**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 17 02:59:58 2010 Feb 17 03:26:48 it's amazing how quickly this channel has died in intensity Feb 17 03:27:05 "OMG THERE KILLINGZ MAI N900" Feb 17 03:27:12 And then, nothing. Feb 17 03:28:24 everyone's calmed down now Feb 17 03:28:43 although I'm sure it'll fire right back up when something actually gets released Feb 17 03:29:10 i have a question, Feb 17 03:29:15 what is meego exactly? dont get it Feb 17 03:29:33 g0tcha: it's an OS for mobile devices? Feb 17 03:30:03 g0tcha, Moblin + Maemo = MeeGo Feb 17 03:30:11 just like maemo, android, symbian and so on? Feb 17 03:30:23 cool.. Feb 17 03:30:30 As tripzero said, it's a platform for high-end phones, tablets, netbooks, interactive TVs, cars, etc. Feb 17 03:30:33 pretty much Feb 17 03:30:33 is that going to change anything in the corrent nokia phones that are running maemo? Feb 17 03:30:47 won't change anything probably Feb 17 03:30:47 g0tcha, not in the short-term, no. Feb 17 03:30:58 neat Feb 17 03:31:22 im curious to see what they can do with MeeGo after seeing maemo does what it does with the N900 Feb 17 03:32:03 it should be a progression from what maemo5 is today Feb 17 03:35:35 sure, im all up for changes as long as it doesnt make my N900 obselete any time soon heheh Feb 17 03:36:52 you don't have much to fear for a while Feb 17 04:09:53 meego is so quiet tonight Feb 17 04:12:21 it would be hard to maintain the level of yesterday Feb 17 04:13:11 lmao Feb 17 04:27:34 .rpm?????? WTF!!!! Feb 17 04:30:01 * anaZ votes for .wtf Feb 17 04:32:50 wtfpl ftw Feb 17 04:41:31 Hi / Hola Feb 17 04:41:52 How to Download meego for netbook? Feb 17 05:55:25 ah, the usual suspects Feb 17 05:56:52 someone should stick this in the topic Feb 17 05:56:53 http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf Feb 17 06:05:07 itdocks: why? Feb 17 06:38:09 morn Feb 17 06:43:51 rpm rules!!!!!! Feb 17 06:44:36 ksanjeet: Madman! It's marmite all the way! ;) Feb 17 06:44:42 Forget vegemite! ;) Feb 17 06:45:06 rpm? well, at least the .spec files are easier to write than making a debian binary Feb 17 06:45:35 That's the spirit :) Feb 17 06:45:49 s/binary/package/ Feb 17 06:46:04 not like i'm a fan of either of these formats Feb 17 06:48:26 imo, the whole dpkg vs rpm and .deb vs .rpm debate is quite moot Feb 17 06:48:37 but the tools to create them are certainly quite different Feb 17 06:51:01 muep: Indeed :) Feb 17 06:52:04 personally I prefer the RPM tools, but it probably has something to do with that I have packaged tens of RPMs (mostly just for myself), and only a few debs Feb 17 06:54:10 both toolsets have their annoyances, but since both have been used to create distros with tens of thousands of packages, it seems probable that both suit the job just fine Feb 17 06:54:56 Well, the application argument is rarely useful, to be honest... by that argument Windows is also useful for something ;) Feb 17 06:56:21 where did windows come from..i hate windows Feb 17 06:57:23 ksanjeet, don't use it then, what's the problem? Feb 17 06:59:08 Oh, i don't like windows, and don't use it, but don't particularly mind others using it, as long as they know not to ask me for help when it blows up :) Feb 17 07:00:05 * muep uses windows mostly when he is paid for it Feb 17 07:01:11 True, i do actually have a small windows box here that i've been using for some asp.net/c# work :) hoping i'll be able to avoid that later on, horrible stuff :P Feb 17 07:03:03 leinir, try mono for c#/asp work :P Feb 17 07:04:18 ksanjeet: the product i'm building has the requirement "Should work with IE7 and IE8" so i'd need one around anyway :P Feb 17 07:04:34 and Visual Studio is just better for C# than any of the Free tools Feb 17 07:04:46 (yes, i know monodevelop, and i'm not particularly impressed with it) Feb 17 07:07:42 leinir, yes...activex isn't there in mono...though..you can find most of the features.. Feb 17 07:36:29 Morning, all Feb 17 07:37:10 morning Jaffa! Feb 17 07:49:14 morn jaffa Feb 17 08:14:38 hi Feb 17 08:15:00 hi hurdman Feb 17 08:15:46 morning meegoers Feb 17 08:41:56 Morning, lbt Feb 17 08:46:07 Morning Feb 17 08:56:24 good morning Feb 17 08:56:38 If a company want official/commecial support, who will provide that ?? Feb 17 08:57:20 nokia/intel? Feb 17 08:58:36 To whom we can tieup for commercial support ? Feb 17 08:59:36 http://meego.com/contact Feb 17 09:00:08 Thnks you. Feb 17 09:00:20 usually 'web pages' have 'contact' information somewhere. it's not that hard... Feb 17 09:00:58 I was looking for particuler mail id where I can start communication. Feb 17 09:01:18 right now things are a bit in infancy, so maybe meego-dev? Feb 17 09:05:03 Debian->suse cli cheatsheet: http://lilypond.org/blog/janneke/openSUSE-HOWTO would be nice to meego-ise this and put it on the wiki :) Feb 17 09:08:05 bye Feb 17 09:10:42 * thiago wonders if that was Dominique Strauss-Kahn :-P Feb 17 09:13:34 i certainly hope not. how can you trust a person that can't find contact information on a webpage to manage the IMF Feb 17 09:28:30 morning all Feb 17 09:28:43 time for coffee I think Feb 17 09:30:39 hi everybody, I m trying to install maemo SDK 5 on my Fedora 12, but when I run af-sb-init.sh script it displays "Starting DBUS system bus mmap: Permission denied..." and /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr is set to 4096.. I also have vdso32=0 in my kernel boot line (thanks for your help !!!) Feb 17 09:33:45 sorry if my answer sounds stupid but you have root rights? Feb 17 09:34:11 megabast: Are you running the ARMEL or X86 target? Feb 17 09:34:19 yes I do bva Feb 17 09:34:47 Jaffa: on ARMEL target Feb 17 09:35:48 megabast: Is the X86 one working? ARMEL stuff is flaky because of the execution of large parts of the OS under qemu Feb 17 09:36:19 Jaffa: I didn't tried X86 target Feb 17 09:36:24 megabast: My usual cycle with Scratchbox is to develop, debug and test on X86 and then build on ARMEL to test on device, then submit to the autobuilder. Feb 17 09:36:41 megabast: Right, start with X86, it's a better place for doing dev work (more stable, faster) Feb 17 09:37:18 Jaffa: Do you have an url displaying process to start with X86? Feb 17 09:38:50 bva: hummm maybe I do not have root rights how I was thinking, I've just tried an sudo su, and the answer was mmap: Permission denied Feb 17 09:39:44 megabast: sb-menu and select the X86 target ;-) Feb 17 09:40:03 ok thanks Jaffa Feb 17 09:40:20 megabast: try running setenforce 0, too, if you keep running into permission denials Feb 17 09:40:40 Permission denied mostly points to rights issues, cant help you any further though :s I'm verry new to C++ and meamo / meego and ... Feb 17 09:40:48 so im here to read and learn :p Feb 17 09:41:05 muep: I did Feb 17 09:41:20 ok, nevermind then :-) Feb 17 09:41:20 I have to move, i ll be back in 5 minutes Feb 17 09:48:06 any news about when the toolchain of meego will be available? Feb 17 09:51:54 it's gcc + Qt Creator Feb 17 09:52:36 thiago: Well, that is a bit simplistic :) Feb 17 09:52:46 well, for x86 it's quite simple :-) Feb 17 09:52:54 for ARM it will take longer Feb 17 09:53:19 and since there's no MeeGo yet you can download, the Qt SDK is the next best thing. Feb 17 10:01:53 s/next // Feb 17 10:02:04 :-) Feb 17 10:04:17 Is there someone here who could approve my message sent from jak@debian.org? I normally sent from jak-linux.org, but this time I wanted to express my opinion as a Debian Developer. Feb 17 10:05:05 subscribe to the list, it's most fair you take the fallout as well :) Feb 17 10:05:22 juliank, i wonder what thread... :) Feb 17 10:05:28 Stskeeps: I am subscribed, but with jak@jak-linux.org; and this time I posted from jak@debian.org Feb 17 10:06:18 I'm so sick of that thread Feb 17 10:06:32 think we all are Feb 17 10:06:34 I may unsubscibe for a week or two Feb 17 10:06:53 juliank: did you see the FAQ topic? that it's about organisation and process and pre-existing tools and infrastructure Feb 17 10:07:06 juliank: You can also subscribe additional emailaddresses without mail delivery. Feb 17 10:09:11 Stskeeps: I don't get what you want to tell me Feb 17 10:09:23 juliank: sorry, thought it was about the rpm vs deb decision :P Feb 17 10:11:10 Stskeeps: I was just sending an email to "porting MeeGo to Debian/Ubuntu" stating that there will most likely be a Debian variant of MeeGo, just like moblin is already packaged in Debian. Feb 17 10:11:49 juliank: for that - join #mer Feb 17 10:11:52 please :) Feb 17 10:12:39 lbt: I don't see how the official Debian packaging of MeeGo is related to Mer. Feb 17 10:13:05 hmm, you *are* a debian dev ;) Feb 17 10:14:13 juliank: mer is about being open with Maemo (and now MeeGo) Feb 17 10:14:28 we'd be very interested in that work and could act as a focus Feb 17 10:14:55 Stskeeps (mainly) and I have been working on debian/ubuntu based ports of maemo for a while now Feb 17 10:14:59 lbt: I'm not involved in the packaging (yet) Feb 17 10:15:24 sure - just suggesting a useful place to discuss Feb 17 10:15:57 lbt: But I plan to do it in summer (where I have 6 weeks to package everything needed). And I joined #mer now. Feb 17 10:15:58 juliank: there's a huge difference there Feb 17 10:16:27 slaine_: Where is a huge difference? Feb 17 10:16:30 you're talking about packaging the Moblin UI on debian. Feb 17 10:16:40 now called meego ui I guess Feb 17 10:17:12 Moblin/MeeGo is a whole stack, including the distro Feb 17 10:17:53 it's not just mutter-moblin and the panels Feb 17 10:18:08 I'd like to see MeeGo re-packaged / aligned with other distros - I wonder if Mer could look at doing that for Debian+Fedora Feb 17 10:18:32 There's already a Fedora Moblin spin that will take up the MeeGo apps Feb 17 10:18:32 * w00t tips hat at lbt Feb 17 10:18:39 slaine_: AFAIK Harmattan will be a MeeGo implementation without the distro Feb 17 10:18:43 (at least, I'd like that now - I may change my mind after seeing more meego) Feb 17 10:19:20 lbt: I think that importing packages (fairly automatically) from fedora and/or debian would solve most of this anyway Feb 17 10:19:21 t-tan: That's purely marketing imo. Both distro's already share a common set of infrastructure in the GNOME Mobile stack Feb 17 10:19:43 MeeGo for ARM won't take shape until >Maemo6 Feb 17 10:20:17 slaine_: That's Quim said: Harmattan will be MeeGo Feb 17 10:20:22 * slaine_ waves at nedrichards Feb 17 10:20:28 actually i wonder how they'll pull that off. Feb 17 10:20:32 dual-packaging for developers? Feb 17 10:20:45 Stskeeps: as far as I understood, it is purely a branding decision Feb 17 10:20:54 t-tan: Again, it won't be. There's going to be separation in the repos as the FS layouts will be different Feb 17 10:20:55 i mean, yes, it's qt, but how will my meego app for H build for both H and MeeGo? Feb 17 10:21:03 which I personally think is a bit of a mistake in some ways, but is the best compromise possible I suppose Feb 17 10:21:15 With alot of pain and cursing Feb 17 10:21:31 I see MeeGo as an UI and a reference implementation of programming APIs. Feb 17 10:21:33 it's going to take some time to knit both groups together Feb 17 10:21:43 so there is MeeGo instance, MeeGo distribution, MeeGo device, MeeGo stack?? :confused: Feb 17 10:21:46 juliank: except packaging is going to be an issue, for sure Feb 17 10:21:48 juliank: That's a common mistake Feb 17 10:22:01 * lbt wonders if a MeeGo app is defined as "QT apis only" Feb 17 10:22:13 sticky shift - shut up w00t Feb 17 10:22:17 MeeGo == Moblin + Qt frameworks + Qt Apps Feb 17 10:22:18 Or there will be a meego metapackage for apps to depend on, and all extra apps will depend on that, and maemo6 will be lsb compliant and able to install meego extra apps in rpm format Feb 17 10:22:19 lbt: Qt, but doubtful Feb 17 10:22:28 slaine_: As long as the APIs are there, your stuff is 'MeeGo compatible'. Feb 17 10:22:30 And Moblin is more than a pretty WM Feb 17 10:22:38 lbt: the arch overvie notes very cautiously that Gtk and clutter are part of the system Feb 17 10:22:42 juliank: That's already the case Feb 17 10:22:45 ShadowJK: that would be nice Feb 17 10:22:50 s/overvie/overview/ Feb 17 10:22:51 Moblin 2.1 ships with qt4 Feb 17 10:23:13 Of course there's other libs that'll beed packaging for the Moblin side of the pond Feb 17 10:23:20 Jaffa: it worked with X86 target, thanks ^^ Feb 17 10:23:43 Which will happen for MeeGo 1.0 to a large degree and I'm sure will be updated with a 1.1 release a few months later Feb 17 10:24:20 megabast: np Feb 17 10:26:47 lbt: actually if you want to have a natively looking app for meego 1.0 you should consider clutter/mx Feb 17 10:27:26 but qt might be tweaked to look alike Feb 17 10:28:51 I really can't imagine that not being the case, and I'm a bit perplexed about clutter taking primary focus too Feb 17 10:29:10 that's not how the architecture diagram, and what nokia has been repeating constantly, would indicate Feb 17 10:29:51 w00t, we all have our own opinions on that Feb 17 10:30:40 slaine_: again, the architecture diagram specifically *says* Qt Feb 17 10:30:56 the architecture diagram says Meego Kernel too Feb 17 10:31:35 damien_l: not sure how that is related Feb 17 10:31:39 wot he said, it says a lot of things that a "marketing" person put on there Feb 17 10:32:18 w00t: it's a way to say that this diagram is not something one can use to prove his point Feb 17 10:32:20 okay, so you think the entire exercise with harmattan UI toolkit and the rest of it was just for fun and games? Feb 17 10:32:35 because I really don't find that easy to believe Feb 17 10:32:40 of course not Feb 17 10:33:00 as I said, I'm not *just* using the diagram Feb 17 10:33:05 there is a lot of already written code supporting this Feb 17 10:33:36 the fact is that Meego 1.0 for *netbooks* will be heavily based on Clutter, with marketing to push people to use Qt for apps Feb 17 10:33:46 ah Feb 17 10:33:59 yeah Feb 17 10:34:15 ok, that's probably something you should have said from the start Feb 17 10:34:22 we're talking at cross purposes Feb 17 10:34:48 yup Feb 17 10:34:51 w00t, it's the elephant in the room as far as both corporate responses go Feb 17 10:35:21 while that may be the case, I don't think it'll be long lived Feb 17 10:36:04 w00t, the reality of Moblin is that most of the apps are standard gnome/gtk apps from upstream Feb 17 10:36:33 The window manager is mutter (Metacity + Clutter) and the panel that everyone loves is a set of mutter plugins Feb 17 10:36:46 slaine_: and there is absolutely nothing stopping those applications from continuing to coexist happily Feb 17 10:36:48 Those won't be re-written on Qt Feb 17 10:36:57 Exactly Feb 17 10:37:34 We'll get a consistant look and feel across both toolkits (hopefully) and ISV's will be encouraged to write apps using Qt and the frameworks there in Feb 17 10:37:45 slaine_: that's not entirely true, most of the native moblin apps are written in clutter+mx by now Feb 17 10:37:50 That'll give them wider scope as new MeeGo enabled platforms come online Feb 17 10:38:03 robsta: yeah, true, my bad Feb 17 10:38:04 slaine_: with only some gtk stuff remaining Feb 17 10:38:22 damien_l would be sad I didn't mention Hornsey or however you spell it :) Feb 17 10:40:31 indeed Feb 17 10:43:03 I guess what I meant was that applications not related to MyZone or rather the Moblin UX. In comparison to the number of applications on the system there's only a hand full of the Nbtk/MX applications Feb 17 10:44:42 And those applications won't be going anywhere for MeeGo for netbooks. MeeGo for handhelds or MID's or whatever it's going to be called could end up differently, same goes for smartphones. Feb 17 10:56:09 hi all Feb 17 10:56:24 morning amby Feb 17 11:05:26 does meego run maemo gtk-apps? Feb 17 11:06:19 mango-: It probably can once it is there. Feb 17 11:06:30 provided they replace their gtk stack :P Feb 17 11:06:45 mango-: Altough newer gtk will probably be used. Feb 17 11:07:35 Now installing moblin for fun :) Feb 17 11:07:42 Just to see what it's about Feb 17 11:13:04 robsta: What's moblin-app-installer called now ? Can't find it in trunk Feb 17 11:13:09 Is it just moblin-installer ? Feb 17 11:15:02 slaine_: i hear its fate is yet to be decided, no build at this point Feb 17 11:15:16 grand, I'll remove it from my ks file so Feb 17 11:15:18 thanks Feb 17 11:16:07 with intel's AppUp and everything Feb 17 11:29:01 * R4lph is away : I'm working... [=P= LogON] Feb 17 11:29:39 i'm thinking about a temp collection of answers on the meego wiki Feb 17 11:30:47 e.g. http://wiki.meego.com/meego_irc to serve as a capture place? Feb 17 11:31:20 what do you think? Feb 17 11:31:39 Does anyone know what will happen to existing Maemo devices? (thinking about Nokia N900 specifically) Feb 17 11:33:31 cbsch: what do you mean ? Feb 17 11:35:22 If Maemo and Moblin is to be merged, will existing Maemo devices be upgraded to MeeGo, or will they be abandoned as they are without updates and new applications? Feb 17 11:35:44 cbsch: It will remain just as open as it always has been (and if you mean "Will I be able to install Harmattan/MeeGo on it?", then the magic eight-ball seems to indicate yes) :) Feb 17 11:36:25 Allright, thats cool. I wonder if the vendors will support such a solution though Feb 17 11:36:38 cbsch: Proper MeeGo for Nokia devices is at least more than a year away. Feb 17 11:37:17 Okay, thanks. I'm very excited to see what comes out of this. :) Feb 17 11:37:18 cbsch: support is a funny word Feb 17 11:37:26 cbsch: how do you mean? Feb 17 11:39:16 Whether Nokia will spend time developing Maemo when MeeGo is 'production-ready'. Although I love the merits of open source and community development, Maemo wouldn't exist without the backing of a large corporation. Feb 17 11:39:56 And if Nokia focuses solely on MeeGo when it's ready, then Maemo will be quite dead. Feb 17 11:40:11 Well, I don't really know anything, but that's my impression. Feb 17 11:40:37 As long as we see PR2 for N900, I'm satisfied. Feb 17 11:42:11 it was mentioned somewhere that the main headache for Nokia is the multitouch support. Feb 17 11:43:03 MiXu-: that's PE2 Feb 17 11:43:26 What does PE stand for? Feb 17 11:47:08 maybe there are some flash gurus in here? :) Feb 17 12:01:52 have you guys seen this? http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/aava-mobile-debuts-worldrsquos-first-fully-lsquoopenrsquo-mobile-device,1164568.shtml Feb 17 12:02:34 "The reference design provides support for Linux-based Moblin 2.1 and Android OSs today, with plans to support MeeGo in the future." Feb 17 12:03:22 looks like a standard MID reference design Feb 17 12:04:50 that page is a mess Feb 17 12:06:16 hmm... sends konqueror into eternal reload mode... Feb 17 12:06:19 very annoying Feb 17 12:13:29 I'm a nokia n810, n900 user, and I'm wondering how does this merge make sense? Nokia N's are based on an ARM processor, so how does this make sense for Intel? Or is ARM gonna get pushed out of the way and MeeGo will end up having only Intel CPU support? Feb 17 12:13:49 Time will tell. Feb 17 12:13:54 igor1: it is publically stated there is both ARM and X86 support. Feb 17 12:14:14 igor1: MeeGo will have ARM support Feb 17 12:14:19 keep in mind, this is 1) a linux foundation project 2) two communities, maemo and moblin Feb 17 12:14:24 maemo will fight to their teeth for arm Feb 17 12:14:25 :P Feb 17 12:16:26 and battery manufacturers will fight for x86 Feb 17 12:16:36 lol Feb 17 12:16:46 the hope is also that some ARM manufacturers will join MeeGo Feb 17 12:17:19 "hey, Mr. ARM manufacturer, here's a fully working Linux stack for embedded devices, it just needs a bit of your love to support your device" Feb 17 12:17:21 Shame that the TransMeta folks never got very far with their "multi-architecture support over a proprietary ISA" stuff Feb 17 12:18:08 I'm sure TI is at least interested by that Feb 17 12:19:41 the alternatives are to do it themselves (lots of duplicated work), join LiMo or go talk to Google Feb 17 12:20:04 and Google has already said they have no plans of supporting anything other than phones Feb 17 12:20:35 As far as TI's concerned, it's Yet Another Platform, which means they'll only likely support it if OMAP sees traction in devices that'll run it Feb 17 12:20:39 If you join LiMo, say goodbye to your Open Source code, and open processes Feb 17 12:20:52 They did the same to the LiPS folks Feb 17 12:21:32 rys: things like beagle and zoom2 are very obvious targets for megoo Feb 17 12:22:21 As is nvidia Tegra Feb 17 12:22:56 But TI will wait until they see what happens with Meego first, rather than jump on it now, imho Feb 17 12:22:56 * thiago frankly likes the ARM assembly better than x86 Feb 17 12:23:30 it's more likely that some company using the TI gear will join in with MeeGo if they want it on their device Feb 17 12:23:51 TI do actively support things like the beagleboard though Feb 17 12:24:01 * thiago goes back to compiling Qt on Itanium and POWER5 Feb 17 12:24:13 In terms of the kernel and drivers anyway Feb 17 12:25:20 does llvm output for ARM ? Feb 17 12:25:21 Ok thanks, well I hope mainting both ARM and X86 support isn't gonna end up being too complicated, and hope X86 support is not gonna be ages more advanced than the ARM branch... Feb 17 12:25:42 I'm pretty sure it does, based on Apples heavy use of llvm and ARM Feb 17 12:26:00 * thiago points out that clang can't build Qt yet Feb 17 12:26:27 it's getting there though thiago Feb 17 12:26:42 it's self hosting now and llvm is written in C++ Feb 17 12:26:50 Qt code is a bit more complex Feb 17 12:26:53 nod Feb 17 12:26:57 it also miscompiles part of Qt in optimised mode Feb 17 12:27:01 It can't compile all C++ yet, iirc Feb 17 12:27:18 last I heard, it also choked on one of POSIX infinite wisdoms of naming a struct and a function the same thing Feb 17 12:27:24 (sigaction) Feb 17 12:27:53 perhaps I misunderstood the self hosting posts, I know llvm is C++, perhaps clang frontend is C only ???? Feb 17 12:28:36 or it can compile enough C++ to compile itself Feb 17 12:30:01 I guess it is implemented in simple subset of c++ Feb 17 12:30:37 wake me up when it compiles Loki ;-) Feb 17 12:33:00 to be fair, C++ is a fairly complex language gramatically Feb 17 12:33:14 understatement Feb 17 12:33:41 perhaps Golang will set the world free... Feb 17 12:34:00 once we have the qt bindings Feb 17 12:39:30 i think QML is promising. Feb 17 12:40:31 MisterN: Very :) Feb 17 12:41:27 i'm a little scared of the fragmentation of UI that's likely going to happen when designers see all the possibilities they suddenly have, but in general yeah :) Feb 17 12:42:26 leinir: i love c++, but javascript is much more accessible. Feb 17 12:43:36 (qualification of statement: it's just as bad to have pure designers designing UIs as it as to have engineers do it... neither are skilled in usability, and have a tendency to jump into well... i'm sure i'm preaching to the choir here ;) ) Feb 17 12:43:41 Absolutely :) Feb 17 12:43:44 lbt: I was actually in the process of going through that *g* Feb 17 12:44:29 I hope a cross quote is OK Feb 17 12:44:47 leinir: i think you are confusing designers and artists? Feb 17 12:45:45 hbons: sorry yeah - good point :) Feb 17 12:48:25 hi Feb 17 12:55:45 hmmm, meego trunk's not quiet usable yet Feb 17 12:56:14 there's one? Feb 17 12:56:56 Stskeeps: http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/ Feb 17 12:57:04 oh Feb 17 12:57:05 that's nice Feb 17 12:57:12 * Stskeeps digs Feb 17 12:58:19 * Stskeeps cringes at busybox Feb 17 12:58:43 if you want to make an image, use moblin-image-creator2 Feb 17 12:58:54 yeah, i know Feb 17 12:58:55 so moblin packages have been imported Feb 17 12:59:21 well, I mean the start is from moblin and maemo stuff will be imported later? Feb 17 12:59:47 do we know yet wether hildon and stuff like that will be used? Feb 17 13:00:01 sane practices state that base system first. Feb 17 13:00:12 and? Feb 17 13:00:19 slaine_: no arm repo yet ? :-) Feb 17 13:00:25 and get that booting, then put UI on top :P Feb 17 13:00:43 Stskeeps: Xfce is already in the repository Feb 17 13:00:48 Stskeeps: isn't that some kind of an ui? Feb 17 13:00:55 Corsac: true Feb 17 13:00:57 :) Feb 17 13:01:04 (though I though Xfce wasn't used anymore in moblin) Feb 17 13:01:09 tought Feb 17 13:01:13 rah. Feb 17 13:01:18 Corsac: hildon is for Maemo 5 only if I'm not mistaken Feb 17 13:01:23 oh? Feb 17 13:01:27 didn't know that Feb 17 13:01:45 there was something else planned for M6 (something we knew about)? Feb 17 13:01:49 Qt Feb 17 13:01:52 Corsac: 'community support' Feb 17 13:01:59 ha, yeah, good point, hildon is gtk Feb 17 13:02:11 We knew hildon was going away already before N900 hit the stores Feb 17 13:02:17 yup, sorry, missed that Feb 17 13:02:35 but we knew nothing about the qt successor yet, did we? Feb 17 13:02:43 qt usccessor? Feb 17 13:02:44 MeeGo == Moblin 2.2 Feb 17 13:02:48 Erm. Successor? Feb 17 13:02:56 The new Qt framework is available on gitorious Feb 17 13:02:56 So you get that basically Feb 17 13:03:02 Ah, not to qt, but to hildon ... Feb 17 13:03:07 range: the qt-based UI which would have replaced hildon, yes Feb 17 13:03:13 sorry it was a bit confusing Feb 17 13:03:15 Corsac: I think Hildon's successor is called Direct UI Feb 17 13:03:29 and that's built on Qt right ? Feb 17 13:03:42 DirectUI is a gui library to make win32 gui development more easy Feb 17 13:03:48 http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework Feb 17 13:03:51 mhmh, is it that directui? Feb 17 13:04:04 DUI is short for Declarative User Interface :) Feb 17 13:04:07 Not direct ;) Feb 17 13:04:10 nah Feb 17 13:04:12 leinir: thanks Feb 17 13:04:13 directui Feb 17 13:04:14 :P Feb 17 13:04:23 Is that the QML stuff I've seen mentioned ? Feb 17 13:04:33 leinir: It really is Direct. Feb 17 13:04:39 leinir: there's a Direct UI project for Symbian, I've mistaken the two Feb 17 13:04:44 slaine_: Let's see.. googling QML Feb 17 13:04:47 Aah right :) Feb 17 13:04:51 First hit: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/05/13/qt-declarative-ui/ Feb 17 13:04:57 Wasn't that hard Feb 17 13:05:03 http://www.uieasy.com/directui/ is the first directui link I had :) Feb 17 13:05:04 http://maemo.org/packages/view/dui-demos/ Feb 17 13:05:08 Yes would have cost less calories Feb 17 13:05:08 (Just hinting, you know...) Feb 17 13:05:11 i guess that's part of the reason Qt QUICK is the new name for the entire thing ;) Feb 17 13:05:40 Heh, it's good to see zypper being built in the repos :) Feb 17 13:06:31 auke: is there a reason Xfce's still in Moblin/Meego repository, I thought it was dropped months ago? Feb 17 13:08:18 Corsac: not sure of the official reason for it being there, but it's handy to have for a dev env Feb 17 13:08:48 leinir: http://qt.gitorious.com/maemo-6-ui-framework/libdui/blobs/master/README Feb 17 13:08:49 definitely Feb 17 13:08:52 e.g. using some VM setup, which won't have DRI2 drivers and so the standard mutter-moblin UI would crawl Feb 17 13:08:54 leinir: it seems to be DirectUI Feb 17 13:09:01 Hmm... Odd... Feb 17 13:09:03 Ah well :) Feb 17 13:09:20 Odd choice, but sure thing :) Feb 17 13:09:21 slaine_: could it be used “officialy” for device not supporting gl acceleration? Feb 17 13:09:24 as a fallback Feb 17 13:09:30 I think DirectUI and Declarative User Interface are two different things Feb 17 13:09:33 It's currently not used like that Feb 17 13:10:11 When working on a VM install, I usually boot to run level 3, login, install xfce as the desktop env and reboot Feb 17 13:10:39 leinir: if you look at the examples such as http://qt.gitorious.com/maemo-6-ui-framework/libdui/blobs/master/examples/calculator/calculatorwidget.cpp there's not much declarative in there Feb 17 13:11:54 slaine_: yeah, but would it make sense? Feb 17 13:12:10 slaine_: or there will be a hw requirement on having gl accel? Feb 17 13:12:20 That's how it currently works Feb 17 13:13:12 pinchartl: Indeed... Just strange that they should choose such similar names :) Feb 17 13:20:56 Hello Feb 17 13:22:33 Will Meego support GTK applications? Feb 17 13:22:37 DUI is both Declarative UI and Direct UI Feb 17 13:22:46 Direct UI is a concept of UI Feb 17 13:22:57 ? Feb 17 13:23:00 Declarative UI is Qt's QtDeclarative module and the QML language Feb 17 13:23:05 liel: GTK apps will run, yes Feb 17 13:23:08 liel: yes, but don't write one Feb 17 13:23:12 liel: MeeGo is still X11 Feb 17 13:24:03 villemv: why not? Feb 17 13:24:17 Corsac: it's "supported", not endorsed Feb 17 13:24:59 villemv: people might not write apps only for meego Feb 17 13:25:11 Corsac: Qt is still not a problem Feb 17 13:25:18 and GTK+ either Feb 17 13:25:34 well, Gtk+ might be a problem in the future Feb 17 13:25:45 villemv: Why? Feb 17 13:26:35 the story w/ harmattan was that Gtk+ will be community supported. I haven't heard a statement that cancels that Feb 17 13:27:03 still so Feb 17 13:27:04 MeeGo arch specs list Gtk+ as supported platform, but I'm still guessing that's at the mercy of community Feb 17 13:27:10 but it's X11, so apps will run Feb 17 13:27:17 whether they will look good, that's a completely different story Feb 17 13:27:52 also ncurses apps will run ;-) Feb 17 13:28:06 It's pretty simple - unless you've got a good reason, you should probably consider writing your apps using the endorsed toolkit :) Feb 17 13:28:22 (for varying values of "good reason", obviously ;) ) Feb 17 13:28:41 good reason might be customizing a big existing codebase Feb 17 13:28:54 leinir: my point was that people might not be writing apps uniquely for Meego, so “endorsed” might not be a good reason :) Feb 17 13:29:11 Corsac: Qt is better pick even for non-meego targets ;-) Feb 17 13:29:20 iyho Feb 17 13:29:30 unless you are deeply affiliated with Gtk+ community of course Feb 17 13:29:53 and are doing this without commercial interests, for example Feb 17 13:30:20 but don't be surprised if someone in your community will complain & write a Qt version ;-) Feb 17 13:30:41 I think supporting GTK can allow more developers develop applications for MeeGo Feb 17 13:31:01 liel: you mean pygtk? Feb 17 13:31:19 liel: and like I said, GTK will run Feb 17 13:31:28 Yes, but I also mean Vala Feb 17 13:31:29 MeeGo is X11, a standard Linux setup Feb 17 13:31:29 I don't think C + Gtk+ is a significant "enabler" outside elite Gnome circles Feb 17 13:31:40 if you have a good app, sure Feb 17 13:32:08 but the core MeeGo will probably not have it, meaning users may have to download a significant amout of data for the app to install Feb 17 13:32:08 villemv: ubuntu uses gnome... Feb 17 13:32:17 MisterN: MeeGo isn't Ubuntu Feb 17 13:32:34 hows this then, MeeGo uses gnome Feb 17 13:32:34 thiago: i know. Feb 17 13:32:44 and ubuntu also provides the other toolkits and DEs Feb 17 13:33:08 meego uses gnome? Feb 17 13:33:10 no Feb 17 13:33:16 nor KDE for that matter Feb 17 13:33:24 I understood it doesn't even use gtk+, but clutter + MX Feb 17 13:33:37 MX? Feb 17 13:33:44 No, it uses elements of Gnome at the moment at least Feb 17 13:33:50 moblin's own widget stuff Feb 17 13:33:53 k Feb 17 13:34:04 thiago: Don't forget that GTK is completly open-source, but QT isn't (yet, at least) Feb 17 13:34:05 gnome-terminal, nautilus, packagekit-gnome etc. etc. Feb 17 13:34:06 that's what I got from one of the intel cahps here Feb 17 13:34:09 GTK+ is on Meego architecture diagram though Feb 17 13:34:16 liel: false Feb 17 13:34:20 liel: in what respect? Feb 17 13:34:23 liel: Qt is as open source as GTK Feb 17 13:34:25 LGPL, both of them Feb 17 13:34:39 The free version Feb 17 13:34:51 liel: which is LGPL, or GPL, take your pick Feb 17 13:34:54 yes, the free version is free Feb 17 13:34:56 what did you expect? Feb 17 13:34:59 hey, I can sell you a commercial version of Gtk+ for $40 Feb 17 13:35:04 I buy! Feb 17 13:35:07 wait. Feb 17 13:35:10 does that make gtk nonfree too? Feb 17 13:35:12 mine is better. i charge $1000 Feb 17 13:35:34 I have a gtk+ premium version which is $50/computer Feb 17 13:35:36 the netbook ui (what was moblin) will continue to use Clutter+MX+GTK so it will be in the distro Feb 17 13:35:37 now that I think about it I have a gconf here that you can buy for $500 Feb 17 13:35:58 interesting question - will the phones have clutter + mx? Feb 17 13:36:07 this was not stated publically Feb 17 13:36:13 bpeel: ok so “Handheld UX” will be DUI and “Netbook UX” will be clutter, something like that? Feb 17 13:36:24 (at least for a start) Feb 17 13:36:27 villemv: i think i saw clutter on the diagram Feb 17 13:36:29 we don't know yet Feb 17 13:36:40 http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture for the diagram Feb 17 13:36:40 MisterN: right, on diagram, but that's not accurate Feb 17 13:36:56 Intel does have a handheld UX already built on Clutter/MX Feb 17 13:37:14 villemv: diagrams are always right! Feb 17 13:37:17 i hope there will be a Qt based netbook UI Feb 17 13:37:22 Corsac, i don't know any further details about the phone ui, but yeah the diagram explicitly states that Clutter will be available so it should be safe to use it :) Feb 17 13:37:24 right. and phone UX probably won't have that Feb 17 13:37:44 bpeel: no, don't take the diagram at face value Feb 17 13:37:45 we have clutter on n900 so why not other places Feb 17 13:37:52 villemv: the LG phone uses a clutter UI on the it Feb 17 13:37:58 lcuk: n900 != future stuff Feb 17 13:38:11 clutter will be there for compatibility reasons Feb 17 13:38:22 as the main ui will be all in Qt Feb 17 13:38:56 well, if you are a "maemo guy", use Qt (no clutter, no gtk) Feb 17 13:39:12 if you are a "moblin guy", enjoy continuing clutter + mx Feb 17 13:39:15 what window manager does maemo use ? Feb 17 13:39:25 it has its own Feb 17 13:39:29 on n900 Feb 17 13:39:34 maemo5 uses matchbox-window-manager-2 Feb 17 13:39:36 as a lib Feb 17 13:39:42 wasn't it matchbox with clutter ? Feb 17 13:39:43 hildon-desktop with matchbox 2 Feb 17 13:39:45 and then lays stuff on top Feb 17 13:39:47 and clutter Feb 17 13:39:52 yeah, clutter animates the whole deal Feb 17 13:39:58 composited matchbox with clutter then Feb 17 13:40:07 hd + mb + clutter, basically Feb 17 13:40:35 that probably won't change so, matchbox might be switched to mutter, mutter takes plugins and there'll be a different plugin set for different device UX's Feb 17 13:41:01 slaine_: where do you get the "probably" part? Feb 17 13:41:18 my assumption Feb 17 13:41:55 until concrete documentation is released, that's all any of us have got Feb 17 13:41:59 even if on handsets clutter+mx will still be in the distro, most likely, so you can make you app depend on them and they will be brought along by the packaging/build system Feb 17 13:42:46 but if you want to write an app for netbooks *and* handsets without modifying the UI (and the whole user experience with it) then you're deluding yourself Feb 17 13:42:47 slaine_: hum, it still makes sense to have different WM for different behaviour (netbook/laptops Vs Handset) Feb 17 13:43:27 possibly, but my understanding was that mutter took over where matchbox stopped Feb 17 13:46:34 as long as people understand that Qt is the endorsed & supported platform, and that they voluntarily weave their right to complain when their app won't work / looks like crap / bricks the phone, all is well ;-) Feb 17 13:46:58 if they choose to use clutter, gtk, mx, that is Feb 17 13:47:01 on phones Feb 17 13:47:33 How does Qt make the screen/input differences between devices any better ? Feb 17 13:47:44 Qt - your license to complain Feb 17 13:47:52 right jku_ Feb 17 13:48:16 villemv: it could look like crap even with Qt - so developers should waive the right to complain for that as well ;-) Feb 17 13:48:32 surely you'll still need a specific UI for different devices regarless Feb 17 13:48:40 ebassi: well, at least someone will read the complaint then ;-) Feb 17 13:48:52 right slaine_, but no specific ui library Feb 17 13:48:53 slaine_, that's a point that's very hard to get across the marketing people... Feb 17 13:49:06 villemv: What ? Feb 17 13:49:07 was qgil here last night? Feb 17 13:49:27 slaine_: you can make the "big" and "small" ui w/ Qt Feb 17 13:49:52 jku_: yes, hence why people shouldn't be treating "the diagram" as some sort of stone tablet Feb 17 13:50:01 so you don't need to go the moblin route if you want to make an ui for mobliny device Feb 17 13:50:02 Kokosz: yes Feb 17 13:50:43 villemv: you've still not quantified that statement Feb 17 13:51:00 X-Fade did he say anything about meego being oficially supported on the N900? Feb 17 13:51:00 or shown how a Clutter application would be any different Feb 17 13:52:17 No. Feb 17 13:52:35 slaine_: I'm not saying Clutter apps would fail miserably. Just that the probability is much higher, given the commitments made Feb 17 13:52:41 Kokosz: no Feb 17 13:52:49 ok Feb 17 13:52:54 Kokosz: But MeeGo isn't going to be out next week you know ;) Feb 17 13:53:13 i know Feb 17 13:53:14 i.e. it's a risk, hopefully a calculated one (so poeple don't go around promoting clutter as safe app development route) Feb 17 13:53:16 that's just bias and fud imo Feb 17 13:53:35 t-tan: Non-free software should go in non-free. Feb 17 13:53:53 slaine_: well, Nokia has 100% bias towards qt ;-) Feb 17 13:54:00 so it's not entirely unwarranted Feb 17 13:54:11 MeeGo != Nokia Feb 17 13:54:13 they are not exactly hiding that fact Feb 17 13:55:38 intel is unlikely to force Nokia's hand on this issue (do they even care?). This depends on how much you care about phone deployment, of course Feb 17 13:56:03 * R4lph is away : I'm working... [=P= LogON] Feb 17 13:56:19 intel's main focus is the core parts of MeeGo Feb 17 13:56:34 again, going buy what the intel guys have been saying here Feb 17 13:56:38 by Feb 17 13:57:16 yup, but part of that core part, for them, is clutter/mx. Whether Intel management feel the same, I don't know. Feb 17 13:57:23 hmhm, fun, I though there was a lot of work on Moblin UI. But it was becoming too much to handle for intel maybe? Feb 17 13:57:31 was clutter/mx Feb 17 13:57:42 even them are saying that will use mainly qt Feb 17 13:57:55 rsalveti_, hmm? Feb 17 13:58:02 And like wise Nokia care about the app stack running on Qt not about the core part Feb 17 13:58:08 rsalveti, if you want to create a native looking application for current moblin builds, you need to use Mx... Feb 17 13:58:32 yep, but this is because meego was created 2, 3 days ago hehe :-) Feb 17 13:59:07 rsalveti_: Meego 1.0 for netbook will heavily use Clutter :p Feb 17 13:59:08 at the moment the qt ui and etc doesn't exist Feb 17 13:59:09 rsalveti_, well feel free to believe that will change for the upcoming release. I'm not betting on it... Feb 17 13:59:30 MeeGo wasn't just created, MeeGo IS Moblin with Nokia moving wholesale to it as their core platform. Feb 17 14:00:28 it would be nice (for the weekend-dev type) to be able to use Qt only for both handheld and netbook. UI needs to be redesigned b/w too. Feb 17 14:00:47 amby: You can Feb 17 14:01:05 regardless of toolkit Feb 17 14:01:17 amby: indeed, you will be able to do that Feb 17 14:01:44 slaine_: yep, but will an Qt app look native on both? Feb 17 14:02:10 note that nothing prevents any third party to do its UI based on Clutter/MX for phones, still using Meego as the base distro Feb 17 14:02:51 amby, A Qt theme will probably be made for MeeGo 1.0 to Qt apps look'n'feel consistent with the rest of the platform Feb 17 14:03:07 sure Feb 17 14:03:43 the whole qt enviroment will come in another release (all ui made with qt) Feb 17 14:03:52 that depends on how nokia is going to use qt for harmattan Feb 17 14:04:14 don't know if they're planning to build somethiing that could be useful for meego Feb 17 14:04:35 slaine_: ah, great, native look is a good start for Moblin/meego this way. Feb 17 14:04:40 I don't think either team have concrete plans that far ahead Feb 17 14:04:57 and if they do, they certainly aren't talking :) Feb 17 14:05:43 time for some foodage Feb 17 14:10:47 do you think you can get to the same UI based on Qt and clutter, so the enduser cannot recognize the diff (can be familiar w)? If both are called meego...? Feb 17 14:11:41 ambynot entirely, you can make them look the same, but they behave a littlbe bit different Feb 17 14:12:56 You can make any toolkit behave UI-wise exactly like any other. But. The further you go from 'native' behaviour - the more you're ending up more or less rewriting the old widgetset in 'patches'. Feb 17 14:14:28 For example - if you want scrollbars to be kinetic as in the first set - and the seconds scrollbars don't support that - you have to either rewrite the scrollbar as boxes and lines - and do the scrolling yourself - or hack the scrollbar code. Feb 17 14:15:12 SpeedEvil: this is what I was thinking. Either you invest an awful lot of work into your UI, or you compromise on user experience. Neither leads to any good :) Feb 17 14:16:07 amby: why does investing a lot not lead to any good? Feb 17 14:16:21 surely you'd be doing something wrong ;-) Feb 17 14:16:47 That's the other point. Feb 17 14:16:59 If your reimplement the old behaviour - you're breaking the UI. Feb 17 14:17:05 Unless it's done for every app. Feb 17 14:17:21 Apple is quite good at this. Feb 17 14:17:26 UI standards. Feb 17 14:17:38 would keeping a reverse ssh-tunnel open at all times (when connection is present) drain very much battery on my N900? Feb 17 14:17:42 The hildon* apps on the n900 are mostly consistent too. Feb 17 14:17:45 SpeedEvil: well, apple only has to support one toolit.. Feb 17 14:17:59 i realize i can test this myself, but i havent really developed a solution for it yet, just figured someone here might have already tried it.. Feb 17 14:18:10 splump: I've done it over wifi Feb 17 14:18:28 SpeedEvil, what were your findings? never tried it over 3g? Feb 17 14:18:31 splump: battery lasted >30 hours doing while true;do echo batterylevel;done - sortof Feb 17 14:18:45 3g would by the main area where i would be using it Feb 17 14:18:48 3G modem active and transmitting data is regretfully hungry Feb 17 14:18:53 amby: seriously though, a lot of the core developers only know about this merge for a short time, so plans and announcements on the convergence of toolkits are to be made Feb 17 14:18:54 it's sort of a precaution for if it should be stolen Feb 17 14:19:00 If the tunnel is idle - then it's not bad Feb 17 14:19:17 i want a backdoor into it if i were to drop it or whatever Feb 17 14:19:35 and my provider here puts the 3g devices behind NAT Feb 17 14:19:43 so no good old usual forward ssh Feb 17 14:20:26 maybe one does not need it open at all times Feb 17 14:20:34 robsta: Probably in part I'm already proposing, not just asking ;) Feb 17 14:20:40 keeping the GPS active is also moderately costly Feb 17 14:20:48 * SpeedEvil needs to measure this shit Feb 17 14:20:51 amby: proposing what? Feb 17 14:21:00 maybe just write a script that checks for a certain condition remotely every hour or so, and if X then open reverse ssh tunnel Feb 17 14:21:19 splump: why not sms - say Feb 17 14:21:33 SpeedEvil, that could work as well. but i have no experience on that kind of stuff. Feb 17 14:21:53 just a regular script would be my first approach i guess Feb 17 14:21:58 there is a way to simply do it over dbus Feb 17 14:22:03 maybe check for file contents 1 or 0 on my server Feb 17 14:22:03 robsta: I think in big part it depends on us to define, what is best? Feb 17 14:22:10 dbus-whatever --phone-number=... -sms ... Feb 17 14:22:31 amby: who is "us"/"you"? Feb 17 14:23:01 SpeedEvil, i might check into that.. thanks for the pointer. Feb 17 14:23:17 i'm a bit surprised people havent already scripted a backdoor like this for nat:ed 3g nets :) Feb 17 14:23:45 amby: as has been discussed this morning, if you want your app to look consistent with Meego 1.0 the best way is to use clutter+mx Feb 17 14:24:14 oh this is the meego channel, i thought i was over in #maemo :D Feb 17 14:24:14 because that's what the shell is created with Feb 17 14:24:15 sorry Feb 17 14:24:43 after that the cards will probably be reshuffled Feb 17 14:29:48 Also Clutter and a cousin of Mx called St are the foundation of gnome-shell, which will power the Gnome3 release Feb 17 14:29:58 thiago: *g* at your mail Feb 17 14:30:05 w00t: :-) Feb 17 14:30:38 so the tech isn't going anywhere even if it's dropped officially, community can still add and maintain it on MeeGo Feb 17 14:32:36 of course Feb 17 14:32:44 you can run ncurses apps if you wanted Feb 17 14:33:07 it's a matter of how much pain you're willing to endure in making sure it follows the official tech Feb 17 14:42:04 Stskeeps, irc logs are at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/, as requested Feb 17 14:42:09 you may want to put that link into the /topic Feb 17 14:42:10 thanks Feb 17 14:42:55 w00t Feb 17 14:43:02 not self-referencing, cheering Feb 17 14:48:55 * Corsac w00ts w00t Feb 17 15:18:33 logs!, good. thanks mgedmin. Feb 17 15:33:55 Bonjour! Feb 17 15:34:12 hello Feb 17 15:38:28 hello all Feb 17 16:02:06 The upstream/no-upstream shoe seems to have dropped on the mailing list... Feb 17 16:04:26 Jaffa: indeed Feb 17 16:04:51 crazyness! Feb 17 16:04:52 * w00t is wondering if he did the right thing in stirring up so much shit Feb 17 16:06:12 * javispedro ponders if maemo is really based on debian Feb 17 16:06:40 or if it "maemo's upstream" is debian. Feb 17 16:06:41 I stopped reading the thread yesterday, it was giving me nose bleeds Feb 17 16:06:53 considering most tools haven't updated since etch days and there are tools from sarge days still. Feb 17 16:07:33 javispedro: maemo is hardly a gleaming example for how to do things, yes Feb 17 16:08:23 slaine_: http://www.thestupiditburns.com/ ? ;) Feb 17 16:08:59 leinir: lmao, bookmarked Feb 17 16:09:05 *giggles* :) Feb 17 16:09:09 'tis a good one :) Feb 17 16:09:17 that sums it up nicely Feb 17 16:09:34 I've been thinking of adding a filter for that thread/topic Feb 17 16:10:55 javispedro: But that's a good thing as it gives us experience of what went wrong with Maemo. "Well, we don't want to base of an old upstream" shouldn't *necessarily* lead to a "so we'll do it all from scratch" conclusion. Feb 17 16:11:06 +1 Feb 17 16:11:39 Jaffa: It is very hard to keep up to date all the time. Feb 17 16:11:55 Especially when packages aren't API stable etc. Feb 17 16:12:14 And the more you allow yourself to be left behind the harder it'll be to catch up again. Eventually ending as Maemo is nowadays. Feb 17 16:12:33 Yes, that is the other end of the spectrum ;) Feb 17 16:14:03 X-Fade: Indeed, but having tried building my own distribution you spend *ages* on stuff which isn't actually adding value to the fact of shipping the software to do the thing you wanted. Feb 17 16:14:31 It'd be interesting to know how many staff Nokia had maintaining Nokia's old (forks, effectively) Debian packages. Feb 17 16:14:46 Jaffa: Just grep on emails then :) Feb 17 16:15:08 "maintain-ah-what?" Feb 17 16:15:31 Jaffa: I have a hunch you dont want to know the real answer :/ Feb 17 16:15:59 You don't control API changes in 'upstream' libs, but you do have to work with the fallout ;) Feb 17 16:16:17 hmm, community could keep the packages up to date, and that's what happens with the other lot isn't it? Feb 17 16:16:19 And upstream might not care about breakage. Feb 17 16:16:44 the issue here is stability, which won't be affected; you'll still want to fix on some set of packages and need testing to progress beyond them Feb 17 16:17:13 lardman: It all depends on how long that freeze will be and how much testing is needed. Feb 17 16:17:43 X-Fade: If you repackage a tarball, or you copy a source RPM/Debian package - if you want to upgrade to the newest upstream you've got work to do. Feb 17 16:17:52 If for instance Harmattan was started 1 year ago, the freeze would probably already have happened then. Feb 17 16:18:11 sharpneli: I do, it's either "lots" and so we've been shielded from the frantic peddling or "none" which means Nokia haven't anyone skilled to donate who used to do this ;-) Feb 17 16:18:12 What to do in the mean time ;) Feb 17 16:18:42 "panic" would be the easy alternative Feb 17 16:19:07 Don't Panic Feb 17 16:19:40 You have a point there. Feb 17 16:19:50 * tackat_ takes his towel and leaves the planet. Feb 17 16:20:29 Jaffa: You have no idea how many people are involved. Feb 17 16:20:44 Will be back on this Marble later ;) Feb 17 16:20:46 Jaffa: It really not is 10 guys in a room somewhere :D Feb 17 16:22:06 X-Fade: Isn't that why I used a question mark? :-p Feb 17 16:22:38 And if it is lots of people, are they going to be working on MeeGo on packaging; or is Nokia hoping to move them onto other projects? Feb 17 16:22:57 Jaffa: Actually, let me do a db selection ;) Feb 17 16:24:14 almost commute time, I'll catch you guys later Feb 17 16:24:31 Jaffa, that's a good question. Feb 17 16:24:40 "Being upstream" is lots of work with either investment in tooling or investment in processes. If MeeGo will have those resource to make it work, that's fantastic. Feb 17 16:25:01 Jaffa: It will probably be a shared thing. Feb 17 16:25:26 it was a shared thing Feb 17 16:25:26 Jaffa: Moblin has maintainers now for things they use. So for everything else there need to be new ones. Feb 17 16:25:30 with upstream debian Feb 17 16:27:20 X-Fade: But a lot of the points about having an "upstream" is that it also eases developer pain (cos a library's already packaged). Again, tooling can help, but that's more investment in things which aren't delivering a next-gen multi-purpose, multi-device user environment. Feb 17 16:27:40 So it's a costs/benefits thing Feb 17 16:27:57 Jaffa: Sure, but you can start with taking a fedora package and then modify it to your needs. Feb 17 16:28:25 And then continue to be the upstream distro. Feb 17 16:28:51 But the tooling switch is a real cost. Feb 17 16:29:11 And a learning curve too. Feb 17 16:29:17 X-Fade: But there's talk of *not* taking Fedora packages as a base. Feb 17 16:29:42 X-Fade: What tooling switch? Feb 17 16:29:46 Jaffa: Really does not matter. You'd only take the spec to see what others do. Feb 17 16:30:01 Jaffa: Remember that all Nokia maintainers only know deb inside out. Feb 17 16:30:16 Jaffa: So if you want them on board, they need to relearn. Feb 17 16:30:51 what? you're having a sane discussion? just keep saying that we need to base on slackware. Feb 17 16:31:18 And there are tons of tools now used for SDK testing etc. All need to be rewritten or at least replaced. Feb 17 16:32:07 * w00t hms at meego-dev Feb 17 16:32:19 Sure. But unless the existing people working on Moblin being maintainers are happy with "maintaining the plumbing base packages for MeeGo and any library that an app dev may want", *someone* is going to have to learn or *someone* is going to have to spend time making the tools to make such maintenance as straightforward as possible. Feb 17 16:32:41 * ml-mobile keeps deleting rpm/deb messages Feb 17 16:32:46 Jaffa: Sure. Feb 17 16:33:13 Remember that all this upstream maintaining doesn't add one line of code the end-user sees ;) Feb 17 16:33:26 X-Fade: That's my point ;-) Feb 17 16:33:42 Indeed. Feb 17 16:34:02 Time spent on packaging or packaging tooling, is time away from actual platform development or application development. Feb 17 16:34:15 Bah, missing comma before "or" Feb 17 16:34:32 * javispedro notes a post to debian-devel where someone already suggested a new "Debian Mobile" distro for N900-like devices Feb 17 16:34:52 javispedro: crossposted to meego-dev now Feb 17 16:34:53 cu later chaps Feb 17 16:34:56 javispedro: I was typing something about that ;-) Feb 17 16:34:58 Jaffa: So the problem I see with this switch is that we will probably have another big gap between releases like we had with fremantle and Harmattan. Feb 17 16:35:06 And there the switch was only Qt ;) Feb 17 16:35:12 w00t: ah, so it's under flame attack already I guess. Feb 17 16:35:14 X-Fade: Yup. Feb 17 16:35:25 jak's mail is the most interesting, cross-posted from debian-devel and basically suggesting working with meego so it's code can be used to build a "Debian Mobile Pure Blend" (pure blend meaning all the packages would be in Debian) Feb 17 16:35:32 javispedro: tbh, I hope not, it doesn't seem all that insane Feb 17 16:35:56 bfree: You perfectly summarized my email. Feb 17 16:36:32 Anyway, MeeGo prepare dinner. Feb 17 16:36:39 * Hydroxide likes juliank's idea, though some packages might not meet DFSG Feb 17 16:36:46 X-Fade: haha that's a great meme :) Feb 17 16:37:39 Hydroxide: IIRC, It was announced that all packages on meego.com will be free software Feb 17 16:38:18 juliank: by whose definition? I hope it's all DFSG-free, but e.g. they might make exceptions for drivers like Ubuntu does Feb 17 16:38:54 Hydroxide: IIRC, they said open source, so I guess Open Source Definition. Feb 17 16:39:23 hi Feb 17 16:39:35 buxy suggested to form a Debian working group, not sure about that one, though. Feb 17 16:40:58 juliank: btw, the name "pure blend" still sounds self-contradictory to every native english speaker :) Feb 17 16:41:09 * w00t grins Feb 17 16:41:33 Hydroxide: I didn't invent the name. Feb 17 16:41:35 sounds like a cheap instant coffee advert Feb 17 16:41:59 hahah Feb 17 16:42:22 Due to FCC regulations it's not possible to completely opensource all parts of radio hardware drivers. So in the end meego wont be providing complete distribution if they indeed hold the 'only opensource' decision. Feb 17 16:42:55 at a guess, hw drivers will still end up coming from vendors Feb 17 16:42:59 juliank: reading the text, it states OSI compliant -> in such a way that the licenses of all API components and also selected technology framework components must enable linking of proprietary components or plugins Feb 17 16:43:02 (or at least some of them) Feb 17 16:44:00 seems to me the hardware vendors will be charged with providing the necessary kernel modules and driver support for their hardware platform Feb 17 16:44:43 whereas the rest of it will be open source... as in you could take a generic device that has support as part of the mainline kernel and run it without issues Feb 17 16:45:56 sharpneli: authoritative link for the above (FCC)? For a long long time such statements were spouted about wifi but I think atheros, for one, have solidly disproved that (see e.g. ath5k and the ISC licensed firmware sources they released) Feb 17 16:46:02 Hydroxide: hi Feb 17 16:46:22 glp: hi Feb 17 16:47:04 sharpneli: If it's only firmware which can be load at runtime, we can ship it in non-free; so this wouldn't be a problem for us, as long as we have the right to distribute it. Feb 17 16:47:41 Binary only modules would not be possible, though. Feb 17 16:47:55 (the nvidia way may still work, though) Feb 17 16:48:09 bfree: I haven't seen any authoritative evidence of that either, though I've heard many people assert it Feb 17 16:48:15 bfree: Hooray for that. I certainly hope that it's so. Feb 17 16:49:32 It's not explicitly forbidden ofcourse. Iirc it's based on the issue that with opensource drivers changing the parameters (e.g transmission power) would become 'too easy'. Feb 17 16:50:25 Releasing the source outside the U.S. also works very well. Feb 17 16:50:40 it's also possible that the FCC rules have changed since then, or else that lawyers were being unnecessarily cautious Feb 17 16:51:21 juliank: well, all the companies want their stuff approved in the US and have US business dealings - intel is even based here, and even Debian has significant US ties. but... I think other countries may have had similar rules, too, not just the US Feb 17 16:51:57 Yeah. The skill difference between changing the opensource drivers and reverse-engineering closed drivers is nowhere near the skillgap between normal user and a programmer. Feb 17 16:52:21 So it very well could be overcautious lawyers and no-one willing to risk their chances of getting approved. Feb 17 17:02:33 hehe, I wonder who will decide what will be required to be allowed to use meego in marketing etc. (assuming it's a trademark). What if any non-free stuff can you include? Would be nice to stop all but the free devices from using the name (maybe a redistributable firmware usable with upstream kernels should be ok, maybe not) Feb 17 17:19:50 http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/Intel-WiMAX-Binary-Supplicant-1.4.0.2-4.1.moblin2.src.rpm Should this be in a meego/moblin repo (quick search attempt failed to find a prior flamewar) Feb 17 17:27:23 bfree: it's free-to-distribute, same as most linux firmware Feb 17 17:29:50 auke: It runs on the host CPU, and is thus different from firmware which runs on the card. Feb 17 17:30:39 agreed. it's certainly an odd one, but it beats not having wimax at all. Feb 17 17:33:33 auke: No chance to get rid of it sometime, like it happened with the WiFi drivers? Feb 17 17:34:40 But anyway, I don't care about WiMAX Feb 17 17:35:01 To me it's inclusion or exclusion from the meego repo would be a pretty good definition of the Freedom of meego Feb 17 17:35:55 does WiMAX reception power hungry compared to 3G? Feb 17 17:36:00 does / is Feb 17 17:36:15 bfree: "its", not "it's", or am I missing something? Feb 17 17:36:46 juliank: bah, my fingers just seem trained to type ' and I don't notice ;-) Feb 17 17:37:41 bfree: No problem, I just like to correct spelling mistakes. Feb 17 17:38:13 especially on the N900 that troublesome '! Feb 17 17:38:59 On "MeeGo Architecture" diagram there is a big blue empty square at the top labelled "Other UX's"... Is it reasonable to imagine to fill that with a "MeeGo Desktop UX" that would basically be a KDE flavour, or is it too much beyond the scope of MeeGo ? Feb 17 17:39:34 bzhb: It's magic. Feb 17 17:40:37 LondonBenji: This should read "that's troublesome", shouldn't it? Feb 17 17:41:09 bzhb: i guess it's rather unlikely since it's hard to earn money with a desktop distribution Feb 17 17:41:15 But enough Feb 17 17:41:32 http://linuxwimax.org/Overview "Some user space required components are in binary form, due to current limitations. Intel is working on open sourcing the code in the near future." For certain definitions of "near future" perhaps but not mine as it's been there a year or more I guess Feb 17 17:42:02 oh look, there is that it's again :-p stupid fingers/brain Feb 17 17:43:28 bfree: Well, the "it's" is "it has" there, so it's OK. But would also just write it is,it has,etc. all the time. Feb 17 17:44:22 robsta: an other way to present the question is : Would the repos be sufficiently open so that the community can add a "Desktop UX" that fit quite well with rest of the platform. Feb 17 17:46:22 bzhb: that questions of "universe" repos etc has been asked many times already Feb 17 17:46:33 we don't have an answer yet Feb 17 17:46:55 ok, I'll wait then ;-) Feb 17 17:47:34 the whole infrastructure is being set up Feb 17 17:47:39 give it some time Feb 17 17:48:17 i nearly saw none at moblin channel before, so...everyone here is from maemo I assume? Feb 17 17:48:43 xxiao: there are some mobliners too Feb 17 17:49:20 considering maemo had more followers can we use deb instead of rpm for meego? Feb 17 17:49:36 no Feb 17 17:49:50 I lol'd. Feb 17 17:50:45 after so many years i still feel intel had no clue for embedded space, sigh Feb 17 18:00:57 xxiao: I think most are N900 owners that went 'wtf' in panic at the sudden vague announcement, thinking it'd have some immediate rreprecussions for the n900 Feb 17 18:02:18 actually I just got curious ;p Feb 17 18:02:24 shadowjk... i think a chunk of the n900 owners are devs and they went wtf does this mean for future development :) Feb 17 18:02:37 that too :) Feb 17 18:04:50 ShadowJK, is n900 the latest shipping maemo-based device? Feb 17 18:05:24 it is Feb 17 18:05:29 * microlith interjects! Feb 17 18:06:04 dirkhh: ping Feb 17 18:06:20 microlith, so what are the big diffs from n900 based device to meego? Feb 17 18:06:32 pong Feb 17 18:06:53 from what I see, mostly packaging and multiple architectures Feb 17 18:07:10 both are going tob e Qt based Feb 17 18:08:03 microlith, yeah, that's my understanding too. I was really into the n700 early on but have lost touch with the progress Feb 17 18:08:07 more interesting is the whole community-repo aspect, plus the openeness with which maemo has been associated (root out of the box, user community) Feb 17 18:08:12 eh, N900 is my first Maemo device Feb 17 18:08:36 true -- hopefully meego can duplicate some of that great community involvement, garage, etc. Feb 17 18:09:05 bspencer: That is the idea at least. Feb 17 18:09:20 the trick will be getting device vendors to hop on that Feb 17 18:09:20 does n900 use hildon framework still? I saw a screenshot and it looked like the UI stuff handn't change radically Feb 17 18:09:26 bspencer: it does Feb 17 18:09:28 if intel is going to take the lead(my friend works there on moblin) i'm afraid the community will die away, there is no way intel can copy android,it's a culture thing i guess Feb 17 18:09:38 maemo is x86 too, it's how the "sdk" works Feb 17 18:10:11 xxiao, it is a challenge for us to be sure (I work at intel) Feb 17 18:10:30 but both nokia and intel struggle with the corporate vs. open side. We've made strides Feb 17 18:10:38 we have high ambitions in the open source group :) Feb 17 18:10:38 The fact that MeeGo is hosted by the Linux Foundation is the best assurance of openness we have at the momoent Feb 17 18:10:54 what intel campus is the whole moblin/meego thing based at? Feb 17 18:10:59 * microlith used to be at the folsom campus Feb 17 18:11:12 microlith, it is spread across a few: oregon, china, europe Feb 17 18:11:12 i know intel hired lots of great hackers, but it's like put tiger/lions into cages Feb 17 18:11:21 ok, so north of here Feb 17 18:11:38 xxiao, maybe true in part ... but not as bad as some companies Feb 17 18:11:42 all the code is open, the distro runs on generic boxes and all the build tools are available Feb 17 18:11:48 xxiao... i think that's a metaphor for gainful employment ;) Feb 17 18:11:51 it's not like we lock it all up Feb 17 18:12:00 there is also :http://meego.com/about/governance Feb 17 18:12:06 also, we send patches to upstream projects as much as we can Feb 17 18:12:15 all our own projects are publically available in git Feb 17 18:12:15 auke: no one suggested as such, but it's vendors downstream that adopt Feb 17 18:12:23 what they do and their participation Feb 17 18:13:04 bzhb yeah. "governance" is a tricky thing. you have to have control to ensure good direction but provide community with strong involvement and influence Feb 17 18:13:58 willl there be easy solution to sync and stream media say from a MeeGo netbook to a MeeGo tablet/smartphone out the box Feb 17 18:15:23 anyone knows why moblin switched away from ubuntu to fedora Feb 17 18:15:44 blue looked nicer Feb 17 18:15:48 than brown Feb 17 18:15:52 heh Feb 17 18:15:55 also ubuntu sounds like some disease Feb 17 18:16:01 fedora sounds muuuch better. Feb 17 18:16:03 also blue is the intel color Feb 17 18:16:09 it does, doesn't it Feb 17 18:16:10 auke: but xubuntu is not brown! Feb 17 18:16:42 Corsac: green is not the intel color either Feb 17 18:16:55 xxiao: frankly Feb 17 18:16:59 xxiao, we like to wait for "yum search" to refresh the repository list before finding things Feb 17 18:17:03 xxiao: doing "ubuntu wuith some changes" did not work Feb 17 18:17:06 javispedro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi-go Feb 17 18:17:07 MisterN: xubuntu isn't exactly green Feb 17 18:17:08 xxiao: but moblin did NOT move to fedora Feb 17 18:17:16 xxiao: please stop saying that... it's just not true Feb 17 18:17:20 javispedro: A picture is worth a thousand words Feb 17 18:17:23 RST38h: hehe, I saw that on slashdot :) Feb 17 18:17:27 moblin is based on aukeOS Feb 17 18:17:31 Surely something like #AAAA20 is not the IBM colour? Feb 17 18:17:47 we build moblin from the ground up, even though we borrowed some pieces from fedora and suse Feb 17 18:18:03 err Feb 17 18:18:07 arjan, what are the pkgs in moblin based off? upstream original source tarballs? redhat srpm? debian pkgs? Feb 17 18:18:09 s/ibm/intel/ Feb 17 18:18:11 and meh Feb 17 18:18:29 MisterN: http://www.xubuntu.org/tour is kind-of blue :) Feb 17 18:18:33 xxiao: mostly upstream tarbals; but for some stuff we borrow from fedora, for others we borrow from suse Feb 17 18:18:39 xxiao: upstream, directly Feb 17 18:19:08 xxiao: it was yelled in every language the world has on the mailing list and here, btw Feb 17 18:19:44 xxiao: you might want to take a look at Moblin srpms to be sure, though Feb 17 18:19:56 will meego have a webpage describing how to build everything from source, like other project does? Feb 17 18:20:11 by the way meego reminds me of meebo Feb 17 18:20:17 xxiao: our buildsystem does that all the time.. and there'll be docs for that Feb 17 18:20:40 xxiao: I'm sure the goal is not to make it as hard as possible :) Feb 17 18:21:03 the problem is so far it's _your_ buildsystem, what we have is a sdk Feb 17 18:21:29 xxiao, it's been two days... Feb 17 18:21:39 xxiao... v1 release is second half of 2010 Feb 17 18:21:51 Corsac: good point. we will now upstream to xubuntu Feb 17 18:21:53 xxiao... are you a dev? Feb 17 18:21:53 arjan: btw do you have simulators for running meego/moblin on simulated handhelds / foobar? Feb 17 18:21:58 USPTO just granted a fairly broad Apple patent on capacitive multitouch displays. US Patent #7,663,607 describes a "transparent capacitive sensing medium configured to detect multiple touches" by way of two sandwiched layers of conductive lines hooked up to an appropriate circuit, and also covers a specific type of multitouch display with a similar two-layer capacitive sensor made of glass. Feb 17 18:22:08 simula, yes Feb 17 18:22:18 xxiao: how much maemo stuff have you done? Feb 17 18:22:19 xxiao, are you gtk or qt or something else? Feb 17 18:22:39 MisterN: mostly I think this uses that "X inside X" thing Feb 17 18:22:47 not really, mostly kernel work, u-boot, then openwrt and now a bit android Feb 17 18:23:06 arjan: xephyr? Feb 17 18:23:11 robsta: yeah that one Feb 17 18:23:12 MisterN: Both Moblin host and guest are i386, so simulation makes no sense Feb 17 18:23:16 ahhh Feb 17 18:23:20 most apples multi-touch patents wont stand up in court which is why most only get granted patents in US Feb 17 18:23:25 RST38h: well, or virtualisation.. Feb 17 18:23:31 You can think of it as Maemo i386 target Feb 17 18:23:32 \ Feb 17 18:23:46 qemu is quite nifty too Feb 17 18:23:46 like VirtualBox or vmware Feb 17 18:23:50 or qemu Feb 17 18:24:04 qemu can even do arm-on-x86 Feb 17 18:24:04 yes run moblin in vm is great, last time i tried it did not boot well Feb 17 18:24:21 for netbook, yeah don't do a VM Feb 17 18:24:22 arjan: Hello. Meet Maemo Scratchbox. Feb 17 18:24:23 arjan: but qemu doesn't simulate phone hardware Feb 17 18:24:25 for handset, different storty Feb 17 18:24:31 yeah I know Feb 17 18:24:41 it's up to device manufacturer to give an emulator Feb 17 18:24:45 or just send lots of seed hw out ;-) Feb 17 18:25:00 MisterN, xxiao: qemu support is being worked on, with hw acceleration i mean Feb 17 18:25:13 arjan: So, does Moblin use a chrooted ienvironment on the dev machine or are you supposed to simply cross compile? Feb 17 18:25:14 arjan: i don't really think the device manufactures are capable of making a decent emulator. Feb 17 18:25:26 MisterN, xxiao: the pieces are there in poky Feb 17 18:25:29 RST38h: we have chroot tools etc Feb 17 18:25:33 cross compile sucks; we don't do that Feb 17 18:25:37 ok Feb 17 18:25:44 Rob`foo, i almost forgot, where does poky stand now Feb 17 18:25:44 arjan: Will Ubuntu do as a host? Feb 17 18:25:48 (esp x86->x86 cross is evil, no way to detect missed cross compile health) Feb 17 18:25:57 RST38h: I know people who do that Feb 17 18:26:00 chroot is chroot Feb 17 18:26:04 ok Feb 17 18:26:15 * RST38h isn't installing RedHat. Anywhere. Feb 17 18:26:30 xxiao: it's still being maintained but it's not building the netbook images Feb 17 18:26:50 RST38h: even if Meego is downstream of redhat? woooops Feb 17 18:26:59 xxiao: but it's got the bits needed (patched qemu, gl-passthru) Feb 17 18:27:10 Corsac, everyone is downstream from redhat at some point Feb 17 18:27:21 redhat devs a lot of upstream projects everyone uses Feb 17 18:27:22 good point Feb 17 18:27:43 trip0: kernel and glibc, for example :) Feb 17 18:27:55 Corsac: RedHat has been non-stop trouble for me. Feb 17 18:28:02 Corsac: meego is not a downstream of Red Hat. Feb 17 18:28:10 Corsac: please dont' spread fiction Feb 17 18:28:14 robsta, nice, thanks for the info. Feb 17 18:28:17 Corsac: So I certainly hope Meego will stay as far from it as possible Feb 17 18:28:28 arjan: sorry, it was just a joke :) Feb 17 18:28:39 hey everybody Feb 17 18:28:44 xxiao: i'm trying to find the time to retrofit an obs image Feb 17 18:28:44 though it might be a bad time for that kind of joke, I prefer laughing about that Feb 17 18:28:47 some debian activists have been all too good at spreading that fiction so that people believe it Feb 17 18:28:57 hopefully you guys can streamline the whole meego architecture, maybe give OE a chance as well Feb 17 18:28:58 arjan: Ah, the saboteurs! Feb 17 18:28:59 im getting crazy trying to make things works with that cluster Feb 17 18:29:05 arjan: I'm a debian activist, btw :) Feb 17 18:29:06 and my nvidia chipset Feb 17 18:29:12 seems i'm gonna have to recompile xorg Feb 17 18:29:21 Corsac, i knew it! ...me too ;) Feb 17 18:29:27 * RST38h has to admit that Ubuntu is the first Linux distro that ever worked for him Feb 17 18:29:36 xxiao: i think it's being used to build moblin handheld but i'm not sure Feb 17 18:29:42 RST38h: that's because it's brown Feb 17 18:29:50 xxiao: it's certainly used to build something Feb 17 18:30:00 Corsac: Or made out of elephant's hind parts Feb 17 18:30:09 meego maintains it's own toolchain and isn't inherently binary compatible with any upstream distro. In that sense, it's not even close to redhat or fedora Feb 17 18:30:51 hope one day i can build meego from source Feb 17 18:30:55 actually... Feb 17 18:31:00 trip0: that's a little fud.. LSB is LSB; there's quite reasonable binary compatibility because of that Feb 17 18:31:00 you can today Feb 17 18:31:02 xxiao: srpms are available Feb 17 18:31:08 xxiao: just go ahead :) Feb 17 18:31:27 arjan: Got a question: Who will deliver the base applications? (web, mail, notepad, etc) Feb 17 18:31:28 (and aiui there's a script which will build an image or something) Feb 17 18:31:29 arjan, you aren't going to be able to drop in a redhat repo and have much success Feb 17 18:31:41 any startup page available? i searched moblin before and ended up with nothing really useful Feb 17 18:31:48 arjan: Will it be Intel, Maemo Devices, or will each company have its own set? Feb 17 18:31:53 trip0: sure you can't Feb 17 18:32:18 doesn't say much about binary compatiblity Feb 17 18:32:28 arjan: [for reference: Nokia currently considers many of these apps differentiation factors and keeps them closed source] Feb 17 18:32:29 what about ljpeg8? Feb 17 18:32:32 * Corsac laughs Feb 17 18:32:33 trip0: package compatibility is a whole different story Feb 17 18:32:34 repo compatiblity and package compatibility are different beasts Feb 17 18:32:50 trip0: (but you can't install a xandros deb on ubuntu or vise versa either) Feb 17 18:32:51 RST38h: well, mail is open, isn't it? Feb 17 18:32:52 arjan, package compat was really what i was talking about Feb 17 18:32:54 Are we playing an 'ask arjan' session here? Feb 17 18:32:59 juliank: ask arjan Feb 17 18:33:00 Corsac: kinda, not really Feb 17 18:33:19 juliank: well, while the guy is here, why not Feb 17 18:33:28 RST38h: tinymail and modest at least are (well, there's a git tree at least) Feb 17 18:33:42 Corsac: but you cannot commit changes back Feb 17 18:35:52 Corsac, just srpms are not enough, unless you have something like LFS manual or debootstrap/dbuild Feb 17 18:36:51 Corsac, you must have some scripts to pull things together, but it's not open to the public i assume Feb 17 18:36:58 xxiao: http://moblin.org/projects/moblin-image-creator-2 Feb 17 18:37:27 though I guess the image creator starts from binaries Feb 17 18:38:12 mic does Feb 17 18:38:28 I don't know if we have scripts to bootstrap; we have our buildsystem bootstrap normally Feb 17 18:38:38 OBS has that functionality buildin Feb 17 18:40:26 and OBS is opensource so it should be doable to extract the relevant bits from the repository Feb 17 18:40:29 xxiao: -^ Feb 17 18:41:14 what's OBS? Feb 17 18:41:31 open build system Feb 17 18:42:20 arjan, can you give a link? thanks. Feb 17 18:42:23 opensuse build service? Feb 17 18:42:32 https://build.opensuse.org/ Feb 17 18:42:33 ah...i c, opensuse Feb 17 18:42:48 never used that Feb 17 18:42:53 not an opensuse guy Feb 17 18:43:05 http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service Feb 17 18:54:20 has anyone have tried to run moblin 2.1 in virtualbox? Feb 17 18:54:44 no 3d =>no fun Feb 17 18:54:54 i created virtualbox image with moblin-image-creator-2 and mouse and keyboard does not work Feb 17 18:55:06 virtualbox has xengl builtin Feb 17 18:55:11 at least the latter versions of it Feb 17 18:55:40 If I buy an N900 today will it be a dead end road or will there be a Meego for N900? Feb 17 18:56:12 smhar: n900 plans did not change due to meego Feb 17 18:56:26 smhar: but I don't know if maemo 6 was going to work on n900 already Feb 17 18:56:58 smhar: well, one interesting thing to consider for that is that the Harmattan demo was released on the N900 :) Feb 17 18:58:50 leinir: what else would they release it for? Feb 17 18:59:16 leinir: assuming they were going to release it at all Feb 17 18:59:46 arjan: ping. Did anyone contact you about your patch? Feb 17 18:59:50 Hydroxide: a vm image of some kind, lots of videos and code that wouldn't run on freemantle... plenty of options :) Feb 17 18:59:56 true Feb 17 18:59:59 thiago_home: not yet Feb 17 19:00:34 But in stead they have released something which not only works fine, but runs on the existing platform :) Feb 17 19:01:26 nokia hasn't said anything about maemo6 on n900.. However, if enough of maemo is folded into meego to make it a usable os on handheld, I think the prospects for the user community to create a meego spin for n900 would be good Feb 17 19:01:26 my guess is that Harmattan will either officially work on the N900 without multitouch or it can be made to do so unofficially with community support. however this is just speculation based on publicly available info and I don't really know. Feb 17 19:01:52 and for the n810! Feb 17 19:01:53 ShadowJK: I think some nokia employee/executive already speculated that the community would be likely to make a meego port for n900 Feb 17 19:02:04 Harmattan == meego? Feb 17 19:02:17 Harmattan is harmattan. Feb 17 19:02:26 MeeGo says: 'MeeGoes to N900' Feb 17 19:02:50 timeless_mbp: harmattan == what they were going to call maemo 6 until the meego rebranding - no idea what they'll call it, but it's still supposed to be deb-based until whatever is after harmattan - but it will be able to run deb-packaged meego apps Feb 17 19:03:08 (similarly the corresponding version of symbian will still need symbian packages but will be able to run the same apps) Feb 17 19:03:20 timeless_mbp: that was meant for trip0 not you :) Feb 17 19:03:32 Hydroxide: The question is whether they can change their package format after being mainstream already. Feb 17 19:03:37 javispedro: Harmattan is Meego Feb 17 19:03:46 javispedro: check former maemo6 forum on tmo Feb 17 19:03:50 RST38h: from a branding point of view, yes. Feb 17 19:03:59 The community have been working on "Mer", a version of maemo without the closed nokia pieces, for use on any device. Meego would hopefully fit that role perfectly Feb 17 19:04:02 javispedro: really surprising too Feb 17 19:04:25 some post from I think quim explained that ari jaaski said harmattan would be a "meego instance" instead of a "meego product" because it's still deb-based and not fully converged in terms of the architecture but still able to run meego apps Feb 17 19:04:28 :) Feb 17 19:04:33 arjan: hmm... I thought they would have. Feb 17 19:04:40 juliank: see ^^^ Feb 17 19:04:44 arjan: anyway, one response I got was that they needed your benchmark. Feb 17 19:04:49 arjan: what did you use to benchmark? Feb 17 19:05:00 Hydroxide: ... "since we want you to package your apps for Symbian, Maemo, and MeeGo". Feb 17 19:05:33 javispedro: yeah. they're not dropping the Maemo branding in reference to Maemo 5, and I think it'll be able to run MeeGo apps once they have Qt 4.6 replace Qt 4.5 in PR1.2 Feb 17 19:05:50 Hydroxide: But there plan for Harmattan was to go mainstream with it (step 5/5), IIRC. Feb 17 19:06:00 javispedro: in case it's not clear, I don't work for Nokia or maemo.org or otherwise have inside info but this is my conclusion from public announcements Feb 17 19:06:01 well now it's step 5/6 ;) Feb 17 19:06:22 javispedro: true :) I think for Harmattan they're switching branding but not fully switching architecture Feb 17 19:06:31 Hydroxide: oh I'm pretty sure they'll work. the question tmo is interested in is "will commercial devs package them for fremantle+qt4.6" Feb 17 19:06:57 javispedro: since I think harmattan will also be using deb+qt4.6 I expect yes :) Feb 17 19:07:07 * thiago_home is expecting Harmattan to upgrade to Qt 4.7 Feb 17 19:07:36 thiago_home: doesn't seem to be planned based on nokia's public announcements - they did just release 4.6 and are going to release harmattan this year... Feb 17 19:07:49 Hydroxide: Qt 4.6 is from December Feb 17 19:07:51 harmattan should be mostly frozen by now -- that's the reason I laughed at the idea they were going to switch to meego before harmattan. Feb 17 19:07:58 thiago_home: yep. two months ago Feb 17 19:07:59 Hydroxide: Qt 4.7 feature-freezes this Friday Feb 17 19:08:35 thiago_home: ah. well as javispedro said, I doubt harmattan is still undergoing major feature development at this point Feb 17 19:08:45 thiago_home: especially since feature freeze != release, too Feb 17 19:08:52 Hydroxide: I know, but I can still hope Feb 17 19:08:58 actually, I can do better than that Feb 17 19:09:04 I can _push_ them into Qt 4.7 Feb 17 19:09:12 thiago_home: (sorry if I missed your response; my keyboard broke (ga) and I rebooted my box( Feb 17 19:09:25 thiago_home are there any issues with the patch? Feb 17 19:09:30 arjan: no, not with the patch Feb 17 19:09:36 arjan: but we want your benchmark Feb 17 19:09:42 qgears Feb 17 19:09:47 I'm sure you guys wrote it ;) Feb 17 19:09:50 thiago_home: is quick already intregrated in 4.7 repo? Feb 17 19:10:08 (I run it via the phoronix harness, but that's just for convenience) Feb 17 19:10:08 arjan: to add to tests/benchmark/gui/image Feb 17 19:10:09 yngwin: yes Feb 17 19:10:15 nice :) Feb 17 19:10:18 thiago: I would think you guys wrote it Feb 17 19:10:22 if not.. qgears Feb 17 19:10:34 thiago_home... are those C++0x enhancements going to make it into 4.7? Feb 17 19:10:51 arjan: can't find it. Anyway, something automatic would be nice. Feb 17 19:10:57 I'll let them know on qgears though. Feb 17 19:11:02 simula_: what enhancements? Feb 17 19:11:21 the compile time checks on signal slot connections is one i remember Feb 17 19:11:27 thiago: it's automatic; qgears runs automated entirely for us Feb 17 19:11:31 simula_: no Feb 17 19:11:42 simula_: we need to change the #define signals macro first Feb 17 19:11:51 ok, thanks thiago :) Feb 17 19:12:12 simula_: I'm trying to get them to accept the change to public right now because of MSVC2010 Feb 17 19:12:22 :D Feb 17 19:13:46 arjan: ok, I'll tell them. But they were hoping for a QtBenchlib test :-) Feb 17 19:14:06 arjan: Sorry that I missed the answer, but who supplies the baseline applications in MeeGo? Feb 17 19:14:27 hi all Feb 17 19:15:20 thiago: http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2008/08/fast-graphics.html Feb 17 19:15:29 is the description + URL to the benchmark tool Feb 17 19:15:33 it's relatively simple Feb 17 19:15:52 (this is the COMPO test) Feb 17 19:16:04 it composits a translucent bench over an image of a pyramid Feb 17 19:16:07 arjan: right, but it's not part of our automated benchmarking infrastructure Feb 17 19:16:07 19:34 +auke | hahaha Feb 17 19:16:25 though I think the benchmarking people will be interested in just taking that and adding it Feb 17 19:16:27 thiago: someone who knows qt much better than I, can likely extract it in minutes Feb 17 19:16:30 yeah Feb 17 19:16:42 we didn't have this infra when zack worked for us Feb 17 19:16:44 the tool is already designed as benchmark Feb 17 19:17:20 thiago: and fwiw... this Qt hacking is fun and interesting for a kernel guy like me ;) Feb 17 19:17:34 but don't expect me to write fancy C++ from the start Feb 17 19:17:41 arjan: hopefully our coding style isn't too difficult for you :-) Feb 17 19:17:49 El_Angelo: boo Feb 17 19:18:10 hi meego people Feb 17 19:18:53 thiago: so far I've gotten around just fine Feb 17 19:18:58 admiral0: hello sir Feb 17 19:19:35 thiago: there's another hotspot in the same test Feb 17 19:19:44 but I still need to figure out what that function is doing Feb 17 19:19:47 (it's a lot more complex) Feb 17 19:19:54 arjan: so no template black-magic from you? (http://pastebin.ca/1800383) Feb 17 19:20:02 and it looks like it's doing a software zoom.. but rather simplistic Feb 17 19:20:05 simula: ^^^ this is the compile-time argument-checking code Feb 17 19:20:38 arjan: try asking rweather in #qt-labs in about 4 hours Feb 17 19:20:49 it will be 9 am in Brisbane Feb 17 19:20:56 thiago: templates is where I stopped and put the stroustrup book away. Feb 17 19:21:10 i am very curious about meego platform. When we'll see some sources? Feb 17 19:21:19 admiral0: two weeks or so Feb 17 19:21:25 maybe three Feb 17 19:21:41 can't wait Feb 17 19:22:13 it will have normal middleware i hope Feb 17 19:22:19 define normal ;) Feb 17 19:22:25 arjan: I consider myself a good C++ developer and *I* had a hard time understanding the variadic templates of digits... Feb 17 19:22:41 admiral0: ask questions, I and others might just be able to answer Feb 17 19:22:53 see openembedded, debian armel etc. Feb 17 19:23:14 i just hate things like android and bada Feb 17 19:23:17 admiral0: those are not middleware Feb 17 19:23:24 admiral0: nah it's very "PC linux" like Feb 17 19:23:28 arjan: what's the idea at the moment? get most of the core and build system of moblin and post as meego? Feb 17 19:23:30 (for lack of better word) Feb 17 19:23:31 perfect Feb 17 19:23:45 and then start working on top of it? Feb 17 19:23:52 rsalveti: we've been merging stuff already for a while, on a technology level Feb 17 19:24:03 (for example, moblin moved to maemo blocks around media) Feb 17 19:24:12 and frankly, there was 80%+ overlap already anyway Feb 17 19:24:23 arjan: i just did examples of distros/platforms with middleware that i like and and platforms that i dislike Feb 17 19:24:24 yeah, sure Feb 17 19:24:59 arjan: but to post something I think that it'll be much similar on what we currently have for moblin Feb 17 19:25:07 admiral0 why do u hate android ? I love it on my phone, but got no idea about the code behind it Feb 17 19:25:09 as nokia is focusing on maemo 6 atm Feb 17 19:25:24 besides those applications that we already have a common development, such as ofono and etc Feb 17 19:25:26 rsalveti: yeah Feb 17 19:25:36 Votan: only linux is a "standard" piece of software Feb 17 19:25:45 rest is custom crap Feb 17 19:25:56 so besides the kernel it's totally different ? now commonly used frameworks to tinker with ? Feb 17 19:26:08 dalvik uses a jvm but it uses custom bytecode Feb 17 19:26:16 rsalveti: Well, the maemo 6 name is dead; and branded MeeGo, as qgil said Feb 17 19:26:20 Votan: exactly Feb 17 19:26:28 but nice to hear that we'll have something already in the following weeks Feb 17 19:26:38 juliank: yeah, but I mean inside nokia Feb 17 19:26:59 I doubt that they will change lots of things to move in a more meego way Feb 17 19:27:25 probably they will continue working on what was the maemo 6 and then start working directly on meego for another device Feb 17 19:27:40 will meego will be open as they advertise on site ? Feb 17 19:27:58 sure it will Feb 17 19:28:05 rsalveti: The codename is still Harmattan, but the product will be marketed MeeGo. "Now MeeGo comes to the picture. "Maemo 6" will not be used by Nokia as a brand since all the marketing effort around the software platform will be around MeeGo." Feb 17 19:28:12 it's not wise to close it :-) Feb 17 19:28:29 we don't want to close it. ever. Feb 17 19:28:38 juliank: oh, ok, you're right at this Feb 17 19:28:40 good choice :> Feb 17 19:28:41 i am a dev of archmobile (archlinux arm port) and i'd love to have a nice gui alternative in my repo :D Feb 17 19:30:13 admiral0: there will be open apps that you can use Feb 17 19:30:16 auke: .|. Feb 17 19:30:18 arjan: but how about the gui stuff, can you say if intel is already doing some work with Qt? Feb 17 19:30:18 :D Feb 17 19:30:31 however, OEMs (including Nokia) may decide to use their own apps instead of the MeeGo default ones Feb 17 19:30:38 arjan: in a window manager/compositer level Feb 17 19:30:55 thiago_home: that's understandable Feb 17 19:31:12 thiago_home: sure, like we have with android Feb 17 19:31:28 rsalveti: somewhat Feb 17 19:31:34 rsalveti: android is a lot more closed that it seems Feb 17 19:31:44 thiago_home: but's nice to hear that nokia will work on something that can and will be deployed at another hardware/system :-) Feb 17 19:31:48 rsalveti: the difference is that there are some Android apps that you can only use if you follow Google's guidelines Feb 17 19:32:07 admiral0: sure Feb 17 19:32:08 rsalveti: yeah, I spent the day getting Qt to work on AIX :-) Feb 17 19:32:11 with qt stuff you can simplify existing apps Feb 17 19:32:20 and port them on meego Feb 17 19:32:25 thiago_home: hahah, aix? :D Feb 17 19:32:31 or recompile them for mac & C. Feb 17 19:32:57 rsalveti: on Solaris, we think we hit a compiler bug. Tomorrow, I'll do HP-UXi. Feb 17 19:33:05 Intel Itanium processors. Feb 17 19:33:14 thiago_home: man, you need courage :-) Feb 17 19:33:21 and a lot of beer Feb 17 19:33:28 hahaha, sure Feb 17 19:33:29 thiago_home, do you know of a tutorial to package a simple qmake project in .deb and/or .rpm formats? Feb 17 19:33:31 nah, I like Itanium. Best assembly ever. Feb 17 19:33:40 i prefer arm :P Feb 17 19:33:52 admiral0: ARM is good, but it comes second compared to Itanium for me. Feb 17 19:34:19 You do know that you are not supposed to program in Itanium assembler? Feb 17 19:34:34 ah one question about meego that i forgot before... Feb 17 19:35:02 will meego have an sdk as samsung does for bada? (windows only) Feb 17 19:35:08 RST38h: an assembly that nice cannot be restricted to the compiler only :-P Feb 17 19:35:17 admiral0: MeeGo will have an SDK and it won't be Windows-only. Feb 17 19:35:23 admiral0: probably we'll have something with Qt Feb 17 19:35:28 thiago_home: :* Feb 17 19:35:47 take a look at the current "Qt SDK", which is for Qt development for desktop platforms. Feb 17 19:36:00 thiago: Yea, but I doubt you can keep all the inter-instruction constraints for each Itanic model in your mind =) Feb 17 19:36:01 It would be rather amusing for a linux distro to have a windows only sdk :D Feb 17 19:36:14 obviously, for MeeGo we'll need Atom-optimised and ARM cross-compilers, deployment, remote debugging... Feb 17 19:36:26 yay! Feb 17 19:36:38 i want meego on my eeepc :D Feb 17 19:36:56 * thiago_home will be happy only when he sees an "upload to Ovi Store" button in the SDK Feb 17 19:37:16 thiago_home: yeah, hopefully we'll thrown scrachbox away hehe :-) Feb 17 19:37:25 thiago_home: Mmm, total distribution chain integration :) Feb 17 19:37:33 We're aiming for the same thing with Gluon :) Feb 17 19:37:50 * admiral0 will be happy when he'll see a qt based ui for netbooks Feb 17 19:37:59 thiago_home: that will be too easy :P Feb 17 19:38:03 well, there's plasma-netbook... Feb 17 19:38:11 i would love a qt-creator plugin that allows me to publish and remotely debug :) Feb 17 19:38:15 slow as hell on my eeepc Feb 17 19:38:21 good idea though Feb 17 19:38:25 simula_: yeah Feb 17 19:38:49 right now, I'm happy that I can remote-debug at all with gdb on my N900 Feb 17 19:38:59 thiago: What you call "Atom" is known as P5 :) Feb 17 19:39:08 thiago_home: my n900 is somewhere being repiared T.T Feb 17 19:39:24 thiago: So, I doubt it needs a special optimizing compiler. ARM, on the other hand... Feb 17 19:39:36 RST38h: yes, it will need a cross-compiler Feb 17 19:39:36 s/repia/repai/ Feb 17 19:40:12 the entire SDK will require libc and base libraries pre-compiled (as on devices), headers, etc. Feb 17 19:40:23 gcc and binutils are actually just a small part of it Feb 17 19:40:48 thiago: Well, there is a Moblin SDK already. Feb 17 19:41:11 thiago: And there is Maemo SDK. They come with all this stuff, so that stuff kinda exists Feb 17 19:41:23 yeah, I know Feb 17 19:41:30 now we need to put them together in one single SDK Feb 17 19:41:31 The real question is who supplies the baseline web browser, email app, file manager, etc Feb 17 19:41:42 and, of course, the same versions of the libraries on both x86 and ARM sides Feb 17 19:41:48 but still no harmattan sdk, current maemo sdk probably won't have much to do with whatever will be published for meego... Feb 17 19:41:48 "Who supplies the toolchain?" has never been a question Feb 17 19:42:26 RST38h: that's not SDK. Feb 17 19:42:35 valid questions, but not for the SDK. Feb 17 19:42:45 Suurorca: looking into my crystal balls, maeblin SDK will definitely use the same CodeSourcery toolchain for ARM Feb 17 19:43:15 Suurorca: and whatever standard i386 gcc toolchain exists right now for Atom Feb 17 19:43:50 I suppose that makes things slightly harder for nokia to screw up, then ;) Feb 17 19:44:01 Suurorca: sorry? Feb 17 19:44:13 * thiago_home wishes for gcc 4.4 Feb 17 19:44:21 Suurorca: why would Nokia screw up that? It works pretty well in Nokia's current Maemo SDK Feb 17 19:44:37 * admiral0 has gcc 4.4 in archmobile :P Feb 17 19:45:00 I just created a page in MeeGo wiki trying to sum up the answers given about packaging (why not Debian upstream / why not DEB). It probably needs improvement/correction from somebody more deeply involve in MeeGo than I : http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging Feb 17 19:45:20 We really know why not DEB? :) Feb 17 19:45:29 actually, I want 4.5 so I can do the C++0x with lambdas Feb 17 19:45:42 bzhb: do you need to be a member to edit that page? Feb 17 19:45:51 thiago_home: it's not stable yet Feb 17 19:46:07 I just register on meego.com Feb 17 19:46:32 admiral0: still want it so I can finish my signal-slot compile-time checking code Feb 17 19:46:42 :) Feb 17 19:46:46 :) Feb 17 19:46:49 then you need to give your email on wiki.meego.com and that's it Feb 17 19:47:11 int main(){[](){}()} Feb 17 19:47:24 thiago_home: in the meantime :P http://repo.archmobile.org/arm/core/gcc-4.4.3-1-arm.pkg.tar.gz Feb 17 19:48:00 admiral0: no need, I build my own gcc for Maemo. Except that this gcc produces code that the Maemo binutils can't assemble. Feb 17 19:48:28 I need to compile everything with -fPIC Feb 17 19:48:33 * monoceros thinks that the Nokia 3G Booklet become attractive if it could load Meego... Feb 17 19:48:41 RST38h: I just try to give what I think what was thze reasoning behind the RPM decision. I may be wrong... Feb 17 19:49:04 monoceros: let's hope so. Feb 17 19:49:12 I think Nokia hopes so too. Feb 17 19:49:15 but who knows. Feb 17 19:49:16 bzhb: Is there a reference to wherever that reasoning has been given? Feb 17 19:49:19 <--- works for Nokia Feb 17 19:49:21 it would be nice to see the Nokia Booklet 3G 2nd edition with MeeGo in September Feb 17 19:49:25 thiago_home: :O Feb 17 19:49:36 thiago_home: bastard it's my dream XD Feb 17 19:49:43 admiral0: send your CV Feb 17 19:49:57 i am too young and unexperienced Feb 17 19:50:08 well, finish studying first then Feb 17 19:50:16 studying is overrated Feb 17 19:50:17 javispedro: You can probably install current Moblin to a netbook. http://moblin.org/downloads Feb 17 19:50:19 prefer to wait a couple of years till i finish university Feb 17 19:50:21 * w00t would rather be doing! :P Feb 17 19:50:22 bzhb: rather Feb 17 19:50:27 admiral0: I'd say start contributing to the open projects :-) Feb 17 19:50:32 RST38h: if only I had one :) Feb 17 19:50:39 javispedro: Why you would like to do that, or use a netbook (rather than a normal laptop) is beyond me though Feb 17 19:50:42 i'm one of maintainers of archmobile :D Feb 17 19:50:45 RST38h: the answer given on meego-dev mailing list when people where asking why not .deb Feb 17 19:50:54 RST38h: heh, I dislike netbooks too. Feb 17 19:50:57 bzhb: Aha, cool =) Feb 17 19:50:59 and i am very happy with it Feb 17 19:51:34 Not too happy about netbooks either... But well happy about tablets with removable keyboards ;) (e.g. touchbook) Feb 17 19:51:35 javispedro: Let us just say a netbook is three times slower than my Core2 Duo subnote, at the same size and weight Feb 17 19:51:41 admiral0: here's what you need to study to be hired: http://pastebin.ca/1800383 :-P Feb 17 19:51:53 I have to admit that Qt code reads easily. Feb 17 19:52:26 javispedro: *nods* It's really pleasant to write as well :) (the vast majority anyway, there's obviously glitches as with anything... but it's being worked on ;) ) Feb 17 19:52:34 javispedro: we tend to avoid blackmagic code because we still support some bad compilers. Feb 17 19:52:39 javispedro: they tend to choke Feb 17 19:52:42 thiago_home: you look like you're having fun Feb 17 19:52:52 thiago: I guess that's what I'm seeing unions instead of casts everywhere Feb 17 19:53:07 wiki.meego.com/Packaging, link to obs is broken Feb 17 19:53:10 javispedro: no, that's not choking. That's because of strict aliasing. Feb 17 19:53:31 javispedro: as a rule of thumb, if you need to reinterpret_cast, you may be breaking strict aliasing. Feb 17 19:53:51 ... but this is a union of pointers. Feb 17 19:53:55 but reinterpret_cast is fun! Feb 17 19:53:56 s/pointers/pointer types Feb 17 19:54:04 javispedro: what are you reading? Feb 17 19:54:05 thiago_home: templates... pretty lowlevel Feb 17 19:54:17 unclewerner: thanks, I will fix it in a second Feb 17 19:54:23 RST38h, the current nokia netbook will not work with moblin (if that was what you were suggesting) Feb 17 19:54:24 thiago: QHildonInputContext (qt-maemo) Feb 17 19:54:44 admiral0: I'm kidding, btw. There are C++ questions in the interview, but I don't think anyone in the office can understand that code (save me, and that's because I wrote it) Feb 17 19:54:46 jku: netbooks are dime a dozen, no reason to concentrate on nokia's Feb 17 19:55:15 thiago_home: i am more a C and nutella(r) guy Feb 17 19:55:39 thiago_home: what sort of stuff gets asked? Feb 17 19:56:12 i am curious about this too Feb 17 19:56:24 [if you don't know, that's fine, just interested] Feb 17 19:56:25 thiago: still, I like it. if you're aiming for strict aliasing it helps trying to keep the number of casts to the minimal even if it's not really needed. Feb 17 19:56:42 just because it's so easy to forget about it :) Feb 17 19:56:46 javispedro: well, it's not because of that Feb 17 19:56:52 * RST38h wonders why getting-started page does not show how to compile a meego program from the command line Feb 17 19:56:59 javispedro: it's because compilers do break your code if you don't follow strict-aliasing rules. Feb 17 19:57:25 javispedro: we once caught one in QtCore in a call from QtGui with MSVC Feb 17 19:57:31 * RST38h the qt creator thing looks uncomfortably similar to eclipse =) Feb 17 19:57:43 thiago: ah. Feb 17 19:57:52 gcc did not by default -- at least the versions I'm used to. Feb 17 19:57:55 w00t: ranging from basic C++ knowledge to algorithms to software development Feb 17 19:57:57 RST38h: but it is ten times lighter Feb 17 19:58:02 RST38h, I doubt that very much Feb 17 19:58:12 javispedro: gcc won't do those because it won't check strict aliasing across modules. Feb 17 19:58:14 admiral: I certainly hope so for its own good :) Feb 17 19:58:36 i use it on my eeepc... Feb 17 19:58:40 javispedro: MSVC did, because we left Link-Time Code Generation on by accident (and that meant that the code generation happened when the *application* was linked) Feb 17 19:58:41 thiago_home: sounds interesting ;) Feb 17 19:59:01 the thing i miss most in it is C coding Feb 17 19:59:20 thiago: extra point to msvc if that's working. Feb 17 19:59:29 javispedro: yeah, but customers weren't happy Feb 17 19:59:33 their applications took an hour to link Feb 17 19:59:39 *grin* Feb 17 19:59:45 admiral: What prevents you from coding in C under meego? Feb 17 19:59:56 under meego nothing Feb 17 20:00:05 w00t: for example: what are the 4 C++ cast operators? Feb 17 20:00:05 that's why i'm even here Feb 17 20:00:22 and i also know a little C++ for Qt coding Feb 17 20:00:24 thiago: static cast, static cast, static cast, and static cast =) Feb 17 20:00:46 RST38h: somehow I don't think the interviewer will accept that as an answer :-P Feb 17 20:00:46 qobject_cast, qobject_cast, qobject_cast and qobject_cast. Feb 17 20:01:04 then complain if it does not work or the performance sucks. Feb 17 20:01:18 thiago: well, I only use static cast anyway, so I probably wouldn't like the job :) Feb 17 20:01:22 javispedro: rule of acquisition 33: "It never hurts to suck up to the boss" :-P Feb 17 20:01:24 thiago_home: reinterpret_cast, const_cast, static_cast, dynamic_cast Feb 17 20:01:27 I love to combine templates with cast operators... ok, it's getting off topic Feb 17 20:01:35 w00t: there you go Feb 17 20:01:36 thiago_home: doesn't sound like bad stuff :) Feb 17 20:01:36 * RST38h uses C++ as a better C Feb 17 20:01:39 javispedro, you forgot qgraphicsitem_cast Feb 17 20:02:06 qobject_cast, qvariant_cast, qgraphicsitem_cast, qscriptvalue_cast, qdbus_cast... but those don't count Feb 17 20:02:09 anyway, time to make dinner Feb 17 20:02:26 bon appetit Feb 17 20:02:32 thiago: You are starting to sound like a Gtk+ developer... Feb 17 20:02:34 * w00t starts working on another pyside tutorial Feb 17 20:02:36 you forgot hell_cast. Chuck norris arrives and kicks variable in the balls Feb 17 20:02:44 exactly, they dont count because those casts need to die =) Feb 17 20:02:48 they really followed Stroustrup to the letter don't they? Feb 17 20:02:56 a billion thousand cast operators. Feb 17 20:03:16 Anyways, static cast. Feb 17 20:03:47 javispedro: they smoked his book and got high on it. Feb 17 20:03:56 lol Feb 17 20:07:33 RST38h, that explains why after reading it you still feel dumb - the other half of the book is missing! Feb 17 20:08:01 mikhas: Funny, I never really read Strautstrupp =) Feb 17 20:09:15 Did read Lippman and decided to ignore most of C++ "features" as result Feb 17 20:09:36 started to compile a page for those who keep asking what was said in this IRC channel: http://wiki.meego.com/Meego_irc (help/feedback is appreciated) Feb 17 20:09:44 * arjan still likes the Turbo Vision toolkit... now that was C++ I can deal with ;-) Feb 17 20:10:04 (mostly because it was a port from Object Pascal, which had a sane object model)( Feb 17 20:10:08 BorlandC++ has been a cluster fuck though Feb 17 20:10:13 no argument on that Feb 17 20:10:21 I only used turbo vision with g++ Feb 17 20:10:24 Especially right before it died Feb 17 20:10:29 * arjan is showing he's on old fart I guess Feb 17 20:10:49 * RST38h used Turbo Pascal on CP/M-80. Go beat that. Feb 17 20:14:05 * timeless_mbp grumbles Feb 17 20:14:09 * timeless_mbp hates wikis Feb 17 20:14:25 amby, for important topics that start in irc channels, we found a good mechanism was to c&p the whole conversation into a wiki page, then flesh it out. i wonder if that page of your will be easily outdated Feb 17 20:14:40 bzhb: i'm stomping on your changes Feb 17 20:14:43 but keep the original conversation page as reference for later Feb 17 20:14:46 if they were useful, you can put them back Feb 17 20:16:10 lcuk: you mean save one version w the whole conversation, then clean up? Feb 17 20:16:55 yeah, http://wiki.maemo.org/Mms_implemention_conversation was one such example Feb 17 20:18:02 it worked well, and in doing it that way retained the history of the proposal without deleting it once it got full Feb 17 20:18:10 lcuk: I c. I expect this to be outdated, but most topics are only touched shortly at this moment (e.g. Packagin, which seems to be discussed 10 times a day already has a proper page) Feb 17 20:18:13 timeless_mbp: what mean stomping ? (sorry english is not my main language) Feb 17 20:18:49 bzhb: i noticed Feb 17 20:18:53 ever played Super Mario Brothers? Feb 17 20:19:04 indeed amby, and the overview page for recent topics may well be another great idea if its made available to all users on entry and kept updated Feb 17 20:19:07 lcuk: but I will follow the advice for more complete proposals Feb 17 20:19:18 not much, but yes Feb 17 20:20:14 cool amby :) Feb 17 20:20:24 when Mario / Luigi jump on a Goomba, that's called stomping Feb 17 20:20:26 *plays mario bros jump sound effect* Feb 17 20:20:41 any advice for wiki front page editing? Feb 17 20:20:48 Amby: give up :) Feb 17 20:21:21 timeless_mbp: I expect my enthusiasm to face a painful death around the weekend anyway ;) Feb 17 20:21:29 ok. what is the reason ? Feb 17 20:21:43 bzhb: i made a large series of changes and your minor changes got in my way Feb 17 20:21:50 just as goombas get in mario's way Feb 17 20:21:51 Amby, 2 man enter, 1 man leave. winner keeps edit? Feb 17 20:21:53 ah ok Feb 17 20:22:20 I understood you wanted to remove the page completely Feb 17 20:22:22 timeless: I still don't understand. What does Princess Peach have to do with this? =) Feb 17 20:22:22 Amby: you should let it die faster Feb 17 20:23:08 timeless_mbp: I never knwo when to give up, so I just ignore that :) Feb 17 20:23:16 and do you need a mushroom superpower to edit the wiki? Feb 17 20:23:22 Amby: ignore my advice at your own peril :) Feb 17 20:23:28 javispedro: you need to: Feb 17 20:23:30 1. create an account Feb 17 20:23:35 2. click the stupid link from the first email Feb 17 20:23:40 3. set your password Feb 17 20:23:46 4. set your email address Feb 17 20:23:53 5. click the stupid link from the second email Feb 17 20:23:57 6. try to use the wiki Feb 17 20:24:14 i consider that at least a fireflower if not a star Feb 17 20:24:24 eTooMuchEffort Feb 17 20:24:28 lmao Feb 17 20:24:30 even the symbian wiki was easier Feb 17 20:25:01 timeless, you forgot 7 8 9 10 where you still dont have access even though you thought you had sacrificed children etc Feb 17 20:25:15 and also the fact that after doing that you will be subscribed to meego-dev Feb 17 20:25:22 javispedro: oh Feb 17 20:25:36 yeah you have to uncheck lots of boxes to avoid various perils and pitfalls Feb 17 20:25:41 javispedro: only if you forget to uncheck the box Feb 17 20:25:45 but you didn't ask "how do i safely edit" Feb 17 20:25:49 just "how can i possibly" Feb 17 20:26:02 * javispedro is receiving a meego-dev digest every few minutes Feb 17 20:27:06 * Stskeeps tries to catch up Feb 17 20:27:22 javispedro: yeah well. sorry :) Feb 17 20:27:30 obviously you want to unsubscribe Feb 17 20:27:49 timeless: not your fault, I felt into that bottomless pit a few hours ago actually :) Feb 17 20:27:58 i figured :) Feb 17 20:28:20 *fell Feb 17 20:29:20 henrik ala-uotila is 404 Feb 17 20:29:25 * timeless_mbp gets to be access denied Feb 17 20:29:46 plop Feb 17 20:29:54 oh wow, kudos to shaver user '3' (there is no #2, and #1 is root) Feb 17 20:30:05 Jaffa: thank you for the only sane post in the RPM vs DEB FAQ item post. it's all about the libraries, not the hordes of applications. Feb 17 20:30:14 timeless, I think he had an unfair advantage Feb 17 20:30:18 you can do some kind of mailing list subscription management from drupal but it's a trap Feb 17 20:30:21 morning Feb 17 20:30:26 jku_: you think he's also #1? Feb 17 20:30:27 hrw, hi Feb 17 20:30:30 jku_: hi Jussi Feb 17 20:30:33 "Subscribe for digest (receive emails in a bundle)" should say bundle=5-7 messages. Feb 17 20:30:38 * timeless_mbp just realized that mshaver != shaver@ realm:mozilla Feb 17 20:31:03 qgil is 38 Feb 17 20:31:06 timeless_mbp, yes, I do Feb 17 20:31:08 s/3/#/ Feb 17 20:31:19 where are these numbers from? Feb 17 20:31:26 I am 664 -- so near 666, damn. Feb 17 20:31:40 meego-dev is high traffic now? Feb 17 20:31:45 hrw: very. Feb 17 20:31:57 * w00t grins Feb 17 20:32:04 time to sub I think Feb 17 20:32:08 my n900 keeps beeping at me, and it's all meego-dev! Feb 17 20:32:14 w00t: you're insane Feb 17 20:32:20 hrw, not high signal... Feb 17 20:32:22 i set up another email box for meego-dev Feb 17 20:32:24 timeless_mbp: why this time? Feb 17 20:32:35 asking your n900 to handle meego-dev? Feb 17 20:32:47 I keep praying to the gmane gods to accept my request. Feb 17 20:32:53 jku_: as suspected Feb 17 20:32:53 someone open a feature request to not be notified for specific accounts Feb 17 20:33:00 http://meego.com/user/1800 Feb 17 20:33:05 Access Denied Feb 17 20:33:05 You are not authorized to access this page. Feb 17 20:33:17 timeless_mbp: IMAP, so it handles meego-dev, maemo-dev, and lots, lots more Feb 17 20:33:18 that's interesting Feb 17 20:33:20 hey, I'm a 3 digit account. Feb 17 20:33:28 timeless_mbp: my inbox is over 6k mails Feb 17 20:33:33 can I sell it on ebay? Feb 17 20:33:34 there are <2000 users afaict Feb 17 20:33:37 jku_: I kind of expected to get lots of noise on maemo/meego ML/forum/irc Feb 17 20:33:55 less than 2000 users Feb 17 20:33:57 where do you find the list of numbers? Feb 17 20:34:08 solarion: url hacking Feb 17 20:34:17 go to your user page, you'll find out it's just a number Feb 17 20:34:23 change the number until you get a better number Feb 17 20:34:40 last user http://meego.com/user/1982 Feb 17 20:34:46 aaah Feb 17 20:34:48 aww... if i'd waited five more people, i'd have had my birth year as a member number ;) Feb 17 20:34:52 when you edit something Feb 17 20:35:17 jku_: how moblin guys reacted for meego announcement? Feb 17 20:35:22 * javispedro fins "default send interval" setting under "account information" in user cp Feb 17 20:35:34 * w00t subs to meego-community too Feb 17 20:35:38 right Feb 17 20:35:44 I'm off out for the night to have a few beers Feb 17 20:35:58 I'll be sure to mail the list in a drunken stupor suggesting we use slackware as upstream when I get back in Feb 17 20:36:01 night, all Feb 17 20:36:14 * solarion is 681 Feb 17 20:36:50 30 MiB free storage in meego.com! Feb 17 20:37:25 I have to wonder if that's a good idea, but hey. Feb 17 20:37:26 hey! You could put a whole MS Office document up there then Feb 17 20:37:51 how do you see yoru meego id? Feb 17 20:38:03 villemv: edit your profile/account Feb 17 20:38:05 ah, see it Feb 17 20:38:06 it's in the url Feb 17 20:38:12 * villemv is 43 =) Feb 17 20:38:16 wow Feb 17 20:38:22 I must live in the wrnog timezone Feb 17 20:38:23 should have been 1 faster Feb 17 20:38:27 * sjgadsby is 333. Yay! Feb 17 20:39:02 * solarion wonders if there's gonna be yugo jokes Feb 17 20:40:12 * timeless_mbp ponders Feb 17 20:40:20 sjgadsby: happy number Feb 17 20:40:34 fwiw, the governance model in about/governance seems to resemble the symbian model Feb 17 20:44:15 * w00t sighs Feb 17 20:44:18 or not Feb 17 20:45:03 is Adobe Air available on Moblin? Feb 17 20:45:39 Amby: you can get it from Adobe Feb 17 20:45:49 (but it's not in the default image you download from moblin.org) Feb 17 20:47:15 arjan: thx. I was looking at this demo from Wired http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/02/the-wired-ipad-app-a-video-demonstration/ Feb 17 20:49:28 * Stskeeps submits his view on the whole debacle on upstream Feb 17 20:52:36 * w00t looks forward to Stskeeps' views Feb 17 20:52:47 oh, it's already there Feb 17 20:52:48 * w00t reads Feb 17 20:53:28 did the formatting get shot or something? Feb 17 20:53:55 nope Feb 17 20:54:11 well, "yes", but only as much as 80 column wordwrapping usually does Feb 17 20:54:31 sounds like a sane way forward Feb 17 20:54:51 Amby: boo ipad, i want a giant meego tablet Feb 17 20:55:00 meepad! Feb 17 20:55:03 hahahaha Feb 17 20:55:12 megoopad Feb 17 20:55:14 Stskeeps: btw, please load the packaging page Feb 17 20:55:24 or just goopad? Feb 17 20:55:30 yuck Feb 17 20:55:33 i added two Mer bits, i'd like you to somehow comment on them Feb 17 20:55:35 timeless_mbp: which one Feb 17 20:55:35 eww Feb 17 20:55:44 itdock: that's why I was asking. I would prefer the MeePad with the Wired Reader (on Adobe Air) Feb 17 20:55:48 I guess that's what many iPads will end up in practice Feb 17 20:55:51 "MeePad... My pad, to go." ;) Feb 17 20:56:00 http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging Feb 17 20:56:15 MeeMeePad Feb 17 20:56:36 you see all the egoism these days? I-Pad, Me-Pad Feb 17 20:56:49 :)) Feb 17 20:56:49 * timeless_mbp goes home Feb 17 20:56:50 loll Feb 17 20:56:51 YouTube, YouPad Feb 17 20:56:53 i see :) Feb 17 20:56:54 MeeGos home? Feb 17 20:56:58 iShit Feb 17 20:57:05 timeless_mbp: waiting for wiki approval Feb 17 20:57:05 YouShit Feb 17 20:57:23 that's google's turf Feb 17 20:57:45 And, finally, YourShit.com Feb 17 20:58:00 MeeGoes to sleep. byeall Feb 17 20:58:30 gnite Amby Feb 17 20:58:45 nite Feb 17 20:59:16 No, one way or another, MeeGo still does not qualify as a decently sounding brand =( Feb 17 20:59:19 timeless_mbp: the argument about rpm vs deb is not when one of the tools can handle deb.. it is a full package (imager, qa, process, etc) Feb 17 20:59:29 timeless_mbp: and i can see why it's compelling Feb 17 20:59:34 it fits better for meegos.com Feb 17 20:59:39 compared to the debian suite of things, which is, well, suited for debian.org Feb 17 20:59:47 just look at how much tools maemo.org needed Feb 17 20:59:52 AmeeGos ? Feb 17 21:00:05 amigaos.com Feb 17 21:00:08 * w00t ducks and runs Feb 17 21:00:19 that name is cursed Feb 17 21:00:48 timeless_mbp: i'd say that having a fresh look on the toolset and having state of the art tech (actual public image building, qa tools, build system, etc), is a plus for this community Feb 17 21:00:55 as we need stable tools, not crashy autobuilders :) Feb 17 21:01:09 and these were developed centered around RPM. Feb 17 21:01:15 which is why things are the way they are :P Feb 17 21:01:28 .. and that fixing Maemo would have taken more manhours than taking moblin and dealing with flak Feb 17 21:01:28 rpmeego, see they work together Feb 17 21:01:31 :P Feb 17 21:02:13 Stskeeps: I suspect you are being too optimistic about Maeblin tools Feb 17 21:02:26 Let's wait and see though Feb 17 21:02:30 they are better already, right? Feb 17 21:02:40 RST38h: anything is better than no image builder and scratchbox. Feb 17 21:02:41 end of story Feb 17 21:02:42 :P Feb 17 21:02:51 any informations when meego downloads will be available? Feb 17 21:02:52 true Feb 17 21:03:14 what's the deal with avoiding scratchbox btw, for meego? Feb 17 21:03:25 villemv: because we have something way cooler with OBS? Feb 17 21:03:31 especially lbt's _cross stuff Feb 17 21:03:34 villemv: sbox sucks too badly compared to anything Feb 17 21:03:42 Stskeeps: I only care about development environment actually ;-) Feb 17 21:03:46 Stskeeps: thanks for the reply Feb 17 21:04:00 scratchox sucks for that, of course Feb 17 21:04:04 I'd like to see more about how meego can address this Feb 17 21:04:11 villemv: i -love- developing with obs. Feb 17 21:04:11 but what do the moblin guys use instead? Feb 17 21:04:22 villemv: they are OBS users these days too, i think Feb 17 21:04:25 Stskeeps: my opinion is that nokia just had enough of using non-maintained maemo base system and wanted to get something working Feb 17 21:04:28 yes, they are Feb 17 21:04:35 Stskeeps: so how do they launch the program then? Feb 17 21:04:35 villemv: they have the luxury of no cross-compilation Feb 17 21:04:49 so they treat it as another builder Feb 17 21:05:03 OBS... I should still have somewhere those intel/moblin mails about how to use it Feb 17 21:05:06 but I mean... they use just chroot? Feb 17 21:05:13 if that Feb 17 21:05:22 villemv: probably - our cross-compile is a glorified chroot technically too :) Feb 17 21:06:01 I suppose they won't be installing all the libs to their host environment Feb 17 21:06:49 when can go out and buy an atom-based phone? i've always wanted a phone with 1 hour battery life Feb 17 21:07:04 moorestown is better, rigth? Feb 17 21:07:15 I wonder what cpu is in that xpphone thing Feb 17 21:08:56 Jaffa, Stskeeps... is packaging a distro essentially a QA process? By not building upon the efforts of Fedora/Debian you are duplicating their effort? And wasting effort? Sure you have the flexibility to be more efficient - but improving the efficiency of an inefficient process is.... suboptimal Feb 17 21:09:33 I guess you can easily steal the effort of fedora/debian where it applies Feb 17 21:09:36 arjan, ping? Feb 17 21:09:44 it's all about applying patches anyway Feb 17 21:09:57 villemv: isn't that process called upstreaming? Feb 17 21:10:11 and QA'ing an isolated package is not QA'ing a distro :) Feb 17 21:10:19 I mean stealing the patches from fedora/debian Feb 17 21:10:21 lbt, by the way, s/netbook, tablet pc, etc./x86/ s/phone/ARM/ ;) Feb 17 21:10:21 *THAT'S THE POINT* Feb 17 21:10:27 I don't think that's called anything \-) Feb 17 21:10:43 GeneralAntilles: yeah... I ignore that elephant Feb 17 21:10:44 you don't need to marry the distro to steal the patches Feb 17 21:10:59 villemv: but then you don't have a distro Feb 17 21:11:09 you have a collection of non-integrated apps Feb 17 21:11:21 lbt, for fast boot. Feb 17 21:11:27 I must admit Feb 17 21:11:40 where your syslog writes to one location and your log reader reads from another ;) Feb 17 21:11:41 villemv, no, you dont but if you would one day like that to be a two way street its better to be on speaking terms with your partner ;) Feb 17 21:11:49 I kind of boggled with the whole "we use Xorg and kernel upstream", way to forget every other package that's going to be part of the stack Feb 17 21:12:15 w00t: I'm waiting to see how many 10's of thousands of apps moblin has Feb 17 21:12:23 make that thousands Feb 17 21:12:26 lbt: all 5 of them, at that rate Feb 17 21:12:26 or hundreds Feb 17 21:12:28 lcuk: but if that stuff is upstreamed, you are doing bigger contribution to general good Feb 17 21:12:29 or 10s Feb 17 21:12:49 lcuk: oh hi! didn't notice you lurking, how's things? Feb 17 21:12:59 a lcuk ? where Feb 17 21:13:01 of course things should go upstream, but this is about the principle you can take a bloated fedora package, change the dependancies, remove some ./configure flags, and bam, it's a mobile package. Feb 17 21:13:24 w00t, im a 3digit member :P Feb 17 21:13:31 lcuk: me too! Feb 17 21:13:37 right Stskeeps. so do we know if they are not planning to do that? Feb 17 21:13:39 we're part of a very exclusive club :D Feb 17 21:13:48 they don't have to exlpicitly hdepend on fedora Feb 17 21:13:56 ive been here and involved for a while, ive had a few personal matters to sort out so havent been on this box tho Feb 17 21:14:01 been in as a couple of webchat users Feb 17 21:14:02 they can just take a peek at what fedore is doing and using it where it applies Feb 17 21:14:03 lcuk: a 3digit? Feb 17 21:14:05 villemv: no, i don't want them to, but there was quoted a policy of incompatiiblity Feb 17 21:14:13 lcuk: oh, no, no, I mean I didn't notice you joined.. I was looking for you earlier Feb 17 21:14:26 ahh lol its been logged in all day Feb 17 21:14:31 and i'm saying that's bad, it needs to be a policy of alignment but focus on mobile Feb 17 21:14:34 villemv: go read my post : Feb 17 21:14:35 :) Feb 17 21:14:39 Stskeeps: phew Feb 17 21:14:45 Stskeeps: for a moment I was getting conflicting signals off you Feb 17 21:15:52 * w00t grates teeth at armando's second mail Feb 17 21:16:03 w00t, im good as it happens now :) Feb 17 21:16:06 I thought it was a dupe Feb 17 21:16:15 lbt: different subject Feb 17 21:16:19 same body Feb 17 21:16:25 same terrible formatting Feb 17 21:17:02 is it some kind of japanese poetry thing? Feb 17 21:17:10 hahah Feb 17 21:17:17 * lbt goes to decode the stanzas Feb 17 21:18:16 I have to dig up that "incompatibility" policy thing again Feb 17 21:18:59 villemv: auke's mail - i can see where he's coming from, but i think we need to shape it a little bit to prevent some mistakes maemo made Feb 17 21:19:18 so this is a discussion on experiences and hoping to have a good end result for the platform Feb 17 21:21:24 and why do i always kill active conversations Feb 17 21:21:24 :P Feb 17 21:21:55 you got al too technical. People want blood & passion at this phase still Feb 17 21:22:14 * rmayr is wondering if anybody actually benchmarked dpkg/apt-get/ipkg vs. zypper/rpm on an arm-based embedded device so far.... Feb 17 21:22:25 villemv: that's what other parts of the community is doing Feb 17 21:22:39 lbt: you were looking for me? Feb 17 21:22:42 rpm seems very fast these days. found the link on slashdot meego thread Feb 17 21:22:51 some new benchmarks Feb 17 21:22:54 rmayr: i know that apt gets better with vfp. :P Feb 17 21:23:06 (yes, slashdot had less trolling than meego-dev) Feb 17 21:23:07 oh, I haven't dared go to slashdot for the thread yet ;-) Feb 17 21:23:08 villemv: what link? Feb 17 21:23:14 sec Feb 17 21:23:52 meego: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/02/15/1323200 Feb 17 21:24:13 benchmarks for rpm: http://laiskiainen.org/blog/?p=19 Feb 17 21:24:23 thanx Feb 17 21:25:37 those benchmarks are on i386 with lots of RAM, right? Feb 17 21:25:39 who cares about speed Feb 17 21:25:57 T60 Feb 17 21:26:16 my experience with n900 and other embedded stuff sugggests size matters Feb 17 21:26:24 * thiago_home thinks 256 MB RAM + 768 swap is lots of RAM Feb 17 21:26:47 err, I have started working on IPAQs way back, and RPM seemed really unusable there - that was one reason why they developed/used ipkg as a minimal dpkg variant Feb 17 21:27:09 you people need to move your mindset from embedded to mobile. Feb 17 21:27:17 it isn't a friggen ipaq :P Feb 17 21:27:32 so on embedded devices, I would strongly assume speed to be an issue even now - but as far as I know, nobody has compared that so far, so I would love to see the numbers Feb 17 21:27:46 has someone checked how moblin boys start their packaging? do the steal from fedore? Feb 17 21:27:49 fedora Feb 17 21:28:02 Stskeeps: even at the 'mobile' level, it seems current shipping devices have limited storage capacity Feb 17 21:28:05 * villemv is context switching b/w keyboards too much Feb 17 21:28:11 android has like 256MB flashrom limits Feb 17 21:28:12 villemv: is some cases yes Feb 17 21:28:15 and RAM is limited even more Feb 17 21:28:22 maemo has a quirky /opt Feb 17 21:28:32 pwnguin: yes, of course - but i mean, didn't you run a full debian on your 128mb 2gb x86 PC? Feb 17 21:28:36 only for app storage, and only because that's all the G1 had Feb 17 21:28:52 bye Feb 17 21:29:19 ml-mobile: kind of important to notice we're talking packaging of apps Feb 17 21:29:30 I ran rpm & distros happily on a 64mb pc Feb 17 21:29:38 rpm & deb Feb 17 21:30:10 Stskeeps: actually, my pc was 10gb and 256MB. and debian didn't use a 256MB rootfs Feb 17 21:30:16 and you should also think about the fact that most of the packages will be installed in an image that gets deployed, any later package updates are minimal Feb 17 21:30:17 villemv, what if your primary storage was 256mb Feb 17 21:30:31 hey, we got emmc to take care of that Feb 17 21:30:39 anaZ: except app repository updates etc.. Feb 17 21:30:44 does deb take less space than rpm db? Feb 17 21:30:48 anaZ: but yes, it really shouldn't be a problem Feb 17 21:30:57 pwnguin: this is a quite i use very often: We should stop seeing the tablets as strictly under-powered embedded systems, and see them for what they really are—powerful, power-efficient, economical handheld computers. Not simply hopped-up electronic calendars, but real computers that are capable of almost as much computing as a laptop. Feb 17 21:31:24 pwnguin: Maemo has a quirky /opt because the rootfs is too small. Feb 17 21:31:27 my n810 is an underpowered device ;-) Feb 17 21:31:33 I don't even know if yum/zypper/rpm would consume less memory and/or be faster than apt-get/dpkg on mobile/embedded devices, but I think it is an issue - is there anybody who hasn't had to increase memory limits for apt-get on desktop systems? so it's not completely lightweight either.... I'm just wondering why nobody has actually tried both on actual ARM systems... Feb 17 21:31:34 i think laptops are MORE limited in scope than handhelds Feb 17 21:31:47 * timeless_mbp pokes stanojr Feb 17 21:31:50 * timeless_mbp pokes Stskeeps Feb 17 21:31:53 timeless_mbp: mm? Feb 17 21:32:00 Stskeeps: and how does this perspective change anything? we should pretend rootfs won't be too small? Feb 17 21:32:00 did you look at the packaging page? Feb 17 21:32:03 I happily run Debian on the n810, thanks to Syskeeps. Feb 17 21:32:08 Stskeeps Feb 17 21:32:08 timeless_mbp: yes, i responded to it? Feb 17 21:32:13 timeless_mbp: earlier in the convo Feb 17 21:32:22 Stskeeps: i dropped off to go home :) Feb 17 21:32:42 timeless_mbp: i'd say that having a fresh look on the toolset and having state of the art tech (actual public image building, qa tools, build system, etc), is a plus for this community Feb 17 21:32:59 and these were developed centered around RPM. Feb 17 21:33:27 as we need stable tools, not crashy autobuilders and other items :) Feb 17 21:33:41 sure, but there are two parts of the deal: building packages and installing them... Feb 17 21:33:42 and many of the tools they have simply doesn't exist, we had to invent them for ourselves Feb 17 21:34:02 note that i'm not saying that what maemo has is good in these areas Feb 17 21:34:41 :nod: Feb 17 21:34:54 i'm just saying the issue isn't as simple as they seem :) Feb 17 21:34:59 oh, sure Feb 17 21:35:08 I think we all agree on that ;) Feb 17 21:35:16 nice blog: http://www.allmeegodevices.com/2010/02/17/meego-a-whole-new-linux-ballgame/ Feb 17 21:35:17 hey, does anyone have a useful url for a moblin vm? Feb 17 21:35:26 i can run Mer in a vm w/o any effort Feb 17 21:35:28 anaZ: hey - sorry - busy :) It was about creating a link to your OBS - sorted now. Feb 17 21:35:34 timeless_mbp: i think ubuntu has one ;) Feb 17 21:35:43 ?? Feb 17 21:38:01 evening all Feb 17 21:38:27 * itdock yawns Feb 17 21:38:51 you can use image creator to create vmware / virtualbox image Feb 17 21:38:59 http://moblin.org/projects/moblin-image-creator-2 Feb 17 21:39:08 Just a small question ladys and gentlemen.. Why OR rather how is a 256mb internal memory something bad when its not like a dir must reside on the internal memory but can exist outside (not as in a removeble SD card or the like but another internal memory). I mean ALL rootfs dont have to reside there. (!?) Feb 17 21:39:31 all rootfs has to reside there Feb 17 21:39:38 timeless_mbp: packages.ubuntu.com/moblin Feb 17 21:39:42 mereI: the internal memory is faster Feb 17 21:40:04 pwnguin: eWayTooComplicated Feb 17 21:40:12 timeless_mbp: probably Feb 17 21:40:12 mereI, indeed /home and /opt are not on the 256M / Feb 17 21:40:27 /opt is a symlink to /home/opt Feb 17 21:40:29 timeless_mbp: i'll be fighting the usual Mer fights in MeeGo, for sure :) Feb 17 21:40:32 timeless_mbp: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile Feb 17 21:40:41 /home is a 2 GB fs on the mass memory Feb 17 21:40:44 if you create a "normal" deb w/o optification, it ends up on nand Feb 17 21:40:54 then there's a 30 GB /home/user/MyDocs formatted as VFAT Feb 17 21:40:57 due to /usr/lib, /usr/bin being there Feb 17 21:41:14 timeless_mbp: i havent looked recently but i think the MID edition is moblin based Feb 17 21:41:25 pwnguin: i want a stupid .vmdk Feb 17 21:41:45 this is apparently an unreasonable reuqest Feb 17 21:41:48 there are also a couple of bind-mounts Feb 17 21:41:48 s/uq/qu/ Feb 17 21:41:55 someone should create a vmdk w/o atom req, and seed on bittorrent Feb 17 21:42:15 unfortunately, some "obvious" bind mounts are not there by default Feb 17 21:42:27 e.g. /usr/local, /usr/lib/debug Feb 17 21:42:28 timeless, can vmware run .iso? The moblin iso apparently let's you choose live or install Feb 17 21:42:30 I mean, the barebone just boot and run yes. But the rest can reside outside... (?) Feb 17 21:42:41 mereI: rigth Feb 17 21:42:43 ShadowJK: iso is fine, yes Feb 17 21:42:51 i'm grabbing a .img Feb 17 21:42:55 i presume it's actually a .iso Feb 17 21:43:10 mereI: that's what "optification" does Feb 17 21:43:18 villemv: who installs debug packages onto the device? Feb 17 21:43:23 villemv: as for /usr/local, it's empty Feb 17 21:43:46 http://moblin.org/downloads http://moblin.org/documentation/test-drive-moblin/using-moblin-live-image I guess Feb 17 21:43:55 arjan: auke you about ? Feb 17 21:43:58 thiago_home: people occasionally do, to debug there Feb 17 21:44:08 w/o remote debugger setup Feb 17 21:44:19 * ShadowJK wonders if vmware or kvm has ssse3 support.. Feb 17 21:44:34 villemv: no Feb 17 21:44:34 villemv: yes I understand that, and because of that I dnt understand why all the fuss is about the 256.. If its done properly it works Feb 17 21:44:42 villemv: to debug there, you put the debug packages on the host machine Feb 17 21:44:42 i,ve run gdb on a virtex4 fpga, with debug rpms Feb 17 21:44:51 villemv: where you run gdb, not gdbserver Feb 17 21:44:52 timeless, seems like you need gma950 graphics too :/ Feb 17 21:44:59 ?? Feb 17 21:45:42 You can't use the MoblinUX under vbox/vmware as there's no dri2 drivers Feb 17 21:46:16 thiago_home: yeah, I get the basic idea. people occasionally debug w/o remote gdb as well Feb 17 21:46:18 I typically boot to run level 3 and then install Xfce desktop for a vm install Feb 17 21:46:30 (not that it makes sense necessarily) Feb 17 21:46:37 villemv: yeah, understood Feb 17 21:46:53 slaine_: glory Feb 17 21:47:09 slaine_: i don't suppose you have an image you're willing to share? Feb 17 21:47:21 not really Feb 17 21:47:24 there's a blog entry from someone @intel about vbox 2.2.2 where he had something moblinish working Feb 17 21:47:34 it's pretty simple though Feb 17 21:47:52 It works, you need to enable PAE and 3d iirc, it's just DOG SLOW Feb 17 21:48:30 mereI: my fuss is that every firmware update involves a mass uninstallation because it wasn't done 'properly'. even with optification. this is far more problematic than whether apt-get or zypper uses fewer CPU cycles, imo Feb 17 21:48:41 slaine_: i need to do some spot checking to see how certain things work Feb 17 21:48:42 unusable for anything productive. Though I suppose you could just ssh in from the host os, that's what I do at work typically Feb 17 21:48:48 having something moblinish working in a virtual machine is not much of a problem. works in vmware at least Feb 17 21:48:57 Are you using virtual box ? Feb 17 21:49:09 esx Feb 17 21:49:19 that was meant for timeless_mbp Feb 17 21:49:28 I've not used vmware for eons Feb 17 21:49:28 vbox 3.1.4 Feb 17 21:49:39 and I assume your on osx, given the mbp postfix Feb 17 21:50:33 how do people test/devel moblin then - if as i discovered last night i cant actively buy devices with it, the vm images are sluggish at best? Feb 17 21:51:05 you can install it on atom laptop Feb 17 21:51:05 slaine_: how much ram should i assign? 256/512/1gb? Feb 17 21:51:18 Works on more or less generic i386 hw Feb 17 21:51:20 or a "modern" intel pc Feb 17 21:51:27 villemv: would that include an eeePC? Feb 17 21:51:31 * timeless_mbp has access to one of those Feb 17 21:51:35 timeless_mbp: iirc, enable PAE uder settings->system->processor and it should work. I gave mine 512Mb Feb 17 21:51:36 yeah, if you make a custom image Feb 17 21:51:36 AFAIK also works on some samsung/lg UMPCs Feb 17 21:51:40 lcuk: you can install it on netbooks Feb 17 21:51:43 timeless_mbp: 901+ Feb 17 21:51:53 timeless_mbp: 900 / 700 = no-go Feb 17 21:51:54 villemv: i think so Feb 17 21:52:00 hrm, i'll have to check Feb 17 21:52:08 Needs to be Atom Feb 17 21:52:12 8gb disk? Feb 17 21:52:16 well, you'll need a different image for non-atom Feb 17 21:52:16 yeah Feb 17 21:52:25 * lbt proposes openSuse as an upstream Feb 17 21:52:26 and there's none prebuilt Feb 17 21:52:29 Does not have to be atom Feb 17 21:52:31 slaine_: atom, or a pc with "prescott" extensions o rwhatever Feb 17 21:52:39 ssse3 Feb 17 21:52:40 But yes may need a new image Feb 17 21:52:50 lbt: ah, the 'everybody loses' compromise :) Feb 17 21:53:01 yeah, in /proc/cpuinfo it was abbreviation of prescot something Feb 17 21:53:02 lbt: ? Feb 17 21:53:04 prescott is no longer an extension, it is a must :) Feb 17 21:53:13 pwnguin: well in that case I suggest that you make a proposal abut the packages have an url or something in them so that it easy for a application to make a list of what needs to be uninstalled and saves that list and when the update is complete and u run the backup tool u choose install previuos packages before upgrade and the package manager grabs and install your stuff. Feb 17 21:53:16 sent to the ml Feb 17 21:53:22 PNI Feb 17 21:53:32 "prescott new instructions" Feb 17 21:53:35 I want MeeGo to have an upstream Feb 17 21:53:40 probably sse3 Feb 17 21:53:41 Ryback_: ^^ Feb 17 21:53:44 SSE3 = PNI != SSSE3, right Feb 17 21:54:01 lbt: that makes no sense, imho Feb 17 21:54:02 that doesn't compute Feb 17 21:54:03 mereI: punctuation isn't expensive. neither is rdepends Feb 17 21:54:06 so what handheld device can i put moblin on, which is the prefered/best/simplest method of getting a handheld device now andputting moblin on it. and which devices work Feb 17 21:54:06 lbt: MeeGo has many upstreams... Feb 17 21:54:07 so as a dev I can pull in a library from the thousands out there Feb 17 21:54:26 anaZ: yeah - that's the beauty of standards Feb 17 21:54:32 SSE3 === PNI Feb 17 21:54:37 anaZ: read the mail :) Feb 17 21:54:38 lcuk: most netbooks will work Feb 17 21:54:44 netbook doesnt have touch Feb 17 21:54:47 I tried to explain my reasoning Feb 17 21:54:48 and for me thats a big - Feb 17 21:54:53 anaZ: upstreams on source level, not packaging level Feb 17 21:54:55 ubuntu/windows works on those Feb 17 21:55:00 villemv: PNI isn't very official name :) Feb 17 21:55:02 lbt: ++ Feb 17 21:55:09 lcuk: dell minis should work afaik Feb 17 21:55:10 Stskeeps: and QA on a distro level Feb 17 21:55:11 (re: ml) Feb 17 21:55:12 which MID/handheld device Feb 17 21:55:19 lcuk, Moblin 2.2 was the first release due to support MID's Feb 17 21:55:32 RST38h: that's still what you have in /proc/cpuinfo Feb 17 21:55:33 lbt: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000147.html Feb 17 21:55:36 lcuk: ^^ Feb 17 21:55:40 hello Feb 17 21:55:41 lbt: incompatibility is a feature! Feb 17 21:55:43 anaZ: nice to meet you btw - you're the "other side's" obs guy? Feb 17 21:55:55 pwnguin: this is part of the response Feb 17 21:55:56 lcuk: http://jkontherun.com/2009/10/13/moblin-live-image-netbooks/ Feb 17 21:56:15 does moblin run on asus 900a? Feb 17 21:56:22 manavs_: I think so Feb 17 21:56:24 RST38h, i just said, netbooks dont have touch generally Feb 17 21:56:28 the 900a is atom so yes Feb 17 21:56:29 i am happy with os on my laptop Feb 17 21:56:30 manavs_: sadly no; 900a is celeron Feb 17 21:56:33 lcuk: So it will not have touch Feb 17 21:56:34 (afaik) Feb 17 21:56:37 ill look around Feb 17 21:56:38 I think it is atom Feb 17 21:56:41 check Feb 17 21:56:46 I thought 900 non-a is celeron Feb 17 21:56:47 some 900a's are celeron Feb 17 21:56:48 not atom Feb 17 21:56:56 I have the smelly little 900 Feb 17 21:56:58 if it's atom it'll work Feb 17 21:57:11 arjan: was just about to ask that Feb 17 21:57:13 I've that netbook and it is definitely an atom Feb 17 21:57:16 * microlith ponders loading moblin on his aspire one Feb 17 21:57:16 Just about anything should work Feb 17 21:57:17 omigosh Feb 17 21:57:20 Warning Feb 17 21:57:27 can it be installed to the ssd? Feb 17 21:57:30 arjan: what's the likely hood of the ssse3 dep going away ? Feb 17 21:57:37 "The partition table on device sda (ATA VBOX HARDDISK 8189 Feb 17 21:57:39 MB) was unreadable. Feb 17 21:57:44 slaine_: not very high; it gives abuot 10 to 15% performance Feb 17 21:57:48 To create new partitions it must be initialized, causing the Feb 17 21:57:52 loss of ALL DATA on this drive. Feb 17 21:57:55 manavs_: I use a 901 all the time, that's very similar Feb 17 21:58:00 This operation will override any previous installation choices Feb 17 21:58:00 arjan, in what ? Feb 17 21:58:05 about which drives to ignore. Feb 17 21:58:11 slaine_: all floating point operations Feb 17 21:58:11 * w00t eyes timeless_mbp Feb 17 21:58:14 Would you like to initialize this drive, erasing ALL DATA? Feb 17 21:58:15 " Feb 17 21:58:19 slaine_: Atom really does not like x87 Feb 17 21:58:25 w00t: "user friendly? "No" "Yes" Feb 17 21:58:26 slaine_: SSE3 exists since 2004 Feb 17 21:58:37 i've not run moblin yet, does it run live or can it be installed? Feb 17 21:58:38 timeless_mbp: no, but that paste was really disturbing :P Feb 17 21:58:42 slaine_: You have got a CPU that does not support it? Feb 17 21:58:42 'cause I've benchmarked moblin and it's typically slower than other distros Feb 17 21:58:46 Lots Feb 17 21:58:59 w00t: hey, i had to hand type it! Feb 17 21:59:01 manavs_: either way Feb 17 21:59:07 At lot of embedded devices are built around Celerons and 855GM Feb 17 21:59:08 RST38h: sse3 != ssse3 Feb 17 21:59:09 thanks Feb 17 21:59:32 seriously streaming simd extensions? Feb 17 21:59:41 Filthy dirty hardware, but I personally manage about 16,000+ of these devices Feb 17 21:59:50 ok SSSE3 is Merom Feb 17 22:00:12 running a fedora moblin spin shows acceptable performance on Atom and on this hardware Feb 17 22:00:13 Which is also not exactly fresh Feb 17 22:00:13 ah, "supplemental" Feb 17 22:00:50 at least with all the slow performance in emulated environment we will get great results on actual hardware Feb 17 22:00:51 Core2 Duo should make the job Feb 17 22:01:06 since devs will work extra hard to ensure its quick Feb 17 22:01:38 yeah, my core 2 duo has pni, ssse3 Feb 17 22:01:41 arjan: anyway. What I'd like to know now is, how can I help Feb 17 22:01:47 pni is what matters I guess Feb 17 22:01:50 Core2 Duo is SUPPOSED to have SSSE3 Feb 17 22:01:52 I've built MeeGo trunk Feb 17 22:02:11 I've booted it and it's pretty rough at the moment. Feb 17 22:02:18 So what's the plan here Feb 17 22:02:30 arjan: so how do you develop with moblin? do you use a chroot or what? Feb 17 22:02:43 or do you use moblin as host environment while you do it? Feb 17 22:02:43 How are patches to be submitted etc. Feb 17 22:02:58 Well my personal plan is to go hit the bed and continue using Maemo5 for now :) Feb 17 22:03:07 villemv: OBS makes chroot setup trivial Feb 17 22:03:25 ok, so OBS creates a chroot "rootstrap" for you? Feb 17 22:03:31 as doe the moblin tools Feb 17 22:03:44 villemv: essentially, yes Feb 17 22:03:58 and you use xephyr too? Feb 17 22:04:01 it has flexibility and can create 1/pkg per arch Feb 17 22:04:04 yes you can Feb 17 22:04:18 usually the chroots are minimal based on build-deps Feb 17 22:04:32 irc://irc.freenode.net/bratwurst <------------ meego-professional-helpdesk german/english Feb 17 22:04:37 you can extend them to full envs for testing or use vms Feb 17 22:05:16 okay, so we can have all that we have have w/ sbox then Feb 17 22:05:30 and more (without the "ugh") Feb 17 22:05:30 * timeless_mbp gets a moblin boot screen Feb 17 22:05:39 the white on black is a lot nicer than nokia's blue on white :) Feb 17 22:05:45 villemv: it's really nice :) Feb 17 22:06:04 sounds like it Feb 17 22:06:40 villemv: feel free to bug me about it - but you'll have to teach others anything you learn ;) Feb 17 22:06:43 slaine_: i thought meego sources wouldn't be available for a whlie Feb 17 22:06:48 s/lie/ile/ Feb 17 22:07:20 villemv: and just to play with it you can look at this tutorial - it's worthwile even though it's not moblin : http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build Feb 17 22:07:35 lbt: thanks for the offer, I might actually bring you up to task on that ;-) Feb 17 22:07:50 focus on the Getting Started para - it's a cut'n'paste step by step Feb 17 22:08:02 villemv: are you nokian btw Feb 17 22:08:07 yes Feb 17 22:08:23 we have some internal training material too Feb 17 22:08:33 lbt on p.m.o. Feb 17 22:08:39 but luckily I'm clueless about this new development, so I don't breach any NDA's by looknig stupid here :-) Feb 17 22:08:58 url? Feb 17 22:09:17 or is that ml? Feb 17 22:09:23 jabber? Feb 17 22:09:38 ah, no, I don't use p.m.o jabber Feb 17 22:09:49 I thought you had some material up on PMO Feb 17 22:10:03 sec, pm Feb 17 22:11:26 slaine_: so, my vm doesn't seem to boot past the moblin splash screen Feb 17 22:11:32 is there a way for me to do something? Feb 17 22:20:55 auke: thanks for the kind words, - think a CC to the list would work too to calm the waters :) Feb 17 22:21:53 list? Feb 17 22:22:00 meego-dev Feb 17 22:22:01 meego-dev, probably Feb 17 22:23:56 Stskeeps: shush, don't want to be seen brown-nosing too much :) Feb 17 22:26:09 timeless_mbp: tbh I can't recall if I needed to do anything extra, I've had that VM for a almost 2 years I think Feb 17 22:26:47 slaine_: you sure i can't convince you to clone your vm, strip out all the private bits and publish? Feb 17 22:27:18 or find out if anyone else has a fresh clean one somewhere Feb 17 22:27:37 I'm sure there's details out there on googleland Feb 17 22:27:57 slaine_: google land isn't being kind to me Feb 17 22:29:19 slaine_, i would consider irc to be better for an active community, and it only takes one knowledgable person with the info to post a link than having us as technical n00bs scavenging around not knowing exactly which is right Feb 17 22:29:57 timeless_mbp: can you check if ACPI/IO APIC/PAE are all enabled ? Feb 17 22:30:01 iirc, you need them all Feb 17 22:30:43 i have IO APIC checked Feb 17 22:30:49 and pae/nx Feb 17 22:31:00 and vt-x/amd-v and nested paging Feb 17 22:31:14 * timeless_mbp enables 3d accel and 2d accel Feb 17 22:31:34 afk anyway, cyas later timeless w00t etc \o Feb 17 22:31:38 turn off 3d accel Feb 17 22:31:38 Stskeeps, ^ Feb 17 22:31:52 later lcuk Feb 17 22:31:59 bye lcuk Feb 17 22:32:42 boot on init3 in console mod Feb 17 22:33:11 alt+f1 on moblin boot then access grub Feb 17 22:33:35 koupsa: ok, alt+f1 got me grub Feb 17 22:33:39 'now what' Feb 17 22:33:41 cya lcuk Feb 17 22:33:52 * GeneralAntilles wonders who the Bugzilla contact is Moblin-side. Feb 17 22:34:13 erase quiet and (arf i dont remember) 2minutes Feb 17 22:34:19 GeneralAntilles: for maintenance or QA? Feb 17 22:34:30 boot on console mode init3 then startx Feb 17 22:35:00 auke, for the web stuff. Feb 17 22:35:05 moblin-2.1-final-20091103-002.img: ISO 9660 CD-ROM. uhh.. Feb 17 22:35:11 auke, I'd like to try to start coordinating between b.m.o and b.m.c Feb 17 22:35:23 koupsa: sorry, is 'boot on console mode init3' part of my grub args? Feb 17 22:35:42 at the end of the kernel parameters in grub, put 3 Feb 17 22:35:57 with a space before it Feb 17 22:36:04 right Feb 17 22:36:18 ok, w/o the 3, i ended up being able to reach some screwed up console Feb 17 22:36:47 but i think it keeps switching to a broken x console? Feb 17 22:37:10 if you have the parameters right, it shouldn't Feb 17 22:37:13 it looks like it's trying to respawn x11 and failing miserably Feb 17 22:37:24 you might have to alt+f2 to a different console Feb 17 22:37:28 auke: was more in degree of helping to steer discussion in a saner way :), not seeking public praise Feb 17 22:37:49 it's more likely the KMS framebuffer wasn't cleared as it was expecting to hand over to X Feb 17 22:37:57 bbl sleep Feb 17 22:38:00 timeless: donno what you need, but boot init=/bin/bash might be an option :) Feb 17 22:38:11 or sh, i donno what moblin ships Feb 17 22:38:37 ok, now i can't get a grub console Feb 17 22:38:38 timeless, what are you using, moblin 2.1 final image ? Feb 17 22:38:44 yes Feb 17 22:38:49 I'll give it a shot here Feb 17 22:39:13 GeneralAntilles: send an e-mail to me and arjan, we'll take it from there? Feb 17 22:39:45 the livecd doesn't use grub seems Feb 17 22:39:55 syslinux Feb 17 22:40:11 ok, i'm in, the 3 seems to have helped Feb 17 22:40:12 Tab should still get your the boot menu though Feb 17 22:40:21 s/menu/kernel cmd line :) Feb 17 22:40:21 that gives you the console Feb 17 22:40:29 auke, OK. Feb 17 22:40:45 you can change the default boot to be run level 3 for now if you like, edit the /etc/inittab file Feb 17 22:40:51 aha Feb 17 22:41:02 that skips gdm I guess Feb 17 22:41:10 there is no GDM Feb 17 22:41:30 uxlauncher starts X and the sessions Feb 17 22:41:36 auke, the auke-jan.h.kok at intel dot com one? Feb 17 22:41:38 ok, so now i should try startx? as root or user? Feb 17 22:41:57 GeneralAntilles: yep. I don't use my linux.intel.com one much Feb 17 22:42:03 (user fails) Feb 17 22:42:05 * timeless_mbp tries as root Feb 17 22:42:08 it might give you an idea as to why it's not working Feb 17 22:42:13 while we're at it, what's the root password? :) Feb 17 22:42:25 moblin iirc Feb 17 22:42:27 ah, moblin Feb 17 22:42:28 ok, this is shiny Feb 17 22:42:41 sudo startx Feb 17 22:42:48 timeless_mbp: success ? Feb 17 22:42:55 yeah Feb 17 22:42:56 so um Feb 17 22:42:58 cool Feb 17 22:43:01 root not a real user in moblin Feb 17 22:43:01 why doesn't the normal thing work? Feb 17 22:43:16 "moblin is not in the sudoers file", fwiw. Feb 17 22:43:16 koupsa: eIDontGiveADmn Feb 17 22:43:38 javispedro: when you do an actual install the user you created does get added Feb 17 22:44:29 so well, I had same problem as timeless, but startx as root helped. vmware server here. Feb 17 22:44:42 cool Feb 17 22:44:42 javispedro: yeah, startx as root worked Feb 17 22:45:23 clearly using software rendering... Feb 17 22:45:35 timeless: does vbox gl stuff work? is the ui snappy? Feb 17 22:45:37 interesting, I don't recall having to do that Feb 17 22:45:45 no Feb 17 22:45:50 ah, well. Feb 17 22:45:50 slow as a slow thing Feb 17 22:45:54 javispedro: sorry, i wouldn't know Feb 17 22:46:02 the system is responsive enough Feb 17 22:46:03 the VM's don't have a DRI2 driver Feb 17 22:46:10 it's usable as a test bed Feb 17 22:46:18 I can quickly put vmgl in there, Feb 17 22:46:23 but vmgl is "only" gl 1.1 Feb 17 22:46:42 slaine_: glad to see that the moblin.org home page doesn't fit in my screen Feb 17 22:46:46 that's awesome. Feb 17 22:46:52 heh Feb 17 22:47:16 it crashed on me already :) Feb 17 22:47:31 hey, i tried three distros and managed to crash the ui on all three without even dropping on a terminal Feb 17 22:47:33 I think by default it runs at 720x400 Feb 17 22:47:50 you have to install the guest tools Feb 17 22:47:56 slaine_: i have 800x600x32 Feb 17 22:48:14 wow Feb 17 22:48:28 it detected my new media, showed me the task switcher, and opened the file browser Feb 17 22:48:41 looks cool Feb 17 22:48:47 and it has *two* "The media contains software. [Open Autorun Prompt]" rows Feb 17 22:48:48 min screen size it expects is 1024x600 Feb 17 22:48:50 a pity that's über slow here, due to the software rendering Feb 17 22:48:51 what idiot would add two? Feb 17 22:49:18 if there's two autoruns on the media i guess Feb 17 22:49:19 * slaine_ coughs politely Feb 17 22:49:35 pwnguin: how does one manage that? Feb 17 22:50:05 more likely, vbox installed one already and you added a second one Feb 17 22:50:18 s/installed/inserted Feb 17 22:50:23 there's an autorun.inf and an autorun.sh Feb 17 22:50:31 there ya go Feb 17 22:50:33 thats how Feb 17 22:50:49 im guessing the .inf is windows Feb 17 22:51:02 yeah, same iso for all platforms Feb 17 22:52:06 slaine_: btw, I just checked and confirmed vbox uses the xengl approach. It shouldn't even need DRI but some patches to libGL. Feb 17 22:53:28 the guest additions fail to install Feb 17 22:53:46 it just says 'Detected unsupported x86 environment.' Feb 17 22:53:47 oh shit, forgot, you need some dev tools installed Feb 17 22:53:52 * javispedro ponders wheter spending a few minutes trying vmgl on the VM... Feb 17 22:54:21 ok, this is just because it's actually 32bit not 64bit Feb 17 22:54:25 i picked the wrong critter Feb 17 22:54:39 how do i get linux kernel headers? Feb 17 22:54:39 Go to the Applications panel open the terminal Feb 17 22:54:46 yeah, i'm there Feb 17 22:54:48 and then do Feb 17 22:54:59 sudo yum install gcc make kernel-netbook-devel Feb 17 22:57:29 * mikeleib waves to tripzero Feb 17 22:58:12 someone should convert these instructions into a wiki page Feb 17 22:58:58 mikeleib, hi Feb 17 22:59:44 * timeless_mbp wonders how to 'shutdown' Feb 17 23:00:19 Software Update Viewer is running as a privileged user Feb 17 23:00:34 Package management applications are security sensitive. Feb 17 23:00:44 Running graphical applications as a privileged user should Feb 17 23:00:49 be avoided for security reasons. Feb 17 23:00:55 [Cancel] [Continue Anyway] Feb 17 23:00:58 * timeless_mbp doesn't get it Feb 17 23:03:14 lol Feb 17 23:03:15 timeless_mbp: the design philosophy behind the UI was that it would turn your netbook into an appliance Feb 17 23:03:56 So there's no reboot/shutdown buttons on the UI, you use the hardware buttons Feb 17 23:04:25 slaine_: i meant in the terminal Feb 17 23:04:32 'shutdown' didn't work Feb 17 23:04:35 halt? Feb 17 23:04:49 (and after, ntfs gstreamer...) Feb 17 23:05:14 koupsa: ? Feb 17 23:05:48 timeless_mbp: try Feb 17 23:05:54 moblin cant use ntfs Feb 17 23:05:55 sudo shutdown -h now Feb 17 23:06:02 slaine_: i was su Feb 17 23:06:06 no mp3 divx etc Feb 17 23:06:07 and shutdown -h now did not work Feb 17 23:06:30 does it use upstart? Feb 17 23:06:50 either way dunno about the shutdown event's name. Feb 17 23:06:53 koupsa: try my gstreamer rpms, http://slaine.org/_slaine/Software.html Feb 17 23:07:01 timeless_mbp: works for me Feb 17 23:07:02 i've hard powered off mine already :) Feb 17 23:07:19 (was booting from cd either way so) Feb 17 23:07:31 thanks slaine_ i have alreeady install gsteamer ntfs ;) Feb 17 23:07:34 slaine_: ok, for now, i'm trying to find the find the update manager Feb 17 23:07:40 i think it's running in the background Feb 17 23:07:45 but i can't find it Feb 17 23:07:54 there's a daemon Feb 17 23:08:18 koupsa: grand Feb 17 23:08:35 timeless_mbp: did you launch the app ? Feb 17 23:08:44 slaine_: it came to me! Feb 17 23:08:48 but i found it by searching Feb 17 23:08:54 k Feb 17 23:08:55 how do i find out when i can safely reboot? Feb 17 23:09:01 if this stupid thing is running in the background Feb 17 23:09:16 click on the Zones panel Feb 17 23:09:28 if the application is running, it'll have a window in a zone Feb 17 23:09:34 or alt+tab Feb 17 23:09:57 ruby example Feb 17 23:10:23 hmm, I should type my headings into my editor... Feb 17 23:10:26 it says 'no zones yet' Feb 17 23:10:49 no app windows then Feb 17 23:10:54 safe to reboot Feb 17 23:11:04 * slaine_ runs and hides Feb 17 23:12:03 [root@timeless-desktop timeless]# shutdown -h now Feb 17 23:12:10 bash: shutdown: command not found Feb 17 23:12:25 bummer Feb 17 23:12:30 halt? Feb 17 23:12:47 /sbin isn't in path Feb 17 23:13:07 * timeless_mbp su -'s Feb 17 23:13:10 something that's common in ... redhat based distros! Feb 17 23:13:12 * javispedro hides Feb 17 23:14:16 hrm. "unknown error" on trying to restore communication and calendar from backup after flashing :< Feb 17 23:14:17 its safer when you know which binaries you are invoking as root by explicit pathing Feb 17 23:14:35 nidO: what platform? Feb 17 23:14:42 Fedora has had sbin in the patch since F11 iirc Feb 17 23:15:38 pr1.1.1, flash has gone fine, device booted, loaded backups, selected the backup to restore, went ok, device restarted, loaded to desktop, gave an error about communication and calendar restore Feb 17 23:15:41 haven't touched fedora since core 5 or similar Feb 17 23:15:45 and then carried on with the app redownload fine Feb 17 23:15:54 maemo possible on virtualbox ? Feb 17 23:16:02 koupsa: Mer, sure Feb 17 23:16:06 much much much much easier Feb 17 23:16:08 often wondered that myself Feb 17 23:16:16 ok Feb 17 23:16:24 http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Installation Feb 17 23:16:43 thanks i RTFM Feb 17 23:16:46 actually Feb 17 23:16:50 that's the wrong page Feb 17 23:17:17 http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Releases/0.16#Installation_guide Feb 17 23:17:19 use that Feb 17 23:17:38 you want mer-x86-generic-image-v0.16.vmdk.zip Feb 17 23:17:53 ok Feb 17 23:19:10 this is something I haven't noticed before either, correct me if it's obvious though Feb 17 23:19:43 loaded a backup to restore, device went to offline mode, did it's restore, rebooted in offline mode (didnt ask for pin), finished the restore, then went back online still without asking for my sim pin Feb 17 23:20:23 OK, I've setup access for most of the relevant #meego-* channels. Feb 17 23:20:27 nidO: is this moblin or maemo? Feb 17 23:20:39 maemo, pr1.1.1 Feb 17 23:21:28 I do of course only now realise I have the wrong channel focused, stupid lame client :< Feb 17 23:22:23 only one channel on futur? Feb 17 23:22:26 ok, so how the heck do i startx on this stupid system? Feb 17 23:22:38 if i startx as root, the apps get pissed that they're running as root Feb 17 23:22:49 like in the 90's Feb 17 23:22:49 but if i don't startx as root, it doesn't start x ! :o Feb 17 23:23:37 gdm Feb 17 23:23:53 -bash: gdm: command not found Feb 17 23:25:35 sorry sudo yum install gdm Feb 17 23:25:48 i don't want some random graphical windowing system Feb 17 23:25:51 i want moblin's Feb 17 23:26:08 lol good luck Feb 17 23:26:10 :) Feb 17 23:26:40 on atom ? or only on vm? Feb 17 23:26:45 vm Feb 17 23:27:20 with no "startx" i have no solution Feb 17 23:28:53 moblin is not usefull in vm. too slow and bug in panel Feb 17 23:29:19 i'm just trying to see how the strings play out Feb 17 23:33:49 after reading some of the Maemo Qt, I'm even starting to think that HIM doesn't suck! how's that even possible. Feb 17 23:34:55 javispedro... what is HIM? Feb 17 23:35:14 Gotta love ZDNet Feb 17 23:35:15 http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5863 Feb 17 23:35:24 simula, Hildon Input Method Feb 17 23:35:27 hildon-input-manager (aka maemo's onscreen keyboard and related techs) Feb 17 23:35:30 er.. method :) Feb 17 23:35:48 :) Feb 17 23:37:10 GeneralAntilles: lol, he failed to find meego's actual home page? Feb 17 23:37:18 ZDnet. just because someone pays us. Feb 17 23:37:27 That was entertaining General Feb 17 23:37:28 GeneralAntilles: nice article Feb 17 23:37:55 auke, do they? Feb 17 23:38:21 auke, I'd always figured more: ZDNet: I have a spleen and it needs venting Feb 17 23:38:22 no, that would be their slogan though, I think Feb 17 23:38:51 Man I hate bloggers. Feb 17 23:38:59 timeless_mbp, did you catch rcadden's bow-out? Feb 17 23:39:06 no? Feb 17 23:39:08 I always smell a whiff of redmond when I visit zdnet's website Feb 17 23:39:32 heh Feb 17 23:39:42 url? Feb 17 23:39:53 timeless, it's a classic: http://www.symbian-guru.com/2010/02/with-meego-i-go/ Feb 17 23:39:59 WTF? Feb 17 23:40:08 relol Feb 17 23:40:13 I guess he deleted it Feb 17 23:40:15 http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mJha4A56JGoJ:www.maemo-guru.com/2010/02/with-meego-i-go/+with+meego+i+go&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Feb 17 23:40:17 Well, cached. Feb 17 23:40:37 he already deleted the entire maemo-guru domain Feb 17 23:40:39 that was fast Feb 17 23:40:48 s/domain/site contents/ Feb 17 23:41:28 what guru giveth, guru taketh. Feb 17 23:42:02 interesting Feb 17 23:42:10 sorry, i don't think i've ever read him Feb 17 23:42:17 timeless_mbp, just as well. Feb 17 23:42:35 * timeless_mbp still can't figure out how to get moblin2.1 to boot safely Feb 17 23:42:39 "merge Maemo and Moblin to create MeeGo, yet *another* identity for this awkward project they've had, and revealed plans to put it on everything from tablets to phones to TVs." Feb 17 23:42:57 I'm guessing it's more along the lines of not wanting to rule anything out Feb 17 23:43:06 hey, I would pay to see MeeGo on my tv set. Feb 17 23:43:09 'you could do ANYTHNIG with it, if you buy intel hardware!' Feb 17 23:43:20 javispedro, indeed. Feb 17 23:43:25 javispedro: i've already met tv's w/ linux on them Feb 17 23:43:29 that's hardly new Feb 17 23:43:35 He was bitching about the change of name meaning he'd have to purchase a new domain and instead said "fuck it". Feb 17 23:43:36 timeless: I've said it once here already.. Feb 17 23:43:40 i saw one in boston a couple of years ago Feb 17 23:43:41 * GeneralAntilles suspects this MeeGo thing will be less beneficial for bug #630 than it first appears. Feb 17 23:43:54 timeless: my tv set is tivoized. has wi-fi hardware but not the kernel driver. Feb 17 23:43:57 timeless_mbp, there's Linux in TiVo, too. Feb 17 23:43:59 Who cares? Feb 17 23:44:07 Doesn't help unless you can do cool things with it. Feb 17 23:44:07 * timeless_mbp shrugs Feb 17 23:44:13 personally Feb 17 23:44:17 all i want is stuff that works Feb 17 23:44:20 my set top box runs windows ce =( Feb 17 23:44:23 the DVR i have here does *not* work Feb 17 23:44:39 it makes the junk i get from certain other hardware vendors seem amazing Feb 17 23:44:45 timeless_mbp, my definition of "works" includes being able to do things like installing additional codecs and new software. Feb 17 23:44:49 and well... that stuff is still junk Feb 17 23:45:02 but when they have the 800€ and the 1600€ models, and the only difference is that the latter has some gplv2 kernel module installed Feb 17 23:45:07 well. Feb 17 23:45:12 why bother. Feb 17 23:45:38 Um, why is the meego-community list bouncing? Feb 17 23:46:02 they already switched it to smeegol GA.. you didn't get the memo? :D Feb 17 23:46:03 * FatalSaint hides Feb 17 23:46:34 Precious! Feb 17 23:47:22 Unknown username "system" in message bus configuration file Feb 17 23:47:25 that sounds nice Feb 17 23:47:48 rc.vboxaddservice: line 0: daemon: command not found Feb 17 23:47:50 that's helpful Feb 17 23:48:57 anyone know what 'daemon' is and where i can get it for moblin? Feb 17 23:50:04 screw that Feb 17 23:50:08 tell me where line zero is Feb 17 23:50:18 :) Feb 17 23:50:29 sounds like someone's not expecting upstart there. Feb 17 23:50:53 daemon $binary Feb 17 23:51:19 sorry 260 Feb 17 23:51:34 javispedro: currently moblin does not use upstart Feb 17 23:52:01 arjan: ah, but it doesn't use the usual rc scripts either? Feb 17 23:52:07 arjan: so what magic do i need to get 'daemon' so that my vbox is failing? Feb 17 23:52:16 s/is/stops/ Feb 17 23:52:37 hmm, what happened there me wonders Feb 17 23:52:59 slaine_: also, how do i update my system from the commandline? Feb 17 23:53:01 javispedro: we support the normal init.d scripts. Feb 17 23:53:05 i don't like this ui i don't understand Feb 17 23:53:08 javispedro: we just do not use many of them ourselves Feb 17 23:53:18 sudo yum upgrade Feb 17 23:53:31 No Packages marked for Update Feb 17 23:53:38 totally unhelpful Feb 17 23:53:45 and Really Screwy caPitaliZation Feb 17 23:54:01 is your network routing working ? Feb 17 23:54:20 or did you already apply the upgrades via the PackageKit GUI Feb 17 23:54:27 yes networking is working Feb 17 23:56:06 Does yum repolist return sane settings ? Feb 17 23:56:22 s/settings/results Feb 17 23:56:43 http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/moblin/rc.vboxadd-service Feb 17 23:57:12 if [ "$system" = "redhat" ]; then Feb 17 23:57:12 . /etc/init.d/functions Feb 17 23:57:20 that piece (esp the sourcing) needs to be done for moblin too Feb 17 23:59:57 the witching hour approacheth, time I was off to my laba, Oíche mhaith. Feb 18 00:00:01 do you want the redhat or suse version? Feb 18 00:00:18 talk about a disaster of an init.d script Feb 18 00:00:41 the non-working lfs version! ;) Feb 18 00:02:06 ok, now it says it started :o Feb 18 00:02:17 * timeless_mbp will file a bug against vbox in a minute Feb 18 00:03:15 heh, since you said it was fast before installing the tools now I am left to wonder if the patched libGL works. Feb 18 00:03:39 http://serverfault.com/questions/3331/how-do-i-find-out-what-version-of-linux-is-running/3369#3369 Feb 18 00:03:39 well, i now have a bigger screen Feb 18 00:07:07 ok, the gui claims no updates available Feb 18 00:07:13 i guess that means it updated everything already Feb 18 00:09:35 nice Feb 18 00:09:44 moblin2.1 shipped w/ ff3.5.3 Feb 18 00:09:47 the update gave me 3.5.5 Feb 18 00:09:51 too bad current is um Feb 18 00:10:18 ubuntu has 3.5.7 Feb 18 00:10:28 there's a 3.5.8 Feb 18 00:10:33 so ubuntu isn't current Feb 18 00:10:40 probably Feb 18 00:10:56 ok Feb 18 00:11:04 3.5.8 dropped today Feb 18 00:11:07 so? Feb 18 00:11:23 so i probably need to run update instead of checking my existing ff about box Feb 18 00:11:46 3.5.5 is so old that it isn't even on the releases.mozilla.org server :) Feb 18 00:12:04 yep. *my* ubuntu is out of date Feb 18 00:12:13 Get:1 http://security.ubuntu.com karmic-security/main firefox-3.5-branding 3.5.8+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.10.1 Feb 18 00:13:11 nice Feb 18 00:13:18 the preferences dialog doesn't fit in moblin Feb 18 00:14:07 why not firefox 3.6 ? Feb 18 00:14:36 koupsa: because it's unfair to slam a linux distribution for not upgrading to a newer feature line Feb 18 00:14:46 it's perfectly reasonable to slam it for not keeping current on security updates Feb 18 00:15:19 (in case you're curious, maemo5 won't be remotely current until the next real update comes out) Feb 18 00:16:16 * arjan got a new maemo5 today :) Feb 18 00:16:26 (my n900 told me to update) Feb 18 00:16:28 http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/moblin/moblin2.1-firefox3.5.5-preferences-do-not-fit.png Feb 18 00:16:30 is alway security update... get the source so you have not to wait to x-cmunity Feb 18 00:17:35 arjan, little itty bitty update. Feb 18 00:17:47 I did not notice anything different Feb 18 00:17:54 so far Feb 18 00:17:57 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.1.1 Feb 18 00:18:10 can we with maemo install tar.gz like another distro? have we the necessary dev ? (sorry poor english) Feb 18 00:18:15 arjan: i think the transisitions are a bit smoother, but otherwise, nothing substiantial Feb 18 00:18:23 Somebody still needs to go digging to figure out what they did to apt to prevent it from installing Ovi stuff. Feb 18 00:18:41 koupsa: not really with the default fw. I suggest getting the SDK, or creating a chroot to install all the dev stuff. Feb 18 00:19:19 koupsa, yes, tar is available. Feb 18 00:19:22 GeneralAntilles: iirc apt doesn't support user+password auth or something silly Feb 18 00:19:27 koupsa, most people tend to package as .deb, though. Feb 18 00:19:29 GeneralAntilles: busybox tar Feb 18 00:19:43 timeless_mbp, yeah, but it forks for this purpose. :P Feb 18 00:19:43 if you want real tar, you have to install it :) Feb 18 00:19:54 star? Feb 18 00:19:57 ah, tarball containing a binary? Feb 18 00:20:01 I thought source. Feb 18 00:20:37 * arjan kinda doesn't see compiling, say, openoffice on the n900 as an idea that's viable Feb 18 00:20:48 heh Feb 18 00:20:53 arjan: you don't have 10 years of time to wait? Feb 18 00:20:54 aww Feb 18 00:20:54 (heck it's not really viable on a dual nehalem monster) Feb 18 00:20:56 arjan, Maemo users do all sorts of insane shit. Feb 18 00:21:05 how about a beowolf cluster of n900's? Feb 18 00:21:12 then you can distcc build openoffice :) Feb 18 00:21:19 over 3G Feb 18 00:21:22 arjan: maybe if we did some network memory and distcc and ccache Feb 18 00:21:23 n.b. i don't think beowolf support is available Feb 18 00:21:26 icecream is more better than distcc Feb 18 00:21:35 arjan: bluetooth pan (not supported) :) Feb 18 00:21:36 wonder how many n900's pack in a cubic meter Feb 18 00:21:42 arjan: there are gentoo people that _built openoffice_ on the n810 Feb 18 00:21:54 arjan: w/ or w/o power cabling? Feb 18 00:21:55 using distcc since the n810 doesn't have enough swap ;) Feb 18 00:22:06 javispedro: I understand "am student, got drunk, did something stupid" as concept ;) Feb 18 00:22:15 arjan: maybe our friends at nokia can build such a thing :) Feb 18 00:22:16 GeneralAntilles: Does it matter what Nokia did to stop atp from installing Ovi stuff? It's all getting dumped anyways. Feb 18 00:22:19 timeless_mbp yes and not only n900... N900 and atom and x86 Feb 18 00:22:42 zerojay, I'm just vaguely interested in seeing how the Ovi folks are going to embarrass themselves this time. Feb 18 00:22:52 why not? if all connected Feb 18 00:23:00 I wonder when I can connect my n900 to that nokia windows app Feb 18 00:23:08 arjan: eh? Feb 18 00:23:09 * arjan got that from his old phone and it sucked, but it was useful Feb 18 00:23:12 pc suite or ovi suite? Feb 18 00:23:23 I used to have pc suite, but it told me to migrate to ovi suite Feb 18 00:23:30 it lied :) Feb 18 00:23:40 I guess so Feb 18 00:23:41 ovi suite doesn't support as many products Feb 18 00:23:54 it also uses 100Mb of memory Feb 18 00:23:58 but that's another story Feb 18 00:24:03 yeah, its footprint is impressive Feb 18 00:24:18 so is its usefulness (or lack thereof) Feb 18 00:24:40 * timeless_mbp also likes the explorability factor when no compatible devices are available [=none] Feb 18 00:24:45 for 100Mb of memory you;d expect something mega cool Feb 18 00:25:15 such as emacs.. zing! Feb 18 00:26:09 is iptable on maemo? Feb 18 00:26:20 well, excel included a wolf3d like game iirc Feb 18 00:26:41 koupsa: you could ask #maemo Feb 18 00:27:00 * timeless_mbp should really look to see if #moblin is helpful Feb 18 00:27:12 * arjan wonders how to run powertop on his n900 Feb 18 00:27:27 right Feb 18 00:27:58 arjan, should be included out of the box. Feb 18 00:28:04 arjan, not sure if it's on user's path. Feb 18 00:28:15 * GeneralAntilles isn't actually sure that it wasn't dropped somewhere along the line. Feb 18 00:28:15 so roughly Feb 18 00:28:26 moblin feels like OLPC done wrong Feb 18 00:28:29 also, sometimes I have to run it twice (powertop) Feb 18 00:28:42 could someone explain to me how moblin is better than olpc? :) Feb 18 00:28:44 the first one it crashes/quits Feb 18 00:30:27 arjan, if it's not installed, it should be available from http://maemo.org/development/tools/ Feb 18 00:30:29 timeless_mbp: different audience for sure Feb 18 00:30:40 lmao Feb 18 00:30:41 GeneralAntilles: I'll give it a shot.. Feb 18 00:30:43 I guess the moved it to, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 Feb 18 00:30:59 GeneralAntilles: yeah, my old internal links to maemo.org/dev* all died Feb 18 00:31:01 * timeless_mbp grumbles Feb 18 00:31:14 are people not familiar w/ the concept of leaving redirects? Feb 18 00:31:26 timeless_mbp, yeah, that's what we did when we killed the old Midgard wiki. Feb 18 00:31:34 timeless_mbp, file a bug and make sure dneary is CCed? Feb 18 00:31:39 Or prod him directly. Feb 18 00:32:06 hrm, ok, maybe, from work, tomrrow Feb 18 00:32:48 powertop came preinstalled, but at one point it vanished from all firmware images. There are people on the forums that tarred up the executable though... The preinstalled powertop doesn't have the fancy UI of the lesswatts.org one, but it shows much more info than the lesswatts.org powertop Feb 18 00:33:11 it was on pr 1.0 and 1.0.1 Feb 18 00:33:14 (at least) Feb 18 00:33:36 there was a reason it was removed :( Feb 18 00:33:59 I don't know if I want to know it... Feb 18 00:34:05 what was it Feb 18 00:34:38 it doesn't get removed with firmware upgrade, but the firmware *images* Hif you reflash) don't have it Feb 18 00:34:49 you don't want to know Feb 18 00:34:58 ShadowJK: starting from pr 1.1. I never ota'd :) Feb 18 00:35:08 pr 1.0 has it for sure. Feb 18 00:35:39 Some devices that came with 1.0 did not have it Feb 18 00:35:50 hm... Feb 18 00:36:22 either way it's not something I'd want filling up rootfs. Feb 18 00:36:28 unless required. Feb 18 00:36:42 yeah, realistically it should just come from extras Feb 18 00:36:47 that'd make everyone happier Feb 18 00:36:47 it's tiny and tremendously useful Feb 18 00:38:54 the lesswatts.org one doesn't show the power states of the omap3 parts for example Feb 18 00:39:14 powerdomains I guess the word is :) Feb 18 00:41:32 I wish they'd forgotten to remove the Energy Profiler too Feb 18 00:41:34 :) Feb 18 00:50:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo "It is hosted by the Linux Foundation on a domain name originally registered in 1999" lol Feb 18 00:50:36 a long time in the planning :) Feb 18 00:50:49 or a quick lookup at the "trademark drawer". Feb 18 00:50:54 when in times of need. Feb 18 00:51:47 im imaging a scenario Feb 18 00:52:02 where nokia wants to call the merged project 'maemo' and intel wants to keep it 'moblin' Feb 18 00:52:20 maeblin! Feb 18 00:52:39 pwnguin: i don't think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Feb 18 00:52:54 some frustrated linux foundation employee threatens to use their worst case scenario name, 'meego', which they have sitting around Feb 18 00:53:13 i haven't decided who called the bluff but the end result is meego.com Feb 18 00:53:37 heh :) Feb 18 00:54:06 meh Feb 18 00:54:57 can you imagine lawyers and trademark people of two companies in one room Feb 18 00:55:03 needing a name that all can agree with? Feb 18 00:55:16 might as well wait for the polar ice to melt, that'll be done quicker Feb 18 00:55:32 yes. Though the scene has a BOFH and some bricks too. Feb 18 00:55:42 I'm sure Feb 18 00:55:44 arjan: i'll drive my car more and the ice will melt faster Feb 18 00:56:18 my personal experience; the more lawyers in the room, the more the outcome looks like hospital food Feb 18 00:56:33 (no office to any lawyers here; I know some very good ones, and as long as they're alone, they're great ;-) Feb 18 00:56:48 offence even Feb 18 00:57:43 everyone knows that a meego is an alien being who came to earth from the planet marmazon to bestow on humans technology that we cannot yet comprehend Feb 18 00:58:09 i thought it was a robot toy that corrects grammar Feb 18 00:58:37 pwnguin, that's what they "want" you to believe Feb 18 00:58:43 no no, it's an alien fungus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migo Feb 18 00:59:12 * arjan sends some black helicopters to trip0 Feb 18 00:59:35 but i kinda actually like the name... it's simple and catchy Feb 18 00:59:39 * arjan heads home... Feb 18 00:59:45 gnight arjan Feb 18 01:00:00 'copters are coming, time to go home as well... Feb 18 01:02:56 http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/6229 ticket for vbox filed Feb 18 01:20:12 can anyone confirm this bug: If you have a meego.com account, and are subscribed to the mailing lists (at least one), go to your "My Account" page, and tell me if it says "Not subscribed" for each mailing list Feb 18 01:21:25 crashanddie_: meego-community Subscribe for digest (receive emails in a bundle) Feb 18 01:21:47 (which is true) Feb 18 01:23:48 Unfortunately meego-community@meego.com is undeliverable. Feb 18 01:30:19 good night.... Feb 18 02:36:32 i'm disapointed http://notionink.in/ didn't wait for MeeGo and chose Android Feb 18 02:46:08 would you wait on an unknown? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 18 02:59:57 2010