**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 01 03:00:25 2019
Aug 01 09:23:22 * FatPhil hovers over the 'buy now' button... https://www.osta.ee/en/nokia-n900-125817110.html
Aug 01 09:24:04 <KotCzarny> kinda expensive
Aug 01 09:24:19 <FatPhil> does anyone have a spare TV-out cable. None of the ones that I've acquired have had theirs.
Aug 01 09:24:44 <KotCzarny> fatphil: any av cable will work
Aug 01 09:24:58 <KotCzarny> in the worst you will have to swap red/yellow cinch plugs
Aug 01 09:25:10 <FatPhil> It's not cheap, but the last one I bought was 50e, and that was about 4 years ago.
Aug 01 09:25:37 <KotCzarny> in .pl you can get almost-unused condition for that price
Aug 01 09:26:08 <bencoh> KotCzarny: that's not really the case in the rest of the world
Aug 01 09:26:16 <KotCzarny> :)
Aug 01 09:26:30 <bencoh> FatPhil: that sounds like a good deal I'd say
Aug 01 09:26:32 <KotCzarny> shall i start snagging them for #maemo folks?
Aug 01 09:28:07 <KotCzarny> oh, wow, nokia n-gage (original one) for ~170usd
Aug 01 09:28:08 <FatPhil> I'm very tempted. I will look at my stash of spare parts, and work out how many "whole" ones I have now. g/f will need replacing in about 2-3 years. I hope this new one will last 5, and I know I have at least one whole spare, so it's not a problem for another 5-7 years.
Aug 01 09:28:09 <KotCzarny> madness
Aug 01 09:28:41 <bencoh> KotCzarny: I guess some think of it as a collectable now a days
Aug 01 09:29:31 <KotCzarny> quite nice condition tho, almost new
Aug 01 09:29:47 <FatPhil> Some of the really old ones do seem to have a retro cult following, and prices that match
Aug 01 09:31:27 <FatPhil> 7110for 255e (the slide mouthpiece, oversized screen (for the day) and WAP) here
Aug 01 09:32:35 <KotCzarny> madness.
Aug 01 09:32:45 <FatPhil> KotCzarny: what are BL-5J prices like in .pl? All of ours have turned to pillows.
Aug 01 09:33:06 <KotCzarny> batteries are usually bought from china anyway
Aug 01 09:33:15 <KotCzarny> so you might refer to:
Aug 01 09:33:17 <KotCzarny> ~polarcell
Aug 01 09:33:21 <KotCzarny> ~ping
Aug 01 09:33:29 <KotCzarny> drat. bot missing again
Aug 01 09:33:41 <bencoh> inf^I^I damnbot :)
Aug 01 09:34:13 <FatPhil> I did pick up a few cheap clone batteries, but they didn't last very long. Probably better VFM than the real ones, as the price difference was 5:1.
Aug 01 09:34:14 <KotCzarny> many folks here bought polarcell brand and i havent seen any complaints, only positives
Aug 01 09:35:54 <FatPhil> oooh, /me reads https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65568
Aug 01 09:36:26 <KotCzarny> you should check dual 18650 mod for n900 too
Aug 01 09:36:27 <KotCzarny> ;)
Aug 01 09:36:53 <KotCzarny> 5200mAh baby, lasts for weeks ;)
Aug 01 09:37:55 <KotCzarny> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86571
Aug 01 09:37:56 <KotCzarny> ;)
Aug 01 09:39:18 <KotCzarny> more if you can source good 18650
Aug 01 09:42:13 <FatPhil> "OMG it looks like a bomb made to detonate if you place a call..." :-D
Aug 01 09:47:51 <FatPhil> I think i discovered a bug the other day. My old back lost the little metal part - I think it contained a magnet for the Hall sensor which should tell the system to unmount the uSD card.
Aug 01 09:48:18 <FatPhil> but my card was mounted anyway, even without the magnet.
Aug 01 09:48:53 <KotCzarny> sensor might be dead too
Aug 01 09:49:10 <KotCzarny> or simply something prevented card from umount
Aug 01 09:49:12 <KotCzarny> maybe swap?
Aug 01 09:49:31 <FatPhil> that's mostly from rusty memory, but I think it's correct. Alas there's not enough logging options available in stock code.
Aug 01 09:51:29 <KotCzarny> it's hackable shell script
Aug 01 09:59:28 * FatPhil likes scripts. if your script isn't fast enough, optimise the interpreter/pcode runner, and magically you've made all scripts faster!
Aug 01 10:00:25 <FatPhil> (assuming step 0 - ensure yor script isn't braindead in the first place)
Aug 01 10:38:28 <Maxdamantus> 21:49:10 < KotCzarny> or simply something prevented card from umount
Aug 01 10:38:34 <Maxdamantus> Very unlikely to be software at least.
Aug 01 10:38:56 <Maxdamantus> since the mmc driver itself just disables access based on the sensor.
Aug 01 10:39:05 <Maxdamantus> no usage checking or anything.
Aug 01 10:40:06 <KotCzarny> does it? i always thought it's just a gpio for os to trigger some actions
Aug 01 10:40:51 <Maxdamantus> It does. Unless you modify the omap_hsmmc driver, it's basically impossible to maintain access to the card.
Aug 01 10:41:23 <KotCzarny> does it at least finish pending writes?
Aug 01 10:41:58 <Maxdamantus> Probably not, depending on what you mean by "pending writes"
Aug 01 10:42:13 <KotCzarny> the writes that went from os into driver
Aug 01 10:42:24 <Maxdamantus> Don't think so.
Aug 01 10:44:51 <Maxdamantus> https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/omap/+/glass-omap-xrw14b/drivers/mmc/host/omap_hsmmc.c#1429
Aug 01 10:47:17 <Maxdamantus> So it just sets that `protect_card` flag, which causes any requests to fail.
Aug 01 10:49:51 <Maxdamantus> I think I remember ke-recv or something also responding to it in userspace, but ultimately the card is blocked in the kernel anyway at that point.
Aug 01 10:50:18 <Maxdamantus> so it might be able to additionally force unmount it, but it can't do a clean unmount.
Aug 01 10:51:27 <Maxdamantus> https://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?s=e1199d2319f601c0662ec53d481f22bd&p=1457369&postcount=4
Aug 01 10:52:41 <KotCzarny> it should try to umount card with 1-2s timer before block
Aug 01 10:52:58 <KotCzarny> and signal with flashing red led while doing so
Aug 01 10:53:15 <KotCzarny> that would be the best course of action
Aug 01 10:53:37 <Maxdamantus> I imagine the feature is pretty much completely pointless anyway.
Aug 01 10:53:50 <KotCzarny> nah, it has it's uses
Aug 01 10:54:04 <Maxdamantus> afaict, the driver is able to reset the state of the controller anyway.
Aug 01 10:54:14 <KotCzarny> yeah, but you lose data
Aug 01 10:54:48 <Maxdamantus> so the only thing I can see it being useful for is allowing the memory card itself to try and persist its writes to non-volatile storage before it loses power, but the stuff in the card's memory is only one part of the chain.
Aug 01 10:54:49 <KotCzarny> with umount and visual notification for the user it allows for safe eject
Aug 01 10:55:26 <Maxdamantus> Sure, I'm not arguing against a safe unmount. I'm arguing against a driver-level block of the card.
Aug 01 10:55:45 <Maxdamantus> because there's no point in time where it makes sense to prevent an unsafe unmount.
Aug 01 10:56:05 <Maxdamantus> if the card is still physically in the slot, why not give it some further chance to unmount?
Aug 01 10:56:59 <Maxdamantus> Personally, I don't even really like the automatic unmounting functionality. I basically never take my card out anyway.
Aug 01 10:57:04 <Maxdamantus> (and I have swap on my card)
Aug 01 10:57:31 <KotCzarny> you dont know how fast user ejects, or if he/she just wants to blow the dust off
Aug 01 10:57:44 <FatPhil> but I bet you don't take the back off often either
Aug 01 10:57:48 <Maxdamantus> (my device doesn't unmount when I take the back cover off; I did that modification to the driver as mentioned in the TMO post, and I might have done something with the mount to make it not automatically unmount, can't remember)
Aug 01 10:58:17 <FatPhil> has that propagated to the power kernel? might that be why the hall sensor did nothing?
Aug 01 10:58:30 <KotCzarny> the only time when i take the back off is when i change battery or clean the insides
Aug 01 10:58:44 <KotCzarny> nah, it's his personal modification
Aug 01 11:04:10 <Maxdamantus> er, no point in time where it makes sense to prevent a safe unmount*
Aug 01 11:11:08 <FatPhil> at no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.
Aug 01 11:12:28 <FatPhil> but at that point, you're trying to prevent the user from harming himself when he does something a bit dumb. perhaps training him not to be dumb is better.
Aug 01 11:12:55 <sixwheeledbeast> search "wannasee electronic" re: polarcell bl5j
Aug 01 11:13:07 <FatPhil> sync on cover removal seems more sensible than do nothing on cover removal
Aug 01 11:13:12 <sixwheeledbeast> 13euro
Aug 01 11:13:12 <sixwheeledbeast> IIRC
Aug 01 11:13:36 <FatPhil> sixwheeledbeast: someone here's claiming to have real nokias for that price
Aug 01 11:13:54 <sixwheeledbeast> "real" ones have less capacity
Aug 01 11:14:02 <FatPhil> which comes as a surprise, they used to be ~35 here
Aug 01 11:14:49 <FatPhil> real ones are sometimes sanyo, and sometimes samsung, so not guaranteed to be completely equal.
Aug 01 11:15:18 <FatPhil> (and probably other OEMs, I've not peeled the labels off many)
Aug 01 11:19:25 <sixwheeledbeast> polarcell are a good source of new batteries. I can't imagine Nokia make them any more and while they have 10 year shelf life I would prefer to promote the slightly higher capacity still manufactured product
Aug 01 11:38:34 <bencoh> oh and, finding real nokias can be a pain anyway
Aug 01 11:39:08 <bencoh> I first bought two "genuine" batteries for my n900, I never managed to charge them over ~800mAh
Aug 01 11:39:15 <bencoh> then moved to polarcell
Aug 01 11:59:24 <Maxdamantus> 23:11:08 < FatPhil> at no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.
Aug 01 11:59:39 <Maxdamantus> No hardware guarantees collections of writes to be atomic though afaik
Aug 01 12:00:01 <Maxdamantus> to the extent that any hardware guarantees atomicity of writes, it's basically just writes of sectors on the device.
Aug 01 12:01:29 <Maxdamantus> the primitives you normally have to work with is basically just that (blocks are written atomically), and you usually also have some way of knowing that writes up until a particular point in time have been persisted on the device.
Aug 01 12:02:26 <Maxdamantus> (the latter is basically the hardware version of fsync)
Aug 01 12:07:59 <FatPhil> anyone got any cranky funky old browser on their phone, and wanna help my webpage be maximally readable?
Aug 01 12:09:49 <KotCzarny> install netscape navigator 3.x
Aug 01 12:09:49 <KotCzarny> and have fun
Aug 01 12:09:59 <sicelo> FatPhil: you have MicroB .. old enough :)
Aug 01 12:10:17 <KotCzarny> sicelo: you havent seen old unless you've seen nn3
Aug 01 12:10:45 <KotCzarny> (there are older, but i've spent lots of time with nn)
Aug 01 12:10:53 <FatPhil> I would like arrows rather than +/=/- signs in the change indicators here: http://fatphil.org/beer/stats/Germany_2019-08-01_total.html
Aug 01 12:11:10 <KotCzarny> use utf?
Aug 01 12:11:31 <FatPhil> at the moment that's a mess, it has both the unicode arrows and the ascii.
Aug 01 12:12:44 <FatPhil> if arrows work everywhere (not just rendered, but rendered and readable and meaningful) then I'll ditch the +/=/-. Works on w3m (pc) and lynx (n900)
Aug 01 12:13:19 <KotCzarny> i've found to not bother
Aug 01 12:13:43 <KotCzarny> if you want them to work everywhere, use buttons with images and proper alts
Aug 01 12:14:02 <FatPhil> I do like the pointing arrow (or triangle) motif in such contexts.
Aug 01 12:14:35 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: Netscape Navigator 3.x is not released for GNU+Linux on ARM.  Note the “on their phone” part of the question asked by FatPhil.  Yes, a desktop computer can be used as a telephone too but I think “phone” as used by FatPhil in this case means a handheld computer.
Aug 01 12:14:40 <FatPhil> I'd like to avoid images, if possible (even data url ones)
Aug 01 12:15:07 <FatPhil> oh, if you've got an ancient cranky pc browser, feel free to try on that too.
Aug 01 12:15:18 <FatPhil> I reckon that if lynx copes, everything will, but I might be wrong.
Aug 01 12:16:28 <FatPhil> it totally screws up links!
Aug 01 12:16:39 <FatPhil> the browser /links/, that is
Aug 01 12:16:44 <KotCzarny> links need proper terminal and settings
Aug 01 12:17:08 <KotCzarny> and if you used any js you need elinks
Aug 01 12:18:18 <FatPhil> Friends don't let friends do any JS ;-)
Aug 01 12:19:41 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: The oldest Web browser is WorldWideWeb.app from 1990 because it is the original Web browser.
Aug 01 12:24:59 <sixwheeledbeast> single arrows would be clearer than double
Aug 01 12:32:01 <sixwheeledbeast> css arrows would be better
Aug 01 12:34:46 <sixwheeledbeast> symbol and number together probably makes it look too busy
Aug 01 12:40:45 <FatPhil> good suggestion. I've tweaked the generator to make swapping in new =+- triplets trivial, I'll try single arrows and triangles, as I've seen triangles a lot
Aug 01 13:02:03 <sixwheeledbeast> FatPhil: was imagining this https://pastebin.com/SnKXr75r re arrows
Aug 01 13:10:50 <FatPhil> looks great in a graphical browser, but my g/f will be using lynx on her n900, and the arrows don't come out at all, some alt text might help, I'll add some.
Aug 01 13:11:57 <sixwheeledbeast> hmm
Aug 01 13:12:53 <sixwheeledbeast> I am surprised it's pretty basic css, alt text could be + - = I suppose
Aug 01 13:12:55 <FatPhil> I'll get a blind mate to send her screenreader over some of the alternatives too. I want up and down semantics.
Aug 01 13:14:46 <sixwheeledbeast> oh I forgot lynx is text only
Aug 01 13:28:04 <FatPhil> it maps lots of unicode things onto plain old text, and this is the best of the batch so far: http://fatphil.org/beer/stats/Germany_2019-08-01_total.html
Aug 01 13:40:59 <sixwheeledbeast> much better than before
Aug 01 13:42:11 <FatPhil> Thanks for the feedback. I already sent that one to my accesibility hit-squad for their opinion on it. Nothing else coped on the n900 apart from that.
Aug 01 13:43:10 <sixwheeledbeast> ▬ for none movers?
Aug 01 13:43:42 <FatPhil> blank says everything that absolutely needs to be said!
Aug 01 13:44:48 <FatPhil> now trying n900 ssh to home PCs, and w3m/elinks, as that's something I quite often seem to do...
Aug 01 13:45:27 <sixwheeledbeast> i suppose
Aug 01 13:51:30 <FatPhil> It's incredible how many weird platform users I know. I have 3 other IRC channels I'll now go and pester with the same question. I'm sure someone will tell me it's terrible in BeOS or OS/2 Warp!
Aug 01 13:51:58 <FatPhil> as n900 users (or at least fans) I gave you priority :)
Aug 01 13:53:08 <bencoh> priority for?
Aug 01 13:58:10 <brolin_empey> BeOS and OS/2 are operating systems, not Web browsers.
Aug 01 14:12:38 <sunshavi> FatPhil: I have w3m running on maemo and also within emacs23 on maemo
Aug 01 14:14:17 <DocScrutinizer05> oldest web app, thought that was Mozaic
Aug 01 14:15:46 <bencoh> same
Aug 01 14:16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)
Aug 01 14:16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> 92
Aug 01 14:16:42 <bencoh> Mosaic was preceded by WorldWideWeb, the lesser-known Erwise[6] and ViolaWWW. 
Aug 01 14:16:44 <bencoh> well :)
Aug 01 14:17:56 <DocScrutinizer05> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser#History
Aug 01 14:18:21 <DocScrutinizer05> >>The first web browser, called WorldWideWeb, was created in 1990 by Sir Tim Berners-Lee.[5]<<
Aug 01 14:18:31 <Elleo> https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/ <-- you can play with an emulation of that here
Aug 01 14:36:43 <bencoh> :)
Aug 01 15:01:53 <FatPhil> bencoh: for being guineapigs who are likely to have weird browsing capabilities!
Aug 01 15:02:56 <bencoh> :]
Aug 01 15:03:10 <bencoh> how thoughtful! we really appreciate it :)
Aug 01 15:03:24 <FatPhil> brolin_empey: occasionally, OSes ship with browsers. They even get taken to court for doing this, if they do it with too much lock-in.
Aug 01 15:04:51 <FatPhil> criminey - the .ee auction site has one of these on sale for 120e - I've (fortunately) never seen it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7280 . I think I've just thrown up a little in my mouth.
Aug 01 15:09:15 <bencoh> wtf o.O
Aug 01 15:10:44 <KotCzarny> bencoh, lol, you seriously never seen it before?
Aug 01 15:13:56 <bencoh> I don't think I had until now
Aug 01 15:25:29 <FatPhil> we humans are blessed with something called "selective amnesia" - tomorrow you will have purged it from your memory.
Aug 01 15:25:50 <FatPhil> or at least I hope I will have
Aug 01 15:30:35 <sicelo> ~techstaff
Aug 01 15:31:22 <sicelo> hah, i also never saw that 7280 in person, although i've seen the pics.
Aug 01 15:33:44 <sicelo> xes: in page, http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/desktop/ , clicking Next Page or a specific number page results in "connection time out" - this happens for the other category pages as well.
Aug 01 16:43:25 <sicelo> ok, scratch that ... if i'm on a socks5 proxy it works. so i guess problem is in my network (no idea how/why)
Aug 01 16:53:12 <bencoh> looks like we have another garage/builder issue though ... I pushed a packet a few days ago and forgot about it, but it doesn't show up
Aug 01 16:53:27 <bencoh> (xdg-utils)
Aug 01 17:29:57 <KotCzarny> sicelo: maybe your operator drops some known packets?
Aug 01 17:31:56 <sicelo> i think the network is just not stable. actually even with the socks proxy, that page is still very slow - so there is some problem on the site iteself
Aug 01 17:33:26 <KotCzarny> is it only one particular site?
Aug 01 17:55:44 * DocScrutinizer05 muses about a new law yet to get implemented, that makes code publish mandatory after 7 years no matter what the code for
Aug 01 17:56:50 <sicelo> KotCzarny: well i do have odd issues from time to time with different websites, including google sites.
Aug 01 18:20:55 <sicelo> KotCzarny: does this work well for you? https://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras_free_source/advanced-clock-plugin/0.15.3/
Aug 01 18:21:43 <KotCzarny> it asks for login
Aug 01 18:21:50 <KotCzarny> which i apparently forgotten
Aug 01 18:22:35 <sicelo> alright. it's one of the pages which don't seem to be working OK.
Aug 01 18:23:35 <sicelo> oh, plain HTTP seems to be working
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 02 03:01:07 2019