**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 20 03:00:01 2018
Sep 20 05:24:02 <Vajb> what is the editor of choice if you use linux for coding? Vim?
Sep 20 05:25:09 <Vajb> in windows I've been using Eclipse and VS code, but now I installed Devuan ascii to another laptop and thought to try it out
Sep 20 05:30:30 <KotCzarny> mcedit
Sep 20 05:30:31 <KotCzarny> :)
Sep 20 05:30:37 <felangga> @Vajb I always use atom :)
Sep 20 05:30:59 <felangga> but it's bit heavy
Sep 20 05:31:10 <KotCzarny> mcedit is included 'for free' with mc
Sep 20 05:31:14 <felangga> another choice is sublime, but it not free
Sep 20 05:35:18 <Vajb> mc is midnight commander?
Sep 20 05:35:22 <KotCzarny> yup
Sep 20 05:35:52 <KotCzarny> it is very flexible
Sep 20 05:36:07 <KotCzarny> you can customize menu to have few handy actions available
Sep 20 05:36:38 <KotCzarny> ie. diffing files of choice, calling help, syncing files whatever one could need
Sep 20 05:37:58 <KotCzarny> but if you are used to some IDE (ie. eclipse), you might find it lacking autocompleting functions
Sep 20 05:38:32 <KotCzarny> bbl
Sep 20 05:41:12 <Vajb> im not sure yet which one like more. Notepad++ or some IDE. Both have their moments
Sep 20 05:41:55 <Vajb> and i rather use light software, because my laptop is not newest model
Sep 20 06:30:27 * Maxdamantus works as a mostly-Java programmer and practically always uses vim.
Sep 20 06:31:03 <Maxdamantus> Though I normally have eclipse open for some static analysis tasks, and automatically adding imports.
Sep 20 06:32:01 * Oksana usually uses vim, but dislikes vim's heavy documentation on Maemo 5 - takes up space, I think...
Sep 20 06:32:25 * Maxdamantus has maemo all on eMMC so doesn't care about such things.
Sep 20 06:33:08 <Maxdamantus> The main issue I have on maemo though is that my terminal seems to exit if I press escape too quickly, which happens frequently in vim.
Sep 20 06:33:14 <Maxdamantus> (so I intentionally slow my input down)
Sep 20 06:33:53 * Maxdamantus hasn't got around to figuring out why that happens.
Sep 20 06:37:02 <Oksana> Does pressing escape in terminal, without vim, make terminal exit? Not for me, how about you?
Sep 20 06:37:36 <Maxdamantus> Holding it down does.
Sep 20 06:37:51 <Maxdamantus> It doesn't exit if I just press it once.
Sep 20 06:38:02 * Oksana tries to reproduce: X Term, vim .zebra.log, Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc..., nothing happens
Sep 20 06:38:27 <Oksana> Do you have escape mapped to hardware keyboard? Because I am just pressing Esc on touchscreen, in X Term
Sep 20 06:38:27 <Maxdamantus> Are you pressing a key, or the button on the screen?
Sep 20 06:38:34 <Maxdamantus> Yes, mapped to a key.
Sep 20 06:38:54 <Maxdamantus> I don't think it happens if I touch the button rapidly.
Sep 20 06:39:28 <Oksana> Does it happen on your desktop, if you open Terminal and hold down Escape on keyboard?
Sep 20 06:39:38 <Maxdamantus> Actually, I figured out a while ago that it happens to some other applications too.
Sep 20 06:39:58 <Maxdamantus> So it'll be the WM that does it, not the terminal itself.
Sep 20 06:40:07 <Oksana> As in, is it intended functionality of X Term, or is it a bug, or is it feature of window manager?
Sep 20 06:40:12 <Maxdamantus> or else some library in Maemo or something.
Sep 20 06:40:28 <Maxdamantus> It happens to Opera too.
Sep 20 06:40:45 <Maxdamantus> and the "Settings" dialogue.
Sep 20 06:41:00 <Maxdamantus> but iirc it doesn't happen to things like gvim or urxvt.
Sep 20 06:41:15 <Maxdamantus> So maybe it's something in Maemo's libgtk or something.
Sep 20 06:41:42 <Oksana> Gvim is open-source, right? Should be possible to look into what they are doing with their window, to make it Esc-proof?
Sep 20 06:42:07 <Oksana> Compare it side-by-side with something else that does close when Esc is held down.
Sep 20 06:43:20 <Maxdamantus> Doesn't happen to the xterm in debian either.
Sep 20 06:43:42 <Maxdamantus> So I don't think there's anything that makes it "esc-proof" .. I think the maemo programs just decide to exit under those circumstances for some reason.
Sep 20 06:45:06 <Oksana> But X Term in Maemo isn't exactly the same as X Term in Debian, right? So, there may be window flags involved, similarly to rotate-or-not flags.
Sep 20 06:47:10 <Maxdamantus> I remember running xterm under some X11 tracing program a while ago and I don't think I could see anything odd happening there, except for the application destroying its window.
Sep 20 06:55:45 <Juesto> Oksana: Xterm in x11 is way different than osso-xterm, yes
Sep 20 06:56:19 <Juesto> Esc should work for closing?
Sep 20 06:57:04 <Juesto> Oksana: you can just delete vim manpages i guess :)
Sep 20 06:57:42 <Juesto> i use:
Sep 20 06:57:53 <Juesto> Windows: notepad++
Sep 20 06:58:07 <Juesto> Mac: TextWrangler
Sep 20 06:58:44 <Juesto> Linux: gnome 2 gedit/mate's pluma or xfce mousepad or leafpad
Sep 20 06:59:07 <Juesto> *nix/posix cli: nano
Sep 20 06:59:39 <Juesto> gnome 3 is way too bloated
Sep 20 07:01:44 * Oksana agrees about Gnome 3, though didn't use it much if at all
Sep 20 07:08:46 <Juesto> gtk3 mainly
Sep 20 07:08:58 <Juesto> mate or xfce are better choices
Sep 20 07:09:13 <Juesto> lxde is outdated
Sep 20 07:12:33 <Juesto> how it's going Oksana?
Sep 20 07:14:12 <Oksana> Lots of things to do.
Sep 20 11:49:06 <Vajb> oh yes i forgot gedit
Sep 20 11:52:38 <sixwheeledbeast> Vajb: I use vi for terminal or Pluma which is MATE's fork of gedit.
Sep 20 11:55:38 <sixwheeledbeast> I don't seem to get on with nano which seems to be a default option on some distros.
Sep 20 12:03:15 <Vajb> i use nano for system tweaks only
Sep 20 12:03:39 <Vajb> just tried pluma coz it was installed by default
Sep 20 12:03:50 <Vajb> it misses one feature that i like
Sep 20 12:04:07 <Vajb> doubling brackets and quotes etc
Sep 20 12:04:35 <KotCzarny> mcedit highlights brackets
Sep 20 12:05:19 <sixwheeledbeast> doubling brackets?
Sep 20 12:05:39 <Maxdamantus> Presumably inserting ')' after typing '('
Sep 20 12:06:07 <Maxdamantus> and hoping that you don't move the cursor before you actually type the ')' or something, dunno.
Sep 20 12:06:21 * Maxdamantus has always found that annoying in editors that have it.
Sep 20 12:06:31 * Maxdamantus also struggles to see the practical use.
Sep 20 12:06:32 <KotCzarny> +1
Sep 20 12:06:46 <KotCzarny> highlighting is ok tho
Sep 20 12:07:02 <KotCzarny> helps finding bigger scopes easily
Sep 20 12:07:09 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, even vim highlights.
Sep 20 12:07:23 <Vajb> yeah, what Maxdamantus said
Sep 20 12:07:52 <Vajb> helps keeping things organized for me
Sep 20 12:08:55 <sixwheeledbeast> I don't want to have things inserted for me, it does highlight the appropriate brackets if you are on that line
Sep 20 12:09:30 <Vajb> yeah i saw highlighting it is good feature too
Sep 20 12:09:59 <Maxdamantus> '%' is one of my main navigation features in vim.
Sep 20 12:10:09 <Maxdamantus> (jump to corresponding bracket/brace)
Sep 20 12:10:24 <KotCzarny> yup, same for mcedit
Sep 20 12:10:47 <Vajb> vim seems like overly complicated
Sep 20 12:11:19 <sixwheeledbeast> You may find a plugin that adds auto bracket closure for pluma.
Sep 20 12:11:25 <Vajb> i can't help but think that it was designed for very specific keyboardlayout
Sep 20 12:11:56 <Maxdamantus> I really feel that it's the opposite WRT layout.
Sep 20 12:12:04 <Vajb> i use finnish keyboard so things are not that convenient to get
Sep 20 12:12:13 <Maxdamantus> vim works really well even on N900 (disregarding my escape issue I mentioned that I have)
Sep 20 12:12:21 <Maxdamantus> because it *doesn't* assume things about the keyboard.
Sep 20 12:12:40 <Maxdamantus> eg, vim doesn't require combinations involving things like alt/meta, ctrl, etc
Sep 20 12:12:43 <KotCzarny> in mcedit it's alt-b (going to matching bracket)
Sep 20 12:12:48 <Maxdamantus> ^
Sep 20 12:13:03 <Maxdamantus> Pretty much every other editing system does assume those tricky combinations.
Sep 20 12:13:28 <KotCzarny> simply because there are many functions and only so many keys
Sep 20 12:13:31 <Maxdamantus> I use Dvorak, and have not done any remapping in vim.
Sep 20 12:13:45 <Vajb> i need combination for each and every type of bracket for example
Sep 20 12:13:47 <KotCzarny> gtk has one nice feature of being able to remap bindings 
Sep 20 12:14:36 <KotCzarny> but in mcedit you have menu available on click as a secondary way of accessing it
Sep 20 12:14:39 * Vajb should invest on learning keyboard shortcuts...
Sep 20 12:14:54 <KotCzarny> although, as i've said, highlighting is enough
Sep 20 12:15:38 <Vajb> hehe i can imagine you thoughts of some of the ide's i've tried
Sep 20 12:15:40 <Maxdamantus> I feel like if one were to actually invest in learning shortcuts, might as well just invest in learning vim navigation.
Sep 20 12:15:52 <Vajb> they can insert even methods for you
Sep 20 12:16:01 <Maxdamantus> since probably all popular editors have plugins for vim-style input.
Sep 20 12:16:24 <KotCzarny> learning shortcuts is only worthwhile for things you actually use/need
Sep 20 12:16:28 <KotCzarny> ie. undo/redo
Sep 20 12:16:39 <KotCzarny> and maybe save/save as
Sep 20 12:16:53 <sixwheeledbeast> I like using Alt to shift lines about in pluma
Sep 20 12:17:14 <Vajb> just today i learned very convenient shortcut for web browsing alt+left arrow
Sep 20 12:17:15 <KotCzarny> mark/move block
Sep 20 19:38:29 <Creteil> Hi all
Sep 20 19:38:47 <Creteil> What is the problem ? : Sorry, it seems that you are using an IP address or a proxy that is listed in the forum anti spam blacklist.
Sep 20 19:38:48 <Creteil> Feel free to contact our staff on irc freenode #maemo channel.
Sep 20 19:39:21 <KotCzarny> ~unbanip
Sep 20 19:39:22 <infobot> rumour has it, unbanip is please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request, or see ~techstaff, or see https://www.stopforumspam.com/removal, or if your ip is dynamic, try changing it, or tags: RBL, tmo IP blocked, spam
Sep 20 19:40:19 <Creteil> I don't see the fact that my IP (fixed) used for spamming the Maemo forum...
Sep 20 19:41:09 <Creteil> It apear suddenly when I was reading a thread and clicking on next page the message occur.
Sep 20 21:07:42 <jayspeer> hello! new n900 owner and I have problem trying to install emacs from extras-devel. It says I'm missing libxpm4 but I simply can't figure out how to install it...
Sep 20 21:08:02 <KotCzarny> is it in repos?
Sep 20 21:08:22 <jayspeer> it's in here http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/libx/libxpm/
Sep 20 21:10:08 <KotCzarny> maybe it's sdk's repo
Sep 20 21:10:30 <KotCzarny> ~maemo-repos
Sep 20 21:10:30 <infobot> it has been said that maemo-repos is http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories
Sep 20 21:11:04 <jayspeer> there are both packages for i386 and armel there
Sep 20 21:12:23 <KotCzarny> libxpm4 is in nokia's repos
Sep 20 21:12:31 <KotCzarny> you should probably add missing mirrors
Sep 20 21:12:39 <KotCzarny> (as nokia is no more)
Sep 20 21:12:47 <KotCzarny> see the link bot has said
Sep 20 21:12:50 <jayspeer> R.I.P.
Sep 20 21:13:31 <KotCzarny> you can add them either via manual add in app manager or via clicky .install file on that page
Sep 20 21:13:53 <KotCzarny> choose muarf one, linenoise seems to be down
Sep 20 21:14:23 <jayspeer> can I just add them in /etc/apt/sources.list and install via apt-get? or do I have to use app manager?
Sep 20 21:14:36 <KotCzarny> app manager overwrites sources.list
Sep 20 21:14:52 <KotCzarny> so while it would work, it will be gone one next app manager run
Sep 20 21:14:57 <KotCzarny> i think
Sep 20 21:15:08 <jayspeer> ok, dzięki za pomoc :^)
Sep 20 21:15:13 <KotCzarny> also, since you are new, never ever do apt-get upgrade on maemo
Sep 20 21:15:24 <jayspeer> why is that?
Sep 20 21:15:40 <KotCzarny> nokia chose to manage updates in special way
Sep 20 21:15:59 <jayspeer> and if I already did that (like several times)
Sep 20 21:16:02 <KotCzarny> which means they should be done via app manager, otherwise there might be some breakage
Sep 20 21:16:10 <KotCzarny> :)
Sep 20 21:16:31 <KotCzarny> new device, doing bad things is a good way to learn
Sep 20 21:17:01 <jayspeer> I was looking for pocket linux for a while now. Maybe I'll switch to pmOS
Sep 20 21:17:15 <KotCzarny> anyway, you can add the muarf mirrors manually and do apt magic if you like
Sep 20 21:17:44 <jayspeer> I should propably disable app manager then if I am not mistaken
Sep 20 21:17:52 <KotCzarny> nah
Sep 20 21:18:01 <KotCzarny> just be aware what i've said
Sep 20 21:18:08 <KotCzarny> as long it works, dont worry
Sep 20 21:18:22 <jayspeer> I'll give a message when it stops :p
Sep 20 21:19:33 <KotCzarny> also, the usual new-maemo-user package (just for information):
Sep 20 21:19:37 <KotCzarny> ~flashing
Sep 20 21:19:37 <infobot> it has been said that maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh; or see ~flashing-cmdline, or see ~lazyflashing
Sep 20 21:19:41 <KotCzarny> ~cssu
Sep 20 21:19:42 <infobot> cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)
Sep 20 21:20:22 <KotCzarny> and of course make sure you add talk.maemo.org and wiki.maemo.org to your bookmarks
Sep 20 21:21:12 <jayspeer> Will do! thanks again
Sep 20 21:26:14 <sicelo> jayspeer: you might also want to look at ameo Leste
Sep 20 21:26:14 <sicelo> *Maemo Leste, rather
Sep 20 21:27:08 <jayspeer> looked at it. I need phone calls for another month or two. when it's no longer the case i'm diving into postmarketOS
Sep 20 21:29:52 <jayspeer> if anyone is interested https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Nokia_N900
Sep 20 22:00:21 <luke-jr> good to see my old gps2/3 code getting used :D
Sep 20 22:04:48 <sicelo> :)
Sep 21 01:49:37 <Oksana> ~leste
Sep 21 01:49:45 <Oksana> ~maemo leste
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 21 03:00:01 2018