**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 16 02:59:57 2010 Feb 16 04:26:55 hey Feb 16 04:27:47 im talking from moblin2 via virtualbox and it seems promising cant wait for meego Feb 16 04:28:04 i had a question , will it be able to use it fully with fingers and virtual keyboard ? Feb 16 04:30:39 you can use maemo with fingers only so not to beable to do so meego would be a step backwards, so for you answer i'd say yes u can use fingers only depending on form factor Feb 16 04:34:57 whyhi: it depends on the graphical server and input drivers Feb 16 04:35:17 whyhi: if the hardware supports touch, then you just need to load a driver to convert that touch into mouse actions Feb 16 04:37:12 "finger to mouse" Feb 16 04:37:24 congratulations! Feb 16 04:38:19 thats why i mention form factor part b/c the wide range of hardware thats being quoted it will run on, but it would be insane not use touch only if ppl want to on phone device and tablets Feb 16 05:28:44 Will MeeGo be different from Moblin? Feb 16 05:29:05 In the netbooks section there's a moblin screenshot pictured on the netbook. Feb 16 05:29:19 Blice: it will be different Feb 16 05:29:28 various pieces of it will converge to maemo pieces Feb 16 05:29:36 on the netbook UI side it'll not be as visible Feb 16 05:29:46 but below the covers there'll be a bunch of things different Feb 16 05:29:56 are you THE arjan? Feb 16 05:29:59 arjan, did you catch the scrollback from just after you left for dinner? Feb 16 05:30:03 not yet Feb 16 05:30:06 * arjan goes to look back Feb 16 05:30:11 Blice: what is "THE arjan" Feb 16 05:30:18 THE arjan is the bootfast arjan. Feb 16 05:30:28 the one who submits the most awesome patches Feb 16 05:30:45 I did do a bunch of fastboot stuff yeah Feb 16 05:31:46 Arjan van de Ven I think. Feb 16 05:31:52 yeah that's me Feb 16 05:32:29 awesome. Thanks so much for your patches they've been great. Your 5sec laptop inspired me to try and do the same and I pulled it off and learned a great deal in the process. Feb 16 05:32:36 GeneralAntilles:as for people in the infrastructure; we welcome many people ;) Feb 16 05:32:54 GeneralAntilles: for the launch we had to scramble stuff so we used infrastructure that was already there Feb 16 05:33:19 arjan, mostly the Freenode contact info. ;) Feb 16 05:33:33 is there a log for this channel? Feb 16 05:33:51 We should get povbot in here. Feb 16 05:36:01 ELC should be interesting this year Feb 16 05:37:34 im so confused! Feb 16 05:37:49 * arjan sends mza some coffee and a vitamin C tablet Feb 16 05:37:51 mza: join the club! Feb 16 05:39:03 i cant wait to see maemo for i386 though:) Feb 16 05:40:02 mza: start scratchbox? Feb 16 05:40:47 welcome the prophet Feb 16 05:40:56 he arrives! Feb 16 05:41:02 Bow down! Feb 16 05:41:20 All hail qgil_ Feb 16 05:41:21 hi there Feb 16 05:41:30 all hail all Feb 16 05:41:30 crashandddie, har har? Feb 16 05:41:30 hi Feb 16 05:41:31 all hail the prophet! Feb 16 05:41:44 my first lines at #meego Feb 16 05:41:55 may there be many more :) Feb 16 05:42:08 what is this? Freemasons? Feb 16 05:42:09 I have been working in the MeeGo pre-launch activities at Nokia / maemo Devices Feb 16 05:42:37 my own role is evolving and I have questions too Feb 16 05:42:39 * GeneralAntilles just realized Nokia's gonna have to execute another division name change. Feb 16 05:42:50 =) Feb 16 05:42:55 * GeneralAntilles is in favor of somebody taking a more active community management position. Feb 16 05:42:56 but perhaps I can help with some answers, or at least pointing to more useful questions :) Feb 16 05:43:17 qgil_: I've posted a few questions on the ML, I'll just wait for an answer there Feb 16 05:43:25 qgil_: big one is deb vs rpm Feb 16 05:43:31 yes, probably I will work at MeeGo Devices at some point, but this is the less interesting of the topics Feb 16 05:43:46 lpotter: no, it isn't Feb 16 05:43:49 i think many are excited about the news but worried about what becomes of maemo community Feb 16 05:43:58 the volume of cfeedback is huge and it takes time to go through it Feb 16 05:44:03 qgil_, I'd like to get some more maemo.org people involved with the MeeGo infra ASAP. Feb 16 05:44:05 even more time to join discussions Feb 16 05:44:09 crashanddie: yes, that seems to generator more noise Feb 16 05:44:15 qgil_: what questions do you have? Feb 16 05:44:17 one by one please, Feb 16 05:44:31 Since effort put towards maemo.org is headed towards something of a black hole in the long term. Feb 16 05:44:33 Stskeeps: +q the channel, voice qgil Feb 16 05:44:36 rpm/deb Feb 16 05:45:01 if you have read my blog post yesterday (wait, url...) Feb 16 05:45:20 http://flors.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/maemo-moblin-meego-join-us/ Feb 16 05:45:39 "I’m happy to work in a company that has been able to push and concede together with another company that has been also able to push and concede." Feb 16 05:45:55 there is no single technology selection that makes happy everybody Feb 16 05:46:08 rpm has been chosen as a part of this push and concede Feb 16 05:46:17 the packaging technology in itself is actually "secondary" Feb 16 05:46:30 rpm is just part of the build infrastructure the Moblin projects contributes Feb 16 05:46:38 it's the cookbook to deploy the package that is important Feb 16 05:46:46 I think it's fair to say that such infra is well in place for Moblin, and had no equivalent in Maemo Feb 16 05:46:47 no the extension ;) Feb 16 05:47:07 we need one good build infra if we want to serve well developers, OEMs, device manufacturers etc so there you go Feb 16 05:47:27 I'm a .deb user since I became a Linux user almost a decade ago Feb 16 05:47:35 so I have my personal opinions and fanboyisms Feb 16 05:47:54 but this is a decision, if we would have gone for .deb we would be in the very same dicussion Feb 16 05:48:05 and honestly we have better things to invest our attention and brains Feb 16 05:48:14 if someone wants to push deb Feb 16 05:48:24 what I'm interested in is how developers will be able to take advantage of netbook power while still scaling down to smartphone CPUs Feb 16 05:48:26 then probably that very same build infra is a good starting point Feb 16 05:48:43 so my suggestion is: stop trying to convince MeeGo about replacing rpm for deb Feb 16 05:48:48 instead, if you really care, Feb 16 05:48:57 start thinking how you will bring debs to MeeGo Feb 16 05:49:06 next :) Feb 16 05:49:14 qgil_: PM'd a few questions Feb 16 05:49:22 ah Feb 16 05:49:27 (sorry, posted before you finished talking, but I'm interested in your thoughts) Feb 16 05:49:31 well, let me go fiorst for Qt/GTK Feb 16 05:49:36 push and concede Feb 16 05:49:50 this is not a GNOME / KDE war Feb 16 05:50:06 as this is not a Debian / Fedora&OpenSUSE war Feb 16 05:50:12 seems to be a deb/rpm war Feb 16 05:50:13 community how will it be integrated to MeeGo will there be room for anyone who is not a developer and what will happen to talk Feb 16 05:50:48 there needs to be one packaging system and there needs to be one toolkit Feb 16 05:51:06 Qt brings a nice package of APIs and developer tools Feb 16 05:51:12 deb and gtk! Feb 16 05:51:16 but actually Qt brings more Feb 16 05:51:30 Web Runtime sits on top of QtWebKit, which sits on top of Qt Feb 16 05:51:43 all this discussion about native toolkits... look the world around you Feb 16 05:52:01 what % of mobile development is just done using Javascript, CSS and etc? Feb 16 05:52:15 so Qt is the baseline for these technologies and tools Feb 16 05:52:26 qgil: Pretty low percentage, most of it atGoogle Feb 16 05:52:28 Qt is also a way to offer a unified API to developers Feb 16 05:52:32 RST38h, ++ Feb 16 05:52:36 Plus Palm Feb 16 05:52:40 sure, current GTK/Qt developers have their opinions Feb 16 05:52:46 QT was always the future for maemo before the meego merger so i see no problem there Feb 16 05:53:00 whyhi: if anything the moblin side has more heartburn there Feb 16 05:53:11 but think of all the developers that will need to join this platform (and any Linux platform of sorts if MeeGo has to become really successful Feb 16 05:53:18 you can always create an html/javascript ui inside of a qt webcontrol, and a bunch of devs do just htat Feb 16 05:53:30 plus the volumes of Symbian, really interesting for any developer caring about installed base Feb 16 05:53:53 from this perspective, GTK+ is no match for Qt, yet MeeGo supports GTK+ and Clutter officialloy Feb 16 05:53:54 QT is a good toolkit. and with QT being available on many platforms (there are even ports for android and winmo/wince), it means that developers wanting to write apps for meego won't risk wasting effort in case the meego version won't be successful Feb 16 05:54:07 (remember that Maemo 6 would put the as "community supported") Feb 16 05:54:19 suggestion: Feb 16 05:54:21 qgil: What is the number of shipped product running Moblin? What is the number of active Moblin users? Number of developers? Feb 16 05:54:24 sames as with the packaging Feb 16 05:54:43 don't put your time trying to convince MeeGo that GTK+/Clutter should be the primary toolkit Feb 16 05:54:53 RST38h: I answered those on the mailing list Feb 16 05:54:59 instead, push GTK+/Clutter or whatever is your toolkit of preference Feb 16 05:55:09 crash: Please, do repeat here Feb 16 05:55:30 no matter what, MeeGo is going to be probably the best underlying platform for "GNOME Mobile" technologies out there Feb 16 05:55:40 what I really don't get is the kind of reactions Feb 16 05:55:43 * RST38h just playing devil's advocate here Feb 16 05:56:09 RST38h: No official device ships with Moblin, as far as I'm aware (and sources at #moblin). Moblin only runs on netbooks at the moment, roughly something between 300 and 2000 users, probably something around 300 active community members, no idea about devs. Feb 16 05:56:10 "You are ditching GTK+ tyou are ditching apt and this is why MeeGo will fail and I will go for Android" Feb 16 05:56:14 please don't quote e on this :) Feb 16 05:56:22 and probably nobody has said that in these terms Feb 16 05:56:37 but I have seen this kind of sentences that really puzzle me :) Feb 16 05:56:39 crashanddie: incorrect; there's three netbook manufacturers shipping moblin preloaded right nwo Feb 16 05:56:40 qgil_: I'm pretty sure if we look deep in tmo we'll find it. Feb 16 05:56:40 crash: yewww... Feb 16 05:56:55 arjan: I stand corrected, thanks for the precision Feb 16 05:56:55 crashanddie: (samsung, MSI, dell) Feb 16 05:56:56 btw, what was the reason behind switching to rpm? Feb 16 05:57:05 Ok, a bit of correction: Moblin does not only run on netbooks. Feb 16 05:57:15 (sorry guys but I can0t type that fast and read at the same time) :9 Feb 16 05:57:19 pretty soon android has next to nothing to do with linux; kernel already forks pretty bad and userspace has just a bits and pieces left Feb 16 05:57:27 I'll go for GeneralAntilles question now Feb 16 05:57:28 (i i dislike both .deb and rpm Feb 16 05:57:34 X-Fade: can you set the channel to moderated? Feb 16 05:57:52 "qgil_, I'd like to get some more maemo.org people involved with the MeeGo infra ASAP." Feb 16 05:58:06 alright, at least this is something where I really contribute something concrete :) Feb 16 05:58:09 yes, some order please... we can have free discussion after qgil_ has done answering Feb 16 05:58:19 but at least rpm spec files can be written easily, as opposed to debian packages Feb 16 05:58:41 so it is clear that the lack of well formed "community" aspects in MeeGo is not due to the fact that MeeGo doesn't care about the community or even that Moblin didn't have **** community Feb 16 05:59:17 the fact is that we simply didn't want to kickstart any serious community discussion and planning before the community was aware about the mergeç Feb 16 05:59:23 rpm and deb discussion is redundant theres no going back and its all personal opinion, habits and comforts Feb 16 05:59:28 why not sharing the merge with the community *before* the launch? Feb 16 05:59:47 well, simply because the day we would have communicated the merge, that day would have been the launch Feb 16 06:00:10 and we wanted a sound launch, a clear message not only for the Maemo and Moblin or even free software communities Feb 16 06:00:29 but a sound and bold move to be seen and considered by the whole mobile industry Feb 16 06:00:45 which I think has been fairly achieved with yesterday's launch Feb 16 06:00:49 a launch that didn't leak Feb 16 06:00:59 even if the leak would have been a single credible sentence Feb 16 06:01:09 so Feb 16 06:01:09 i leaked it but nobody took notice of me Feb 16 06:01:24 i saw you read it] Feb 16 06:01:29 yes, let's work on this MeeGo community Feb 16 06:01:39 Maemo and Moblin have very complementary communities, actually Feb 16 06:02:04 the fast conclusion from the Maemo side seems to be that Maemo has a community while Moblin has nothing at that level Feb 16 06:02:07 well, true and false Feb 16 06:02:12 I'd love to see some of the maemo.org website stuff used on meego.com Feb 16 06:02:14 true if you look only at the user and app developer level Feb 16 06:02:16 qgil: Maybe I am repeating someone else's question, but what happens of maemo.org? Do we invite Moblin people in, or do we close it down and go...elsewhere? Feb 16 06:02:21 but this is half the MeeGo story Feb 16 06:02:52 Moblin has a stronger open platform development (Maemo is catching up thanks to http://maemo.gitorious.org and etc) Feb 16 06:03:44 and Moblin has a strong network of commercial partners, device manufacturers and etc that Maemo really lacks, due to the fact that it was a project run by Nokia and that's it Feb 16 06:04:02 so please let's put more thoughts on what is the MeeGo community, really Feb 16 06:04:08 without forgetting anybody Feb 16 06:04:19 this, in my opinion, requires a proper working group Feb 16 06:04:19 qgil: Well, the question still stands Feb 16 06:04:25 as described at (searching URL) Feb 16 06:04:49 qgil: My personal opinion is that maemo.org should remain the community hub because Moblin does not have anything similar (or user base. or developer base.) Feb 16 06:04:51 http://meego.com/about/governance Feb 16 06:05:11 RST38h: leme finish and I go back tyo you :) Feb 16 06:05:18 qgil: Hmm, ok. Feb 16 06:05:43 So my proposal (that I will send to meego-dev today) Feb 16 06:05:59 is that we create a Community working group with mailing list wiki pages, etc Feb 16 06:06:03 with members etc Feb 16 06:06:16 an official body with an official channel to the steering group Feb 16 06:06:33 then about the priorities Feb 16 06:06:50 yes, maemo.org has plenty more energy from individuals Feb 16 06:07:08 and yes, Moblin has plenty more energy from organizations Feb 16 06:07:16 let's ombine both and this will be unstoppable Feb 16 06:07:27 But the name. <_< Feb 16 06:07:41 maemo.org theming can be changed a little bit Feb 16 06:07:49 GeneralAntilles: oh yeah baby, it sucks Feb 16 06:07:52 any brand becomes something in it's own after 101 times Feb 16 06:07:56 or even made look different depending on the entry point URL Feb 16 06:07:58 * arjan reminds GA about what happens when you put lawyers and branding people from two big companies in a room. A wonder anything came out at all Feb 16 06:08:11 Now everything is beatuful with Maemo, nobody recalls the arguments Feb 16 06:08:23 Imagine when someone proposed "Yahoo!" Feb 16 06:08:28 qgil: So, let me clarify: you suggest that we start from scratch? New wiki, new mailing lists, etc? Feb 16 06:08:31 etc, let's move forward since the name will stay Feb 16 06:08:44 RST38h: Feb 16 06:08:51 no, I'm not suggesting anything Feb 16 06:09:02 all these are tools with content in databases hosted in servers Feb 16 06:09:11 under a domain Feb 16 06:09:18 RST38h: I'm pretty sure meego welcomes A LOT of that stuff Feb 16 06:09:20 qgil: is that we create a Community working group with mailing list ... Feb 16 06:09:22 just need to get that dialog going Feb 16 06:10:18 arjan: meego is not a person, it cannot "welcome" anything or maintain a dialog Feb 16 06:10:46 RST38h: now now, let's not be pedantic, that's my role. Feb 16 06:11:02 crash: Just playing Captain Obvious =) Feb 16 06:11:31 qgil_: can you have a look at the questions I pm'd you? Feb 16 06:11:44 So, I suggest we start by figurign out who we are supposed to maintain the dialog with. Actual people, I mean, names, addresses, you know... Feb 16 06:12:10 theres a lot of developers and hackers who use only forums so will t.m.o be rebranded and merged or will we start a fresh on meego or will we need to go else where? Feb 16 06:12:18 RST38h: just take the white pages for finland and pick anyone at random, good chance they'll be working for Nokia anyway Feb 16 06:12:20 RST38h: this is what "a working group" offers. It has members, facilitators... Feb 16 06:12:21 isn't it the same kind of problem as with Mer, that we are actually the community and the upstream project, so we have to figure out how to talk to eachother? Feb 16 06:12:35 noone to complain to but ourselves :) Feb 16 06:12:35 we are bootstrapping all this so the definition of "working group" is open Feb 16 06:12:52 sorry, a call Feb 16 06:13:30 crash: Well, I can go one floor up at work and ask... Feb 16 06:13:45 crash: But suspect that nobody will know. Feb 16 06:14:01 RST38h: you live in Finland's basement? Feb 16 06:14:11 crashanddie: do that and the answer will just be "dunno, call one floor up" Feb 16 06:14:20 crash: No. Feb 16 06:14:49 Stskeeps: PM Feb 16 06:15:20 Well, there is another way to do it: I can ask my manager to ask his manager and tell him that I wish to become the facilitator between two sides Feb 16 06:16:16 RST38h: like we'd ever let that happen Feb 16 06:16:23 That may actually work, after flashing credentials Feb 16 06:16:38 RST38h: nah we can short circuit that Feb 16 06:16:44 RST38h: I know the folks on the intel side very well Feb 16 06:16:48 and if you want I can bridge the contacts Feb 16 06:17:02 I'll open a conf bridge Feb 16 06:17:02 crashanddie: i think it's a bit heavy-handed to moderate a 282 person channel so one person can speak, the content should come through anyway and if there's issues of people interrupting between the lines, it would be a matter of saying i'd take questions afterwards if it was needed.. (imho) Feb 16 06:17:10 you'd be surprised how much can be done quickly if the right people just talk to eachother Feb 16 06:17:14 arjan: I cannot do that without getting permission from management Feb 16 06:17:36 Stskeeps: it's more because you get roughly 20 people asking nearly the same questions all at the same time Feb 16 06:18:19 we're still small enough, it seems :/ Feb 16 06:18:25 hello Feb 16 06:18:27 :) Feb 16 06:18:47 Stskeeps: 283 big enough? :P Feb 16 06:19:35 i'm scared someone hold me Feb 16 06:19:37 :) Feb 16 06:20:04 * RST38h asks the Tentacled One to hold itdock Feb 16 06:20:14 ooh tentacles, sounds stimulating :) Feb 16 06:20:26 * Suurorca laughs diabolically Feb 16 06:21:18 but seriously i'm happy for Meego, but I hope I don't have to replace my 2 month old n900 to jump on the bandwagon Feb 16 06:21:39 I just sold my n97, this is starting to hurt :P Feb 16 06:23:05 well, the n900 was the first device ever to fit my image what mobile communications should be, but it's still not quite there Feb 16 06:23:13 i stilll have a n97, 5800, n96. n95 8gb and n900 i will donate my n900 to some1 when next device with maemo/meego comes out Feb 16 06:23:24 lmao Feb 16 06:23:31 take screenshot quick and hold me to it Feb 16 06:23:44 Feb 16 06:23:47 apparently first devices in q2 2010 Feb 16 06:23:49 which is like Feb 16 06:23:53 with meego, there's a lot stronger chance for me getting my ideal toy/tool sooner rather than later Feb 16 06:23:54 * arjan still has an E65i.. but my n900 ricks Feb 16 06:23:54 next few months Feb 16 06:24:00 rocks Feb 16 06:24:06 really the n900 is awesome Feb 16 06:24:15 i hope maemo 5 isn't the end for the n900 Feb 16 06:24:54 i will begrudgingly buy whatever new device comes out but i was hoping the n900 would be it for at least 1.5 years Feb 16 06:25:07 well, at some point I was already certain that maemo6 will never come on n900, and in a few years time I'd be forced to move to mer Feb 16 06:25:31 Suurorca: i'd say it looks like it's saner to work on Meego on N900 project instead. Feb 16 06:25:42 indeed Feb 16 06:26:01 i was too but nokia can't possibly abandon the masses of n900'ers who made the maemo community flourish in recent months? Feb 16 06:26:19 guess again Feb 16 06:26:29 i don't see why the n900 can't run meego, technically speaking? Feb 16 06:26:36 wouldn't be new Feb 16 06:26:41 no, it wouldn't Feb 16 06:27:01 itdock: the hard part for any such thing is drivers Feb 16 06:27:03 but with meego, getting a rational backport to n900 should be a lot easier Feb 16 06:27:06 if they're not part of the upstream kernel Feb 16 06:27:16 not sure exactly what the n900 situation is wrt that Feb 16 06:27:33 some drivers have been forwarded upstream Feb 16 06:27:43 how is a kernel an issue though? i mean, of course we should encourage upstream kernels, but directly banning any deriatives from being a port? :P Feb 16 06:27:43 as many have pointed out at the maemo forums, maemo was starting to drift uncomfortably far from the debian upstream Feb 16 06:27:47 well, looking at the meego diagrams, it's up to the device manufacturer to provide kernel modules for the devices Feb 16 06:27:55 back, sorry Feb 16 06:28:05 Stskeeps: it;s just more work to put drivers back that are not upstream Feb 16 06:28:08 so nokia could still provide kernel modules for the meego kernel for the n900 with relative ease Feb 16 06:28:10 even with all the changes my manager is my manager and I better answer his phone call :) Feb 16 06:28:22 itdock: oh absolutely. it's just more work Feb 16 06:28:26 what question now? Feb 16 06:29:05 anything else about the community aspect? Feb 16 06:29:24 crashanddie: I won't look at the PMed questions, ask them here :) Feb 16 06:29:51 qgil_: what does it mean for maemo in clear terms (underlying questions: will the devs stop working on releases/bugfixes for maemo? If so, when?; will Nokia stop funding the servers? If so, when?; How will future releases be handled (what about device drivers?)? Feb 16 06:30:30 Maemo 5 has its plans that go forward independently from MeeGo Feb 16 06:30:39 there is an update around the corner and more planned Feb 16 06:30:55 Maemo 6 is the new MeeGo Feb 16 06:31:12 in fact it's a transition Feb 16 06:31:12 I'm guessing no SSU for this one Feb 16 06:31:19 :P Feb 16 06:31:30 Maemo 6 (Harmattan) is the mother of MeeGo (or the father, up to you), being Moblin 2.x the other partner Feb 16 06:31:50 two mothers? Cool. Feb 16 06:31:52 SSU from a deb system to an rpm would be indeed an interesting engineering exercise Feb 16 06:32:08 qgil_: at least it would shut up most naysayers! Feb 16 06:32:10 qgil: So are you killing the mother or letting her live on the next device? Feb 16 06:32:20 there are no changes in the Harmattan program because of MeeGo Feb 16 06:32:32 same architecture , deb, etc Feb 16 06:32:33 ah, ok Feb 16 06:32:39 :o Feb 16 06:32:43 but the API level will be common Feb 16 06:32:51 which means basically same story for app developers Feb 16 06:32:56 hmmm Feb 16 06:33:07 qgil: weeelll...usually not quite Feb 16 06:33:12 the UI framework will be the same Feb 16 06:33:21 so there will be a harmattan device before meego? Feb 16 06:33:25 deb->rpm is possible, as long as you can "translate" the installed packages database Feb 16 06:33:27 morning quim Feb 16 06:33:35 arachnist: don't even go there! Feb 16 06:33:43 and for end users basically they will see a MeeGo type of desktop compatible with MeeGo apps Feb 16 06:33:46 after that, it's just a matter of reinstallng packages Feb 16 06:33:50 qgil: there are different system library versions, different locations of system files, etc Feb 16 06:34:02 crashanddie: and "there" being...? Feb 16 06:34:06 RST38h: typically backwards compatible, and if you code towards Qt, it shouldn't matter. Feb 16 06:34:25 LSB does do some good once in a while Feb 16 06:34:31 RST38h: Harmattan and MeeGo haven't done their first releases so the diff is unknown Feb 16 06:34:52 Stskeeps: Is Moblin LSB compliant? Feb 16 06:34:59 RST38h: yes. Feb 16 06:35:10 RST38h: with the caveat that LSB requires printing, and that is optional in moblin Feb 16 06:35:11 RST38h: it's be kinda silly coming from linux foundation and not being Feb 16 06:35:16 arjan: Cool, at least that is good Feb 16 06:35:38 Stskeeps: Well, I have seen people yesterday claiming RedHat is not LSB compliant Feb 16 06:36:14 add to the mix that by the time there is a Nokia device running Harmattan / MeeGo API there should be other MeeGo devices and other Symbian devices with basically the same API Feb 16 06:36:26 already this year, according to the announced plans of all parties Feb 16 06:36:27 Then the only two concerns are going to be 1) mishmatching system libs and 2) RPM Feb 16 06:36:45 what mismatching system libs? Feb 16 06:36:50 qgil: What is "Symbian devices with the same API"? Feb 16 06:37:06 RST38h: i think there's probably be dual packaging to some degree, at least how i see it - OBS can probably handle this quite well Feb 16 06:37:07 Symbian is also going Qt 4.6 and Web Runtime Feb 16 06:37:32 far as I understand it meego will be mostly moblin, so why are we mentioning harmattan at all? I'm guessing it'll be an interim release of no greater concern... Feb 16 06:37:35 qgil: It has been long revealed that Maemo and Symbian will use incompatible QT-based frameworks Feb 16 06:37:45 Please let's wait to the first MeeGo and Harmattan releases before talking about mismatches Feb 16 06:38:05 RST38h: I did not know that... when/where'd you read that? Feb 16 06:38:13 qgil: Also, when you say "API", it does not mean "UI API" to most of us Feb 16 06:38:23 tybollt: tmo Feb 16 06:38:34 hrrm, very well Feb 16 06:38:37 both have the same Qt 4.6, what it hasn't been communicated is the API to be recommended to developers willing to go deeper than plain QGraphicsView & QML Feb 16 06:38:39 qgil: When I say "API" I mean the whole thing from libc up Feb 16 06:38:45 qgil_, any thoughts about how devs will target devices with such vastly different hardware? Feb 16 06:39:06 When I say API I mean the API we will offer to developers looking for cross-platform compatibility Feb 16 06:39:09 (screen, input, CPU power, RAM) Feb 16 06:39:10 same way as all linux does it today Feb 16 06:39:20 it works, don't worry too much about that... Feb 16 06:39:25 then it's a Linux open platform so yes, you have plenty more APIs to deal with if you wish: your choice Feb 16 06:39:31 johnx, boo, you should just be content with "they have the same api " :) Feb 16 06:39:45 qgil: UI API is not enough for developers, sorry Feb 16 06:40:03 Qt Mobility to the rescue, then Feb 16 06:40:11 anyway, details :) Feb 16 06:40:11 qgil: there is also memory allocation, file access, threads, timers, audio, etc Feb 16 06:40:21 let's start discussing this when there is an SDK for you Feb 16 06:40:25 RST38h: I think Qt handles a frightening amount of that stuff Feb 16 06:40:32 weren't both symbian and maemo supposed to have some set of libraries (incompatible with each other) sitting on top of qt, instead of going with plain qt? Feb 16 06:40:42 Qt handles *all* of those and much more Feb 16 06:40:42 qgil_: well that is the point isn't it? All we can do right now is ... wait >:) Feb 16 06:40:57 tybollt: no, there are plenty more areas not to wait Feb 16 06:41:04 like... ? Feb 16 06:41:07 microlith,ali1234: well, using Qt for this makes your code unportable Feb 16 06:41:13 no, it doesn't Feb 16 06:41:15 So, the short answer is Feb 16 06:41:20 "no" Feb 16 06:41:21 writing your code against bare metal makes it unportable Feb 16 06:41:28 tybollt: what do you do in life, what are your skills and interests? Feb 16 06:41:37 ali1234: The is Posix. Feb 16 06:41:47 there Feb 16 06:41:51 my wonder is what happens with respect to the community repos vs. myriad devices from diverse vendors Feb 16 06:41:53 posix doesn't work very well on windows Feb 16 06:42:08 ali1234: Works for me. Feb 16 06:42:15 "will Nokia stop funding the servers?" Feb 16 06:42:20 not so much funding Feb 16 06:42:27 qgil_: :P Feb 16 06:42:31 RST38h: qt provides an abstraction layer above whatever native interfaces for threads/timers/files/whatever are there Feb 16 06:42:35 we will keep putting our budget wherever is useful Feb 16 06:42:43 as compatibility, and whether or not there is anything to ensure access (whether vendors won't just disable them on the device, etc.) Feb 16 06:42:57 arachnist: As I said, it is very nice, but I am not going to rely on Qt for portability Feb 16 06:42:57 I don't know if meego has any visibilty into that area though Feb 16 06:42:59 RST38h: and really, it works, as long as you don't try to mix in too many non-qt things Feb 16 06:43:23 arachnist: Nor do I expect many other developers do that Feb 16 06:43:48 i expect a lot of developers to do it actually Feb 16 06:43:50 RST38h: may i ask why? Feb 16 06:44:16 RST38h: if you don't rely in the APIs MeeGo offers you for cross-platform compatibility then please don't complain about lack of cross-compatibility: it's your choice :) Feb 16 06:44:18 RST38h: you'll be wasting your time by not doing that Feb 16 06:44:24 mmm Feb 16 06:44:27 arachnist: example: a nameless ARM-based embedded system (someone's PMP) running Linux. No Qt. Fucked. Feb 16 06:44:30 Morning. They said that devices powering Meego will be coming end of this year. Does this release have parts of both Moblin and Maemo already? Feb 16 06:44:47 looks like my connection on my desktop has died again Feb 16 06:44:56 the first MeeGo release will come quite soon actually Feb 16 06:45:00 arachnist: Another example: MSDOS. No Qt. Fucked. Feb 16 06:45:13 from unstable to stable there will be some ironing I guess, just as usual Feb 16 06:45:20 qgil_: what people doesn't really ask, how does Nokia plan to be using Meego, take open source base UI, sprinkle differentiators on top? Feb 16 06:45:32 arachnist: Third example: Normal Unix but not X11, using command line interface with curses instead. Fucked. Feb 16 06:45:34 RST38h: qt is available now for just about every smartphone operating system out there, with the exception being iphoneos Feb 16 06:45:46 actually, if the concept of a community repo dies, then meego ends up like android Feb 16 06:45:57 arachnist: Not available for my particular ebedded Linux on my particular hardware. Fucked. Feb 16 06:46:07 Stskeeps: platform development is a cost (unless you license the platform for a price) Feb 16 06:46:10 arachnist: So, sorry, not relying on Qt. Feb 16 06:46:13 RST38h: you can raise these objections against *any* toolkit Feb 16 06:46:14 chasing rpms and paying $0.99 for every application Feb 16 06:46:20 now the cost is shared with more parties. Intel today, more expected to come Feb 16 06:46:30 RST38h: who's using msdos these days? and as for PMP, i'd expect those to use directfb. and guess what? qt can draw to directfb Feb 16 06:46:52 RST38h: so what do you suggest as an alternative? Feb 16 06:46:53 the revenues come from devices and services, mainly Feb 16 06:46:59 ali1234: Posix. Available everywhere in some shape. Feb 16 06:47:11 RST38h: posix is s***. Feb 16 06:47:23 Nokia bets for open platforms as best foundations for great devices and commercial services Feb 16 06:47:25 arachnist: Well sorry to hear you do not like it Feb 16 06:47:33 posix ... yeah ... and then we will lose portable sound, and any kind of ability to make GUIs Feb 16 06:47:53 ali1234: You do not have portable sound anyway. It is a fiction. Feb 16 06:47:58 RST38h: it allows so many exceptions in implementations, that it's a shame it has been approved as a standard Feb 16 06:48:23 anything else I can help claifying? Feb 16 06:48:24 arachnist: As I said, it works for me. Feb 16 06:48:24 qgil_: sounds good - on a unrelated sidenote, the MBX saga should finish today with TI having uploaded drivers (or start, depending on perspective) Feb 16 06:48:50 arachnist: Works on MSDOS, Windows, Unix, Symbian, Maemo Feb 16 06:48:55 RST38h: with qt you have at least one good reference implementation that is available for just about every platform you are going to encounter Feb 16 06:48:58 Stskeeps: in the MeeGo setting you can ask TI or whoever owns the silicon that bother you Feb 16 06:49:04 by using QT specific api your in affect target 350 million devices why would you go another Feb 16 06:49:14 way Feb 16 06:49:16 every hardware adaptation will be maintained by it's owners Feb 16 06:49:20 arachnist: 1) Qt is not available for every platform that I program for 2) Qt does not allow for royalty-free commercial use Feb 16 06:49:47 RST38h: 2) it does not? isn't it LGPL these days? Feb 16 06:49:51 RST38h, you don't seem to be totally up-to-date... Feb 16 06:49:55 qgil_: did you say earlier that maemo 6 hartmattan will be deb based but share the same API with meego? Feb 16 06:49:57 arachnist: Ok, scratch #2 Feb 16 06:50:12 arachnist: It allows for 2) as long as your platform supports DLLs Feb 16 06:50:15 in the maemo context all products were Nokia and therefore Nokia was seen as primary responsible of everything, from hardware drivers to Flash releases Feb 16 06:50:28 now the setting is more clean: every maintainers has responsibility over his stuff Feb 16 06:50:47 itdock: yes, Harmattan is a transition Feb 16 06:50:59 RST38h: what platforms are you developing for? really, the only major mobile platform that's not targettable by using qt is iphone these days Feb 16 06:51:07 qgil_: is there any way of forcing that responsibility, or could a vendor abandon their users out of the gate? Feb 16 06:51:14 arachnist: I listed platforms I develop for above Feb 16 06:51:16 it was choosing this compromise or delaying the program... for no good reason since most users and app developers would not really care about the platform differences Feb 16 06:51:18 qgil_: As moblin UI is based on GTK I guess that Maemo UI will replace it in the first meego device? Or will there be completely different UI for it? I noticed that the Maemo 6 UI framework (http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework) is released to public. Feb 16 06:51:23 arachnist: Sorry, have to go to work. Feb 16 06:52:06 microlith: if a vendor abandons their users they will go to another vendor - it's not that there is lack of users with good money in the mobile sector Feb 16 06:52:09 RST38h: have fun. hope you enjoy developing for msdos Feb 16 06:52:14 qgil_: Will maemo 5 be well supported by Nokia et. al. into the future? Feb 16 06:52:22 I'm saving that one Feb 16 06:52:27 er... too many questions again Feb 16 06:52:30 qgil_: how will you(we?) be working to prevent FUD spreading rapidly wrt the N900 and its current support? Feb 16 06:53:04 N900 Feb 16 06:53:16 arachnist: I do not really "develop for MSDOS". I develop portable code, then compile it on MSDOS whenever needed. Feb 16 06:53:16 updates will make N900 users feel better Feb 16 06:53:26 they must get used to open development and sharing future plans, though Feb 16 06:53:33 so you can confirm there will be updates for N900 going forward? Feb 16 06:53:40 also many of them think that Maemo 5 = N900 and N900 = Maemo 5 Feb 16 06:53:43 arachnist: It works, after plugging a few holes (audio, input, screen access), same as it works on Unix Feb 16 06:53:48 qgil_: Good Morning. Any thoughts about does MeeGo contain some extra layer built on top of Qt? I'm sure you read the discussion of "Code compatibility.." in Maemo.org? Or is the default API the API that Qt will provide? Feb 16 06:53:54 portable code with blatant posix abuses, recipe for an extreme engineering. Feb 16 06:54:10 Then do not abuse. Feb 16 06:54:12 and they also think that any Nokian they find in some forum must answer his customer questions or at least must know The Truth hidden somewhere Feb 16 06:54:16 they are going to dump that rpm madness, aren't they? Feb 16 06:54:35 qgil_: not necesarily... the way I (as N900 user) see it is we are kind of eagerly awaiting word on whether the device has a future (in terms of updates/upgrades) or not. Feb 16 06:54:40 RST38h: i have yet to see msdos port of qt, but qt "plugs holes" on many platforms Feb 16 06:54:43 I wish a business guy would go and say something, but business has its agenda Feb 16 06:55:01 boy I sure wouldn't want to be a nokia care rep answering the phone this morning :P Feb 16 06:55:04 this is why I can only keep talking about the technical side of things: Qt 4.6 and etc Feb 16 06:55:04 tybollt: i like to think that we are given the power to do something about it, not tied into vendor upgrades Feb 16 06:55:15 the msdos guy is a troll just ignore him :P Feb 16 06:55:16 Stskeeps: fair enough... Feb 16 06:55:24 noone seriously thinks msdos is of use to anyone Feb 16 06:55:42 what sounds funny to me though is (but again please take this sentence in this colloquial context) Feb 16 06:56:33 that MeeGo is announced to run in all kinds of devices from mobile devices, from handsets to netb ooks, connected TVs, automotive.... Feb 16 06:56:48 and then the first conclusion a N900 makes is "they are dropping my lovely N900!" Feb 16 06:57:02 it's ridiculous Feb 16 06:57:10 they are going to distribute bastardized version of qt with obscure and subtle api and abi changes, so expect your applications to cras in a funny ways. Feb 16 06:57:12 but amusing Feb 16 06:57:41 well, there's going to be a radical change in the OS now Feb 16 06:57:51 qgil_: - point taken, but what about nokia n800 and n810 users? they are also out in the cold... Feb 16 06:57:53 like what? Feb 16 06:57:56 radical means stupid. Feb 16 06:58:02 radical dude Feb 16 06:58:03 no more .debs eventually? Feb 16 06:58:05 sheepbat: more radical than between maemo 4 and maemo 5? Feb 16 06:58:11 qgil_: not really... it's more like "here nokia boasts its all new and shiny flagship together with this (fairly) new OS Maemo and then a month later they drop support for it - wtf did Nokia just assrape a few thousand worth of linux-nerds?" Feb 16 06:58:13 sheepbat: they're hardly the same OS Feb 16 06:58:23 itdock: i'll be working on fremantle backport for n8x0 still, but meego - who knows, we'll see Feb 16 06:58:31 tybollt: they didn't drop support for it Feb 16 06:58:47 itdock: and concentrating more on this effort now :) Feb 16 06:58:48 tybollt: you have your 1 or 2 year warranty, nobody sold you 10 years of software support Feb 16 06:58:49 crashanddie sure, I'm just stating what may have been an initial reaction... Feb 16 06:58:50 do they still support Mer? Feb 16 06:58:50 It's the "drop support" thing that I really don't understand Feb 16 06:58:52 hehe Feb 16 06:58:55 it's not true, full stop Feb 16 06:58:57 ty for your efforts Feb 16 06:59:03 I wouldn't call it a drop of support Feb 16 06:59:05 tybollt: just replying what I would say Feb 16 06:59:09 just uncertainty Feb 16 06:59:12 qgil_: agreed Feb 16 06:59:20 crashanddie: ack Feb 16 06:59:29 r0b0t0: there's no change in maemo.org staffing or community projects. i personally recommend for most purposes, people contribute to meego. Feb 16 06:59:31 uncertainty happens when big giant changes happen Feb 16 06:59:36 i knew about some of the future when i purchased a n900 which is why i said i dont another OS on it b/c i want excuse for new toys but thinking about some good news about n900 would be nice for others morale Feb 16 06:59:51 qgil_: the truth is, most users wouldn't even notice the difference Feb 16 07:00:10 suggestion: N900 users enjoy your N900, doing otherwise is not very clever Feb 16 07:00:20 oh, I'll certainly be doing that Feb 16 07:00:29 so since Maemo was based on Debian and Moblin based on Fedora and MeeGo is using RPM, i guess that means MeeGo will be closer to Fedora than to Debian/Ubuntu Feb 16 07:00:33 @Stskeeps why meego, maemo is just way more robust system. Feb 16 07:00:42 itdock: i don't belive qt is a real issue for n800 or n810. you should be able to compile qt for it Feb 16 07:00:47 it's an excellent device, and I'll be enjoying it as long as I can Feb 16 07:00:50 r0b0t0: you have obviously not tried to work with maemo in the machine room on a daily basis Feb 16 07:00:53 r0b0t0: :P Feb 16 07:00:57 chelz: that sentence perhaps made sense 5 years ago, not today Feb 16 07:01:09 chelz, it's a packaging system, there are many pieces that are more important... Feb 16 07:01:10 deb was not Debian for Maemo, rpm is not Fedora for Moblin Feb 16 07:01:26 but I'm done with the deb/rpm discussion - more new questions I can help answering? Feb 16 07:01:33 @Stskeeps you are purely speculating with your rpm crap sys. Feb 16 07:01:54 qgil_: is meego going to be developed more in the open than maemo was? Feb 16 07:02:09 I wish yu guy an honest bankrupt with tht meego thingy... Feb 16 07:02:12 arachnist: just saying, nokia has a history of abandoning older devices, which is why people are skeptical when a new direction is announced Feb 16 07:02:14 ali1234: MeeGo is an open platform and will be developed openly Feb 16 07:02:27 by Nokia, Intel and whoever else wants to join Feb 16 07:02:27 qgil_: would you say the same thing about maemo? Feb 16 07:02:36 so much with the openness... rpm hel from now on and forever. Feb 16 07:02:38 MeeGo is the new maemo Feb 16 07:02:50 memo is the beter meego. Feb 16 07:02:54 better even. Feb 16 07:02:56 i'll take that as a "no" then Feb 16 07:03:09 r0b0t0: then stay with Maemo 5 and have fun, no worries Feb 16 07:03:13 as in "no it won't be developed any more in the open" Feb 16 07:03:22 or port to MeeGo whatever you find coo in Maemo that will not be in MeeGo Feb 16 07:03:28 maemo has never been open enough, meego is a good move Feb 16 07:03:52 lol how does he know maemo is better than meego there not even a line of code to compare yet lol Feb 16 07:03:53 qgil_: I mean, if you look at the main part of (very vocal) people on tmo, the only thing they would notice are the applications being a bit different, but those who are trolling the rpm vs deb thread mostly don't even know what the difference is. It's ignorance-driven-fear and the only way we can combat that is by posting wiki articles with huge amounts of information Feb 16 07:04:04 baed on unprincipled technical decisions. changing programming interfaces in a subtle way included. Feb 16 07:04:19 ali1234: I don't get you. Maemo platform development is now MeeGo platform development Feb 16 07:04:26 is MeeGo going to get packages directly from upstream or modify new packages that come out from another distribution? Feb 16 07:04:31 hmm.. yes, crashanddie Feb 16 07:04:34 maybe usb host mode will be back Feb 16 07:04:51 whyhi: only if the hardware supports it Feb 16 07:04:54 from what I've seen so far, meego guys are clueless with regard to deb and debian policies. Feb 16 07:04:54 rpm is OK - most ubuntu & debian debs are not usable on maemo 5 because they are not optified Feb 16 07:05:05 you can't install much on 256 mb of space Feb 16 07:05:06 chelz: MeeGo wiorks directly upstream, just like Maemo and Moblin did Feb 16 07:05:43 i see one difference between deb and rpm: it's easier to write rpm .spec files Feb 16 07:05:43 why do you change he interfaces people based their code upon? Feb 16 07:05:52 ubuntu debs for N900?? o.O Feb 16 07:05:53 arachnist you are laik. Feb 16 07:05:54 so I am ok with the switch to RPM, though I am a huge supporter of apt and .deb Feb 16 07:05:56 r0b0t0: it's called progress? Feb 16 07:06:06 qgil_: my experience in reporting bugs in maemo is that the bug reports disappear inside nokia and a few months later a fix comes out as part of a huge bundle of updates Feb 16 07:06:08 r0b0t0: from developer point of view, these changes have been announced very very early on Feb 16 07:06:16 qgil_: ah interesting. is there a roadmap anywhere of what parts are being taken from Maemo/Moblin and perhaps rationales? Feb 16 07:06:19 ali1234: it seems like there'll be a public bugtracker by default, which is a plus Feb 16 07:06:20 qgil_, well, you have a modified GTK+ version Feb 16 07:06:30 still talking packagings? i'm off this channel. i may come back at the end of the year when we see first devices Feb 16 07:06:30 qgil_: my experience on reporting bugs on intel open source stuff is quite different Feb 16 07:06:31 no you are deadly wrong in doing so... Feb 16 07:06:47 ali1234: bug handling should be just as transparent in MeeGo as in any distro you appreciate Feb 16 07:06:54 hi all. is there a #meego log yet? Feb 16 07:07:03 ali1234: the secrecy in Maemo was/is tied to secret device products Feb 16 07:07:10 arachnist: I see another difference, deb based repositories are easier to follow. Lets take for example packages.debian.org what is the alternative for for example fedora? 3rd party rpm.pbone.net? Feb 16 07:07:24 iryge, don't think so. Feb 16 07:07:29 Somebody needs to poke mgedmin. Feb 16 07:07:32 but MeeGo is a platform which is agnostic in terms of products, since there are many device manufacturares working on it and handling whatever bugs bother them more Feb 16 07:07:42 hi, GeneralAntilles Feb 16 07:07:44 Sage they are just clueless, and trying to comment of stuff they have barely read about. Feb 16 07:07:48 no experience at all. Feb 16 07:07:49 separation platform / product is done, as well as separation of open / closed since the platform is open Feb 16 07:08:03 it's a good thing, no doubt about it... Feb 16 07:08:14 r0b0t0: i'm sorry, but you're trolling - i'm really sure that these people know what they're talking about Feb 16 07:08:29 r0b0t0, who are these people you keep referring to? Feb 16 07:08:42 r0b0t0: i have had equal nightmares with dpkg as i did with rpm, they both serve same purpose. Feb 16 07:08:47 r0b0t0: [citation needed] Feb 16 07:08:48 anything else I can help clarifying? Feb 16 07:08:55 they replied for the name of intel yesterday ... forgot the nicknames sorry. Feb 16 07:08:58 theres a lot of developers and hackers who use only forums so will t.m.o be rebranded and merged or will we start a fresh on meego or will we need to go else where? Feb 16 07:08:58 reading r0b0t0s comments are painful Feb 16 07:08:59 at some point I need to do some other work :) Feb 16 07:09:12 qgil_: yes Feb 16 07:09:15 qgil_: i did ask a question a few lines ago, just making sure you saw it Feb 16 07:09:19 no stay here we will chain you to your desk :) Feb 16 07:09:21 r0b0t0: as for no experience, i work as a sysadmin and i had to create quite a few packages, both debs and rpm (usually because the distro versions were lagging and some features were needed) Feb 16 07:09:21 whyhi: up to the Talk crew, I guess Feb 16 07:09:23 whyhi: that's up to community Feb 16 07:09:24 qgil_: when are you going to be active on the fora/distribution lists again? Feb 16 07:09:27 r0b0t0 considered harmful and ultimately unscientific Feb 16 07:09:41 qgil_: and no, brainstorm and your chess threads aren't what I call "being active" Feb 16 07:09:49 I don't say I have much experience about these things, however I think that what ever the desicion would have been between rpm and deb there would always be people those are for the change and those who are against. Feb 16 07:09:55 that good news qgil b/c a lot of people thought they had no future Feb 16 07:10:01 crashanddie: I'm posting basically everyday, several times... Feb 16 07:10:13 qgil_: yeah, but I never see you in Community Feb 16 07:10:20 qgil_: and you used to be a big part of it Feb 16 07:10:38 i always see him there Feb 16 07:10:40 crashanddie: because Community can handle itself better now? There is not lack of people, certainly Feb 16 07:10:41 If they wouldn't have sayd that Meego is based on Maemo and Moblin and just created new distribution, which would have collected packages from these two. Who would have complained about the packaging? Feb 16 07:10:53 as usual, if there is anything where you want my input, just send me url Feb 16 07:10:54 qgil_: no, but there is lack of wisdom and guidance Feb 16 07:10:56 r0b0t0: please read through http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/blog/2006/07/oscon_how_open_source_projects.html - that's how we're trying to engage you as well, but a certain level of politeness, respect, trust and humility is needed from your side as well to have a constructive conversation Feb 16 07:11:19 I remember being promised in the first Maemo Summit that I would only need to spend 1h a week to know what was going in the maemo community ;) Feb 16 07:11:33 (actually now with MWKN we're getting there) ;) Feb 16 07:11:37 qgil_: and you've seen MWKN Feb 16 07:11:59 working on the twitter API atm, actually Feb 16 07:12:03 for mwkn Feb 16 07:12:28 @Stskeeps please do not acuse me of being rude. I provided strict tech arguments... you keep saying that it makes no difference whatever is used as pm, whether interfaces changes in a subtle ways. Feb 16 07:12:28 crashanddie: the last weeks have been pretty crazy with the MeeGo stuff Feb 16 07:12:41 now I have a clear mission (help with the future of maemo.org) and I will concentrate on that Feb 16 07:13:04 helpt transition maemo.org to meego.org, you mean? Feb 16 07:13:04 r0b0t0: saying people are "clueless" is being rude, because they are in positions that would force them to have a clue Feb 16 07:13:09 honestly, being recalled every tghird post that Ovi Maps has free navigation and etc doesn't make casual posting that exciting either... Feb 16 07:13:27 crashanddie not if you store yuor pointer in ints! Feb 16 07:13:28 qgil_: tell me about it Feb 16 07:13:36 r0b0t0: okay, let's start with basics - are you a maemo developer? Feb 16 07:14:01 @Stskeeps I'm developing life supporting systems! Feb 16 07:14:14 one new type of question? Feb 16 07:14:15 should i get some1 to start a thread and see what direction they want t.m.o to go, personally i feel it should be started over with only important things so structure can be got correct to minimise noise of whining, i can do if you like but but will be a few minutes Feb 16 07:14:16 r0b0t0: just answer the damn question :P Feb 16 07:14:26 r0b0t0: right, but have you ever tried to deal with packaging under maemo? Feb 16 07:14:33 about Talk Feb 16 07:14:40 I have been thinking, since I love that place Feb 16 07:14:42 whyhi: it's a moot point. If you ask people in tmo where they want tmo to go, then the answer will always be biased Feb 16 07:14:45 yes Feb 16 07:14:48 whyhi: we need a way to moderate posts down Feb 16 07:14:59 since the launch of the N900 things turned a bit mad Feb 16 07:15:00 only "Thanks" worked when the community was different Feb 16 07:15:05 growth, no problem Feb 16 07:15:06 but now it's full of whiners and asshats Feb 16 07:15:17 fuck you all and go bankrupt! Feb 16 07:15:18 but think now, if you start seeing all kinds of new devices with MeeGo inside Feb 16 07:15:20 qgil_: have you seen my blog post about the growth? Feb 16 07:15:29 Ok... Feb 16 07:15:37 some of them more mainstream, some of them more specialized, all of them bringing new customers and potemntial Talkers Feb 16 07:15:41 you say fuck as if though it is a bad thing... >:) Feb 16 07:15:42 on the other hand Feb 16 07:15:58 i think it as no choice but to move if it wants to be at the front of meego but needs to be done in a way that keeps the people who mean a lot to maemo talk Feb 16 07:16:05 at least as for today MeeGo is clearly intended to have an efficient collaboration among platform developers Feb 16 07:16:13 and offer good support to app developers Feb 16 07:16:35 meego has a very heavy technical side but it lacks a human face, seems to be the common theme Feb 16 07:16:41 qgil_, Maybe asked before: Will be necessary to download privative packages to develop for Meebo? (As now with maemo SDK) I guess no Feb 16 07:16:41 users are still not in the picture, really - which makes sense since they are not there before there are meeGo products Feb 16 07:16:47 what to do in this situation? Feb 16 07:16:51 chanop please. troll alarm Feb 16 07:16:57 split developer / user forums? Feb 16 07:17:02 Stskeeps: moblin, you mean? Feb 16 07:17:07 anyway, this is how far I got with this topic :) Feb 16 07:17:09 qgil_: that is a good option Feb 16 07:17:09 crashanddie: no, look at meego.com :) Feb 16 07:17:13 lol Feb 16 07:17:27 qgil_: at some point, with the size of a project, you need to separate devs and users Feb 16 07:17:40 qgil_: same issue as when maemo.org was heavily technically targetted and the insurge of n900 users, but this time around we can prepare better Feb 16 07:17:58 hey there Feb 16 07:17:58 did this channel appear from nothing yesterday and now has 300 users? Feb 16 07:18:04 what's wrong with meego-dev mailing list? Feb 16 07:18:09 even within users they are not all the same :9 Feb 16 07:18:19 qgil_: IMHO, FUD is inevitable because Nokias (very carefully) has avoided any and all statements about N900. N900 is now a legacy Nokia SHOULD'VE dealt with but they did not - this will hurt the meego transition. Meego people don't want to be recurringly slapped w/ the N900 issue they want to look forward - customers want to know what the hell happened w/ the hardware they just bought. Feb 16 07:18:28 I suppose developers will by far prefer mailing list to forum Feb 16 07:18:29 you see some of them with an OSS/Linux agenda and more awareness in general on software, what can you do with it etc Feb 16 07:18:30 qgil_: http://arrogantandcondescending.blogspot.com/2010/02/me-too.html#comments <-- scroll down to Asa's reply -- he knows what he's talking about Feb 16 07:18:33 Anyway - this will be fun, I'm goin to enjoy the ride >:) Feb 16 07:18:37 splitting forums solves nothing ppl will go where they think wisest ppl hang out to help them press the back icon lol Feb 16 07:19:00 whyhi: unless you don't authorise them Feb 16 07:19:24 or make sure the separate forums are on different pages, definitely not in the same list Feb 16 07:19:25 villemv, although, looking at the first day of the mailing isn't promising... :) Feb 16 07:19:29 while others love the product "hardware + platform + apps + services" and this is what interests to them, Feb 16 07:19:39 why not just keep developer community and user community seperate ? Feb 16 07:19:52 user/support community - developer community Feb 16 07:19:52 Blice: cos developers turn a blind eye to what users actually need Feb 16 07:19:55 it's a common trend Feb 16 07:20:04 you have to be engaged with your users Feb 16 07:20:11 i think leave then as it is for now on t.m.o last thing meego needs is press saying ppl are being shut out of contributing in discussions Feb 16 07:20:15 Stskeeps: no, you don't, and you can't Feb 16 07:20:16 Stskeeps: that's how any oss project goes... really. Feb 16 07:20:24 Stskeeps: OSS heritage if you will... Feb 16 07:20:32 Stskeeps: so have a brainstorm type thing (which you were already planning) to find out what users want Feb 16 07:20:35 ? Feb 16 07:20:59 Stskeeps: most of the users are trolls -- without knowing it, and without wanting it, but they are essentially trolls. You need to filter the content that reaches the devs, because they can't handle and can't cope with the volume and kind of feedback that is provided by masses of general population users Feb 16 07:21:19 crashanddie: right, a tiny bit of seperation is needed but there's no golden solution to this Feb 16 07:21:26 developers should not be isolated and users shouldn't either Feb 16 07:21:30 if most of your customers are trolls, maybe you should just give up and start selling bridges Feb 16 07:21:53 we're really going to have difficulties distinguishing between qt trolls and comment trolls here Feb 16 07:22:00 don't make them isolated, just make a clear distinction between where you ask for support and where you talk about development Feb 16 07:22:08 ali1234++ (also: mmm goats) Feb 16 07:22:21 'lo FatalSaint :) Feb 16 07:22:26 Sup skeeps Feb 16 07:22:30 having to post with your real name on mailing list helps quite a bit Feb 16 07:22:51 as opposed to "n900sodomy666" nick on tmo Feb 16 07:22:57 villemv: not hard to make up a name. Feb 16 07:23:13 Stskeeps: you need to setup bug reporters inside your software, that will provide the devs with *useful* information. As I explained in that post I linked to, there is a *massive* difference between 200 bug reports saying "$app crashes randomly", and 1 bug report, 5 comments and 195 votes, reading "$app crashes when you open/close settings window 3 times in a row" Feb 16 07:23:15 So.. background checks required for Mailing lists now? Feb 16 07:23:19 yeah, but people usually don't bother with fake email accounts just for meego Feb 16 07:23:32 it's just not part of the ml culture Feb 16 07:23:37 are you going to block mailinator? :-p Feb 16 07:23:55 will meego have a brainstorm type thing similar to Ubuntus? Feb 16 07:24:03 Stskeeps: you need to have educated (read technical) beta testers, proper QA, validation and regression testing suites done with each release -- this is not so simple because there is so much different kinds of software Feb 16 07:24:06 Stskeeps: its best leave t.m.o as it instead of splitting it, it will end up in nothing but horror when theres 33k members Feb 16 07:24:12 crashanddie: there I agree entirely. Having usefull bug reports is crucial. Feb 16 07:24:33 villemv, it isn't, because the forum acts as an outlet for trolls :) Feb 16 07:24:53 johnx: good point Feb 16 07:24:54 one last question I can help answering? there is some stuff waiting for me Feb 16 07:25:11 qgil_: when will we see the list of packages in meego? Feb 16 07:25:12 Stskeeps: the main thing is that sadly most coders in OSS don't have the same quality standards as most commercial developers. For a commercial dev, what matters is that the customer is happy and buys another app from your list. So using dirty code and a shitty framework/architecture, or a horrible way of handling/storing/securing the user data isn't so important, as long as it works, looks pretty and doesn't crash all too ofte Feb 16 07:25:13 wow @ meego. Nokia needs a change in management. Feb 16 07:25:24 EricInBNE: isn't that what meego is? Feb 16 07:25:41 EricInBNE: isn't it great how meego is not controlled by nokia? ;) Feb 16 07:25:50 itdock, hmmm :) Feb 16 07:25:51 qgil_, there's rumblings of continuing to use the maemo.org trademark and domain. Feb 16 07:26:02 qgil_, so Nokia's ownership there may need to be clarified moving forward. Feb 16 07:26:05 itdock, who is the leader of the project? Feb 16 07:26:18 crashanddie, which is why exchange is so much more reliable and easy to maintain than postfix :) Feb 16 07:26:26 perhaps we could call Meego "Mobile UX" Maemo :-) Feb 16 07:26:34 EricInBNE: there's a "Governance" page on the site Feb 16 07:26:41 Linux foundation, not Nokia per se. Feb 16 07:26:50 villemv: please ak this question in meego-dev since I don't know exactly Feb 16 07:26:50 johnx: there are exceptions to the rule -- I'm more talking about small apps as the ones we see on maemo/iphone Feb 16 07:27:07 alright qgil_ Feb 16 07:27:14 re all Feb 16 07:27:15 qgil_: weren't there supposed to be different support libraries for qt on maemo and symbian, to make qt apps look and act native? Feb 16 07:27:22 http://meego.com/about/faq talks about a first full release in 2Q but perhaps the list of packages or a more detailed architecture documentation can be published before Feb 16 07:27:27 crashanddie, I'd argue more that different platforms have a different atmosphere, a "culture" if you will and developers rise (or fall) to the standards of their peers Feb 16 07:27:36 in fact there is a lot of stuff coming that didn't make it to the website just because lack of time / hands Feb 16 07:27:37 qgil_: that would hit the compatibility quite badly Feb 16 07:27:41 qgil_: maemo 5 1.1 push soon? :) Feb 16 07:27:48 yeah it says their are two benevolent dictators. one from intel and one from nokia. lol @ that Feb 16 07:27:53 s/their/there Feb 16 07:27:55 johnx: then I'd say the standard on Maemo is crap Feb 16 07:28:29 crashanddie, and I'd say the standard on win32 is pretty terrifying for the most part on average. how can we raise the bar for maemo/meego? Feb 16 07:28:40 EricInBNE: fwiw, that's the last chain and if you need a production suitable product, there needs to be someone sane at the top Feb 16 07:28:44 GeneralAntilles: Nokia and Intel will ramp down the Moblin and maemo brands to concentrate all the attention in MeeGo. I understand people personal attachments with either name (you tell me) but I wonder where that really leads Feb 16 07:29:07 (sorry for keeping typing "maemo" and not "Maemo", I still don't know what happens when I type fast) Feb 16 07:29:07 johnx: by making QA/regression testing a focus point. Instead of having automatically upgraded apps, we need an "official" review Feb 16 07:29:24 qgil_, I don't know either. Less a question and more a heads up. ;) Feb 16 07:29:25 qgil_: it's your left pinky Feb 16 07:29:35 crashanddie, alright. isn't that just a modification of the extras process? Feb 16 07:29:37 I thought we created a Testing Squad for that? (@johnx and crashanddie) Feb 16 07:30:06 FatalSaint: I'm a troll, I pick up on things and never follow up Feb 16 07:30:11 FatalSaint: so yeah, could be Feb 16 07:31:05 crashanddie: Well, I'm no expert in it. But my understanding is there is now a Testing Squad that follows the QA standards that maemo *does* have (although, could probably be improved) and can promote or demote the packages as necessary. Feb 16 07:31:20 Stskeeps: the "benevolent dictator" scheme works well, it remains to see how well it works when there are two of them Feb 16 07:31:27 ali1234: worked for rome.. Feb 16 07:31:28 :P Feb 16 07:31:32 crashanddie, actually, I think it runs deeper: right now the n900 is still pretty geek oriented. we're already far ahead where we were with Maemo 4, but maemo devs still need to be something of "generalists" to get an app pushed to extras Feb 16 07:31:33 lol Feb 16 07:31:56 johnx: oh yes, definitely Feb 16 07:32:12 The N900 is specifically designed to be quirky :) So... yes, it's a geek oriented design ;) Feb 16 07:32:38 I think a build system that lets more non-geek devs get into the game will help a ton Feb 16 07:32:38 alright, good morning/night everybody - let's continue the discussion and please consider my advice: choose your mission and don't get stuck in unproductive discussions Feb 16 07:32:39 leinir: you mean the stand don't you? Feb 16 07:32:42 johnx: same reason why some apps on OSX have a cult following, and their FOSS equivalent isn't used at all: a nice GUI, polished menus, thought-through workflows... Not "It'll do" Feb 16 07:32:44 i dont mean troll but i had feeling that the vibe was we'll be happy to split t.m.o but was waiting for some1 to say it, there was a discussion about spitting maemo few week ago and no conclusion was reached then it will be even harder now and i think idea is bad Feb 16 07:32:45 hey johnx Feb 16 07:32:51 qgil_: have a good day Feb 16 07:32:53 hey lbt Feb 16 07:32:58 qgil_: thanks much for the valuable information Feb 16 07:33:15 damn Feb 16 07:33:23 crashanddie, ah, now here's a fun one: what about all the OSS mac os x apps? ;) Feb 16 07:33:29 lmao Feb 16 07:33:30 there are some real gems Feb 16 07:33:34 lbt: ;) It's something i read in an article when it was originally released, one of the main people behind it (can't remember who, unfortuantely, or where) - that they designed specifically to be a little quirky, to appeal to geeks :) Feb 16 07:33:42 johnx: oh, I'm not saying there aren't quality ones Feb 16 07:34:03 * GeneralAntilles should probably go to bed. Feb 16 07:34:05 crashanddie, and what I'm saying is that on mac os x (in that dev culture) even OSS apps will sometimes hold to a higher standard Feb 16 07:34:11 me too Feb 16 07:34:13 GeneralAntilles: answer this to me first Feb 16 07:34:22 johnx: indeed Feb 16 07:34:35 GeneralAntilles: what's the karma level required for council run this time round? Feb 16 07:35:13 crashanddie, 100, I believe? Feb 16 07:35:46 http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#How_can_I_stand_for_the_council.3F Feb 16 07:36:05 and we're starting to see it (finally!) on the linux desktop. stuff is getting to the point where it "just works" and it really looks like devs are following a higher standard (or maybe it's just the situation, like the iphone, that given enough quantity, some has to be good) Feb 16 07:36:22 crashanddie: 10 Feb 16 07:36:32 DocScrutinizer: no, that's to vote Feb 16 07:36:36 GeneralAntilles, MAybe not important but Moblin just changed its official twiter to meego_netbook and its facebook page to Meego Feb 16 07:36:39 aerr soory, that's for voting Feb 16 07:37:02 GeneralAntilles: good night Feb 16 07:37:16 yeah, g'night GeneralAntilles. :) Feb 16 07:37:20 crashanddie, if you run I'm nominating you for official council trollmaster. :P Feb 16 07:37:22 Night all. Feb 16 07:37:25 Night general Feb 16 07:37:26 meego will fail. the entire website is vapour. they dont know what they are doing and are off-message Feb 16 07:37:32 night ga, all Feb 16 07:37:48 I nominate EricInBNE for council to save meego! Feb 16 07:37:57 EricInBNE: isn't it great that a huge bunch of decisions haven't been made in advance so we can make them? Feb 16 07:37:58 johnx: +1 Feb 16 07:38:12 seriously though: "off-message"? what are you, marketing? Feb 16 07:38:17 :) Feb 16 07:38:22 no surprise intel are running everything so far lol Feb 16 07:38:25 right, almost 24 hours after channel creation - i'll be deopping people (they can still /chanserv op #meego) and myself, as to fit freenode style Feb 16 07:38:51 johnx, off-message means whatever it is they are selling is - incoherent. Feb 16 07:39:01 when will actual code be available? have intel and nokia guys started actually developing with eachother yet? Feb 16 07:39:06 Freenode doesn't like ops? Feb 16 07:39:09 Blice: in few weeks they claim Feb 16 07:39:12 EricInBNE, right. and that's marketing BS :) Feb 16 07:39:23 FatalSaint: it's frowned upon in some instances, but it is entirely possible to op up Feb 16 07:39:26 FatalSaint: no need for ops as long as you have services around Feb 16 07:39:42 Stskeeps, I dont think so. I dislike intensely design-by-committee Feb 16 07:39:44 I see Feb 16 07:39:46 I bet you would have shown up on the minix mailing list in '91 and told Torvalds he was "off-message" and Linux would never get anywhere Feb 16 07:40:03 EricInBNE: it's a new house to be painted, in my view. Feb 16 07:40:18 EricInBNE: you have to bootstrap somewhere or be stuck in bikeshed discussions forever. Feb 16 07:40:21 so let's all argue about the color! quick! Feb 16 07:40:26 :D Feb 16 07:40:32 Green! Feb 16 07:40:39 it can be any color as long as it's black Feb 16 07:40:44 mauve! Feb 16 07:40:56 anything but brown Feb 16 07:40:57 i vote pink! Feb 16 07:41:16 there are load of very technical reasons to go with violet Feb 16 07:41:27 let's have a pink OS! It's trendy and fancy, and even Paris Hilton would use it! Feb 16 07:41:30 violet considered harmful Feb 16 07:41:36 ultimately destructive Feb 16 07:41:40 ppl on t.m.o are saying theres m5 update been released Feb 16 07:41:55 johnx, your welcome to it. I'll keep writing android software in the meantime, while all the decisions I care about are made. Feb 16 07:41:56 whyhi: which one? PR1.1? Feb 16 07:42:12 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=528806#post528806 only read first page heres thread Feb 16 07:42:18 3.2010.02-8.002 Feb 16 07:42:21 based on screenshot Feb 16 07:42:37 funny though, updater doesn't seem to find anything :p Feb 16 07:42:39 android, the world of on-message management Feb 16 07:42:42 they saying its in HAM Feb 16 07:42:48 right, mine is also saying there's a new update Feb 16 07:42:50 EricInBNE, welcome to what? sorry, I forgot what I was arguing for... Feb 16 07:42:52 it's PR1.1.1 Feb 16 07:42:58 I forgot we had created that Feb 16 07:43:09 It's probably being rolled like last time Feb 16 07:43:09 what's PR1.1.1 for? :P Feb 16 07:43:15 I don't remember Feb 16 07:43:20 some bugfixes that had to be released Feb 16 07:43:22 hi all Feb 16 07:43:24 but didn't have to wait for PR1.2 Feb 16 07:43:35 iirc fixing regressions in 1.1 Feb 16 07:43:35 released? Feb 16 07:43:41 please say flash 10 lol Feb 16 07:43:47 P for Product, not preview Feb 16 07:43:55 !help Feb 16 07:44:04 allu user_ Feb 16 07:44:04 flash 10 pipe dreams? Feb 16 07:44:08 there is no help :) Feb 16 07:44:10 user_: yeah, that's not going to work here, we don't do DCC Feb 16 07:44:24 how change nick?) Feb 16 07:44:35 user_: /nick foobar Feb 16 07:44:38 /nick Feb 16 07:44:48 thx Feb 16 07:45:17 do any of you guys see the update really Feb 16 07:45:27 whyhi: yes, I see it in my N900 Feb 16 07:45:36 I see it Feb 16 07:45:42 i dont Feb 16 07:45:48 i have generic image flashed and see nothing Feb 16 07:45:57 I think it's time zone dependent Feb 16 07:46:11 Stskeeps: http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/maemo5.0_update3_vs_maemo5.0_update4_content_changes.html Feb 16 07:46:21 Stskeeps: Very small update. Feb 16 07:46:38 it update of what date? Feb 16 07:46:45 january? Feb 16 07:46:48 Stskeeps: But sdk-fiasco-gen would be of interest ;) Feb 16 07:47:07 X-Fade: ah, cool Feb 16 07:47:18 finally Feb 16 07:47:34 ah! is that the open fiasco image generator? Feb 16 07:47:44 mce-doc WOOOOOHAAA Feb 16 07:48:01 johnx: Well, not open ;) non-free Feb 16 07:48:05 * itdock backs up his n900 Feb 16 07:48:05 hmmm what's the apt command for cleaning things up? Feb 16 07:48:17 dmj7261: apt-get clean Feb 16 07:48:33 of couse :-[ Feb 16 07:48:33 >_< Feb 16 07:48:54 can some1 confirm it dont mess up extra codecs like last updates did Feb 16 07:49:08 whyhi, how would I test that? Feb 16 07:49:09 whyhi: Nothing gstreamer related in this release. Feb 16 07:49:20 whyhi: Check the last part of that page. (nokia binaries) Feb 16 07:49:21 excellent: conflicting packages in HAM Feb 16 07:49:27 nice no need to remove them then Feb 16 07:50:06 random topic, I am making a moblin live-usb... this should be interesting to see on my Netbook. Feb 16 07:51:45 * Suurorca wonders how things will go with 3d televisions Feb 16 07:52:28 FatalSaint: try to make it not require SSE3 Feb 16 07:52:35 Suurorca: they'll use holograms Feb 16 07:52:51 * itdock yawns Feb 16 07:53:02 * itdock quaffs more scotch Feb 16 07:53:51 villemv: Do I need to pass a param to boot to do that? Feb 16 07:54:09 I don't think so, just compile differently Feb 16 07:54:20 nwm if you are using ready-made binaries Feb 16 07:54:25 nvm Feb 16 07:54:38 ohhhhh yeah.. in the kernel. No I'm using the live-img download Feb 16 07:54:42 just to give it a test run Feb 16 07:54:46 never seen Moblin before Feb 16 07:54:56 figured it'd be wise to see what is consuming Maemo Feb 16 07:55:02 :-) Feb 16 07:55:24 I wonder whether moblin is surrently seeing record download counts... Feb 16 07:55:30 rofl Feb 16 07:55:30 suddenly Feb 16 07:55:43 Overnight the Moblin project actually got popular ;) Feb 16 07:56:00 lol Feb 16 07:56:04 lol Feb 16 07:56:36 yeah, all those people who want to try running it on their n900, just that they can say afterwards how moblin sucks and maemo was better off without it ;P Feb 16 07:56:56 and it's all the fault of binary package format Feb 16 07:57:21 have to download vm image myselg Feb 16 07:57:23 Does Moblin even have an ARM port? Feb 16 07:57:33 package formats are just as interesting as compiling your own kernels Feb 16 07:57:39 lmao Feb 16 07:58:00 i love compiling my own kernels Feb 16 07:58:01 :) Feb 16 07:58:04 for some those are of great interest and enthusiasm Feb 16 07:58:28 most people dont really care as long as stuff works Feb 16 07:58:32 tigert, unfortunately the same people seem to be keen posters... Feb 16 07:58:32 they are a great hoot among youngsters anyway Feb 16 07:58:36 jku_: yeah Feb 16 07:59:05 time to dig up http://funroll-loops.info/ I guess Feb 16 07:59:16 I think it is good to do that stuff to learn Feb 16 07:59:26 I used to build my own kernels and dig around the system Feb 16 07:59:32 makes me comfortable with how stuff works Feb 16 07:59:42 but I dont find it that relevant anymore Feb 16 07:59:46 That's why I undertook LFS once upon a time Feb 16 07:59:46 yet I can do it if I need to Feb 16 07:59:50 great learning experience Feb 16 07:59:53 yeah Feb 16 07:59:56 exactly Feb 16 08:00:03 if you want some fun, try installing gentoo! Feb 16 08:00:10 on an N90 Feb 16 08:00:11 someone said redhat has that as a first assignment for all distro-related engineers Feb 16 08:00:11 0 Feb 16 08:00:13 i think the problem is not about the packaging system, but more about the philosophical change from debian based system to some other system Feb 16 08:00:16 or had Feb 16 08:00:16 After about a month I realize maintaining updates and packages for everything I had on my system was just *not* worth it :D Feb 16 08:00:25 Already done that too @ itdock Feb 16 08:00:44 heheh Feb 16 08:00:46 or compile your own system from scratch without any kind of packaging whatsoever ;p Feb 16 08:00:52 thats a bit harsh :) Feb 16 08:01:06 i have my reservations about going RPM. RPM-based systems all just seem totally different from eachother.. and from nearly every other GNU/Linux out there. Feb 16 08:01:13 have nothing against RPM itself Feb 16 08:01:13 just because we use deb at nokia doesnt mean our release practices dont need improvements Feb 16 08:01:34 FatalSaint: the package format is not really relevant Feb 16 08:01:36 just that the systems that run it don't appear to have any continuity. Feb 16 08:01:39 what matters is how the system is built Feb 16 08:01:46 and how stuff is released and put together Feb 16 08:01:51 sure the tools and stuff matter Feb 16 08:01:53 You are correct.. and why I'm interested to see how it's put together Feb 16 08:01:53 i'm not sure meego + rpm < maemo + deb Feb 16 08:01:59 time will tell Feb 16 08:02:09 FatalSaint: going from maemo's chaos to a reengineered rpm approach, might be a good thing Feb 16 08:02:18 and as was said, M6 base system will still be deb Feb 16 08:02:21 i agree.. Feb 16 08:02:21 Stskeeps: my point exactly ;) Feb 16 08:02:27 It will be a rebase anyway. Feb 16 08:02:30 and use rpm for third party development Feb 16 08:02:32 In my ideal world, maemo (meego now) would become really compatible with straight debian Feb 16 08:02:34 Stskeeps: Sure.. or it could be a tragedy. Feb 16 08:02:47 to end user it doesnt really matter if the file ends with .rpm or .deb Feb 16 08:02:50 they wont see it anyway Feb 16 08:02:52 FatalSaint: at least we can try to stop some insanities earlier Feb 16 08:02:53 :P Feb 16 08:02:56 ;) Feb 16 08:03:09 what is more important is to have a sane foundation for the distro Feb 16 08:03:11 so the base system will still be apt? Feb 16 08:03:15 So we plan to use yum, apt, urpmi, up2date, yast... Feb 16 08:03:15 oh god, I don't want the stable tree be 3-4 years out of date ;P Feb 16 08:03:20 ? Feb 16 08:03:21 you can still use apt with rpm Feb 16 08:03:27 dmj7261: someone claim zypper, but i'm not sure Feb 16 08:03:31 tigert: you are saying that deb cannot be sane :) Feb 16 08:03:33 dmj7261: in the sense that it will be used for platform integration Feb 16 08:03:41 fwiw, people use application manager and usually don't care about debs Feb 16 08:03:42 petteri: I am saying anything can be sane or insane Feb 16 08:03:42 :P Feb 16 08:03:48 Stskeeps: well, for building X-Fade said that they were using some special tool yesterday Feb 16 08:03:50 so is it debian or fedora based? Feb 16 08:03:59 th0br0: yes, OBS, like Mer Feb 16 08:04:01 or some weird crossbreed Feb 16 08:04:06 dmj7261: own platform Feb 16 08:04:08 tigert: true, but in my experience rpm-based systems currently out there are not sane :) Feb 16 08:04:09 ah ok. Feb 16 08:04:21 FatalSaint: fedora *is* sane. Feb 16 08:04:27 hahah :D Feb 16 08:04:33 btw, why did the linux foundation pick rpm as the standard to be promoted in the first place? Feb 16 08:04:34 stskeeps, is mer sticking with apt? Feb 16 08:04:38 two of my good friends work on opensuse Feb 16 08:04:44 Well - I'm not a huge fan of Fedora. Although the lastest few have gotten better.. @th0gr0 Feb 16 08:04:45 they do rpm too I think Feb 16 08:04:48 s/gr0/br0 Feb 16 08:04:49 it is not too bad either Feb 16 08:04:50 but then again, that's completely subjective to one's personal opinion. regardless of that, the only ppl ranting about the rpm choice have been the maemo guys... we havne't really had any input from the moblin ppl, didn't we? Feb 16 08:04:54 iryge: yes, but mer is changing horses on goals. Feb 16 08:05:08 but this is a minefield of "ooh they do XYZ so it is insane" -opinions Feb 16 08:05:13 th0br0: I doubt they're complaining, so they're quiet. Feb 16 08:05:20 th0br0, we had that fight earlier already :) Feb 16 08:05:24 iryge: and encouraging people to contribute to meego Feb 16 08:05:27 ah ok jku_... too bad i missed it Feb 16 08:05:58 the moblin people don't have anything to complain, and if the packaking does not matter to them, they should just move to deb : Feb 16 08:06:00 stskeeps, what are mer's new goals? Feb 16 08:06:21 I can't see anything moblin is really changing except name Feb 16 08:06:34 and getting arm support Feb 16 08:06:36 mer could restart by making MeeGo for n900 & N810 :-) Feb 16 08:06:47 iryge: i'll be bringing fremantle to n8x0 mostly and assiting with getting community capable of maintaining fremantle. other things will be MeeGo ports. Feb 16 08:07:00 I'm still trying to figure out why they *wouldn't* officially bring Meego to the N900 Feb 16 08:07:04 that doesn't make much sense to me Feb 16 08:07:05 petteri, don't you think you might be looking at it with a bias... Feb 16 08:07:11 of course mer would need two branches to do that cause n900 users love the eye candy Feb 16 08:07:11 fatalsaint, me too Feb 16 08:07:22 jku_: and they dont? Feb 16 08:07:42 FatalSaint: it's work. If you offered to do it for 5000eur, you'd probably get the contract ;-) Feb 16 08:07:48 petteri, oh we definitely do. I'm just saying everyone will have to compromise... Feb 16 08:07:51 I really really want Nokia to put maemo6/meego1 on the n900 Feb 16 08:08:00 why do people insist nokia has to do it, though? Feb 16 08:08:00 :P Feb 16 08:08:03 There has been no announcement of them not doing so, has there? Feb 16 08:08:13 Stskeeps: it's the usual "someone has to do it" Feb 16 08:08:14 It would make me more satisfied as a user and more likely to recommend/purchase in the future. Feb 16 08:08:17 villemv - well.. M6 is supposed to either BE MeeGo, or fully MeeGo compatible.. and it's already been said to run Omap3.. Feb 16 08:08:22 so How much work would really have to go into it? Feb 16 08:08:31 stskeeps, because dropping software support for a device that's 6 months old would be a new low for nokia Feb 16 08:08:32 Looking back at how the release of the N900 kinda kickstarted the apps development for Maemo 5, it would be really nice to have a real device for MeeGo asap. Feb 16 08:08:32 Other than the capacitive vs resistive thing Feb 16 08:08:53 FatalSaint: everything always involves work Feb 16 08:08:59 FatalSaint: please don't start the c vs r flamewar too :) Feb 16 08:09:00 if if's cheap and easy, let's just do it Feb 16 08:09:23 the c vs r flamewar should be diminished by the Maemo6 UI framework being published Feb 16 08:09:32 Stskeeps: I certainly don't belittle what you do.. but honestly: What full blown, operational OS has been brought "by the community" for the mainstream to the N770/8x0 devices? Feb 16 08:09:44 FatalSaint: debian? ;p Feb 16 08:09:48 yeah. although i'm kinda gessing that those two frameworks they're talking about are just maemo and moblin continuing as separate entities Feb 16 08:09:52 ubuntu? Feb 16 08:10:02 Easy-debian... full fledged debian - I ran it.. wasn't 100% great. Too slow and sluggish. Feb 16 08:10:06 FatalSaint: but yes, you're right Feb 16 08:10:18 I just saw easy-debian in extras today Feb 16 08:10:34 My personal Hopes are that they open the OS to the point that someone like you Stskeeps - can actually get stuff done Feb 16 08:10:39 My suitemate can't figure out why I'd want it. Feb 16 08:10:43 currently I think that's your biggest hurdle, right?? The closed-side? Feb 16 08:10:59 FatalSaint: closed isn't a hurdle now, i sit on the fence between ext and int Feb 16 08:11:04 now if only nokia would open a few of their GUIs. Feb 16 08:11:06 FatalSaint: it's a matter of asking the right people. Feb 16 08:11:11 FatalSaint, I think the other big part is actual community involvement Feb 16 08:11:19 ...I'd totally fix me some bugs/missing features. Feb 16 08:11:21 fatalsaint, hardware drivers are still going to be an issue even if meego is fully open Feb 16 08:11:23 I would think always internal by default.. since it's guaranteed to be there. Ext may not always be there Feb 16 08:11:55 johnx: How so? I see quite a few people on the forums that are awaiting Mer Feb 16 08:11:57 don't anyone take this the wrong way (it's actually a good thing after all), but maemo.org probably has the highest amount of non-technical linux users Feb 16 08:12:04 rofl Feb 16 08:12:06 iryge: n900 has the blessing that it has no closed source kernel drivers.. the other side is the libs and firmware (3rd party) and other side again is nokia binaries (BME, etc) - nokia binaries we can handle Feb 16 08:12:12 Agreed @johnx Feb 16 08:12:14 FatalSaint, awaiting: yes. hacking on: not nearly as many. Feb 16 08:13:08 stskeeps, do you think mer will be able to make calls on the n900 eventually? Feb 16 08:13:12 FatalSaint: if we had not insisted on fully open source base system, we would have been better off. Feb 16 08:13:20 iryge: it can dial people, audio not so much. Feb 16 08:13:28 Stskeeps: ??? How? Feb 16 08:13:37 FatalSaint: we could have asked to recompile many pieces of fremantle. Feb 16 08:13:47 instead of making our own solutions Feb 16 08:14:01 well, we would have been better off in the specific case of the N8x0 Feb 16 08:14:01 Stskeeps: If it was not open, we would not be able to recompile it since we wouldn't have the source Feb 16 08:14:03 I'm confused Feb 16 08:14:13 FatalSaint: right, and that's where it's easier now. Feb 16 08:14:16 not so sure about being better off on say, the smartq Feb 16 08:14:25 johnx: on non-nokia devices, no, not better off Feb 16 08:14:38 which was always my angle anyways ;) Feb 16 08:15:22 yeah.. Feb 16 08:15:27 it is coming with meego now instead Feb 16 08:15:28 Well.. what did Android do right? There are dozens of different ROM's available for the various Android phones Feb 16 08:15:40 The "community" there was able to grab the OS and go.. why couldn't we? Feb 16 08:15:42 FatalSaint: they pretty much ignore the copyright law most of them Feb 16 08:15:42 :P Feb 16 08:15:53 Well.. take the "new" cyanogen Feb 16 08:15:54 also: tons of scary hacks Feb 16 08:15:55 it's legal Feb 16 08:16:09 FatalSaint: the need for recompile is armv7 vs armv6+vfp Feb 16 08:16:14 mer was an attempt at a real maintainable architecture, not a one-off "ROM" Feb 16 08:16:14 The only real copyright breach was some of them bundle Google's Apps... not any part of the Android Feb 16 08:16:22 and what johnx said Feb 16 08:16:25 Well that part is understood @ skeeps Feb 16 08:16:39 FatalSaint: i'm willing to bet that they have closed source stuff in there still, wifi firmware, etc Feb 16 08:16:41 but they're making tweaks to put android in varied forms on devices that already run very similar androids. Feb 16 08:17:18 but yeah, mer was supposed to be what meego became Feb 16 08:17:25 Well Feb 16 08:17:26 you can't say that Feb 16 08:17:31 Meego currently doesn't exist :) Feb 16 08:17:32 a ton of the mer work was porting hildon/maemo to debuntu and putting together a build system Feb 16 08:17:38 At least Mer has a release version :D Feb 16 08:17:58 FatalSaint: but at least our OBS experiments seem to have influenced things :) Feb 16 08:18:06 the android ROMS are basically one-off "tarballs" of some dude's working system Feb 16 08:18:41 (much like the WinMo ROMS, AFAIK) Feb 16 08:18:55 That's basically what any packaging system is though John... just a tar of already compiled binaries Feb 16 08:19:10 FatalSaint: and many of the same things that was pointed out as benefits to maemo back in the maemo reconstructed proposal seems to be repeated in mission for meego, so that's good Feb 16 08:19:14 Stskeeps: So, is the hope that meego will be able to be ported back to the 8x0? Feb 16 08:19:17 really? the idea of mer was to be able to build from source into an image Feb 16 08:19:27 FatalSaint: i'm not sure it's impossible, but i won't bet money from it. Feb 16 08:19:30 on Feb 16 08:19:37 Johnx: So mer is actually gentoo on the move? Feb 16 08:19:47 even debian builds from source Feb 16 08:19:57 so do RH and opensuse Feb 16 08:19:57 When I install a deb it's not building from source Feb 16 08:20:09 it's a pre-compiled binary placed in a package that just gets extracted to my system Feb 16 08:20:10 yeah, but it *can* be built from source Feb 16 08:20:18 FatalSaint: but it was a mistake to try and tackle this project instead of making 'just a backport' but at that point, we did not know Meego would exist. Feb 16 08:20:24 and it can be *recursively* built form source Feb 16 08:20:28 we did discover many interesting things in the Mer process though. Feb 16 08:20:45 mer can still perhaps be useful Feb 16 08:20:46 so somewhere i hope someone glanced at our ideas Feb 16 08:20:59 Does MeeGo make Mer dead? Feb 16 08:21:09 FatalSaint: no, just changing roles at the moment Feb 16 08:21:19 where do you see it going? Feb 16 08:21:21 it changes mer's goals, for sure Feb 16 08:21:22 which allows us to deliver better Feb 16 08:21:28 like what? Feb 16 08:21:32 maybe even focuses mer's goals Feb 16 08:21:36 dmj7261: right now, i will be working harder on mer for n8x0 specifically. Feb 16 08:22:10 And I was always under the impression mer was supposed to be for the N8x0.. I was surprised to see when you switched focus to the N900 Feb 16 08:22:28 FatalSaint: and that's where people were wrong.. we set it up in same way meego is, seperate platform from hardware Feb 16 08:22:28 I'd say, work to get mer running on n8x0 and then take a look back to us n9x0 users to see about going forward with it. Feb 16 08:22:29 The N900 didn't need Mer as badly as M4 did, IMHO. Feb 16 08:22:53 It might just be a really nice thing, especially if you have good debian package support Feb 16 08:22:54 mer was maemo on debubuntu, the side effect was that it would run on n800 Feb 16 08:23:06 FatalSaint: agreed, but when 300 people out of our contributor pool got n900's, things turned odd :) Feb 16 08:23:22 They didn't sell their N8x0 to get the N900 did they? ;) Feb 16 08:23:30 FatalSaint: most stopped using them. Feb 16 08:23:45 I can see that happening. Feb 16 08:23:53 and the 3D driver on again / off again situation didn't help with planning ;) Feb 16 08:23:59 yeah Feb 16 08:24:07 3d driver wasn't as good as i hoped Feb 16 08:24:44 but anyway, there was stupid choices made, there were good choices made, but let's look ahead now. Feb 16 08:24:54 that's probably bad Feb 16 08:25:03 Well I still have my N810 Feb 16 08:25:03 tybollt, looking ahead? Feb 16 08:25:06 hit me up if you need something Feb 16 08:25:13 the epic shitshow that is Intel and the Atom Z / 3d driver is painfull to say the least Feb 16 08:25:31 I wish I could afford the shiney new N900 tho Feb 16 08:25:33 looks awesme Feb 16 08:25:42 even if it is already obsolete lol Feb 16 08:25:52 FatalSaint: what i will be doing over the next month is mer^2, which is architectually very much closer to Maemo5. it's a matter of recompiling packages, even if it's debian5.0 based. Feb 16 08:25:54 tybollt, heh. it's even the same tech as the omap3 3D core. small world, eh? Feb 16 08:26:08 Stskeeps: Sounds awesome Feb 16 08:26:32 and as soon as I get a pandora in-hand (I know, I know) I'll take a dig at getting something meego-like on it Feb 16 08:27:01 wasn't Pandora supposed to ship like a year and a half ago? Feb 16 08:27:06 hi Feb 16 08:27:46 hi everyone Feb 16 08:27:46 FatalSaint: and then ask to recompile most of fremantle for n8x0 somehow. Feb 16 08:27:56 FatalSaint, yeah. wasn't Nokia supposed to stop abandoning old hardware as soon as the new stuff was out? :P Feb 16 08:28:02 HAH! Feb 16 08:28:05 :) Feb 16 08:28:11 johnx: Point taken. Feb 16 08:28:33 Stskeeps: So Mer is moving from the totally-free to the mostly-free model that we have now? Feb 16 08:28:35 I'm not complaining Feb 16 08:28:36 just asking Feb 16 08:28:43 FatalSaint: probably needed Feb 16 08:28:50 honestly, I like both Nokia and Pandora a whole bunch, and I really hope that maemo users and pandora users will both be able to be part of the same community one day Feb 16 08:29:32 I don't know much of anything about Pandora except that the hardware is supposed to be identical (or near) to the N900 Feb 16 08:30:11 yup, and that having the N900 and pandora be as API compatible as possible will get neat apps on the pandora and neat games on the N900 :) Feb 16 08:30:34 I would be worried the games for Pandora would require too many buttons Feb 16 08:30:43 it has dual gamepads doesn't it? Feb 16 08:31:06 yeah, but a lot of games will make sense on both I think Feb 16 08:31:06 http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer2-login.png -> FatalSaint, johnx Feb 16 08:32:16 running in Virtualbox? Feb 16 08:32:43 well, that's a sideeffect, easier to develop with Feb 16 08:32:51 but it will run in similar fashion on n8x0 Feb 16 08:33:00 so I take it you do most development as x86 and then compile for ARM afterward? Feb 16 08:33:10 it's simply easiest Feb 16 08:33:28 makes sense Feb 16 08:33:28 it also means i can test things by taking in i386 repository of maemo SDK Feb 16 08:33:37 before we start the whole recompilation Feb 16 08:34:36 what about the interface? Feb 16 08:34:41 still look M4ish? Feb 16 08:34:59 interface for N8x0 i will have to hack on. Feb 16 08:35:02 johnx: Of course it is, and that is what worries me, w/ meego we're buying further into the shitshow Feb 16 08:35:27 Well.. if there's anything I can do @ skeeps Feb 16 08:35:29 tybollt, great. what direction do you suggest? Feb 16 08:35:34 tybollt: I'm thinking that meego is > M6 anyway. Feb 16 08:35:45 hrw|n900: ho Feb 16 08:36:25 X-Fade: Still wondering if M6 == MeeGo or what Feb 16 08:36:42 FatalSaint: Seems to be too big of a change this late in the game to me. Feb 16 08:36:46 AFAIK, M6 should be API compatible with Meego X.Y Feb 16 08:36:47 FatalSaint: Alignment, yes. Feb 16 08:36:59 so, API compat, but not package compat Feb 16 08:37:00 Right.. so compatible - but not actually it Feb 16 08:37:13 that still gives me hope that an official port of MeeGo will make it to the N900 then Feb 16 08:37:14 CC Feb 16 08:37:27 ? Feb 16 08:38:32 johnx: For one - intel get their act together. Feb 16 08:39:05 johnx: Anybody that knows what Poulsbo is also know what an epic shitshow it was (drivers wise). Feb 16 08:39:06 great. I'm sure that your comment was all they needed to hear Feb 16 08:39:53 when we look back at what made intel "get their act together" I'm sure people will always remember it was because tybollt complained on IRC in a community channel Feb 16 08:39:54 Now now, don't get me wrong. I have faith in this still. There's plenty of space to fill - is all. Feb 16 08:40:23 FatalSaint: As nokia is allowing Mer to use some close components, you can build on that. Feb 16 08:40:47 X-Fade: Not sure what you mean? Feb 16 08:40:53 X-Fade: Then probably ou know what M6 is, I don't ;) Feb 16 08:41:09 if meego actually gets derailed by silly closed source driver screw ups, then that means they've really done it wrong Feb 16 08:41:16 tybollt: Check code in gitorious. That is not rpm based ;) Feb 16 08:41:46 FatalSaint: The closed parts are available, so you can remix your own distro if you want. Feb 16 08:42:05 X-Fade: thing is, apis change Feb 16 08:42:15 * tybollt is wondering if people here understand how astroturfingeqsue they seem right now? :) Feb 16 08:42:22 arachnist: That is where backporting comes in. Feb 16 08:42:23 esque... Feb 16 08:42:28 there should be no problem implementing something meego-compatible with entirely open components. if that's not the case I'll be the first to turn around and drop it :) Feb 16 08:42:45 X-Fade: so you might have a closed source driver available, but it will only be available for, say, kernel 2.6.28 and xorg-1.4 Feb 16 08:42:51 MeeGo itself will be open, but you will _always_ have closed parts on top and under it. Feb 16 08:43:23 tybollt, for sure, there will be huge problems, but I don't think that closed source drivers will be it Feb 16 08:43:26 I'm sure that not the hardware support layer will ever be completely open. Feb 16 08:43:52 Has there been discussion why Meegoo uses RPM instead of DEB? It looks like a step backwards to me. Feb 16 08:44:07 buxy: ever tried creating a deb package? Feb 16 08:44:07 johnx: Mind, I do. Not for a phone/netbook such as N900... but big-time for a netbook such as say an EEE or Vaio-P. Feb 16 08:44:08 buxy: Yes, about 1M times already. Feb 16 08:44:10 buxy: it's been a major source of bike-shedding, yes Feb 16 08:44:16 buxy, there have been arguments, but no, no one really discussed so much as flamed Feb 16 08:44:22 arachnist: yes I'm a Debian developer Feb 16 08:44:33 Mmm, bias ;) Feb 16 08:44:48 Johnx: Hey.. I resemble that. I haven't flamed yet! Even on t.m.o I thought I was relatively civil Feb 16 08:45:11 I was so glad that Maemo was using it, I'm disappointed now. Feb 16 08:45:12 FatalSaint, :) no harm meant. I was enjoying a little hyperbole Feb 16 08:45:13 What worries me most is how would your application install app see if the app you want is 'desktop' of 'phone' ux. Feb 16 08:45:41 johnx: I understand that the basic choices have been made by Nokia/Intel employees Feb 16 08:45:46 I have also decided that since RPM is the future: I really hope python gets over onto MeeGo and use Smart PM :D Feb 16 08:46:00 I wonder if the choice is technical or political (think Intel-Redhat collaboration) Feb 16 08:46:01 buxy, basically, intel liked RPM. Nokia liked Qt. they compromised Feb 16 08:46:44 buxy, on the other hand, if you were interesting in packaging meego for debuntu, I'd be very much on board with that Feb 16 08:46:44 johnx: Well, actually that is the LF preferred one. Feb 16 08:46:50 well, you can use GTK if you don't like Qt, changing the underlying package format is not so easy Feb 16 08:46:50 Anyway... Night All! Can't wait to catch up on the new drama on t.m.o in the morning. Feb 16 08:47:04 'night FatalSaint Feb 16 08:47:09 X-Fade: Think you mean LSB? Feb 16 08:47:33 tybollt, not exactly sure what you mean. are you saying that you bought hardware with closed drivers and it didn't work very well? Feb 16 08:47:35 buxy: i'm neither a debian, nor any rpm-based distro developer. in fact, i use freebsd, gentoo and exherbo on my systems. but as a sysadmin i had to create both deb and rpm packages, and writing spec files for rpm was a lot easier Feb 16 08:47:37 FatalSaint: Who specified LSB? :) Feb 16 08:47:48 X-Fade: What is LF? Feb 16 08:48:01 linux foundation? Feb 16 08:48:05 ah Feb 16 08:48:11 gotcha Feb 16 08:48:24 Ok, evidently I'm more tired than I thought. I'm out :) Feb 16 08:49:07 arachnist: I can understand that, but OTOH the resulting package is not always as well integrated as good .deb. And it's getting simpler nowadays. :) Feb 16 08:49:23 deb or rpm does not matter too much as long as deps are fine and Package manager handles them properly Feb 16 08:49:25 (3 lines debian/rules file) Feb 16 08:49:52 hrw|n900, OE can generate RPMs, can't it? Feb 16 08:49:57 johnx: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzAyOQ Feb 16 08:50:01 ... Feb 16 08:50:06 as long as sdk will be better then scarybox iam fine Feb 16 08:50:14 buxy: what do you mean by "well integrated"? Feb 16 08:50:24 tybollt, right. you bought a laptop with closed / unavailable linux drivers and it didn't work well in linux Feb 16 08:50:40 johnx: yes, it does. we worked on it when Intell aquired OpenedHnd Feb 16 08:50:46 No Feb 16 08:51:01 The LSB wiki seems to argue that RPM is a subset of Debian and that Debian alien supports RPM, so going with RPM is going with the lowest common denominator. Feb 16 08:51:03 Intel said they were opensource... turned out they weren't :) Feb 16 08:51:16 arachnist: everything done that makes the package debian policy conformant Feb 16 08:51:24 but this is not the time and place for _that_ discussion Feb 16 08:51:27 and meh Feb 16 08:51:46 intel released more open source graphics drivers than ati or nvidia and when they failed to release *one* that they couldn't because of some stoopid IP situation, they got torn apart (rightly so) Feb 16 08:52:50 now, I bet dollars to donuts that the guys who decided to license the ImgTech IP are pretty much totally unrelated to the moblin/meego guys Feb 16 08:53:44 i want some donuts Feb 16 08:53:46 hrw|n900, well, looks like all the hard work on OE is really starting to pay off. ;) Feb 16 08:53:50 * itdock starves Feb 16 08:53:51 maclaver: ouch... somewhat sketchy at best Feb 16 08:54:55 heh, he got me on a good rant. didn't even notice he left ;D Feb 16 08:55:09 ;P Feb 16 08:56:18 anyways, probably time for me to sleep as well Feb 16 08:56:21 'night all Feb 16 08:56:28 Morning, all Feb 16 08:57:02 hey Jaffa Feb 16 08:57:39 Suurorca: Yes the LSB wiki is rather thin, but at least it is an argument rather than an opinion - it can be refuted. Feb 16 08:59:00 * thiago gets ready to flash an N900 Feb 16 08:59:19 i have 800 megs of apps to install Feb 16 08:59:21 * itdock yawns Feb 16 08:59:34 wish it'd auto accept licenses and defaults Feb 16 08:59:37 so i can slepe Feb 16 08:59:39 sleep* Feb 16 08:59:51 I'm just up, so I need coffee Feb 16 09:00:03 use apt-get? ;p Feb 16 09:00:19 should have :P Feb 16 09:00:39 Anyone got the power to fix the wiki editing? Feb 16 09:00:46 i'm using app manager's restore apps feature Feb 16 09:00:47 I try to do as much confing as possible through ssh ;p Feb 16 09:00:51 much faster Feb 16 09:01:20 Ah, looks like it was a half-logged in profile Feb 16 09:02:07 Jaffa: Doesn't have SSO. But account is shared. Feb 16 09:02:17 Jaffa: So you have to login separately. Feb 16 09:02:18 slaine_: About one pot of coffee and 5 hours later I don't even remember anymore why I got up at half seven, but I'm sure I had some good reason... If I only could remember Feb 16 09:03:19 I was up at 6, only getting a chance for coffee now :( Feb 16 09:03:29 X-Fade: Yup, gotcha. Was confused cos it said "Log out" at the top, but I wasn't fully logged in. Feb 16 09:03:40 * slaine_ is looking forward to meeting new folks from Maemoland Feb 16 09:04:23 yes... well. hello. and bye. got a lecture to attend Feb 16 09:04:50 which'll mean about ten minutes lag until I'm in the train and can resume ircing Feb 16 09:05:02 *happy whistle* Feb 16 09:05:31 laters Feb 16 09:07:01 have they changed their minds on the rpms yet? :) Feb 16 09:07:32 Hmm... Interesting :) First MeeGo device is apparently going to be an LG... special :) Feb 16 09:07:35 its no longer in the topic... a good sign? Feb 16 09:07:54 Lant: yes, we want people to stop asking Feb 16 09:09:32 tough :) Feb 16 09:10:22 further discussion in ##meego-bikeshed Feb 16 09:12:51 hi Feb 16 09:13:01 morning pinchartl Feb 16 09:13:32 leinir: URL? Feb 16 09:13:42 good morning Feb 16 09:13:50 Stskeeps: http://mobilesider.com/5dj4lf :) Feb 16 09:15:18 leinir: sonehow I miss nokia in this picture.... Feb 16 09:15:32 that's a good thing Feb 16 09:15:51 leinir: transition to MeeGo. I think that phones the one from CES that's running Moblin Feb 16 09:15:56 maemo was too closed in that it was only for nokia devices... that holds it back vs something like android Feb 16 09:16:23 iphone doesn't stand a chance vs its more open competitors for the non-dumb-as-bricks market set Feb 16 09:16:32 itdock: lol Feb 16 09:16:53 itdock: It still needs to be specified what the open part really is. Feb 16 09:17:28 according to the diagram on meego's site, the only closed part will be app integration, and some closed software on top Feb 16 09:17:33 er, hardware integration Feb 16 09:17:34 Moblin wasn't exactly open either Feb 16 09:17:36 as in kernel modules Feb 16 09:17:52 for support of proprietary hardware Feb 16 09:18:07 itdock: But there will probably be some vendor differentiation part too ;) Feb 16 09:18:13 certainly Feb 16 09:18:15 itdock: catering for the 3% geek market is not a viable option for Nokia Feb 16 09:18:17 itdock: Just like Maemo has now. Feb 16 09:18:40 itdock: Which means that plain MeeGo really isn't is what you see in the end product. Feb 16 09:18:49 well, still larger than motorola's market share Feb 16 09:18:55 itdock: Like Android is not what you see on devices sold. Feb 16 09:19:21 itdock: there will probably still be closed-source GPU drivers on some platforms, as well as some closed-source middleware Feb 16 09:19:38 yup Feb 16 09:19:51 And closed source apps too. Feb 16 09:20:01 X-Fade: of course Feb 16 09:20:08 well, nokia will want to keep ovi maps to itself, owning navteq and all...needs to keep some competitive advantage Feb 16 09:20:12 But the base will will be shared at least. Feb 16 09:20:17 I'd sure like to know what the folks over at LG think about all this Feb 16 09:20:44 they probably don't care as long as they get to sell more devices Feb 16 09:20:49 basically, software that make a competitive advantage will be closed source Feb 16 09:21:06 at least until the community replaces them with better alternatives (if that happens) Feb 16 09:21:22 pinchartl: But in a phone, that is a lot of stuff :) Feb 16 09:21:37 pinchartl: Not a lot to play with if you strip that all out at the moment. Feb 16 09:22:00 X-Fade: it depends on your definition of competitive advantage I guess Feb 16 09:22:21 pinchartl: No, it depends on the commercial party's definition ;) Feb 16 09:23:02 Anyway, I hope this changes the thinking from closed by default to 'does this reallly need to be closed'. Feb 16 09:23:11 pinchartl, GSM baseband stuff is pretty competitive advantage and something that currently does not exist as free software even though Harald is working on something. Feb 16 09:23:11 I don't know about Moblin, but Maemo is/was pretty open Feb 16 09:23:32 what i dont get is this x86 vs ARM, meego devs will have to provide 2 packages of their apps, no? Feb 16 09:23:54 av500: Builder will take care of that, I guess? Feb 16 09:23:56 maemo already exists as x86 and arm. Feb 16 09:23:57 thats not a problem, most linux OSes support multiple architectures Feb 16 09:23:59 ab: yes, I forgot to mention the issue of patents too. closing the source is a way to limit patent lawsuits Feb 16 09:24:35 I dont doubt the os supports both archs... Feb 16 09:24:49 av500: It will be harder to make your app work on both phone and other targets due to hardware differences. Feb 16 09:24:53 but in the end, app devs will like to have the best performance on both... Feb 16 09:25:42 write good clean code you should be fine. right? Feb 16 09:25:46 no Feb 16 09:25:51 clean code is not fast code Feb 16 09:26:11 fast code is x86 vs ARM assembly Feb 16 09:26:24 you depend a lot on the quality of the compiler in that case Feb 16 09:26:41 well, they you are in for a bad surprise with gcc :) Feb 16 09:26:48 no doubt :) Feb 16 09:26:49 av500: It really depends on what your app does. Feb 16 09:27:09 and gcc isn't so bad too :) Feb 16 09:27:33 espringe: at least on ARM, generating good NEON code with gcc is a nogo atm Feb 16 09:28:04 but yes, most apps that just update twitflickbook will prolly not need that.... Feb 16 09:28:05 av500: if you want to use inline assembly you'll just have to use #ifdefs Feb 16 09:28:52 gcc doesn't generate good sse* either, so :P Feb 16 09:28:56 * slaine_ wonders if they'll take up the fat binaries idea put forward by icculus. Feb 16 09:29:14 fat binary or fat package, same difference Feb 16 09:29:38 why bother? Feb 16 09:29:56 it just makes the download bigger Feb 16 09:29:59 fat package would probably be better, not much point having other systems arch on your precious flash storage. Feb 16 09:30:29 it'll just be repo's i'd imagine, package-version.arch.rpm Feb 16 09:30:35 yes Feb 16 09:31:37 At the moment I'm more interested it what it means for both projects pending releases Feb 16 09:31:46 delays? Feb 16 09:32:09 i.e. will Moblin 2.2 get pushed back (was due in April) so it can MeeGo 1.0 for NetBooks Feb 16 09:33:27 And will maemo6 get scrapped and ported to MeeGo platform or will it have compatibility API's and maemo6+1 will be MeeGo 1.2 for Handhelds or something Feb 16 09:33:45 slaine_: It won't be scrapped, that is for sure ;) Feb 16 09:33:52 I hope not Feb 16 09:33:58 slaine_: Probably lib versions will be aligned. Feb 16 09:34:11 But then it's not really going to to be a MeeGo platform either Feb 16 09:34:16 slaine_: But it won't be package compatible anyway. Feb 16 09:34:40 I can't imagine it would. like you said, lib alignment for dev Feb 16 09:34:48 slaine_: I guess it will be > Maemo6 to see the real MeeGo implementation. Feb 16 09:34:57 nod Feb 16 09:35:02 that was my thoughts too Feb 16 09:35:13 It is quite an invasive change. Feb 16 09:35:21 I'm also wondering how Intel are going to play this shift to QT Feb 16 09:35:40 what do you mean, slaine_? Feb 16 09:36:08 community wise? Feb 16 09:36:09 They've been heavily funding and promoting the Clutter libs and MX toolkit for Moblin Feb 16 09:36:30 They've packaged it as the Moblin SDK and have been promoting it heavily Feb 16 09:36:37 on Windows and Linux Feb 16 09:36:57 There's even been a competition to get Apps designed for the Moblin SDK and put into the Moblin Garage Feb 16 09:37:27 I can't imagine the Moblin UX will suddenly do from MX to QT Feb 16 09:37:51 me neither Feb 16 09:38:00 slaine_: Real alignment is quite some work, I guess that is a longer term goal anyway. Feb 16 09:38:07 Yeah Feb 16 09:38:28 Currently it looks like both parties have stated their intentions. Now the real work needs to start. Feb 16 09:38:30 But for both communities it's another direction branch Feb 16 09:39:01 Moblin 1.0, Debian/Ubuntu based on GNOME Moblile stack Feb 16 09:39:03 And yes, it is easy for the suits to say. A lot harder for the devs to do ;) Feb 16 09:39:30 Scrap that, Moblin 2.0, new distro bootstrapped from Fedora/OpenSuSe with new toolkits and UX design Feb 16 09:40:02 Moblin 2.2, Scrap that, MeeGo 1.0, Forget about that Moblin SDK we've been promoting, use QT Feb 16 09:40:13 Same goes for the Maemo guys Feb 16 09:40:25 Maemo <5 Hildon + GTK Feb 16 09:40:45 well, at least now everything seems to standarize around QT Feb 16 09:40:45 Maemo >5, forget that, focus on QT Feb 16 09:40:59 slaine_: apparently it's harder than they thought.... Feb 16 09:41:18 Maemo >6, scrap that, MeeGo 1.0, that platform we all spent time getting just right, bin it, use this one Intel made Feb 16 09:41:31 slaine_: At least now we have a common goal ;) Feb 16 09:41:45 Yes, duplication of effort is a down side to OSS Feb 16 09:42:02 slaine_: personally, i think this is a well-needed reset for both communities and platforms. both of them had problems that threatened adoption Feb 16 09:42:11 It will be interesting how actual product releases will base of base MeeGo releases etc. Feb 16 09:42:24 Stskeeps: none of those where technology related though Feb 16 09:42:48 slaine_: you don't want me to start on the insanities of the maemo platform Feb 16 09:42:49 :P Feb 16 09:42:56 lol Feb 16 09:42:57 ok Feb 16 09:43:05 Anyway, I've had my vent Feb 16 09:43:10 Here's to the future Feb 16 09:43:11 venting is fun, now let's work Feb 16 09:43:12 Stskeeps: But there will be those in Moblin too. Feb 16 09:43:12 :) Feb 16 09:43:16 * slaine_ raises a glass Feb 16 09:43:27 X-Fade: hey, at least there's no more SB. Feb 16 09:43:27 :P Feb 16 09:43:28 Stskeeps: And MeeGo will create some too :) Feb 16 09:43:55 X-Fade: the biggest issue I had with Moblin was that it was all managed, designed and implemented behind closed doors Feb 16 09:43:59 Hindsight is ... ;) Feb 16 09:44:10 slaine_: so was maemo, we didn't have project governance by community Feb 16 09:44:20 If that changes for a more community oriented distro, then amen Feb 16 09:44:27 Stskeeps: hmmm Feb 16 09:44:53 slaine_: this is what i hope will change. maybe there's two guys in the top, but help form the rest. Feb 16 09:45:26 I can see OpenMeeGo / MeeGoProject starting up in the not too distant future, lol Feb 16 09:45:37 slaine_: let's make it so there's no reason to. Feb 16 09:45:43 That's hard though Feb 16 09:45:53 but let's see the code first. Feb 16 09:45:58 I really hope technical decissions will be made in public. Feb 16 09:46:20 Oh and roadmapping would be nice too :) Feb 16 09:46:26 slaine_: open bits of MeeGo is supposed to be developed in the open on gitorious Feb 16 09:46:28 X-Fade: that TSG is public meetings is a good start Feb 16 09:46:28 I can't see that happening, given this project is aimed at solved a corporate problem Feb 16 09:46:34 and built on public build farm Feb 16 09:46:43 slaine_: Link? Feb 16 09:47:05 ll Feb 16 09:47:12 oops, wrong window Feb 16 09:47:14 lbt_: Good, 'cause previous work was done behind closed doors and synced to external git repos Feb 16 09:47:23 Stskeeps: ^^ that was meant for you :) Feb 16 09:47:31 slaine_: devs will always sync from home->repo Feb 16 09:47:44 but there should be no internal repo for OSS pkgs Feb 16 09:47:52 that's not what I mean, I mean internal project servers Feb 16 09:48:05 X-Fade: hang on, http://meego.com/about/governance : The Technical Steering Group meets once every two weeks. These meetings are public and open to all. Minutes of the TSG meetings are also public and available on the project website meego.com. Feb 16 09:48:08 That's how Moblin worked anyways Feb 16 09:48:18 'public' Feb 16 09:48:22 on irc? Feb 16 09:48:40 or public in the basement with the leopard ? Feb 16 09:49:10 "open to all if you can find us!" Feb 16 09:49:31 heh Feb 16 09:49:44 lol Feb 16 09:49:48 slaine: what do you mean with the implemented behind closed doors btw? Feb 16 09:49:52 * ShadowJK looks forward to the theora vs h264 flamewar Feb 16 09:50:01 wrt moblin, I mean Feb 16 09:50:03 ShadowJK: oh yes Feb 16 09:50:12 Will MeeGo support Vorbis out of the Box? Feb 16 09:50:32 jku_: Just that, Intel's Moblin team had internal project servers where they worked. They pushed updates out to the external git repo's Feb 16 09:50:35 stskeeps: nah I mean videofeed from the tsg meets ;-) Feb 16 09:50:57 slaine_: first, disclosure, I'm part of that team... Feb 16 09:51:31 I filled many bugs on the moblin bugzilla to be told it was fixed in build XYZ, but build XYZ wasn't public, nor where the packages used to make that build Feb 16 09:51:35 moblin and/or meego? Feb 16 09:51:58 I'm talking about Moblin here Feb 16 09:52:05 ah, meant jku_'s team :) Feb 16 09:52:08 Oh Feb 16 09:52:14 slaine_, the packages maybe aren't built publicly, but the code is... Feb 16 09:52:15 * Stskeeps is still trying to map who's who Feb 16 09:52:17 I'm guessing it's MeeGo now anyways :) Feb 16 09:52:26 jku_: basically: will the meego git repos be dirty and will we see builds on a public OBS Feb 16 09:52:34 Stskeeps: you need a CRM system for irc Feb 16 09:52:59 lbt_: yeah.. that was what Mer/People was for, keeping track of who's who Feb 16 09:53:25 the git repos have been totally open from moblin 2.0... Feb 16 09:54:05 there may be an exception somewhere but that's the rule: I don't pull from a single internal repo when I work Feb 16 09:54:17 the "fixed in build X", where X is two months ago and unavailable is familiar from maemo ;) Feb 16 09:54:48 jku_: well, that's good to hear. Perhaps my experience was tarnished from the pre 2.0 releases Feb 16 09:56:50 Hey! In the FAWQ I have read that MeeGo should use rpm, together with yum or an own program or...? Feb 16 09:57:12 The_User: they haven't stated what fetcher they use yet, i think Feb 16 09:57:58 Okay, I hate it when somebody compares rpm and apt :) Feb 16 09:58:29 The_User: at the moment, any sane person in here hates that particular discussion Feb 16 09:58:30 :P Feb 16 09:58:37 even worse, I hate it when almost _everyone_ compares rpm and apt Feb 16 09:59:45 if people would bother fight over yum vs. apt, it might make some sense :) Feb 16 10:00:02 or dpkg vs. rpm Feb 16 10:00:11 but nobody uses them Feb 16 10:00:23 sanity, unfortunately, has not been very popular since humanity was introduced ;( Feb 16 10:01:45 actually dpkg vs. rpm is the only argument there that would, in fact, have some point in it Feb 16 10:04:38 and few even realise that there are still other, better package management systems then deb and rpm ;) Feb 16 10:06:19 yes, let's go for opkg! Feb 16 10:06:53 Stskeeps: Gentoo and build on device for every update! Feb 16 10:07:00 apk ftw! Feb 16 10:07:43 X-Fade: i have an arm device running a self-hosting gentoo Feb 16 10:07:55 pacman, but it is not really better Feb 16 10:08:07 arachnist: Yes it is possible, but do you really want that for an end-user device. Feb 16 10:08:14 not really Feb 16 10:08:18 me, I'm happy if the thing will have sane error resolving Feb 16 10:08:30 (1.2GHz, 512MB of ram, 512MB of nand flash, 750GB 2.5" hdd inside) Feb 16 10:08:38 who made the first post? Feb 16 10:10:06 i joined the channel as the first, was empty at 11:35 yesterday :P Feb 16 10:10:54 any other kde-devs here? aseigo, me... Feb 16 10:11:21 Hi! Feb 16 10:11:25 I can offer one in the office if needed :) Feb 16 10:11:34 'lo marquinos Feb 16 10:11:35 How can I localice Meego? Feb 16 10:11:44 :) Feb 16 10:11:52 marquinos: there was a blog, hang on Feb 16 10:12:05 http://moblin.org/community/blogs/margie/2010/l10n-and-meego Feb 16 10:12:15 * w00t wanders back in Feb 16 10:12:24 morning, meego Feb 16 10:13:24 Thanks Stskeeps ;) Feb 16 10:15:03 what's the excuse of "build infrastructure" choice of RPM over deb btw? (this is another discussion) Feb 16 10:15:07 just pondering what requires that Feb 16 10:15:35 That depends on what marketing person you ask Feb 16 10:15:43 Stskeeps: You'd need different tools at least. Feb 16 10:15:47 X-Fade: well, yes Feb 16 10:16:33 Oh and it will be interesting how the security framework gets implemented on top of that too :D Feb 16 10:16:58 if it's OBS, it already signs repos Feb 16 10:17:14 Stskeeps: Yeah, package domains will remain probably. Feb 16 10:19:44 av500: what can you offer? Feb 16 10:19:59 a certified kde dev if you need one :) Feb 16 10:20:57 The_User: Pong? ;) Feb 16 10:21:32 leinir: hi :) Feb 16 10:21:39 list too long Feb 16 10:21:49 Indeed :) Feb 16 10:21:55 biggest channel i'm in i think :) Feb 16 10:22:12 ah, no, but close - 393 on #qt :) Feb 16 10:22:22 and grew this in 24 hours Feb 16 10:22:28 Indeed :) Feb 16 10:22:34 it was around 20 people when i joined ;) Feb 16 10:22:53 :)) Feb 16 10:25:38 why did meego start a new Linux distribution instead of joining an existing one like Fedora? Feb 16 10:26:06 dS1uG: same argument as we used in Mer probably, normal distributions are not suited towards power saving and mobile usage Feb 16 10:26:11 dS1uG, NIH :) Feb 16 10:26:17 they are for desktop computers, not embedded systems Feb 16 10:26:45 why did fedora get founded, they should have just joined debian Feb 16 10:27:04 lol Feb 16 10:27:15 I still dont get why ppl use anything other that opensuse..... Feb 16 10:27:19 There's going to be a whole lot holy wars over the next few weeks me thinks Feb 16 10:27:25 so what is the point.... Feb 16 10:27:58 I preferred the moblin approach; develop some cool UI stuff and get it into every distro Feb 16 10:28:22 that wasn't the dS1uG approach Feb 16 10:28:27 gah Feb 16 10:28:33 dS1uG: that wasn't the moblin approach Feb 16 10:28:42 moblin developed a distro first and foremost Feb 16 10:28:49 twice actually Feb 16 10:29:11 then came up with a UI that people liked and other projects decided to host it Feb 16 10:29:20 btw, I would echo the comment at the bottom of http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process Feb 16 10:30:12 dS1uG: that's always the way Feb 16 10:38:59 'lo elmarco :) Feb 16 10:40:30 Stskeeps: hi there Feb 16 10:48:04 hi everyone. just bought an n900, then heard about this. obviously as a consumer i feel a little abandoned; the community that was promised to me when i bought this is now being rounded up to work on a new project... is meego being developed to run on the n900, or am i expected to spend another £500 on nokia's next "flagship" device? Feb 16 10:48:25 areay: as maemo.org distmaster i fail to see any reason why meego -wouldn't- run on n900. Feb 16 10:48:50 areay: And really, this is longer term anyway. Feb 16 10:49:03 hi Feb 16 10:49:04 areay: Your N900 won't go obsolete tomorrow. Feb 16 10:50:27 ok well there are a lot of confused people on the maemo.org forums... maybe intel/nokia should let people know a little more of whats going on... and isn't the first release scheduled for q2 2010? that's potentially in april. so not tomorrow, but im not going to get the lifespan i expected out of my n900... Feb 16 10:50:48 areay, from the user's point of view, all that is changed is that Maemo 6 has been renamed to meego, maybe. There's no change for Maemo 5. Feb 16 10:51:04 areay: It nowhere says that is targetted for a Nokia device ;) Feb 16 10:51:05 areay: we're all a bit confused, let's see the code first. Feb 16 10:51:22 areay: if n900 is anything like n810, it has -very- long lifespan. Feb 16 10:51:49 im glad im not the only one thats confused lol.. Feb 16 10:52:17 thanks tho guys im glad to hear such optimism from the developers Feb 16 10:52:30 i can sleep easy now :) Feb 16 10:52:41 areay: you have a very nice device in your hands that is not dependent of vendor support. you can hack it, install your own OS, etc. Feb 16 10:53:56 If there is a Q2 release, that would match with when Moblin 2.2 was supposed to come out Feb 16 10:54:23 i know, i love it... i just recognize that 99% of its power comes from the development community... its like if canonical and redhat decided to drop both of their flagship products for a new distro... i'd be scared, even though ubuntu and rhel are both great products that i use regularly Feb 16 10:54:33 Chances are that MeeGo 1.0 for netbooks will just be a rebranding of Moblin 2.2 but with a developer build available that has QT Creator et al. Feb 16 10:54:38 areay: why do people think their N900 stops working if a newer model is announced? Feb 16 10:55:04 areay: Its not like the N900 would suddenly stop working once devices start shipping meego :p Feb 16 10:55:43 tigert: great minds think alike :) Feb 16 10:55:43 sure, the community will follow the development, but its not like all development community action on N900 stops overnight Feb 16 10:56:12 tigert: well, as long as you don't ship 300 meego devices at MeeGo 2 Summit ;) Feb 16 10:56:31 lol im not saying that, its just nokintel seem pretty determined to merge their respective communities. which would take their time away from developing maemo/moblin... obviously if meego runs nicely on my n900 im happy tho Feb 16 10:56:44 Stskeeps: :D Feb 16 10:57:15 if meego brings maemo a sane free base os Feb 16 10:57:38 it is easier to keep older hw alive by the community even Feb 16 10:57:42 yes, of course Feb 16 10:57:49 what we were trying to do with Mer, as well :) Feb 16 10:57:53 yeah Feb 16 10:57:56 areay, well any delay will extend the amount of time your N900 remains the latest Nokia device ;) Feb 16 10:58:10 tigert: exactly, The N900 would continue to get updates, and continue to work based on the feature set you get it with. for me am not even bothered about running meego on the N900. I got it for a specific feature set and for that am happy with it. I rather have maemo5 polished and all the major bugs ironed out than another buggy* meego fw release Feb 16 10:58:31 fremantle still has plenty life Feb 16 10:58:54 i think you guys have a good point... i just pictured scores of maemo developers jumping ship Feb 16 10:59:05 ...and panicked lol Feb 16 10:59:08 areay: sure they will jump ship eventually Feb 16 10:59:15 of course Feb 16 10:59:19 but right now is the best days of N900 Feb 16 10:59:26 woohoo! Feb 16 10:59:27 because there are devices out there Feb 16 10:59:39 and more and more people hack stuff for it Feb 16 11:00:25 areay: lots of maemo devs are silent on the issue, many were not consulted before this decision was made. the biggest challenge for meego is how to bring the two communities maemo and moblin together to work as one. That wont be as easy as it seems Feb 16 11:00:26 i just hope not too many projects will be put on ice... Feb 16 11:01:39 The way I see it meego was a hastly made decision pushed through by management for business consideration that technical need Feb 16 11:01:58 i doubt it's hastly. Feb 16 11:01:59 yeah thats the problem with corporations funding open source projects... they can pull out whenever they like, and the community bares the brunt of the corporation's decisions Feb 16 11:02:10 we've seen slow indications in this direction over long time. Feb 16 11:03:31 indeed, it happened faster than I thought, but it's been in the works for a long time Feb 16 11:03:53 on twitter: nokconv: I'm here with @petermaemo of Nokia to answer all your Maemo/MeeGo questions, so fire away! #Nokia #NokiaMWC #Maemo Feb 16 11:03:56 i welcome meego as long as it's not driving nails into my n900's coffin... it's great to see linux in so many devices now. Feb 16 11:04:19 #nokiamwc and let's ask questions Feb 16 11:04:22 pillar_: "WHY DOES IT USE RPM" Feb 16 11:04:23 ;) Feb 16 11:04:52 Stskeeps: or even better, why has my n900 been abandoned?!?! :) Feb 16 11:04:56 haha Feb 16 11:05:24 pillar_: who said the N900 has been abandoned? Feb 16 11:05:52 bigbrovar: just look about any thread in tmo, someone is whining about it :) Feb 16 11:06:10 pillar_: a new fw update was released today (although minor) and nokia is still working on a major PR 1.2 fw Feb 16 11:06:17 bigbrovar: everybody who don't know what they're talking about ;) Feb 16 11:06:51 leinir: Yeah definition of the internet Feb 16 11:07:00 Indeed :) Feb 16 11:07:13 bigbrovar: I know I know, I don't think it has been abandoned, I was just making fun of all that do Feb 16 11:07:59 you cant blame us tho. most people didn't see this coming; most people were sold a "flagship" device, and the talk of it being replaced so soon after its release scares them... nobody wants to invest in the next betamax Feb 16 11:08:24 its always flagship until the next one.... Feb 16 11:08:30 if nokintel had been more informative, you guys wouldn't be asnswering the same questions everywhere Feb 16 11:08:36 * av500 has a lot of flagship nokia phones... Feb 16 11:09:10 yeah me too... since the n95 i've had the flagship... but never before has it been abandoned so quickly Feb 16 11:09:41 look at symbian's lifespan... and sorry but symbian sucks compared to maemo Feb 16 11:09:44 where's the logic Feb 16 11:09:47 areay: right now the mobile space is a battle ground.. the piece at with flagship gets dislodged is stunning, (looking at drioid < Nexus) just get the device you want and stick to it.. forget about what is out there, sit down and enjoy what you have in hand Feb 16 11:10:58 hopefully meego will be the platform to end all platforms Feb 16 11:11:06 and this mess can stop Feb 16 11:11:13 areay: I love my N900 I got it cus it had what I wanted. and I am enjoying what I paid for. If tomorrow Nokia release an N910 that can raise people from the dead I would get it if I consider such future important to me Feb 16 11:12:14 areay: meego IMHO is more of a name change than anything else, on netbook it would still be the same moblin UI and maemo UI for handheld Feb 16 11:12:25 areay: with minor changes of cause Feb 16 11:12:44 well afaik its just the package format anyway Feb 16 11:12:52 who cares if its dpkg or rpm? Feb 16 11:13:01 they both do the same thing Feb 16 11:13:38 areay: the both provoke long flames? :) Feb 16 11:14:22 areay: people make so much noise about arch. If meego is going to be the consumer ready device its been positioned to be, arch wont matter at all.. whether its yum or dpkg the end user wont be bothered as long as intstallation of apps is very easy Feb 16 11:14:36 :( Feb 16 11:14:40 my laptop DVD drive seems dead Feb 16 11:15:19 lol true.. a lot of fanboys in each club... and you're right the inner workings dont matter to anyone but fanboys anyway... my concern is nokintel pissing the community off and the developers moving to android or (god forbid) iphone os... Feb 16 11:15:40 :o Feb 16 11:15:41 I am not really concerned about that Feb 16 11:15:44 not the iphone Feb 16 11:15:47 lol Feb 16 11:15:54 what do the expect on android/iphone? deb? Feb 16 11:16:14 i know you have to pay to become a proper iphone dev Feb 16 11:16:30 sounds about right coming fromapple Feb 16 11:16:54 they love to rape their customers, why not the devs too? Feb 16 11:16:57 at least with linux you just pay for the hardware Feb 16 11:17:07 interesting concept of charging people who add value to your plattform Feb 16 11:17:13 I think i was one of their victums Feb 16 11:17:26 but since it's supposed to be commercial either way it's okay i think Feb 16 11:17:51 3 logic boards, 2 screens, hard drive, top plate, light sensors, power adapter Feb 16 11:17:53 the iphone plattform was never designed to be open Feb 16 11:17:59 i know... they save money on hardware, charge an arm and a leg, and rinse their profit on advertising to keep dumb people buying their products Feb 16 11:18:26 i can sell stuff Feb 16 11:18:35 just give me a dell and some tin foil Feb 16 11:18:39 haha Feb 16 11:18:54 damn my other laptop Feb 16 11:19:09 it won't boot moblin from the internal or USB SD card Feb 16 11:19:36 damn it's 11:19, i got up late Feb 16 11:21:16 this channel is very active/responsive... it's an irc breath of fresh air. thanks for all your input guys, i'll go put my n900 buddies' minds at rest so they dont come here bitching like i did ;) Feb 16 11:21:54 Thank you muchly :) Feb 16 11:22:01 * CosmoHill burns moblin to dvd Feb 16 11:22:04 :) take it easy Feb 16 11:23:44 CosmoHill: Moblin has very specific hardware requirements, you sure your laptop is in that subset ? Feb 16 11:23:51 nope Feb 16 11:24:18 the interal SD card reader doesn't even show up on the boot menu Feb 16 11:35:46 * slaine_ waves at nedrichards Feb 16 11:35:56 elo Feb 16 11:36:52 turns out moblin won't work on my laptop :( Feb 16 11:37:25 CosmoHill: is it Intel? Feb 16 11:37:36 intel core 2 duo p7350 Feb 16 11:40:36 dammit Feb 16 11:40:37 CosmoHill: I though moblin works in all machines with c2d processor. Feb 16 11:40:44 mobin sts there blinkin Feb 16 11:40:55 when i press the power button thr dvd spins up and shuts down properly Feb 16 11:41:26 CosmoHill: what GPU does your laptop have? Feb 16 11:41:37 nvidia 9300m Feb 16 11:41:45 Moblin does not work on ATI or Nvidia GPUs :( Feb 16 11:41:49 Hi all Feb 16 11:41:59 kernel and driver issue? Feb 16 11:42:01 CosmoHill: so GPU is the problem. Feb 16 11:42:15 http://moblin.org/documentation/test-drive-moblin/using-moblin-live-image Feb 16 11:42:32 there are the requirements explained. Feb 16 11:43:14 do you think mobin will work in virtual box? Feb 16 11:44:48 There was a virtual machine image availble at some point but I'm not sure if that does still exist in the final builds. Feb 16 11:45:24 I ran some early beta build with vmware player some time ago. Feb 16 11:46:37 http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf Feb 16 11:46:43 Might be an interesting read. Feb 16 11:46:51 It is :) Feb 16 11:47:00 crap Feb 16 11:47:05 It kind of describes very admirably why Symbian still exists too ;) Feb 16 11:47:07 there was something i was meant to read by today Feb 16 11:47:12 and I'm on page 7 Feb 16 11:47:20 CosmoHill: bugger Feb 16 11:48:18 I do wish intel would just put VT in all the current processors Feb 16 11:48:22 CosmoHill: I tried to boot moblin 2.1 final with kvm without success. :( Feb 16 11:49:03 seening just curson in upperleft corner. Feb 16 11:49:10 yep Feb 16 11:49:45 i wonder if it can be modified to support nvidia Feb 16 11:49:50 It can Feb 16 11:49:53 it would be good for the ION platform Feb 16 11:49:55 I'm also pretty sure that I run moblin 2.0 something in my T61 laptop with Nvidia gpu. Feb 16 11:49:55 will meego do package management more like yum or zypp? Feb 16 11:49:58 you need to rebuild a few things, include Xorg Feb 16 11:50:23 google for moblin and nvidia ion Feb 16 11:50:30 some chap put up a guide on how to do it Feb 16 11:50:49 cool Feb 16 11:51:03 honestly I'm not used to using linux with gui :) Feb 16 11:51:05 as for using it in VirtualBox, it works, but the graphical interface is dog slow due to the lack of DRI2 drivers for vbox Feb 16 11:51:36 However, you can install the Xfce packages and use that as a desktop for dev work, that's what I do on my mac Feb 16 11:51:39 with vbox Feb 16 11:51:49 oo Feb 16 11:52:24 for the ammount of money i spent on my mac last year I could have bought a dell mini Feb 16 11:54:04 CosmoHill: lol, I bought one of those too :) Feb 16 11:54:29 my powerbook has had a new power adapter, battery and hard drive Feb 16 11:54:42 now it needs a new DVD-RW drive :( Feb 16 11:54:44 when did they release that paper, X-Fade? Feb 16 11:55:33 th0br0: Today, I think. Feb 16 11:55:37 Ok. Feb 16 11:55:46 th0br0: February 2010 according to the front page Feb 16 11:55:51 th0br0: MeeGo all over. Feb 16 11:55:54 Yeah. Feb 16 11:55:58 That's why I was wondering. Feb 16 11:55:59 Yeah, earlier today :) Feb 16 11:56:11 hmm, i can play my game at 1680x0150 but it's hard to read the text Feb 16 11:56:16 It's an ... interesting turn though. Feb 16 11:56:50 Or rather an interesting strategy. After all, Symbian will be (according to the Symbian roadmap) pretty similar in features as MeeGo is. Feb 16 11:56:56 Except for the full-linux-system ofc Feb 16 11:57:15 th0br0: And very importantly the phone-form-factor UI :) Feb 16 11:57:28 yeah. Feb 16 11:57:55 Arguably you could build that on top of MeeGo as well, but... Feb 16 11:58:05 so it's confirmed that meego (I'll never get used to that name) will use OSB for building stuff? Feb 16 11:58:12 i.e. that's something to learn? Feb 16 11:58:32 MeeGo is built from multiple open source projects; Qt Feb 16 11:58:32 and Symbian are open source projects. << I'm wondering whether that means that MeeGo will be built upon Symbian, too! Feb 16 11:58:38 (Which would answer my previous statement) Feb 16 11:58:43 villemv: you knew Mer right? Feb 16 11:59:21 yeah, as a concept :-). not well enough to actually know how the systems works behind the scenes Feb 16 11:59:25 grab a build.opensuse.org account and look at https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel Feb 16 11:59:38 "Monitor build status" is always a blast Feb 16 11:59:47 I only dislike how everyone is turning towards "Cloud Frameworks"... Feb 16 12:00:25 th0br0: Meh, just a local app with a cloud api ;) Feb 16 12:00:33 ^^ Feb 16 12:00:47 th0br0: Just marketing ;) Feb 16 12:00:52 True. Feb 16 12:02:31 well, OSB seems snazzier than what we have at maemo.org so far ;-) Feb 16 12:02:42 OBS :) Feb 16 12:02:50 and yes, it's a lot sexier Feb 16 12:02:52 I only wish that they'd have released Sym^3 or Sym^4 before this MeeGo announcement. Feb 16 12:03:04 right, OBS. So this is what MeeGo will use, anyone confirming? Feb 16 12:03:29 th0br0: why? Feb 16 12:03:36 What do you think about partnership of nokia and intel? Feb 16 12:03:47 David Greaves posted about it on ML Feb 16 12:03:58 and it looked like he's doing OBS Feb 16 12:04:03 Because we would likely be able to see how Nokia plans on integrating Qt with Symbian and maybe also how they will run things in MeeGo Feb 16 12:04:07 s/run/structure/ Feb 16 12:04:26 villemv: David = lbt, also known as our Mer build guy :) Feb 16 12:04:32 lbt_: ping Feb 16 12:05:25 now I have Novell account. Roy Schestowicz will kill me in my sleep Feb 16 12:05:34 (due to OBS) Feb 16 12:05:53 as the Qt 4.6 supports Symbian S60 3.2 and 5.0 << S60 3.2 and 5.0 are ? Sym^3 and Sym^4? Feb 16 12:06:19 OS 9.3 and Sym^1... Feb 16 12:06:20 Have you seen UI of symbian^3? It's same crap as s60v5 Feb 16 12:06:47 Yeah bartekxyz... still it's interesting that Qt 4.6 supports developing for Sym^1... I'll be looking forward to testing that once I get my 5230 Feb 16 12:07:14 the idea is to open zillions of devices for qt Feb 16 12:07:25 retroactively Feb 16 12:07:25 yeah.- Feb 16 12:07:31 villemv: pong Feb 16 12:07:53 lbt_: so you posted on mailing list about OSB. Is that what we'll have for MeeGo then? Feb 16 12:07:55 I like the idea. I mean, I'm no fan of the heavy C++ usage but yah ... :) (Plus ... I hate emit'ting stuff ;) ) Feb 16 12:08:03 Qt for sym^1 is just a trivia Feb 16 12:08:54 yes, it's public knowledge that moblin uses it Feb 16 12:09:15 lbt_: but it was not public knowledge that same thing will be in MeeGo, yet at least :-) Feb 16 12:09:37 there has been talk about "Moblin build system" in the abstract Feb 16 12:09:41 heh - well, all things can change Feb 16 12:09:47 of course Feb 16 12:09:53 but this is where we are starting out anyway Feb 16 12:10:03 yes Feb 16 12:10:25 as I say, the OBS is a build-system manager/scheduler though Feb 16 12:10:34 it's repo agnostic Feb 16 12:11:35 so current "extras" machine could use it already? Feb 16 12:11:47 provided someone did the work? Feb 16 12:12:02 bartekxyz: what do you mean by that? Feb 16 12:12:31 villemv: Yes, everybody can use it if you put in the work. Feb 16 12:12:36 Besides, I wouldn't call it a trivia as you'll be able to continue using your qt apps for sym^3 etc too! Feb 16 12:12:42 (and of course meego...) Feb 16 12:13:01 yeah, symbian^1 is well set to support the fart apps Feb 16 12:13:09 "fart apps"? Feb 16 12:13:25 you, the iphone "opportunistic programmer" apps Feb 16 12:13:28 hello Feb 16 12:13:39 Ah, ok :P villemv. Feb 16 12:13:54 IMHO all apps should be free-of-charge ;) but nvm. Feb 16 12:13:59 When will we see releases of specbuilder? Feb 16 12:14:04 or "spectacle"? Feb 16 12:14:08 villemv: yes, they could Feb 16 12:14:19 dunno, I'd pay 5eur for more levels to angry birds Feb 16 12:14:26 :P Feb 16 12:14:43 I think megis best stratege in the computer industry Feb 16 12:15:23 meego Feb 16 12:15:33 sorry i had mis-spell Feb 16 12:15:43 that depends on how it works out. Feb 16 12:16:06 in the end, it will be similar to Android in structure and targets but not in frameworks ofc. Feb 16 12:18:09 Th0br0: i mean sym^1 is slowly dying imo Feb 16 12:18:48 bartekxyz: that isn't really important imo. symbian will survive and so will the apps given that sym^3 will introduce official qt support Feb 16 12:20:13 hi Feb 16 12:31:17 great, i have a cold :( Feb 16 12:31:32 merge party! Feb 16 12:31:54 villemv: you shouldn't share a bed with roy schestowicz then, he has a habit of knifing people to get press ;) Feb 16 12:33:21 villemv: fwiw openid login is being worked on though, to keep you safe at night Feb 16 12:33:45 great Feb 16 12:34:41 and of course if you have your own instance you can login however you like. Feb 16 12:35:38 lbt_: speaking of which, do you know if Meego is going to use its own Build Service or the openSUSE instance? Feb 16 12:35:51 i assume you will have at least one private one for any closed source stuff Feb 16 12:36:24 I think Intel said they would bring the build infra - so we need to ask them Feb 16 12:36:53 Not sure of the exact layout being planned Feb 16 12:37:14 lbt_: but you are making an instance in nokia premises as well? Feb 16 12:37:17 but there will be one for closed pkgs Feb 16 12:37:22 right Feb 16 12:37:22 villemv: yes Feb 16 12:37:33 research.nokia.meego.org? Feb 16 12:37:38 heh Feb 16 12:38:17 lbt_: well i haven't seen all of moblin getting built in the public obs yet so i guess there is an intel one Feb 16 12:39:54 I'm sure there must be - isn't Moblin on the openSuse OBS an openSuse based distro? Feb 16 12:40:03 as in 'moblin compliant' Feb 16 12:40:19 (thank goodness we no longer have that confusion!) Feb 16 12:40:54 wstephenson, yes, the build system is internal at the moment. Don't know why Feb 16 12:44:13 lbt_: the novell moblin edition is based on SLED and is built internally Feb 16 12:44:37 wstephenson, all of 2.0 built fine on the obs, 2.1 builds fine on the ibs but is getting rebased on 11.2 which takes a bit of time Feb 16 12:44:38 ah Feb 16 12:45:48 does meego use X11? Feb 16 12:46:19 MisterN: yes Feb 16 12:47:05 the website needs to mention such things :) Feb 16 12:47:40 MisterN: that's pretty much implied when talking about a linux distro with a graphical shell Feb 16 12:47:55 MisterN, out of curiosity what else would it use to display? Feb 16 12:48:18 robster: not always. Feb 16 12:48:25 robster: qt-framebuffer Feb 16 12:48:26 dev/ttyS0 ? Feb 16 12:48:39 FunkyPenguin: i'm not sure what i would use, but there are other options, like directfb Feb 16 12:48:40 mmmm retro.... Feb 16 12:48:48 or maybe just a plain opengl surface? not sure :) Feb 16 12:49:23 MisterN: one of the nice things about meego is that it is very close to being a 'normal' linux distro Feb 16 12:49:29 unlike, say, android Feb 16 12:49:38 yeah. means you can use emacs :D Feb 16 12:49:43 SpeedEvil: did I say "always"? Feb 16 12:50:14 robsta: meego is not a completely normal linux anyways. Feb 16 12:50:24 robsta: sure Feb 16 12:50:50 after all it uses rpm instead of deb! Feb 16 12:50:50 MisterN: it is, it's just not a normal gnome or kde distro Feb 16 12:50:51 If it was completely normal - you'd just use ubuntu instead. Feb 16 12:50:55 but i'm glad the intel and nokia guys finally understood that android needs a _serious_ competitor. now nokia only needs to kill symbian :D Feb 16 12:51:01 Bah Feb 16 12:51:02 but it's 'just' another distro Feb 16 12:51:11 They can't kill Symbian, it's out of their hands now Feb 16 12:51:11 in many senses - when - say - android - really isn't Feb 16 12:51:31 vmlemon_: they can by not using it in new phones Feb 16 12:51:38 android is barely linux at all Feb 16 12:51:50 it's heavily modified Feb 16 12:51:52 one uid per process Feb 16 12:51:55 absurd Feb 16 12:51:55 yeah and it's java :/ Feb 16 12:51:57 sigh, symbian is going to stay, accept it Feb 16 12:52:01 bastardized java Feb 16 12:52:04 so? Feb 16 12:53:42 MisterN: qt has various gfx backends, including framebuffer, raster, x11 and opengl. how you would integrate multiple processes' UIs on one display without using x11 is an interesting question Feb 16 12:54:17 but if you had one UI shell process and the rest of the app out of process, you could eg just use the opengl gt backend Feb 16 12:54:27 wstephenson: if you don't need windows, you could just switch. but i guess windows are needed. Feb 16 12:54:34 s/gt/qt/ Feb 16 12:55:08 gt == merge netween gtk+ and qt Feb 16 12:55:12 *between Feb 16 12:55:19 ptl: lol now THAT will never happen. Feb 16 12:55:23 and how do you pronounce that? Feb 16 12:55:28 ;) Feb 16 12:55:28 gee tee Feb 16 12:56:00 more of a nasty choking sound, i think Feb 16 12:56:25 hello wstephenson Feb 16 12:56:37 hi timeless_mbp Feb 16 12:56:43 wstephenson: well only if you actually pronounce qt as cute in the first place. i never accepted that and prefer to pronounce Qt as Cue Tee :D Feb 16 12:56:54 it's pronounced 'gin and tonic' Feb 16 12:56:59 haha Feb 16 12:57:17 Hello Feb 16 12:57:42 world Feb 16 12:57:57 Will MeeGo support more programming lauguages? I think C++ is too difficult to learn Feb 16 12:57:57 ! Feb 16 12:58:13 Let the trolling begin? Feb 16 12:58:24 C# ftw Feb 16 12:58:26 liel: i guess you'll be able to script things too. Feb 16 12:58:30 qt quick will not require c++ Feb 16 12:58:30 C/C++ (or Java!) ftw! Feb 16 12:58:30 liel: there are Qt bindings for python, ruby, c# and javascript, and perl if you look hard enough. Feb 16 12:58:37 wc Feb 16 12:58:40 woops :D Feb 16 12:58:42 and QML is easier than all of those :D Feb 16 12:58:43 * Akos forgot the / Feb 16 12:58:46 good bye everyone Feb 16 12:58:48 i like PyQt4 myself Feb 16 12:58:52 wstephenson: QML is javascript, isn't it? Feb 16 12:59:02 MisterN: it's like JSON Feb 16 12:59:16 it's like CSS ;) Feb 16 12:59:28 hi wstephenson Feb 16 12:59:28 liel: so the answer is yes, you can write programs in a dumb people's language :P Feb 16 12:59:30 haskell Feb 16 12:59:37 MisterN: it can have pieces of javascript embedded, but the language itself is declarative Feb 16 12:59:50 ocaml, for porting mldonkey. Feb 16 12:59:51 to anyone who is bored but whose attention threshold is more than that needed to sit in here and start packaging system flamewars, i recommend you download one of the Qt Creator+ QML bundles and make some little animations, it's that easy. Feb 16 12:59:53 notmart: oh Feb 16 13:00:20 PyQt4 is nice to program with, but really, for mobile devices python isn't a good fit Feb 16 13:00:28 why not, angasule? Feb 16 13:00:35 Or just help to create a MeeGo version of Marble ( http://edu.kde.org/marble ) ;) Feb 16 13:00:39 th0br0: although i could imagine that if Nokia really wanted to steal android developers, they could pick up the Jambi Java bindings for Qt again. Feb 16 13:00:42 wstephenson: hey, I'd love to continue the packaging system flamewar :) I missed last night's Feb 16 13:00:43 This : http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7382/1.html was a surprise... I didn't expect that. Feb 16 13:00:48 ptl: memory and cpu requirements? Feb 16 13:00:49 true :) wstephenson Feb 16 13:00:57 That's great! I just thought that the only language for MeeGo developing is C++ Feb 16 13:01:05 not sure if lots of JVMs are a great way to spend your mobile cpu cycles though Feb 16 13:01:18 wstephenson: they are a great way to waste them... Feb 16 13:01:18 wstephenson: the best way to steal android devs is to output cool devices with a well defined app fwk and sdk..... Feb 16 13:01:20 liel: you can of course also use the various languages bindings for clutter Feb 16 13:01:30 OK Feb 16 13:01:35 liel: i don't know if they will be an official part of meego, i'm just an onlooker Feb 16 13:01:39 java, python and flash, yay! maybe with all that running you can play tetris, too Feb 16 13:02:10 angasule: what cpu requirements if what you have is a simple program with buttons and menus - like, say, a shopping list? Feb 16 13:02:35 ptl: well, unless you use an iphone, you're likely to be doing multitasking Feb 16 13:02:50 angasule: rapid prototyping more than compensates what little amount of speed and memory you lose. Feb 16 13:03:00 anyway, the process rests waiting most of the time Feb 16 13:03:08 ptl: sure, but prototypes aren't the final product :) Feb 16 13:03:32 do it in python, once you got everything right, transfer it to C++ or whatever you want Feb 16 13:03:34 with rapid prototyping you also have easier debugging, less effort Feb 16 13:03:45 * wstephenson hi5's notmart and tackat_ and any other KDEers in here Feb 16 13:03:50 and you can do more programs Feb 16 13:04:07 * tackat_ hi5's wstephenson Feb 16 13:04:16 angasule: the iphone does multitasking too - just not for lowly app programmers :) Feb 16 13:04:16 look at Canola2, for example, very pretty, easy to use, but you can't do anything else while it's open, memory hog that it is Feb 16 13:04:27 lbt_: zypper? Feb 16 13:04:30 * notmart hi5's wstephenson and the others back ;) Feb 16 13:04:58 * av500 is still on KDE 3.5.x Feb 16 13:05:18 X-Fade: would be worth a look eh? Feb 16 13:05:21 * tackat_ is still on Marble 0.9 Feb 16 13:05:22 wstephenson: i presume you're a moblin guy? Feb 16 13:05:24 av500: eew :) KDE 4 is no longer a crashfest :) Feb 16 13:05:41 angasule: does it have window list on middle mosue click on desktop? :) Feb 16 13:05:44 lbt_: Yeah, as zypper seems to have had quite some improvements and they actually worked on that. Feb 16 13:05:50 no, kde4 is now a bloat fest Feb 16 13:06:06 Don't install what you don't use. Simple. Feb 16 13:06:16 timeless_mbp: no, i'm an opensuse guy and a kde guy. but i think moblin is shiny and hope they bring that with them to meego. Feb 16 13:06:24 av500: can be done, yes Feb 16 13:06:24 ok Feb 16 13:06:33 * timeless_mbp wants to meet a moblin guy Feb 16 13:06:37 notmart: easily? tell me how and I switch :) Feb 16 13:06:39 lol Feb 16 13:06:56 * yngwin wants to meet a meego girl Feb 16 13:06:59 av500: wow, that sounds uncomfortable, I never have the desktop in sight, no idea if it can be set up, I have used hot corners, but even disabled that, I'm a keyboard jockey :) Feb 16 13:07:01 X-Fade: given the small-device target and the app manager performance in Maemo.... Feb 16 13:07:05 timeless_mbp: am a moblin user. does that count? Feb 16 13:07:11 av500: from 4.4 can be configured what each button does on the desktop Feb 16 13:07:14 nope, sorry :) Feb 16 13:07:24 * av500 thinks angry maemo devs scared all moblin people away here Feb 16 13:07:26 just in the desktop settings accessible with right click Feb 16 13:07:33 notmart: cool, thx Feb 16 13:07:34 lbt_: Extras-devel now only hosts 8K packages, imagine that going up to 100K. Feb 16 13:07:41 av500: right click on desktop, configure desktop activity settings, mouse actions, 'mmb settings' Feb 16 13:07:43 timeless_mbp: :( Feb 16 13:07:50 wstephenson: thx Feb 16 13:08:39 * angasule bites av500 Feb 16 13:08:43 av500: you forgot rabid Feb 16 13:09:03 X-Fade: 100k Feb 16 13:09:04 I'm not that of a troll Feb 16 13:09:19 One issue about MeeGo is that there is no "universe" Feb 16 13:09:47 I don't think Moblin builds all of the Fedora packages - eg against the Moblin libc Feb 16 13:09:59 so I worry we'll be back in Maemo land Feb 16 13:10:09 lbt_: Yes, and where to host community software. Feb 16 13:10:11 "if you want it, port it and all it's dependencies and then maintain them...." Feb 16 13:10:24 lbt_: Having a distro is nice, but you need to maintain it too ;) Feb 16 13:10:42 yeah... and that's not been mentioned yet has it? Feb 16 13:10:51 hi giuse Feb 16 13:11:06 lbt_: maybe this will cause us to come up with a way to have a working multi-repo ecosystem Feb 16 13:11:10 lbt_: No, thinking of proposing a working group for that. Feb 16 13:11:19 lbt_, i think the focus is on creating a product rather than making the world a better place, like debian and ubuntu Feb 16 13:11:23 ...one that does not replace rpm dependency hell with repo hell Feb 16 13:11:24 ah, so moblin was originally an apt distro, I found an article talking about the switch to rpm Feb 16 13:11:26 X-Fade: I think that's important Feb 16 13:11:37 Does Meego have an YouTube application? Feb 16 13:11:50 wstephenson: it is one reason Mer builds against Ubuntu/Debian Feb 16 13:12:11 we don't distro-manage things like python/perl and all those libs Feb 16 13:12:19 all of which form the linux lego Feb 16 13:12:21 lbt_: and of course you can't expect everything in place just one day after the announcement Feb 16 13:12:22 angasule: link? it would be interesting to see their reasoning Feb 16 13:12:33 http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2068665492.html Feb 16 13:12:38 robsta: this is a design/arch issue Feb 16 13:12:40 tnx Feb 16 13:12:42 robsta: No, but that is why we are discussing it ;) Feb 16 13:12:43 I wonder if any of the people loudly complaining about RPM have used e.g. Fedora lately Feb 16 13:12:44 not a time/implementation problem Feb 16 13:12:52 ? Feb 16 13:13:05 RPM hell is just as much hell as DEB hell nowadays Feb 16 13:13:15 lbt_: which is why i wonder if meego really will be 'a brand new rpm distro' or will base itself on an existing distro Feb 16 13:13:18 yngwin: in the beginning, it says the reasons were that RPM has licence information (umh, add a friggin' field?) and that moblin was a failure (article's words) Feb 16 13:13:28 hmm Feb 16 13:13:37 wstephenson, of course brand new! Feb 16 13:13:38 As the number of packages go up, every package management system can create dependency hell. Feb 16 13:13:43 doesn't matter anyway if you put packagekit on top Feb 16 13:13:43 It is just the nature of the beast. Feb 16 13:13:44 wstephenson: I think there will be a *real* issue if it doesn't base on another big brother Feb 16 13:13:45 rubenv: I have packaged with rpm and deb Feb 16 13:14:00 Does MeeGo have a youtube application? Feb 16 13:14:09 lbt_: and at least the OBS makes it easier to use something else as a live base and carry customising patches along Feb 16 13:14:12 X-Fade: yeap, that's why a process like debian's really help Feb 16 13:14:20 * angasule curses his hurt finger :( Feb 16 13:14:24 wstephenson: mmm Feb 16 13:14:30 liel: no Feb 16 13:14:31 as it was stated by arjan_ : moblin is not fedora, nor any other upstream - its his own upstream Feb 16 13:14:45 angasule: I have the impression that the feature sets of both have grown closer to eachother Feb 16 13:14:47 does moblin have openal soft? Feb 16 13:14:54 as someone said - it's not the packaging/building that makes a distro and avoids the upg hell..... it's QA! Feb 16 13:15:06 both work (and work well) Feb 16 13:15:07 lbt_: indeed Feb 16 13:15:22 liel: meego doesnt have anything yet, at this point it's just "the best of maemo and moblin, and qt" Feb 16 13:15:24 and if we screw with the foundation (moblin) then the rest is undermined Feb 16 13:15:27 moblin is using redhat's rpm, right? Feb 16 13:15:34 no, just rpm Feb 16 13:15:46 hey dl9pf. fancy seeing you here. but do you think intel + nokia want to have a kernel team, a toolchain team, a libc maintainer, and all the other boring bits that make up an own distro and don't sell phones? Feb 16 13:15:56 the independent rpm? I'll look into it Feb 16 13:15:57 in effect you'd be creating The Linux Foundation Linux Feb 16 13:16:02 I think meego needs to find a way to track fedora properly Feb 16 13:16:04 Limo Feb 16 13:16:07 wstephenson: they have those teams already Feb 16 13:16:09 I can develop a one in Python (If MeeGo will support python interpreter) Feb 16 13:16:10 which is a good way to get every other distro to stop talking to TLF Feb 16 13:16:15 Limo2 Feb 16 13:16:24 hey dl9pf Feb 16 13:16:45 wstephenson: kernel yes Feb 16 13:16:49 I also wonder how baseline is set. How do you determine what the versions of packages are for the next release. Feb 16 13:16:50 the rest, no Feb 16 13:16:57 X-Fade: uh huh Feb 16 13:17:03 And how do you keep that in line with other major distros. Feb 16 13:17:10 I'm off to uni, hopefully I won't get soaked in the process, bye Feb 16 13:17:12 But Moblin is not Fedora Feb 16 13:17:22 Mer did it by basing on Ubuntu Feb 16 13:17:29 and layering Mer Feb 16 13:17:31 Maemo Feb 16 13:17:33 X-Fade, err... keep in line with other distros? are you kidding? Feb 16 13:17:52 that is what Meego is with maemo layered on moblin Feb 16 13:18:05 but moblin needs to layer on something else Feb 16 13:18:07 slonopotamus: You need to be in line with most of your libs, so you can get the benefits of software developed for other flavous. Feb 16 13:18:12 yes Feb 16 13:18:23 X-Fade, it didn't stop maemo :) Feb 16 13:18:42 but then we look at the release/freeze cycles Feb 16 13:18:44 hmmm Feb 16 13:18:46 I also did some programming with SuSE 10's librpm, which is quite old, and found a memory leak in it, meh Feb 16 13:19:09 X-Fade, you know what glibc you have in fremantle? :) Feb 16 13:19:21 slaine_: != Fedora is the problem Feb 16 13:19:26 Why does moblin need to layer on something else? Feb 16 13:19:43 Moblin was attempting to hit that 6 month sweet spot to keep insync with upstream releases Feb 16 13:19:45 SpeedEvil: it must be turtles all the way down.... Feb 16 13:19:45 SpeedEvil: how many apps are there in Moblin? Feb 16 13:19:48 SpeedEvil, because otherwise you get same crap as maemo. Feb 16 13:19:55 SpeedEvil: because maintaining an entire linux distro is big heap work. Feb 16 13:20:12 wstephenson, have you looked at current moblin? Feb 16 13:20:17 SpeedEvil, with all that repackaging and missing tons of packages. Feb 16 13:20:19 lbt_: Why not OpenSuse or Mandriva or Feb 16 13:20:28 Fedora has nothing to do with anything Feb 16 13:20:28 jku_: no - it's behind closed doors!!! Feb 16 13:20:33 slackware. It's clearly the only solution. Feb 16 13:20:40 either you have to spend a lot of time keeping it up to date or you update infrequently and spend a lot of time making old linux work with new hardware. Feb 16 13:20:47 jku_: 2.1 was the last i tried Feb 16 13:21:19 new hardware mostly is in kernel Feb 16 13:21:36 wstephenson: ah - I was thinking of phones - where new hardware isn't such of an issue Feb 16 13:21:41 oh, hey wstephenson :) Feb 16 13:21:45 long time no see Feb 16 13:21:53 3 bald kde guys in one room Feb 16 13:21:59 haha Feb 16 13:22:02 watch the geiger counter Feb 16 13:22:17 SpeedEvil: new hw is an issue on phones!!! Feb 16 13:22:29 sigh ... gotta go. Back l8r anyhow, I think the lack of an underlying multi-0000 package distro is *way* more of an issue than rpm/deb Feb 16 13:23:05 markey: So, what colour do you want the bike shed to be? ;) Feb 16 13:23:05 Having a community moblin-extras repo would benefit there Feb 16 13:23:13 lbt_ only if you want a general purpose distro, not so much for a specialised one like meego Feb 16 13:23:18 lbt, what did you mean with closed doors? Feb 16 13:23:43 robsta: nope - see Mer Feb 16 13:23:53 robsta: in fairness, there's still stuff that an extras repo would cover that's not related to the target audience Feb 16 13:24:00 jku_: Where is moblin 2.2 building? Feb 16 13:24:12 see my rpms for broadcom drivers and gstreamer codecs Feb 16 13:24:19 people here seem to think meego is the next fedora or ubuntu Feb 16 13:24:29 or debian, whatever, but it's clearly not Feb 16 13:24:48 lbt, like mentioned the build system is currently internal for some reason, but the packages and development aren't Feb 16 13:25:01 jku_: OK - sorry. Feb 16 13:25:12 food - l8r Feb 16 13:25:14 robsta, if you want specialized system, take general-purpose distro and only install specialized for your needs software. no reason to start new distro from scratch. Feb 16 13:25:41 robsta: agreed, and all this talk about the multitude of deb apps is irrelevant as the majority of them wouldn't be any use on my TV or in my car Feb 16 13:26:03 slonopotamus: no, because then you are not able to optimise things like startup time as much Feb 16 13:26:09 No TeX in your car? Feb 16 13:26:14 Sucks to be you, then >:) Feb 16 13:26:18 they might be on your netbook Feb 16 13:26:27 I want all the ham radio stuff it debian Feb 16 13:26:31 robsta, why you won't? Feb 16 13:27:01 i don't get why people are moaning about base distro management, that's not a community burden Feb 16 13:27:18 agreed Feb 16 13:27:24 I installed debian etch (and later lenny) on a laptop with 32MB of RAM, it was snappy Feb 16 13:27:31 slonopotamus, by your argument all but one distro are useles... Feb 16 13:27:34 there are not too many details out yet => not enough moanworthy topics :-) Feb 16 13:27:47 robsta: because people/community _do_ care about base system? Feb 16 13:27:47 villemv: true Feb 16 13:27:48 robsta: I guess many of those of us complaining are actually software developers :) Feb 16 13:28:25 one cool thing nobody noticed - now the development is actually out there in the open, for base system Feb 16 13:28:35 I'll have to create an entirely new package for moblin, meh Feb 16 13:28:41 leinir: pink, clearly! Feb 16 13:28:43 as opposed to maemo, where a ready platform descends from heavens when beta sdk is out Feb 16 13:28:47 Corsac, angasule you can submit patches like with every other project Feb 16 13:29:08 if you wave your rights to the patch Feb 16 13:29:14 everything for Meego 1.0 (moblin 2.2) is out in the wild Feb 16 13:29:16 slaine_, touche... Feb 16 13:29:30 robsta: I fail to see the point :) Feb 16 13:29:44 so moblin 2.2 == meego 1.0? Feb 16 13:29:47 robsta: now? Feb 16 13:29:49 Corsac: you can't just go patch something in debian core, neither in meego Feb 16 13:30:17 robsta: I package Feb 16 13:30:22 markey: With or without sparklies? ;) Feb 16 13:31:05 btw, I suppose we can trivially steal fedora / opensuse packaging for apps? Feb 16 13:31:23 just like we can w/ debian currently Feb 16 13:31:47 villemv, sure Feb 16 13:31:54 in a lot of cases it's just an rpmbuild of the source rpm Feb 16 13:32:14 i just had a horrible thought. suppose meego is just a marketing exercise, and intel releases moblin 2.2 as meego 1.0 for netbooks, nokia releases maemo6 as meego 1.0 for mobile, and nothing under the hood improves. Feb 16 13:32:15 in some cases there's a few spec file tweaks needed for differing project names etc. Feb 16 13:32:17 I'm stil ahving a hard time to understand what the "MeeGo User Experience Subsystem" is. Feb 16 13:32:20 *having Feb 16 13:32:30 And why you'd need BSD style licensing for that. Feb 16 13:32:38 wstephenson: That's exactly what's going to happen Feb 16 13:32:45 wstephenson, you can't expect miracles in a short time Feb 16 13:32:52 wstephenson: That is what the first release will probably be. Feb 16 13:32:57 I guess it is not the area where community members contribute packages, is it? Feb 16 13:32:58 wstephenson: This is a longer term project. Feb 16 13:33:00 jku_: i don't. i just hope the convergence happens Feb 16 13:33:24 so, what runs moblin? Feb 16 13:33:31 Though, maemo6 might not be branded meego per se, it could be branded as meego compliant or something Feb 16 13:33:49 slaine_: It will be branded MeeGo. Feb 16 13:33:58 slaine_: There will not be any Maemo 6 branding. Feb 16 13:34:01 angasule: most Atom+9[46]5 netbooks and nettops Feb 16 13:34:21 slaine_: so nothing has been released with moblin preinstalled? Feb 16 13:34:38 X-Fade: ok, strange considering it won't actually be using any meego foundations, or will it ? Feb 16 13:34:43 it has been said many times already, moblin has shipped with several netbooks Feb 16 13:34:54 slaine_: re rebuilding rpms, the OBS lets you have rpm name mappings so you can build one specfile many times for different distri, no rewriting needed for that Feb 16 13:35:05 slaine_: MeeGo will be Maemo6 + Moblin, shake it a bit.. Tadaa :) Feb 16 13:35:15 lol Feb 16 13:35:20 And for my next trick Feb 16 13:35:39 * RST38h can almost bet the end product will be called "Maemo Device, based on the MeeGo platform" Feb 16 13:35:43 I must look at using OBS Feb 16 13:35:44 villemv: well, that was my question, can you name one? I want to look 'em up Feb 16 13:35:47 slaine_: Basically they share a lot already, but are different in some points too. This is where the work will need to be done. Feb 16 13:36:08 nod Feb 16 13:36:25 slaine_: But Maemo 6 will be a deb based release for sure. Feb 16 13:36:27 Moblin and Maemo already share most of the GNOME Moblile stack, QT4 is already on Moblin Feb 16 13:36:36 Where "MMaemo" will come to mean differentiation apps Feb 16 13:37:01 FS layout won't match though, package formats different, repo's different Feb 16 13:37:15 It's going to be MeeGo 2.0 that things really gel I suspect Feb 16 13:37:20 angasule: sachin007: samsung, msi, dell netbooks Feb 16 13:37:52 in fairness, dell never shipped moblin proper, they shipped the Ubuntu Moblin Remix Feb 16 13:37:57 angasule, although some of those are probably + moblin bits Feb 16 13:37:58 leinir: with, but they must be twinkled Feb 16 13:38:07 And I don't know of any hardware that shipped with Moblin Proper Feb 16 13:38:39 How and ever, I downloaded the Moblin images and installed them on my dell mini 9 and loved them all Feb 16 13:38:54 even if I had to roll my own support for codecs and wifi Feb 16 13:39:39 markey: What?! You're insane! Un-twinkled sparklies are vastly superior! ;) Feb 16 13:40:20 add your own twinkles Feb 16 13:41:43 will meego standardize on the harmattan platform security approach? Feb 16 13:41:52 or does it specify its own? Feb 16 13:42:07 or is it "implement something you think you need"? Feb 16 13:42:25 * timeless_mbp chuckles Feb 16 13:42:39 some of us are hoping that was just a proposal that never makes it out the door Feb 16 13:49:32 also, will Maemo Devices rename to MeeGo Devices? ;p Feb 16 13:50:09 Stskeeps: Just imagine what maemians will be renamed into Feb 16 13:50:27 maemork == meegork? Feb 16 13:50:35 slonopotamus: ? Feb 16 13:50:42 RST38h: meegoinsane! Feb 16 13:50:51 andre__: gorks Feb 16 13:51:31 meegos? meegs? Feb 16 13:51:48 I'll vote for ameegos, still. Feb 16 13:52:02 meego.com bugameego Feb 16 13:52:35 ameego! Feb 16 13:52:39 that i9s great Feb 16 13:52:47 er, how did my is get a 9 in it :( Feb 16 13:55:31 so, 'll next nokia phone say n910 'll a meego device..? Feb 16 13:58:34 ksanjeet: does it matter? ;) Feb 16 14:00:19 ksanjeet: that would be unlikely - harmattan/meego is not a phone os ;) Feb 16 14:01:12 Probably the umpteenth time it's been asked but: Why RPM? Feb 16 14:01:17 andre__: qgil wrote "Then there will be the obvious difference in packaging (deb still for Harmattan, rpm for MeeGo) but this won't be the big issue and anyway compatibility with Symbian implies specific packaging as well." - dix he mix something up? Feb 16 14:01:30 Oli``: hahahaha Feb 16 14:01:53 i thought it was obvious...as nokia n900 ships with maemo Feb 16 14:02:16 juliank, ermm... why should I know? Feb 16 14:02:31 juliank: No? seems valid? Feb 16 14:02:35 juliank: Which bit do you think is mixed up? Feb 16 14:02:40 ksanjeet: and the n900 is not a phone :) (unlike what some of the phone companies would like to tell you ;) ) Feb 16 14:02:54 It just happens to be able to make phone calls and have an in-built 3G modem :) Feb 16 14:02:58 andre__: You wrote that it will use RPM, but qgil wrote "deb still for Harmattan" Feb 16 14:03:03 yes...its rather called internet tablet... Feb 16 14:03:09 *nods* Exactly :) Feb 16 14:03:20 juliank, where and when did I write this? :) Feb 16 14:03:29 juliank: So obviously harmattan won't be MeeGo. Feb 16 14:03:41 juliank: Just aligned with ;) Feb 16 14:03:45 andre__: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529239&postcount=14 Feb 16 14:04:04 andre__: Maybe 'it' meant MeeGo there, and harmattan is not really MeeGo? Feb 16 14:04:40 leinir: so, 'll n900 successors run on meego? Feb 16 14:05:04 ksanjeet: What is with the 'll ? Feb 16 14:05:05 juliank, if in doubt, Quim is right :) Feb 16 14:05:11 that's the expectation Feb 16 14:05:36 'll = will Feb 16 14:05:56 ksanjeet: Great compression ;) Feb 16 14:06:05 'll is not used stand-alone Feb 16 14:06:34 ksanjeet: That's what i gather, anyway :) But that's just what i'm judging from what i've heard - i'm not exactly on the inside here ;) Feb 16 14:06:38 juliank, Harmattan is MeeGo with some changes AFAIU Feb 16 14:07:04 andre__: It will basically be the other way around for the phone part ;) Feb 16 14:07:21 hehe Feb 16 14:07:23 andre__: MeeGo will get what is in Harmattan. Feb 16 14:08:12 andre__: OK; I guess I should just wait for Quim and see whether he replies. Feb 16 14:08:23 But the rebranding of Maemo 6 to MeeGo makes is a bit weird as it technically isn't. Feb 16 14:08:55 right, it seems like we're moving from maemo.org communist cabal to the MeGoo ARM saboteurs cabal Feb 16 14:08:58 * Stskeeps headdesks Feb 16 14:09:01 X-Fade: Having one brand is an advantage even if things are a bit different. Feb 16 14:09:08 X-Fade: true...still i would like it be renamed.. Feb 16 14:09:21 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529421&postcount=413 <- arm saboteur cabal Feb 16 14:09:24 juliank: Yeah, but that also would make people assume that things will be compatible. Feb 16 14:10:07 "You only have to develop it once" Feb 16 14:10:18 X-Fade: There will be common APIs, but there are vendor-specific additions. Feb 16 14:10:29 At least that's how I understand it. Feb 16 14:10:38 we still 've 4 months for maemo-6/meego release anyway Feb 16 14:10:47 juliank: Sure, but that is still a year out at least. Feb 16 14:10:59 Stskeeps: Classy Feb 16 14:11:35 Stskeeps: One cabal or the other, you will be exterminated, all your base... =) Feb 16 14:12:02 X-Fade: And Nokia wants to push Web Runtime, so many apps are basically html pages; which can run on all devices equally well. Feb 16 14:12:26 Symbian, MeeGo, Harmattan Feb 16 14:12:56 juliank: And then still you won't be able to run your app nicely on every device. Because of screen resolution etc etc. Feb 16 14:13:18 juliank: Always needs a bit of tweaking. It will run, but might not look great. Feb 16 14:14:16 I wait for the point when someone realizes that one could merge QML and WRT, with QML offering the hooks into the app's backend. Feb 16 14:23:09 -c Feb 16 14:23:22 goddam swedish keyboard Feb 16 14:23:31 hi Feb 16 14:23:51 'lo jeremiah Feb 16 14:24:28 hmm... Isee lot of people here and lot of familiar nicks ;D Feb 16 14:25:25 'tis the future, :P Feb 16 14:26:15 jeremiah: dont hate on a proper keyboard layout! ;) Feb 16 14:26:27 Stskeeps: I was talking about Cwiiis robster and few other ex=OH people Feb 16 14:27:38 Stskeeps: buy yes, lot of maemo ones Feb 16 14:28:18 s/but/buy - crappy keyboard here Feb 16 14:38:03 hy everybod Feb 16 14:38:05 y Feb 16 14:38:20 why is rpm used instead of deb? Feb 16 14:38:38 a choice made, probably Feb 16 14:39:05 what difference will it make to your phone ? Feb 16 14:39:11 is it *really* that important? seriously, people: get the fuck over it Feb 16 14:39:33 you're not going to by typing apt-get install firefox Feb 16 14:39:44 if you have to, then MeeGo has failed Feb 16 14:40:11 slaine_: but you might be typing apt-get install openvpn Feb 16 14:40:13 slaine_, there's "have to" and there's "want to" Feb 16 14:40:25 I thought deb can get libs and needed files dynamically from the net. what rpm can't? Feb 16 14:40:28 use debian then if you want to Feb 16 14:40:48 wizkoder: rpm can nowadays. Feb 16 14:40:53 wizkoder: dpkg can't either ;) Feb 16 14:40:59 yes, the deb file format can magically retrieve bits from the internet Feb 16 14:41:08 by using magic pixie fairies Feb 16 14:41:09 ebassi, do you have to swear and demean people? Feb 16 14:41:11 and unicorns Feb 16 14:41:11 and we all hold hands and sing Feb 16 14:41:30 * screen-x knew there was something magical about debian Feb 16 14:41:37 trbs: in 48 hours that's the only thing I've heard about MeeGo Feb 16 14:41:44 trbs: it's depressing and frustrating Feb 16 14:41:45 .deb is an archive format with scripts and a manifest. So is rpm Feb 16 14:42:04 I use kubuntu. And the package management is really good. WOuld like to have this (as it is right now) on my smartphone too! Feb 16 14:42:14 wizkoder: then get a n900 and enjoy fremantle :P Feb 16 14:42:15 That's the tools around the package manager Feb 16 14:42:18 really? no, seriously? Feb 16 14:42:18 Hello.. probably asked before, but here we go again. Anyone know about the UI frameworks? Will DUI be the "Handheld UI Framework"? What about the Netbook version? Feb 16 14:42:24 already have one :-) Feb 16 14:42:25 gah, now I'm infected too Feb 16 14:42:31 what's DUI? Feb 16 14:42:32 that's the tools around the package file Feb 16 14:42:43 jsa_: i haven't heard any indications yet Feb 16 14:42:52 jsa_: It's in Qt, so no, it will be available even on the desktop - let alone the netbook :) Feb 16 14:42:56 all distros have simialr tools, some people prefere one of the the other, but they all perform exactly the same tasks Feb 16 14:42:56 Maemo 6 UI Framework, DirectUI (DUI) Feb 16 14:43:00 hi, since several people asked for technical data I sent the following message http://people.debian.org/~danchev/msg few hours ago to meego-dev list but it seems it didn't reach the list or perhaps it is not approved yet? (no pun intended, really;-) Feb 16 14:43:09 jsa_: on the netbook, for meego 1.0, we're still using Clutter and Mx Feb 16 14:43:10 wstephenson: it's a layer on top of Qt for touch screen devices deveoped for maemo Feb 16 14:43:13 flightplan: did you subscribe? Feb 16 14:43:17 DirectUI? It's Declarative UI ;) Feb 16 14:43:29 Stskeeps: no I'm not subscribed. should I ? Feb 16 14:43:33 slaine_: that's why i was trying to explain things in the really simple 'yes rpm can do everything your ubuntu can' terms. Feb 16 14:43:38 flightplan: yes, otherwise it's held in moderation Feb 16 14:43:43 right Feb 16 14:43:54 I do wonder if Nokia engineers realized what DUI means in the US :-) Feb 16 14:44:00 I'm so sick of this discussion too. It's going to be weeks before it dies down I fear Feb 16 14:44:02 oh okay, I'd wait for moderator approval, this is fine with me. Feb 16 14:44:18 slaine_: the best way to overpower that discussion is by talking about other things :) Feb 16 14:44:28 Like unicorns ? Feb 16 14:44:28 ebassi: get drunk and start coding? :P Feb 16 14:44:36 slaine_: it won't ever die down - it's like "you're shipping emacs on the handset?! but I want vim!" Feb 16 14:44:44 lol Feb 16 14:44:44 slaine_: i vote we talk about the color scheme of the website. Feb 16 14:44:45 :P Feb 16 14:44:49 MuJ: possibly ;-) Feb 16 14:44:53 Developing Under Influence Feb 16 14:45:00 ebassi: vim will be shipped Feb 16 14:45:04 ebassi: yeah, my post to the moblin email list summed it up Feb 16 14:45:05 ebassi: That's not so important, since the name of the tech in the public eye is QUICK (Qt User Interface Creation Kit) :) Feb 16 14:45:05 * dazo would love emacs on his N900 Feb 16 14:45:09 * dazo runs and hides Feb 16 14:45:09 vim is the way to go Feb 16 14:45:20 slaine_: it's fair to recognize that they have the same goal but that they are different, there are numerous reasons to prefer one over the other, and the initial choice will influence on what existing communities will join Meego or stay away from it Feb 16 14:45:33 yey, hijacked the flame! from packaging formats to editors! Feb 16 14:45:33 "This one announcement covers the most amount of topics for a flamewar that I've seen for a long time. So the media reactions will be very interesting." Feb 16 14:45:44 leinir: still... :-) Feb 16 14:45:51 isn't there emacs already on the N900? Feb 16 14:46:01 next religion and politics... Feb 16 14:46:05 is the toolkit flamewar happening on another channel? Feb 16 14:46:06 is there an official text editor for meego? Feb 16 14:46:12 i think it's the obvious next step Feb 16 14:46:24 gedit Feb 16 14:46:49 sed Feb 16 14:46:51 bpeel: ed - it's optimised for small displays. Feb 16 14:46:57 buxy, it's nothing to do with the apps being in .deb or .rpm at the end of the day. It's the case that the Maemo guys seem to be being asked to give up their whole foundation platform and move to another camp. And I can understand how frustrating that is Feb 16 14:47:17 flightplan, triggers, symbols - so does rpm Feb 16 14:47:17 wstephenson: true, but unfortunately it's not optimised for people :) Feb 16 14:47:38 bpeel: I hear that there's going to be a default IDE... but hopefully it's more than just a text editor. Feb 16 14:47:44 arjan: so long as sed is compiled with ssse3 we'll be ok ;0 Feb 16 14:47:52 slaine_: i'm honestly not sad to see maemo base system go. Feb 16 14:47:58 it was so horrid in the end. Feb 16 14:48:05 jsmith: Qt Creator, it's super-nifty :) Feb 16 14:48:14 perhaps that's why Nokia felt they should step back Feb 16 14:48:34 from the outside looking it, they seem to have been stepping back from it for a while now Feb 16 14:49:59 slaine_: From my standpoint, I think it's been a lot of duplicated work, and work that Nokia hasn't been really excited about Feb 16 14:50:16 nod Feb 16 14:50:30 I wonder, when people flame about two things and dont realise, that there are other things, which may fits better on certain purpose... Feb 16 14:50:38 slaine_: I'm sure they saw it as an opportunity to focus on what they're passionate about (the user experience) and not have to spend so much time/energy/effort to keep the underlying OS current Feb 16 14:50:53 and an end to duplicated effort is one of the best reason for a merge. It's a pity change can be such a painful pill to swallow Feb 16 14:51:29 I for one am pretty excited about this Feb 16 14:51:46 why are people moaning about meego being rpm anyway? i mean, the changeover happened in moblin 2.0 - go identify what happened there instead :) Feb 16 14:52:02 and what the reasons were to settle on something other than ubuntu Feb 16 14:52:10 I've been a huge fan of Moblin for a long time now and I think it's great to have this influx of passionate enthusiasts into a single focused project. Feb 16 14:52:18 i think there's more technical reasons than "license header" Feb 16 14:52:25 there are. Feb 16 14:52:28 * Martix prefers opkg on mobile devices Feb 16 14:52:29 wolf^: I'm not talking about debugging symbols, what I meant were object symbols, but well... Feb 16 14:52:32 slaine_: ditto :) Feb 16 14:52:35 it has mostly to do with the backend infrastructure Feb 16 14:52:36 Stskeeps: bikeshed. Feb 16 14:52:40 not with the packaging format. Feb 16 14:52:41 flightplan, so am I Feb 16 14:52:43 stanojr: It's like most things... people are afraid of change, and want to ascribe to malice what can be easily explained away as a matter of choice. Feb 16 14:53:03 slaine_: was there a similar sized scrap in moblin when they switched from deb o rpm? Feb 16 14:53:20 Change needs to be proven first for people to really be comfortable. That will happen, but takes a while. Feb 16 14:53:21 (just fwiw, i am happy with rpm change, even though i don't know a shred of spec yet.) Feb 16 14:53:27 wolf^: any prove on that? Feb 16 14:53:28 * arjan is hoping that people get away from emotion a little over time and realize the good things that meego can do Feb 16 14:53:41 arjan: +1 Feb 16 14:53:44 arjan: +1 Feb 16 14:53:45 flightplan, http://hany.sk/~hany/RPM/libc.so.6%28GLIBC_2.0%29.html Feb 16 14:54:04 flightplan, I don't know how that does relate to what does dpkg provide, but something's there Feb 16 14:54:06 arjan++ Feb 16 14:54:46 wolf^: you should really read the manpages I supplied ;-) Feb 16 14:54:58 flightplan, long and boring ;) Feb 16 14:55:07 leinir: By DUI I meant this http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework, which AFAIK is not the same as the Qt declarative UI stuff. Might be totally wrong about the "Direct" part though. :) Feb 16 14:55:11 I'm excited about meego, as I liked the idea of memo, but didn't think it would have a large enough following. Hopefully other phone manufacturers will get involved with meego :) Feb 16 14:55:16 wstephenson: I got involved after that change over Feb 16 14:55:29 wolf^: fair enough, talking is easy thanks. Feb 16 14:55:52 jsa_: you're right, fyi, DUI and QML are two different things Feb 16 14:55:57 arjan: i think what people are really waiting for, is information on architecture, silly stuff if you'll use git/gitorious, how contributions are being done, cos right now some of the documents are a bit air-y :) Feb 16 14:56:07 screen-x: LG are already involved I believe Feb 16 14:56:14 Stskeeps: I don't mean to state the obvious, but it's day two. Feb 16 14:56:28 arjan: can you elaborate on this? what makes the backend so special that it's best to switch to RPM? (you might want to reply to my mail on meego-dev if you prefer) Feb 16 14:56:29 w00t: day zero was yesterday ;) Feb 16 14:56:29 Stskeeps: things are going to take a while to settle, digest, and start working Feb 16 14:56:29 arjan++ Feb 16 14:56:38 Stskeeps: I'm a BASIC programmer at heart Feb 16 14:56:40 wolf^: hint: there is no way to catch say missing symbols package build time. but whatever... they are there. Feb 16 14:56:40 slaine_: Great :) Feb 16 14:56:48 hello. question, what're the reasons for going with rpm instead of deb? Feb 16 14:56:52 * w00t headdesks Feb 16 14:56:55 *bangs head* Feb 16 14:56:58 nooooooh Feb 16 14:57:06 lol Feb 16 14:57:09 pain ;-) lol Feb 16 14:57:10 * buxy is caring about the issue precisely because I see lots of potential in Meego Feb 16 14:57:27 Has anyone been counting how many times the rpm vs deb thing has been asked? Feb 16 14:57:33 jsa_: 25+ times Feb 16 14:57:38 oh wait, apparently i'm asking the same question that's being asked right now. XD Feb 16 14:57:45 lol Feb 16 14:57:47 i think it counts as a FAQ by now. Feb 16 14:57:47 Stskeeps: In the last two hours? :) Feb 16 14:57:48 flightplan, no, I guess not Feb 16 14:57:54 Terminus: political mostly Feb 16 14:58:00 flightplan, but should be package manager responsible for tracking broken libraries? Feb 16 14:58:03 sandman: =( Feb 16 14:58:03 Terminus-: it's discussed in the argument, please go present your arguments there. Feb 16 14:58:05 umm... WTF is potential and package management got to do with e€h other?? Feb 16 14:58:07 I'd just like to point out that god kills a baby kittens every time it's mentioned Feb 16 14:58:17 given it's a FAQ it would be good to have clear answer from the Meego steering committee Feb 16 14:58:19 s/argument/mailing list/ Feb 16 14:58:25 wolf^: read on please what I already wrote. no need for redundancy, really. Feb 16 14:58:26 javispedro: ok. Feb 16 14:58:29 backend infra? Feb 16 14:58:36 buxy: the problem is just.. are people going to be accepting the argumentation? Feb 16 14:58:40 slaine_: using the hardback copy of Maxximum Rpm Feb 16 14:58:40 or just blinding keep on going? Feb 16 14:58:40 oops, was scrolledback Feb 16 14:58:46 rofl Feb 16 14:59:08 Okay, I understand your pain now. I am in the channel since a few minates and this rpm/deb question pops up all the time. Sorry for asking it! Feb 16 14:59:10 another question, does this mean maemo and moblin as projects will stop existing at some point in the future? Feb 16 14:59:21 arjan: you said: [14:54] it has mostly to do with the backend infrastructure not with the packaging format. Feb 16 14:59:29 can you explain? Feb 16 14:59:35 Stskeeps: certainly not everybody but having a reason documented tell us whether we can make it change or not Feb 16 14:59:52 (through contributed code/work) Feb 16 15:00:19 lbt_: the way I understand it, is that the primary discussion points are coming from personal experience with things like 'apt-get' or 'yum', and not from the actual formats themselves Feb 16 15:00:30 lbt_: on a high level (not sure how much my nda is obsolete now); it's things from build system to QA systems to image and installer stuff Feb 16 15:00:44 oh, then I way misunderstood that, huzzah Feb 16 15:00:48 lbt_: including how updates are done from the server side and process side Feb 16 15:00:59 w00t: fighting out the system is also a valid concern for the ed users, isn't it? Feb 16 15:01:04 lbt_: none of this has to do with the packaging format itsef Feb 16 15:01:15 build system is OBS so that handles both Feb 16 15:01:15 anyway can we talk about something interesting instead ;) Feb 16 15:01:26 well, we need people to understand Feb 16 15:01:42 mikhas: what do you mean by qml hooks w/ wrt? Feb 16 15:01:46 and I'm telling people that it's *not* an infra decision Feb 16 15:01:55 flightplan: if tools are the problem, then tools *can* be improved.. if there is nothing wrong with the format itself, and architecturally, it's more convenient, then it's time to improve the tools, really Feb 16 15:01:56 mikhas: drawing qml objects over webview? Feb 16 15:02:10 lbt_: it's a whole package. Feb 16 15:02:17 flightplan, ok, there's no such thing, but what's the use case for it? Feb 16 15:02:22 arjan: installer and imager and qa reuse makes sense, yes Feb 16 15:02:33 arjan: the nokia ones were pretty much not in the open Feb 16 15:02:44 Stskeeps: it's the whole package; it's not something where you can go and pick random pieces Feb 16 15:02:49 arjan: OK Feb 16 15:02:57 arjan: yeah - it makes sense when i got that explained Feb 16 15:02:58 w00t: fare enough. fwiw, I already wrote a message with some point to meego-dev list, which is now waiting to be approved. Feb 16 15:03:11 Here's the hard truth as I see it. Nokia have dropped platform responsibility and so stepped back from Maemo. They wanted to concentrate on QT4 frameworks and an applications stack that would run in more places than 1. So they entered an agreement with Intel to move their application stack to Moblin. Nokia are also looking to use Atom processors in the furture, so having a common platform now that allowed this then was a good move. Intel agreed and they ma Feb 16 15:03:11 flightplan: subscribe. :-) Feb 16 15:03:11 it as a merge. The top layer of Maemo will be ported to Moblin and Intel will rebrand Moblin to MeeGo Feb 16 15:03:46 * slaine_ ducks and covers Feb 16 15:03:47 arjan: i think that very simple argument needs to be written somewhere - you have production quality build system, qa, imager and installers Feb 16 15:04:11 *nod* Feb 16 15:04:14 these are built on the rpm technology and is open and it is part of what you contribute to the platform Feb 16 15:04:19 slain: thinks you are right Feb 16 15:04:23 slaine_: why? I think that's the case... Feb 16 15:04:34 these didn't exist in maemo before Feb 16 15:04:39 is that infrastructure package open? i.e. can we hack it to work with debian systems too? Feb 16 15:04:49 buxy: hi - ues Feb 16 15:04:50 yes Feb 16 15:05:00 OBS is 100% GPL Feb 16 15:05:07 lbt_: OBS is only part of it Feb 16 15:05:12 agreed with Stskeeps, arjan: it would prevent a lot of the confusion, and provide a useful resource to move on with things rather than going around in circles with the same discussion as we seem to be experiencing at the moment :) Feb 16 15:05:14 but many components are open Feb 16 15:05:21 but realize that some of it is more process than bits Feb 16 15:05:25 lbt_: OBS is the build only, what about QA, imager, installer stuff? Feb 16 15:05:54 imager is kickstart wasn't it? Feb 16 15:05:56 at least someone should state that decision has already been made Feb 16 15:06:06 indeed buxy Feb 16 15:06:13 Installer will probably be more device specific? Feb 16 15:06:17 since it appears people foster an image where they can revert it by keeping enough noise Feb 16 15:06:25 X-Fade: probably, that's another challenge Feb 16 15:06:29 but more collaboration at the builder level will feed collaboration in things like ks Feb 16 15:06:32 X-Fade: but it bends down to image generation Feb 16 15:06:35 buxy: you can look here i guess: http://git.moblin.org/ Feb 16 15:06:36 villemv: I think a lot of that energy and noise is purely through not understanding the motivations Feb 16 15:06:52 villemv: so, my hope is that if the motivations and situation were explained, then that energy would go somewhere more productive Feb 16 15:07:12 arjan: Is spec-builder open yet ? Feb 16 15:07:20 slaine_: afaik it's on git.moblin.org Feb 16 15:07:42 I can't see it if it is Feb 16 15:07:45 w00t: right, discussion now revolves around people assuming this be an "incompetent" decision where people in the know were not consulted Feb 16 15:07:54 Stskeeps: And if you want to do things like kernel flashing on the fly etc etc. Feb 16 15:07:54 villemv: exactly :) Feb 16 15:07:56 we've been asking about that one form months Feb 16 15:08:18 villemv: whereas it now shows there is a point behind things instead. Feb 16 15:08:58 well, how do we move on, then? come up with the reasoning and explanation as to why it's happening, and sticking that in the FAQ? Feb 16 15:09:37 w00t: surely that would help a lot of users find their way. Feb 16 15:09:48 flightplan: :) that's the idea Feb 16 15:09:49 No, it'll help developers Feb 16 15:09:53 users won't know or care Feb 16 15:10:01 slaine_: matter of terminology difference I think Feb 16 15:10:12 sorry, being a pedant Feb 16 15:10:34 * w00t scrolls back up to try find snippets of sanity to put together Feb 16 15:10:56 slaine_: indeed it's not there and it's being replaced by spectacle, which hopefully will be public soon-ish Feb 16 15:11:09 sigh Feb 16 15:11:17 damien_l: but we shold still publish the git Feb 16 15:11:23 I thought it was done already (we asked for it) Feb 16 15:11:32 in fairness damien_l, that's the same old story I've heard for the last 2 years nearly Feb 16 15:12:06 slaine_: at least Moblin doesn't look like http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/openness/pr1.1/ :P Feb 16 15:12:07 and its that behind closed doors approach of, we'll give it to you when we're ready, that drives people bananas Feb 16 15:12:19 arjan: I can't agree more, someone has to do it :p Feb 16 15:12:31 do what? Feb 16 15:12:36 arjan, lbt_: so, the basic reasoning behind it is for architectural and process based things, OBS, to allow imager and QA stuff to work, and work easily? Feb 16 15:13:07 Or, Nokia decided to drop maemo and move it's applications to Moblin Foundation. Feb 16 15:13:08 w00t: and basically they're a package, and you need to pick one package. Feb 16 15:13:23 "but we can make the deb version work! I can do it for free!" (<= expected reply) Feb 16 15:13:27 arjan: define 'they're' for me in that sentance -- trying to come to grips with all of it Feb 16 15:13:29 Which, imo, is the long and the short of it Feb 16 15:13:41 w00t: you have to choose a toolset for your distribution Feb 16 15:13:52 w00t: the package format, the tools, the process, the people behind it, are all one package Feb 16 15:14:03 w00t: builder, qa, imager, is very integrated, and moblin's was built around rpm technology :P Feb 16 15:14:07 w00t: you can't chose and pick individual pieces, it just does not work that way Feb 16 15:14:11 Stskeeps: right, but i'm trying to rationalise that choice into something that we can give people Feb 16 15:14:11 right, I guess a lot of this is about people resources and money Feb 16 15:14:14 Stskeeps: right, thanks, that's what I was after Feb 16 15:14:46 "intel pays these people to maintain it. Unless you have $5M/year, try again" ;-) Feb 16 15:15:01 w00t: and i'm willing to go on record and say maemo's 'package' is not that nice to receive (scratchbox, sbdmock, autobuilder, no real qa, no imager) Feb 16 15:15:17 villemv: also "if you think you can finish it before march 2010, go wild" Feb 16 15:15:24 :-) Feb 16 15:15:28 Stskeeps: I think the whole of maemo has heard your love for it by now Feb 16 15:15:34 w00t: i really hope they have. Feb 16 15:15:38 okay Feb 16 15:15:39 arjan: So 2.2 will be released as MeeGo 1.0 then ?? Feb 16 15:15:45 slaine_: yes Feb 16 15:15:45 I'm going to work this into something digestible Feb 16 15:15:48 and send it to the mailing list Feb 16 15:15:51 And it won't be delayed ? Feb 16 15:15:57 (just for everyone's peace of mind) Feb 16 15:15:58 slaine_: not "as"; there's actually various maemo pieces in it Feb 16 15:16:09 We're still looking at April'ish release ? Feb 16 15:16:10 slaine_: it might be a few weeks later to get more maemo pieces in Feb 16 15:16:25 arjan: I'd appreciate it if you could proof this before I send it to make sure I'm not saying something totally stupid Feb 16 15:16:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi-go -> meego mascot proposal Feb 16 15:16:33 and get the QT theme polished to be more inline ??? Feb 16 15:16:40 slaine_: yup Feb 16 15:16:46 awesome Feb 16 15:16:52 can we adapt the convention that it's qt or Qt? :P Feb 16 15:17:01 Qt, goddammit Feb 16 15:17:03 wazd: Aww, it's so cute! :D Feb 16 15:17:04 not qt, not QT Feb 16 15:17:11 * w00t gets the pitchfork Feb 16 15:17:18 lol, we're off again Feb 16 15:17:19 this is my RPM vs DEB I'll have you know Feb 16 15:17:19 iTs Qt Feb 16 15:17:57 okay, have a nice time... if you approve my message to meego-dev list the is fine, if you don't that is also fine ;-) Feb 16 15:20:04 arjan: Do we know waht pieces will be in there ? Feb 16 15:20:37 w00t: can i ask for a link to the list archive for the message after you've sent it? =) Feb 16 15:20:49 Terminus-: you certainly can, though I'll have to try find it myself Feb 16 15:21:40 is there a list archive? Feb 16 15:21:51 yep Feb 16 15:21:57 Stskeeps: yep. i've been reading it since i joined this channel. Feb 16 15:21:59 I started to write an application for maemo on the N900. So I read a lot about hildon. Now I read the next version will be based on qt. Am I right that I should better use qt then to continue? All the tutorials I used so far were based on gtk. Feb 16 15:22:07 Stskeeps: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/thread.html Feb 16 15:22:12 Terminus-: oh, nice Feb 16 15:22:13 the list software is mailman actually Feb 16 15:22:15 wizkoder: yes Feb 16 15:22:29 w00t: thanks. just the thread you're replying to should be enough for me to find it. =) Feb 16 15:23:25 wizkoder: You should've used Qt from the start, really, however Meego and Maemo will both be able to run your software just fine :) Feb 16 15:23:30 on a sidenote, is there a policy for trademark usage yet? Feb 16 15:23:31 see! Nokians voting for Ipkg/Opkg. *goes to vote his own brainstorm solution* Feb 16 15:23:31 wizkoder: It's all x11 :) Feb 16 15:24:14 i'm thinking the whole deb vs rpm thing is actually an apt vs yum thing. Feb 16 15:24:18 javispedro: you scared him off :-( Feb 16 15:24:23 Terminus-: yes, it is Feb 16 15:24:41 and that's utterly retarded for various reasons that aren't worth persuing right now Feb 16 15:25:52 i do like apt as a front end better than yum. Feb 16 15:26:01 sigh Feb 16 15:26:22 but what i like doesn't count here. =P Feb 16 15:26:23 And I like turtles! Feb 16 15:26:45 hey, I like apt better than yum, zygote zypper or whatever is called, and better than ms. pacman! Feb 16 15:26:47 It's not that it doesn't count, it's just a pointless discussion Feb 16 15:26:57 but I have no technical reasons at all for that (other than "being used to it") so I shut up! Feb 16 15:27:20 people should look at process instead and tools offered to manage the distro Feb 16 15:27:20 point taken. Feb 16 15:27:48 Terminus-: Just create an alias then ;) Feb 16 15:28:10 If people keep complaining, I'll write a wrapper :) Feb 16 15:28:19 Terminus-: yum install apt Feb 16 15:28:24 just release it as EasyApt Feb 16 15:28:28 ElPollo: i was about to say that. =P Feb 16 15:28:34 ;) Feb 16 15:28:47 catch you all tomorrow, I've to head a little early today Feb 16 15:39:33 frals: :-) Feb 16 15:42:44 Maemo 6 UI framework video.. In FULL HD of course ;) Feb 16 15:43:53 X-Fade: Hmm? :) Feb 16 15:44:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Jk0FETBB4 Feb 16 15:44:29 Sorry for the teaser ;) Feb 16 15:44:54 X-Fade: s/Maemo 6/MeeGo/, remember Feb 16 15:45:17 w00t: I should have said Harmattan UI Framawork ;) Feb 16 15:45:36 FraMeeGoWork Feb 16 15:45:47 MeGoWorkOnFrameWork Feb 16 15:45:52 the jokes are endless Feb 16 15:47:20 Meh, you didn't adopt AVKON as the next generation UI framework? ;) Feb 16 15:47:22 * vmlemon_ hides Feb 16 15:48:52 vmlemon_: you better hide Feb 16 15:51:08 so, it's clear that sbox and sbox-like things are a goner and meego is using obs for arm builds? Feb 16 15:51:45 i hope so, else i'm rebooting Mer Feb 16 15:51:46 :P Feb 16 15:52:11 javispedro: For building apps for the repos, probably yes. But for developers building the apps themselves, I guess sbox type things will remain Feb 16 15:52:48 aha, interesting. Feb 16 15:52:50 milliams: obs has local build too, which is sbox-like, except it doesn't make you insane Feb 16 15:53:04 yeah but it seems to cost a bit more to setup. Feb 16 15:53:39 Stskeeps: I know, but it's not really suitable for the application development _process_. Feb 16 15:53:52 (btw. I package apps for opensuse with the OBS) Feb 16 15:54:15 milliams: right, anyway, chances are that people will be basing on qt builds, which cross-compile very happily :P Feb 16 15:54:23 * w00t hugs qt Feb 16 15:54:29 oh crap, Qt* Feb 16 15:54:37 stupid sticky shift key Feb 16 15:54:39 * VDVsx smiles at Package Management Wager at meego-devel :D Feb 16 15:54:54 VDVsx: It's funny isn't it :) Feb 16 15:55:17 milliams, yeah, but should be hard to reclaim, bahh Feb 16 15:55:18 VDVsx: i think w00t might win those 100$ Feb 16 15:55:46 Stskeeps, really ? not easy IMO :P Feb 16 15:56:29 bricbats Feb 16 15:57:00 VDVsx: I'm trying, hard. Feb 16 15:57:13 :) Feb 16 15:57:44 VDVsx: we just went through a discussion here before you came and the thing is really that all moblin tools, builder, qa, image building, etc, is centered around RPM and it's a organisation, process and tools that exists already, is integrated and tested. If we were to compare this to maemo.org, we'd end up with our half-assed solutions or nokia-only solutions. Feb 16 15:58:04 maemo.org/maemo Feb 16 15:58:55 if the whole debian infrastructure for this was to be adapted, it would be insane and not possible to change around easily - and most of it is quite tied to debian.org :P Feb 16 15:59:12 Stskeeps, that's good, so will be harder to reclaim the bet :D Feb 16 15:59:53 VDVsx: i think it's a even better choice by now, because it's a choice between spending ages developing new tools, or choosing current state of the art methods that does not have legacy Feb 16 16:00:54 Stskeeps, milliams: one more data point: we're working on a Qt Creator plugin giving "publish to OBS" in your app development workflow Feb 16 16:01:04 wstephenson: excellent Feb 16 16:01:37 Stskeeps: be prepared for a lot of 'hello world' apps in garage.meego.org ;) Feb 16 16:01:40 Stskeeps, well, I can't evaluate to much because I don't know the tools, my only complains are from a selfish POV, because I know how-to do .deb and don't know .rpm :) Feb 16 16:02:28 * javispedro ponders autotools. On one side we have the fact that autotools-based projects are easier to package (seems), on the other side, they are harder to crossbuild. Feb 16 16:02:29 wstephenson: that is actually great news Feb 16 16:02:35 really, really great news Feb 16 16:02:41 * w00t hearts Qt creator Feb 16 16:04:42 javispedro, that's like any other 'gnu' tool, very powerful but with a big learning curve :) Feb 16 16:05:47 oh the irony of an IRC client for emacs exiting after that Feb 16 16:06:04 ;P Feb 16 16:06:13 javispedro: I don't think the cross-building shuold be a problem with the OBS Feb 16 16:06:32 yep, but it is with MADDE and related stuff... Feb 16 16:06:47 as Sts put, "Qt Creator projects are easier to crossbuild". Feb 16 16:06:53 javispedro: yay, next flame topic! /me dances round the ring holding a Round One sign, wearing a CMake-branded swimsuit. Feb 16 16:07:10 wstephenson: autotools vs nothing? :) Feb 16 16:07:21 javispedro: what makes you think an autotools project is hard to cross-build? Feb 16 16:07:24 cmake vs qmake vs autotools Feb 16 16:07:41 wstephenson: Oh, that's an obvious and much more general one ;) Feb 16 16:07:44 let's make the users compile their own programs manually Feb 16 16:07:54 * javispedro hides Feb 16 16:07:57 CMake branded swimsuit... that sounds kinda cute, really ;) Feb 16 16:07:59 lollll Feb 16 16:07:59 either way, I already decided for autotools. Feb 16 16:08:00 autotools are generally very good at cross-compiling Feb 16 16:08:06 hope its a bikini Feb 16 16:08:10 jolly good, let's do that :) Feb 16 16:08:21 Who mentioned autotools here? Feb 16 16:08:28 ATTACK!!! =) Feb 16 16:08:36 leinir: actually i think this merger is like the Supreme Commander of project merges. there are so many different levels to fight on! =) Feb 16 16:08:54 wstephenson: Yeah! It's spectacular :) Feb 16 16:09:09 bpeel: Autotools are absolutely terrible for crosscompiling because they make build process too complicated and complicate its debugging Feb 16 16:09:14 robsta, bpeel: see the average madde project. it's just a makefile (generated and all that). you can build it with a plain crosscompiler and a cross built clib. that's about it. configure requires a much more complete environment Feb 16 16:09:56 ... to run. Feb 16 16:10:42 of course, the magic ends when you start requiring libraries other than Qt. Feb 16 16:10:51 javispedro: noone probably noticed, but http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=528791&postcount=425 Feb 16 16:11:26 Stskeeps: :D Woooh! Feb 16 16:11:27 Stskeeps: ah, nice. ta! Feb 16 16:11:38 javispedro: i'm still getting a blank page, but it should happen any time now. Feb 16 16:11:48 Stskeeps: I'm getting a login page... Feb 16 16:11:55 javispedro: you obviously need a sane environment to link against, that's what configure checks for Feb 16 16:12:08 Stskeeps: ah no, here comes the blank page (after login) Feb 16 16:12:21 javispedro: think you need to ask for access or something silly Feb 16 16:13:25 * arjan gets to the office despite the best efforts of traffic Feb 16 16:16:17 arjan: one of these intel cubicles that i once saw in a video? Feb 16 16:16:47 mine is about half a foot smaller Feb 16 16:16:49 but otherwise yes Feb 16 16:16:53 (smaller as less high) Feb 16 16:18:38 X-Fade: hello? are you online? Feb 16 16:19:31 javispedro: but then again, what is there that Qt does not provide? Feb 16 16:19:33 mlfoster: Always. Feb 16 16:19:40 mlfoster: Well, almost ;) Feb 16 16:20:02 X-Fade: meet Margie, Margie meet X-Fade Feb 16 16:20:06 there, introductions done ;-) Feb 16 16:20:15 arjan: Thanks ;) Feb 16 16:20:24 X-Fade: I am part of the web team here at Intel that put together meego.com. I understand that you work on the maemo website? Feb 16 16:20:48 I'd love to figure out how to work together going forward. Feb 16 16:20:54 is the qtcreator offered at the meego website different to the one I can install out of my kubuntu package manager? Feb 16 16:20:54 th0br0: dunno, does Qt have a builtin libtoaster? :) Feb 16 16:21:00 mlfoster: Yes, I'm basically responsible for running the maemo.org web services. Feb 16 16:21:23 javispedro, is madde the (currently?) closed source qmake cross compiler? Feb 16 16:21:47 X-Fade: and maemo.org is very impressive--you have a lot of great information there Feb 16 16:21:50 libtoaster, javispedro? Feb 16 16:22:12 wizkoder: probably, the vanilla one doesn't have QML Feb 16 16:22:13 th0br0: just being ironic, should have said "libkitchensink". Feb 16 16:22:15 mlfoster: It has been a few years in the making, so it has gathered a lot ;) Feb 16 16:22:18 X-Fade: where are you, geographically? Feb 16 16:22:23 ok javispedro :P Feb 16 16:22:27 mlfoster: NL. Feb 16 16:22:32 will meego support Java ME ? Feb 16 16:22:47 jku_: http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE Feb 16 16:22:48 mlfoster: Representing the CET timezone. Feb 16 16:22:51 X-Fade: I am in Oregon. Feb 16 16:23:01 javispedro: libkitchensink was the name of a Qt based PIM syncing plugin for KDE's kontact, now obsolete. Feb 16 16:23:10 X-Fade: I sit just a few aisles away from Arjan. Feb 16 16:23:34 wstephenson: and libtoaster was the proposed name of some gnome cd recording library -- It's hard to come up with a name these days Feb 16 16:24:39 javispedro, yeah that's it Feb 16 16:24:41 mlfoster: I don't sit at Nokia though, I work from home. Which is quite nice. Feb 16 16:24:57 Hi all, Any news about when the Qt toolkit will come? Feb 16 16:25:05 X-Fade: contractor? Feb 16 16:25:23 MisterN: Liberated community member ;) Feb 16 16:26:02 X-Fade: nice! How would you recommend I get familiar with maemo.org? Any logical order? Or just dive in? :-) Feb 16 16:26:02 X-Fade: whatever that means :) Feb 16 16:26:15 wstephenson: so much new stuff today :-) qml? do I need that? A new programming language? Feb 16 16:26:34 MisterN: Started out as community member, Nokia wanted me to do that full time. Feb 16 16:26:37 mlfoster: i hope you guys are busy making content ready for meego.org. cause that's what's lacking there :P Feb 16 16:26:42 X-Fade: nice. Feb 16 16:26:57 mlfoster: Depends on what you are looking for. Feb 16 16:26:58 MisterN: we are well aware of that! Feb 16 16:27:36 I'm looking for a release date of the tookit :) Feb 16 16:27:41 lol Feb 16 16:27:44 X-Fade also has a role of managing the rest of us maemo.org *masters a bit too Feb 16 16:28:26 does he use whips? Feb 16 16:28:42 w00t: I usually offer beer, works better. Feb 16 16:28:54 good point Feb 16 16:29:02 X-Fade: my "real" job is localization, so I am very interested in that. However, I want to see how you handle downloads, releases, community,and projects. Feb 16 16:29:12 for anyone interested not on meego-dev: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000129.html Feb 16 16:29:13 carrot before stick ;) Feb 16 16:31:10 * w00t dons the flameproof underwear necessary from wading into that subject Feb 16 16:31:54 arjan: oh you apparently wrote the architecture page - but it doesn't directly mention some important facts like X11 usage :) Feb 16 16:32:33 I'm sure I saw a page explicitly saying X11 Feb 16 16:32:42 ah, it's the hardware enabling one Feb 16 16:33:51 MisterN: we had to dumb the diagram down a little to get it past the marketroids Feb 16 16:34:40 I can't imagine anyone who understands what X11 is to think meego would be using something else though... Feb 16 16:35:06 with maemo.org we kinda controlled the website, what's the idea here and how much community influence is intended? Feb 16 16:35:09 arjan: meh. boxes saying "Visual Services" are completely pointless :P Feb 16 16:35:21 w00t: you typoed "some Feb 16 16:35:21 MisterN: no kidding. Feb 16 16:35:23 elements within this chain do not work with RPM" Feb 16 16:35:27 you meant DEP Feb 16 16:35:29 DEB Feb 16 16:35:38 Stskeeps: now that the thing is launched 'we' took control back from marketing ;) Feb 16 16:35:39 buxy: bah, at least the meaning is clear Feb 16 16:35:58 buxy: you'd have thought with three proofreaders, including myself, someone would have spotted it! Feb 16 16:36:06 it's afternoon Feb 16 16:36:07 :P Feb 16 16:36:13 Stskeeps: psh Feb 16 16:36:21 * w00t blames you Feb 16 16:36:23 apparently this room has soon be occupied by maemo people. =P Feb 16 16:36:33 s/be/been Feb 16 16:36:33 BBNS: first to claim new land Feb 16 16:36:34 :P Feb 16 16:36:50 Stskeeps: that's smart! Feb 16 16:36:54 already is occupied my Maemo people :) Feb 16 16:37:30 and general irc jackals (like myself) Feb 16 16:38:13 still not get used to pronounce 'MeeGo'. Feb 16 16:38:33 w00t: nice mail Feb 16 16:39:43 btw, when is the first TSG meeting, and where? :P Feb 16 16:40:24 w00t: I thought you fxed that Feb 16 16:41:51 lbt_: did you point it out? if you did, I was too distracted to notice Feb 16 16:42:07 too much happening around me right now.. just had a server go splat and take down everything with it Feb 16 16:42:59 w00t: maybe not - I was having at least 4 parallal conversations and 2 parallel jobs Feb 16 16:43:12 concurrent Feb 16 16:43:19 time sliced Feb 16 16:43:35 lbt_: *nod* Feb 16 16:43:38 multitasking is a bitch Feb 16 16:43:51 * lbt_ considers a gender change Feb 16 16:44:56 ^ Feb 16 16:44:59 I'm up for it Feb 16 16:53:10 * aseigo wanders in fo the morning Feb 16 16:53:30 aseigo: good morning Feb 16 16:54:04 milliams: moin moin :) Feb 16 16:54:42 'lo :) Feb 16 17:10:12 ok, who is on here from Maemo.org wondering what the hell is going on and thinking they made a poor choice buying a N900? Feb 16 17:10:39 i'm here by curiosity only Feb 16 17:11:05 i made an excellent choice buying a n900 and don't regret it one bit Feb 16 17:11:06 jackthe: you did not make a bad choice. Feb 16 17:11:35 jackthe: you have a device where you don't rely on vendor updates. Feb 16 17:11:46 just like you can put ubuntu or windows 3.11 on your PC. Feb 16 17:12:06 jackthe: me Feb 16 17:12:13 uhsf: i regret it Feb 16 17:12:24 Lantizia: feel free to mail me a n900 Feb 16 17:12:24 :P Feb 16 17:12:37 the n900 is the best phone ever and it's impossible any upcoming phone will represent such a huge leap in mobile device innovation in at least the next few years Feb 16 17:12:39 Stskeeps: sif you dont have plenty of devices! ;) Feb 16 17:12:50 Stskeeps: It'll cost you! I KEEP TELLING YOU :P Feb 16 17:13:16 frals: what, just a zoom2, q5, two dead 770's, one half-dead n800, n800, n810, n900 Feb 16 17:13:19 :P Feb 16 17:13:22 oh, and a joggler Feb 16 17:13:24 buying the device that makes the biggest improvement leap means the best choice for buying tech items Feb 16 17:13:27 I like the N900, I just want it to keep on being updated Feb 16 17:13:29 considering what ive gotten back from using my n900 id say its the best 600€ ever ;> Feb 16 17:13:39 I don't want to buy another phone in 6 months! Feb 16 17:13:41 jackthe: I still can't get confirmation maemo6 is still coming Feb 16 17:13:59 I don't know if the next major version is meego... or meego 1 and maemo 6 Feb 16 17:14:06 Lanrizia: Yeah, who knows if Maemo 6 is coming at all Feb 16 17:14:13 I think I should set up a site I-will-take-your-n900-off-your-hands.com Feb 16 17:14:16 nokia I suppose Feb 16 17:14:24 someone in #maemo says it is - but can't say why Feb 16 17:14:27 jackthe, dont underestimate the community. you'll get enough choice for your n900 Feb 16 17:14:28 I'll pay $15 plus S&H Feb 16 17:14:30 MeeBay(TM) Feb 16 17:14:38 dirkhh: only got it 2 weeks ago!! Feb 16 17:14:45 stalk qgil's posts on talk.maemo.org and you'll be wiser Feb 16 17:14:51 vmlemon_: great choice Feb 16 17:14:53 mikhas: will one of the choices be a small black house brick? Feb 16 17:15:02 jackthe: I'm STILL waiting for mine Feb 16 17:15:35 dirkhh: the advantage of having a corp account I guess ;) Feb 16 17:15:48 Lantizia, if you insist on that choice ... Feb 16 17:16:03 jackthe: we got something like 30 of them... by the time I got to the box it was empty Feb 16 17:16:11 allegedly more are coming :) Feb 16 17:16:35 dirkhh: the quick or the dead eh? Feb 16 17:17:04 dirkhh: so people in your office will rebel if megoo doesn't come to n900 obviously ;) Feb 16 17:17:30 Stskeeps: I am not making any predictions on this subject... Feb 16 17:17:44 dirkhh: yeah - probably wise Feb 16 17:17:46 at the end of the day Nokia needs to make some of the proprietary bits available, correct? Feb 16 17:18:00 Stskeeps: I will rebel! ..... well, write some strongly worded blogs. Feb 16 17:18:03 dirkhh: nokia has stated at some point they don't mind nokia bits on nokia devices, so that helps things Feb 16 17:18:20 we will put MeeGo (the open source project part) on the N900 in no time Feb 16 17:18:42 but from there to a working phone... that may require some more work Feb 16 17:18:43 Non-Nokia bits on Nokia devices? Or Nokia bits on non-Nokia devices? (Just for clarification) Feb 16 17:18:50 nokia bits on nokia devices Feb 16 17:18:54 Aah Feb 16 17:19:02 and if you need any assistance, i'm available, am hacking OS'es on to N900 for a living. Feb 16 17:19:36 and will probably jump on meego code the moment it comes out :) Feb 16 17:19:46 I have an internal bet going with one of the key MeeGo build architects how quickly he can get it up and running on the N900 Feb 16 17:20:01 and trust me, we won't hide the result :-) Feb 16 17:20:25 it can't be that hard, surely Feb 16 17:20:33 * w00t hides from Stskeeps Feb 16 17:20:41 w00t: unless they suddenly discover this thing called watchdogs and BME Feb 16 17:20:45 and break down crying, obviously. Feb 16 17:20:47 so dirkhh, you expect full meego stack openly available for n900? Feb 16 17:20:58 abend, dirkhh Feb 16 17:21:02 (to the extent possible Feb 16 17:22:41 lcuk: now now, that would be telling Feb 16 17:22:52 lcuk: I expect that we will do our part Feb 16 17:22:52 Stskeeps: mer solved BME/watchdog problem though, really Feb 16 17:23:08 I will call on the experts here to help us. Feb 16 17:23:12 w00t: only in dualboot. Feb 16 17:23:12 Stskeeps: you're on Feb 16 17:24:18 dirkhh: will definately be interested and can assist with community-vs-nokia internal as well (it's my job to help with these kind of things :P) Feb 16 17:24:29 so, does MeeGo come with MMS? Feb 16 17:24:43 dirkhh, well we look forward to seeing the fruits of hard labour. btw, you should open the bet to others, i would put money on stskeeps ;) Feb 16 17:25:43 10 bugs on Stskeeps! :-) Feb 16 17:25:49 hmm, so much people in here Feb 16 17:26:07 do you really like the new brand MeeGo? from my point it's terrible name Feb 16 17:26:33 Maemo is a good name, Moblin is a good name, but MeeGo? What the hell it stands for? Feb 16 17:27:03 sh0gun: think about it this way. You put lawyers and branding people of 2 companies in a room to get a name. Feb 16 17:27:04 It stands for wet spots in marketing people's pants ;) Feb 16 17:27:12 sh0gun: good luck getting out ANYTHING. Feb 16 17:27:29 I see Feb 16 17:27:39 sh0gun: let me phrase it this way... this was by far the best of the names that had been proposed Feb 16 17:27:44 sh0gun: mee go party! Feb 16 17:27:53 but it doesn't change the fact that the name itself is terrible :) Feb 16 17:27:54 hmm Feb 16 17:28:04 I don't mind it really Feb 16 17:28:09 it opens things up for lots of fun jokes Feb 16 17:28:14 like meegofindabettername Feb 16 17:28:15 It's just a name after all... Feb 16 17:28:17 I'm sure the other names are "intellectual property" (and I use that term lightly) of the agency, or I'd quote some Feb 16 17:28:30 mi-go :) Feb 16 17:28:39 "We need a name, fast... I know, we'll raid Intel's junk drawers for a trademark that they never wanted to use, that they secretly hate the sound of, and we'll use it!" Feb 16 17:28:52 meegowii Feb 16 17:28:59 meego get coffee Feb 16 17:29:16 don't I wish, vmlemon_ Feb 16 17:29:25 in that case we would have own all the domains Feb 16 17:29:43 with MeeGo it turns out that the '.org' was taken by someone in China Feb 16 17:29:45 Still, at least it isn't Bada ;) Feb 16 17:29:49 hi all. i got a n900 does this mean no updates and a useless os in a few months with no apps Feb 16 17:29:52 I weep for the English language Feb 16 17:29:53 which is why we're on a '.com' Feb 16 17:29:59 daveyp: no. Feb 16 17:30:21 so what will it mean for maemo users Feb 16 17:30:34 dirkhh: as i was saying yesterday, meego is probably a kind of noodle in .cn Feb 16 17:30:54 daveyp, yes. you can sell your n900 to dirkhh, for $15. It's the best price you could get for a brick like that. Feb 16 17:31:04 daveyp: seems like the community will try to get something out but no promises Feb 16 17:31:04 lol Feb 16 17:31:07 daveyp: it continues to recieve updates from nokia for the foreseeable future Feb 16 17:31:14 the .com was taken by someone else as well, unless intel have had the brand for years... Feb 16 17:31:19 hehe.... but everyone thinks about maemo like about mature OS which is long time on the market, also names maemo 5, maemo 6 prove it with numbering.... but now it's just meego, starting from nothing :) Feb 16 17:31:30 I just installed the latest update a few minutes ago Feb 16 17:31:34 and dirkhh is going be rich very soonm Feb 16 17:31:38 meego sounds nice Feb 16 17:32:34 daveyp: are you taking the p***? Feb 16 17:32:44 no Feb 16 17:32:48 y Feb 16 17:32:50 LOL Feb 16 17:33:04 hello, is there actually some kind of svn or nightly build image available of meego at this time ? Feb 16 17:33:28 i just think why bring out maemo then to just stop and make meego instead Feb 16 17:33:29 daveyp: you seem to be the only one who likes the name, apart from the marketing guys Feb 16 17:33:48 whats wrong with maemo? Feb 16 17:34:02 moblin was better, jsut stick to that :) Feb 16 17:34:12 maemo and moblin were better Feb 16 17:34:16 both Feb 16 17:34:16 daveyp: you said meego Feb 16 17:34:17 :) Feb 16 17:34:36 anyways, I am coming from moblin, so what's the deal with maemo, what is it supposed to bring to moblin ? Feb 16 17:34:39 I always loved the name.... such a cool names, much better than android Feb 16 17:34:46 meego seems commercial Feb 16 17:34:46 votan, apps Feb 16 17:34:47 na meamo Feb 16 17:34:58 votan: an actual user community Feb 16 17:35:09 hordes of qt developers ... Feb 16 17:35:11 if it isn't chased away before long Feb 16 17:35:25 so whats going to be the main diffrences Feb 16 17:35:26 mh I see, apps like in Adobe Air kind of apps ? Feb 16 17:35:53 sounds like moblin is heading down the road that jolicloud is aiming for Feb 16 17:35:55 actual software, not cpuloading adobe garbage Feb 16 17:35:59 errr, MeeGo I mean Feb 16 17:36:07 can you really improve on maemo Feb 16 17:36:17 yeah, that kind of apps, quantity over quality =) Feb 16 17:36:42 what is the Moblin OS based on? Feb 16 17:36:51 any distro? Feb 16 17:36:59 sh0gun: it's its own distro Feb 16 17:37:04 pretty muhc like maemo has become Feb 16 17:37:07 I see, so, is there some kind of nightly build of a iso with th merged projects ? I've noticed a screenshot of the moblin "desktop" on the new website Feb 16 17:37:07 what next apple and microsoft lol Feb 16 17:37:27 sh0gun with some roots in mandriva. Feb 16 17:37:32 maemo is based on debian huh Feb 16 17:37:48 so is iphone right Feb 16 17:37:49 rx_: originally. but look at where it is now Feb 16 17:37:50 roots in mandriva explains rpm Feb 16 17:38:04 votan: couple weeks for sources, kernel if your hardware vendor is feeling benevolent Feb 16 17:38:07 My internet connection is really bad. Is there a way to download the qt-sdk-x86-opensource-2010.bin via bittorrent? Feb 16 17:38:08 moblin was ubutnu/debian based pre2.0 then changed to mandriva Feb 16 17:38:12 rx_: compare maemo to current debian unstable... and compare how different it is Feb 16 17:38:17 votan: that's just not correct Feb 16 17:38:24 why not ? Feb 16 17:38:35 a bad inet connection and you think a torrent will help you out? Feb 16 17:38:38 moblin used to be ubuntu based, and then we decided to start from basics. We borrowed some stuff from fedora and opensuse Feb 16 17:38:41 but not mandriva ;) Feb 16 17:38:42 lol Feb 16 17:38:42 it is afaik and as far as the mailinglists go Feb 16 17:38:47 direct link Feb 16 17:38:50 mh Feb 16 17:39:06 pretty sure i saw some mandriva references going on in the mailinglists Feb 16 17:39:06 votan: it's not because Arjan works on the Moblin distro, and thus knows more about it Feb 16 17:39:07 votan: since I did a lot of the actual work on that part of moblin I can tell you it's 100% fiction Feb 16 17:39:16 mh k Feb 16 17:39:32 anyways, I hoped u guys would stick to ubuntu for the sake of the available packages :) Feb 16 17:39:35 haha Feb 16 17:39:45 building on top of ubuntu did not work well at all for us Feb 16 17:39:48 for the things we wanted to do Feb 16 17:40:08 heh, talk about a lesson we learned the hard way with Mer too Feb 16 17:40:08 i like ubuntu just nothing works with it lol Feb 16 17:40:19 the main dealbreaker for me was the lack of vpn solutions after 2.0 As I was unable to use the distro on several netbooks at my university Feb 16 17:40:32 never got vpnc/vpn-client to run Feb 16 17:41:07 Stskeeps, a small summary mabye on why ubuntu is bad for that? Feb 16 17:41:09 quick q will n97 be able to run meego Feb 16 17:41:22 daveyp: probably not. Feb 16 17:41:38 y not Feb 16 17:41:41 votan: connman is getting vpn support for the meego 1.0 release Feb 16 17:41:48 mikhas: no matter how you shape it, ubuntu needs a lot of beating to be suitable for mobile device Feb 16 17:41:48 daveyp: it's somewhat more limited in hardware than n900 - and it's not running a linux kernel. someone would have to hack linux onto the device. Feb 16 17:41:49 it can run andriod and meamo Feb 16 17:41:51 s Feb 16 17:41:58 yeah, I was told so that it would work for 2.2+ after filing the bug report on it Feb 16 17:41:58 along with the constant architecture changes and ARM version choices.. Feb 16 17:42:03 daveyp: oops - I may have been thinking of another phone Feb 16 17:42:07 ubuntu surely deserves a good beating, no matter what Feb 16 17:42:17 anyways, really looking forward to get back to moblin, really liked it Feb 16 17:42:31 i like that there's a base that has -goal- of being for mobile devices as well Feb 16 17:42:32 yeah we have 30 computer on it at work Feb 16 17:42:39 and servers too Feb 16 17:42:47 votan: glad you liked it Feb 16 17:42:52 and it was all free Feb 16 17:42:52 daveyp: I've not seen a report that maemo 5 works on the n97 - url? Feb 16 17:43:11 na n900 Feb 16 17:43:25 I just hope u guys down really go for the iPhone approach that u have to install a billion apps :/ Feb 16 17:43:41 "don't"? Feb 16 17:43:42 yeah i have all the apps man to many apps Feb 16 17:43:42 daveyp: do you mean will it run on the n900? Feb 16 17:43:52 err Feb 16 17:43:54 yeh, dont! Feb 16 17:43:56 yeah you confused me Feb 16 17:44:00 hiii Feb 16 17:44:03 sry aboutt hat :9 Feb 16 17:44:15 meego.. what's a Hulan's shit name... Feb 16 17:44:18 daveyp: the n900 will probably run meego - there are people working on a port right now. Feb 16 17:44:29 cool Feb 16 17:44:37 and n97 rum maemo?? Feb 16 17:44:42 daveyp: if it will become the default operating system is a whole nother question. Feb 16 17:44:52 daveyp: see the answer above a few lines Feb 16 17:45:09 daveyp: N97 is symbian Feb 16 17:45:17 yeah Feb 16 17:45:17 will there be a meego UI that works on devices with 240x320 screen? Feb 16 17:45:25 ptl: btw, I do remember you. Feb 16 17:45:36 ptl: I didn't work for Conectiva, but I do remember talking to you. Feb 16 17:45:38 this spun me out I've not seen a report that maemo 5 works on the n97 - url? Feb 16 17:45:50 daveyp: it's unlikely Feb 16 17:45:56 N97 is an ARM11 processor Feb 16 17:46:00 the N900 is ARMv6 Feb 16 17:46:14 thanks Feb 16 17:46:36 votan, in the sense of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk6F2V144Hc you probably dont need an app for everything. what we want is *useful* apps, I guess. not apps for an super-artifically created demand Feb 16 17:47:19 http://meego.com/devices/netbook <--- the picture there, is that an actualy built of meego 1.0, or a moblin desktop with another wallpaper and a photoshopped Home Area to fit the new Design Ideas ? :) Feb 16 17:47:28 so what phones you guys got then?? Feb 16 17:47:32 thiago: ARM11 is an ARMv6 Feb 16 17:47:37 damien_l: uh... Feb 16 17:47:59 damien_l: well, I know the N97 processor is a bit behind the N900 one Feb 16 17:48:12 will meego run on the freerunner? ;) Feb 16 17:48:31 mikhas sounds great, if people now stick to that idea and down jump on the iFail-ship because it is trendy and might attract a broader audience I am all for it :) Feb 16 17:48:33 daveyp: there are 353 people in the channel. Do you want that many answers? Feb 16 17:48:48 lol Feb 16 17:48:59 votan: that's what the trunk build sitting in front of me looks like now Feb 16 17:49:00 na just the guys at the top Feb 16 17:49:11 although with a slightly different toolbar Feb 16 17:49:16 nedrichards who do I have to sleep with to get a trunk build ? :> Feb 16 17:49:29 meego looks nice for netbook i got kubuntu at the mo Feb 16 17:49:38 not liking it Feb 16 17:49:39 votan: depend on your gender Feb 16 17:50:50 damien_l U mean, if I am a slick woman, I can choose, and if I am a regular guy, I've to wait until there's a public alpha/beta/rc ? Feb 16 17:51:19 hah Feb 16 17:51:37 hi all, I know, probably lot of people asked it before,I am sorry if I am asking same question again, but will be meebo ported to n900? Thanks in advance! Feb 16 17:51:41 that or they have a few female developers who could do with some lovin if you're a guy Feb 16 17:51:54 yeah maby Feb 16 17:52:08 and its meego Feb 16 17:52:12 aaaa: noone knows but it seems unlikely there won't be a port of some form. who it's from, no idea. Feb 16 17:52:31 votan: I think in either case it's a 'not yet' unless you want to compile it all yourself Feb 16 17:52:40 we still need a fair bit of polish yet Feb 16 17:52:41 speed devil just said Feb 16 17:52:41 nid0 Well, I during the 5 yrs I've spent at university up until now, the only female developper I've encountered that was interested in *nix systems wasnt quite the one u'd sleep with ;) Feb 16 17:53:09 aaaa: keep in mind your n900 is a open device. Feb 16 17:53:16 nedrichards well compiling it shouldnt be a problem, if there arent too many hickups that u'd need some serious background knowldge tog et past. Feb 16 17:53:21 aaaa: it isn't locked to software vendors like an iphone is. Feb 16 17:53:31 seriousy background knowledge in terms of maemo/moblin fusion Feb 16 17:53:36 you can have andriod Feb 16 17:53:48 guess it depends who you know, I happen to (indirectly) know one who works on the Symbian bluetooth stack who's pretty nice ;) Feb 16 17:53:50 I just hope, community will not forget to n900 Feb 16 17:54:04 same here Feb 16 17:54:11 aaaa: unless they give us 300 meego devices at MeeGo 2 Hawaii, then probably not Feb 16 17:54:15 the community is too vast for that. Feb 16 17:54:24 or the faulty n97 replaced with the mini Feb 16 17:55:12 yeah, maybe I am just unlucky, on the other hand, there arent that many woeman choosing my subject of study Feb 16 17:55:41 im a gynecologist Feb 16 17:56:00 maybe I will wait for one more week with buying n900. maybe there will be some information Feb 16 17:56:11 dont buy 1 Feb 16 17:56:12 aaaa: i love my n900 already with this OS Feb 16 17:56:19 sicne that, I have to suffer with windows mobile Feb 16 17:56:34 mh, why do u guys tinker that much on ur phone ? I mean, I am all for geekish-stuff, but the phone ? I like my Android phone the way it is Feb 16 17:57:00 my phone is cosmo proof :) Feb 16 17:57:10 :) Feb 16 17:57:28 there is a dent in my door frame from when i threw it Feb 16 17:57:47 http://black-flag.co.uk/files/k800i-thrown2.jpg Feb 16 17:57:52 i try to hack every phone i buy Feb 16 17:58:00 think if I was to throw my old e90 at my door it'd probably demolish the wall Feb 16 17:58:18 nid0: your aim is way off Feb 16 17:58:39 They're a perfect target for tinkering - chock full of sensors, radios and network interfaces, high-performance CPUs and accelerated graphics chipsets, as well as (in some cases) an open platform for software development, and they're small enough to carry around Feb 16 17:58:44 ahh the good old days of the 3310 Feb 16 17:58:47 when i have a fit of rage the first thing to go is the phoine Feb 16 17:58:50 i never broke Feb 16 17:58:56 So much latent potential that you wouldn't not want to tinker with one Feb 16 17:59:18 daveyp: my friend sat on mine and cracked the screen :( Feb 16 17:59:32 vmlemon_ but isnt exactly that the problem with phones, don't they just vary too much in there diversity in terms of cpu power, etc ? Feb 16 18:00:02 i thrught that 3310 at so many things and it never let me down Feb 16 18:00:02 Bah, that's why they're interesting - they're all unique in their own ways, unlike generic PCs Feb 16 18:00:47 Just my 0.02p Feb 16 18:00:47 I see, so u go for the challenge of making things work in whatever way u want it to ? Feb 16 18:01:07 * vmlemon_ tends to do stuff simply because he can Feb 16 18:01:09 vmlemon_: you're english? (and you have a tail) Feb 16 18:01:22 o.O Feb 16 18:01:26 I'm English, yes Feb 16 18:01:34 I call the underscore after someone's name a tail Feb 16 18:01:39 Aah Feb 16 18:02:38 * vmlemon_ also has a Screen session running on another machine elsewhere with an IRC client, mostly as a method of catching up with stuff, after being offline Feb 16 18:02:59 looking at http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group , it looks like there's ability enough for a huge bunch of sub working groups Feb 16 18:03:46 vmlemon_ that's what I use ZNC for :) Feb 16 18:04:40 if I'm IRC I'm normally at the PC Feb 16 18:05:14 I'm using my laptop at the moment though, so I have access to Pidgin for IRC... Feb 16 18:05:23 I think his point is that u might miss something when u r not around Feb 16 18:05:26 Indeed Feb 16 18:05:39 I will only go on IRC from my laptop cos I want all the logs in one place Feb 16 18:05:56 I'd ask other people for logs Feb 16 18:06:02 running a screen session or osme kind of bouncer gives u the opportunity to read something u might have missed later, like a big announcement, or something similiar Feb 16 18:06:09 I'd rather centralise logs on one machine, although SSHing through to the other server is a PITA on a high-latency HSDPA connection Feb 16 18:07:28 * vmlemon_ wished that Google Talk's XMPP implementation would support conversations/rooms (and by extension, IRC through a gateway), so that all the logs would be in GMail Feb 16 18:07:35 Not gonna happen, though I guess. Feb 16 18:08:07 u could run a cronjob to periodically send ur logs to a specified gmail address Feb 16 18:08:25 no one forces you to use a crippled XMPP impl, you know ... Feb 16 18:08:36 (I already feed WLM through there, so I only have to give people one address for both e-mail and IM on either XMPP or WLM, which is convenient for me) Feb 16 18:08:41 hey, is there any word on how locked down this MeeGo based LG phone is supposed to be? Feb 16 18:10:49 oh btw, did I miss the part where the new MeeGo site has the list of the new social networks included in the Home Area ? Feb 16 18:11:15 ooo LG Feb 16 18:11:59 mikhas: nokia could run a compliant, federated xmpp ovi chat... Feb 16 18:12:23 is it wrong that I'm using a powerbook to dry my lap? Feb 16 18:12:32 Shame that no-one built a Google Wave-to-IRC gateway, in hindsight Feb 16 18:12:53 vmlemon_: I know people who swear by quassel for irc. a quassel "core" is like a screen session staying connected, the client attaches from anywhere. I keep meaning to try it and get a client on my N900 as it sounds like a good fit (and you could keep your logs at the core) Feb 16 18:13:28 I've had a go with it, although it'll be difficult to use on the shell account that I have, since I can't listen on any new ports from what I can tell Feb 16 18:13:38 (Unless I'm able to ask the sysadmin) Feb 16 18:13:52 did quassel stop using a strange Qt connections-over-tcp homebrew for the client-core link? Feb 16 18:14:03 some people use irrse on a server with screen Feb 16 18:14:07 and connect to that Feb 16 18:14:24 Was more of a "would be cool if it was possible" than "I must have this niche connectivity bridge" ;) Feb 16 18:14:33 *network Feb 16 18:14:39 * CosmoHill is watching Batman forever Feb 16 18:15:48 wow, this channel is 1 day and 7 hours old Feb 16 18:17:10 Wow, that antique Java-based e-mail platform (the BlackBerry OS) finally gets a feature that's been on the Symbian Platform, Series 40, Maemo, some of Samsung's crappy handsets, and the iPhone for ages - a WebKit-based Web browser Feb 16 18:17:13 Huzzah Feb 16 18:26:34 it is a little weird that I am here Feb 16 18:26:39 since I don't own a smart phone or a netbook Feb 16 18:29:50 you might Feb 16 18:30:02 I am however, into developing linux things Feb 16 18:32:38 i hate to even mention it, but did the rpm vs deb fight die for an hour there? Feb 16 18:32:59 slackware package manager is clearly the right solution. Feb 16 18:33:06 SpeedEvil: rofl Feb 16 18:33:36 i'd vote for deb, but I got used to rpm on moblin, so whatever :) Feb 16 18:34:03 .exe in Wine emulator always worked for me - no idea what .deb or .rpm is Feb 16 18:34:17 yes, let's all use installshield :) Feb 16 18:36:41 Stskeeps: it wasn't really a fight anyway :) Feb 16 18:37:04 * mauricek is impressed, that anytime I look into this channel people discuss rpm :) Feb 16 18:37:21 * CosmoHill jumps on SpeedEvil Feb 16 18:37:25 you can't mention it Feb 16 18:37:39 heh Feb 16 18:37:46 Could always beat on the latest version of Windows Mobile, erm Windows phone, erm Windows Phone... Feb 16 18:38:23 mauricek: in this case, it's ridiculing the discussion :) Feb 16 18:38:25 I think i get windows mobile / CE free Feb 16 18:38:42 first hit is free ;) Feb 16 18:38:52 Stskeeps: hehe Feb 16 18:38:59 * CosmoHill hides Feb 16 18:39:24 No multitasking, a UI that looks like an accident in "My First Scrapbooking Class", and a retarded name Feb 16 18:39:28 Bingo Feb 16 18:39:59 on a related note, please tell me rpm/the repository tool in meego allows me to shoot myself in the foot when i tell it to shoot myself in the foot Feb 16 18:40:23 it even shoots you in the foot if you DON'T ask for it Feb 16 18:40:30 * dirkhh_ hides Feb 16 18:40:48 rpm -i auto_shoot_user.rpm Feb 16 18:40:57 i've told apt-get to force a yes and yet it's asking me if i really want to do something stupid Feb 16 18:41:01 Stskeeps: rpm has plenty of low level "shoot myself" thing Feb 16 18:41:06 arjan: excellent Feb 16 18:41:15 most of then are not exposed to the more higher level tools Feb 16 18:41:19 which is actually relatively sane Feb 16 18:41:30 rpm gave me my "oh crap, did I just remove glibc" moment Feb 16 18:41:37 --force fixes everything Feb 16 18:41:41 (it did) Feb 16 18:41:42 CosmoHill: if you --force it it'll do it. Feb 16 18:41:44 just dont' do that Feb 16 18:41:56 but also don't use rpm to remove stuff, just like you shouldn't use dpkg Feb 16 18:41:57 it was a custom built distro Feb 16 18:42:00 use the one level up tool Feb 16 18:42:15 rpm is currently the highest level Feb 16 18:42:20 err.. no Feb 16 18:42:26 well, okay, maybe in your distro Feb 16 18:42:27 on my distro Feb 16 18:43:43 so is the idea to build a custom package manager using the rpm format, or are you looking at existing solutions? Feb 16 18:44:08 I use rpm5 with packages I built Feb 16 18:44:17 i mean for meego Feb 16 18:44:38 I don't know Feb 16 18:44:53 there are two parallel versions of RPM at the moment Feb 16 18:45:52 Package discovery will probably be something different from the actual rpm backend anyway. Feb 16 18:46:38 You'll see a nice frontend on top of the actual technology. What kind of frontend is anyone's guess :) Feb 16 18:46:53 arjan: ping Feb 16 18:47:03 X-Fade: shiny? Feb 16 18:47:11 CosmoHill: Of course! Feb 16 18:47:14 yay Feb 16 18:47:16 arjan: the guys liked your patch but they're asking for a testcase/benchmark. Feb 16 18:48:36 arjan you from intel right? Feb 16 18:48:49 poor reggie, talk.maemo.org at capacity, and a DDoS at same time Feb 16 18:49:17 Stskeeps: The influx of people is the DDos probably ;) Feb 16 18:49:34 some of us actually work on meego ;) Feb 16 18:49:55 sofar \o/ Feb 16 18:52:28 auke: so what do you do? :) (think many of us are trying to figure out who's who these days, a new land to discover) Feb 16 18:52:52 you're all new to me Feb 16 18:53:09 I've been developing moblin fast boot technology for the last year and a half, together with arjan and others Feb 16 18:53:12 CosmoHill: Well, you are to us too :) Feb 16 18:53:21 that's one of the things I've done Feb 16 18:53:22 auke: cool, saw some nice videos :) Feb 16 18:53:31 what is moblin using anyway? custom stuff or upstart? Feb 16 18:53:36 yay Feb 16 18:53:52 sysvinit. upstart was interesting but not ready when we needed it Feb 16 18:54:06 so no parallel boot? Feb 16 18:54:08 moblin's startup is highly customized though Feb 16 18:54:16 :nod: Feb 16 18:54:17 someone suggected upstart to replace sysviinit for clfs Feb 16 18:54:29 moblin is highly customised Feb 16 18:54:33 it's parallel alright, especially where it needs to be Feb 16 18:54:48 we already parallelize in the kernel Feb 16 18:55:02 then we parallelize pre-X daemons where possible Feb 16 18:55:07 hi all Feb 16 18:55:13 then we parallelize Xorg parts / UI parts where possible Feb 16 18:55:13 so this is the channel for Maemo 6? Feb 16 18:55:18 press is a tad confusing about this Feb 16 18:55:19 sivang: no, for MeeGo Feb 16 18:55:23 no, it's the meego channel Feb 16 18:55:32 Nice fastboot video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NxCM8ryF8 Feb 16 18:56:09 Only 7 seconds in total, so that says something :) Feb 16 18:56:28 I'm kinda doing what I did with football Feb 16 18:56:37 mh, moblin 2.1 boots in about 13 seconds on my Samsung NC10 with a 80gig Intel SSD in it Feb 16 18:56:42 meego and I are both new so I'm gone with them Feb 16 18:56:56 votan: that's slow Feb 16 18:57:04 votan: we're at sub 7 Feb 16 18:57:09 I know, what's why I wonder how that videos shows 7 sec :/ Feb 16 18:57:09 (in our current code base) Feb 16 18:57:34 sub7 on regular drives or ssds ? Feb 16 18:57:47 That video is 7 seconds long, the boot is about 5 there. Feb 16 18:57:57 things like SD cards can take a whooping 2 seconds to initialize if they're plugged in at boot Feb 16 18:58:22 nothing plugged in here. netbook on ac power, no ssds, no usb, nothing Feb 16 18:58:30 some touchpad drivers also take a second to start, etc. it's highly system specific Feb 16 18:58:36 but 13secs still sounds slow Feb 16 18:58:38 13sec is including the bios POSt tho Feb 16 18:58:45 we don't measure BIOS time Feb 16 18:58:53 always bootloader to UI Feb 16 18:58:59 k, gimme a sec Feb 16 18:58:59 votan: from pushing the button to ready to use? Feb 16 18:59:03 CosmoHill yes Feb 16 18:59:49 votan: how long from bootloader? Feb 16 19:00:08 about 8 sec from the first loader line to ready to use Feb 16 19:00:46 ok, that's what we expect it to be Feb 16 19:00:51 that is moblin 2.1 on an 80gig Intel SSD Postville G2. but It might be slowed down a little as moblin isnt supporting the trim command afaik, correct me if i am wrong Feb 16 19:01:12 trim shouldn't really influence startup speeds Feb 16 19:01:24 since not much writing goes on at boot time Feb 16 19:01:37 it might in the long term though Feb 16 19:01:52 isnt the ssd slowed down in read speeds aswell if heavily used with "little" space left without regulary using trim ? Feb 16 19:02:40 yes but practically that shouldn't affect the startup that much, since those files do not move around on disk that much Feb 16 19:03:00 unless you keep upgrading and reinstalling every package every day :) Feb 16 19:03:40 usually I dont :> anyway, sI can live with 8secs, way better then my desktop on win7 with 160gid ssd and trim Feb 16 19:05:02 you have big SSD drives Feb 16 19:05:22 I think i would afford a 16GB SSD PCI-E card for my laptop Feb 16 19:06:03 yeh, I recently upgraded my desktop and my netbook on SSDs Feb 16 19:06:07 I think after pancakes I'll do my C++ homework Feb 16 19:06:09 gonna stick with these for a while now Feb 16 19:06:32 I got a newish laptop and it has a 250GB 7400rpm Feb 16 19:07:16 somehow windows aero is less than gaming Feb 16 19:07:25 i only got a netbook and a desktop, the netbook had a 160gig 5400rpm which i replaced by the 80gig intel g2, dont think i'll ever hit the 80gig anyways, dont use my network much for storage :) Feb 16 19:07:41 but it was definately worth the money, ssds make a huge difference imho Feb 16 19:08:37 maybe if i had a job Feb 16 19:13:02 * cworth wonders when conversations will move past "What's with the name?" and "What's with .rpm?"... Feb 16 19:13:15 has already, in scrollback Feb 16 19:13:50 cworth: There is anything beyond that? Feb 16 19:14:00 cworth... will it be available for the n900 ;) Feb 16 19:14:46 hi there Feb 16 19:14:58 evening qgil Feb 16 19:15:03 hi Feb 16 19:15:18 awr Feb 16 19:15:21 rawr* Feb 16 19:15:39 hey qgil Feb 16 19:15:46 Hey qgil :) Good work on the announcements and stuff! :) Feb 16 19:15:48 I can't really follow all the discussions, so... is there anything you impatiently want to ask that I could help clarifying? Feb 16 19:15:49 o/ qgil Feb 16 19:16:14 does meego do MMS? ;-) Feb 16 19:16:25 frals: that's a good one ;) Feb 16 19:16:54 qgil: what will be the fallouts for maemo.org and for mer? Feb 16 19:17:05 Corsac: mer is known already, maemo.org is up to community Feb 16 19:17:07 Corsac: define fallout, please Feb 16 19:17:12 qgilL What is the role of maemo.org moving forward? Meeting place/community for user discussoion of nokia's "differentiation" (if any) of meego and nokia's meego hw? Feb 16 19:17:20 Stskeeps: ha, didn't know you had updates, sorry :) Feb 16 19:17:22 qgil: Actually, yes, what happens to tlak.maemo.org, maemo council, etc.? Feb 16 19:17:31 Corsac: "go join meego, you'd be stupid not to" :) Feb 16 19:17:40 why you keep asking to a Nokia guy about the future of maemo.org? Feb 16 19:17:50 i'll take on taking care of the n8x0 users :) Feb 16 19:17:51 I have my personal opinions as a contributor, but that's it Feb 16 19:17:59 hi qgil! Feb 16 19:18:09 Hmmm...Ok. Feb 16 19:18:10 qgil - I thought maemo.org was *owned* by Nokia? Feb 16 19:18:31 New toys, old toys go collect dust in the corner... Feb 16 19:18:32 FatalSaint: then your thought is outdated :) Feb 16 19:19:06 So I can do a WHOIS lookup and it will be Reggie, right qgil? ;) Feb 16 19:19:14 Registrant Name:Nokia Corporation Feb 16 19:19:15 Registrant Organization:Nokia Corporation Feb 16 19:19:17 Stskeeps: Besides IRC: On the mailing list, various blog comments, etc. Feb 16 19:19:17 too slow ;) Feb 16 19:19:22 there was a long transition, that concluded last summer (symbolically so to say) with the birth of http://maemo.nokia.com Feb 16 19:19:23 qgil: You have better ideas and visions than most of the scared puppies running around in panic, that's why I asked :-) Feb 16 19:19:27 frals: ophone is getting MMS support Feb 16 19:19:30 is qgil shiny? (someone import i should know about?) Feb 16 19:19:32 frals: not sure how mature it is Feb 16 19:19:41 FatalSaint: the ownership of the domain means nothing, really Feb 16 19:19:47 arjan: got a link to git or similiar? Feb 16 19:20:10 qgil: well, meego.com site say garage will be merged, but no other info, will nokia continue funding Maemo.org (hosting, infrastructure etc.), will extras repository still be pushed forward, that kind of stuff? Feb 16 19:20:20 ofono.org is the main page Feb 16 19:20:24 ty Feb 16 19:20:33 it ultimately decides the fate of it though, if nokia decides to shut the domain down next week what's anyone else to do about it Feb 16 19:20:36 ShadowJK: well, if you want to know my *community guy* opinion, I think we have a new council elected for 6 months Feb 16 19:20:40 qgil: Ok, more to the point: how about importing maemo.org member base into meego.com ? Feb 16 19:20:42 Corsac: That is why qgil propesed the Community workgroup. Feb 16 19:20:46 at the end there is "a summit" Feb 16 19:21:04 these look to me like concrete deadlines to move/merge/split whatever needed Feb 16 19:21:18 * lpotter pats qgil on the back for trying to temper the flames the last day... Feb 16 19:21:23 many details to be defined in the way, but at least that is a period decent enough to get us organized Feb 16 19:21:24 BUT Feb 16 19:21:32 that is really my opinion Feb 16 19:21:41 will it be possible to run meego on the n900 ? Feb 16 19:22:04 Eli2_: we run ubuntu, debian, android and macos, why not? :) Feb 16 19:22:05 RST38h: I was hesitating today about dtarting a new thread at talk.maemo.org about Feb 16 19:22:07 Eli2_: Sure, you can even run debian on it now. So ;) Feb 16 19:22:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yZ4fktcuNk wat @ check out at 00:43sec Feb 16 19:22:19 the future of talk.maemo.org, what do the Talk guys want it to be Feb 16 19:22:23 qgil: yeah but, Nokia was funding at lot of stuff in Maemo.org, afaik. Will Nokia keep funding it (hosting, summit, stuff like that) or it doesn't make much sense? Feb 16 19:22:29 Skeeps: Kinda weak.. most of those aren't suitable for mass deployment ;) Feb 16 19:22:38 but something tells me that it's better to leave a week or so to discuss with some more rationality and less noise Feb 16 19:22:39 Android doesn't even sync with the android Market does it? Feb 16 19:22:41 qgil: Well I cannot say anything about all maemo guys Feb 16 19:23:23 qgil: But from the general common sense point, moving userbase of maemo.org/talk.maemo.org to meego.com will give current maemians a sense of continuity they have been searching so hard for Feb 16 19:23:30 fatalsaint: you dont even have android market on all of the android devices Feb 16 19:23:43 iirc htc hero in .fi has no android market at all Feb 16 19:23:43 Nokia keeps (increases?) the budget for community activities - nothing in maemo.org will be cut if there is a community nwilling to keep it Feb 16 19:23:50 qgil: You will basically make a statement "Maemo is Meego now, but the community stays" Feb 16 19:23:56 RST38h: It is not as simple as just copying usernames + passwords. Feb 16 19:24:05 RST38h: There needs to be something on the other end too ;) Feb 16 19:24:06 X-Fade: Yes, I understand Feb 16 19:24:11 but really, the things that cost money are basically the ones cutting the new development Feb 16 19:24:19 and these are the ones clearly moving in the MeeGo direction Feb 16 19:24:36 Stskeeps: are there any official statements regarding that ? Feb 16 19:24:46 hosting a forum plus some other tools that already work in maemo.org for e.g. the Maemo releases is not that much in terms of budget Feb 16 19:24:47 Eli2_: no, this was a technical evaluation Feb 16 19:24:48 qgil: good move (at waiting a while), the signal to noise ratio has been a bit bad *everywhere* recently Feb 16 19:25:01 * w00t has been going nuts over the packaging discussion Feb 16 19:25:05 qgil: that's good to know, thanks Feb 16 19:25:06 qgil: Oh it is not about hosting costs Feb 16 19:25:19 w00t: on t.m.o? Feb 16 19:25:26 i was planning to buy a n900 but now i am really unsure to buy a dead horse Feb 16 19:25:28 * CosmoHill jumps on w00t Feb 16 19:25:29 RST38h: then what? Feb 16 19:25:32 FatalSaint: I haven't seen as much of it as I haven't had *time* to keep up with it Feb 16 19:25:36 Eli2_: i don't think it's a dead horse, at all. Feb 16 19:25:37 qgil: The problem as I see it is that a lot of people are getting impression of being abandoned, more or less like what happened during Maemo4/Maemo5 jump Feb 16 19:25:40 FatalSaint: IRC/the mailing lists have been bad enough. Feb 16 19:25:55 Eli2_: http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/02/future-of-n900-what-meego-means.html Feb 16 19:26:02 w00t: Ah.. I haven't been in the mailing lists to see that one. I should read up.. I'm pretty active on one of the t.m.o ones ;) Feb 16 19:26:20 FatalSaint: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/thread.html Feb 16 19:26:29 qgil: Automatic shifting their accounts to meego.com (with maemo.org accounts intact) will show them that yes, Nokia values THE CURRENT community and clearly sees Maemo and Meego communities as the same thing Feb 16 19:26:30 Thanks @w00t Feb 16 19:26:31 w00t: I'm surprised that n900 is tied to meego this way; I'd think that'd be a Maemo 6 issue Feb 16 19:26:32 RST38h: i think the noise is not helping though Feb 16 19:26:34 qgil: it's not about having a forum, it's about the old timers getting to wave their maemo karma e-peens on meego forums Feb 16 19:26:37 RST38h: are you talking about maemo.org or about something else? Feb 16 19:26:43 Yeah, I think there needs to be some reassurement that this doesn't really change anything for Maemo5 and N900.. Feb 16 19:26:45 qgil: maemo.org Feb 16 19:26:47 arjan: timing is bad in that regard Feb 16 19:26:52 arjan: now maemo 6 is essentially becoming 'meego'... Feb 16 19:27:07 (with regards to branding, not platform, before I get murdered) Feb 16 19:27:13 RST38h: automatic shifting might be less easy than you think Feb 16 19:27:29 not about the technical aspect (that might be complex, since we have several users of several tools) Feb 16 19:27:30 Stskeeps: Well, noise is unavoidable in cases like this, but you can quickly stop it by doing just a few things to reassure people: they want to beieve after all Feb 16 19:27:37 w00t: :) Feb 16 19:27:43 range: hmm? Feb 16 19:27:44 but about the legal aspect too: change of database owners, privacy data and so on Feb 16 19:27:59 qgil: Of course, X-Fade already pointed that out, but it is well worth it Feb 16 19:28:09 w00t: That "being murdered" thingy. There are a few topics running a tad too hot. Feb 16 19:28:12 are accounts being migrated or are people having to reregister? Feb 16 19:28:13 RST38h: it's kinda rude to subscribe people to new email etc automatic Feb 16 19:28:13 database? implement openid Feb 16 19:28:14 :P Feb 16 19:28:14 wll worth what? skip the law on personal data? Feb 16 19:28:24 arjan: I think most users have the idea that Maemo people have been working on Maemo 5 all the time, and would only maybe stop doing that when Maemo6 materializes magically out of thin air at the end of the year Feb 16 19:28:26 RST38h: better to ask permission Feb 16 19:28:29 Stskeeps: meego.com has it Feb 16 19:28:31 use your proud @maemo.org at meego.com Feb 16 19:28:32 :P Feb 16 19:28:47 ShadowJK: and I want a pony too Feb 16 19:28:55 haha. Feb 16 19:29:08 and rainbows :)) Feb 16 19:29:26 exit Feb 16 19:29:28 isn't the most important thing is that we get some kind of structure in place in meego so things can start to be manifested and actual statements and plans be made? Feb 16 19:29:35 arjan: Yes, sending an invitation email that lets the user simply acknowledge it should be good Feb 16 19:29:44 and hopefully involve as many meego pioneers from both camps Feb 16 19:29:50 maybe I'm too pragmatic but I'm thinking on very practical things Feb 16 19:29:59 Stskeeps: *g* Feb 16 19:30:13 arjan,qgil: The exact mechanism can be determined later, once both sides of the shift agree Feb 16 19:30:20 Stskeeps: I sometimes wonder if we're clones, the way we think the same thing Feb 16 19:30:21 for instance: moving the whole Talk content as it is under Meego or just some forums? Feb 16 19:30:31 first reaction: everything, otherwise it doesn't make sense Feb 16 19:30:34 there's a problem too, meego.org is already registered :) Feb 16 19:30:36 but then... OS2005 forum??? Feb 16 19:30:38 qgil: Moving it as it is, but adding more Meego specific forums Feb 16 19:30:44 Or start new and let tmo run out slowly ... Feb 16 19:30:52 qgil: Yes, OS2005 too, why not? Feb 16 19:31:06 because it has nothing to do with MeeGo? Feb 16 19:31:13 qgil: The last 3 people in OS2005 forum will eventually migrate ;) Feb 16 19:31:22 lol @ RST Feb 16 19:31:25 qgil: In a sense, it does. Just not a lot. Feb 16 19:31:27 or get assassinated Feb 16 19:31:28 isn't OS2005 readonly now? Feb 16 19:31:38 oh, perhaps not Feb 16 19:31:46 I thought stuff in 'Old' got locked Feb 16 19:31:57 qgil: An extra forum is not really a problem. In fact, I suggest that Moblin forums (if they exist) also get migrated Feb 16 19:31:58 maemo.org still has a purpose as long as fremantle has life, imho - there's still a lot of structure needed to keep that running Feb 16 19:32:06 another pragmatic question: user Drupal's forum feature or keep the non-OSS tool Talk is using... migrating it to the servers own by... no less than The Linux Foundation? Feb 16 19:32:07 Stskeeps++ Feb 16 19:32:16 bugs.maemo.org doesn't disappear, for instance Feb 16 19:32:21 qgil: Hi, yes I think it's best to start fresh and build up Feb 16 19:32:23 oh hi qgil Feb 16 19:32:36 qgil: I am afraid this is too deep for me :) Feb 16 19:32:37 How about a youtube presentation with boxes and arrows, emphasizing meego is evolution not revolution, showing that maemo and moblin were evolving towards the same thing and will now combine forces. I think people perceive it as a gigantic disconnect, that all past work is getting discarded Feb 16 19:32:54 Stskeeps, true... two things will always exist in this world: bugs and trash. :-P Feb 16 19:32:59 qgil: In theory, there is nothing wrong with it :) Feb 16 19:33:37 drupal's forum feature is quite different from vbulletin though. Feb 16 19:33:51 also all the users explicitely not giving a damn about development, Linux, open source (pick any)... also now users of a Linux Foundation project? Feb 16 19:33:55 Although vbulletin is not free ;) Feb 16 19:33:58 you know, there are some valid questions here :) Feb 16 19:34:28 maybe intel and nokia can go 50/50 on vbulletin Feb 16 19:34:28 if you have forums for N900 etc on meego.org then you need forums for every piece of hardware that runs meego and that is just going to end up as a mess Feb 16 19:34:38 qgil: Question is if you want a developer community or also a end-user community. Feb 16 19:34:41 CosmoHill: I think the problem is not the price, but the principle. Feb 16 19:34:43 being relatively new to maemo (less than a year) I should be happy for this start-over, Revolution, yay! Feb 16 19:34:48 Is free/non-free distinction THAT important for Linux Foundation people??? Feb 16 19:34:49 qgil: maemo.org evolved along the years. Feb 16 19:34:50 I'm sure we want both Feb 16 19:34:55 ah Feb 16 19:34:57 yes Feb 16 19:34:59 and frankly the infrastructure in practice is hosted by nokia and intel Feb 16 19:35:02 i never thought of that Feb 16 19:35:04 LF just owns some domain names and stuff Feb 16 19:35:10 (hosted and funded I should say) Feb 16 19:35:18 have I walked into a meeting? :) Feb 16 19:35:21 hey qgil Feb 16 19:35:21 RST - it would be to me Feb 16 19:35:24 X-Fade: I guess everybody wants a user community as well, but... a MeeGo user community? Users that looked at mego.com and decided to join that space? Feb 16 19:35:34 qgil: been long since we met on the Ubuntu grounds Feb 16 19:35:42 qgil: people who use the MeeGo OS on their phones Feb 16 19:35:48 (or tablets, or whatever) Feb 16 19:35:50 Fatal: Well, disregarding OSS fanatics, is it really important for the foundation as a whole? Feb 16 19:35:53 qgil: It will mostly be required once a MeeGo device is released Feb 16 19:35:58 I'm a pro "new community" like Jaffa described it, with both communities as parents Feb 16 19:36:02 if meego is really device independent like claimed it won't have any end users Feb 16 19:36:10 Stskeeps++ (I'm saying that an awful lot atm) Feb 16 19:36:11 qgil: BTW, OS2005 forum is probably worth renaming into something like Maemo1 Feb 16 19:36:12 arjan: frankly the infrastructure in practice is hosted by the LF, just wait and see Feb 16 19:36:14 RST38h: Hey.. I like my fanaticism :p Feb 16 19:36:29 so MeeGo IS the maemo post 6 ... okay. Feb 16 19:36:32 qgil: So that people not familiar with OS2005 immediately know how it is related Feb 16 19:36:52 We also need to think about what to do with LG customers for instance. Feb 16 19:37:07 Will that OS be named the same, does it need a separate forum. Feb 16 19:37:08 etc etc. Feb 16 19:37:18 It is not only Nokia or Intel now anymore. Feb 16 19:37:22 it is also to be expected that LG and others (maybe Nokia too, don't read between the lines) Feb 16 19:37:46 will push to have user communities around their products Feb 16 19:38:11 difference between a "product" and a software release from an open project Feb 16 19:38:18 doesnt that cause fragmentation though? meego users should be the same no matter what hardware? Feb 16 19:38:20 qgil,X-Fade: Well, at some point you have to decide who the meego.com site is for: humans or corporations Feb 16 19:38:21 that fragmentation is going to be a bit difficult to harness positively if it happens Feb 16 19:38:22 qgil: As someone who's concentrated on Nokia devices, I think this would be natural and healthy. Feb 16 19:38:34 If it is humans, then it does not matter what corporations support it Feb 16 19:38:41 many people just don't care about platform/development/openAPPS and are all around a specific device, a specific (proprietary) software etc Feb 16 19:38:43 arjan: Products create very strong bonds with people. A lot more than your avarage oss project. Feb 16 19:38:48 meego will inherently fragment, similar to android Feb 16 19:38:56 X-Fade++ Feb 16 19:38:58 If it is corporations, then I guess we better continue using maemo.org for meego stuff as well Feb 16 19:39:01 one of the good things about maemo.org was that third party software infra had a good place to be and it was fairly well pushed Feb 16 19:39:20 w00t: ah, yes - the community around software developed for platform Feb 16 19:39:27 RST38h: meego.com is for everybody, the question is not who but the scope Feb 16 19:39:27 Stskeeps: *nod* Feb 16 19:39:33 this crosses the divides of the devices Feb 16 19:39:43 * sivang finally spots the topic and read the FAQ Feb 16 19:39:53 qgil: Well, if corporations define the scope, then it will stay very clean, very polished, very empty Feb 16 19:40:10 qgil: If we, the users and developers define the scope, then it will be like maemo.org Feb 16 19:40:11 wow, 378 idlers already :) Feb 16 19:40:16 I thought this discussion was at least partly about defining the scope Feb 16 19:40:21 *374 Feb 16 19:40:24 qgil: And in this case it makes total sense to migrate maemo.org there Feb 16 19:40:26 Laiska: iknow Feb 16 19:40:29 though I may be wrong Feb 16 19:40:36 it was sub 300 when i left 8 hours ago Feb 16 19:40:47 Hrm.. sounds like MeeGo is more like Android.. I don't frequent any Android forums. XDA-dev's is probably the best I found... I kind of like "maemo is maemo" and having one main maemo place. Feb 16 19:40:52 I'm not sure how big the end-user community around moblin is/was? Feb 16 19:41:15 X-Fade: about 300 people, as found by crashanddie Feb 16 19:41:18 But it seems to be more developer oriented in my short vision. Feb 16 19:41:18 FatalSaint: I'm pretty sure meego is what we make of it Feb 16 19:41:20 RST38h: if you notice it's me (the oh big corp now) insisting that it's you (of, the community) needing to define the scope you want for the meego community Feb 16 19:41:26 FatalSaint++ Feb 16 19:41:29 X-fade: Mostly Intel developers Feb 16 19:41:33 RST38h: maemo.org also needs to find its feet though, cos right now it's comparable to people running screaming around inside a burning house Feb 16 19:41:45 So basically it can merge without clashing in that case. Feb 16 19:41:51 'lo RevdKathy :) Feb 16 19:41:56 RevdKathy! :) Feb 16 19:41:56 w00t: Well.. let's hope so :). Just reading what some people said.. that each device will have it's own MeeGo and so people will only care about that device.. sort of scary. Feb 16 19:42:03 'lo Stskeeep, w00t Feb 16 19:42:09 FatalSaint: no, you're reading *assumption* as fact Feb 16 19:42:12 qgil: Well, the guy who will define the scope is the guy who has admin rights to meego.com, so I guess we should find who this is first Feb 16 19:42:13 \o RevdKathy Feb 16 19:42:26 RevdKathy o/ Feb 16 19:42:40 Yo frals, lcweb Feb 16 19:42:40 FatalSaint: also note that we, the meego community, can't control what a device manufacturer does with it, we can just decide what we want to do with our community Feb 16 19:42:42 personally i think all this community-by-design is misguided Feb 16 19:42:48 Stskeeps: Yea, the perpetual drama... But this is how humans are. Can't do much about it, other than take actions that prevent mass hysteria in its roots Feb 16 19:42:55 w00t: Perhaps.. I should have said *if* MeeGo goes that way it'll be more like Android.. instead saying it is or isn't one way or the other Feb 16 19:43:04 oh ops, .rpm.. Feb 16 19:43:07 i don't know of any serious linux applications which are developed for and by a single distro/community Feb 16 19:43:14 .. Feb 16 19:43:15 RST38h: you talk as if you never saw Nokia starting a project with a community Feb 16 19:43:18 i think the scope might be a combination of what the users want and what the developers are able / want to provide Feb 16 19:43:22 qgil: i think it could be useful to have the two dictators make an indication where they want to see things go, in one or more sentences - as to help determine scope and groups Feb 16 19:43:26 or i could be talking out of my arse Feb 16 19:43:30 (dictators not meant in a negative sense) Feb 16 19:43:47 qgil: Oh I have, unfortunately... Just making it look like I still have hope :) Feb 16 19:44:02 sivang: if that was a sarcastic interjection noting that we don't have control, go to meego-dev mailing list, look at the latest thread about it, and look into how you can help out Feb 16 19:44:14 Stskeeps: i think we are spending too much time trying to guess what "MeeGo" wants, when basically MeeGo is all of us here Feb 16 19:44:31 just go ahead and take the positions you prefer, do whatever you think it's best Feb 16 19:44:33 We must make sure we carry the momentum both projects have forward and not make this be so disruptive that people leave. Feb 16 19:44:40 as you just have been doing in the Maemo context Feb 16 19:44:42 w00t: what was sarcastic? no sir! I was just noting that I am not likely to contribute to an rpm based distro Feb 16 19:44:57 qgil: still, the only position that makes a difference is the position by the guy who owns rights to meego.com Feb 16 19:44:57 sivang: so it wasn't sarcastic, you just weren't being helpful Feb 16 19:44:58 w00t, thanks for the clarification, but i think nokia should communicate this better, this might scare away lots of customers. Feb 16 19:45:04 sivang: if you want to be helpful, look at the mailing list Feb 16 19:45:07 w00t: e.g more interested and feels home around .debs Feb 16 19:45:10 w00t: will do! Feb 16 19:45:12 * sivang subs Feb 16 19:45:14 qgil, so you're basically saying that meego is mostly a community effort, and not so much an effort of Intel and Nokia working together? Feb 16 19:45:17 qgil: The rest of us can chatter all we want, it won't change a lot Feb 16 19:45:34 RST38h: do you know who owns rights in maemo.org and did this condition your involvement in the comunity? Feb 16 19:45:37 :) Feb 16 19:45:37 qgil: Although to be fair this has been a business decision dropped upon all of us and there is no clear guidance. Feb 16 19:45:40 sivang: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/thread.html - see thread title 'RPM vs DEB, the FAQ item?' Feb 16 19:45:43 RST38h: Although, I have the admin rights to meego.com, it's really up to the community to define what needs to be there Feb 16 19:46:00 qgil: That makes people insecure. Feb 16 19:46:20 initially we needed something up, but really the community will be the lead on this eventually Feb 16 19:46:25 X-Fade: the decisionis that both projects merge, and there is an explicit invitation to both communities to join Feb 16 19:46:25 qgil: 1) yes, I do 2) No, I initially did not, but reviewed my degree of involvement later Feb 16 19:46:27 Yes a community can steer things, but if you go in the opposite direction all is kind of lost ;) Feb 16 19:46:40 Quit Feb 16 19:46:44 when are we going to see talk.meego.org? ;) Feb 16 19:46:45 nobody said "but please, only the developers" or "only those liking Qt and rpm" ;) etc Feb 16 19:46:50 Roadmapping will help in the future. Feb 16 19:46:52 qgil my biggest impression so far from the whole thing, maemo just gained a lot of talented engineers to help take maemo to the next level. thats my community head anyway :) Feb 16 19:46:53 mshaver: ah! are you the one to bug about getting the whole why-RPM as an FAQ item then? (from meego-dev) Feb 16 19:46:56 qgil: Basically, at some point I stopped trying to affect the direction where maemo.org went Feb 16 19:47:04 Honestly.. the RPM v Deb thing - there's technically no reason both couldn't be supported @w00t, sivang Feb 16 19:47:12 The underlying framework of the OS is what really matters Feb 16 19:47:16 FatalSaint: it comes down to a silly problem. naming. Feb 16 19:47:20 yes Feb 16 19:47:27 I was discussing conversion with Stskeeps earlier Feb 16 19:47:33 Stskeeps: Well it has a silly name anyway ;) Feb 16 19:47:41 w00t: ya, I'll go ahead and add that, thanks Feb 16 19:47:45 I do think it might be possible, somehow, some way, to convert packages on the fly or just to somehow support both at once Feb 16 19:47:46 FatalSaint: dependancies aren't named the same across platforms Feb 16 19:47:49 Once we're over that, were in te clear :D Feb 16 19:47:58 ah, you start to discuss packaging and I must leave for a call Feb 16 19:48:03 mshaver: thanks much! I do think it will help with some of the noise Feb 16 19:48:07 lol Feb 16 19:48:08 qgil: we're not trying to scare you off, honest Feb 16 19:48:21 qgil: *constructive* discussion! :P Feb 16 19:48:22 http://moblin.org/documentation/moblin-overview/faq even says "It's quite possible that we, or someone else, will create future builds using the DPKG format" Feb 16 19:48:23 really, I have a call starting in 12 minutes Feb 16 19:48:32 hehe Feb 16 19:48:34 mshaver: thanks Feb 16 19:48:36 have fun :) Feb 16 19:48:36 if there is anything I can help for the next 10... Feb 16 19:48:48 Stskeeps: True.. but MeeGo is it's own entity and will likely have it's own naming. So whether a dev makes a deb or rpm for MeeGo won't matter, he'll use the MeeGo's dependency names. But: I don't see a way to integrate deb's being able to call rpm dependencies.. if that's what you mean Feb 16 19:48:59 qgil, taking it from the sauna tonight or more natural surroundings? :D Feb 16 19:49:10 qgil: I don't think so, apart from maybe thinking how nokia can word that it's not going to be the companies taking the lead Feb 16 19:49:11 FatalSaint: right, so, if you wanted to make debian packages and make them into rpms, that probably would be possible Feb 16 19:49:19 lcweb woah - that's an image I didn't need! Feb 16 19:49:24 qgil: because right now, I think a lot of people assume that nokia are going to be handholding Feb 16 19:49:25 lcweb: the sauna as usual., the single place where I can have transatlantic calls without waking up the kids Feb 16 19:49:48 you have a sauna? Feb 16 19:49:49 qgil: and as a result, people don't know what to do, or how to head themselves Feb 16 19:49:51 * andre__ now wonders if transatlantic calls are louder than any other, normal calls Feb 16 19:49:52 what would be the dependency resloution mechanism ? yum and friends? Feb 16 19:49:53 RevdKathy: we didnt need it either, thankfully quim didnt mention whether he was +towel and frankly i dont wanna know lol Feb 16 19:49:57 the "Is Moblin really open source" question is also interesting ;-) It suggests to me that Maemo will live on as the distro of Meego that Nokia supplies Feb 16 19:49:57 * RevdKathy covers her eyes Feb 16 19:50:03 qgil: Any info on the steering committee meetings? Feb 16 19:50:19 how much of the pre-alpha meego has been written already? Feb 16 19:50:22 qgil: Where and when they are held? Feb 16 19:50:30 rdm_: bit of an open question really Feb 16 19:50:30 lcweb: hehe Feb 16 19:50:37 w00t: well, companies do take some lead in the Maemo and Moblin project, and so far that was a known deal and not the biggest problem Feb 16 19:50:39 rdm_: is there any particular part of the stack you're wondering about? Feb 16 19:50:49 by having not one company but many involved, the influence of each company diminishes Feb 16 19:50:56 w00t: That is supported by the fact that it appears the packaging system was already determined. If this was truly a "meego" community, meant for us to build it up, then wouldn't that have been determined after the OS announcement, and after a "community" board of some kind was made? Feb 16 19:51:07 So it appears Intel and/or Nokia will have to take *some* part in the direction Feb 16 19:51:10 qgil: right -- but from what you're saying here, that isn't so much the case here.. while they're taking a role, they're not dictating terms, at least, that's the impression i got from you earlier Feb 16 19:51:11 it's not *entirely* community Feb 16 19:51:11 look the Linux Foundation itself, look big oss projects with several companies as stakeholders Feb 16 19:51:15 bfree: I hope to see that and stay there, I'm already confused with the moving targets with PyQT and PySide Feb 16 19:51:19 andre_: due to the distance you have to yell a lot ;-) Feb 16 19:51:20 FatalSaint: companies are community members like everyone ele, so Feb 16 19:51:21 se Feb 16 19:51:30 andre__* Feb 16 19:51:34 heh Feb 16 19:51:53 w00t: file system layout, init script for instance Feb 16 19:52:13 qgil: to use an admittedly painful example, look at how long it took people to start figuring out that maybe things could be done about not using RPM Feb 16 19:52:15 rdm_: i think someone started working on the kernel! Feb 16 19:52:20 FatalSaint: the packaging was not consulted to any community in the Maemo or Moblin projects, nor the Qt or Clutter thing, etc Feb 16 19:52:22 Stskeeps: Although some have more to say than others to be fair. Feb 16 19:52:28 really, no loss to whatever there was befor Feb 16 19:52:48 packaging concerns are bikeshedding problems Feb 16 19:52:53 qgil: Understood.. that's my point.. they made the decision - thus they need to continue to actively help determine where MeeGo goes Feb 16 19:52:54 and the fact of having a more decentralized setting just gives more flexibility to the whole setting Feb 16 19:52:59 It can't just be tossed onto a "community" Feb 16 19:52:59 lcweb: they are, but if people want to do them, then let them do them Feb 16 19:53:19 brb Feb 16 19:53:22 lcweb: if they don't have the energy (which might well be the case), then it won't happen anyway, and nothing of value was lost Feb 16 19:53:26 ofc they just get in the way of real questions and considerations this meeting of minds should have Feb 16 19:53:32 all this stuff about community building is bikeshedding too Feb 16 19:53:34 Nokia and Intel care mainly about the software platform and about finding more stakeholders to make it successful Feb 16 19:53:40 why can't we have Maemo that uses MeeGo's stuff together with deb based pkging system? Feb 16 19:53:54 what they really don't care is whether you want the whole Talk moved to MeeGo or start a new Drupal forum or... Feb 16 19:53:55 sivang: if you want to help write the code to do so, you can Feb 16 19:54:03 me hits w00t Feb 16 19:54:06 some real important questions are: what can we do to make sure the development model works properly re timely upgrades Feb 16 19:54:29 qgil: In other words, they do not care about anyone present here? Feb 16 19:54:35 ali1234: why would upgrades not be timely? Feb 16 19:54:41 ? Feb 16 19:54:47 * timeless_mbp is timely Feb 16 19:54:49 ali1234: the source is available to be built and used at will Feb 16 19:54:50 w00t: what is the meego/maemo kernel patch supposed to do? hardware drivers should be ready from meamo/moblim, right? Feb 16 19:54:50 qgil, software licensing of the qt meego stack, would it be possible to run meego on windows laptop for instance Feb 16 19:54:55 timeless_mbp: but you're timeless! :) Feb 16 19:54:59 that too! Feb 16 19:55:07 w00t: yeah right, so how do i build a fremantle fiasco firmware from source? Feb 16 19:55:08 but when i need a second nick, i use timely Feb 16 19:55:08 rdm_: drivers will come from hardware vendors Feb 16 19:55:10 :) Feb 16 19:55:17 ali1234: meego is not maemo Feb 16 19:55:32 timeless_mbp: ah :> Feb 16 19:55:35 w00t: correct. so what are we going to do to make sure it doesn't end up the same anyway? Feb 16 19:55:42 w00t: so what is the work then? An abstraction layer on the drivers? Feb 16 19:55:47 lcweb: http://meego.com/about/licensing-policy Feb 16 19:55:51 MINOM :) Feb 16 19:55:51 lcweb: I can answer that, yes, it will be possible Feb 16 19:55:52 ali1234: I'm rather lost as to what you're saying, really Feb 16 19:56:04 ali1234: when it's all developed out in the open, with, and by community members, how can the same thing happen? Feb 16 19:56:05 akiniemi: You won't be able to run a plain meego image on your nokia and have the same functionality as you have now. Feb 16 19:56:06 thanks qgil and RST38h Feb 16 19:56:12 lcweb: It is a freaking Moblin, runs on any well behaved i386 hardware Feb 16 19:56:15 ali1234: ^^ Feb 16 19:56:16 ali1234: I don't think it's a good thing to dwell too much on the past Feb 16 19:56:22 w00t: Does MeeGo even exist yet? Can we built it and run it on *something*? A netbook, an N900, something? Feb 16 19:56:28 RST38h: no, thats not what i asked Feb 16 19:56:28 what is maemo ? Feb 16 19:56:30 s/built/build/g Feb 16 19:56:37 i dont necessarily want to replace base OS Feb 16 19:56:41 and qt runs anywhere Feb 16 19:56:45 X-Fade: i'm not sure what your point is Feb 16 19:56:46 it was the meego UI Feb 16 19:56:47 so to get this straight, maemo is not going ad the desired direction nokia wise, and so came the idea to combine to moblin and attempt better community direction? Feb 16 19:56:49 FatalSaint: moblin certainly can, maemo certainly can, but meego? not yet Feb 16 19:56:54 sitting ontop of basic windows Feb 16 19:56:56 i was thinking Feb 16 19:57:11 FatalSaint: it's day two, give it some time Feb 16 19:57:12 ali1234: To make you understand that MeeGo is only the plain basic base. Feb 16 19:57:21 * sivang attempts some more reading Feb 16 19:57:24 w00t: Yes.. I'm using Moblin now actually.. first time on my Netbook. It's definitely different. We can build Maemo? Feb 16 19:57:31 FatalSaint: not really Feb 16 19:57:34 Lucky Goldstar is joining MeeGo too?? Feb 16 19:57:40 okay Feb 16 19:57:41 Ok, just checking ;) Feb 16 19:57:41 FatalSaint: no, but it seems it should be possible to do it in MeeGo. Feb 16 19:57:43 X-Fade: so you are basically saying that the stuff you get on the actual devices will continue to be developed in the same closed manner as maemo? Feb 16 19:57:46 users out there dont like changing OS on existing hardware, but giving them an entirely new UX with one install is reasonable Feb 16 19:57:49 mshaver: so another item to the FAQ Feb 16 19:57:50 ali1234: Not what you see if you look at your N900 for instance. Feb 16 19:57:52 FatalSaint: what Stskeeps said Feb 16 19:57:53 mshaver: "why?" Feb 16 19:58:04 FatalSaint: -technically- you can build one of Maemo if you look around a bit Feb 16 19:58:07 ali1234: It is all about a shared base. A shared platform. Feb 16 19:58:19 Stskeeps: people tend to be attached to their sanity, I think Feb 16 19:58:20 ali1234: This doesn't mean every app is open or will be shared. Feb 16 19:58:21 time for my call - it's been a pleasure as usual - bye! Feb 16 19:58:24 hello everyone Feb 16 19:58:30 qgil: don't be a stranger -- take care! Feb 16 19:58:38 X-Fade: the problem is that even the open components are developed in secret Feb 16 19:58:50 ali1234: examples? Feb 16 19:58:51 ali1234: Well that will hopefully change with meego. Feb 16 19:59:01 what's with the LG stuff? Feb 16 19:59:01 w00t: pick any fiasco firmware Feb 16 19:59:09 anyone? Feb 16 19:59:16 Is there anyone, who is interested in meego.com from the community/end-user perspective? Feb 16 19:59:18 X-Fade: hopefully. so what changes have been made to help that happen? Feb 16 19:59:23 villemv: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/16/lg-gw990-to-be-among-first-meego-phones/ Feb 16 19:59:24 ali1234: didn't you see maemo.gitorious.org recently? Feb 16 19:59:25 sivang: big question, not sure I have the answer to that one! ;) Feb 16 19:59:26 firmware by definition is not "open components" Feb 16 19:59:27 ali1234: that's a bit different to the stuff I'm thinking about, and that's the stuff which is going away with meego Feb 16 19:59:27 X-Fade: and what can the community do about it? Feb 16 19:59:31 ali1234: anyway, see http://maemo.gitorious.org/ Feb 16 19:59:36 X-Fade: which brings us back to my original question Feb 16 19:59:37 ali1234: Development will be done inside meego. Feb 16 19:59:39 w00t: diaf Feb 16 19:59:39 Amby: almost every developer wants to be an end user Feb 16 19:59:43 the damned code gets in the way tho Feb 16 19:59:47 Stskeeps: I had more to type, so I win Feb 16 19:59:58 that's pretty amazing Feb 16 20:00:02 X-Fade: that phone is huge Feb 16 20:00:11 they should be able to push out a bit cheaper stuff Feb 16 20:00:16 MisterN: Small hand :) Feb 16 20:00:29 hmm, do my C++ homework or play games Feb 16 20:00:29 X-Fade: i have small hands too :P Feb 16 20:00:40 CosmoHill: clearly c++ is more fun Feb 16 20:00:48 maybe Feb 16 20:00:49 mshaver: let's work on that one shall we? Feb 16 20:00:56 teaching it was kinda sucky Feb 16 20:00:56 Stskeeps: i'm looking at it and i don't see what i am supposed to see Feb 16 20:01:09 lcweb: lol :) then I ask differently - is there anyone here, who is interested in the meego.com experience, who is willing to work with me on a proposal for a different structure? Feb 16 20:01:20 2 hours, 2 students >.< Feb 16 20:01:28 ali1234: that a shitload of stuff is openly developed these days? :P Feb 16 20:01:36 47% (so far) of all oss packages Feb 16 20:01:44 Amby: I wasn't aware a "structure" was already decided? Feb 16 20:01:49 To even have a "different" one? Feb 16 20:01:57 oh she/he left Feb 16 20:01:58 nvm Feb 16 20:02:26 Amby: just talk about it Feb 16 20:02:27 Amby: I think RevdKathy for instance might be Feb 16 20:02:34 It will be hard to develop 'competitive advantage' open source apps in MeeGo too, if they reveal product secrets for instance. Feb 16 20:02:47 Companies need to consider that too. Feb 16 20:03:11 Stskeeps: but it still isn't tied into a proper bugtracker, and we have no idea if/when any of the fixes there will end up in an official update Feb 16 20:03:11 what were you thinking, Amby? Feb 16 20:03:12 Amby: mlfoster does l10n as well, i think Feb 16 20:03:33 ali1234: i have pretty good success in getting things in. Feb 16 20:03:41 X-Fade: open source does not have to be in the public eye from day0 Feb 16 20:03:52 ali1234: at least Meego will have a public bt Feb 16 20:04:04 lcweb: No, but that was the complaint for maemo ;) Feb 16 20:04:13 ali1234, Stskeeps: I also don't think that meego would be tied to a corporate release schedule Feb 16 20:04:14 thats slightly different Feb 16 20:04:23 in my taste maemo is far more suprior to Moblin, which makes me surprised reading FAQ entry #4 Feb 16 20:04:35 w00t: i think it should have 'a' release schedule Feb 16 20:04:36 only qt to be merged from Maemo? odd Feb 16 20:04:38 RevdKathy: I've started to collect my thoughts for maemo.org on the weekend regarding a cleaner structure reflecting the three main roles (user / community member / developer) Feb 16 20:04:41 what about a public release schedule? corporate or not Feb 16 20:04:43 I'm a fan of rolling releases personally @w00t, Stskeeps Feb 16 20:04:46 Stskeeps: obviously Feb 16 20:04:47 "only" qt? Feb 16 20:04:53 w00t: and stick to it, too :P Feb 16 20:04:57 Stskeeps: agreed, also Feb 16 20:05:01 qt is huge, mat Feb 16 20:05:03 man Feb 16 20:05:03 Amby: designers, documentors, translators Feb 16 20:05:08 villemv: yes, but Feb 16 20:05:15 incorporating qt is a very good decision. Feb 16 20:05:16 Qt, Qt Creator, Qt Mobility, QML Feb 16 20:05:17 villemv: "core base software" to be merged from moblin Feb 16 20:05:18 wikifiddlers Feb 16 20:05:27 villemv: meaning userland / kernel ? Feb 16 20:05:35 Amby, I'd love to see a better streamlined forum, but personally I think a forum is essential - and there is something creative in the mishmash of everyone in together Feb 16 20:05:36 sivang: and system daemons etc Feb 16 20:05:41 the commodity stuff, if you will Feb 16 20:05:48 Amby: user classes are more varied Feb 16 20:05:50 Stskeeps: I still think weekly testing, monthly dev, four monthly 'stable' would be something interesting, even if it would drive people insane Feb 16 20:05:58 villemv: what was wrong with Maemo's ? Feb 16 20:06:13 sivang: closed source most of them. Feb 16 20:06:14 sivang: the fact that nokia had to maintain it, for starters Feb 16 20:06:18 w00t: i like the 2 cycles per year approach Feb 16 20:06:22 some f the projects wouldn't have worked if w were all in our own little corners Feb 16 20:06:32 RevdKathy: would mean separation of forum, but does mean different things ppl are looking for when they visit maemo/meego site Feb 16 20:06:45 * CosmoHill goes to do c++. but first, music Feb 16 20:06:58 villemv: okay, so nokia want to not ivest money anymore in the OS development just in QT enablement ? Feb 16 20:06:59 I wouldn't separate the forum. The forum is the one place everyone piles in Feb 16 20:07:06 lcweb: it's a bit infrequent, but hey, it might work Feb 16 20:07:12 RevdKathy: meant "woulnd't" ;) Feb 16 20:07:22 RevdKathy, ah, I meant to respond to your posts this morning. . . . Feb 16 20:07:23 ahem RevdKathy this irc is where everyone piles in ;) Feb 16 20:07:26 sivang: well, OS development is not what makes the money anyway Feb 16 20:07:29 right, bugger this Feb 16 20:07:34 RevdKathy: plenty of people won't go near forums Feb 16 20:07:35 I must get off home, despite the interesting conversation Feb 16 20:07:39 I shall be back online soon Feb 16 20:07:40 w00t: its in line with the current council times and with how other distros do it Feb 16 20:07:40 it's work that is massively duplicated across different projects Feb 16 20:07:48 I WOULD have a separate place for support and help, for ranting etc Feb 16 20:07:50 spring and autumn Feb 16 20:07:50 ali1234: for maemo.org, forums are actually the biggest place atm Feb 16 20:07:52 ali1234: Check the number of online users on talk now then :) Feb 16 20:08:07 we need a way to "clean up" t.m.o somehow Feb 16 20:08:07 ali1234: Order of magnitude difference ;) Feb 16 20:08:12 I know there are people who avoid fora - that's why we also have mailing lists Feb 16 20:08:14 Stskeeps: I see, and Moblin shall provides all the open source drivers for example for all the N900 peripheria that now uses prop. firmware? Feb 16 20:08:16 think of it as slashdot without karma => mess Feb 16 20:08:26 so what? how many of them are contributing anything except trolling? Feb 16 20:08:27 and mailing lists can be integrated better Feb 16 20:08:33 sivang: no, this would probably still be done by hw vendor Feb 16 20:08:34 tmo just needs "show posts with thanks only" Feb 16 20:08:41 how much of meamo is closed source? Feb 16 20:08:44 one problem in Talk is that we use Forum for everything (e.g. newcomer learning) Feb 16 20:08:46 and 90% of the problem of bloat vanishes Feb 16 20:08:49 rdm_: sec, let me dig out my report Feb 16 20:08:51 lcweb: making it utterly useless because nobody will get thanks Feb 16 20:08:54 lcweb: or the ability to vote down/hide posts Feb 16 20:08:55 Stskeeps: hmm, so I don't seem to get it. What's the differnec then? what is the rationale ? Feb 16 20:09:04 voting down is a bit more sane Feb 16 20:09:08 * w00t poofs Feb 16 20:09:09 No, needs a 'new user and help' section Feb 16 20:09:11 what i don't understand is that you spent the last 6 months complaining about how crap tmo is and now you want to carry it over to the new project Feb 16 20:09:13 even w/o explicit karma, some kind of "hide post" would be nice Feb 16 20:09:15 rdm_: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-openness-of-maemo-50-pr11-and.html Feb 16 20:09:22 with people willing to help out for karma Feb 16 20:09:26 w00t: you are gone, but right now the data is there, best thing is to test it Feb 16 20:09:28 when > 20 people hide the post, it would be hidden from everyone thath doesn't show the bad posts Feb 16 20:09:35 thanks! Feb 16 20:09:58 villemv: nahh Feb 16 20:10:03 requieres changing db Feb 16 20:10:06 sivang: the difference is that they start out with a completely open base system that actually boots without closed pieces to a ui. Feb 16 20:10:09 this is just a toggle on head of a thread Feb 16 20:10:22 and I'd have a 'general device' area for all the 'n900 rocks/suck' thread Feb 16 20:10:23 RevdKathy: if you lead new user first through a learning area - and then to the "ask" section, you get less conflicts and more confident users. Feb 16 20:10:23 sivang: (from generic platform pov) Feb 16 20:10:23 Stskeeps: ah, I see. Feb 16 20:10:27 show all|thanked Feb 16 20:10:32 Stskeeps: so we gain complete transparency ? Feb 16 20:10:38 sivang: we'll see, and i hope so Feb 16 20:10:42 that's a good model, Amby Feb 16 20:10:46 Stskeeps: getting the code to the phone app for example? ;) Feb 16 20:10:54 yeah, "wild west" threads where rocks / sucks is allowed ;-) Feb 16 20:10:55 sivang: who knows, maybe? Feb 16 20:10:58 hehe Feb 16 20:11:01 troll honeypots Feb 16 20:11:01 sivang: let's see where this leads. Feb 16 20:11:03 though some new users are perfectly competent Feb 16 20:11:05 There's a bug there I'm dying to fix Feb 16 20:11:24 the 'rock/sucks' thread need their own romper room Feb 16 20:11:58 Stskeeps: https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&email1=sivan@omniqueue.com&emailtype1=exact&emailassigned_to1=1&emailreporter1=1 Feb 16 20:12:31 Stskeeps: hrm - https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8747 Feb 16 20:12:41 damn HP Mini touchpad/kbd Feb 16 20:12:46 sivang: can you repro the crash? Feb 16 20:12:53 Too much damn scrollback to catch up on. Feb 16 20:13:01 sivang: it has a int- alias, it is getting handled Feb 16 20:13:05 villemv: read the bug repot :) Feb 16 20:13:11 just give it some gdb love and paste the stack, it will be fixed in no time ;-) Feb 16 20:13:13 Stskeeps: int-ernally ? Feb 16 20:13:16 Meego to stop for today. Long day already. Feb 16 20:13:30 sivang: as in there's a internal bug for it Feb 16 20:13:32 today's C++ homework, linked lists Feb 16 20:13:34 no idea how it looks though Feb 16 20:13:37 Stskeeps: k then Feb 16 20:13:43 GeneralAntilles: deb/rpm/deb/rpm/DEB/RPM/hi qgil/tmo Feb 16 20:13:49 Stskeeps: shaem this is not updated on the public bug report Feb 16 20:13:57 (brief overview) Feb 16 20:13:59 Hah.. just watched the "Moblin" netbook intro... How - cute. Feb 16 20:14:05 excellent work lcweb Feb 16 20:14:09 How does something like this not have a user community? Feb 16 20:14:12 LG! Feb 16 20:14:22 that's the big thing GeneralAntilles Feb 16 20:14:34 villemv, LG's backing? Feb 16 20:14:39 making a phone Feb 16 20:14:59 FatalSaint: you can't create a community out of the blue Feb 16 20:15:00 CosmoHill: linkedlists with iterators? Feb 16 20:15:01 http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/16/lg-gw990-to-be-among-first-meego-phones/ Feb 16 20:15:07 FatalSaint: just see how difficult it was for maemo Feb 16 20:15:08 maybe Feb 16 20:15:26 villemv, very interesting Feb 16 20:15:31 MeeGo is a total lovefest, rpm notwithstanding Feb 16 20:15:33 ive got a truckload of C based linked lists in structs and want to replace with iterators Feb 16 20:15:37 so if the MeeGo is the next Maemo, I want to help QA. Feb 16 20:15:38 Stskeeps: Maybe... but this entire OS is very, very, User-ey-ish. I mean.. talk about bubbly. Feb 16 20:15:41 yeah GeneralAntilles. Maemo for the proletariat! Feb 16 20:15:52 villemv, ah, nevermind, it's just that stupid Moblin phone. :P Feb 16 20:15:52 I miss alot of brute force, rock solid QA in Maemo Feb 16 20:16:03 I'm using classes Feb 16 20:16:10 I've not done this before in cpp Feb 16 20:16:24 sivang: technically, the next Maemo is still Maemo 6 (Harmattan) Feb 16 20:16:31 it's going to be MeeGo-compatible Feb 16 20:16:32 CosmoHill: and when i move the stuff im working on to c i will be encapsulating them into classes too Feb 16 20:16:39 the one after that will be full MeeGo Feb 16 20:16:40 class CInteger : public INumber Feb 16 20:16:52 thiago_home: Actually I am not sure they're still calling it Maemo 6.. just Harmattan Feb 16 20:17:21 lcweb: GObject style ? :) Feb 16 20:17:22 MeeGo-compatible at the binary level? Feb 16 20:17:24 thiago_home: okay Feb 16 20:17:37 they should push GObject at high school Feb 16 20:17:40 * CosmoHill stabs webCT Feb 16 20:17:41 thiago_home: can I get Maemo 6 on my N900 today ? Feb 16 20:17:44 that might stop them bitching about C++ Feb 16 20:17:50 RevdKathy: you can see my brainstorm here: http://prezi.com/qefcq69cpjkm Feb 16 20:17:54 rdm_: no, don't think so - just api/dev level.. QGil has a topic on t.m.o about that-ish Feb 16 20:17:57 CosmoHill: WebCT ? where areyou dtudying ? Feb 16 20:18:01 england Feb 16 20:18:16 Amby: ah, you're Renegadesomething? Feb 16 20:18:20 sivang: linked lists from c structs have nothing to do with gobject, its just a v common method of handling groups of data Feb 16 20:18:20 oops Feb 16 20:18:36 lcweb: okay, that was just teasing :) Feb 16 20:18:43 Stskeeps: yes :) changing names, so whomever ignored me before falls for it this time! :-D Feb 16 20:19:11 Amby - will read later Feb 16 20:19:16 linked lists are very easy to implement from scratch Feb 16 20:19:20 errr watch! Feb 16 20:19:26 especially if you're using plain C, without any supporting library like glib or APR Feb 16 20:19:27 This is why I hate user-friendliness. I am having a heck of a time figuring this moblin out. How do I install to hard drive without rebooting? Or is that not possible? Feb 16 20:19:51 Damn bubbly OS's taking over the world.. Feb 16 20:19:56 hehe Feb 16 20:20:05 FatalSaint: hardware cahnges need reboots? Feb 16 20:20:13 right, i might not be able to see you talking to me so use my nick if you want my attention Feb 16 20:20:33 thiago_home: ofc, thats exactly how it is, i was just pondering how to incorporate and make iterators out of them in c++ (a library allocates the data in the list, it just needs a neat wrapper around it) Feb 16 20:21:05 sivang: No I'm running of the USB-Live thing on my netbook. I want to install it to the hard drive. When I booted it asked if I wanted to install or run live.. I picked run live.. but now I can't figure out where the button to "install to hard drive" is.. I guess Ubuntu/Linux Live-CD's have spoiled me. Feb 16 20:21:06 lcweb: just have a pointer to current item in iterator and you are done |-) Feb 16 20:21:20 lcweb: the iterator to a linked list is the linked list node anyway Feb 16 20:21:31 FatalSaint: Ubuntu have spoiled me as well :) Feb 16 20:21:35 FatalSaint: know the feeling Feb 16 20:21:37 forward iterator only though Feb 16 20:21:50 lcweb: in the simplest of linked lists (singly-linked list without summary), the list and the iterator would be one and the same Feb 16 20:22:22 ahh cool, i thought i had to allocate the data nodes as c objects themselves Feb 16 20:22:33 c++ Feb 16 20:25:16 lcweb: an iterator is something that gives you access to the current element and lets you go to the next Feb 16 20:25:21 (the most basic iterator) Feb 16 20:25:26 that's exactly what a linked-list's node is Feb 16 20:25:41 if it's a doubly-linked list, you can make a bidirectional iterator Feb 16 20:27:09 http://www.slipperybrick.com/2010/02/aava-mobile-unveils-first-open-mobile-device-platform/ Feb 16 20:27:20 lol Feb 16 20:27:46 well, iterator should be mutable as well Feb 16 20:28:01 I mean, you should be able to it++ :-) Feb 16 20:28:04 ...atom based phone?! Feb 16 20:28:08 as opposed to it = it++ Feb 16 20:28:20 thanks thiago_home. CosmoHill i hope you are taking notes ;) Feb 16 20:28:21 moorestown meego wonderphone Feb 16 20:28:30 villemv ^ Feb 16 20:28:31 bwhuh? Feb 16 20:28:38 your c++ homework :p Feb 16 20:28:43 lcweb: i have logs, does that count? Feb 16 20:29:03 i can't possible imagine what you are using to connect to the channel with... :p Feb 16 20:29:07 the teacher will probably say thiago has no clue about C++ =) Feb 16 20:29:23 lol! Feb 16 20:29:24 villemv: it = it++ is not defined :-) Feb 16 20:29:32 my teacher has a phd, a masters and a normal degree Feb 16 20:29:55 yeah, /me is clueless on C++ Feb 16 20:29:55 it = it++, thaet sounds like a loop Feb 16 20:30:07 CosmoHill: it's not a loop. It's just undefined behaviour. Feb 16 20:30:17 i = 1; j = i++ + i++; Feb 16 20:30:19 ignore it = it++, that was crap Feb 16 20:30:21 what's the value of i ? Feb 16 20:30:22 it = it + 1 Feb 16 20:30:29 it = it.next, whatever Feb 16 20:30:43 btw, ++it Feb 16 20:30:44 not it++ Feb 16 20:30:53 * lcweb frowns Feb 16 20:31:00 ++it = pre=int Feb 16 20:31:11 its not called ++c they should make the optimal path be it++ ;) Feb 16 20:31:16 sigh :P Feb 16 20:31:29 optimal path is pre-inc Feb 16 20:31:31 http://aru.black-flag.co.uk/Ian/pics/incremental.jpg Feb 16 20:31:48 what's the username & password Feb 16 20:31:49 :) Feb 16 20:31:53 "ag" for both Feb 16 20:32:05 were you supposed to give that out Feb 16 20:32:09 yeah, ++c should be the cleaned up c++ Feb 16 20:32:10 yes Feb 16 20:32:13 lol Feb 16 20:32:16 there is a reason it's only two letters Feb 16 20:32:32 ++c++ Feb 16 20:32:50 you can't do that because neither ++c nor c++ are lvalues Feb 16 20:32:58 omg 4 +s it must be uber good Feb 16 20:33:07 how about c----1 ? Feb 16 20:33:17 sigh Feb 16 20:33:25 c/*/*/*1 ? Feb 16 20:33:35 lets just call it CXX and thing that's it's a typo porno Feb 16 20:33:51 talk about meego please not retarded discussion about programming Feb 16 20:34:05 is this the first discussion on meego thats not about bikesheds? Feb 16 20:34:11 * CosmoHill goes back to his homework Feb 16 20:34:12 lol Feb 16 20:34:24 Qt's sigslot stuff basically cleans up all the problems with C++ anyway Feb 16 20:34:39 oh and kudos to those that can read my hand writing Feb 16 20:34:39 ugh Feb 16 20:34:54 repo updates over EDGE are sloooooow... Feb 16 20:35:05 itdock: community channels can and do vary wildly in their scope, par for the course Feb 16 20:35:13 no doubt :P Feb 16 20:35:13 i forget what that special preprocessor it uses is called, i think it begins with n? Feb 16 20:35:32 ali1234: it's not a preprocessor Feb 16 20:35:42 ok, what is it then? Feb 16 20:35:45 moc reads C++ and generates an extra file to be added to the compilation Feb 16 20:35:55 Meta Object Compiler Feb 16 20:36:01 yeah that's it Feb 16 20:36:12 well, however it works, it solved all the problems i ever had with C++ Feb 16 20:36:17 but there's also the UI Compiler (uic) and the resource compiler (rcc) Feb 16 20:36:47 I'm just saying to preempt any discussions of "Qt is not C++" Feb 16 20:37:13 by claiming that a preprocessor is not a preprocessor? =p Feb 16 20:37:15 so "public slot:" is valid C++ and not in fact, getting fixed by moc? Feb 16 20:37:22 it isnt Feb 16 20:37:40 try to compile it with the no-keywords flag Feb 16 20:38:01 #define slot Feb 16 20:38:16 mikhas: because it's not a preprocessor in the sense that cpp is Feb 16 20:38:32 whilst your speaching of C++ could you help me? Feb 16 20:38:46 I won't give you the answer to your homework Feb 16 20:38:57 but I don't mind giving you a nudge in the right direction Feb 16 20:39:00 this is only a tiny part and I don't think it's even on the tutoral Feb 16 20:39:15 what spec hardware is being considered the base? ie maemo currently has a rootfs with 256mb and very tight constraints, is the normal system on all platforms going to adhere to that or will the differentiation on platforms continue to be divided and deeply entrenched Feb 16 20:39:16 in the example we have a class called itemClass Feb 16 20:39:26 it has a public variables: itemClass *next; Feb 16 20:39:45 the title of the Meego blogs feed still says Moblin blogs. I think someone might want to update that. Feb 16 20:39:45 I want to move this to private but I'm stuck when writting the accessors and mutators Feb 16 20:40:16 lcweb: my guess is that some devices with more constraining specs will be supported Feb 16 20:41:07 i assume meego will have a reference UI? will it have a phone dialer and will it be compatible with low res 240x320 screens? Feb 16 20:41:25 wouldnt that cause problems higher up the stack though with expected capabilities and apps? we know the bloat that goes on, and until now moblin has not really had anything like the tight squeeze maemo is under Feb 16 20:41:36 ali1234: reference or sample. Feb 16 20:42:12 ali1234: it was less about individual specific apps Feb 16 20:42:21 damn people using structs Feb 16 20:42:27 more about the os itself, theres a lot that gets crammed into a core linux base Feb 16 20:42:57 even google had problems, the newest android doesnt run on the g1 (afaik i might be wrong) Feb 16 20:43:13 but it does run on a 240x320 screen Feb 16 20:43:21 Alot of the android devices are pretty much stuck with the android version they came with Feb 16 20:43:27 ali1234: resolution isnt my issue Feb 16 20:43:28 afaik the only open stack that can do so Feb 16 20:43:30 Some of them have app store access, some don't Feb 16 20:43:36 lcweb: it is mine :/ Feb 16 20:44:42 ali1234: for what reason Feb 16 20:44:44 we have android running on a device with 240x320 screen and 64mb ram Feb 16 20:44:55 is meego gonna run on it? Feb 16 20:45:16 because i would prefer a more standard linux solution Feb 16 20:45:29 but none currently exists that can run within those specs and also has a phone UI Feb 16 20:45:36 I could run that on my HP 712/80 Feb 16 20:45:39 ofc, but thats a porting issue in same way as any of hte systems are Feb 16 20:45:51 lcweb: we have ported android and the linux kernel Feb 16 20:46:06 we have ported open moko but it does not work on a low res screen, same for mer, same for ubuntu-arm Feb 16 20:46:19 gpe works, but has no phone UI Feb 16 20:46:28 the only usable thing we have is android... currently Feb 16 20:46:42 when Stskeeps was looking at mer on different resolutions, one of his problems was the scaling of app windows was not easily done, it all depends on how well qt apps scale themselves Feb 16 20:47:14 ali1234: well, I don't speak for meego but I'm pretty sure if it has enough reqs it'll run on such hw Feb 16 20:47:22 ali1234: 64 MB is a bit pushing it, but it's not impossible Feb 16 20:47:51 ram isn't the issue, screen size is. we have never had a problem with ram, even running ubuntu arm and lxde Feb 16 20:48:14 the issue is that the start button fills half the screen Feb 16 20:48:27 ali1234: im guessing its simply that x11 apps are more comfortable at high resolution Feb 16 20:48:28 ali1234: screen size? 240x320 is small in today's standards Feb 16 20:48:34 ali1234: for such a small screen, you may have to tweak the apps with your own UI Feb 16 20:48:57 thiago_home: dont apps have to respond to resize events anyway Feb 16 20:49:07 lcweb: there's usually a minimum size Feb 16 20:49:09 and the finger optimized version should already be small and light Feb 16 20:49:15 and hence rendering at half res shouldnt be a prob Feb 16 20:49:18 oh yeah, you'll always need UI work for wahtever mobile device you're creating Feb 16 20:49:27 lcweb: if you put two buttons next to each other in the UI, the minimum width is the size of those two buttons plus spacing, at least. Feb 16 20:49:49 * lcweb was rescaling liqbase from smaller than 320*240 right up without an issue in original Feb 16 20:50:02 I thought finger optimized meant making every button gigantic Feb 16 20:50:09 spacing is a misnomer ;) you should say 1mm but you say 12pixels Feb 16 20:50:09 heh Feb 16 20:50:21 so you don't miss it trying to poke it with your noise while staring at it in a crosseyed drunken haze Feb 16 20:50:34 nose* Feb 16 20:50:36 the term i used was "visible from orbit" Feb 16 20:50:52 lcweb: 1 mm is also wrong, because you could be far away from the device (like a TV) Feb 16 20:51:09 it should be angle of vision Feb 16 20:51:09 * CosmoHill does a little dance Feb 16 20:51:28 thiago_home: and on a TV you dont want finger optimized even Feb 16 20:51:30 lol thiago_home Feb 16 20:51:36 Ryback_: no, you don't :-) Feb 16 20:51:39 you are correct Feb 16 20:51:46 different set of requirements Feb 16 20:51:58 God, there's a lot of scrollback. Feb 16 20:52:04 the good part is that Qt can handle all of them quite nicely :-) Feb 16 20:52:04 spacing measured in thumbs at 24inches Feb 16 20:52:06 And I'm on the wine again. Feb 16 20:52:13 jaffa :D Feb 16 20:52:17 you shouldn't drink so much Feb 16 20:52:28 no, use bigger glasses Feb 16 20:52:48 father: "would you like a drink?" Feb 16 20:52:49 CosmoHill: Only way I can deal with all the deb vs RPM stuff in my inbox Feb 16 20:52:53 this is what happened when i installed mer: http://imagebin.org/85073 Feb 16 20:52:58 Roger: Oh I don't drink any more...or any less! Feb 16 20:53:07 haha Feb 16 20:53:16 lolol ali1234 Feb 16 20:53:21 and before you ask, yes DPI was correctly set for the screen Feb 16 20:53:23 at least you could click ok (could you?) Feb 16 20:53:48 ali1234: afaik maemo dpi is set at 92dpi or whatever normal desktop monitors are by default Feb 16 20:53:49 lcweb: yes, i could Feb 16 20:53:59 thiago_home: my link list seems to be working Feb 16 20:54:26 i have one public variable that points to the next item as I've not worked out how todo the accessors or mutaors Feb 16 20:54:34 CosmoHill: see http://congrat.ulations Feb 16 20:55:02 lcweb: this is what happened after i got through the menus: http://imagebin.org/85075 Feb 16 20:55:13 lcweb: awesome website Feb 16 20:55:39 :D Feb 16 20:55:49 ali1234: did you show those to Stskeeps Feb 16 20:55:54 ali1234: yep Feb 16 20:56:10 also, this is android running on the same phone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzlJrOBUfU Feb 16 20:57:17 ali1234: i broke my neck looking at that video Feb 16 20:57:32 srry :) Feb 16 20:58:06 * lcweb goes and carries on drinking anyway Feb 16 20:58:22 ta for chat guys \o Feb 16 20:58:25 lcweb: good plan Feb 16 20:58:36 Pancake time Feb 16 20:59:04 anyway, even if 64mb and 240x320 is limited by todays standards, does not mean you shouldn't target it. if it runs on those specs it will run just as well with higher specs. and android proves it can be done. Feb 16 21:00:31 ali1234: the point is that someone needs to do the work Feb 16 21:00:38 ali1234: and that someone requires incentive Feb 16 21:00:55 Hi, does anyone have problem to register a new account on Meego.com? I register successfully but no email is received yet. Feb 16 21:01:09 the first thing that came to my mind was "meego, meewent, meegone" :p Feb 16 21:01:22 haha Feb 16 21:01:55 anyone pronouse it like the eepc Feb 16 21:01:56 d_sun: as long as i can make a cute cartoon avatar to use as my "mee" on my meego device, i'll be happy. Feb 16 21:02:02 and in you say meeeeeeeeego Feb 16 21:02:06 aseigo: take road runner and kill the 'p' Feb 16 21:02:14 (or is that another OS/device i'm thinking of? ;) Feb 16 21:02:31 mEEEgo? Would probably draw lawsuit from Asus. Feb 16 21:02:44 CosmoHill: extra points for sounding like a female character in a japanese anime movie while doing so. Feb 16 21:03:04 as temping as it is, cross dressing isn't my think Feb 16 21:03:06 thing* Feb 16 21:03:29 Great fun, though :) Feb 16 21:05:28 hehe Feb 16 21:12:06 I'm so tempted to split my program up into files Feb 16 21:17:27 Dear god, no Drupal forums. Feb 16 21:17:29 * GeneralAntilles shudders. Feb 16 21:17:46 wow, 366 peeps in here Feb 16 21:18:08 but how many are active? Feb 16 21:18:15 3 that i know of Feb 16 21:18:31 4 Feb 16 21:18:38 5 Feb 16 21:19:05 hehe Feb 16 21:19:09 * aseigo isn't active. Feb 16 21:19:12 oops. Feb 16 21:19:16 :-) Feb 16 21:19:18 * thiago_home is watching DS9 Feb 16 21:19:22 * yngwin mostly lurks Feb 16 21:19:24 there are 584 peeps at #maemo :) Feb 16 21:19:36 thiago_home: good idea. Might be BSG for me Feb 16 21:19:43 didnt they get the memo? Feb 16 21:19:49 =] Feb 16 21:20:57 yngwin: they did, but they misread and thought it was a maemo. *erf* Feb 16 21:21:50 aseigo: Oh, that joke could run and run... Feb 16 21:22:01 GeneralAntilles: On the flip side: less Midgard? Feb 16 21:22:37 :) Feb 16 21:23:26 Jaffa, Drupal is a worse evil than Midgard. Feb 16 21:23:36 * GeneralAntilles hates Drupal with an acute passion. Feb 16 21:24:11 But still Bugzilla. :( Feb 16 21:24:28 RevdKathy: anything better exists ? Feb 16 21:24:35 (and don't say "launchpad" please) Feb 16 21:24:47 RevdKathy, waiting on 3.4 . . . Feb 16 21:25:05 LOL - I don't know. I was hoping for Bugzuki Feb 16 21:25:24 anything more user friendly. Bugzilla east bears for breakfast Feb 16 21:25:42 RevdKathy, it's the best tool for the job Feb 16 21:25:45 RevdKathy, bugzilla also works Feb 16 21:25:50 Most relevant people know it Feb 16 21:25:59 it works, it's reliable and it's effective Feb 16 21:26:16 Part of the problem is that maemo.org is running a super old version Feb 16 21:26:18 I'm just not convinced. I'd like to see it made much more useable Feb 16 21:26:26 ahh that probably doesn't help Feb 16 21:26:45 Well, submission form improvements and bug viewing improvements for non-canconfirm are fairly straightforward to implement Feb 16 21:27:06 roundup looks good Feb 16 21:32:24 no matter what is picked, people will always complain Feb 16 21:32:26 All bug trackers suck. It's just JIRA & Bugzilla suck less than the alternatives. Feb 16 21:32:32 poll: vanilla or chocolate? Feb 16 21:32:46 chocolate Feb 16 21:32:52 ice cream? Feb 16 21:33:07 rhetorical. the fact that people answer proves my point. Feb 16 21:33:17 :P Feb 16 21:33:35 auke: Probably vanilla Feb 16 21:33:42 chocolate, obviously Feb 16 21:33:43 ahaha Feb 16 21:34:23 actually, I've searched every supermarket here for pear myself. :( Feb 16 21:34:42 pear with chocolate, now that's something! Feb 16 21:34:44 Mrs Jaffa would always go for chocolate Feb 16 21:35:01 auke, so you've decided already and didn't really want to consult the community! Feb 16 21:35:10 Jaffa: whenever i see your name I always think "cake" Feb 16 21:35:12 shame on you Feb 16 21:35:24 G'night all Feb 16 21:35:30 bye RevdKathy Feb 16 21:35:39 jku_: actually, polls are a bad way to make decisions, they're a good way to get an idea of peoples opinions though Feb 16 21:36:23 CosmoHill: Indeed. A good thought to have :) Feb 16 21:36:28 if people can't decide whether vanilla or chocolate is better, how are they going to decide on stuff that is much less clear? :) Feb 16 21:37:51 actually, the important stuff is usually easy to decide on, it's the bikeshedding over meaningless details that generates most heat tho Feb 16 21:37:55 auke: because everything is a conspiracy by the ARM saboteurs. Feb 16 21:38:33 heat makes ice melt. I'd rather have solid frozen ice cream in my least-favorite flavor, than a puddle Feb 16 21:38:43 hehe Feb 16 21:38:44 * GeneralAntilles likes the idea of conning Intel and Nokia into purchasing and opensourcing vBulletin. Feb 16 21:39:12 Since every single open source BBS sucks. Feb 16 21:39:19 that'd be one way to use it on meego Feb 16 21:39:33 GeneralAntilles: yeah i've wondered how come Feb 16 21:40:10 except theyd then open source it and merge it with drupal to form some monster offspring with a chipper but really awful name Feb 16 21:40:19 GeneralAntilles: i don't understand the big hoohaa with a paid forum Feb 16 21:41:25 Stskeeps, because it's not painful to use? Feb 16 21:41:33 Stskeeps, or the issue with using the software? Feb 16 21:41:41 GeneralAntilles: latter Feb 16 21:41:42 I think he means the issue with using it Feb 16 21:41:57 i'd want the tmo experience still Feb 16 21:42:12 Stskeeps, yeah, me too. Feb 16 21:42:20 Minus some of the flaming, but yeah. ;) Feb 16 21:42:44 cos i will have to go into rehab to kick the addiction otherwise. Feb 16 21:42:51 How the hell do I confirm my email for mediawiki. . . . Feb 16 21:43:19 Ah, I see. Feb 16 21:43:25 We should turn anon editing on. Feb 16 21:44:29 what is the differents between Feb 16 21:44:30 itemClass *headnode Feb 16 21:44:31 and Feb 16 21:44:35 itemClass* headnode Feb 16 21:44:56 nothing Feb 16 21:44:57 none Feb 16 21:45:06 just style then Feb 16 21:45:09 okay, thanks Feb 16 21:45:22 why are you multiplying itemClass with headnode? Feb 16 21:45:26 thats' odd ;) Feb 16 21:45:37 to be precise: the difference is a bikeshed Feb 16 21:45:45 haha Feb 16 21:45:49 bikeshed!!! Feb 16 21:45:56 trip0: it's a pointer Feb 16 21:46:08 CosmoHill, i know. I was just making a lame joke Feb 16 21:46:17 hehe Feb 16 21:47:46 "Finding MeeGo". Coming to a cinema near you. Feb 16 21:48:30 lol Feb 16 21:49:06 finding maemo Feb 16 21:58:01 * CosmoHill jumps onto chilan Feb 16 22:00:14 huh? Feb 16 22:01:04 * CosmoHill shurgs Feb 16 22:04:30 just got back from the Maemo forum. Lots of FUD, unhappy people Feb 16 22:04:39 and silence here ..... Feb 16 22:05:46 FUD? Feb 16 22:06:16 Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt Feb 16 22:07:15 yay? Feb 16 22:07:16 jackthe: we've had a storm the last 2 days Feb 16 22:07:21 everyone wondering what is going to happen to their new expensive devices :) Feb 16 22:07:26 it's finally slowing down a little Feb 16 22:07:41 jackthe: any more than they were between the maemo 5 -> maemo 6 thing ? Feb 16 22:08:12 I'm still connected to my bluetooth mouse upstairs Feb 16 22:08:27 arjan: the news is starting to sink in Feb 16 22:08:51 jackthe: I don't think meego does anything in that area btw that maemo 6 didn't already dp Feb 16 22:08:52 do Feb 16 22:08:53 n900 getting maemo6 complaints started to die down but now its all started again b/c meego lol Feb 16 22:08:54 and people are either well pi**ed off or accepting Feb 16 22:09:07 in fact it's likely that meego helps more than hurts in that regard Feb 16 22:09:29 god I hope the deb/rpm thread goes away over the next few days, if I see another "Hi, I don't know anything about what I'm about to talk about, but I think blah email on that topic I'll poke out my eyes Feb 16 22:09:32 i will wait and see Feb 16 22:09:55 slaine: yes, well sick off the deb/rpm thing Feb 16 22:09:56 slaine_: yeah; I'm also tired of people who aren't even maemo contributors jumping in loudly to stir the pot Feb 16 22:10:04 that is just the weirdest thing Feb 16 22:10:09 yes i agree but its the fact they think nokia are ignoring the question of official support what gets them going Feb 16 22:10:38 whyhi: any statement that doesnt come true can lead to a lawsuit Feb 16 22:11:22 is auke about? Feb 16 22:11:27 I think it is the fact that Nokia/Itel must have been working on this deal for 6 months or more Feb 16 22:11:42 and most everyone had no idea Feb 16 22:11:58 they feel like they have been lied to. Feb 16 22:12:01 like i've said many times i dont want answers i dont even care if support comes fine if not it will come other ways and i'll buy a next device any way and donate n900 to a project Feb 16 22:12:05 My 2 pence Feb 16 22:12:33 people should see n900 as a computer that can be upgraded by custom images Feb 16 22:13:08 official support or not.. who cares if its possible to get fixes Feb 16 22:13:09 yes, i see my n900 as a small computer. I just want the ability to improve it Feb 16 22:13:19 I knew it was total flame war bate, but god, I'm taken aback by the sheer level in inanity in the posts Feb 16 22:13:22 it still lacks in many areas Feb 16 22:13:46 slaine: yes, there has been a flood! Feb 16 22:13:47 bbl Feb 16 22:13:52 people are stupid! isn't it great? Feb 16 22:13:53 the ability to improve it already exists you dont need to wait for anyone else Feb 16 22:14:23 itdock: lol, news at 11 Feb 16 22:15:03 whyhi: agree but I have a day job, and that takes more than just the day :) Feb 16 22:16:43 is there an rpm/yum/zypper equiv to apt-cacher ? Feb 16 22:16:50 * CosmoHill is to tired to deal with c++ Feb 16 22:17:02 there won't be rpm Feb 16 22:17:07 maybe yum / yast Feb 16 22:18:15 lbt, what does apt-cacher do ? Feb 16 22:18:20 heh Feb 16 22:18:27 caches for apt :) Feb 16 22:18:39 doesn't it also allow you to search? Feb 16 22:18:41 what does APT need caching? Feb 16 22:18:45 apt-cache search libc Feb 16 22:18:56 essentially it means that any host on my LAN will use a caching proxy to get .debs Feb 16 22:19:20 apt proxy basically ? Feb 16 22:19:23 so when I create multiple VMs etc etc it saves my poor adsl line Feb 16 22:19:34 it's a server solutio Feb 16 22:19:36 n Feb 16 22:19:51 kinda like a focused 'squid' Feb 16 22:20:20 so any aptitude/apt or other download will go via the apt-cacher server Feb 16 22:21:35 since I expect to be installing dl'ing a fair few times and I need to learn "the rpm/yum/yast/zypper way" Feb 16 22:22:06 can't say I've ever done exactly that, but I typically pul down the repo and use create repo to host a mirror internally Feb 16 22:22:28 heh - you don't mirror debian's repo :) Feb 16 22:23:02 I guess we need to get used to the scale difference Feb 16 22:23:02 your not, your mirroring meego's Feb 16 22:23:19 you only have to pull down the pacakges you want Feb 16 22:23:37 slaine - and apt-cacher does exactly that... Feb 16 22:24:10 sorry - sounds like I'm complaining - I'm not meaning to Feb 16 22:24:17 this is the part where you learn something new Feb 16 22:24:21 :) Feb 16 22:26:07 How can anyone ensure that Intel will not use Meego to force down its processors down our throats? Maemo comes from ARM processors. Feb 16 22:26:08 of course, that doesn't mean there isn't an equivilant, I'm just not aware of one Feb 16 22:26:18 ptl, I don't think we can Feb 16 22:26:27 And BTW, will meego inherit Maemo 6's DRM? Feb 16 22:26:35 ptl, I think we just have to take the statements that that's not the intention at face value. Feb 16 22:26:37 ptl: you can. it's open source. you can rebuild yourself for any architecture. Feb 16 22:26:44 ptl: easy, keep your mouth closed Feb 16 22:26:46 will Meego replace Moblin or Maemo? Feb 16 22:26:54 both Feb 16 22:26:59 meego will replace both moblin and maemo Feb 16 22:27:01 meh Feb 16 22:27:17 guipc, MeeGo is Moblin + Maemo Feb 16 22:27:19 auke: got a minute Feb 16 22:27:21 guipc, so, yes. Feb 16 22:27:25 so, Maemo and Moblin projects will be soon closed? Feb 16 22:27:30 yes Feb 16 22:27:30 what about DRM? Feb 16 22:27:38 GeneralAntilles: told you, ARM saboteur cabal Feb 16 22:27:41 ptl: also, you can yourself ensure that by buying CPU's that you prefer over anything else Feb 16 22:28:05 auke: lol, ok. Feb 16 22:28:07 Stskeeps, honestly I'm with them, just not quite so cynical. :P Feb 16 22:28:26 lbt: ? Feb 16 22:28:30 recent email : RPM vs DEB, the FAQ item? Feb 16 22:28:40 "(because we want it to be incompatible: it gives us a benefit)." Feb 16 22:28:51 the concept of limiting available pkgs Feb 16 22:29:01 I'm quite concerned Feb 16 22:29:11 that's not the goal of being incompatible Feb 16 22:29:14 one of the major pains for the community in maemo Feb 16 22:29:23 limitting available pkgs? what do you mean, lbt? Feb 16 22:29:30 the goal is to make a more efficient OS Feb 16 22:29:30 how can they limit that? Feb 16 22:29:33 I have just one more question, applications for Meego will be compatible with the N900 (it uses Maemo) or Maemo "support" for N900 users will disappear? Feb 16 22:29:34 On a related note, will MeeGo adopt Maemo's list of categories? Feb 16 22:29:35 was that we had to port all the deps for pkgs we want to port Feb 16 22:29:41 we don't want to limit the choice of packages to people at all Feb 16 22:29:54 we do want to make sure the default user doesn't get packages that they do not need Feb 16 22:30:00 so maemo-extras filled with libs that were 'ported' and abandoned Feb 16 22:30:04 agreed Feb 16 22:30:13 and all the touch/power/ue issues Feb 16 22:30:14 guipc, both are Qt 4.6 Feb 16 22:30:18 for desktop apps - sure Feb 16 22:30:24 guipc, so, generally speaking, yes, compatible. Feb 16 22:30:27 I get that - we aimed for that in Mer too Feb 16 22:30:30 but even we want the packages themselves (spec files for instance) to be minimal Feb 16 22:30:40 auke: since you seem to know better, I am worried about the interface of N900. I think it's a fantastic work done there, all the concepts. Will it be abandoned or extensively changed? Feb 16 22:30:46 OK - for meego apps - sure (again) Feb 16 22:30:58 I'm more concerned about the lower/middle layers Feb 16 22:31:07 I unfortunately have no idea about most of the UI plans... Feb 16 22:31:15 thanks to you all, you helped me a lot, are you developers or members of Meego project? Feb 16 22:31:18 I hope nothing gets lost ;) Feb 16 22:31:18 the ability to pull in from a massive (eg fedora) upstream middleware Feb 16 22:31:22 ok... Feb 16 22:31:27 guipc, I'm just a Maemo Community guy. Feb 16 22:31:32 You know Feb 16 22:31:38 the ability to pull from fedora (e.g.) comes at a huge cost Feb 16 22:31:40 I feel very insecure about meego Feb 16 22:31:46 tough :) Feb 16 22:31:49 because with the N900 nokia just 'seemed to get it right' Feb 16 22:31:50 we don't want to pay that cost for mobile platforms Feb 16 22:31:51 ptl, Maemo 6 should indicate the tablet/phone UI plans for MeeGo. Feb 16 22:31:57 well - that's the problem Feb 16 22:32:02 we say "this isn't a phone" Feb 16 22:32:08 "it's a computer" Feb 16 22:32:18 "but we're going to cripple it" Feb 16 22:32:21 ptl, nothing prevents you from just using n900... Feb 16 22:32:24 it combined harmonically certain parts of open source and mobile phone software... and that was a very rare balance of stuff Feb 16 22:32:26 so that doesn't fly :) Feb 16 22:32:40 although I respect the cost arguement Feb 16 22:32:42 ptl, it should be better in Maemo 6 and MeeGo. Feb 16 22:32:57 I rather see it from the other perspective: it's a phone, BUT we can make it do more cool stuff Feb 16 22:33:02 Many people are comparing Maemo with Symbian, will Symbian disappear? Feb 16 22:33:07 jku_: I do, but I understand at some time in the future there will be a new, more powerful device Feb 16 22:33:10 One of the huge benefits we found in Mer was the availability of the upstream 'universe' Feb 16 22:33:17 guipc: don't think so Feb 16 22:33:20 not for the moment Feb 16 22:33:22 auke: and what about a tablet device? Feb 16 22:33:23 Mer is not compatible with the N900, or is it? Feb 16 22:33:24 or a netbook Feb 16 22:33:27 ptl, progress comes with change. we all need to deal with that Feb 16 22:33:27 or a big netbook Feb 16 22:33:32 guipc, Symbian is going to occupy Nokia's mid-range segment in the shortterm and likely the mid- and low-end stuff in the long. Feb 16 22:33:34 or a desktop Feb 16 22:33:34 computers have 102key keyboards Feb 16 22:33:39 and 24inch screens Feb 16 22:33:46 and a picture of your mother on the desktop Feb 16 22:33:51 and mice Feb 16 22:33:55 For what case would be Symbian better than Meego? Feb 16 22:33:55 lol Feb 16 22:33:57 (well, something like that) Feb 16 22:34:07 non smart phones? Feb 16 22:34:12 yep Feb 16 22:34:16 auke, one of my computers has a 3.5" screen and fits in my pocket. Feb 16 22:34:22 GeneralAntilles: I'm understanding now, thank you Feb 16 22:34:25 i don't think meego would run on my SE K800i Feb 16 22:34:26 I agree that meego should work to minimise the shipping distro Feb 16 22:34:31 also, I really think that for most desktop PC's a /moblinesque/ base distro is more than enough Feb 16 22:34:32 in its page it does not even mention it in the feature matrix Feb 16 22:34:42 but it loses so much when it loses compatibiilty with the rest of linux Feb 16 22:34:45 vf android Feb 16 22:34:47 cf Feb 16 22:34:49 guipc, Maemo/MeeGo doesn't do non-touchscreen, low-resolution, low-cost devices well. Feb 16 22:34:53 and I think everyone would love to have their computers boot in 5 seconds Feb 16 22:34:56 guipc, thus, Symbian. Feb 16 22:35:23 guipc: note however that the Symbian UI will also be based on Qt and will also be cross plattform :) Feb 16 22:35:27 auke, personally, I don't care since i rarely reboot any of my computers. Feb 16 22:35:29 auke, have you seen the litl? Feb 16 22:35:32 auke and many would like the freedom to choose 7 seconds if they judge the benefit worthwhile Feb 16 22:35:41 mikhas: litl? Feb 16 22:35:43 Stskeeps: feel free to interject ;) Feb 16 22:35:46 i'm willing to accept 30 second boots if i have an OS that allows me to do more than just shuffle around pictures of my contacts and go on facebook Feb 16 22:35:47 http://litl.com/ Feb 16 22:36:14 it seems to me there's a fundamental difference here Feb 16 22:36:33 facebook is popular in the US Feb 16 22:36:45 Personally I feel the lack of compatibility with a 'proper/big' distro is a significant problem.. and this is not me. This is observation of the maemo community Feb 16 22:36:45 ali1234, that's a total strawman Feb 16 22:36:47 but in Brazil orkut champions the social networks Feb 16 22:37:18 We have seen the pain that maemo suffered when it lagged behind debian Feb 16 22:37:18 lbt: and that's a good point... but compatibility is ... mostly around LSB for anything not deep core Feb 16 22:37:22 I personally don't like facebook that much, too much of its content is locked down Feb 16 22:37:38 About Symbian UI, it will be unified by Symbian Foundation or S60 and anothers UI for Symbian will exist? Feb 16 22:37:42 arjan: how can this be addressed - at least monitored and respected Feb 16 22:38:14 guipc, good question. I don't know. Feb 16 22:38:16 I'm wondering about a technical proposal type thing - something to allow discussion and potential solutions Feb 16 22:38:20 lbt: LSB is there, and meego needs to be LSB compliant (at least if you install optional packages. Running "cups" on my phone makes no sense as default) Feb 16 22:38:35 lbt: yes, there are always downsides to picking an alternate strategy, and upsides Feb 16 22:38:38 and afaik that has been the understanding from everyone from the start Feb 16 22:38:43 arjan, lots of people would disagree with you there. Feb 16 22:38:43 default - I agree Feb 16 22:38:47 of course Feb 16 22:38:57 jku_: is it? what can i really customize on N900 or moblin, without porting the software myself? does moblin offer me a choice between KDE and Gnome? Feb 16 22:38:58 speaking about cups Feb 16 22:38:59 * CosmoHill offers rice pudding Feb 16 22:39:04 is there any printing framework for mobiles? Feb 16 22:39:10 this is about allowing cups to be installed Feb 16 22:39:12 ptl: not that I know of Feb 16 22:39:14 guipc: yep Feb 16 22:39:19 when we have OTG working Feb 16 22:39:32 nothing stops anyone from installing cups on moblin right now, for instance. Feb 16 22:39:32 and we can allow businesses to plug in a usb printer Feb 16 22:39:42 so, goodbye S60. Feb 16 22:39:50 agreed - but it needs *all* the supporting libs to be cross-ported Feb 16 22:39:53 auke: yeah we even ship cups as an option Feb 16 22:40:00 and it's a great example Feb 16 22:40:00 ali1234: no KDE on moblin currently Feb 16 22:40:02 (mostly for LSB) Feb 16 22:40:06 is cups in Meego Feb 16 22:40:10 it will be Feb 16 22:40:13 pretend it isn't :) Feb 16 22:40:19 I don't see why we would cut it out of it Feb 16 22:40:29 well, how many pkgs in Meego Feb 16 22:40:32 space Feb 16 22:40:35 how many in fedora Feb 16 22:40:43 zxcv: default install vs optional component Feb 16 22:40:45 ah cups Feb 16 22:40:46 how many do you want? Feb 16 22:40:48 (it is fedora derived? yes?) Feb 16 22:40:53 lbt: what does fedora have to do with this Feb 16 22:40:55 lbt: no. Feb 16 22:41:00 i have a feeling if i had a netbook it would blow up everytime i printed Feb 16 22:41:01 OK - sorry Feb 16 22:41:07 arjan: reasonable Feb 16 22:41:12 what is the upstream/base for Moblin? Feb 16 22:41:15 while we borrow some pieces from fedora, it's not a "fedora with changes" OS Feb 16 22:41:21 nothing. moblin is upstream to moblin Feb 16 22:41:34 lbt: we built the OS up from the bottom, while we borrowed pieces from others, that was a short term "get going" thing for non core pieces Feb 16 22:41:35 auke: take the average of the number of packages in fedora, ubuntu, suse, slackware and average it. i want that many Feb 16 22:41:37 guipc: have a look here http://zchydem.enume.net/?p=561 Feb 16 22:41:41 *nod* Feb 16 22:41:49 ali1234: I want more Feb 16 22:41:53 ali1234: we all want 12 media players ;) Feb 16 22:41:59 OK- so I had read too much fedora stuff Feb 16 22:42:00 yes! Feb 16 22:42:12 ali1234, you are using polarized, extreme arguments. that makes for a boring discussion Feb 16 22:42:13 but none of those are really core OS, they're in the app domain, and need to live in an app space to be honest Feb 16 22:42:18 more is better. we don't want to limit anyone from making more apckages. Feb 16 22:42:32 and the issue then becomes we need devs to maintain any pkgs we adopt into meego Feb 16 22:42:42 as with the moblin community, I really would encourage people from making their own repositories as well Feb 16 22:42:43 (statements, just for clarity) Feb 16 22:42:52 some people have, and I think that's great. Feb 16 22:43:05 lbt: it's the same always. the things people care about get maintained, the things nobody cares about end up going away Feb 16 22:43:09 ali1234: that's the point Feb 16 22:43:19 In maemo there was a period when there were a zillion add-on repositories, all slightly incompatible with eachother Feb 16 22:43:20 (for instance, I maintain the Xfce4 packages for moblin atm) Feb 16 22:43:25 arjan: the point is to reuse effort Feb 16 22:43:28 now it's down for most part to only 3 Feb 16 22:43:36 it should be easy to have packages that tie with "good" upstreams quickly Feb 16 22:43:52 so we can take advantage of the QA processes in pkg maintenance for 'other distros' Feb 16 22:43:56 perhaps fedora can use meego as upstream in the future :) Feb 16 22:43:57 for a "good" upstream, the actual packaging and maintenance effort should be as close to zero as we can Feb 16 22:44:04 hmm Feb 16 22:44:10 so does meego have a perl team Feb 16 22:44:15 and a python team? Feb 16 22:44:24 things like that? Feb 16 22:44:29 sure Feb 16 22:44:41 OK - we don't know these things :) Feb 16 22:44:50 we have package owners for those yes, and with maemo joining we'll have more people to pay attention to important stuff Feb 16 22:44:55 And who're they and where are they doing the work? Feb 16 22:45:12 Jaffa: we know the process is being opened - that I beleive Feb 16 22:45:14 ie Feb 16 22:45:34 Jaffa: give us a week or two to open all that up Feb 16 22:45:40 arjan: ok Feb 16 22:45:46 and this is not a "moblin owns all" thing Feb 16 22:45:53 I am thinking that we need to work with other distros to minimise replication of effort Feb 16 22:45:53 this is why it is important to join forces Feb 16 22:45:58 what is being opened? Feb 16 22:46:06 CosmoHill: whole build system and infrastructure Feb 16 22:46:10 ah Feb 16 22:46:15 and docs aroudn that etc Feb 16 22:46:15 sounds...painful Feb 16 22:46:19 arjan: That was going to be my next question - is the "MeeGo (Perl|Python) Team" the "Moblin $1 team"? Feb 16 22:46:29 Jaffa: I hope it won't be Feb 16 22:46:30 CosmoHill: it's like going to the dentist and opening your mouth Feb 16 22:46:44 last time I did that he removed a tooth Feb 16 22:46:46 I hope it's a joint thing... otherwise meego failed Feb 16 22:46:56 arjan: and DVCS systems and bugtrackers? Feb 16 22:46:56 fortunately, at the end, you leave with a clean mouth-feeling :) Feb 16 22:47:00 so you want intel and nokia to both do :o Feb 16 22:47:01 (being opened) Feb 16 22:47:02 lbt: there is a fine line there Feb 16 22:47:06 I know Feb 16 22:47:10 that's why I asked Feb 16 22:47:14 lbt: for "good upstream", other distros right now don't do the right thing imo Feb 16 22:47:25 for "good upstream", the amount of effort that goes into packaging is just too much Feb 16 22:47:26 yeah, they all have issues Feb 16 22:47:28 for all distros Feb 16 22:47:31 lbt, the moblin bugzilla is already open by default Feb 16 22:47:37 arjan: Ages ago, I got the impression Nokia were looking for a better base than Maemo so they could focus on "core competencies" - so are you hoping it's joint with Nokia devs been working in this area on Maemo (basically porting upstream Debian packages and maintaining them for 5 years) or that it'll pull non-Moblin community folk in? Feb 16 22:47:38 *nod* Feb 16 22:47:57 lbt: git likewise Feb 16 22:48:05 we're working on tools to where we aim to minimize the work it takes to package a good upstream... and sadly other distros right now don't do that Feb 16 22:48:06 http://pymaemo.garage.maemo.org/ - the PyMaemo team are a good example though, as Python's practically a tier 1 platform for Maemo which isn't run by Nokia. Feb 16 22:48:25 arjan: spectacle etc Feb 16 22:48:33 (they are very personally involved with their packaging... even for things where it shouldn't be "special" to do packaging) Feb 16 22:48:35 exactly Feb 16 22:48:40 arjan: So if you're looking for contacts for the MeeGo Python team, Anderson Lizardo et al should be tapped up Feb 16 22:49:00 nontheless the maintainer role is about adjusting upstream to distro policy Feb 16 22:49:07 eg 5sec boot process Feb 16 22:49:26 so packaging for a new policy is an intellegent job Feb 16 22:49:43 lbt: here is where not all packages are equal Feb 16 22:49:43 when the make install does debian/fedora based things Feb 16 22:49:49 more core packages need more work Feb 16 22:49:50 *nod* Feb 16 22:49:55 while "application" level stuff should be made easy Feb 16 22:50:10 I am more concerened about non-app stuff Feb 16 22:50:16 I rather make the application/"good upstream" stuff so easy/low work, that the people can then spend their time on the others ;) Feb 16 22:50:18 I want to reuse that in my touchy apps :) Feb 16 22:50:34 I don't care about upstream apps - the ui is wrong Feb 16 22:50:40 gui apps Feb 16 22:50:54 I care about upstream parsers/codecs/libraries Feb 16 22:51:05 mysql/microldap Feb 16 22:51:07 etc etc Feb 16 22:51:14 (just scoping) Feb 16 22:51:55 so here is where "good upstream" comes in :) Feb 16 22:52:00 depends how tricky things are Feb 16 22:52:02 I do realise that a lot of this is for non-phone targets Feb 16 22:52:08 * lbt listens Feb 16 22:52:12 more and more things are being "good upstream" lately Feb 16 22:52:16 autoconf, pkgconfig etc Feb 16 22:52:23 following FHS Feb 16 22:52:43 OK Feb 16 22:52:49 yes there's grotty stuff Feb 16 22:52:53 and core stuff that needs tweaking Feb 16 22:53:08 but we can do that properly if we make the other half low effort Feb 16 22:53:21 so a focus on making packaging more sane Feb 16 22:53:22 making good upstream easy to get going, also makes it easier to get a wide range of apps and tools in Feb 16 22:53:41 for me, the ideal flow for "good upstream" is Feb 16 22:53:49 (because there *is* a lot of cruft in debian) Feb 16 22:53:49 Initially you give an URL to a tool with the upstream tarbal. Feb 16 22:54:00 * CosmoHill is tired Feb 16 22:54:02 it makes a bunch of files based on inspection etc; you sanity check, and approve Feb 16 22:54:05 and that's it Feb 16 22:54:07 then Feb 16 22:54:07 I shouldn't have gone to bed at 2am last night Feb 16 22:54:10 damn you moblin Feb 16 22:54:21 2 weeks later you get an email "upstream for this released a new release" Feb 16 22:54:31 you click on the url, read the release notes etc Feb 16 22:54:35 click "ok upgrade my package" Feb 16 22:54:41 you then test the resulting binary Feb 16 22:54:48 and trigger a QA regression storm Feb 16 22:54:50 and then say "ok it's good, move it to the process" Feb 16 22:55:05 OK Feb 16 22:55:08 which includes automated qa tools and for those components where human qa is important, human qa Feb 16 22:55:21 of course this is a little utopia right now Feb 16 22:55:30 but the closer we can get to this for "good uptream" the better Feb 16 22:55:41 that sounds like most 'packaging' roles for most distros though Feb 16 22:55:46 and I rather spend time getting "almost good upstream" to be "good upstream" via patches, than spending time and time again on packaging it Feb 16 22:55:55 debian has it's "monitor upstream" automation Feb 16 22:56:02 lbt: in moblin we do it Feb 16 22:56:09 what is missing is the ease of flow for the common cases Feb 16 22:56:28 click a button, get a apt/yum/whatever update to your testbox, give it a quick spin and click one more button Feb 16 22:56:32 arjan: do you work on meego? Feb 16 22:56:40 CosmoHill: yes. Feb 16 22:56:44 awesome Feb 16 22:56:50 that is why you're shiney Feb 16 22:56:57 question: is it worth buying an N900 with this news coming out? Feb 16 22:57:08 arjan: I should say I'm talking here as a community/Mer guy, not a nokia build guy :) Feb 16 22:57:09 mikestaszel: this news does not impact n900 in any way that I can see. Feb 16 22:57:10 mikestaszel, it doesn't change anything for N900 Feb 16 22:57:41 lbt: as community mer guy, if it's easier to package teh easier packages... you can spend your time on those things that matter Feb 16 22:57:47 i know, but new devices might be coming out and with meego...so i have a dilemma :P Feb 16 22:57:49 like picking the versions, but also on the more hard pacakges Feb 16 22:58:08 One of the things I see in maemo was people casually ported dependencies and then abandonded them Feb 16 22:58:21 * CosmoHill blinks Feb 16 22:58:22 we used to have that in moblin too Feb 16 22:58:26 how is that handled? Feb 16 22:58:30 and we had a huge mess we're still cleaning up Feb 16 22:58:31 the Nokia N96 is more than my car :( Feb 16 22:58:34 arjan, so packaging will be more like moblin in meego, correct? RPMs? Feb 16 22:58:40 mikestaszel: yes Feb 16 22:58:48 yep Feb 16 22:58:50 lbt: we're trying hard to move more and more to autopackaging Feb 16 22:59:02 mikestaszel, well, before now we excepted that there would be a new device at the end of the year with maemo 6. Now it might be Maemo 6 with Meego API compatibility. Of course, someone else might come out with a Meego device before Nokia comes out with its own next device, but we don't know anything about that, or even if it would be a phone or not Feb 16 22:59:04 lbt: at which point we can enforce rules via tools on quality of packaging Feb 16 22:59:05 i've gotta jump on the bandwagon then haha Feb 16 22:59:13 arjan: so you run a script and it makes the package for you? Feb 16 22:59:25 CosmoHill: that's the ultimate goal. we are not there yet. Feb 16 22:59:34 and it will only work for "good" packages Feb 16 22:59:34 good luck with it Feb 16 22:59:40 arjan: interesting, you mean you import from packaging from other distros? Feb 16 22:59:41 maybe in the summer I could help you guys Feb 16 22:59:42 (where "good" means autoconf, pkgconfig) Feb 16 22:59:43 a script for RPM packages? Like rpmbuild? haha Feb 16 22:59:49 now I really should focus on my studies Feb 16 22:59:51 w00t: we used to for some cases. and it hurts Feb 16 23:00:10 arjan: then perhaps i misunderstand - where are you looking at importing from, automatically? Feb 16 23:00:16 I could certainly understand autopackaging being run against, say, fedora packages Feb 16 23:00:22 no I'm not talking about automatic important Feb 16 23:00:31 import Feb 16 23:00:35 I have less confidence working against random upstreams Feb 16 23:00:48 if a package uses autoconf and pkgconfig, you can get almost all the things you need from the configure.ac Feb 16 23:01:02 as long as the configure.ac is ok Feb 16 23:01:09 (if not, we need some override and then submit a patch ;-) Feb 16 23:01:18 anyway... need to run to a meeting (blarg) Feb 16 23:01:20 arjan: how many people in the world understand autoconf Feb 16 23:01:24 2 repositories i assume, x86 and arm? Feb 16 23:01:36 lbt: it seems about half the packages we have do it ;) Feb 16 23:01:42 mikestaszel: maybe 3 Feb 16 23:01:43 all the gnome, X, etc stuff uses it Feb 16 23:01:45 arjan: Your dream for packaging upstream sounds like http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/ (not that I'd suggest using it in any form, but it's nice to know my dream is shared ;-)) Feb 16 23:01:50 x86, arm and noarch Feb 16 23:01:51 * lbt wonders how many of the Debian pkgs do... Feb 16 23:02:02 thinks like man pages and boot script would be noarch Feb 16 23:02:02 and all the non 'C' packages Feb 16 23:02:02 lol, i meant noarch too i guess :P Feb 16 23:02:13 mikestaszel, Maemo 6 was never promised to work on N900. Some people think that the meego move improves chances that N900 will be able to run Maemo 6, maybe. At the very least it should be easier to make an unsupported meego run on N900 than an unsupported Maemo6.. Feb 16 23:02:15 ok the guy is not there Feb 16 23:02:17 yep i know Feb 16 23:02:18 i wonder if there would be x86_64 Feb 16 23:02:28 heh - no meeting? Feb 16 23:02:31 not yet ;) Feb 16 23:02:34 good news for a chance ;) Feb 16 23:02:41 now for non-C ... perl is relatively OK Feb 16 23:02:44 CPAN for the win there Feb 16 23:03:06 bleugh, perl Feb 16 23:03:39 python.. not sure exactly yet, but parsing for "import" likely goes a long way as well Feb 16 23:04:17 well we then end up with the python egg things Feb 16 23:04:26 but I'm not a python expert Feb 16 23:04:30 neither am I Feb 16 23:04:32 anyway Feb 16 23:04:49 investing in good tools to make packagers lifes easy is something I consider really important Feb 16 23:04:55 I know that when you have python helper apps then packaging them for the distro is a pain in debian Feb 16 23:04:58 mh, are both, moblin & maemo merged, or will there be seperate projects available ? I thought they are completely merged and work towards Meego 1.0 But according to this channel, there is something called maemo 6 coming out ? o.0 Feb 16 23:05:02 I am confused :) Feb 16 23:05:24 votan: maemo 6 as a branding doesn't exist any more Feb 16 23:05:26 arjan: OK - I'd like to see some FAQ stuff around this approach Feb 16 23:05:35 w00t: the very FAQ-man Feb 16 23:05:43 votan, things don't happen overnight... Feb 16 23:05:45 votan: it will be released under the meego branding, *but* it won't be meego completely, as such Feb 16 23:05:57 lbt: and I'm afraid to say that I do not see other distros invest a lot (or not enough to my taste) in this kind of thing Feb 16 23:06:00 but allegedly fully meego compatible Feb 16 23:06:10 lbt: if you can explain to me in slightly abstract concepts what you want, i'm happy to badger people and mail the list until it happens Feb 16 23:06:17 mh, k. ah well, as long ass meego 1.0 looks as the pic under the netbook page suggests I am all happy :> got used to my moblin interface Feb 16 23:06:28 heh - start by c'n'p the backlog w00t Feb 16 23:06:42 arjan: that's a good community story too Feb 16 23:06:51 lbt: how far back, approx? i'm not completely following atm as i'm getting ready to sleep Feb 16 23:07:35 to the start, its only 2 days and very compressable, all those rpm/deb references are very compressible Feb 16 23:07:45 arjan: I think the more technical members (me!) would like to see some more concrete examples (and pipedreams) of the 'automated package' for a distribution of upstreams Feb 16 23:08:07 lbt: yeah some of this is still vision only ;-) Feb 16 23:08:15 but we've gotten a lot closer lately Feb 16 23:08:23 that's cool - we can acknowledge and seek contributions Feb 16 23:08:27 and we have several people working just on tools like this Feb 16 23:09:26 hmm - I'm also wondering if this affects how patch mgmt is done - things like guilt Feb 16 23:09:32 was there a moblin 3 in the works (in the same way maemo6 was o nthe way) is there any documentation about it if so? Feb 16 23:10:04 arjan: where are you based in the world? Feb 16 23:10:15 from a consumer point of view, the next "big thing" I expected was moblin 2.2 Feb 16 23:10:18 zxcv, moblin 2.2 is what we work(ed) on, an what will be a meego release Feb 16 23:10:43 mainly for the vpn-connectivity added to connmanager :) Feb 16 23:10:48 lbt: I'm currently in portland Feb 16 23:10:57 arjan: That sounds USey Feb 16 23:11:01 it is Feb 16 23:11:08 moved from the netherlands to portland a few years ago Feb 16 23:11:08 USexy? Feb 16 23:11:09 so we will have meego1.0(maemo side) and meego1.0(moblin side) as standalone releases in consumer products at the same time? Feb 16 23:11:14 * Jaffa needs to check for us Brits ;-) Feb 16 23:11:21 arjan: ooo Feb 16 23:11:29 heh - OK. Maybe let me know when/if you get to London/Helsinki :) Feb 16 23:11:29 Jaffa: I'm english :) Feb 16 23:11:35 should i expect to be able to run meego on my eee901 any time soon? Feb 16 23:11:36 trip0: I've not seen arjan's picture so I won't comment. Feb 16 23:11:41 w00t: sorry - forgot to reply Feb 16 23:11:42 trip0: Mrs Jaffa might be watching too Feb 16 23:11:49 zxcv, it will probably be more versions than that Feb 16 23:11:49 lbt: no problem, i was about to reping you Feb 16 23:11:50 hah Feb 16 23:12:17 ShadowJK: i am just trying to know how long the work will be standalone before convergence Feb 16 23:12:22 ShadowJK like a netbook version, a handset version ... or more like a moblin verison, a maemo version, a mix of both, ... ? Feb 16 23:12:53 votan, a netbook reference UI, a handheld reference UI, a "moblin" version, a nokia version, an LG version, a version Feb 16 23:13:03 is my feeling Feb 16 23:13:20 ShadowJK: Seems likely. Seems like Android ;-) Feb 16 23:13:25 yeah :( Feb 16 23:13:39 The customization/crapware disease is looming :) Feb 16 23:13:43 yeah, was about to say that aobut andorid too, looking at the new HP tablet running android etc Feb 16 23:13:59 do not forget about the iFail-App-Overdose disease :) Feb 16 23:14:00 ShadowJK, it's not like nokia UI is currently open... Feb 16 23:14:10 jku_, indeed it's not Feb 16 23:15:12 boo at not being open Feb 16 23:15:37 ShadowJK so the main difference between the versions will be the polish/layout/UI but they work more or less on the same underworks which consits of maemo and moblin code ? Feb 16 23:15:57 votan, yes I think that's the idea. And that the published API would work everywhere Feb 16 23:16:03 Jaffa: I do wonder what meego target devices are Feb 16 23:16:17 lbt: aren't you a target device? Feb 16 23:16:52 lbt I'd guess they target the same market that maemo/moblin did so far, portable devices of all sorts Feb 16 23:17:34 hey ScriptRipper Feb 16 23:17:44 hey Feb 16 23:17:48 trip0: I am indeed Feb 16 23:18:04 welcome to meego my friend :) Feb 16 23:18:17 whom do you tell Feb 16 23:18:22 you :D Feb 16 23:18:29 :D Feb 16 23:18:40 i was visiting berlin the last 4 days Feb 16 23:18:51 and let the dust settle down a bit Feb 16 23:19:03 so you missed the start of the format wars Feb 16 23:19:19 Can I miss the middle & the end, please? Feb 16 23:19:24 where is it happening? Feb 16 23:19:32 ScriptRipper: duck Feb 16 23:19:48 * Jaffa really doesn't care, as he expects tools to abstract him as a dev from it beyond the "make this packagable and shippable please" Feb 16 23:20:03 Although dpkg triggers make Catorise feasible - I assume RPM's got similar. Feb 16 23:20:07 votan, it will be interesting to see how it ends up, if there'll be one giant repository for apps, and if you, for example, wanted to make an app for sharing an internet connection over WLAN, would you have to provide scripts to figure out what kind of device you're on, whether the kernel needs to be replaced to provide connection-tracking support, and how to replace the kernel on that specific device, whether the wlan supports AP mode or if you have to u Feb 16 23:20:13 se ad-hoc, etc etc :) Feb 16 23:20:25 Jaffa: as a C/C++ dev yes Feb 16 23:20:55 but if you need a library (DeCSS, ldap, etc) then you'll feel the lack Feb 16 23:20:59 lbt: As a library packager I care a bit more, of course. But even then... format's a format. It's what you do with it that counts. Feb 16 23:21:35 I was meaning as someone who wants to write/port a simple app (like hermes) Feb 16 23:21:42 lbt: Maybe MUD's been spoiling me for the upstream libraries/tools I've ported to date - or I've picked upstreams which are happy with dh_make/Debian Feb 16 23:21:45 I don't care what format the packager uses. My problem with this switch is that it renders all software made for Maemo... well.. dead. Feb 16 23:21:45 but finds the dependency backlog is huge Feb 16 23:21:53 Until they repackage.. if they do. Feb 16 23:22:17 zerojay: the point is they may not have used autoconf Feb 16 23:22:29 Jaffa: are your C apps autoconf'ed ? Feb 16 23:22:33 lbt: I already had to do python-evolution, python-twitter and so on for Hermes... Feb 16 23:23:04 Jaffa: and in Mer they'd have been there (as part of Ubuntu upstream) Feb 16 23:23:06 lbt: Haven't released many C apps for Maemo, and try to avoid autoconf. Not my idea of a transparent tool, but recognise it as the best standard available. Feb 16 23:23:19 lbt: indeed Feb 16 23:23:31 and that's my point really Feb 16 23:23:36 * Jaffa nods Feb 16 23:23:41 you shouldn't have to do that... Feb 16 23:23:47 time for bed me thinks Feb 16 23:23:55 catch you lot tomorrow Feb 16 23:23:58 g'night Feb 16 23:24:01 night slaine__ Feb 16 23:24:02 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44597 12% think rpm is an improvement Feb 16 23:24:20 now, I'd be interested to look at autopackaging from other distros Feb 16 23:24:26 lbt: more satisfying than lots of fiddly code to make a good UI Feb 16 23:24:44 lbt: Does alien deal with source packages or just binary ones? Feb 16 23:24:49 what do qt apps use for packaging? Feb 16 23:24:55 binary Feb 16 23:24:58 or rather, do you create package within the ide Feb 16 23:25:04 lol what? Feb 16 23:25:18 qt apps must be packaged with duct tape, it's the only way Feb 16 23:25:20 qt packages are usually made in .tar.gz/bz2 lol Feb 16 23:25:21 zxcv: qmake. MADDE is in tech preview and will be integrated with Qt Creator/Maemo 6 SDK Feb 16 23:25:30 zxcv, wtf? Feb 16 23:25:38 qmake makes makefiles doesnt it? Feb 16 23:25:43 agh Feb 16 23:25:44 does it alsoadd debian folders/ Feb 16 23:25:55 or rpm config thingies Feb 16 23:25:55 qmake is .... interesting Feb 16 23:26:00 ShadowJK: something like your example has to be developped, not worked around. We have connman/ofono that would be happy to have that support Feb 16 23:26:06 zxcv: The Maemo SDK team have been working on MADDE which is a self-contained builder/deb packager with most of the examples targetting Qt. Feb 16 23:26:10 interesting is certainly a nice choice of words Feb 16 23:26:28 anyway, if others promote MADDE openly, then I can promote autotroll, too =p Feb 16 23:26:29 wiretapped: and not just any duct tape.. good, quality grey cloth tape! Feb 16 23:26:32 Jaffa: so that tool takes a qt project and debifies it? Feb 16 23:26:39 personally I think a package management system should leave the original source alone as much as possible Feb 16 23:26:39 it makes packaging for Qt apps rather easy Feb 16 23:26:50 afaik the trolls hate qmake too but can't do anything better due to the installed base Feb 16 23:26:51 and im assuming will need a serious overhail for meego Feb 16 23:27:04 overhaul? Feb 16 23:27:10 madde makes debs Feb 16 23:27:15 zxcv: Yes. On Windows/OS X or Linux; targetting i386 and armel binaries. Without a VM. Without Scratchbox. Feb 16 23:27:16 as jaffa said Feb 16 23:27:17 auke: does the original source include "make install" ? Feb 16 23:27:43 lbt: some equivalent, usually yes Feb 16 23:27:45 madde makes borken debs, that's what he didnt tell Feb 16 23:27:51 and you trust them :) Feb 16 23:27:54 zxcv: It creates an appropriate debian/ directory and runs dpkg-buildpackage internally. Not that hard to shift to the RPM equivalent (whatever that may be) Feb 16 23:27:58 it's still pre-release mikhas :) Feb 16 23:28:09 a distributed tarball that does not provide make install is broken :p Feb 16 23:28:15 mikhas: URL for autotroll? The cross-platforminess of MADDE is the more interesting aspectr IMHO Feb 16 23:28:19 lbt: if they don't, I'll have to fix em... Feb 16 23:28:20 auke: the "make install" bit is usually what packaging fixes Feb 16 23:28:35 ok jaffa, thanks. its a consideration that will have to be addressed, i guess madde will have to target both development targets Feb 16 23:28:37 Jaffa, http://www.tsunanet.net/autotroll/ Feb 16 23:28:38 damien_l, and kernel .config's that include conntrack? :-) Feb 16 23:28:46 mikhas: thanks Feb 16 23:28:48 together with identifying the library deps from the specific distro Feb 16 23:28:58 Jaffa, what cross-platforminess? Feb 16 23:28:59 the idea is this: an m4 macro that runs qmake and extracts the compiler flags Feb 16 23:29:12 after that, you are in autotools land Feb 16 23:29:17 jku_, you can compile arm on amd64 :) Feb 16 23:29:23 (only does that during configure stage, too) Feb 16 23:29:46 cross-compile yes Feb 16 23:29:46 auke: I'm concerned about the autotools love I'm seeing ... Feb 16 23:30:17 jku_: MADDE already has a relatively easy to use Windows, OS X and Linux installer; which can then spit out cross-compiled armel debs. Feb 16 23:30:33 there are worse things than autotools Feb 16 23:30:35 mikhas: The use of M4's always fun ;-) Feb 16 23:30:39 there is a cleaned-up version of autotroll hidden here: http://github.com/danielkitta/qhello Feb 16 23:30:39 ShadowJK: I was more thinking of extending the DBus API, API that provides some check so see if you have conntrack support on the device (whatever it can do behind the scene to do that) Feb 16 23:30:50 INSANNE will be the rpm counterpart. Feb 16 23:30:51 auke: mmm - solid argument there ;) Feb 16 23:31:16 damien_l, but then when you need to upgrade the kernel it gets complicated, right :) Feb 16 23:31:31 from a distro point of view, autotools rock. (that in itself is a rather sad conclusion) Feb 16 23:31:42 or say even add a new kernel module Feb 16 23:32:16 those things would almost need per-device repositories.. Feb 16 23:32:18 Jaffa, I have to admit I stopped looking more carefully when I realised it wasn't open source... Feb 16 23:32:28 auke: do you have stats on pkg coverage by .... configure method?.... like autotools Feb 16 23:32:56 Jaffa, but the part that autoconf usually does seemed to be a bit handwaved away... Feb 16 23:33:06 jku_: I can't remember what they said abnout that. May've been an "eventually" - and you can imagine such a thing being a boon to MeeGo. Feb 16 23:33:26 ShadowJK: either don't support that on kernel not built with it, or, indeed, installing a package Feb 16 23:33:51 and yes, it's a per device thingy when it comes to that Feb 16 23:34:05 jku_: It's intended for greenfield development. i.e. the devs who've got XCode, Android SDK or webOS SDK available without having to install Linux & Scratchbox or maintain a whole new machine in a VM. *Not* as a general cross-compiling, cross-platform dev environment. Feb 16 23:34:27 OBS gives you that Feb 16 23:34:40 lbt, so mean =) Feb 16 23:34:41 I wish we could get rid of the [MeeGo-dev] tag on the mailing list. Feb 16 23:34:45 different level to home user testing Feb 16 23:34:48 Takes up so much damn space in Modest Feb 16 23:34:48 Which feeds back into lbt's point about having a wide range of libraries available to you upstream so that your average app developer isn't porting libraries which the tools don't make easy. Feb 16 23:34:52 sorry : OBS gives you that Feb 16 23:34:56 zxcv++ Feb 16 23:35:09 GeneralAntilles, I wish we could get rid of the people who start a new thread when they meant to reply, or people who reply to an existing thread when they meant to create a new thread. Feb 16 23:35:20 ShadowJK, that too. Feb 16 23:35:22 lbt obs integrates the os, madde lets wazd build themes Feb 16 23:35:23 what about a repository for device-specific stuff and another for generally-compiled stuff? Feb 16 23:35:36 ShadowJK, but the [MeeGo-dev]'s are making my eyes bleed trying to distinguish those. Feb 16 23:35:37 lbt: Lots of devs will want to build locally (and ideally run a quick debug through) without having to post tarballs etc. up to a server and wait for their job to complete. This isn't the 70s ;-) Feb 16 23:35:41 I actually wanted to get hands-on experience with OBS @ FOSDEM, missed that ... *somehow* Feb 16 23:35:46 Moblin-Meegoblin-Meamelin-Mobuntu-Symbieno-Moppel RELEASED! Its fantastic! Check it out!!!! ISO-AVAILABLE! All Distributions mixed into each other to Mobbel-Bobbel-Extreme Bumbo Feb 16 23:35:54 Jaffa: you haven't used it yet have you Feb 16 23:36:07 lbt: Once (or was it twice) Feb 16 23:36:12 But ages ago. Feb 16 23:36:17 And not in anger. Feb 16 23:36:28 lbt: no stats here - if I had them they'd be based on moblin too atm Feb 16 23:36:30 yeah, it's a better sbox than sbox Feb 16 23:36:38 shudder Feb 16 23:36:42 auke: may be an idea Feb 16 23:37:07 help explain to people what's involved - and help to identify which automation tools to focus on Feb 16 23:37:10 lbt: there's a LOT of pkgconfig (autotools) in moblin. Feb 16 23:37:11 Mobber-Box Pre-Release! Feb 16 23:37:25 pretty much the entire moblin UI stack is pkgconfig Feb 16 23:37:43 auke: you should probably auto-analyse the debian and fedora repos too Feb 16 23:37:50 maybe based on popcon Feb 16 23:37:54 does current moblin gtk support include hildon> Feb 16 23:37:57 or equiv Feb 16 23:38:11 zxcv, i doubt it Feb 16 23:38:12 zxcv: nop Feb 16 23:38:22 (granted the ui apps are not our interest area at all) Feb 16 23:38:39 lbt: statistics are like polls :) Feb 16 23:38:42 although many of the pkgs they depend on will be Feb 16 23:38:51 auke: true Feb 16 23:39:08 but you want to justify resource to spend on automating packaging don't you? Feb 16 23:39:28 lbt: could ignore anything with a gtk/qt dependency which has no dependencies into it. Feb 16 23:39:49 lbt: that should exclude a lot/some apps. Feb 16 23:40:02 well Jaffa, the other approach is that we could look at those apps and look at what *they* depend on Feb 16 23:40:23 since the app needs rewriting but the functionality it uses wont Feb 16 23:40:34 eg mail clients using imap libs Feb 16 23:40:38 lbt: good point. Having libfoo-bar is more important than mutt or exim (probably ;-)) Feb 16 23:41:14 and again - the idea is to understand (and explain to others) the scope of the problem Feb 16 23:41:28 and then to say "this is how we anticipat it being solved" Feb 16 23:41:32 * Jaffa nods. Feb 16 23:41:37 And, on that note, it's bedtime. Feb 16 23:41:38 G'night. Feb 16 23:41:50 Jaffa: cya Feb 16 23:41:50 and this covers 83% of the packages in debian Feb 16 23:41:53 night Jaffa Feb 16 23:42:13 nur für den kick für den augenblick... und warum? Feb 16 23:42:52 Hi all Feb 16 23:43:28 xavier naidoo: und wenn dein glied meine lippen verlässt, dann nur um mir samen zu geben..... llalala Feb 16 23:44:09 thanks, please keep the channel in english though Feb 16 23:46:40 i just sung a song of xaver from mannheim Feb 16 23:47:10 i want meeeeeeeegoooooooooo. that makes me feel so happy that i must sing Feb 16 23:47:29 let meeeee gooooooooooo...... into netbook and mobile-heaven Feb 16 23:47:31 I'd prefer it if you didn't. please keep this chat clean from inappropriate stuff Feb 16 23:47:36 ok Feb 16 23:48:10 atthe moment you can listen on german radio or webstream, deutschlandradio about mobile barcelona.... its interresting. Feb 16 23:48:21 i am just a poweruser Feb 16 23:48:23 also on topic please Feb 16 23:48:41 if you want to chat about non-meego stuff, find yourself a different chatroom please. Feb 16 23:48:49 mobile-conference-barcelona.. they speak about meego right now.... hallelujia Feb 16 23:48:56 its meego-stuff Feb 16 23:49:04 just in german Feb 16 23:49:15 so if german here they can turn on radio and themself to listen it Feb 16 23:49:18 its cool Feb 16 23:50:15 hmm, they do have a flash website Feb 16 23:50:48 i must look dont know... i just listen it on normal oldschool fm-radio Feb 16 23:51:58 ooh... just 5 minutes left.. then the radioshow is over... Feb 16 23:59:23 slaine_: CosmoHill eg https://features.opensuse.org/306896 Feb 17 00:02:05 off to meeting Feb 17 00:03:52 ooo Feb 17 00:03:57 no idea wha the link is about Feb 17 00:04:08 ah, apt-cacher for rpm? Feb 17 00:05:21 yeah Feb 17 00:05:33 cool Feb 17 00:05:37 * CosmoHill goes to bed Feb 17 00:05:40 me too Feb 17 00:05:41 night ngiht Feb 17 00:05:42 'night Feb 17 00:05:46 you englist? Feb 17 00:06:42 me? Feb 17 00:06:58 anyone with the answer "yes" Feb 17 00:07:27 I am a super-user!!! respect this! Feb 17 00:10:24 Ryback_afk: does your name has anything to do with fish? ryby? Feb 17 00:20:40 chickengeorge_n: well, it's only my nick, not my name. and I remeber choosing a long time ago after a movie character Feb 17 00:22:27 i see.......... cause i remember that in CZ, polska,russian language rybak or ryby means something like fish or fisherman.... :) Feb 17 00:27:22 meego is very close to portuguese 'meigo', which means something like 'gay'. People laughed hard on brazilian forums. Feb 17 00:28:08 hehehe thats funny too Feb 17 00:28:36 chickengeorge_n: :-) Feb 17 00:28:55 meh. most people couldn't care less about the name of an os that runs on their phone Feb 17 00:29:05 ptl, it means unfortunate things in a lot of languages unfortunately. Feb 17 00:29:30 GeneralAntilles: this is not unfortunate, it adds happiness :P Feb 17 00:29:38 as long as it doesn't mean anything scatological Feb 17 00:29:44 heh Feb 17 00:29:46 * GeneralAntilles isn't sure that's the case. Feb 17 00:30:07 meego is a great name - for a toy. Feb 17 00:30:08 At least for English, it's very similar to what young children might use in that case. . . . Feb 17 00:30:17 SpeedEvil, Fisher Price, baby! Feb 17 00:30:41 But I'm not wholly sure that it's appropriate for something I'm gonna be asked to drop the better part of a thousand dollars on. Feb 17 00:31:24 SpeedEvil, at least I don't feel embarrassed about saying I work with Maemo. Feb 17 00:31:30 MeeGo, however. :\ Feb 17 00:31:56 Go with Princes solution. Feb 17 00:32:07 could be worse. it could be named "ipad" Feb 17 00:32:10 'The operating system formerly known as maemo' Feb 17 00:32:35 trip0, no, I'm pretty sure iPad is better. Feb 17 00:33:08 or years ago Ford Planned a car for german market named "Ford Mist" .... but Mist in german means shit from animals mixed with dry grass , then they deceided to name it different.. Feb 17 00:33:28 Chevy Nova Feb 17 00:33:34 Hah, was going to mention that one Feb 17 00:33:43 idk if it's really a chevy Feb 17 00:33:47 but yeah :P Feb 17 00:34:05 trip0, it is. Feb 17 00:34:28 http://www.khulsey.com/stockphotography/chevy-nova-sport-coupe-1971.jpeg Feb 17 00:34:29 Always Skoda, which conveniently also means pity or shame, in their native Czech Feb 17 00:34:41 i like the power supply manufacturer, 'Wayne Kerr' Feb 17 00:34:55 The Rapist Finder! Feb 17 00:35:16 mind you, MS's 'One Care' came pretty close to that too Feb 17 00:36:41 MicroSoft-Toilet-Paper Feb 17 00:54:25 meego support for n900? Feb 17 00:54:37 what about it? Feb 17 00:55:30 guardian: there's a faq in the channel topic Feb 17 00:55:33 you could read it Feb 17 00:55:59 (the faq could use some editing, but hey) Feb 17 00:56:17 ta thanks Feb 17 00:57:45 support for the n900 and meego is unknown Feb 17 01:00:53 faq states it will support ARM, looks likely that it'll be the device included for at least initial meego development Feb 17 01:19:31 so whats the deal with meego Feb 17 01:20:57 * auke goes home for the day: AFK Feb 17 01:22:19 bob_, specify. Feb 17 01:23:28 bob_: it rocks Feb 17 01:27:08 well is there any info about it other than meego.com? the site seems pretty sparce for information Feb 17 01:29:38 meego < 48hrs old Feb 17 01:29:53 ahhh Feb 17 01:30:47 bob_, Moblin + Maemo = MeeGo Feb 17 01:31:30 @generalantilles, hehe but thats all the info i can find on it Feb 17 01:31:44 bob_, all lot is still to be decided Feb 17 01:31:55 bob_, are your questions more technical or community focused? Feb 17 01:33:50 i guess more technical, i'm pretty familiar with various linux distros and when i looked at moblin a few months back i wasnt very impress, i dont remember what exactly i didnt like about it but i do remember that is seem less powerful than full linux distros e.g. debian, fedora ect. Feb 17 01:34:09 so when i hear it was being combined with maemo i was very interested Feb 17 01:34:10 Well, it's mobile-oriented Feb 17 01:34:21 So, yes, it's limited in some ways. Feb 17 01:34:35 I'm a Maemo Community guy, though, so my familiarity with Moblin is limited. Feb 17 01:34:54 ahh Feb 17 01:36:02 so i'm guess since its only 2 days old they havent really released much else about it Feb 17 01:37:00 bob_, first code should be coming in a couple of weeks, apparently. Feb 17 01:37:07 ahh Feb 17 01:37:44 well thanks for the info Feb 17 01:37:54 sure is a quiet chat room ha Feb 17 01:38:51 bob_, lot of Europeans. Feb 17 01:39:08 ahh Feb 17 01:39:29 bob_, it's actually been non-stop noise since the announcement Feb 17 01:39:35 bob_, it's very quiet right now. Feb 17 01:41:17 whatch this, which is better deb or rpm, maybe that will liven it up Feb 17 01:41:32 i think everyone is tired of that Feb 17 01:41:34 if not they should be! Feb 17 01:42:18 yeah, I was J/K Feb 17 01:42:35 lol Feb 17 01:42:56 GeneralAntilles: hey Feb 17 01:43:00 at least you have noise here Feb 17 01:43:08 #symbian is nonstop silence :) Feb 17 01:43:20 timeless_mbp, good. Feb 17 01:43:22 Symbian sucks Feb 17 01:43:37 it's still amusing counterpoint :) Feb 17 01:44:34 lol Feb 17 01:45:31 my n97 is on ebay Feb 17 01:45:33 :) Feb 17 01:45:53 * timeless_mbp isn't going to buy it Feb 17 01:46:07 woudln't blame you :P Feb 17 01:47:03 the n97 is a toy compared to the n900 Feb 17 02:11:10 ? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 17 02:59:58 2010