?  I guess I 
Jun 30 07:57:39 <brolin_empey> should research if there is any firmware lameness such as Secure Boot (sic) being locked on because I am used to Core 2 era and earlier computers that still use BIOS instead of EFI.
Jun 30 08:05:22 <Maxdamantus> I'd be extremely surprised if you could buy just a motherboard that had Secure Boot locked on.
Jun 30 08:05:55 * Maxdamantus wonders if people even sell laptops with Secure Boot locked on.
Jun 30 08:06:08 <Maxdamantus> ("locked on" as in no way to disable it)
Jun 30 11:06:19 <sicelo> yay! i got sound on the X40 again .. with alsa only. no idea where pulseaudio fails
Jun 30 11:06:31 <KotCzarny> ~poettering
Jun 30 11:06:31 <infobot> 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal
Jun 30 11:06:35 <KotCzarny> here ^
Jun 30 11:06:36 <KotCzarny> ;)
Jun 30 11:08:24 <sicelo> well, alsa itself has been having issues. i had to `alsactl init`
Jun 30 11:08:59 <sicelo> i'll have to get PA work at some point for those applications that hneed it, such as FF, iirc
Jun 30 11:09:19 * Maxdamantus uses FF without PA.
Jun 30 11:09:19 <sicelo> i agree PA sucks, and sucks that FF should depend on it
Jun 30 11:09:21 <KotCzarny> look for pawrapper
Jun 30 11:09:41 <KotCzarny> apulse or something
Jun 30 11:09:56 <KotCzarny> it allows to run apps requiring PA to run on plain alsa system
Jun 30 11:10:25 <sicelo> i'm even more annoyed that there is so much s/w depending on network manager unnecessarily. tried to install dino-im (xmpp client) and it wanted to pull in network manager on debian. i have no need for NM as yet, so i went with gajim instead
Jun 30 11:10:50 * Maxdamantus doesn't think he's even using anything like pawrapper around his Firefox.
Jun 30 11:10:59 <sicelo>  i will try apulse. i saw it in passing a few days ago.  hope it will work 
Jun 30 11:11:11 <KotCzarny> maxd: since a few revisions ff requires pa for any audio output
Jun 30 11:11:13 <KotCzarny> which is sad
Jun 30 11:11:14 <sicelo> let /me actually try FF now that alsa is working (with no pulse)
Jun 30 11:11:31 <KotCzarny> i wonder how much did they pay for that
Jun 30 11:11:40 <Maxdamantus> Hm .. okay, maybe my version is a bit old then (58)
Jun 30 11:12:02 <KotCzarny> maxd: might be also your distro uses own compiled version
Jun 30 11:12:11 <KotCzarny> although then they would have to change the name
Jun 30 11:12:31 <Maxdamantus> I'm using it through nix.
Jun 30 11:13:27 <sicelo> FF 60.0.2 here. no sound 
Jun 30 11:14:34 <KotCzarny> they (ff) had alsa and pa in parallel for few revisions, then they've dropped alsa completely (although i think it still can be recompiled to use it)
Jun 30 11:15:15 <KotCzarny> https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse#firefox-58-tabs-crashing-when-trying-to-play-audio
Jun 30 11:15:16 <KotCzarny> hehe
Jun 30 11:16:15 <Maxdamantus> the nix expression for firefox 61 still includes options around using pulse/alsa.
Jun 30 11:16:52 <sicelo> g2g, will be back soon
Jun 30 11:29:05 <Maxdamantus> Seems to still work in 61
Jun 30 11:29:24 <KotCzarny> using stock ff or something packaged?
Jun 30 11:29:39 <Maxdamantus> Using the current build of nixpkgs master.
Jun 30 11:29:50 <Maxdamantus> well, the build of current nixpkgs master.
Jun 30 11:29:58 <Maxdamantus> no package overrides.
Jun 30 11:30:49 <Maxdamantus> fwiw, NixOS itself systemd and pretty sure it normally uses pulseaudio, so it's not like it's a weird build that excludes PA.
Jun 30 11:31:06 <Maxdamantus> NixOS itself uses systemd*
Jun 30 11:31:12 <Maxdamantus> (I'm not using NixOS though, just nix)
Jun 30 11:31:37 <Maxdamantus> (and I'm not running any PA server/wrapper)
Jun 30 11:37:00 <KotCzarny> mfking debian, gtk3 tries to install systemd (along with 51 other packages)
Jun 30 11:51:10 <sicelo> heh
Jun 30 11:51:29 <Wizzup> KotCzarny: devuan?
Jun 30 11:52:05 <KotCzarny> wizzup, will be probably if i get angry a bit more
Jun 30 11:52:23 <KotCzarny> or i will just reinstall that vm with slackware
Jun 30 11:52:32 <Wizzup> *cough* gentoo :P 
Jun 30 11:52:42 <KotCzarny> gento got 'hacked' yesterday
Jun 30 11:52:43 <KotCzarny> :P
Jun 30 11:53:13 <sicelo> yeah i saw some post
Jun 30 11:55:09 <buZz> link? :)
Jun 30 11:55:22 <buZz> ah https://thehackernews.com/2018/06/gentoo-linux-github.html
Jun 30 11:55:26 <Wizzup> KotCzarny: the github orga of gentoo-mirror iirc
Jun 30 11:55:33 <Wizzup> portage is signed, so nbd
Jun 30 11:57:46 <buZz> https://archive.is/NSKrT 
Jun 30 11:57:47 <buZz> hehe
Jun 30 12:05:01 <DocScrutinizer05> not that troll again :-/
Jun 30 12:05:24 <DocScrutinizer05> aa maybe that troll would use the other N word
Jun 30 12:20:00 <Maxdamantus> 23:55 < Wizzup> portage is signed, so nbd
Jun 30 12:20:21 <Maxdamantus> Though I doubt many people who actually use the git mirror of portage will check the signatures.
Jun 30 12:22:24 <Maxdamantus> in fact, I don't see any tags/signatures in my clone of it.
Jun 30 12:22:38 <Maxdamantus> (which was last updated in march, apparently)
Jun 30 12:22:51 * Maxdamantus has mostly preferred using nix for package management
Jun 30 12:26:47 <Wizzup> Maxdamantus: the sw checks that afaik
Jun 30 12:27:07 <Maxdamantus> What sw? git?
Jun 30 12:27:17 <Wizzup> portage...
Jun 30 12:28:19 <Maxdamantus> I'd be slightly surprised by that .. I'd've imagined the point of using git is that you don't need to have portage do the update for you.
Jun 30 12:28:29 <Wizzup> you don't use it.
Jun 30 12:28:31 <Wizzup> use git
Jun 30 12:28:36 <Wizzup> you write 'emerge --sync'
Jun 30 12:28:43 <Wizzup> or eix-sync.
Jun 30 12:28:48 <Maxdamantus> you just do `cd /usr/portage && git fetch && git checkout remotes/origin/master`
Jun 30 12:29:07 <Wizzup> I have never seen any guide recommending that.
Jun 30 12:29:10 <Maxdamantus> and then `eix-sync --update` or something.
Jun 30 12:29:12 <Wizzup> That's quite insane.
Jun 30 12:31:40 <Maxdamantus> eix-update, rather
Jun 30 12:32:49 <Wizzup> who told you to not just use eix-sync or emerge --sync?
Jun 30 12:33:08 <Maxdamantus> Noone. Just logic.
Jun 30 12:33:22 <Maxdamantus> /usr/portage just contains some files.
Jun 30 12:33:26 <Wizzup> Ok, so you're doing it entirely wrong. Yes, then you're doing it wrong.
Jun 30 12:33:32 <Maxdamantus> emerge reads those files.
Jun 30 12:33:37 <Wizzup> Even still, they just did a 'git push -f'. So git would still scream.
Jun 30 12:33:53 <Maxdamantus> Scream?
Jun 30 12:34:06 <Wizzup> ever tried to force push and then pull from another machine?
Jun 30 12:34:18 <Maxdamantus> 00:28:47 < Maxdamantus> you just do `cd /usr/portage && git fetch && git checkout remotes/origin/master`
Jun 30 12:34:43 <Maxdamantus> I don't pull, but sure .. if someone is silly enough to use the `pull` functionality in git, they'll have to deal with a bunch of stupid problems.
Jun 30 12:34:48 <Wizzup> maybe just do 'rm -rf /*' yourself if you insist on doing it wrong
Jun 30 12:34:52 * Wizzup out
Jun 30 12:35:32 <Maxdamantus> Well, the mechanism I gave above doesn't have any issues with force pushes .. it'll just note that teh update was a force push when I do `git fetch`
Jun 30 12:36:11 <Maxdamantus> Since I'm not actually developing the ebuilds, I have no reason to do something like pull/merge.
Jun 30 12:36:22 <Maxdamantus> and again, "pull" functionality in git is very silly; noone should use it.
Jun 30 12:37:22 <Maxdamantus> remote tracking/pull/etc is just a waste of complexity that gives no real gain over the functionality already provided by fetch/merge/checkout
Jun 30 12:37:31 * KotCzarny always does pulls
Jun 30 12:38:24 <Wizzup> yep, pull --rebase and pull --ff-only ftw
Jun 30 12:38:45 <Maxdamantus> git fetch && git rebase remotes/origin/master
Jun 30 12:38:53 <Wizzup> which still doesn't justify not using the right tools to fetch portage.
Jun 30 12:39:02 <Wizzup> there's a ton of ways you can fuck up anything, and you just found one of them.
Jun 30 12:39:12 <Wizzup> I don't see how this is relevant
Jun 30 12:39:16 <Maxdamantus> (personally, I wouldn't do both of those things in the same command .. I would fetch and see what other people have changed before considering to rebase)
Jun 30 12:40:03 <Maxdamantus> So where does portage find these signatures in git?
Jun 30 12:40:11 <Maxdamantus> I can't seem to find much documentation about actually using git.
Jun 30 12:40:18 <Maxdamantus> s/much/any/
Jun 30 12:40:18 <infobot> Maxdamantus meant: I can't seem to find any documentation about actually using git.
Jun 30 12:40:32 <Maxdamantus> just some people suggesting that it might be possible in some forums.
Jun 30 12:40:43 <Wizzup> that's because you always use emerge --sync, and you can use git if you specify it in repos.conf
Jun 30 12:41:10 <Wizzup> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki//etc/portage/repos.conf sync-uri
Jun 30 12:41:52 <Wizzup> and I checked: using git doesn't verify the sigs - there are patches for it, but it's not done by default. good that I use webrsync and rsync still :) 
Jun 30 12:42:08 <Wizzup> using a git sync-uri doesn't*
Jun 30 12:42:35 <Maxdamantus> Well, based on what I see from march, it doesn't even have any signatures.
Jun 30 12:43:23 <Wizzup> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Portage/Repository_Verification
Jun 30 12:43:24 <Maxdamantus> My current remotes/origin/master is a017f8a1db67ba0ca7149ae957b6aa5268bd4e31 , which doesn't have a signature in the commit message, and doesn't seem to manipulate anything in the tree that looks like a signature.
Jun 30 12:43:41 <Wizzup> The verification starts at the top-level Manifest, that is a Manifest file located in root directory of the ebuild repository. This file must contain a valid OpenPGP signature which is verified before any other file is read from the repository. If the signature passes verification, the Manifest tree is read recursively. 
Jun 30 12:43:50 <Wizzup> you're assuming that the git commits are signed instead
Jun 30 12:44:59 <Maxdamantus> That's under rsync.
Jun 30 12:45:14 <Maxdamantus> Seems like a weird way to deal with signatures in git.
Jun 30 12:45:17 <Wizzup> Manifest files are just files. They are always synced.
Jun 30 12:45:20 <Wizzup> >>>in git<<<
Jun 30 12:45:37 <Wizzup> You're assumption that git fits everyones needs here is wrong, therefore there needs to be a solution that covers more than just git
Jun 30 12:45:41 <Wizzup> Your*
Jun 30 12:45:42 <Maxdamantus> since every update to the master branch would need to include an update to the "Manifest" file.
Jun 30 12:47:06 <Wizzup> this is how manifest files in portage have worked at least 10 years
Jun 30 12:47:08 <Wizzup> probably longer.
Jun 30 12:50:26 <Maxdamantus> but given that the development itself seems to happen in git, presumably such Manifest files would just be generated when updating the trees from git.
Jun 30 12:52:09 <Maxdamantus> https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/commit/?id=8f7e30e3882709d6254b8bba8c2713700d5dcabf
Jun 30 12:52:16 <Maxdamantus> current master
Jun 30 12:52:34 <Maxdamantus> Doesn't involve some root signature mechanism.
Jun 30 12:53:47 <Maxdamantus> anyway, this is all irrelevant. As we've already established, neither my way of updating portage through git nor the "actual" way (currently) involves signature verification.
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