**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 08 02:59:56 2019
Mar 08 09:58:11 <ceene> i'm just going to use you guys to rant a bit
Mar 08 09:58:24 <ceene> I hate latex with the same passion I love it
Mar 08 09:58:55 <ceene> I've spent 2 hours to find the issue that was breaking my document, and it was an unescaped _ in text
Mar 08 10:12:47 <bencoh> :)
Mar 08 10:19:27 <ceene> and it's not even fixed yet
Mar 08 10:19:34 <ceene> i'm gonna end up rewriting this shit on word
Mar 08 10:21:04 <bencoh> aww, noo :/
Mar 08 10:21:46 <ceene> i have this thing to document a few things at work
Mar 08 10:21:51 <ceene> and some of the sections are autogenerated from code
Mar 08 10:21:56 <ceene> it's pretty and automatic
Mar 08 10:22:20 <ceene> but since a couple of days it doesn't work
Mar 08 10:22:28 <ceene> and I don't know fking why
Mar 08 10:22:53 <ceene> there's no reason, no reasonable error, no explanation
Mar 08 10:31:49 <Maxdamantus> git bisect?
Mar 08 10:32:59 <ceene> I already know which is the thing that makes it fail
Mar 08 10:33:35 <ceene> but I didn't know the exact underlying reason
Mar 08 10:33:44 <ceene> i think it's the underscores
Mar 08 10:34:56 * Maxdamantus has wondered when TeX will be replaced.
Mar 08 10:35:18 <ceene> i think it's pretty when it works
Mar 08 10:35:25 <ceene> but getting it to really work is a pain in the ass
Mar 08 10:35:41 <ceene> i don't think it's worth the effort
Mar 08 10:37:28 <Maxdamantus> I think the basic principle behind TeX is desirable: having a programming system for concisely creating printable documents, where various stylistic things are just handled by normal abstractions you have in programming (eg, functions)
Mar 08 10:37:41 <Maxdamantus> The way it works just happens to be essentially magical.
Mar 08 10:39:05 <Maxdamantus> because it was designed a long time ago, when a lot of programming concepts were either still being developed, or were just difficult to implement.
Mar 08 10:39:09 <ceene> the language is ugly, you always need to load and undefined number of packages, but sometimes they conflict one with the other or must be included in a very specific order, but that order may conflict with some other package you need
Mar 08 10:40:21 <Maxdamantus> so instead of figuring out how to express everything cleanly using something like a lazy programming language that just fundamentally does function application (which is basically all you need), it's based on macro expansion, which is very hard to reason about.
Mar 08 10:41:54 <Maxdamantus> really, all you need is some usable syntax for expressing function application, function expressions, and variable binding, and you basically have the same level of power as the TeX language.
Mar 08 10:42:54 <Maxdamantus> just need to then provide some typesetting primitives (which TeX does in its own system), and some higher-level typesetting library (like LaTeX), and some module system for referring to third-party libraries.
Mar 08 10:43:01 <ceene> most of the time you don't really need something like that
Mar 08 10:43:07 <ceene> you only need a sensible way to write a table
Mar 08 10:43:47 <Maxdamantus> Yes, but unless you have "make a table" as a primitive operation, you need some sort of abstraction to do that.
Mar 08 10:44:15 <Maxdamantus> and having "make a table" as a primitive operation would be a very inflexible system.
Mar 08 10:44:27 <ceene> yep, but latex/tex is supposedly about how you can separate content from presentation, but that is basically false
Mar 08 10:44:31 <Maxdamantus> since practically everything requires special support from the base system.
Mar 08 10:44:52 <ceene> given that you need to splatter all your text with arcane commands
Mar 08 10:46:58 <Maxdamantus> Having it without the ability to write abstractions is basically like writing TeX, but without being able to write things like \def
Mar 08 10:47:25 <Maxdamantus> Practically noone writes plain TeX, and the ones that do will probably be using \def
Mar 08 10:47:55 <KotCzarny> so, basically html+css but with more up-in-the-ass granularity?
Mar 08 10:48:00 <Maxdamantus> LaTeX is just that common library on top of TeX, which depends on being able to write abstractions.
Mar 08 10:48:06 <KotCzarny> well, xml+css
Mar 08 10:48:27 <ceene> well, yes, that seems more sensible than latex to be honest
Mar 08 10:48:51 <ceene> most of the time you want to write paragraph after paragraph of text, why the hell do I have to add \paragraph{} ?
Mar 08 10:48:55 <ceene> markdown is even better
Mar 08 10:49:20 <ceene> because the inevitable commands are basically non code, so it doesn't interfere with the textual visualization
Mar 08 10:49:27 <KotCzarny> last time i had to create a folder out of products, i just created html that i later converted to pdf and set it to printing company
Mar 08 10:49:57 <KotCzarny> so basically: sql+files -> php -> html -> pdf -> printing
Mar 08 10:50:14 <Maxdamantus> So PHP is where you get your abstraction from.
Mar 08 10:50:43 <Maxdamantus> I don't think HTML/CSS alone is sufficient for replacing LaTeX as it's used, eg, in academia.
Mar 08 10:51:25 <KotCzarny> still, it was enough, and flexible at that
Mar 08 10:51:44 <KotCzarny> any changes were easy to add and were seen instantly
Mar 08 10:51:58 <Maxdamantus> Right, it's very flexible, because you've got an actual programming language in the pipeline: PHP
Mar 08 10:52:16 <KotCzarny> some say php isnt programming language
Mar 08 10:52:17 <KotCzarny> ;)
Mar 08 10:52:24 <KotCzarny> but preprocessor
Mar 08 10:52:25 <Maxdamantus> So you're fully capable of separating the "content" from the "display"
Mar 08 10:52:51 <Maxdamantus> ie, you're not having to write something like "indent 5px" at the beginning of every paragraph.
Mar 08 10:53:03 <KotCzarny> that's css's work
Mar 08 10:53:09 <Maxdamantus> or denote classes that effectively say the same thing.
Mar 08 10:55:44 <Maxdamantus> anyway, here's something I was working on at one point (I'm not the primary author), very dubious of trying to write this in pure HTML/CSS: https://maxdamantus.eu.org/42.pdf
Mar 08 10:56:51 <KotCzarny> imo it's very doable with html+css
Mar 08 10:57:00 <Maxdamantus> It's obviously *do*able
Mar 08 10:57:03 <Maxdamantus> but is it maintainable?
Mar 08 10:57:06 <KotCzarny> yes
Mar 08 10:57:10 <KotCzarny> if you throw php at it too
Mar 08 10:57:16 <KotCzarny> to generate things in proper places
Mar 08 10:57:18 <Maxdamantus> You can obviously write Linux in x86 assembly
Mar 08 10:57:21 <Maxdamantus> but is it maintainable?
Mar 08 10:57:46 <KotCzarny> but yes, i think you can write it quite cleanly in pure html+css
Mar 08 10:57:52 <Maxdamantus> Sure, if you use PHP instead of LaTeX, you can do whatever you want with it.
Mar 08 10:58:04 <Maxdamantus> You can write a layout system in PHP that just figures out where every character goes.
Mar 08 10:58:24 <Maxdamantus> you could even just write a font renderer in PHP, so you don't have to rely on font handling in the HTML being accurate.
Mar 08 10:58:29 <KotCzarny> any preprocessing makes it much easier. that i agree
Mar 08 10:59:00 <ceene> the thing is that latex doesn't really does a good job in the end
Mar 08 10:59:02 <Maxdamantus> but for all of that, you need libraries, so you need to either write it yourself, or rely on someone else having written it. That's the part that you actually get with LaTeX: someone else has already written a bunch of reusable layout combinators.
Mar 08 10:59:11 <KotCzarny> btw. what's that 'FOO' on next-to-last page?
Mar 08 10:59:19 <KotCzarny> something left behind?
Mar 08 10:59:41 <ceene> https://i.imgur.com/JnpCI6d.png
Mar 08 10:59:42 <Maxdamantus> Can't remember. That whole document is a WIP.
Mar 08 10:59:43 <ceene> solve this
Mar 08 10:59:46 <KotCzarny> or spacer put there so big cells go on next page
Mar 08 10:59:49 <Maxdamantus> can probably look at it in git
Mar 08 11:01:00 <KotCzarny> nah, got own work to do, eh
Mar 08 11:01:47 <ceene> why is that <we over the border of the box?
Mar 08 11:02:03 <Maxdamantus> ceene: because we weren't caring about exact positioning issues at the time.
Mar 08 11:02:05 <ceene> why do you have to manually tweak that? is it because < is somehow a special character?
Mar 08 11:02:20 <ceene> but that's the thing, you should have to care about that
Mar 08 11:02:33 <ceene> s/should have/shouldn't have/
Mar 08 11:02:33 <infobot> ceene meant: but that's the thing, you shouldn't have to care about that
Mar 08 11:02:39 <Maxdamantus> ceene: the document is mostly defined semantically, positioning issues can be fixed by mostly just fixing the combinators.
Mar 08 11:02:47 <Maxdamantus> ceene: it's really not important for a WIP.
Mar 08 11:02:53 <Maxdamantus> ceene: should the document really be purple?
Mar 08 11:02:58 <KotCzarny> :)
Mar 08 11:03:07 <KotCzarny> 80/20 rule
Mar 08 11:03:33 <KotCzarny> 80% of work takes 20% of time. remaining 20% takes the remaining 80% of time
Mar 08 11:03:57 <KotCzarny> 'hey, can you put that dot 3px higher and make it glow?'
Mar 08 11:04:03 <ceene> you know what I mean, the presentation is wrong and it's not your fault that latex somehow decided to move that <we a few pixels to the left
Mar 08 11:04:59 <ceene> and thw whole document is astonishing, but why does it fail in something so trivial?
Mar 08 11:06:13 <Maxdamantus> ceene: because with power comes responsibility.
Mar 08 11:07:16 <ceene> you're justifying a bug
Mar 08 11:07:19 <Maxdamantus> ceene: if the system gives you the ability to have fine-grained control over layout (instead of saying, eg, "I'll put whatever you output inside a box which is strictly bigger"), then you have to be careful about things like that.
Mar 08 11:07:55 <ceene> that whole string fits in that box
Mar 08 11:08:00 <KotCzarny> i remember when i was looking for work, trying some big newspaper company
Mar 08 11:08:03 <ceene> the text above and below is alineated
Mar 08 11:08:11 <KotCzarny> they did their webpages PIXEL EXACT
Mar 08 11:08:21 <KotCzarny> with few supported browsers and html+css
Mar 08 11:08:29 <KotCzarny> and css was primitive back then
Mar 08 11:08:34 <ceene> but that line, that doesn't begin with a math character somehow is broken, and there's no reason for it to happen
Mar 08 11:08:37 <KotCzarny> and ie6 still ruling the world
Mar 08 11:08:47 <KotCzarny> luckily i didnt get that job
Mar 08 11:09:08 <ceene> alineated doesn't exist in english?
Mar 08 11:09:15 <ceene> lol
Mar 08 11:09:16 <ceene> aligned
Mar 08 11:09:20 <ceene> i'm an idiot
Mar 08 11:09:22 <KotCzarny> :)
Mar 08 11:10:08 <ceene> that whole string fits in that box, the text above and below is aligned, but that line that doesn't begin with a math character somehow is broken and there's no reason for it to happen
Mar 08 11:10:13 <ceene> much better
Mar 08 11:12:15 <Maxdamantus> The actual reason is because there's a random `\hspace{-2ex}` in front of it.
Mar 08 11:12:25 <KotCzarny> :)
Mar 08 11:12:38 <ceene> lol
Mar 08 11:12:44 <ceene> maybe this time it's just that
Mar 08 11:12:51 <Maxdamantus> for the most part, the TeX code is free of positioning information, that's one of the few exceptions.
Mar 08 11:12:53 <KotCzarny> which means it was a workaround for something else that didnt quite get bug matching rule set
Mar 08 11:12:53 <ceene> but i'm really fed up with that kind of thing that happens just because
Mar 08 11:15:44 <Maxdamantus> \produzione{\XvP\!\!}{ \Xt{}{\x}{\T}{ \valP } }{}\\
Mar 08 11:15:45 <Maxdamantus> \seguitoProduzione{ \hspace{-2ex} \mbox{<we write just $\val$ and $\vs$ when $\p$ is clear from the context>} \hspace{-10ex} }{}\\
Mar 08 11:16:25 <Maxdamantus> That first line corresponds to the production rule just above the positioning error pointed to.
Mar 08 11:16:52 <Maxdamantus> (the actual source code has additional newlines/indentation, so it's a bit easier to read than what I posted here)
Mar 08 11:17:38 <Maxdamantus> (though I often did get annoyed at the main author's occasional indentation inconsistency (occurs in Java code, not just TeX))
Mar 08 11:17:58 <Maxdamantus> he's also Italian, so the TeX is partly in Italian.
Mar 08 11:20:28 <Maxdamantus> I think the occasional negative spacing is just to force stuff to fit onto one line, but since the document was being semantically updated (not just updated to improve styling), those negative space hacks might've become inconsintent. They should obviously be fixed at some point.
Mar 08 11:28:55 <ceene> i'm reading this http://www.danielallington.net/2016/09/the-latex-fetish/
Mar 08 11:29:38 <Maxdamantus> and as for the "FOO", apparently one of the source files was just replaced entirely with the content "FOO"
Mar 08 11:30:08 <ceene> well, that's obvious, I thought it was yet to be written
Mar 08 11:30:13 <Maxdamantus> presumably because the content was moved to a different place, and I guess he didn't feel like removing/unreferencing that file at the time.
Mar 08 11:30:18 <ceene> neither that nor the guy writing italian is latex' fault :)
Mar 08 11:31:25 <KotCzarny> or that didnt feel like fixing broken page layout
Mar 08 11:31:26 <KotCzarny> ;)
Mar 08 23:18:30 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: anything official has to be done by board, register changes with court (like new board members, bylaws, address) or other authorities or banks or whtever MCeV official means in terms of the bylaws
Mar 08 23:19:01 <DocScrutinizer05> probably
Mar 08 23:19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> am I member of any board? (I honestly don't know of any, sorry)
Mar 08 23:19:55 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: meeting minutes of GA in 2017 tells that you are board, doesn't it?
Mar 08 23:20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> no idea
Mar 08 23:20:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I would have hoped to be foundation member only
Mar 08 23:21:10 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: iirc you have been elected board in 2017
Mar 08 23:21:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I for sure never felt up to the task to follow duties of a board member
Mar 08 23:23:42 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: then don't do it in the future no more
Mar 08 23:23:46 <chem|st> > Als Vorstand wurde vorgeschlagen und einstimmig (wieder)gewählt:                                  
Mar 08 23:23:49 <chem|st> > Jörg Reisenweber)(jörg_rw), Stimmen: 6 ja, 0 nein                                                 
Mar 08 23:23:52 <chem|st> > Jussi Ohenoja (juiceme), Stimmen: 6 Ja, 0 Nein                                                    
Mar 08 23:23:55 <chem|st> > Falk Stern (kriegsführung/fstern), Stimmen: 6 ja, 0 nein                                          
Mar 08 23:23:58 <chem|st> > Die Gewählten akzeptierten die Wahl. Der Vorsitzende nimmt zur                                    
Mar 08 23:24:01 <chem|st> > Kenntnis, dass der Vorstand ordnungsgemäß bestellt wurde.
Mar 08 23:24:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, so obviously I am board member
Mar 08 23:26:41 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: and to be pretty plain, it is receive or print a sheet of paper, go to city-hall, sign it, have it notarized by city-hall, put in an envelope send to Falk or Jussi or court - once a year...
Mar 08 23:26:48 <chem|st> not that a big deal actually
Mar 08 23:27:14 <DocScrutinizer05> what I know for sure: I'm not secretary, I have no idea what tasks are pending and never felt like that's a duty I could be up to, and for sure I clearly stated this before I accepted any election to be any position in the MCeV
Mar 08 23:27:43 <DocScrutinizer05> no problem, send me paper and I'll sign and forward as needed
Mar 08 23:31:15 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: so no secretary, as Jussi is treasurer, you might be chairman... you take the minutes and print it, download a "register at court" template, fill in your credentials and the changes in the meeting minutes + the new address, go notarize it, send it to probably falk as jussi is busy saving Nokia...
Mar 08 23:33:31 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, none of this sounds like I could convert it into an action I would know how to do. I'm not chairman either
Mar 08 23:34:44 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: I guess public court will make you convert it into an action
Mar 08 23:35:22 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: you registered a company, just the same, different name on the form
Mar 08 23:35:55 <DocScrutinizer05> "take the minutes" no idea where and what those are, print yes I know how to do. download a "register at court" template - no idea either. My credentials? As long as those are my personal data, ok - IO got no further credentials of any kind. Go notarize - no way, I got no time to visit a notar or whatever. 
Mar 08 23:36:13 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry this sounds pretty offensive
Mar 08 23:36:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't like this sort of .... meh
Mar 08 23:37:07 <DocScrutinizer05> nevermind I'm pretty sure I find a way to get out of this pretty fast
Mar 08 23:37:12 <chem|st> https://agkl.justiz.rlp.de/fileadmin/justiz/Gerichte/Ordentliche_Gerichte/Amtsgerichte/Kaiserslautern/Organisation/Registergericht/Anmeldung_von_Aenderungen_des_vertretungsberechtigten_Vorstands.pdf
Mar 08 23:37:56 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: the letter I got from court because MCeV board failed to do something is pretty offensive
Mar 08 23:38:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I hereby declare I leave MCeV and step down from all positions
Mar 08 23:38:39 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: declare to whom?
Mar 08 23:39:35 <chem|st> I am no board
Mar 08 23:40:47 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: but well, pussy out like you always do... why get elected in the first place?
Mar 08 23:43:03 <chem|st> otoh, I have no idea what falk's address is, so I will just paste the minutes and your address to court and the bank, send you all papers and shit and be done with it
Mar 08 23:44:01 <chem|st> and if you think declaring anything will help, you are required to fwd changes to court within weeks, not years, so stepping down now instead of fixing it, helps you ZERO
Mar 08 23:45:03 <chem|st> you can also talk some sense into the other two and do it together
Mar 08 23:45:29 <chem|st> it is not like you are a sitting duck all alone there, you are three board members after all
Mar 08 23:47:39 <chem|st> being two board members denying to have time to go notarize stuff, makes it completely impossible
Mar 08 23:48:00 <chem|st> you need two notarized signatures
Mar 08 23:48:32 <chem|st> and meeting minutes that state that those signing are board
Mar 08 23:50:04 <DocScrutinizer05> just bully others like you're the asshat boss, like always. Not with me
Mar 08 23:52:16 <DocScrutinizer05> >>why get elected in the first place?<< I can tell you precidely: because I've been asked, rather begged to do, and I been promised there's no additional workload for me from it
Mar 08 23:53:54 <DocScrutinizer05> those who did obviously didn't anticipate chem|st's usual rage bursts
Mar 08 23:54:02 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: lol
Mar 08 23:57:31 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: yeah I bully people into what exactly? I have a fcking court order on my desk that is for the MCeV Board to fcking hand in changes or get a fcking court order that forces you by adding a little fee to it if you don't
Mar 08 23:58:56 <chem|st> so get the fck out of my face and do your fcking job you obviously negotiated to be not your job, so sad that court won't give a fcking shit what you negotiated to be your job
Mar 09 00:02:20 <chem|st> asking kindly for a year did not help, pressing the situation for a couple of months, didn't help - so wrap your head around it (I even pasted you the form to fill in... how hard can it be?)
Mar 09 00:03:28 <DocScrutinizer05> you did what???
Mar 09 00:03:52 <DocScrutinizer05> you come here throwing tantrums. fuck off with that tone
Mar 09 00:04:13 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: it is quarter past 12... not 5 to 12
Mar 09 00:04:56 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: just guessing, you are not on the board mailinglist then
Mar 09 00:05:19 <chem|st> this gets better every time
Mar 09 00:07:21 <chem|st> well, you might not wonder ever to get no board emails if you negotiated to be a ghost board member
Mar 09 00:07:50 <chem|st> sorry, I thought you got emails about that
Mar 09 00:08:22 <chem|st> warfare: let me guess, you didn't put either one of you on the board alias?!
Mar 09 00:09:52 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: to sum it up, I move and cannot receive any more postal stuff for MCeV, additionally, I am the emergency and secondary contact for the bank, that has to be done by someone else too
Mar 09 00:10:57 <chem|st> that was what I was making aware of even before you got elected
Mar 09 00:11:40 <chem|st> "all good for now but please find a solution" was my 2017 statement
Mar 09 00:21:55 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry for today my quota of suffering hassle, namecalling and false accusations against me is used up. You're free to come again Monday politely explaining the problem you face, the actions you think are needed and ask me for help. As long as I'm not again getting called names and receive instructions I can't follow since I totally lack the necessary context (e.g. >>you take the minutes<< without pointer to those "minutes") I'm for sure 
Mar 09 00:21:55 <DocScrutinizer05> willing to help as much as my situation allows
Mar 09 00:23:30 <DocScrutinizer05> until then, please don't bother to highlight me, and stop spreading umfounded accusations
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 09 03:00:34 2019