**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 20 02:59:57 2019 Mar 20 04:35:59 >> i can confirm that 'no sim card/connection error' is caused by old battery<< age old wisdom, anyway nice you can confirm it :-) o7 Mar 20 04:39:13 the nasty/annoying detail inweak-bat-noSIM syndrome in N900: the modem *should* and maybe even *does* reprt a "LOW VOLTAGE!" error before going into malfunction shutdowm. Alas nothing in maemo userland seems to check for and report this Mar 20 04:43:50 at _very least_ the idiotic modem could set a flag in own local filesystem like "abnormal forced shutdown, usually by unexpected power down" and delete/replace this flag on regular solicited shutdown. Then on next power-up / boot of modem it reports value of the flag to server system aka maemo Mar 20 04:46:10 though I'm absolutely sure the modem could run long enough from buffer caps to report the very condition on power removal even like popping battery out of device Mar 20 05:11:10 It could be worse, such as how Windows Desktop falsely says that the disk is not formatted and asks the user if they want to format the disk if the user tries to access a flexible disc and maybe rigid disc AKA hard disc too that is formatted with a file system currently not supported by the Windows installation even though Windows has Installable File System capability for a user outside of Microsoft to add support for additional file systems. Whilst I was Mar 20 05:11:10 in secondary school, my classmate formatted the flexible disc he brought from his Mac at home because the disc was formatted with HFS instead of FAT and the Windows 95 computer at my school did not have an HFS driver installed. Mar 20 05:19:10 Also, if I recall correctly, when I tried to use an active Telus Mobility SIM in my N900, the software behaved the same as if no SIM was present instead of telling the user that the current SIM is active but is for a cellular network that uses bands not supported by the cellular modem of the N900. To be fair, though, I do not know if any platform tells the user about this situation because I do not know if the computer is able to distinguish between the Mar 20 05:19:10 lack of a SIM and the presence of a SIM that the cellular modem cannot use? Mar 20 05:26:24 I wonder if the cellular modem of the N950 supports the (UMTS) bands used by Telus Mobility and Bell Mobility. It no longer matters by now but it is difficult to recommend the N900 for use in Canada when the cellular modem of the N900 does not support the (UMTS) bands used by two (Telus Mobility, Bell Mobility) of the three (Telus Mobility, Bell Mobility, Rogers Wireless) largest cellular network operators in Canada. Mar 20 05:32:14 The human population of California is slightly more than all of Canada, though, so Canada is often lower priority than the USA. The original Apple iPhone from 2007 had the same problem as the N900 in Canada but Apple released the iPhone 3G the following year and released only the iPhone 3G and later in Canada because of the same limitation of the cellular modem as the N900 has in Canada, which may be why Nokia never released the N900 in Canada. Mar 20 05:41:09 Also, Nokia released some Series 40 “phones”, such as the 6103b from 2005, that refuse to let the user user them if a SIM is not detected when the OS boots even though the computer is still useful without cellular connectivity. Nokia also released some Symbian smartphones, such as the C6-00 from 2010, that have a microUSB connector but can only charge from a separate barrel connector, not from the microUSB connector. Mar 20 05:41:43 s/user user/user use/ Mar 20 05:41:43 brolin_empey meant: Also, Nokia released some Series 40 “phones”, such as the 6103b from 2005, that refuse to let the user use them if a SIM is not detected when the OS boots even though the computer is still useful without cellular connectivity. Nokia also released som... Mar 20 05:45:25 I had a C6-00 when it was current and it took me a while to realise that I had to use the Nokia power supply with the barrel connector for power because microUSB was already the charging standard outside of Apple land by then. Mar 20 05:51:19 Also, I can no longer use my Geeksphone Revolution because the only battery I had for it bulged/expanded and was recycled and the lame hardware/firmware (?) design always powers the computer from the battery terminals instead of from the USB connector used to charge the battery. Mar 20 08:57:04 Is there a mini PCI-E card with or to which normal SATA connectors can be connected? Mar 20 08:59:46 My actual question is: on a computer like this: Mar 20 08:59:46 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/low-cost-intel-celeron-J1900-processor-itx-industrial-motherboard-for-vending-machine/32869595642.html Mar 20 08:59:46 can the mSATA/mini PCI-E sockets can converted to normal SATA connectors so I can use those ports for 2.5-inch or larger drives instead of only for mSATA drives or mini PCI-E cards? Mar 20 09:03:00 s/can converted/be converted/ Mar 20 09:03:00 brolin_empey meant: can the mSATA/mini PCI-E sockets be converted to normal SATA connectors so I can use those ports for 2.5-inch or larger drives instead of only for mSATA drives or mini PCI-E cards? Mar 20 09:24:53 brolin_empey: apparently: https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/ADPSTT690384/StarTech-mSATA-to-SATA-HDDSSD-Adapter-Converter Mar 20 09:27:45 Seems hard to search for though, since most results seem to be the other way round. Mar 20 09:29:18 Here's one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/p/Syba-Si-ada40113-mSATA-to-SATA-Converter/1778623054?iid=382390398201 Mar 20 09:29:32 seems like a more reasonable price Mar 20 09:30:34 eh, maybe not a reasonable price .. "+ NZD27.02 addl. costs" Mar 20 09:31:58 the only worthwhile adapters are marvel based Mar 20 09:32:09 and even then, heatsink is a MUST Mar 20 09:32:12 That's not an adapter. That's a controller. Mar 20 09:32:25 adapter, controller, just naming Mar 20 09:32:27 He doesn't need any controller. All he needs is a bunch of conductors for his signal. Mar 20 09:32:30 It's not. Mar 20 09:32:42 There is no chip involved in the things I linked, so there is no heatsink needed. Mar 20 09:32:51 It's essentially just cabling. Mar 20 09:33:04 mSATA/mini PCI-E Mar 20 09:33:09 he doesnt know which one he has Mar 20 09:33:15 if the post is msata, yes Mar 20 09:33:26 if its mpcie, he needs marvel based solution Mar 20 09:33:30 Presumably he has both. Mar 20 09:33:43 They have combinations of these things on the same fittings. Mar 20 09:33:51 so you can put either a PCI-E card in, or an mSATA cardp. Mar 20 09:33:58 yes, some socs have programmable functions Mar 20 09:34:06 but i dont know about intels Mar 20 09:34:19 It's not programming. It's just reusing the same physical fitting. Mar 20 09:34:24 yes Mar 20 09:34:25 The actual pins are exclusive. Mar 20 09:34:36 but you need different controller for both functions Mar 20 09:34:39 (except maybe power pins; not sure exactly how they work) Mar 20 09:34:58 If you have an "mSATA/mini PCI-E" slot, you already have controllers for both of those things. Mar 20 09:34:59 and for marvel socs you SET which function particular port has Mar 20 09:35:28 Hm. I thought they used exclusive sets of conductors. Mar 20 09:36:58 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Mini-SATA_(mSATA)_variant Mar 20 09:38:08 i think you thought about usb part of mpcie slot Mar 20 09:38:25 in which case yes, those have predefined pins for usb function Mar 20 09:38:49 but msata/pcie function is muxed if supported by soc/board Mar 20 09:40:00 Hm. So how does it know what controller it should be connected to? Mar 20 09:40:15 i just told you, you set it in bios/uboot Mar 20 09:40:21 Ah. Mar 20 09:40:22 sometimes with pins on board Mar 20 09:40:31 so in that case you still shouldn't need any chip. Mar 20 09:40:45 if his board supports such functionality, yes Mar 20 09:42:08 anyway, the board he linked seems to just have mSATA and mini PCI-E separate. Mar 20 09:42:34 (it has both, one slot for each) Mar 20 09:43:44 if you want to connect it through the mini PCI-E slot, you'd need a mini PCI-E SATA controller. Mar 20 09:44:10 yup Mar 20 09:44:14 https://www.ebay.com/b/Disk-Controllers-RAID-Cards-for-Mini-PCI-Express/90715/bn_2785152 Mar 20 09:44:29 #onlymarvell Mar 20 09:45:16 unless you dont care about performance that much Mar 20 09:45:29 then asm is fine too Mar 20 09:49:23 there are details such as number of pcie lanes controller uses etc Mar 20 09:49:36 but for a first buy, sure, go with cheapest Mar 20 10:01:10 Thank you for the links, I will try to get around to opening them. My reason for asking is that I want a small, low-energy, fanless x86-64 computer that can run Ubuntu 10.04.x LTS (for x86-32 if it matters) so I can replace a full-size ATX Core 2 tower computer that heats and adds fan noise to my bedroom but I want to connect at least three 2.5-inch or larger SATA drives using normal SATA connectors, not mSATA drives. I have a 2.5-inch SATA SSD for the Mar 20 10:01:10 boot drive and two HDDs contaning off-site backups of servers in my office: one 2.5-inch HDD and one 3.5-inch HDD that can be cloned onto a 2.5-inch HDD and is 3.5-inch instead of 2.5-inch only because 2.5-inch HDDs had not yet reached 2 TB in 2011 but 3.5-inch HDDs had. Mar 20 10:02:15 then your only solution is 4 port mpcie adapter in mpcie slot (not msata), msata could be used for boot drive Mar 20 10:06:42 Or install the 2.5-inch SATA boot drive on the computer I linked and connect the two HDDs indirectly via USB; this computer does not need to boot from the HDDs, only from the SSD. Mar 20 10:11:24 Is there a small, fanless 80686 or x86-64 computer that can have at least three SATA ports using normal SATA connectors without additional boards? I looked a few months/years ago but most seemed to have only up to two integrated SATA ports. I even found a small VIA C7 computer but it had only at most two integrated SATA ports if I recall correctly. I know that the VIA C7 is only 80686, not x86-64, but it should still work for this application because the Mar 20 10:11:24 current OS is only x86-32. Mar 20 10:15:03 Actually, I could install the current 2.5-inch SATA boot drive in my HP 2133 Mini-Note VIA C7M notebook computer to see if the current drive seems to work on the VIA C7. Mar 20 10:20:34 Isn't the SATA port availability mostly an issue of what motherboard you're using, which shouldn't have much to do with fanlessness? Mar 20 10:21:42 ie, presumably if you have a particular low-power CPU or something in mind, you should be able to find a motherboard with 5 or 6 SATA ports Mar 20 10:28:16 The current microATX LGA775 motherboard (Asus P5E-VM DO) has six SATA ports but the desktop Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad CPU becomes burning hot in mere seconds without a heatsink, which has a fan. Also, the full-size ATX tower case has at least one fan (on the rear, below the power supply when the case is vertical) and the normal/full-size ATX12V power supply has at least one, maybe two, fans. Is there a socketed LGA775 CPU that can safely and reliably run Mar 20 10:28:16 without a fan even if it still needs a heatsink? Mar 20 10:30:26 I have a nice, very efficient and quiet ATX12V power supply from SeaSonic but I had to stop using it after around a decade only because the fan developed a problem. Mar 20 10:31:55 Maybe you need a bigger heatsink. Mar 20 10:33:13 our old HP desktop (from around 2003 or so) had only a heatsink on the CPU, no fan, and that heatsink seems a lot bigger than the typical HSF that comes with Intel CPUs. Mar 20 10:33:37 You're not just using a HSF assembly where you've taken the fan off, right? Mar 20 10:34:31 heat directly corresponds to power consumption btw, so if you have a CPU that uses half the power, it will emit half the heat. Mar 20 10:35:57 It seems that usually the low-power (as in electric power, not capability) 80686 or x86-64 CPUs are BGA ICs or some other package meant to be soldered on an embedded motherboard, not a socketed package meant for use on a desktop motherboard. Note that “embedded motherboard” can include a notebook computer in this context. Mar 20 10:38:48 Which makes sense in practice because connectors often cause problems in the long term, which is bad if you need a computer to run continuously without servicing the hardware for at least a decade. Mar 20 10:40:56 And at my current age of 32 years, a decade seems significantly shorter than it did when I was younger. Mar 20 10:45:48 Is it possible to use a Core 2 ULV CPU on a desktop motherboard with a socket for the CPU? I used to have a Core 2 ULV notebook computer (a Dell Vostro V13) but I think the CPU was soldered, not socketed. Mar 20 10:47:25 I guess it could be possible if you could make a board to adapt the soldered package of the CPU, probably a BGA IC, to the socket of the desktop motherboard. Mar 20 10:49:43 Do any of the 80686 or x86-64 “mobile on desktop” motherboards use a socketed CPU? Are socketed CPUs still common in notebook computers now that the x86 CPU makers sell separate mobile/embedded and desktop/workstation/server CPUs? Mar 20 10:55:44 Maxdamantus: Which CPU did your 2003 desktop computer have? It may be pre-NetBurst, assuming it is an Intel CPU, probably meaning P6 microarchitecture, meaning Pentium Pro, Pentium II, or Pentium III or Xeon or Celeron using P6 microarchitecture, which may explain why the CPU could run without a fan if the airflow in the case was sufficient. Mar 20 10:56:25 Some Pentium 4. Mar 20 10:56:48 NetBurst microarchitecture was used by the Pentium 4 and Pentium D. Mar 20 10:57:50 Intel used the Pentium 4 brand for around eight years, though, so that is vague. Mar 20 10:58:19 I'm not sure how the microarchitecture is important, except in making the CPU more power-efficient, or more heat tolerant. Mar 20 11:00:06 the case had a fan though, and there was a duct that directed that fan towards the CPU Mar 20 11:00:24 (dunno if it was blowing in or out of the case) Mar 20 11:00:50 my i3-4130 board is very quiet, cool and power efficient Mar 20 11:01:11 using some crappy psu i get 20watt with 'off' and 40watt idling in win7 Mar 20 11:03:09 seriously though: it's about energy consumption and heat tolerance Mar 20 11:03:34 Intel discontinued NetBurst partly because of the high power consumption and heat, same reason as why AMD stopped producing the Athlon Thunderbird (first Athlon for Socket A/Socket 462 after the original Athlon for Slot A) after the 1.4 GHz version. Mar 20 11:04:08 anything involved in the CPU that affects how well it works with different cooling systems just leads to those two things. Mar 20 11:08:46 I thought the amount of switching in the CPU is important too because more switching means more electrical energy converted to waste heat; x86 computer designs are CISC, which I thought implies that they use more transistors than RISC designs such as the ARM, which implies that they switch more. Mar 20 11:09:07 evrything is cisc nowadays Mar 20 11:09:13 i mean risc Mar 20 11:09:22 with cisc layer built on top of that Mar 20 11:09:41 microcode etc Mar 20 11:09:56 intel learned the lesson when amd bought alpha and made athlons Mar 20 11:10:14 and a bit earlier, but production took a while Mar 20 11:13:09 I'm not very well-versed in CISC vs. RISC, but my guess was always that RISC is able to be more efficient by reusing the same circuitry. Mar 20 11:13:56 or rather, that CISC is less efficient because it uses more disparate circuitry; signals have to travel further. Mar 20 11:17:11 and that risc can be clocked higher Mar 20 11:17:48 KotCzarny: Yes but architectures such as the ARM have been designed to be RISC from the beginning in the 1980s, whereas x86 has been evolving from around 1978 (8086 but that evolved from earlier CISC designs in the 1970s) and still has to maintain the same CISC design used by the software even now over four decades later so x86 CPUs have even more transistors because of the overhead of converting the 1970s-era CISC interface used by the software to the Mar 20 11:17:48 internal RISC architecture of the modern x86 microarchitectures such as P5 (original Pentium from 1993) and later, which means converting from x86 instructions to micro-ops, then converting from micro-ops to field-programmable microcode, and so on. Mar 20 11:18:24 in short, dont use old tech Mar 20 11:24:42 If I recall correctly, the x86 evolution goes back at least as early as 1971 with the Intel 4004. I guess it actually goes back at least as far as 1968, when Intel was founded. If I recall correctly, Datapoint (a minicomputer architecture?) was the predecessor of x86 or what became x86. There was a man with surname Poor or Poore (?) who was associated with Datapoint who died a few years ago. Mar 20 11:25:34 Or the x86 ISA evolved from the Datapoint ISA? Mar 20 11:26:21 z80 ftw! Mar 20 11:33:58 IBM has a long history of maintaining backward compatibility in its computer designs because backward compatibility is important to businesses; I believe x86 is the oldest microprocessor architecture still commonly used for new designs. Mar 20 11:36:12 An x86-64 microprocessor from 2019 can still run object code from as early as 1978. Mar 20 11:40:05 Look how successful companies such as Commodore and Apple that keep breaking backward compability are with business users compared to companies such as IBM that have maintained backward compability as far back as the 1960s. Mar 20 12:12:22 Wikiwide: Apparently Oksana is not here but the video at the beginning of this video made me think of her comment about electronic waste: Mar 20 12:12:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6locxQ0jzdc Mar 20 12:14:00 Wikiwide: Also, it seems strange to me that the nVidia Web site categorises Australia as part of Asia instead of as Ocenia? Mar 20 12:14:29 Oceania. Maybe my font is too small after all. Mar 20 14:09:39 Here is the VIA C7 computer I mentioned: Mar 20 14:09:39 https://www.wdlsystems.com/VIA-Technologies-VB7009-16-Mini-ITX-1-6GHz-C7-D Mar 20 14:09:39 but I really should buy an x86-64 computer if I am serious about this project, which I am not because, honestly, it is a low priority for my life and I always have too much I want to do in too little time. Mar 20 14:27:24 Calling a purely electric car a “zero-emission vehicle” seems quite inaccurate to me because the vehicle still has a significant carbon footprint. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Mar 21 02:59:57 2019