**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 18 02:59:57 2010 Feb 18 03:10:13 hi everybody Feb 18 03:15:02 hey Feb 18 03:15:39 Is this the (alpha) source of the project? http://repo.meego.com/ Feb 18 03:19:56 bzhb: I dont know, I read the press release when that got out but havent had time to dig more into meego Feb 18 03:20:48 interesting to note that all rpms are for x86 though, nothing for ARM Feb 18 03:24:34 I guess it is because they imported it from moblin Feb 18 03:24:51 the ARM version should follow Feb 18 03:25:01 prolly Feb 18 03:25:07 hopefully Feb 18 03:26:22 I came here from the maemo side, so yes, hopefully. :) Feb 18 03:41:01 * microlith rages at comcas^wXfinity Feb 18 03:41:15 microlith, there's something we can all get behind. Feb 18 03:41:32 I just keep mine on a low burn 24/7. Feb 18 03:41:39 ditto Feb 18 03:41:45 but the past two days have been bizzare Feb 18 03:41:56 my IP changed the other day, first time in more than a year Feb 18 03:42:09 but the connection has been unstable as all get out, which is rare Feb 18 03:42:21 microlith, clearly it's time to go trolling again, then. Feb 18 03:42:47 clearly Feb 18 03:49:32 does meego have an official blog? Feb 18 03:49:47 forums* Feb 18 03:59:20 melik, no. Feb 18 03:59:30 melik, but we may do something with talk.maemo.org Feb 18 03:59:35 There are mailing lists. Feb 18 04:06:38 * rwhitby wonders what http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ contains ... Feb 18 04:07:02 heyo Feb 18 04:07:21 moo Texrat Feb 18 04:07:28 moo Feb 18 04:07:43 wow so lively here Feb 18 04:07:51 it grew and kept on growing Feb 18 04:08:01 meego devs, how will you turn src.rpm's into .rpm's ;) Feb 18 04:08:12 cross-compiled using what? Feb 18 04:10:02 mikestaszel: OBS is one way Feb 18 04:10:05 Yo, Texrat. Feb 18 04:10:14 yo ho Feb 18 04:10:37 OBS? Feb 18 04:10:53 that just rings the openSuse Build System bell in my head :P Feb 18 04:11:00 did i guess right? Feb 18 04:11:03 mikestaszel: open build service, one instance is build.opensuse.org but there'll probably be a build.meego.com Feb 18 04:11:20 woo, guessed it...thanks Feb 18 04:12:24 Texrat: so are you going to help bringing the maemo.org feel and goals into meego? :) Feb 18 04:12:47 Stskeeps, what are you, a plant? :P Feb 18 04:12:57 GeneralAntilles: 5am Feb 18 04:12:58 :P Feb 18 04:13:03 Stskeeps not by myself!!! Feb 18 04:13:10 Texrat: of course not :) Feb 18 04:13:11 "Here's twenty bucks to ask me favorable questions." Feb 18 04:13:30 GeneralAntilles: i did not know of meego until the announcement, so no :P Feb 18 04:13:37 lol Feb 18 04:13:53 Stskeeps, Texrat could've paid you at any point in the last 3 days. :P Feb 18 04:13:59 i would have made a briliant plant however :P Feb 18 04:14:01 with what? Feb 18 04:14:06 my good looks? Feb 18 04:14:18 Texrat, um . . . favors? Of some sort. . . . Feb 18 04:14:21 ew Feb 18 04:14:31 I just spent all I have on a new microphone Feb 18 04:14:33 a beauty Feb 18 04:15:01 Gonna become a reporter? Feb 18 04:15:13 mainly for music, but also podcasting Feb 18 04:15:43 What do you play, anyway? Feb 18 04:16:11 guitar, half ass. I mostly compose electronically Feb 18 04:16:45 Mmm, I can get behind that. Feb 18 04:17:12 * Texrat covers ass Feb 18 04:17:52 * GeneralAntilles is listening to Brian Williams on Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me. Feb 18 04:18:42 * Stskeeps headdesks over all the 'officially supported' meego on n900 threads Feb 18 04:19:47 * Texrat facepalms Feb 18 04:20:58 Stskeeps, I think we should build a new MeeGo theme for Talk in secret and just execute a DNS change sometime next week. Feb 18 04:21:11 heh Feb 18 04:21:43 if there's a active and stable platform created by meego (with proper production QA etc) and a open attitude from nokia to have those apps and drivers updated across their nokia devices due to cross-platform-ness, who cares if it's not officially supported.. Feb 18 04:22:05 and ability to generate those images where it's hard to tell the difference between a official and non-official.. Feb 18 04:24:32 conspiracy talk! Feb 18 04:24:41 GA finally succumbed to it Feb 18 04:24:54 They found me out! Feb 18 04:24:56 * GeneralAntilles runs. Feb 18 04:25:10 like a girl Feb 18 04:25:29 flail your arms less Feb 18 04:25:37 ffs Feb 18 04:26:09 Texrat, do you see, now, why I love geneven so much, by the way? :P Feb 18 04:26:24 because he's full of surprises? Feb 18 04:26:33 dude made me shit my pants the other day Feb 18 04:26:36 Something like that. . . . Feb 18 04:26:40 "some company hire Texrat" Feb 18 04:26:46 fucker's tryign to kill me Feb 18 04:26:47 He must've been taking his meds for that one. Feb 18 04:27:26 I'd give geneven's left nut to find the right team podcasting solution Feb 18 04:28:19 Con crashanddie into making you something Feb 18 04:28:19 Texrat: i think if the n900 discussions continue i'm going to ask for a simple statement of: Will Nokia be helping MeeGo community in order to have hardware support for it's open devices .. and would they use the cross-platform ability of MeeGo to help give their devices longer life, by publishing new/updated Nokia apps on top of most if not all MeeGo on Nokia devices Feb 18 04:28:27 I hear the mwkn backend would've cost 80k. Feb 18 04:28:58 good point Stskeeps Feb 18 04:29:17 Texrat: they don't get to weasel out of that ability if it is truely cross platform framework :) Feb 18 04:29:18 GeneralAntilles what I hear is that Pandora will run MeeGo Feb 18 04:29:25 * Texrat runs Feb 18 04:29:59 Stskeeps let's collab and build our own open source hardware for meeGo Feb 18 04:30:05 I have some 770 parts... Feb 18 04:30:18 an old VCR... Feb 18 04:30:26 Texrat: i think it's better to just ask the chinese and tell them to build something off a reference board Feb 18 04:30:29 and some PC parts Feb 18 04:30:29 I guess we'll see you guys back sometime in 2015? :P Feb 18 04:30:30 :P Feb 18 04:30:43 oh way to get behind the dream GA Feb 18 04:30:53 Texrat: and -still- we'd be shipping before the pandora Feb 18 04:30:54 :P Feb 18 04:31:01 ROFL! Feb 18 04:31:11 the eternal 2 months Feb 18 04:31:33 When is fanoush paying up, anyway? Feb 18 04:31:37 lol Feb 18 04:32:39 Nokia rushed N900 just to screw fanoush Feb 18 04:32:45 * Stskeeps goes back to bed Feb 18 04:32:56 * Texrat pokes Stskeeps Feb 18 04:33:06 Haha Feb 18 04:33:11 I wish fanoush had more time. Feb 18 04:33:23 We need to find a way to get him hired as a hackmaster for maemo.org Feb 18 04:33:29 Er MeeGo.com (shudder) Feb 18 04:33:30 +1 Feb 18 04:33:36 +100 Feb 18 04:33:43 gawd that name Feb 18 04:33:55 Texrat, did you catch that tombstone picture? Feb 18 04:34:02 yes, good stuff Feb 18 04:34:08 Brought a tear to my eye. Feb 18 04:34:15 I heard angels Feb 18 04:34:38 screw it though, silly name or not, I'm gunnign for a job :D Feb 18 04:34:43 gunning too Feb 18 04:34:56 tired of babysitting software migrations Feb 18 04:35:13 Gonna end up working for some Chinese outfit that's going to end up shipping a complete, proprietary UX on top. :P Feb 18 04:35:30 Who do I have to fluff to get a meeGo.com work email address? Feb 18 04:35:36 ack Feb 18 04:36:23 sooner or later my boss is gonna catch on... Feb 18 04:36:35 "I have to go to Amsterdam... Santa Clara... helsinki..." Feb 18 04:36:59 "no, it won't be work-related" Feb 18 04:37:02 "yet" Feb 18 04:37:41 Quim's gonna have to hire me just to keep me close and quiet Feb 18 04:38:07 you'd think the usb falling out fiasco would have done the trick Feb 18 04:38:19 "shit, get that nut back in here and shut him up!" Feb 18 04:47:08 friggin pc shut down Feb 18 04:47:12 Texrat, they know it wont work. Feb 18 04:47:18 So they figure there's no point wasting the money. :P Feb 18 04:47:32 yay n900 Feb 18 04:47:33 Texrat, by the way, you know you can run XChat on the N900, right? :P Feb 18 04:47:45 feh Feb 18 04:47:52 Slap an irssi proxy on your home machine. Feb 18 04:50:44 ga you gotta admit my juggling meego dude was cool Feb 18 04:50:45 Texrat: how could Pandora run MeeGo? Pandora is already shipping. Feb 18 04:51:00 Texrat, I liked the "I surrender!" one better. Feb 18 04:51:02 uhsf it was a joke Feb 18 04:51:25 i would like pandora to merge also Feb 18 04:52:08 yes we can be meegodora Feb 18 04:52:20 and samsung to forget about bada and go MeeGo Feb 18 04:52:20 or meegopee Feb 18 04:52:31 first product will be called explora Feb 18 04:52:42 and switch back the name to Maemo Feb 18 04:52:57 meegodora sounds like something that would fight godzilla Feb 18 04:53:08 so it shall be done Feb 18 04:53:37 meegodora would kick gojira's fat ass Feb 18 04:54:14 that really all sounds foolish Feb 18 04:54:37 uhsf no fun on your planet? Feb 18 04:54:47 maemo, moblin, meego, bada Feb 18 04:54:58 ah Feb 18 04:55:44 could be worse. could be yoogo Feb 18 04:56:41 all sounds like these web2.0 startups that tried to be bought by google Feb 18 04:57:51 trying too hard to find the short letters sequence that'll please the sheep teenage crowd Feb 18 04:58:17 meegle! moogle Feb 18 04:59:17 uhsf: have you actually tried moblin? it is more of a social networking appliance than a real distro, and aimed directly at teenagers and twenty-somethings Feb 18 04:59:36 so the name fits perfectly Feb 18 05:00:11 Texrat, that's not worse. Feb 18 05:00:32 Moogle! Feb 18 05:00:35 I can get behind that one. Feb 18 05:01:18 they already named it after an obscure character from a japanese RPG once, might as well do it again... Feb 18 05:01:21 Boogle! Feb 18 05:01:24 ali1234 are you taking lessons from guber99? :p Feb 18 05:01:39 Texrat: who? Feb 18 05:02:56 anyway, i;m not saying there is anything wrong with making a distro designed around social networking Feb 18 05:03:03 nevermind ali1234-- a tmo character Feb 18 05:03:28 but any such thing is going to be used by teenagers and young people because that is who is using social networking Feb 18 07:09:58 morning guys and girls Feb 18 07:10:18 Morning Feb 18 07:10:35 hey Stskeeps Feb 18 07:17:33 moin Feb 18 07:17:45 geez, 356 nicks :) Feb 18 07:17:54 indeed Feb 18 07:18:17 channel about to explode, then implode, then become a tiny black hole Feb 18 07:18:22 then we're dead Feb 18 07:18:31 #maemo didn't explode yet Feb 18 07:18:31 : Feb 18 07:18:33 P Feb 18 07:21:53 so any news overnight? Feb 18 07:37:13 morning david Feb 18 08:11:40 hi Feb 18 08:15:35 Hey Carsten Feb 18 08:21:52 http://tinyurl.com/intelokia Feb 18 08:21:54 :) Feb 18 08:24:16 hmm... interesting Feb 18 08:31:16 yup Feb 18 08:31:23 but, you could kinda see it coming Feb 18 08:31:27 I guess Feb 18 08:31:31 the Atom thing Feb 18 08:31:59 hrm Feb 18 08:33:05 I wonder what else may come to light in the next few weeks Feb 18 08:33:54 I think MeeGo is a very interesting move, but after all the negative response when they went from Diablo to Fremantle, I'd have to think there are things that they haven't mentioned yet Feb 18 08:34:12 apart from backports and such, it's a fair bit of upheaval Feb 18 08:34:26 I think it's probably good in the long run, but I hope everything's been thought out Feb 18 08:34:28 ... Feb 18 08:35:32 yup :) Feb 18 08:36:04 it's sad to see all the uninformed freaking out and trolling, though Feb 18 08:36:23 people should stop freaking out and help shape things instead Feb 18 08:36:24 :P Feb 18 08:36:30 * jaem agrees Feb 18 08:36:58 ...and we are really could use all the help :-) Feb 18 08:37:11 I just hope the ARM port won't be too much a second citizen... Feb 18 08:37:26 bzhb: i think people will fight to the teeth to it not becoming so Feb 18 08:37:43 no need to fight really... just contribute Feb 18 08:37:44 Stskeeps, agreed, and it looks like people will have much more of an opportunity to do so Feb 18 08:38:42 if someone wants xyz, they should just contribute it -- so if a hardware vendor or someone is interested in seeing a specific thing supported; they should just contribute it Feb 18 08:39:32 :nod: Feb 18 08:39:37 people are just afraid of this openness Feb 18 08:40:10 imad: going to assume you're not imad sousou? Feb 18 08:40:21 actually I am Feb 18 08:40:26 oh, cool Feb 18 08:40:56 thanks Stskeeps Feb 18 08:40:59 nice to meet you, if so :) i'm carsten munk, maemo.org distmaster - previously involved in OS development facilitation for the community Feb 18 08:41:14 ahh, good to meet you Feb 18 08:41:18 morning all Feb 18 08:41:28 and did the Mer project, where we tried to do many of the same things MeeGo has as goal Feb 18 08:41:43 so am naturally excited about this project :) Feb 18 08:41:46 yeah I looked at what you guys did in Mer -- very cool Feb 18 08:41:50 has anyone here had problems w/ their meego account? Feb 18 08:41:52 lots to learn from Mer Feb 18 08:42:11 timeless_mbp: still at it ? Feb 18 08:42:17 imad, oh, *that's* why your nick rang a bell Feb 18 08:42:18 how's your vbox install ? Feb 18 08:42:20 nice to see you on here Feb 18 08:42:22 slaine_: um Feb 18 08:42:45 thanks jaem -- been really hectic the past few days sorting things Feb 18 08:43:03 imad, and a good signal to send to hang out here as well, being one of the top guys Feb 18 08:43:04 i had it running at 1024x whatever Feb 18 08:43:30 imad, no doubt. As I said, I'm really impressed with the direction this is heading overall... I just hope people dont' continue to be jerks about it Feb 18 08:43:37 of-course -- Feb 18 08:43:48 slaine_: i was hoping to run the gui so i was 'user' instead of 'root' Feb 18 08:43:50 but i failed Feb 18 08:44:03 anyway, currently my pain is that the wiki doesn't like me Feb 18 08:44:07 So still needing to do the startx stuff ? Feb 18 08:44:24 i think once we sort out the initial code stuff and release it in the next two or three weeks... thing swill start looking different than now Feb 18 08:44:37 slaine_: i seem to Feb 18 08:44:52 what's the "proper" way to do it? i tried /usr/bin/moblin-dm or something like that Feb 18 08:44:57 and it just said 'killed' Feb 18 08:45:04 imad: i think what people are wondering as well is things like scheduling of TSG meetings as well - we had a regular maemo.org sprint meeting as well so Feb 18 08:45:17 it's every two weeks, but when does it start and where ;) Feb 18 08:45:46 definetly will start it next week... i'll make sure to announce these here Feb 18 08:45:52 timeless_mbp: I didn't look any further into it after you got passed the virtual terminal part. I'll see if I can have a poke around later today Feb 18 08:45:54 thanks Feb 18 08:46:05 imad, most of the ranting I've seen was uninformed - did they even *read* the FAQs?! Feb 18 08:46:08 slaine_: ok Feb 18 08:46:09 i hope people would cut us some slack the firt few things as we get things going Feb 18 08:46:20 slaine_: anyway, i have vbox guest additions working and x11 works Feb 18 08:46:28 but i still don't have the proper launch sequence Feb 18 08:46:36 imad: i can definately not recommend trying to read talk.maemo.org then :) Feb 18 08:46:42 yeah, that's what I'll look at later, see if we can get that moving Feb 18 08:46:49 i read the logs -- too bad I wasnt here for the fun :-) Feb 18 08:46:59 was stuck in Barcelona Feb 18 08:47:00 imad, it's the Internet - people are stupid Feb 18 08:47:09 or rather, the people who are stupid can all get together Feb 18 08:47:26 I'm pretty sure it will all blow over in time Feb 18 08:47:29 typical post being "Hi, I don't know anything about this, but here's my 2cents worth" Feb 18 08:47:39 most of the people I've seen making noise are newbies anyway Feb 18 08:47:47 slaine_, more like $2 Feb 18 08:47:50 hi imad Feb 18 08:48:01 lol, yes true, they didn't hold back Feb 18 08:48:01 jaem: the challenge is channeling that energy into something productive. Feb 18 08:48:04 i know - it was kind of funny that a lot of these guys never contributed a line of code to maemo or moblin Feb 18 08:48:12 Stskeeps, anything in particular? Feb 18 08:48:22 hi lbt Feb 18 08:48:33 jaem: turning their arguments on them and asking to help out :) Feb 18 08:48:47 imad, how much of Maemo is actually /in/ MeeGo? The marketing-spiel didn't mention much more than Qt Feb 18 08:49:00 if you can tell me, that is Feb 18 08:49:18 jaem: i have difficulties describing what Maemo actually is :P Feb 18 08:49:20 a lot of maemo will be in MeeGo -- not just QT Feb 18 08:49:31 the Maemo gues did a lot of terrific work Feb 18 08:49:35 guys Feb 18 08:49:36 I take it you're seeing the mailing list discussions too? Especially the 'upstream' and collaboration area? Feb 18 08:49:58 imad, that's good. it was a bit vague, and some people seemed to think that Maemo was just being scrapped, with a bits tacked onto Moblin Feb 18 08:50:06 I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure what the deal was Feb 18 08:50:56 the problem is that a lot this will get sorted out publicly -- we've been careful not to make all the decisions upfront for the obvious openness reasons... so we really started with few key things that we had to have Feb 18 08:51:09 I think those of us who don't care about a file format *do* care about the "MeeGo is just a toy OS for phones - why would you need a full OS on there?" kinda thinking Feb 18 08:51:15 things that would get us to bring up the base OS, and a reasonable application development env Feb 18 08:51:25 makes sense Feb 18 08:52:06 personally, I'm waiting for more information to be released before making any major judgements, but I think the potential is great Feb 18 08:52:18 and as for Openness, it sounds like a big move Feb 18 08:53:00 when you guys say that the base system is going to be completely Open Source, I would presume some drivers still won't be? Or are you planning on leaning on the manufacturers a bit? Feb 18 08:53:02 yeah... it will come together... we chose to do it openly and that makes it double hard... Feb 18 08:53:09 no doubt, but it's admirable Feb 18 08:53:12 * timeless_mbp sighs Feb 18 08:53:16 jaem: yeah.. waiting for source and participating in discussions Feb 18 08:53:38 kernel drivers will be all open -- at least we are making this a requirement for now Feb 18 08:53:55 \o/ Feb 18 08:54:07 imad: what about gl drivers, e.g. for the chip on nokia netbooks ? Feb 18 08:54:09 imad: I'd be interested on your thoughts on Moblin having no upstream distro? Not reusing all that inter-package integration QA work... Feb 18 08:54:14 there will be some userland driver (probably one) with one of the gfx vendors who we are unable to push over yet Feb 18 08:54:32 userland is not as limiting as kernel drivers though (see our VSC proposal) :P Feb 18 08:55:13 the upstream distro was a really hard decision to make a year or so ago Feb 18 08:55:37 we started with an upstream... but we started diverging given what we really need to do for devices. Feb 18 08:55:38 lbt: having no upstream distro is sometimes better. you have faster adoption pace from real upstreams like gnome, kde, ... Feb 18 08:55:55 apparently most of the trolls haven't figured out the "no upstream" part Feb 18 08:55:59 or they just don't care, being trolls Feb 18 08:56:00 kad, I see that - but I worry about the lack of OSS ecosystem Feb 18 08:56:07 so ath that point, we decided it would be far cleaner to be our own upstream Feb 18 08:56:10 lbt: like what ? Feb 18 08:56:14 Morning, all Feb 18 08:56:19 morning Feb 18 08:56:20 Jaffa, hi Feb 18 08:56:23 like the 20K packages in Debian Feb 18 08:56:31 or similar in other distros Feb 18 08:56:36 as Jaffa said Feb 18 08:56:42 lbt: amount doesn't matter if quality is not good :) Feb 18 08:56:59 when a dev wants a library and imports the dependencies Feb 18 08:57:01 dont get me wrong... all these distros are great -- Debian, Fedora, OpenSuSE... but all target different usage models Feb 18 08:57:09 lbt: you can check with many active users, how many of those 20k is really used. Feb 18 08:57:11 it makes life hard Feb 18 08:57:22 we wanted something that is specific to devices ranging from netbooks to handsets to TVs, etc... Feb 18 08:57:22 kad agreed - and that's part of the approach Feb 18 08:57:39 but having them to call upon is valuable Feb 18 08:57:52 imad: different usage models? Feb 18 08:58:13 lbt: I yesterday had a long discussin with one of geeks about Debian and Ubuntu - and his main complain about ubuntu was about packages which comes from Debian and how badly it works :) Feb 18 08:58:28 I mean... we wanted something that is specific to the needs of what we are trying to do Feb 18 08:58:30 lbt: 'mobile usage' Feb 18 08:58:37 Don't talk to me about TV's Feb 18 08:58:47 :-) Feb 18 08:58:52 slaine_: why ? :) Feb 18 08:58:53 imad, was RPM a specific design choice, or just a carry-over from Mobline? Feb 18 08:58:53 bloody Philips and their broken SerialXpress protocol Feb 18 08:59:00 Moblin* Feb 18 08:59:20 jaem: general consensus is that it is because there's a full toolchain (builder, image builder, qa, etc) already set up around it Feb 18 08:59:25 and we don't need to reinvent it Feb 18 08:59:35 Stskeeps, where? Feb 18 08:59:35 I do agree with the mobile usage of course - but I think a lot of this is about libraries vs ui Feb 18 08:59:49 there was many factors of how we selected the key things -- meaning distro infrastrcuture, packaging toolkit Feb 18 08:59:52 jaem: well, it is lost in all the noise, but this was the response here Feb 18 08:59:55 I've just found out that Get responses are not atomic and are infact overwritten by the TV if the user happens to be interacting with the remote at the same time Feb 18 08:59:57 grrrrr Feb 18 09:00:11 slaine_, yikes Feb 18 09:00:20 broken by design Feb 18 09:00:23 and imad, having a relationship with an upstream may still mean repackaging Feb 18 09:00:26 the packaging itself wasn;t really that important -- what was important the infrastrcuture that we could start with Feb 18 09:00:37 but syncing on versions Feb 18 09:01:13 and making the autopackaging use the 'upstream distro' and not the pristine source Feb 18 09:01:19 lbt: syncing on versions slowdowns development. look at ubuntu and debian. Feb 18 09:01:23 well the problem with packaging vs upstream is that they are not consistent anyway... so if you look at the RPM distros... none of them are compatible with each other... they just HAPPEN to use a specific packaging format -- similar with the DEB based Feb 18 09:01:38 lbt, i saw the current repo set the other day.. there's still a lot of room for policy changes and fixes to help things Feb 18 09:01:41 imad, Do you have any contact details I could use how to become an OSV of Moblin/MeeGo ? Feb 18 09:01:58 I've been trying for a very, very long time and gotten nowhere Feb 18 09:02:01 Stskeeps: I haven't seen the repo set Feb 18 09:02:16 lbt: sec Feb 18 09:02:39 what do you mean...becoming an OSV? Feb 18 09:02:46 imad: indeed - but 2 upstreams are more consistent than 2000 original tarballs Feb 18 09:02:56 http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ Feb 18 09:03:51 lbt: it's easier to track 2000 original tarballs than sometimes fight with community of upstream distro for minor need changes Feb 18 09:04:18 if you fight then submit the change upstream to original Feb 18 09:04:24 that problem you face anyway Feb 18 09:04:43 if original source won't accept you maintain a patch Feb 18 09:04:46 same as now Feb 18 09:05:07 however, much of the time you'd offload the patch maint to upstream distro Feb 18 09:05:12 we're about to make the initial source tree available, just waiting mostly on things that we need to do including making the full build infrastrcuture also openlll so once that is all there... anyone can take it and create a commercial distro out of it Feb 18 09:06:00 lbt: in case of dpkg or apt for example, debian is the upsream. there is no upper way to escalate. Feb 18 09:06:09 lbt: and this is one of examples. Feb 18 09:06:32 re: dpkg/apt decision is made : np Feb 18 09:06:52 the discussion is just to not shoot ourselves too much in the foot :) Feb 18 09:06:56 yes Feb 18 09:07:01 lbt: well, it was not about re-open holly war, but just to provide example :) Feb 18 09:07:28 (kad, same arg for any app developed by a distro : zypper, yum etc) Feb 18 09:07:32 We don't need to marry an upstream though Feb 18 09:07:36 just stalk them ;) Feb 18 09:07:49 we can be the creepy distro :D Feb 18 09:08:04 at some point, we need to get to one packaging system in Linux -- maybe we can call it DPM Feb 18 09:08:13 Stskeeps, how many levels of "shot" are there in the foot-gun you're using, then? Feb 18 09:08:26 imad: I was hoping that we could use an open OBS as an initial touch point Feb 18 09:08:27 jaem: kill off everything in packaging not relevant to mobile usage. Feb 18 09:08:30 lbt, what? You don't already stalk people through commit logs? XD Feb 18 09:08:32 for multi distros Feb 18 09:08:37 jaem: heh Feb 18 09:08:51 lbt: I agree that zypper is nowdays somehow comparable to dpkg. but in case yum - Sith is alsmost independed from distro, as there are many contributing distro/customers Feb 18 09:08:55 http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000253.html , jaem (and others willing to read my "don't shoot yourself in the foot" distro) Feb 18 09:09:02 er, suggestion Feb 18 09:09:10 kad: too specific for ignorant old me Feb 18 09:09:17 lbt: :) Feb 18 09:09:38 Stskeeps, I skimmed it, but it makes sense Feb 18 09:09:52 what /is/ the build system that's being used? Feb 18 09:09:52 og guys -- have to go to sleep now -- just arrived back from Europe... will talk to you tomorrow Feb 18 09:09:56 imad: I think Stskeeps has developed what I was trying to get at there Feb 18 09:10:02 imad, cheers, thanks Feb 18 09:10:05 good to see you here imad - thanks Feb 18 09:10:17 cheers@! Feb 18 09:11:08 good morning Feb 18 09:11:18 moin SR Feb 18 09:11:30 moin david Feb 18 09:11:37 morn SR, nice to see you here too :) Feb 18 09:11:43 jaem, obs (and no, it's not opened yet) Feb 18 09:11:50 moin carsten, nice to meet you Feb 18 09:12:54 so kad how do we grow the ecosystem around MeeGo in the most efficient manner? Feb 18 09:13:32 ScriptRipper: and very happy to see OBS used in all this Feb 18 09:13:44 +1 Feb 18 09:15:19 i am collecting new features we might need inside BS to make it more convinient Feb 18 09:19:48 i read that an SDK is highly on the prio list Feb 18 09:20:13 lbt: what exactly you mean by ecosystem ? external development ? contributions to distro ? something else ? Feb 18 09:20:14 at the moment, webpages show only QT creator Feb 18 09:20:59 ScriptRipper: what do you mean by SDK in case of distros like Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu/etc ? Feb 18 09:21:03 ScriptRipper: OBS? Feb 18 09:21:14 kad: I feel that the repo that makes up 'core' Moblin is tiny by comparison to most distros Feb 18 09:21:30 its that way by design though Feb 18 09:21:30 OBS Feb 18 09:21:47 and for a developer used to normal distros looking to pull in a reusable library... Feb 18 09:22:00 that's a problem Feb 18 09:22:06 This isn't a normal distro though Feb 18 09:22:14 slaine_: no, it's that way by economic neccesity Feb 18 09:22:34 lbt: this core of the distro is enough to build most usable software. if somebody want something more, available in other distro - it's not hard to became maintainer and help distro :) Feb 18 09:22:46 What we need is an extra's type repo Feb 18 09:22:48 i mean: a way to run stuff inside a virtual machine like OBS does and connecting to tools Feb 18 09:22:51 sec - phone - kad, will reply Feb 18 09:22:56 outside of the virtual machine Feb 18 09:24:43 ScriptRipper: I'm maybe not representative developer, but I'd prefer to build in high power build system and then install from repo packages rather than VMs Feb 18 09:24:53 kad: Err, it *is* hard if high-end app developers have been enticed to the platform and they find there's no easy way of communicating with an LDAP server or posting to Twitter. They may not even *know* that a different repo's package can be repackaged, let alone how to do it. Having a dedicated team of people who respond to app author's saying "I want to post a message to Twitter from Python, how do I do it?" and they respond "We've just created python-twitt Feb 18 09:25:07 lbt: my battery running out, so maybe rejoin irc in ~1h. Feb 18 09:25:37 kad: OBS uses a virtual machine *to build* Feb 18 09:25:39 ScriptRipper: VMs aren't a very enticing option for attracting developers. People expect to be able to do cross-platform, cross-compiling build and debug without having to install a VM. Feb 18 09:26:01 ScriptRipper: not always, it's fine with chroots. Feb 18 09:26:12 yes Feb 18 09:26:23 Jaffa, well, the Maemo SDK VM is convenient - if I could set up SBox and friends natively on my Arch box, I'd be happy Feb 18 09:26:27 MeeGo app developers WILL NOT solely be running Linux. Feb 18 09:26:31 but the VM makes it work nicely Feb 18 09:26:33 I know. I wrote parts of OBS Feb 18 09:26:37 Jaffa, I take your point, though Feb 18 09:26:54 I am just loudly thinking about Feb 18 09:26:59 Jaffa: But Moblin people do not know that yet ;) Feb 18 09:27:13 how to better instrument the OBS virtual machines / chroot Feb 18 09:27:13 jaem: It's really not convenient. It's bloated, it's another OS to maintain, integration into the tools and editors that a developers like on their platform of choice is poor. Feb 18 09:27:14 ScriptRipper, if you think more quietly, your computer won't hear you :O Feb 18 09:27:26 Jaffa, I meant for setup, as compared to the current Maemo alternative Feb 18 09:27:30 jaem: luckily, you wouldn't need scratchbox anymore :) Feb 18 09:27:32 I agree that it's far from ideal Feb 18 09:27:48 jaem: Will, yes - if your only alternative is Scratchbox on a Linux box having a VM is better ;-) Feb 18 09:28:06 kad, I've never developed with OBS... what's the workflow when testing locally? Feb 18 09:28:24 Something *like* MADDE (i.e. with its requirements and goals) is essential to attracting a wide range of developers. Feb 18 09:28:26 that's something I wondered too Feb 18 09:28:35 git checkout, make an rpm ????? Feb 18 09:28:36 Jaffa: I can use my TextMate, osc client, rpm on my mac os :) just using build on servers, not locally. Feb 18 09:28:53 you can use the local command line client to run a build also on the local machine Feb 18 09:29:18 it then sets up chroot/kvm/XEN on the local machine Feb 18 09:29:27 instead of the server Feb 18 09:29:36 jaem: again, I might be not representative developer in a scence. my habbits is to make patch, update spec, commit to obs, wait it build, install package from repo on target hw. Feb 18 09:30:12 Jaffa: what is MADDE ? Feb 18 09:30:14 kad: and if I want to do dev on the train? Or abroad? Or anywhere without a data connection? ;-) Feb 18 09:30:24 ScriptRipper: http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE Feb 18 09:30:36 * kad running out of battery on laptop. let's speak a bit later. Feb 18 09:31:02 kad, sure Feb 18 09:31:41 Jaffa: in train, for supplying patch is enough to have even costy gprs :). without data connection - use vmware with simple linux install and chroots. no problem with that. Feb 18 09:31:51 ScriptRipper: That's cool. Is it *theoretically* possible for the osc to set up a VM for the building on Windows? Feb 18 09:32:24 yes it is Feb 18 09:32:34 kad: Sorry, but you're wrong. MeeGo has to entice developers who are also looking at iPhone, webOS and Android - and the development tools are something that Maemo's taken 5 years to even get *close* to getting right. Feb 18 09:32:38 morning Feb 18 09:33:04 but OBS currently does not support windows package install Feb 18 09:33:09 kad: Saying "you have to develop in a mindset of a 1970s timeshare mainframe" isn't going to cut it. Feb 18 09:33:19 ScriptRipper: Or, presumably, OS X? Feb 18 09:33:29 ScriptRipper: Although that might be easier as a next step. Feb 18 09:33:45 so you would need some prepackaged .rpm or .deb packages for this target OS Feb 18 09:34:09 same for Solaris or OS X Feb 18 09:34:20 or other BSD like OSes Feb 18 09:34:46 I think there is a .deb based solaris version, that should work anyway then Feb 18 09:35:13 pkg_add! Feb 18 09:35:44 we had more than once thought about adding other package formats to OBS also Feb 18 09:36:20 like Solaris pkg format or OpenEmbedded and the like Feb 18 09:36:31 Sorry for a really stupid question but what is OBS? Feb 18 09:36:48 RST38h: a builder system or a really clever way to construct chroots. Feb 18 09:36:58 Or, to make things simpler, can I simply write a Makefile and type "make" to compile applicaiton under meego? Feb 18 09:37:11 Sts: so OBS ~= Scratchbox? Feb 18 09:37:15 OBS: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service Feb 18 09:37:40 RST38h: sortof, except saner. the base user mode emulation just works. and then you can drop in x86 packages on top to cross-compile fast. Feb 18 09:37:41 and: OBS can do things like scratchbox can do for cross building Feb 18 09:37:42 Yes, I have seen this link yesterday but could not figure out what it means for a normal app developer Feb 18 09:37:46 RST38h: it's comparable to native building. Feb 18 09:38:13 Stskeeps: Ah, ok Feb 18 09:39:38 Hmm is there a problem with the MeeGo lists? Feb 18 09:41:47 X-Fade: Yes, they are not viewable on the web =) Feb 18 09:42:01 lists.meego.com? :P Feb 18 09:42:11 RST38h: Well, they are. But don't update anymore. Feb 18 09:42:40 ah cool Feb 18 09:42:45 Archives don't update and mail doesn't seem to get through. Feb 18 09:43:09 Stskeeps: That openSUSE page about OBS seems to imply that it is kinda autobuilder, i.e. you cannot build locally with it. Is that true? Feb 18 09:45:18 you can build also locally Feb 18 09:45:34 its both: an autobuilder and local build Feb 18 09:46:23 oh we're discussing meego repositories I'm guessing. Haven't been following. OBS seems pretty cool actually. Feb 18 09:46:40 RST38h: you can build with it locally too Feb 18 09:48:29 hi all, i have question regarding MeeGo and python. Will it be possible to run my python+QT applicatoin on MeeGo? Feb 18 09:48:37 there seem to have been many discussions about .deb vs .rpm the last days Feb 18 09:48:46 feedcrunch, well, it's Open Source, so yes Feb 18 09:48:46 OBS can do both Feb 18 09:48:58 even in one package source Feb 18 09:49:09 if you package it correctly Feb 18 09:49:09 feedcrunch, as to whether it will work out of the box, you'd have to ask someone else, but I'd expect so Feb 18 09:49:10 Well, it only has to do one that will be used by the OS Feb 18 09:49:23 Nokia is doing PySide themselves Feb 18 09:49:36 villemv, very nice! Feb 18 09:49:37 so it's slightly more than "community supported" Feb 18 09:51:01 the fact that it uses underlying "fully supported" Qt itself guarantees the native look as well Feb 18 09:51:02 jaem: tanks for the answer! Yes it would be possible, but i wonder if there will be a "official" repository by the community. Like Extras in maemo where you can install all the python-dependencies and so forth. Feb 18 09:51:15 mornin meego Feb 18 09:51:16 \o Feb 18 09:51:27 feedcrunch: don't worry about it, of course there will be full python experience Feb 18 09:51:28 lcuk: Wooh! :) Feb 18 09:51:35 lcuk, 'sup Feb 18 09:51:53 villemv: hehe, thanks, now i feel a lot better, Back to programming! :) Feb 18 09:57:22 morning lcuk Feb 18 10:03:16 Just watched a video on the new LG phone. I'm a bit worried that they have their completely own UI :/ Feb 18 10:04:03 have the url to vid handy Hukka? Feb 18 10:04:12 Sorry, not anymore Feb 18 10:04:16 But it's trivial to google Feb 18 10:04:18 "meego phone" Feb 18 10:04:20 ya, Feb 18 10:04:31 It's basically the same UI they've got on the Arena and like devices... Feb 18 10:04:36 Exactly Feb 18 10:04:44 I also watched a bit on the S-class Feb 18 10:05:07 But what I'm wondering is that if the OS in that phone is actually OSS, or interchangable Feb 18 10:05:12 Will there be even Qt? Feb 18 10:05:34 hence the need for things like our proposed VSC Feb 18 10:05:38 It's LG, so it's likely locked so far down you can't get to it Feb 18 10:05:46 *nods* Indeed Feb 18 10:05:52 The meego arch images tell us about the split UI from Maemo and from Moblin, but nothing about the vendors actually ignoring both... Feb 18 10:06:22 LG had no prior linux phones? so I suppose it has to have at least moblin ui Feb 18 10:06:32 Since if that's whats going to happen, then it doesn't really matter at all how open Meego supposedly is Feb 18 10:07:05 MeeGo is open enough so that you can make a locked phone with it ;-) Feb 18 10:07:22 the LG GW990 seems really promising, but I have no previous experience with LG. Is it really possible that even though it runs meego, it's still locked down? Feb 18 10:07:37 Vendor social contract: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000036.html Feb 18 10:07:39 they could prevent installing new stuff on it Feb 18 10:07:47 Stskeeps: Yeah, I know Feb 18 10:07:55 but then, the "meego" marketing moniker would be BS Feb 18 10:07:58 for me that kind of defeats the purpose of running linux :) Feb 18 10:08:10 Hukka: There's 390 people in here, i'm sure one or two missed it ;) Feb 18 10:08:17 Stskeeps: But since the phone is already running the OS in the expos, there's no stopping them now Feb 18 10:08:38 why would they lock it down? Feb 18 10:08:40 operators? Feb 18 10:08:40 Hukka: of course Feb 18 10:08:54 villemv: Old school thinking Feb 18 10:09:04 "Of course we lock it, it's OURS" Feb 18 10:09:10 villemv, also, support. Less people screw up their devices. Feb 18 10:09:26 the same reasons everybody locks their devices down Feb 18 10:09:32 villemv, exactly. Feb 18 10:09:42 err Naranek_, exactly Feb 18 10:12:42 old linux devices were locked down because the native platform was immature, apple & google lock down because of app store & drm... Feb 18 10:12:50 why LG? Feb 18 10:12:51 jaem_away: ping me re local OBS workflow Feb 18 10:13:28 lbt: you might want to post the local OBS workflow somehere if you are making a novel out of it Feb 18 10:13:36 Jaffa: you need to learn more about OBS :) it's not quite what you think it is Feb 18 10:13:58 villemv: I'd like to : http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build is a good start Feb 18 10:21:46 uf... maemo-dev and meego-dev marked as read Feb 18 10:31:19 Can you point local OBS's build script at a directory of src rpms ? Feb 18 10:32:14 i do that with dscs often, but one at a time Feb 18 10:33:20 if you have that bunch of src rpm:s in your so-called home project of obs, you can do osc build for all of those Feb 18 10:35:22 Was trying to follow this, but didn't get very far Feb 18 10:35:23 http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively Feb 18 10:35:48 just complains that it can't find the spec files Feb 18 10:36:50 hi, is there something to install to use web browser on maemo 5 sdk (on maemo interface) Feb 18 10:37:13 when I click on web browser window, it happens nothing Feb 18 10:47:36 megabast, do you have the nokia binaries installed? Feb 18 10:49:05 lbt: re-reading up Feb 18 10:49:13 pan1nx: I installed openVMTools and guestadditions Feb 18 10:49:35 I am in the SDK virtual machine Feb 18 10:49:57 slaine_: try the Mer build link to get started with OBS Feb 18 10:50:50 lbt, I'll book mark it. I'm too swamped at the moment to lilkely get back to it shortly Feb 18 10:51:32 sure - it's an alternative tutorial that may help you debug build fails - uses deb but as you'd see that's not relevant Feb 18 10:51:51 yup, defo interested Feb 18 10:52:18 I've just got loads of meetings today and some new hardware I need to check out before I'd get time to look at it yet Feb 18 10:52:36 I literally spent 5 mins getting the build script installed and ran it Feb 18 10:57:35 megabast, wait, i check it on my sb Feb 18 11:03:02 meego is a ugly name Feb 18 11:03:23 well put :) Feb 18 11:03:32 we can all agree on that, but let's put something cool behind it? Feb 18 11:03:32 :P Feb 18 11:03:57 maybe Feb 18 11:04:51 it does have benefits Feb 18 11:05:28 even if it does make you think of it as jar jar binks' distro Feb 18 11:08:03 * kad is back Feb 18 11:09:09 wb Feb 18 11:09:37 hi all ! Feb 18 11:11:27 Jaffa: recapturing discussion. I said only about myself. I'm not a typical developer, and for me vim+chroot is more than enough. in worst scenario VM. Feb 18 11:11:43 Jaffa: in most circumstances, people will be developing x86 natively Feb 18 11:12:30 Jaffa: iPhone development requires Xcode, and thus, it simplifies a lot of thing - you have there cross gcc, custom binary representation format, so in that scenario you don't really care what you have as host OS. Feb 18 11:13:06 Jaffa: in case of Linux development, the biggest problem of crosscompiling is that many programs in their Makefiles using binaries which are just built. Feb 18 11:13:41 Jaffa: and this implies that you either need to be in VM, or natively do build on target HW, or use some crunches like SB. Feb 18 11:14:11 google isn't that cool name either, but see what they've accomplished :) Feb 18 11:14:14 kad: "many programs" ? Feb 18 11:15:00 robsta: sorry for spelling errors, english is not my native language :) Feb 18 11:15:17 kad: that's not what i mean, it's just not so many Feb 18 11:15:50 robsta: well, it's enough to make distro builder'ss life horrible. Feb 18 11:16:26 kad: maybe if you're building a general purpose distro who's goal is to have as many packages as possible Feb 18 11:17:34 robsta: I don't recall exact stats, but few years ago some of our collegues were trying to participate in cross-deb activities. It was quite a lot of packges which were requiring modifications for compile case where host arch != dest arch Feb 18 11:19:05 it's not a problem of deb, it's rather a problem of the userland software itself Feb 18 11:19:16 only few pieces can be properly cross compiled Feb 18 11:19:49 robsta: it might be some generic stuff (like, let me just pointing randomly somewhere without evidences, TeX) that you need to build your good app, but would require some tricks if you try to cross-compile it. Feb 18 11:19:51 thus leaving one in a situation of either extensively patching the rest or using sb or somesuch to circumvent the issue Feb 18 11:19:53 kad: most of the software stack in meego comes from freedesktop and other sane places and is already being used in embedded development, and cross compiled on a daily basis Feb 18 11:20:30 jumpula: agree, it's all about majority of currently available open source soft. Feb 18 11:20:55 robsta: I'm not argueing with that ;) Feb 18 11:21:13 kad: hopefully you also agree that the majority of available open source software is irrelevant to meego Feb 18 11:21:46 robsta: I'm just saying that there exceptions, and as Jussi mentioned above, you either spending time patching and workarrounding, or use something to emulate "native" build Feb 18 11:22:02 er, why not look at how insanely cool OBS does _cross? :P Feb 18 11:22:11 Hello community! I want a high level compiled language for Qt. Any suggestions? (GTK had Vala, Genie and Mono) Feb 18 11:22:49 Stskeeps: I've looked. :) but initial question was from Jaffa "how to use it on train with Windows laptop" Feb 18 11:24:04 robsta: well, I personaly use maybe 40% of packages available in Fedora repos. And for me content of MeeGo is more than enough. If I need something, I would be able to build it myself, as majority of build dependencies are already there. Feb 18 11:24:43 robsta: but there are people who's only criteria to be "cool distro" is to be able to say "my distro has 20k packages". Feb 18 11:25:11 kad: yes, there's an area in local building that needed improvement Feb 18 11:25:14 kad: but it isn't impossible. Feb 18 11:26:04 Stskeeps: under windows ? I've looked into code of "build", but kind of bit sceptical that it would work correctly on non-POSIX OS. Feb 18 11:26:27 kad: under windows is more difficult. it'd probably be MADDE like. Feb 18 11:27:01 windows situation right now is horrid anyway Feb 18 11:30:20 Stskeeps: I haven't looked at MADDE, so no opinions :) Feb 18 11:30:36 worth a try, kinda cool for what it does Feb 18 11:30:56 Stskeeps: "Windows situation [for Maemo development] right now is horrid anyway" Feb 18 11:31:05 except for MADDE, that is Feb 18 11:31:10 Stskeeps: Indeed. Feb 18 11:31:22 Stskeeps: by brief look, just on install page, I'd be very fear to install it on my systems. Feb 18 11:31:29 kad: it didn't kill mine. Feb 18 11:31:44 it's just very large. Feb 18 11:32:08 Stskeeps: well, it doesn't kill, but I fear of amount of unpredictable hacks that those installers do in the system during installation. Feb 18 11:32:24 kad: technically it's a mingw32 system Feb 18 11:32:59 Stskeeps: I'm speaking about darwin or linux installers. I don't have windows :) Feb 18 11:33:00 to start developmen i need opensuse or fedora? Feb 18 11:33:07 kad: ah Feb 18 11:34:28 niqt: any linux in my opinion. OBS client is available for major linux distros, and you can have chroot anywhere if needed. Feb 18 11:34:45 good Feb 18 11:35:35 to begin follw this link http://wiki.meego.com/Build_System? Feb 18 11:39:28 Hi all, just a very important question: MeeGo will use apt-get/.deb right? Feb 18 11:39:43 sorry to disappoint you - now, do you want the organisational reason? Feb 18 11:39:59 it uses rpm, but not sure about apt-get style setrup Feb 18 11:40:59 Stskeeps: wow. Why rpm? lsb? Feb 18 11:41:25 I'm going to attempt to fix some issues with the wiki logins - anyone working on it right now? shouldn't need a restart, but may invalidate existing cookies briefly Feb 18 11:41:55 J_P: actually, it's due to what tools in place. moblin brings to the table a build service (this can handle debs though, but keep listening), image builders, repositories, QA, and many other state of the art tools Feb 18 11:42:02 J_P: these are all centered around RPM. Feb 18 11:42:33 J_P: if .deb was to be adapted, all those tools would have to be rewritten to fit deb, as it isn't trivial to take debian.org tools, since they are, well, tied to debian.org Feb 18 11:43:14 also, the benefit of integration Feb 18 11:44:58 J_P: i am personall a .deb fan, but i think this is a compelling reason for the rpm choice. Feb 18 11:45:28 Stskeeps: I don't know if you are inside MeeGo team, If yes, please transmit my message: Not use .deb will be a bigger mistake. Feb 18 11:45:30 oh ffs, not this conversation again Feb 18 11:45:49 it's been like ground hog day, everyday this week Feb 18 11:45:53 J_P: i'm not, but i ask you to read my argumentation Feb 18 11:46:09 J_P: if you aren't willing to listen to other people's views, it isn't a very constructive conversation Feb 18 11:46:10 Something different then, did anyone manage to subscribe to the meego-community list? Feb 18 11:46:55 slaine_: like it or not we need to do this with all newcomers Feb 18 11:47:07 if you want to help then make a wiki page Feb 18 11:47:11 We should just point them to the FAQ at this stage though Feb 18 11:47:24 slaine_: i think once tools are up and running and people see how smooth things run, it will be more and more difficult for them to argue. Feb 18 11:47:25 Stskeeps: your argumentation is not valid. Because MeeGo will start a new modification is world for many years.. and is better a effort now (to use deb) than a not perfect system in the future Feb 18 11:47:27 ~whyrpm Feb 18 11:47:34 oh look - no infobot :) Feb 18 11:47:40 Avee: I subscribed, did not get any mails yet. Feb 18 11:47:48 J_P: how is it not valid? it's an organisational choice - a choice of tools? Feb 18 11:47:59 Hmm, the confirmation get rejected for me. Feb 18 11:48:01 i don't care about rpm vs deb, i care about what works. Feb 18 11:48:14 +1 ! Feb 18 11:48:20 meego-community-request@meego.com doesn't exist Feb 18 11:48:25 +1 ! Feb 18 11:48:26 AVee: i subscribed online Feb 18 11:48:29 AVee, yes, setup is broken. Feb 18 11:48:37 lbt, I send a memo to TimRiker. Feb 18 11:48:44 Stskeeps: not. Don't vorry. Not valid I told as not (for my opinion) as a world plataform best choice Feb 18 11:48:51 k, I'll try again later then. Feb 18 11:48:51 GeneralAntilles: ? Feb 18 11:48:53 J_P: okay, let me ask this another way Feb 18 11:49:00 lbt, infobot's owner. Feb 18 11:49:02 J_P: have you ever packaged anything for Maemo? Feb 18 11:49:04 :) Feb 18 11:49:23 J_P: have you tried the current process and tools in place? Feb 18 11:49:27 Stskeeps: yes... is dificult.. Feb 18 11:50:09 J_P: right. this is one of the choices that was pre-made for us. there's tools to make this immensely easier. moblin have tried those and use those. it is a integrated product, centered around rpm technology. Feb 18 11:50:21 J_P: you no longer have to deal with many of the insanities of maemo. Feb 18 11:50:34 and we don't need to spend several years getting maemo tools up to speed. Feb 18 11:50:55 can you see the organisational argument for that? Feb 18 11:50:58 which we dont have Feb 18 11:51:03 Stskeeps: yes, I understand you. But is possible alter that for have less dificult or (as you told) rewrite for deb Feb 18 11:51:12 at the expense that users would need to deal with rpm? Feb 18 11:51:17 J_P: yes, but this changeover will take several months. Feb 18 11:51:27 J_P: would you rather see android succeed as preferred mobile platform? Feb 18 11:51:53 Stskeeps: I thinking MeeGo in 4, 5, 10 years.. not Feb 18 11:51:56 1 or 2 Feb 18 11:52:09 Stskeeps: not, android NOT! Feb 18 11:52:12 J_P: MeeGo is supposed to be up, working, in few months. Feb 18 11:52:15 timing matters, and people need to realize that if you want a succesful project, you have to make compromises and choices. Feb 18 11:52:25 J_P: time matters Feb 18 11:52:29 And MeeGo wasn't designed from scratch Feb 18 11:52:33 Stskeeps: Months? Feb 18 11:52:46 MeeGo is Moblin, which has been around for a couple of years at this point Feb 18 11:52:52 zerojay: honestly i don't know timeline, but i can imagine it isn't a year. Feb 18 11:53:23 the meassage at release, was that devices should be out this year Feb 18 11:53:36 J_P: another issue is training the systems people. there's no alternative to moblin - and maemo isn't exactly the best base for things Feb 18 11:53:40 If you where starting from scratch then the deb vs rpm arguments would have some validity. But that's not the case here. The app stack from Maemo is moving to an alternative platform that is Moblin Feb 18 11:53:47 so 1/2 year until testing starts Feb 18 11:53:48 J_P: deb toolchain is not something easily hackable. Feb 18 11:54:11 slaine_: Aren't we starting from scratch? It sure feels like it since we're tossing out everything on the Maemo side pretty much. Feb 18 11:54:18 J_P: i have personally spent a year shoe-horning Maemo on top of Debian/Ubuntu. It isn't easy. Feb 18 11:54:27 So why, again, hasn't anybody just gone ahead and written up all of the technical, organizational and political arguments behind the choice on a wiki page somewhere so we can stop having this discussion every 30 minutes? :) Feb 18 11:54:37 GeneralAntilles: w00t tried and it drowned Feb 18 11:54:40 zerojay: the maemo guys have lost the most in this transition Feb 18 11:54:47 or gained Feb 18 11:54:51 depending on perspective Feb 18 11:54:53 true Feb 18 11:54:54 slaine_: That's an understatement. Feb 18 11:55:05 Stskeeps, not much can offset the loss of a good brand. :( Feb 18 11:55:14 Gained nothing but another year of scratching and clawing to get back to where we were. Feb 18 11:55:22 exactly Feb 18 11:55:31 zerojay: there was a need to reconstruct maemo and now we know what works. Feb 18 11:55:34 GeneralAntilles: writting them down would decrease amount of buzz going arround ;) Feb 18 11:55:44 And I think the PR exercise that is MeeGo has done you all a disservice. Feb 18 11:55:44 Stskeeps: What need? Feb 18 11:56:21 zerojay: if you spent enough time developing with maemo, you'd see the issues. platform stall and inability to spread to other devices easily. Feb 18 11:57:06 zerojay: i think all this scratching and clawing has put us in a position where we can actually try and run things. Feb 18 11:57:11 Stskeeps: most people here works with Debian/Ubuntu where environment is deb.. this will be better environment to Meego. Feb 18 11:57:37 J_P: it will work ! Feb 18 11:57:40 Stskeeps: most people on the works use .deb, why not use .deb too Feb 18 11:57:56 J_P: yes, deb is a brilliant format but a choice was made and i explained you why it is so Feb 18 11:58:02 Guest58941: yes, windows works too. with expetions, but works Feb 18 11:58:10 Stskeeps: No, it's put us in a position where apparently there was no confidence in Maemo and the community around it, so we get to sit on the sidelines. Feb 18 11:58:36 Why on earth does one archive format over another make such a difference to people. Feb 18 11:58:45 gah, I'm getting sucked in again Feb 18 11:58:47 zerojay: otoh, one of the 'dictators' was idling in here earlier and was discussing issues with people :P Feb 18 11:58:54 indeed, as a format deb and rpm are very similar Feb 18 11:59:07 J_P: the tools work on your distro of choice Feb 18 11:59:12 zerojay: this is the top of the project, instead of hiding away in offices Feb 18 11:59:13 what matter is the tools Feb 18 11:59:14 slaine_: I don't care about what archive format is used... what I care about is that everything we worked for and worked on has been tossed aside for this shit on a whim. Feb 18 11:59:26 GeneralAntilles: there is a wiki page Feb 18 11:59:33 slaine_: ppl are used to their toolss Feb 18 11:59:39 GeneralAntilles: it's a bit biased, but hold on and I'll try hunt it down Feb 18 11:59:49 J_P: regardless of wrap, most valuable thing is inside the box. packaging doesn't matter much if you app is crap. Feb 18 11:59:56 w00t, good! Now we just need a bot to spit it out every time a baiting phrase pops up. Feb 18 11:59:58 slaine_: because it is not only the archive format, it is a matter of source package architecture, tools and what not. however because of OBS dealing with rpm... wl you got your reasons. Feb 18 12:00:33 zerojay: i don't see it as being thrown away, i'm seeing it as them giving us what we actually want, in a shorter timeframe than what we would had to slowly and iterately gain. Feb 18 12:01:40 Stskeeps: Guest58941 kad "..deb is a brilliant format but a choice was made.." So if choice was made, we don't need more talk about this. Feb 18 12:01:41 Stskeeps: They didn't talk to anyone about "what we actually want". Feb 18 12:01:50 I was thinking just to help! Feb 18 12:02:08 J_P: i think the deb vs rpm thing has been noticed by everyone in charge Feb 18 12:02:20 zerojay: realistically - if people do want change, then it can still happen Feb 18 12:02:22 zerojay: well, with a dysfunctional council, it was hard to get any policies done. Feb 18 12:02:25 I haven't seen any statements to the contrary Feb 18 12:02:45 but I also haven't seen any consensus that change is necessary, nor stepping up and taking charge of it Feb 18 12:03:00 if the dev vs rpm thing is the only major bone of contention, then things are in pretty good shape ;) Feb 18 12:03:04 w00t, not with MeeGo 1.0 only a matter of weeks/months away Feb 18 12:03:15 zerojay: http://wiki.maemo.org/2010_Agenda Feb 18 12:03:19 basically - if someone does rewrite all tools -> fine Feb 18 12:03:21 slaine_: *shrug* Feb 18 12:03:27 slaine_: timeframes don't change things Feb 18 12:03:54 maybe http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging already gives enough of argumentation to forward askers to? Feb 18 12:03:57 It does to the people paying for the work to be done Feb 18 12:03:58 slaine_: if people wanted it changed, they'd want it changed - instead, as far as I can tell, most people decided to be vocal about it and suddenly look the other way when they were asked to organise doing something about it Feb 18 12:04:10 Stskeeps: Nothing on that page matters anymore. Feb 18 12:04:12 true Feb 18 12:04:16 but hey, no one stepped up Feb 18 12:04:22 Guest58941: exactly Feb 18 12:04:28 zerojay: because it is coming true. Feb 18 12:04:47 Stskeeps: you works on intel? Feb 18 12:04:48 No reason why an OE project couldn't be setup to take over Feb 18 12:04:56 slaine_: OE? Feb 18 12:04:56 J_P: no, i don't Feb 18 12:05:00 Open Embedded Feb 18 12:05:16 Stskeeps: You must be in different places than I am because I'm not seeing it. Feb 18 12:05:17 slaine_: ah, right - well, if there is an interest in it, I can only consider it a positive thing that it happens Feb 18 12:05:18 as far as I recall help has been offered initiate obs supporting deb, no? Feb 18 12:06:03 Thats the point we're both making I think. There's a lot of belly aching over the changes but no affirmative action Feb 18 12:06:11 flightplan: there has been some activity, yes, but I don't think there has been a lot of it, and not a lot of proactive activity on it (i.e. "what needs to change to use debs") Feb 18 12:06:35 zerojay: release soon and often - entire base system will be publically developed. one place to track feedback: public bug tracker on meego.com, co-production of documentation: seems to happening, community localisation: l10n is already being set up, variants: -everyone- including non-nokia can join in. Feb 18 12:06:40 anyway Feb 18 12:06:44 I'm done with that topic for now Feb 18 12:06:46 Is everybody still bitching about the package format? Feb 18 12:06:48 no need to add more to the noise :) Feb 18 12:06:55 +1 Feb 18 12:06:56 range: I'm certainly not Feb 18 12:07:01 I'm off to do some work Feb 18 12:07:06 w00t: Not calling names :) Feb 18 12:07:16 Just looked in for today and see the same discussion. Feb 18 12:07:26 range: I was explaining how I see things having evolved over the past few days, I couldn't care less what format is used personally, so long as there is consensus and effort is acknowledged if people want to put it in Feb 18 12:07:46 Stskeeps: well, I wait the MeeGo will be very good. Because I loved hear notice about merge maemo and mobling to competition with android and iphone OS Feb 18 12:07:47 what's your take on meego running on older tablets? Feb 18 12:08:11 Naranek: unsure. depends. Feb 18 12:08:54 Stskeeps: surely the platform itself being designed to run on multiple devices means that won't be as difficult a goal at least Feb 18 12:09:10 J_P: let's look at the technical merits when there's a system to look at, okay? Feb 18 12:09:17 Stskeeps: thanks. That'll do for now :) Feb 18 12:09:22 J_P: i'll like to bet a beer this will be awesome. Feb 18 12:10:34 Stskeeps: :-) Feb 18 12:11:26 The future's bright for sure. A lot of very clever and passionate people are getting together Feb 18 12:11:40 we also have to set aside our differences and work together, yes Feb 18 12:12:22 slaine_++ Feb 18 12:12:24 It's got no choice but to be bright when we're completely and suddenly plunged into complete darkness. Feb 18 12:13:22 zerojay: think bright pink and fluffy, we're going places Feb 18 12:13:40 Someone tell me when all the rpm/deb BS stops coming up in the mailing list. Feb 18 12:13:52 slaine_, we have been growing larger and larger around maemo for a while now :) this just combines things again like power frikkin rangers ;) Feb 18 12:13:58 zerojay: -community should be quiter, hopefully Feb 18 12:14:34 lcuk, mighty morphin' meego rangers Feb 18 12:14:44 zerojay, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=528175&postcount=2 Feb 18 12:14:53 zerojay: this hollywar would be going for long time ;) Feb 18 12:15:03 Stskeeps: btw, yes, you tend to get broken councils when it turns into a popularity contest. Feb 18 12:15:35 GeneralAntilles: Heh... I think I'm one of the few that doesn't mind the name. Feb 18 12:16:54 * GeneralAntilles wishes somebody would fix MeeGo-community. Feb 18 12:17:01 MeeGo-dev is all religious war spam. Feb 18 12:17:13 GeneralAntilles: I really think it's quieted down a fair bit the past few days Feb 18 12:17:19 compared to what it *was* Feb 18 12:17:32 it's still not ideal, no, but that'll continue to settle down Feb 18 12:17:37 Any MeeGo server infra admin awake? Feb 18 12:18:04 Hello community! I want a high level compiled language for Qt. Any suggestions? (GTK had Vala, Genie and Mono) Feb 18 12:18:05 X-Fade: i think townxelliot said something about wiki edits Feb 18 12:18:23 X-Fade: You mean to tell me you don't have access? Feb 18 12:18:42 zerojay: nope Feb 18 12:18:43 zerojay, I poked some people about it. Feb 18 12:19:01 zerojay, planning an IRC meeting possibly next Wednesday evening to discuss all these details. Feb 18 12:19:06 MelisU: C++ Feb 18 12:19:16 Um, also, #meego-ui and #meego-meeting have been registered and appropriately accessed. Feb 18 12:19:24 GeneralAntilles: We'll see if they can find it in their hearts to give any of us some access. Feb 18 12:19:25 #meego-devel was picked up by somebody I don't know. Feb 18 12:19:36 zerojay: i have only met open arms so far. Feb 18 12:19:37 X-Fade: having trouble logging into the wiki? Feb 18 12:19:51 Stskeeps, GeneralAntilles, whoever: has someone thought to file a GCF for #meego? Feb 18 12:19:53 zerojay, arjan said as long as people are vetted maemo.org-side it wont be an issue. Feb 18 12:19:58 w00t: i did earlier Feb 18 12:20:02 townxelliot: No, mailserver doesn't like me. Feb 18 12:20:03 w00t, I poked arjan. . . . Feb 18 12:20:05 Nevermind Feb 18 12:20:09 Stskeeps: good boy, I'll do a little prodding there later Feb 18 12:20:11 villemv: C++ stinks. I want more features and memory management. Feb 18 12:20:28 w00t: but there's really no indicated power structure than imad and vallerti, so it is a little hard to distinguish atm Feb 18 12:20:29 townxelliot: Server prevents hosts from sending when dns lookup doesn't work. Feb 18 12:20:30 w00t, just as we get setup for #maemo it becomes irrelevant. Feb 18 12:20:31 Le sigh Feb 18 12:20:41 GeneralAntilles: *g* Feb 18 12:21:05 X-Fade: ok, right - we need somewhere to log these issues, not sure if anywhere exists as yet - I'll check Feb 18 12:21:17 zerojay, if you want to rage against people, rage against Nokia/Intel execs and lawyers. Feb 18 12:21:21 Stskeeps: well - it's not really that big an issue I think Feb 18 12:21:29 zerojay, neither justified nor productive to rage against anybody at this level. Feb 18 12:21:45 townxelliot, hopefully bugs.meego.com RSN? :) Feb 18 12:22:09 GeneralAntilles: ++ Feb 18 12:22:37 * GeneralAntilles has got cool plans for pretty, friendly guided submission forms and everything. Feb 18 12:23:18 * w00t eyes GeneralAntilles nervously Feb 18 12:23:27 whenever I hear the word 'plans' I get all worried Feb 18 12:23:54 w00t, oh, I have some GOOD plans for you. *g* Feb 18 12:24:06 that makes me even more worried .. Feb 18 12:24:15 MelisU: havy you tried C++ & Qt ? It doesn't stink, really. You miss some goodies like closures, but it won't slow you down that much Feb 18 12:24:43 MelisU: Qt removes most of the aspects of memory management from you (unless you choose to handle it manually) if that's what you're worried about Feb 18 12:24:43 other C++ frameworks do stink by design, of course, but don't let that stop you Feb 18 12:25:19 Does Qt have language bindings ? Feb 18 12:25:24 yes, several Feb 18 12:25:25 Or is it C++ only ? Feb 18 12:25:25 slaine_: yes Feb 18 12:25:32 I'm waiting the Golang binding :-) Feb 18 12:25:35 hi. Feb 18 12:25:40 see also: pyqt (or pyside), etcetera Feb 18 12:25:48 cool Feb 18 12:26:08 not looked at Qt since 2003'ish, so looking forward to having an excuse now Feb 18 12:26:14 but really, many who try Qt with C++ can get by with just the good old C++ Feb 18 12:26:26 which of pyqt vs pyside is best to look at? Feb 18 12:26:27 slaine_: if you ever need help - ask Feb 18 12:26:38 da4089: licence-wise, pyside is more permissive, but it's not really stable in some areas yet Feb 18 12:26:40 I may do, my C++ is rusty as a rusty thing Feb 18 12:26:40 * villemv is pseudo-hardcore pythonista Feb 18 12:27:31 huge advantage of using C++ is Qt Creator Feb 18 12:27:43 just like eclipse is one of the few good reasons to use Java ;-) Feb 18 12:27:50 creator is indeed a big advantage :) Feb 18 12:28:08 * mece concurs. qt creator is sweet. Feb 18 12:28:36 i personally preffer kdevelop4, but that is not to say that qt creator is not very, very nifty :) Feb 18 12:28:59 It'll probably be next weekend that I get any real time on this unfortunately. It's birthday week for me at my house, (My wife, then me, then my son over a few days. ) Feb 18 12:29:24 villemv: I hate C++. Sorry. It is rusty. I hate .h and .cpp whenever I see it. I really don't want to deal with such an old language. Feb 18 12:29:39 w00t: thx Feb 18 12:29:45 MelisU: PySide or PyQt is a very good development system to MeeGo. Is perfect to maemo and I think will be to MeeGo too.. Feb 18 12:29:52 da4089: no problem -- let me know if you need help with it Feb 18 12:30:08 C++ doesn't feel that bad when there's Qt Feb 18 12:30:48 J_P: Python is dog slow and needs memory like the structural integrity of the universe would depend on it. Feb 18 12:31:34 MelisU: maybe one of these might fit your needs -> http://qt.nokia.com/products/programming-language-support Feb 18 12:31:56 Well, many of the alts are not much better (Java, C#, I'm looking at you) Feb 18 12:32:03 flightplan: Thanks, I will take a look. Feb 18 12:32:10 oh dear Feb 18 12:32:15 from one religious war to another :-) Feb 18 12:32:18 holywar! Feb 18 12:32:40 fight fire with fire :) Feb 18 12:32:46 MelisU: not. You are talking about use PyQT in 200MHZ and 16MB. Actually all smarphones.. used arm or atom that has >=600MHZ and minimum one core. memory >=512MB. Will be fast as C++ Feb 18 12:33:40 J_P: Nope, I run Kubuntu and I know how slow the python KDE apps are. Not suitable for a smartphone PERIOD Feb 18 12:34:03 MelisU: that is not optimized.. Feb 18 12:34:08 MelisU: fwiw, I've used python a fair bit with Qt for my n900, and it's perfectly responsive Feb 18 12:34:33 pygtk apps are also ok on n810 Feb 18 12:34:35 the only problem is that they have about a 1-1.5 second startup delay because I'm too lazy to pull in classes individually, and I import the whole of QtGui and QtCore Feb 18 12:34:36 and dont compare bloated kde with pure Qt Feb 18 12:34:39 MelisU: python for rewrite for maemo.. is very fast.. see what w00t say.. Feb 18 12:35:12 MelisU: while I'm not saying I'll change your mind, I'm just saying it might be worth reevaluating Feb 18 12:35:27 MelisU: but there's also Qyoto if you prefer c#/mono Feb 18 12:36:00 qyoto was discontinued IIRC, was't it? Feb 18 12:36:03 thanks guys, do you think Googles Unladen Swallow Python optimisations will make it to Meego? Feb 18 12:36:04 MelisU: yes.. pure QT is very fast compared with kde Feb 18 12:36:23 flightplan: qtjambi was, not qyoto afaik Feb 18 12:36:46 MelisU: at some point yes Feb 18 12:37:23 MelisU: I not your question, could you repeat with other words? Feb 18 12:38:00 MelisU, depends on whether it's a South African or European Swallow. Feb 18 12:38:15 LOL Feb 18 12:38:30 inz, hi \o Feb 18 12:38:31 MelisU: that uses even more memory that cpython and starts way way slower, so I can't see why you'd want it Feb 18 12:38:37 lcuk, hi Feb 18 12:38:41 i notice you took down your maemo urls Feb 18 12:38:45 or its broke Feb 18 12:39:05 lcuk, got some web crawler DDoS Feb 18 12:39:11 :( bah Feb 18 12:39:24 lcuk, apparently they went bezerk when MeeGo was announced. Feb 18 12:39:47 yeah - thats called thousands of hungry OSS advocates sniffing :p Feb 18 12:40:45 thousands of .deb advocates >:) Feb 18 12:41:22 MelisU: do you think that 1s to start a app is much? Feb 18 12:41:55 javispedro: s/advocates/zealots/ ;) Feb 18 12:42:08 gah! i fell in, sorry :) Feb 18 12:42:36 J_P: Well, not really .. BUT you have to compete with Iphone etc, where everything is really fast. People notice 1 second Feb 18 12:43:08 MelisU: we are talking about a alternative to C++. Feb 18 12:43:49 MelisU: people, correct me if I'm wrong. But, if you don't wont to write app in C/C++, actually better alterative is Python + QT. Feb 18 12:43:55 for MeeGO Feb 18 12:44:15 J_P: So ? I just prefer compiled language without bloat Feb 18 12:44:38 fwiu, yes, C++/Qt or PyQt4 is the way to go Feb 18 12:45:57 visual basic ftw Feb 18 12:46:38 and of course QML Feb 18 12:47:02 QML ? Qt Markup Language ?? Feb 18 12:47:19 J_P, 1 second app startup does sound like a lot... considering the whole OS starts in < 10seconds :) Feb 18 12:47:37 Which OS starts in 10 seconds? Feb 18 12:47:43 moblin Feb 18 12:47:45 yeah the new qt declarative ui Feb 18 12:48:03 Ok... Feb 18 12:48:22 yngwin: hmm, nice Feb 18 12:48:26 It's gonna be a lot more on the first MeeGo phone. Feb 18 12:48:52 * GeneralAntilles doesn't care about boot times. Feb 18 12:49:01 I don't use Intel processors on my phone, so I actually have good battery life. Feb 18 12:49:09 slaine_: http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2010/02/15/meet-qt-quick/ Feb 18 12:49:30 you should never have to boot your phone, so boot times i completely irrevlevant imo. Feb 18 12:50:00 mece, well, except when you take it out of the box. ;) Feb 18 12:50:45 mece, I wasn't really claiming that. I wanted to point out that it's not unreasonable to expect apps to start up pretty much immediately Feb 18 12:51:10 jku_, that is true. Depends on the app though. Feb 18 12:51:34 * w00t shakes fist at meego-community bounce Feb 18 12:51:40 juk_, but something should happen immidiately. Feb 18 12:51:53 jku_: Exactly. I really think Intel and especially Nokia needs to build something Vala-like for Qt. Feb 18 12:52:24 They seem to push Pyhton .. but that has so many downsides. Feb 18 12:52:55 app startup time in python is worse Feb 18 12:53:06 normal app startup time in general needs optimizing Feb 18 12:53:17 some frameworks are faster than others Feb 18 12:53:18 MelisU, how about vala? That works. Feb 18 12:53:26 Meego needs a productive high level compiled language or it will die. Feb 18 12:53:34 Vala does not work with Qt Feb 18 12:53:39 only GTK Feb 18 12:53:41 some are near instantanious Feb 18 12:53:46 MelisU, k. Feb 18 12:54:00 qt is already OO Feb 18 12:54:05 thats valas key Feb 18 12:54:05 * w00t yawns Feb 18 12:56:47 lcuk: No its key is to reduce complexity. Making writing fast programs simpler and being more productive Feb 18 12:56:49 Does Java meet that criteria? Feb 18 12:57:21 MelisU, is there so much boiler plate for qt? Feb 18 12:57:25 vmlemon_: No, monsterous big Vm Feb 18 12:57:29 i thought it was all encapsulated and simplified Feb 18 12:57:38 by virtue of it being c++ Feb 18 12:57:44 and no vm Feb 18 12:58:05 It is simple for C++ Feb 18 12:58:22 lcuk: it's a bit less verbose since it has a "preprocessor" that creates all boilerplate Feb 18 12:58:39 but that is still way off from really simple .. you still need to deal with .h shit and all the rusty rest of it Feb 18 12:58:42 so now people are requesting a pre-pre-processor? Feb 18 12:58:57 kinda .. yes Feb 18 12:59:13 well make an easy api wrapper class? Feb 18 12:59:20 with just the essentials Feb 18 12:59:21 you're telling me Qt is not easy enough? Feb 18 12:59:28 So everyone's saying that they don't want Qt... But they do? ;) Feb 18 12:59:41 MelisU: you do know you don't *have* to split the two, right? Feb 18 12:59:52 * lcuk is gonna make qt classes encapsulating liq* soon :) Feb 18 12:59:55 damn, you could classify as a student in javispedro's no-autotools school of programming Feb 18 13:00:06 class foo { foo() { bar(); } void bar() { return; } }; is perfectly valid C++ Feb 18 13:00:17 I, for one, am thrilled about Qt making it Feb 18 13:00:30 ++ pillar_ Feb 18 13:00:51 Qt is the reason i'm getting involved Feb 18 13:02:20 Ah, I see religious wars have now been pulled into my web coordination thread. Feb 18 13:02:52 GeneralAntilles: I did my best to stomp on it. Feb 18 13:03:25 w00t, nah, not Bergie, Aldon. Feb 18 13:03:54 w00t, Midgard vs Drupal is something that needs discussing. Feb 18 13:04:25 w00t, we don't want to dump a bunch of work into Drupal if we decide it's not suited. Feb 18 13:04:30 GeneralAntilles: if it does, and people are willing to invest effort into it, great Feb 18 13:04:42 GeneralAntilles: I'm just trying to avoid a repeat of the packaging discussion, really Feb 18 13:04:51 w00t, we have a LOT of time and effort into Midgard and quite a few people who know how to work it. Feb 18 13:04:53 GeneralAntilles: i.e. a lot of talk over not a lot and pretty much no action Feb 18 13:05:22 w00t, well, there's people willing and able to do with this discussion, so there's definitely action set to come out of it either way. ;) Feb 18 13:05:33 GeneralAntilles: *g* Feb 18 13:05:35 hard to have action until there's a MeeGo distro to act on Feb 18 13:05:40 GeneralAntilles: what makes drupal so bad? Feb 18 13:05:42 w00t: And so far no a lot of input is asked from our side. Feb 18 13:05:45 da4089, web stuff. Feb 18 13:05:55 Indeed, the meego.com stuff is basically all Intel. Feb 18 13:05:59 w00t: And I'm not suggesting using midgard for forum stuff either. Feb 18 13:06:08 da4089, before we get users pouring in is the time to figure this out. Feb 18 13:06:19 X-Fade: sure Feb 18 13:06:39 You have one chance to architect things and start from there. Feb 18 13:06:50 w00t, I've just had a consistent string of bad experiences with it as a user and as an website owner. Feb 18 13:06:54 like I said: if midguard really is the better solution, then let's go for it, I don't know much about either since I avoid prepackaged CMS like the plague Feb 18 13:07:04 We just need to make sure it fits our needs beforehand. Feb 18 13:07:15 w00t, I think the biggest argument for Midgard are the tools and expertise we already have for it. Feb 18 13:07:51 GeneralAntilles: *nod* Feb 18 13:08:00 We actually have a big community running on ours, too. *eg* Feb 18 13:08:20 that's a bit below the belt *g* Feb 18 13:09:03 The community aspect on maemo.org has been growing and evolving over many years. We know what our needs are. Feb 18 13:13:26 hi, w00t, GeneralAntilles, X-Fade Feb 18 13:13:33 bergie: hi there Feb 18 13:13:35 Hey, bergie. Feb 18 13:13:49 indeed, running a community like maemo.org needs quite a lot different infra than a typical open source project Feb 18 13:14:10 X-Fade: I wonder, though, whether you've put thought into what aspects of those needs could/will change Feb 18 13:14:16 ...as actually maemo.org is not just a single project, it is a collection of platform developers, end-users and many different smaller projects Feb 18 13:14:19 X-Fade: meego is a pretty big open slate that can be drawn on Feb 18 13:14:23 MelisU: intel & nokia endorse C++ for this Feb 18 13:14:47 w00t: Yes, but let's use experience we gained in a few years of growing. Feb 18 13:14:50 for end user applications (with speed, fast startup etc) Feb 18 13:15:11 X-Fade: I'm not talking about throwing anything out, either on the ML, or here Feb 18 13:15:18 X-Fade: I'm just doing some idle thinking now Feb 18 13:15:22 it's a good thing to have most people using the same language too - for code reuse Feb 18 13:15:38 Vala is not really needed for Qt in the sense it's needed for Gtk Feb 18 13:15:39 w00t: stuff like Karma and application quality assurance can of course be developed from scratch, but even then the experiences gained on what works and what doesn't on maemo.org are valuable Feb 18 13:15:42 villemv: OK, but that is IMO old and rusty. No type inference, closures, big, bloated and generally not really modern. Sorry. Feb 18 13:15:46 villemv, fast startup is not something that is granted solely by the language, you can make c++ go slower than python for example Feb 18 13:16:10 MelisU: C++ has type inference in C++0x Feb 18 13:16:21 vala works because the bloat required to code gtk objects in c is overwhelming Feb 18 13:16:44 right lcuk Feb 18 13:16:46 villemv: Yeah and C++0x is right around the corner Feb 18 13:16:53 but long before c++ i remember writing guis in c Feb 18 13:17:04 not Feb 18 13:17:06 and having everytihng, it all comes down to the complexities of the framework Feb 18 13:17:25 w00t: but also, we're offering the existing code and experience from maemo.org to be reused on meego.com. I think it'd work pretty well Feb 18 13:17:27 MelisU: soon enough, no sense to bank on another language instead Feb 18 13:17:33 MelisU: for the case of a number of compilers (gcc, vc2010, at least), you can quite a few bits of it right now Feb 18 13:18:12 I'd rather see emphasis on Go, it actually has significant advantages over C++ (while still being "native", without vm) Feb 18 13:18:21 but oh well, enough religious warfare for me today :-) Feb 18 13:18:34 I just don't see the C++ part a problem for Qt & MeeGo Feb 18 13:18:41 me neither Feb 18 13:18:45 villemv: Yeah Go would be great .. but still too new. Feb 18 13:18:58 bergie: sure, sure, I don't know why, but everyone seems to be implying that I have a problem with reusing existing infra -- if my mail gave that impression, it was not my intention Feb 18 13:19:12 presence of qt api within Go is something interested parties can work on tho Feb 18 13:19:15 by no means am I a person to throw out a baby with the bathwater Feb 18 13:19:16 and doesnt impact on benefits Feb 18 13:19:17 yes, it's new and has no Qt bindings. But C++ is Qt's "mother tongue", no intermediate layer needed Feb 18 13:19:20 of using c++ Feb 18 13:19:21 w00t, we hate you and we want to burn your house down. Feb 18 13:19:27 GeneralAntilles: *shake fist* Feb 18 13:19:32 w00t, so get in line or burn! :P Feb 18 13:19:34 416 people.. Feb 18 13:19:44 maemo is 603 Feb 18 13:19:49 416 people, everyone with an opinion :-) Feb 18 13:19:59 villemv: that's pretty much the way everything works Feb 18 13:20:10 villemv, mine is clearly superior to yours. Feb 18 13:20:20 the thing is, how many of those people will actually do things based on those opinions! :P Feb 18 13:20:27 * GeneralAntilles will! Feb 18 13:20:29 (probably) Feb 18 13:20:32 w00t: ok, great, it was a misintrepretation then :-) Anyway, hoping that we can help to build a cool community out of MeeGo. I was pretty happy with the Maemo one Feb 18 13:20:33 afternoon, Terminus- Feb 18 13:20:43 bergie: *nod* Feb 18 13:20:47 w00t: We are the exception as we actually _do_. Feb 18 13:20:56 GeneralAntilles: undoubtedly. that's why I retain my best opinions until the initial flamewars are settled Feb 18 13:21:16 X-Fade: just keep calling people out on it, they either start doing, or get very quiet and hide Feb 18 13:21:20 X-Fade: at least, that's my experience Feb 18 13:21:54 * GeneralAntilles can't wait for the ARM vs x86 flamewars. Feb 18 13:22:14 that's a boring one, over too fast Feb 18 13:22:36 GeneralAntilles: you can start one :P Feb 18 13:22:46 w00t: Yes. Talk is cheap. Feb 18 13:23:16 GeneralAntilles: the ARM saboteur ones are already insane Feb 18 13:25:12 Stskeeps, an Atom SoC as my only migration choice for a new Maemo er . . . MeeGo device scares me, too. :P Feb 18 13:25:39 GeneralAntilles: i'm curious what the MeeGo stance is on resistive vs capacitive Feb 18 13:25:39 :P Feb 18 13:25:59 resistice vs capacitive vs none Feb 18 13:26:05 Stskeeps: oh shut it :P Feb 18 13:26:07 ive Feb 18 13:26:13 just as long as it has a kb Feb 18 13:26:16 * GeneralAntilles throws cold noodles at Stskeeps. Feb 18 13:26:26 lardman, not nearly enough. Feb 18 13:29:30 lardman: I'm afraid of losing the kb too, capacitive multitouch is not the same.. Feb 18 13:29:39 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2010/02/18/maemo-meego/ Feb 18 13:30:37 pillar_: capacitive is nasty anyway, though I'd have resistive multitouch Feb 18 13:30:47 no way I'll go near something without a kb Feb 18 13:32:36 seeing my wife curse her Android phone and trying to get useful work done on an N800 have proven that to me Feb 18 13:33:39 lardman: *grin* Feb 18 13:34:24 shortly followed by her cursing me for having suggested she get an Android phone so I could see what it was like :) Feb 18 13:34:30 argh, will the package format discussion diealready Feb 18 13:34:48 w00t: it reached a sane point: try to align things a little bit so it doesn't matter anymore Feb 18 13:34:53 Stskeeps: not that thread Feb 18 13:35:23 Stskeeps: see aldon's latest mail for an example of what I mean Feb 18 13:35:33 ah Feb 18 13:38:00 * GeneralAntilles restrains himself from sending angry emails to Aldon. Feb 18 13:38:10 +1 Feb 18 13:38:27 * GeneralAntilles went with (mostly) friendly. Feb 18 13:38:32 ... but you can't use yum in vbulletin! Feb 18 13:38:48 * GeneralAntilles throws more cold noodles javispedro's direction. Feb 18 13:39:53 so have we decided that deb is the best then? Feb 18 13:40:05 I must admit I lost interest after post c.1e7 Feb 18 13:40:07 hi bergie Feb 18 13:40:26 lardman, we're actually just going to go with tarballs. Feb 18 13:40:33 :) Feb 18 13:40:38 lardman, it'll help keep users from hurting themselves with 3rd-party software. Feb 18 13:40:44 and making packaging so much easier Feb 18 13:40:48 hi Mirv Feb 18 13:40:48 no, applications should be transferred on floppy disks Feb 18 13:40:53 yes Feb 18 13:40:55 punch cards Feb 18 13:41:04 Damn you, lardman. Feb 18 13:41:06 wave them in front of the camera to read them Feb 18 13:41:06 * GeneralAntilles typoed. Feb 18 13:41:09 I can not help but imagine the face of the iphone users when the n910 ships with optional usb floppy reader. Feb 18 13:41:16 a full computer! Feb 18 13:41:21 It's better than an iPad Feb 18 13:41:31 of course, as long as it has a kb! Feb 18 13:41:34 and cheaper Feb 18 13:41:45 vmlemon_, sadly it's got a worse name. Feb 18 13:41:53 Heh Feb 18 13:42:05 punch cards? that's a luxury Feb 18 13:42:11 /mee doesn't know what name is that ;) Feb 18 13:42:13 You can get worse than a MaxiPod? Feb 18 13:42:16 * vmlemon_ hides Feb 18 13:42:18 and here I was thinking we'd all handwrite them and send our device and the written code to Stskeeps and get him to type it in Feb 18 13:42:44 ... the battery cover hides the binary switches Feb 18 13:42:53 please refrain from quoting xkcd, thank you. Feb 18 13:43:02 and the leds to you know you've put it in correctly Feb 18 13:43:30 we would get back to the old good days when programs were distributed via printed magazines Feb 18 13:43:44 I remember typing furiously on my ZX Spectrum Feb 18 13:43:49 * javispedro laughs at slashdot's latest article. Feb 18 13:44:33 We were at the forefront of cutting-edge technology, once - software (in BASIC) delivered through TeleText... Feb 18 13:44:43 let's go back to vm based software distribution Feb 18 13:44:48 BASIC vm. Feb 18 13:44:49 vmlemon_: Mmmm, BBC teletext adapters. Feb 18 13:45:16 * Jaffa almost convinced his parents to get one, only a few months before they pulled the plug on it being a s/w delivery channel. Feb 18 13:46:28 None of that VBI-based lark now. You're having MHEG-5 and DVB, whether you like them or not. (At least as long as OfCom are getting their way). Feb 18 13:46:47 *OfCom and the broadcasters Feb 18 13:59:09 hello, is there a list of devices which meego will run on somewhere? Feb 18 13:59:33 hanez, sort of? Feb 18 13:59:57 http://meego.com/devices/ Feb 18 14:01:24 awww GeneralAntilles you got me all excited there, i tohught theywould list proper viable available preinstalled hardware :p Feb 18 14:02:03 lcuk, Dell, Samsung, MSI. Feb 18 14:02:09 Otherwise wait 6 months. Feb 18 14:02:34 get Feb 18 14:02:36 hey* Feb 18 14:03:01 GeneralAntilles: are the pictures on that page "next gen" art, or just some sloppy coder throwing something together? Feb 18 14:03:28 luke-jr, I'm presuming they have little relation to reality. Feb 18 14:03:33 you mean the screenshot in the netbook section, or the general clipart? Feb 18 14:03:41 s/clipart/art Feb 18 14:03:41 GeneralAntilles, model numbers etc would be good Feb 18 14:03:45 But I wasn't involved in the production of anything on meego.com, so I have no idea. Feb 18 14:03:53 lcuk, Dell is the Mini 10v Feb 18 14:04:00 GeneralAntilles: thanky, but i meant is not a list of device types but devices like G1 etc Feb 18 14:04:33 lcuk, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moblin+dell Feb 18 14:04:55 hanez, MeeGo hasn't had its first release yet. Feb 18 14:05:01 hanez, so, there isn't such a beast. Feb 18 14:05:19 GeneralAntilles, those are pcs tho Feb 18 14:05:48 i know... ok, i will wait. do you think that it will be available for older devices such as G1 etc in the future? Feb 18 14:06:06 hanez, if it's got less than 800x480, I doubt it Feb 18 14:06:13 Unless some third party adds another UI on top. Feb 18 14:06:17 I doubt it either way.. Feb 18 14:06:27 does the ui really need 800?? Feb 18 14:06:40 this should be patchable Feb 18 14:06:59 the g1's olllld, cant see that supporting meego releases Feb 18 14:07:05 hanez, to what end? Feb 18 14:07:08 patchable, yes. Feb 18 14:07:11 hanez, you'd just be removing functionality. Feb 18 14:07:23 we patch xorg and create a virtual screen larger than the real screen. Feb 18 14:07:42 and you use the accelerometer to scroll. Feb 18 14:07:49 hey, I'm going to patent that. Feb 18 14:07:57 javispedro, likely already been patented. Feb 18 14:08:09 when you do, make sure its disableable for those of us who're sane :( Feb 18 14:08:35 why? I'm having UX orgasm here. Feb 18 14:08:54 ;P Feb 18 14:08:58 * lcuk mutters something about flexible ui scaling Feb 18 14:09:07 qt handles it gracefully afaik Feb 18 14:09:19 and if not, you can always add a third ui to it Feb 18 14:09:23 or 4th Feb 18 14:09:26 5th Feb 18 14:09:51 lcuk, there are limits. Feb 18 14:10:05 GeneralAntilles, i know this Feb 18 14:10:26 ok, thanks for the first information. i am new to moblin/meego but i will watch the project... ;) Feb 18 14:10:41 This interface looks like the base of the harmattan idea ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I3x04uDh3E Feb 18 14:10:56 android is very nice but i dont want that stupid layer for writing graphical apps. i want gtk! :) Feb 18 14:11:55 I'm happy with Qt. :) Feb 18 14:11:55 X-Fade, gulp! i tried similar with liqbase scrolling ages ago, it needs flawless rendering to work or just leaves you feeling sick Feb 18 14:12:40 Lynoure: i don't like c++... ;) Feb 18 14:12:58 hanez: there is pyqt, at least Feb 18 14:13:10 lcuk: Yeah, rendering need to be flawless. But then again, when doesn't it :) Feb 18 14:13:21 but the coolest thing in meego is that the developer has the choice... Feb 18 14:13:31 lol to the spiraling zoom Feb 18 14:13:32 i really love to write apps in c Feb 18 14:13:35 really Feb 18 14:13:45 X-Fade, yeah we know that :) Feb 18 14:14:06 javispedro: Their first concept was before maemo5. Feb 18 14:14:13 hanez, can i develop qt apps in c? Feb 18 14:14:16 hanez: Good thing Qt isn't really c++ then ;) Feb 18 14:14:27 http://s005.radikal.ru/i211/1002/2f/72a54f88264b.jpg <- join the deb gang! Feb 18 14:14:30 leinir: ?? Feb 18 14:14:38 qt is c++ Feb 18 14:14:47 wazd, i cant even read that Feb 18 14:14:55 lcuk: i dont think so Feb 18 14:15:06 lcuk: ofcourse you can't, it's a tag :D Feb 18 14:15:25 no, i can normally read the graffiti around here Feb 18 14:15:52 hanez: Sort of like how Vala is technically C ;) Feb 18 14:17:30 leinir: isn't vala a language to language compiler? qt is a set of c++ classes... Feb 18 14:17:42 qt also has its own compiler Feb 18 14:17:47 ah ok Feb 18 14:17:58 javispedro: i didn't knew taht Feb 18 14:18:06 hanez: it's wrong Feb 18 14:18:19 the moc is technically a compiler Feb 18 14:18:29 hanez: Qt uses some code generators saving you from witing boilerplate code Feb 18 14:18:44 of course Qt's C++ isn't as different from normal C++ than Vala is different from C Feb 18 14:19:02 but "Vala uses some code generators saving you from writing boilerplate code" is also true. Feb 18 14:19:06 andre_, javispedro: ok, i don't know much about qt. Feb 18 14:19:37 but isn't the result for qt a set of c++ classes Feb 18 14:20:13 but isnt the result of vala a set of c classes Feb 18 14:21:24 lcuk: but what the result for qt is, is that you could not write qt apps in c Feb 18 14:22:42 yes, you can't. but I find it hard to hate the C++ subset used by Qt. Feb 18 14:23:24 javispedro: i don't hate it! i don't like c++ at all... thats why i am devleoping c apps Feb 18 14:23:43 argh, of course qt is straight c++ Feb 18 14:23:53 moc is a code generator Feb 18 14:23:59 not compiler Feb 18 14:24:12 what's a compiler? what's a code generator? Feb 18 14:24:14 whats the difference? ;) Feb 18 14:24:20 and foreach is just a macro, but your point is what? ;) Feb 18 14:24:23 :) even Feb 18 14:24:31 moc doesn't generate machine code Feb 18 14:24:42 old style c compilers didnt either Feb 18 14:24:49 s/c/c++ Feb 18 14:24:52 * lcuk2 remembers .a files Feb 18 14:24:52 it just looks at some files and creates a cpp file Feb 18 14:25:04 think of a corba program, for example Feb 18 14:25:31 is a program using CORBA a C++ program, because it invokes an IDL compiler and generates some code Feb 18 14:25:43 IDL compiler :) Feb 18 14:26:05 yes, ok, you got me on semantics here Feb 18 14:26:18 but this is being a bit nitpicky of course. Feb 18 14:26:23 but it's nowhere near to how e.g. vala works Feb 18 14:26:26 * lcuk2 parses javispedro and generates 3 umpa-lumpas Feb 18 14:26:37 where you don't run you "own" code at all Feb 18 14:26:52 moc-hatred is fud mostly Feb 18 14:26:59 villemv: The point simply is that Qt is not your standard c++ :) Feb 18 14:27:01 I don't hate moc. Feb 18 14:27:02 villemv, and if vala changed to generate and link the asm? Feb 18 14:27:08 even iwth the c stage in the middle? Feb 18 14:27:09 And as such, it basically makes c++ pleasant to work with :) Feb 18 14:27:14 would you think differently? Feb 18 14:27:18 lcuk2: that would be even worse Feb 18 14:28:23 vala would be like Qt + moc if it looked for some macros in the headers and created a .c file Feb 18 14:28:28 that you just added to your program Feb 18 14:28:41 and you would write the rest of your program in normal c Feb 18 14:29:08 but now, Vala creates code that actually does all the logic, and your original code doesn't get run at all in the form it's written in Feb 18 14:29:27 villemv: it rarely does with compiled languages Feb 18 14:29:48 cpus tend to not understand human-readable programming languages Feb 18 14:30:41 darn CPUs ;) Feb 18 14:31:07 it's a compiler. it parses an input and generates code on the output. the fact that it is 95% similar is just a side effect >:) Feb 18 14:31:10 then there is only one fix: build better humans Feb 18 14:31:23 110100101011010101010111010101011010101101010101010100110! Feb 18 14:31:28 of course "to each his own" and old c++ compilers generated C code as well Feb 18 14:31:51 but comparison with moc is seriously strething it Feb 18 14:32:02 in fact, come to think of it. Feb 18 14:32:03 there is nothing "nonstandard c++" in moc usage Feb 18 14:32:10 isn't moc = "meta object _compiler_" heh Feb 18 14:32:20 you will never write code that is not standard c++ Feb 18 14:32:30 public slots: is hardly standard c++ Feb 18 14:32:44 that's a macro Feb 18 14:32:55 defined in a standard fashion Feb 18 14:32:57 Qt is a programming language Feb 18 14:33:25 it happens to be mostly source compatible with C++ Feb 18 14:33:28 just like C++ was with C Feb 18 14:33:51 the current implementation of Qt uses C++, just as the current implementation of C++ uses C Feb 18 14:34:06 this is getting psychedelic Feb 18 14:34:19 you asked for it! :) Feb 18 14:34:35 so it's not that Qt violates C++ standards; it simply isn't the same language :) Feb 18 14:34:38 villemv, nahh, this is tame, just wait until you start working on compiler compilers with BNF grammars and stuff ;) Feb 18 14:35:30 I mean the conversation, leers around semantic bickering instead of actual technical details Feb 18 14:35:39 I create a image with follow meego wiki...it a total moblin img, only run on a ATOM cpu...will we build a full new sys without maemo resources? Feb 18 14:35:41 C++ using qt is perfectly standard C++ Feb 18 14:35:48 this is meego though, bickering over technical details is required? Feb 18 14:36:09 well, if we were talking about technical details instead of playing around with words... Feb 18 14:36:28 oh, at least I'm an academic. I tend to get lost on technical details until someone tells me "it's just yet another reimplementation of an NPDA". Feb 18 14:36:55 isn't there a simple litmus test for whether it's c++ or not, namely does it compile with a c++ compiler? after code generation and macro expansion naturally Feb 18 14:37:07 it would compile, but fail to link I guess. Feb 18 14:37:08 poutsi: exactly Feb 18 14:37:35 yes, linker error unless you add the object file you got from moc Feb 18 14:38:00 c++ standard doesn't say whether you are allowed to link stuff to your program Feb 18 14:38:42 yeah, and not allowing code generation is like saying you can't generate headers from idl files, it just doesn't make sense Feb 18 14:38:55 indeed Feb 18 14:39:05 poutsi: the issue here is, would you say idl is c++ because the idl compiler generates c++? Feb 18 14:39:15 of course not Feb 18 14:39:36 c++ standard doesn't say every file you deal with has to be c++ Feb 18 14:39:47 makefiles would fail that test real fast ;-) Feb 18 14:40:09 javispedro, this is exactly where I use my litmus test Feb 18 14:40:36 The difference is that you never feed a Makefile to a C++ compiler, I guess. Which makes it all moot Feb 18 14:40:38 the end result, whatever it is, goes through a c++ compiler, therefore for all useful intents and purposes it is c++ Feb 18 14:41:06 which is a bit useless since you don't question if the output of that compiler is useful at all. Feb 18 14:41:18 now I don't follow you Feb 18 14:41:36 Qt code would pass that test, but would fail to link. Is that C++ then? Feb 18 14:41:43 *yes* Feb 18 14:41:51 c++ standard doesn't say what you can link to Feb 18 14:42:00 you can link to .o files created from assembly Feb 18 14:42:05 yep, that's pretty crucial here in my mind too Feb 18 14:42:05 or whatever Feb 18 14:42:36 villemv: but what was previously selfcontained is no longer selfcontained if you use a standards-compliant c++ compiler Feb 18 14:42:46 thus it's broken. Feb 18 14:42:49 that's a different matter altogether Feb 18 14:43:04 standard doesn't say anything about being "selfcontained" Feb 18 14:43:16 nothing is selfcontained in the world of libraries etc Feb 18 14:44:02 on another totally unrelated matter, anybody happen to know if it's legal to use an URI as an id in QML? Feb 18 14:44:17 I can't be bothered to /j #qt :p Feb 18 14:44:18 probably not Feb 18 14:44:40 almost definitely not ;-) Feb 18 14:44:51 well, it's magic time then I guess Feb 18 14:45:19 what on earth are you trying to do? :-) Feb 18 14:45:54 dynamically generated ui based on rdf data Feb 18 14:46:18 ok... yeah, flattening scheme time Feb 18 14:47:35 qml has own irc channel too Feb 18 14:47:45 #qt-declarative or somesuch Feb 18 14:47:50 sorry, "Qt Quick" Feb 18 14:49:37 villemv: oh, I'm pretty sure that any sane standard would mention that the code actually build. Feb 18 14:50:14 javispedro: standard deals with creation of valid object code Feb 18 14:50:16 which you cannot with Qt code unless you use the Qt toolchain. Feb 18 14:50:25 linkage is separate (platform specific) matter Feb 18 14:50:59 villemv: actually standard doesn't talk about creation of valid object code Feb 18 14:51:04 that would be ELF stuff etc. Feb 18 14:51:09 the standard is on a higher level Feb 18 14:51:21 it talks about language features, standard libraries and behaviour Feb 18 14:51:36 javispedro: ok, chalk that object code stuff to "behavior" Feb 18 14:52:00 beahaviour is that a hello world C++ app with a sample class works. Feb 18 14:52:33 argh, *behavior Feb 18 14:52:35 not sure if c++ standard says what it should do Feb 18 14:52:57 never got around to reading the standard, only people talking about the standard Feb 18 14:53:08 well but I'm sure you know a certain quote. Feb 18 14:53:24 "i = i++" being undefined behavior Feb 18 14:53:42 it does not say nothing about it generating n relocations to x object files and libraries Feb 18 14:53:44 actually, it's not undefined Feb 18 14:53:55 i = i++ is defined Feb 18 14:54:06 it just has some redundancy ;-) Feb 18 14:54:17 i is incremented, then reset Feb 18 14:54:41 right Feb 18 14:54:47 not in C Feb 18 14:54:54 well, this is all old stuff Feb 18 14:55:01 you're going to make me check Feb 18 14:55:02 what would it do in C? Feb 18 14:55:29 whatever the implementor wanted Feb 18 14:55:33 well, whatever. Feb 18 14:55:46 no, it should evaluate rhs first, then do the assignment Feb 18 14:56:10 you may be confusing this with having many ++ operations on same variable in function arguments for a call Feb 18 14:56:14 even if it's specified it later revisions, my point is that it doesn't say if the object code generated for that is an addi instruction or a function call to a library function. Feb 18 14:56:26 i dont think the evaluation order is defined, but the evaluation of rhs doesnt affect the lfs Feb 18 14:56:33 lhs Feb 18 14:56:43 right Feb 18 14:56:47 What flame war are we on at the moment ? Feb 18 14:56:56 slaine_: "is Qt standard C++" Feb 18 14:57:10 slaine_: which it is, obviously ;-) Feb 18 14:57:12 slaine_: they are exploring what c++ is. Feb 18 14:57:32 Hmm, my C++ consists of C with classes Feb 18 14:57:36 we are wasting some time before lunch :) Feb 18 14:57:41 this should be a Qt FAQ :) Feb 18 14:57:47 oh dear Feb 18 14:57:50 I've just had a lovely lunch Feb 18 14:57:55 I stop paying attention for an hour and miss all the fun Feb 18 14:58:11 only if that is your definition of fun. Feb 18 14:58:24 MisterN: call me a masochist Feb 18 14:58:28 w00t_: I'm sure we can start up another one, let me refer to my checklist. Feb 18 14:58:41 slaine_: what's next on the agenda? the merits of emacs? Feb 18 14:58:54 slaine_: oh, lucky you. :( Feb 18 14:58:55 I think that was covered on Tuesday evening Feb 18 14:58:58 w00t_: but it's ok. some people will even debate whether c++ is a different language than c. Feb 18 14:59:00 "which desktop environment is best for meego development"? Feb 18 14:59:03 slaine, did you do apt vs rpm already? Feb 18 14:59:20 * w00t_ stabs inz in the eyesockets Feb 18 14:59:23 I skipped that one, it'd only give me indigestion. Feb 18 14:59:29 :P Feb 18 14:59:36 skipped, who am I kidding Feb 18 14:59:43 w00t, ha ha, blocked with my eyeballs! Feb 18 14:59:48 After 5000 emails to the list, I'd want to be super man to skip over that one Feb 18 15:00:42 hi Feb 18 15:01:00 villemv: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/c-faq/c-4.html#4-3 Feb 18 15:02:12 javispedro: now that's extremely weird Feb 18 15:03:12 does C indeed not specify it?? Feb 18 15:04:16 --i++ is a bit more fun, btw Feb 18 15:04:41 or something like that Feb 18 15:04:50 * w00t_ forgets it now, was discussed long long ago Feb 18 15:05:23 --i++ depends mostly on the operator precedence I guess, but I believe it's pretty well defined otherwise. Feb 18 15:05:44 IIRC it's deceptive in that it looks well defined but it's not Feb 18 15:05:55 but I'd have to go reading Feb 18 15:06:25 the result of the first evaluation would not be an lvalue Feb 18 15:06:26 right, gcc gives 3 Feb 18 15:07:11 without giving a warning even Feb 18 15:08:18 my favourite Cism is the undefined signage of char Feb 18 15:08:31 yeah :) Feb 18 15:08:32 that has bitten me in the ass before when putting code on PPC. Feb 18 15:09:11 the maemo toolchain also has reversed signedness vs gcc x86. Feb 18 15:09:15 (of char) Feb 18 15:09:37 which causes hard to track bugs sometimes... :( Feb 18 15:09:44 it was something like getopt() in a loop with a char, while != -1 or something Feb 18 15:09:54 and of course, it using unsigned char on PPC, meant that bad things happened Feb 18 15:10:03 yeah, I imagine :( Feb 18 15:10:27 hey w00t_ Feb 18 15:10:55 hi Feb 18 15:21:34 For those intersted, pending discussions elsewhere (such as meego-community), there's a discsuion about meego.com fora at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44977 Feb 18 15:23:16 ta Jaffa Feb 18 15:28:22 hi all Feb 18 15:28:26 hey Feb 18 15:29:42 question: i'm having problem w meego-community mailing list Feb 18 15:30:05 the qestion: did anyone manage to post there? Feb 18 15:30:06 whats the problem than amby Feb 18 15:30:19 amby: AFAIK, it's still broken. Various threads about it on meego-dev ;-) Feb 18 15:30:39 ahma, thx Feb 18 15:31:12 how do I cultivate and support the diverse MeeGo community then? ;) Feb 18 15:31:35 5 mins before you joined, I said: Feb 18 15:31:38 For those intersted, pending discussions elsewhere (such as meego-community), there's a discsuion about meego.com fora at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44977 Feb 18 15:32:12 amby: And there's http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group and other pages under http://wiki.meego.com/Category:Community Feb 18 15:34:25 Jaffa: thx, missed that thread Feb 18 15:34:47 * Jaffa 's got his community facilitator hat back on. It's just like the 770 days :) Feb 18 15:35:00 I've signed up for the community workgroup Feb 18 15:37:35 Jaffa, fun fun. . . . Feb 18 15:38:53 Added my thoughts. Feb 18 15:40:09 amby: Ah, just spotted from RenegadeFanboy's sig that you're them. Feb 18 15:47:18 little notice: MeeGo Wiki -> Preferences -> Special pages -> files : some HTML being showed on that page. Feb 18 15:47:40 dont know who to tell that so I just tell it here Feb 18 15:48:12 bva: townxelliot would be my guess Feb 18 15:48:58 bva: Special pages > File list? Feb 18 15:49:15 bva: paste the URL in here, I'll have a look Feb 18 15:49:34 http://wiki.meego.com/Special:Preferences -> files Feb 18 15:51:10 Guys I like to contribute to Meego altough I'm not really a programmer / anything fancy titled ... whats the best way to be helpfull? Feb 18 15:51:21 bva: better? (MediaWiki default, not sure why that was broken) Feb 18 15:51:56 townxelliot: nice one :) Feb 18 15:53:27 if one is interested in one of the working group proposals, i guess i should just add myself? Feb 18 15:53:37 th0br0: correct Feb 18 15:53:44 hey guys, you know some websites have things to make the font bigger if you find it's to small to read Feb 18 15:53:51 how easy is it to do that? Feb 18 15:54:13 CosmoHill: It's called the text-zoom feature in your web browser. Try holding Ctrl and scrolling up & down on your mouse wheel ;-) Feb 18 15:54:42 CosmoHill: If you implement it from scratch building its not that hard Feb 18 15:54:50 I'm making a wesbite and have been told to research it Feb 18 15:55:08 bva: there's many different areas to help out in :) Feb 18 15:55:11 rule #1: have sensible size text Feb 18 15:55:15 I think you better go to #php or any other language you are using Feb 18 15:55:18 bva: when the structures start appearing, i'm sure you'll find a spot Feb 18 15:55:33 not "too small by default, allow making it larger" Feb 18 15:56:00 javascript snippet probably Feb 18 15:56:16 CosmoHill: Or you can refer to different css style pages Feb 18 15:56:45 hmm Feb 18 15:56:58 I'll have a play this afternoon Feb 18 15:57:10 like add a "do you have glasses" option button on the profile page :D Feb 18 15:57:10 kinda hooked on a game atm :) Feb 18 15:57:11 Jaffa: ok, done .) Feb 18 15:57:20 should be pretty easy with some javascript Feb 18 15:57:54 yay1 yum! Feb 18 15:57:55 :D) Feb 18 15:58:25 tha advantage of JS is that you dont have to reload I guess Feb 18 15:59:35 I'm doing two websites for differnet modules Feb 18 15:59:42 one is xhtml + css + JS only Feb 18 15:59:49 the other has that and php + mysql Feb 18 16:02:21 Jaffa: funny / interesting how there are pretty much only nokia guys (and girls) listed on the working group contributors / interested ppl list Feb 18 16:02:35 we're a very very active community Feb 18 16:02:36 :P Feb 18 16:02:37 and some maemo officials too Feb 18 16:02:39 ;P Stskeeps Feb 18 16:02:58 Stskeeps: why iz there no meego-packaging list yet? :D Feb 18 16:03:03 eeh -repository Feb 18 16:03:10 code first, wine later Feb 18 16:03:10 :P Feb 18 16:03:34 ;) true. Feb 18 16:03:51 what is the first target for meego? ARM? Feb 18 16:04:09 kebax: arm and x86 i gues Feb 18 16:04:09 s Feb 18 16:04:43 so did ppl decided to go for a combined packaging syustem or just solo RPM ? Feb 18 16:05:12 okay, so mobile-ux for arm and netbook-ux for atom.. er, sorry.. x86 Feb 18 16:05:18 meego will be using yum, bva... Feb 18 16:05:26 therefore separated packages for all architecutres. Feb 18 16:07:50 btw, is that rpm vs deb still the same trolling thread it was at the beginnign? Feb 18 16:08:25 how is architechture separation dependable on package sysetm? Feb 18 16:09:02 kebax: it is not. but i don't know whether it's rpm or yum, but ... oh... Feb 18 16:09:09 i misunderstood bva's question i guess. Feb 18 16:09:38 I did not undestand that eiher Feb 18 16:09:40 no, it's yum for both architectures. only that ofc you've got different rpms for the 2 architectures, not both in one ;) Feb 18 16:10:08 kebax: i think he wanted to know whether meego would use sth like apt or yum or interface with rpm directly Feb 18 16:10:24 well, it was about the RPM vs DEB thinghy. I followed the discussion a bit and ppl are agreeing in supporting both at the same time Feb 18 16:10:44 bof Feb 18 16:10:48 oh Feb 18 16:11:04 both at the same time? that's ... crazy. Feb 18 16:11:18 and completely unlogical... that requires twice the amount of qa and whatnot. Feb 18 16:11:25 well thats the last post I read about it Feb 18 16:11:41 mh, ok, so it's not really important ;) Feb 18 16:11:51 probably Feb 18 16:11:53 :) Feb 18 16:12:39 My opinion? people have to just accept decicions that are being made ... adn not question EVERYTHING :) Feb 18 16:13:11 yeah. i think pretty much the same way although i have got a yum/rpm "background" ;) Feb 18 16:13:13 unless they have a valid reason for it and know what they are talking about Feb 18 16:14:08 er, isnt maemo packaged in deb? Feb 18 16:14:11 there has been no eta on code so far, has there? Feb 18 16:14:17 kebax: it is; meego however will be packaged in rpm Feb 18 16:14:33 You have to understand that the largest vocal community is coming from maemo.org and they know deb. Feb 18 16:14:42 So they come from that standpoint. Feb 18 16:15:12 well, I heard a long time ago that moblin was planning deb packaging Feb 18 16:15:16 yeah X-Fade i know. Feb 18 16:15:33 http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/image-config/default-vm.ks << nice to see that meego will be vm-able without problems... or so it seems Feb 18 16:16:51 so maemo does deb well, wouldnt that be a synergy aspect Feb 18 16:17:02 I guess I'll take a look at the specs used right now. Feb 18 16:17:05 "well"... Feb 18 16:19:29 mh, right now that repo.meego.com only seems to contain moblin-related stuff. Feb 18 16:20:54 th0br0: you are right Feb 18 16:21:17 ... but? Feb 18 16:21:41 X-Fade: Let me introduce you to townxelliot (Niels Breet meet Elliot Smith). One's the maemo.org webmaster, the other is the meego.com website techy. Feb 18 16:23:45 someone keeping a who's who yet? :P Feb 18 16:24:16 * Jaffa was going to start-one, but we've basically got one for the community peeps at http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group Feb 18 16:24:21 I just started that :D Feb 18 16:24:26 * itdock gets thoroughly caffinated Feb 18 16:24:27 well I'm cosmo Feb 18 16:24:33 bva: URL? Feb 18 16:24:34 I thought, damn I have to write this down! Feb 18 16:24:42 :3 Feb 18 16:24:46 No url yet, can I make one? Feb 18 16:24:50 Stskeeps: no, i was ... thinking about starting one, too Feb 18 16:24:53 * Jaffa starts one. Hang on Feb 18 16:25:13 thanks Jaffa :) Feb 18 16:25:36 * bva thinks jaffa is to enthousiastic :p Feb 18 16:25:40 ^^ Feb 18 16:25:53 well, right now, there is no code, so you've got to do somethink ;D Feb 18 16:26:22 http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Feb 18 16:26:30 Put a structure in place, not created any links yet. Feb 18 16:26:33 TBH im kind of new in this comunity thing so im a bit "afraid" of making things and such Feb 18 16:26:48 bva: everyone is a newbie atm Feb 18 16:26:49 Much like most open source projects governed by a benevolent dictator, the MeeGo project will be led Imad Sousou (imad.sousou@intel.com) and Valtteri Halla (valtteri.halla@nokia.com). duh... well, i guessed sth like that still they should make some board that get's like 1/2 community, 1/3 nokia & 1/3 intel :D Feb 18 16:26:57 Jaffa maybe drop the ' to avoid problems? Feb 18 16:27:09 The names in the first bit are easy, the names in the third bit are easy (for me); some of the names for the fourth group I got from townxelliot Feb 18 16:27:15 bva: But then it'd be grammatically incorrect ;-) Feb 18 16:27:20 maybe make it 3/7 community 2/7 intel 2/7 nokia yah... Feb 18 16:27:35 Jaffa: true Feb 18 16:27:58 bva: I've added a redirect at http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who to make it easier to type though ;-) Feb 18 16:27:58 Jaffa: first one, imad's nick is imad and was here earlier today Feb 18 16:28:04 Stskeeps: Indeed Feb 18 16:28:19 * CosmoHill offers people tea and hobnobs Feb 18 16:29:38 :) Feb 18 16:29:42 Ok hope I didnt mix Townx and X-fade up :p Feb 18 16:31:30 you could#ve put some links in there bva ;) Feb 18 16:31:59 hey as I tokd you I'm very new to this community thing so :p I'm stil llearning :D Feb 18 16:32:11 Let me try this :p Feb 18 16:33:02 bva: I've just saved the whole page so you may get a conflict. Feb 18 16:33:09 too bad i missed imad :( Feb 18 16:34:11 Damn you Jaffa :p Feb 18 16:34:13 i think he'll be back once he's not jetlagged anymore :) Feb 18 16:34:47 bva: sorry, I'm feeling fervent Feb 18 16:34:51 true :) oh yeah... i completely forgot that the nokia ppl are in pretty much the same timezone as i am ;) Feb 18 16:34:54 * Jaffa limits himself to the Maemo community stakeholders for now Feb 18 16:35:49 :P Feb 18 16:35:54 nono go ahead :p Feb 18 16:36:02 let yourself go Feb 18 16:36:11 be wild! :D Feb 18 16:36:12 wheee Feb 18 16:36:16 fire alarm Feb 18 16:36:29 good thing you're on your mobile Feb 18 16:36:32 in that case your supposed to get out of the building ml-mobile Feb 18 16:36:33 yup Feb 18 16:36:39 oh I am Feb 18 16:36:49 would be nice to see the source code released by the end of this week though... imad's "about to" looks great .D Feb 18 16:37:29 besides, forget that timezone gibberish, i forgot that imad's from intel (therefore usa) and not the nokia guy :) Feb 18 16:37:33 heh... source code... heh Feb 18 16:38:39 it's kinda sad to see OBS and not koji + bodhi being used ( ;) ) -- (koji is our build system; bodhi is our package qa tool... give karma to packages / updates!) Feb 18 16:39:54 * bva found the wiki userguide and has soem reading material now Feb 18 16:42:03 Cant wait for the first (affordable) mobile Meego device to come on the marked Feb 18 16:42:19 * CosmoHill rage quits a game Feb 18 16:42:25 I'm working with WM now (dont shoot) Feb 18 16:42:49 right, i'll be back in ~2h i guess. ttyl Feb 18 16:43:02 bb Feb 18 16:43:03 i'm a small guy just starting out and i get crushed :( Feb 18 16:43:08 CosmoHill: which game? Feb 18 16:43:12 Startopia Feb 18 16:43:20 never heard about that Feb 18 16:43:28 it's from 2001 iric Feb 18 16:43:30 iirc* Feb 18 16:43:39 yeah just looked it up Feb 18 16:43:42 looks like c&c Feb 18 16:43:44 only one game in the world :D *WoW* Feb 18 16:44:53 bva: Indeed... and the Gluon team is aiming at changing that ;) Feb 18 16:45:05 url? Feb 18 16:45:22 http://gluon.tuxfamily.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Gluon_Vision Feb 18 16:45:40 * RST38h moos Feb 18 16:46:26 Nah, we just kinda hope that people will like our little utopian idea :) Feb 18 16:46:40 * Jaffa finishes his first round of edits on http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who so anyone else feel free to go at it and I won't step on your toes (sorry bva!) Feb 18 16:46:43 leinir: I sure hope they succeed! Wine isn't all that :s Feb 18 16:46:54 bva: Indeed :) Feb 18 16:47:22 Jaffa: nicknames might help? Feb 18 16:47:23 * bva 's toe is crushed! :p hehe good job Jaffa! Feb 18 16:47:53 * Stskeeps goes edit the ones he knows Feb 18 16:47:59 Ohnoes, you toe-crushing madman! ;) Feb 18 16:48:05 * Maulkin waves Feb 18 16:50:53 Stskeeps: You can get 'em with a URL hover, but agreed. Feb 18 16:51:01 I'm done working so I'm off to home... see you later Feb 18 16:53:09 Stskeeps: I suspect dirkhh_ is on the TSG, but I've seen no confirmation apart from imad and valhalla Feb 18 16:53:42 Stskeeps: Perhaps the "Real name/Nick" format as used on http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group? Feb 18 16:54:03 maybe Feb 18 16:54:11 * Stskeeps edits Feb 18 16:54:37 mmh good idea. Feb 18 16:54:47 smirk Feb 18 16:54:48 I should add my nicks there too Feb 18 16:55:08 s/nicks/nick/ Feb 18 16:58:17 right, done editing :P Feb 18 16:59:08 Stskeeps: You've missed off the link to your meego.com account ;-) Feb 18 16:59:23 Interesting stats could be derived from that http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group page Feb 18 16:59:39 slaine_: as in? Feb 18 16:59:53 how many nokia, intel, meego, moblin, 3rd party ppl? Feb 18 17:01:27 you know i described how to change font size in a website Feb 18 17:01:36 Jaffa: maybe now we can have http://djangopeople.net/ Feb 18 17:01:41 does that have a technical term? Feb 18 17:02:33 "select text size javascript" Feb 18 17:02:41 seems to be digested by google properly Feb 18 17:03:11 http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/12/allow-site-visitors-to-change-font.html Feb 18 17:03:14 this seems good Feb 18 17:09:03 Stskeeps: http://meego.com/users/margie suggested a different nick FWIW Feb 18 17:09:50 Jaffa: hm, she didn't use 'margie' the other day so Feb 18 17:11:43 yay Feb 18 17:11:47 i wrote some javascript :) Feb 18 17:11:52 .... Feb 18 17:11:55 no i feel dirty Feb 18 17:11:57 now*& Feb 18 17:12:46 Jaffa: she gave me a different nick when i contacted here Feb 18 17:14:10 thanks for the hints / help guys :) Feb 18 17:35:47 no need to be embarrassed about javascript, it's the new cool thing Feb 18 17:36:03 holywar #12111 Feb 18 17:44:16 commute time, catch you lot later Feb 18 17:44:47 Hi All! Feb 18 17:45:10 Any hope about MeeGo on BeagleBoard? Feb 18 17:45:38 anunakin: i hope if it's open source and you bring your own engineers, you can make it work :) Feb 18 17:45:53 but, some version(s) of maemo ran on BeagleBoard ... Feb 18 17:46:30 :( Feb 18 17:48:08 anunakin: what kind of answer did you want? Feb 18 17:49:08 it's not like there are any source repositories on meego.com today :) Feb 18 17:50:12 hehe Feb 18 17:50:25 ok thanks Feb 18 17:50:38 timeless_mbp: On time! right Feb 18 18:11:49 Janne Feb 18 18:24:03 hey arjan Feb 18 18:53:24 Hi all Feb 18 18:53:41 hello Feb 18 18:53:46 'lo :) Feb 18 18:53:58 wow, it's been quiet in here the last couple of hours! :) Feb 18 18:54:04 Nokia said some tim before, that UI for new Symbian and Maemo 6 will be the same. These plans are not true anymore since merging with Moblin? Feb 18 18:54:27 sh0gun: That's an odd statement... Feb 18 18:54:46 Wait, are you sure they did not mean that the same framework can be used to create applications for both? Feb 18 18:54:55 Rather than the UI actually being the same... Feb 18 18:55:14 Nokia intends to use two different qt based frameworks for maemo and symbian Feb 18 18:55:16 sure that framework, but I'm pretty sure that I read about UI too Feb 18 18:55:21 let me find it again Feb 18 18:55:52 Hmm... i'd be interested in seeing that, as i'm pretty sure that's a bit of a dud statement (smartphones and mobile computers are, after all, not the same thing...) Feb 18 18:56:09 leinir: talk.maemo.org Feb 18 18:56:18 RST38h: thanks :) Feb 18 18:56:43 but that's a slightly imprecise position ;) Feb 18 18:57:54 hmm, ok lets say that it was in dream :D.... anyway, Nokia just released Maemo 6 UI couple of days ago, seems that they put a lot of work into it, is it going to be used in MeeGo? Feb 18 18:57:58 oh crap, that's right, i have homework for tomorrow Feb 18 18:59:31 Or what do they plan? Different UI's for netbook MeeGo and mobile MeeGo? Feb 18 19:00:06 different ones sh0gun Feb 18 19:00:10 because I have seen UI of Maemo 6 and it doesn't look very nice, Moblin seems far nicer for me Feb 18 19:00:10 at least, according to the architecture page. Feb 18 19:00:11 aha Feb 18 19:00:48 so it is highly possible that MeeGo will continue in Maemo 6 UI? Feb 18 19:01:03 It will probably be Maemo6 UI Feb 18 19:01:13 With some additions from Moblin Feb 18 19:01:22 good Feb 18 19:01:23 based on the fact that Moblin adopts Qt Feb 18 19:01:37 and that it has been using Nokia's Hildon all along Feb 18 19:03:41 hildon? Feb 18 19:04:05 will meego support a wider range of x86 devices than moblin currently does? Feb 18 19:04:25 and other chipsets / graphics cards like nvidia? Feb 18 19:05:47 hmm... i suppose that depends on who rolls the distribution. For example, the ubuntu moblin supported nvidia etc Feb 18 19:06:00 moblin vanilla didn't tho Feb 18 19:06:23 ubuntu moblin? Feb 18 19:06:33 you mean their netbook edition? Feb 18 19:06:37 yes, ubuntu moblin remix Feb 18 19:06:41 ah Feb 18 19:06:46 well, they have a netbook remix and a moblin remix Feb 18 19:07:04 i might give the mobin remix a go Feb 18 19:07:06 ubuntu is unbuntu and moblin moblin isn't it? Feb 18 19:07:16 no point doing the ubuntu one cos I might as well use the full version Feb 18 19:07:19 not same projest? Feb 18 19:07:22 this it's a laptop i have, not a betbook Feb 18 19:07:53 koupsa: maybe ubuntu mobin remix is like what centOS is to redhat Feb 18 19:08:21 not really Feb 18 19:08:32 ubuntu moblin is ubuntu's core with moblin UI on top Feb 18 19:08:39 it's not just a rebranded version of moblin Feb 18 19:08:55 Hmmm. Have the mailing lists now died completely or did all the RPM/deb discussions die out? Feb 18 19:09:07 ubuntu literally deb packaged up moblin packages for their own distro Feb 18 19:09:09 Jaffa: i hope for the latter Feb 18 19:09:23 * CosmoHill jumps on Jaffa Feb 18 19:11:09 Jaffa, if you like we can argue about that here as well (again) :D Feb 18 19:12:00 No, it's OK. Feb 18 19:12:09 tripz0: i might have to give that a go Feb 18 19:12:14 It's obvious we should use ZeroInstall, anyway. Feb 18 19:12:25 Anything else is just stupids. Duh. Feb 18 19:12:47 CosmoHill, i hope it fairs for you better than it did for me. I found stability an issue on my dell 1012 netbook Feb 18 19:12:59 ended up just installing vanilla ubuntu Feb 18 19:13:22 i can find the ubuntu netbook remix Feb 18 19:13:30 but not the moblin one Feb 18 19:13:37 2 secs Feb 18 19:13:58 iirc, it was a pain to find Feb 18 19:14:02 Jaffa, I want something like symbian, where we've to accept 5+ notifications when the packages aren't signed ;) Feb 18 19:14:18 http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile Feb 18 19:14:18 ? Feb 18 19:14:23 Jaffa: 'big corp vps' btw? Feb 18 19:14:47 CosmoHill, http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/ Feb 18 19:14:59 Stskeeps: As in "vice presidents". US companies hand that title out like sweets Feb 18 19:15:01 at the moment my laptop has windows 7, lfs and clfs Feb 18 19:15:27 merci Feb 18 19:17:46 it's weird that my best computer is probably used the least Feb 18 19:21:15 bye all Feb 18 19:36:04 btw how long has this channel been logged? Feb 18 19:36:34 yesterday i guess Feb 18 19:45:58 http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7105/linuxreiserqe4.jpg Feb 18 19:46:03 CosmoHill: you could follow the link from the channel topic and see for yourself :) Feb 18 19:46:07 tripz0: can I copy the moblin ubuntu reminx to SD card? Feb 18 19:46:31 chickengeorge_n: in english? Feb 18 19:47:06 ReiserFS: Use it or you will be dead. /// this was the last words that Hans Reiser said to his wife Feb 18 19:47:17 this picture is hans reiser Feb 18 19:48:30 this is unhelpful Feb 18 19:48:39 :( Feb 18 19:48:41 sad Feb 18 19:48:50 Is Hans Reiser dead already? Feb 18 19:48:58 no, but his wife Feb 18 19:49:19 cause she did not want to use his filesystem he killed her Feb 18 19:49:20 :( Feb 18 19:49:21 Weird then: he obviously has no chance to use his fs, but he is still alive Feb 18 19:49:29 and cause of this i made this picture Feb 18 19:49:42 maybe he programm it in jail Feb 18 19:50:04 tragedy Feb 18 19:50:06 or he is forced into pain in jail and forced to use ntfs-fs there :) Feb 18 19:50:08 yes Feb 18 19:50:12 * RST38h yawns Feb 18 19:50:17 its crazy Feb 18 19:50:50 doesn't his company still work on the FS? Feb 18 19:51:31 Namesys considers ReiserFS (now occasionally referred to as Reiser3) stable and feature-complete and, with the exception of security updates and critical bug fixes, has thus ceased development on it to concentrate on its successor, Reiser4. Feb 18 19:51:54 seems so Feb 18 19:52:10 Some autistic schmuck kills his mail-order wife and somehow it is a tragedy Feb 18 19:52:48 A mild amusement, at most, hardly a tragedy Feb 18 19:53:27 #yes a mixture of both Feb 18 19:53:33 * vmlemon_ wonders if anyone's likely to buy the Puma Phone (outside of the folks here, of course)... Feb 18 19:54:01 it's a persistent source of laughs at places like slashdot, but it's interesting to see how much tech technically "dies" by occurences like this Feb 18 19:54:09 name is stained Feb 18 19:54:41 puma phone? Feb 18 19:54:41 at some point people were waiting for reiser4 like the next coming Feb 18 19:54:43 http://www.pumaphone.com/ Feb 18 19:54:44 :) Feb 18 19:54:46 lolo Feb 18 19:54:48 http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/02/16/puma-phone-hands-on-photo-fest Feb 18 19:55:09 Hans had NPD, not autism. Feb 18 19:55:19 NPD? Feb 18 19:55:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder Feb 18 19:55:31 this nationalsocialist party? Feb 18 19:55:36 aah Feb 18 19:55:38 #i see Feb 18 19:56:12 Heh, I like this bit of Engrish on the Samsung Wave site - "Wave is delight. Bada platform and Samsung Apps is an array of pure fun and joy!" Feb 18 19:56:15 i keep thinking of Jaguar Feb 18 19:56:24 * vmlemon_ seriously doubts that it'll live up to that Feb 18 19:56:40 jrayhawk: Even worse, as it can hardly be caled a medical condition Feb 18 19:56:42 oh it is made by the sports cloths people Feb 18 19:57:24 Psychological disorders aren't medical conditions? Feb 18 19:57:27 Makes about as much sense as the Prada Phone, or the Vertu crap from Nokia Feb 18 19:57:38 oh and there website is pretty much unuseable Feb 18 19:58:01 (Series 40 handsets without colour displays or basic functionality in gaudy cases, at excessively high prices!) Feb 18 20:00:04 samsung serene Feb 18 20:00:41 Or the SEMC Xperia Pureness Feb 18 20:00:48 Now that's pointless Feb 18 20:01:02 :) Feb 18 20:01:07 jrayhawk: Outside of the US, usually no Feb 18 20:01:29 Haha, http://ideas.symbian.org/Idea/View?ideaid=5228 Feb 18 20:01:47 * vmlemon_ is constantly amused by some of the crap that people post there Feb 18 20:02:25 vmlemon: Have they started proposing perpetual motion engines already? Feb 18 20:03:21 Nah, just some idiot that wants a "bomb detection device" that wastes battery power and racks up data charges for the user to do nothing but send data constantly, without even telling the user Feb 18 20:03:31 what it's doing Feb 18 20:04:10 I've sometimes thought that a phone with snap-out blade could be a hit Feb 18 20:04:17 A literal RAZR... Feb 18 20:04:36 Shame that Motorola never ran with that idea ;) Feb 18 20:04:45 it would of course have camouflage covers Feb 18 20:04:58 :P villemv Feb 18 20:06:22 For scanning hardware, it should so small, that can fit in mobile device, device or hardware may be in nano technology or in any technology, and it should be small and tiny. it will need high efficiency nano technology Scanner or radar. Feb 18 20:06:26 does that stuff exist? Feb 18 20:06:48 Probably not Feb 18 20:07:03 """Army personnel is important and he fights on behalf us. Just like that, you are helping your country to protect your own people. Just using your mobile and without your notice.""" Feb 18 20:07:15 talk about not sticking with the implementation trivia... Feb 18 20:07:16 Spyware Feb 18 20:07:18 Literally Feb 18 20:07:25 Do. Not. Want. Feb 18 20:07:43 well, iPhone halfway fills that role as an explosive device Feb 18 20:07:52 Or anything with a Sony Li-Ion battery Feb 18 20:08:12 that is how i got a free battery replacement :) Feb 18 20:08:14 Still, @cdavieswashere and myself had a field day on Twitter with dissecting that crazy idea Feb 18 20:08:59 sow Feb 18 20:09:03 lol @ comments Feb 18 20:09:38 It's his only Idea too, which doesn't exactly give him credibility Feb 18 20:09:49 talk about "there's an app for that" Feb 18 20:09:52 "When our glorious overlords find their target, will they be sending in the black leather clad overwatch troopers or will they just douse the area in VX gas and call it a day?" Feb 18 20:10:36 There was someone else who was insistent that nobody down-ranked his shitty Idea too Feb 18 20:10:42 Of course, everyone did downrank it Feb 18 20:12:47 Heh, some folks wanted to rename both the Platform and the Foundation too, ignoring the fact that there's been heavy investment in rebranding it, already Feb 18 20:12:53 That was shot down, too Feb 18 20:14:52 evening kathy :) Feb 18 20:15:13 Evening Stskeeps Feb 18 20:15:22 how's it going? Feb 18 20:15:25 kathy :) Feb 18 20:16:22 "I do not about gray market, Just  I am thinking about safety or crucial information that police should know. Its our self responsibility to help them, because they keep us safe." - More LOLs Feb 18 20:16:23 evening Suurorca Feb 18 20:16:28 Bit flat tonight Feb 18 20:16:59 RevdKathy: that's a good thing given the last few days onslaught :) Feb 18 20:17:06 RevdKathy: is the Revd supposed to stand for revered or reverend? Feb 18 20:17:11 RevdKathy: think everyone is exhausted after these days Feb 18 20:17:30 I think not getting the update makes me just feel that somehow it's all a bit irrelevent Feb 18 20:17:45 reverend, th0br0. Methodist Feb 18 20:17:49 ah ok :) Feb 18 20:17:53 RevdKathy: you're on vodafone or how was it? Feb 18 20:17:58 or just general UK Feb 18 20:18:09 no, just general UK - 90% didn't get it Feb 18 20:18:28 yeah, it's kinda weird it didn't Feb 18 20:18:36 Yo timeless_hbp Feb 18 20:18:42 I'll file an idea about anomaly detector Feb 18 20:18:48 heya timeless Feb 18 20:19:01 strange garbled message via someone's call to custy support that 'they know' Feb 18 20:19:02 something phone hw can do Feb 18 20:19:11 villemv: haha, find some way to optimize the compass's in the various symbian phones so that you can detect magnetic fluctuations!? Feb 18 20:19:56 not sure about exact algorihm. "they" will tell me when I sleep Feb 18 20:20:37 ""they""? Feb 18 20:20:38 hello Feb 18 20:20:50 * timeless_mbp is brancing into more channels Feb 18 20:20:54 voices, man Feb 18 20:20:54 :) timeless_mbp Feb 18 20:20:56 s/c/ch/ Feb 18 20:20:59 villemv: hell yes! Feb 18 20:21:12 i only haven't gotten them to actually reveal algorithms or code to me -- unfortunately. Feb 18 20:22:10 it's very subtle. some kind of scheme dialect Feb 18 20:22:28 RevdKathy: are you still a bit unsure about the whole situation btw? Feb 18 20:22:31 never learned scheme, although i know that they're learning it at one of the universities i'm close to Feb 18 20:22:38 timeless_mbp: hey Feb 18 20:22:44 looking at vbox now Feb 18 20:22:45 hi Feb 18 20:23:04 scheme is quite funny Feb 18 20:23:05 Stskeeps... deep down, yes. Trying to look enthusiastic. But we're losing a lot Feb 18 20:23:25 Stskeeps... that's just between us 417, isn't it? Feb 18 20:23:53 RevdKathy: we're losing some but also gaining a lot - we're getting something in a very short timeframe we'd first be getting in the very long term Feb 18 20:24:14 if we were to go in the traditional iterative pace Feb 18 20:24:19 villemv: but it's a good idea... i should get 'em to tell me code. that'd be awesome. Feb 18 20:24:29 for the OS, yes. Maybe less for the devices and the community. Huge gain for the OS Feb 18 20:24:37 what was the record? Feb 18 20:24:57 RevdKathy: from a developer point of view, it was a huge benefit to have many different device communities work together Feb 18 20:25:05 This is thoughtful: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=535152&postcount=79 Feb 18 20:25:11 as we had more in common than we were different Feb 18 20:25:20 perhaps asking on meego-dev will help find likeminded people Feb 18 20:25:30 I think it's probably good for the developers - I hope so. In the end they're the drivers Feb 18 20:25:36 villemv, Hi, long time no see... :) Feb 18 20:25:47 I'd love to have some real interaction with the moblin people Feb 18 20:26:00 RevdKathy: i just spent an hour speaking w/ a moblin person Feb 18 20:26:11 right now, they run the infrastructure but they're invisible to us end-users Feb 18 20:26:13 polac: uiq? Feb 18 20:26:37 tthat's good. timeless_mbp. Was it helpful? Feb 18 20:26:50 RevdKathy: what kind of interaction do you want? Feb 18 20:26:51 RevdKathy: my biggest worry until this morning was that this was a corporate run project without community in mind, until you end up talking to one of the 'dictators' (we need a better word) Feb 18 20:26:57 RevdKathy: well, it's a start Feb 18 20:27:10 RevdKathy: and we are starting to try and help the communication through a who's who as well Feb 18 20:27:13 RevdKathy: I may count as a moblin person ;) Feb 18 20:27:19 this is more about building relations than about anything else Feb 18 20:27:19 polac: or am I stealing someone's nick? Feb 18 20:27:24 (being someone who works on moblin and does a lot of the os level stuff) Feb 18 20:27:27 RevdKathy: http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who Feb 18 20:27:28 villemv, what does uiq mean? Like symbian uiq? Feb 18 20:27:33 Really? Hello arjan. May I shake your hand? (virtually) Feb 18 20:27:33 slaine_: lemme know if there's anything to know Feb 18 20:27:40 RevdKathy: sure Feb 18 20:27:41 i'm cloning moblin atm Feb 18 20:27:56 polac: for a moment I was thinking whether you were one of the guys who worked at uiq. apparently not :-) Feb 18 20:27:57 villemv, no you are not. You probably just do not remember me anymore. Feb 18 20:28:00 RevdKathy: if you have a set of questions we may want to do /msg since this is a busy channel Feb 18 20:28:06 otherwise here is fine too with me Feb 18 20:28:17 polac: I have only been using this nick for a few weeks actually Feb 18 20:28:27 polac: so perhasp I am? Feb 18 20:28:38 in light of "long time no see" :-) Feb 18 20:28:41 we found him! Start the fire! Feb 18 20:28:42 :D Feb 18 20:28:47 :P Feb 18 20:28:51 burn the impostor Feb 18 20:29:01 Not really, arjan - it's more about just 'hanging out' - the community at maemo.org does that as well as actual business stuff Feb 18 20:29:07 it builds community Feb 18 20:29:19 there's a bunch of us here Feb 18 20:29:34 * RevdKathy shakes hands with any available moblin peoples Feb 18 20:29:56 arjan: you can save your soul by giving us the list with the names :P Feb 18 20:29:59 situation is a bit comparable to that of meeting people in a totally dark room, you know they might be there, but you're not sure who's who and where :) Feb 18 20:30:11 BOO Feb 18 20:30:24 * timeless_mbp grumbles Feb 18 20:30:48 Stskeeps: lets keep darkrooms out of this.. the mental picture is a bit... not what I want to think of right now ;) Feb 18 20:30:59 wazd: I see Anaz and auke here for example Feb 18 20:31:01 Or even just a very big corporate event. Unless everyone is wearing name badges, you're lost Feb 18 20:31:08 wazd: in terms if "A's" in the nic list Feb 18 20:31:23 cworth Feb 18 20:31:28 cwong Feb 18 20:31:44 well there's a whole bunch more, no point naming them all I suspect.... ;) Feb 18 20:31:58 so you guys are Mobline devs? Feb 18 20:32:09 we also are timezone distributed; bunch of are in the UK, I and others are US westcoast Feb 18 20:32:12 Stskeeps: especially as not everyone's got a cloak. Feb 18 20:32:12 RevdKathy: yes Feb 18 20:32:19 :-) Feb 18 20:32:34 'lo suihkulokki Feb 18 20:32:41 RevdKathy: I work on moblin a lot, mostly overall architecture, boot time, performance, power management but well all over the map in practice Feb 18 20:32:45 You don't have ordinary end users, though do you. Our community has a lot of us (for good and ill!) Feb 18 20:32:47 th0br0: i registered for a group on freenode Feb 18 20:32:53 for meego? Feb 18 20:32:56 th0br0: aye Feb 18 20:33:07 can you do that? don't you normally have to supply them with far more information? Feb 18 20:33:07 RevdKathy: it's more a corporate kind of community... so I think moblin and maemo are nicely complementary Feb 18 20:33:23 th0br0: well, the community isn't exactly built up atm. Feb 18 20:33:27 How to the moblin peole feel about us spartan hordes? We're very noisy Feb 18 20:33:27 i'm installing windows movie maker and i swear SQL server CE just went by on the install screen... Feb 18 20:33:32 * slaine_ jumps up and down Feb 18 20:33:36 I'm a Moblin user Feb 18 20:33:42 RevdKathy: I don't mind noisy from people who contribute :) Feb 18 20:33:42 me too Feb 18 20:33:45 Yeah, Stskeeps Feb 18 20:33:50 Ugh, that sounds like one of those crappy ads Feb 18 20:33:51 RevdKathy: you from meade? Feb 18 20:33:55 RevdKathy: I do mind noisy from people who never contribute anything but are only loud and annoying ;) Feb 18 20:33:58 (the non moblin one) Feb 18 20:34:06 arjan: ah, thank god I can talk loud then :D Feb 18 20:34:10 i should have just said nokia Feb 18 20:34:10 th0br0: but it's important to get these things started already as well, we're a big channel already, big community :) Feb 18 20:34:15 true. Feb 18 20:34:22 RevdKathy: it seems that on monday we had mostly the former; while saner minds are now here Feb 18 20:34:32 Thanks arjan - that's the distinction I make. Though sometimes people make quite a lot of noise before they get around to contributing Feb 18 20:34:44 Stskeeps: we should convince infobot to join us here :) Feb 18 20:34:49 RevdKathy: true; sometimes. but sometimes it's just to be loud. Feb 18 20:35:27 RevdKathy: I don't mind talking with loud people who are there to help/contribute/etc... I rather do not waste time with those who are just loud to be disruptive Feb 18 20:35:32 (like we had a lot on monday here) Feb 18 20:35:34 I'd love to be able to create a structure that would... quieten... the disruptors Feb 18 20:35:40 quite. Feb 18 20:35:46 not easy though Feb 18 20:35:54 I think a healthy debate is fine. Feb 18 20:36:01 well it seems the disruptors mostly have gone away now.... time solved that for us Feb 18 20:36:07 jeremiah_: oh absolutely. Feb 18 20:36:10 But we do like to have fun, too - there's a lot of playfulness at maemo.org Feb 18 20:36:11 :) Feb 18 20:36:27 we still have a few Feb 18 20:36:37 * RevdKathy counts on fingers the real pains Feb 18 20:36:40 a lot of the disruptors on monday i think were because with the announcement there were very few details Feb 18 20:36:41 I'm an engineer. for me, at the end of the day, it needs to come down to something tangible as outcome Feb 18 20:36:53 Its hard though, some of these things mean a lot for people Feb 18 20:36:56 true Clay... and we still haven't really got much Feb 18 20:36:58 People have a lot at stake. Feb 18 20:37:00 Clay: if we had many details we'd have gotten "you have done EVERYTHING behind closed doors" instead Feb 18 20:37:05 Clay: just cannot win Feb 18 20:37:09 :D Feb 18 20:37:15 th0br0/Clay: I may know many more details Feb 18 20:37:27 if you have specific questions/etc I'm happy to try to answer/explain/etc Feb 18 20:37:32 that's very true: the decisions that were taken people dont like, then they complain that there is no direction on other things Feb 18 20:37:32 well, there isn't really much that i want to know right now :) Feb 18 20:37:36 there are some issues I cannot talk about (NDA, busines stuff bla bla) Feb 18 20:37:41 but I'll let you know when that happens Feb 18 20:37:51 arjan: Are there plans for OBS? Feb 18 20:37:54 basically all my questions have been answered so far... rpm, yum, obs, no upstream... Feb 18 20:38:03 jeremiah_: as in "when will it go live" ? Feb 18 20:38:05 my only question would be :when do we see code or a running system? ;) Feb 18 20:38:11 arjan: maybe some would say that, but for the majority i dont think thats true. moblin has never really had a clear roadmap thats available to people outside the company Feb 18 20:38:13 but then, i guess it'll be soon anyway. Feb 18 20:38:17 arjan: I was thinking a bit more basic. :) Feb 18 20:38:18 my current guess is 2 weeks from now Feb 18 20:38:21 you forgot lsb Feb 18 20:38:27 lsb is important Feb 18 20:38:27 But I guess that answers my question Feb 18 20:38:32 arjan: there isn't as much transparency as an open project should have Feb 18 20:38:40 Clay: agreed. Feb 18 20:38:41 Clay: maybe that will come with time. Feb 18 20:38:52 Clay: What parts do you want open? Feb 18 20:38:52 a lot of moblin also has been rather pragmatic "lets get stuff done" more than 3 year plans Feb 18 20:38:57 (that then don't mean anything anyway) Feb 18 20:38:59 but yeah... right now, this community exists solely on basis of the webpage and the announcement Feb 18 20:39:02 Screw transparency, fill up the web site with content at least Feb 18 20:39:13 * cworth shakes hands back with RevdKathy Feb 18 20:39:15 RST38h: thats part of it Feb 18 20:39:23 Hi cworth :) Feb 18 20:39:29 so many questions, not many answers Feb 18 20:39:35 thus people making a rumble Feb 18 20:39:39 anyway in terms of roadmap... we want a release out in "Q2" (assume somewhere in May, but this is still in flux) Feb 18 20:39:42 Where are most of the mobline people, btw? Maemo tends to be very eurocentric Feb 18 20:39:54 RevdKathy: we have a group in the UK, and the rest is westcoast US Feb 18 20:39:56 you people mentioned helping and contributing to meego. Is there allready something bite size to start with? Or should beginner like me wait until the 'infrastructured' is properly build? Feb 18 20:40:01 arjan: release for what hardware? Feb 18 20:40:24 RST38h: x86 netbook for sure, arm/phone is more likeyl a developer kind of thing Feb 18 20:40:39 (eg there will be stuff like that, but it's a different level of maturity) Feb 18 20:40:42 arjan: So, no N900 version? Feb 18 20:40:56 RST38h: I doubt it'll work entirely perfect as a phone OS for n900 Feb 18 20:41:04 (because netbook version is kinda uninteresting, given Windows/Linux availability) Feb 18 20:41:12 RST38h: but that also depends on how much others want to contribute to make it happen for n900 Feb 18 20:41:18 arjan: so, i'm looking for someone who runs dns for meego.com Feb 18 20:41:25 arjan: even something at the scale of Mer would be nice Feb 18 20:41:43 arjan: we made a ofono dialing on Mer on n900, shouldn't be that far off :) Feb 18 20:41:47 timeless_mbp: I can get you in touch; msg me and I'll give you some email addresses Feb 18 20:42:04 RST38h/Stskeeps: this is also where we need your help ;) Feb 18 20:42:11 most of us moblin/intel guys don't tend to work on arm stuff Feb 18 20:42:19 what about the nokia guys? Feb 18 20:42:20 arjan: roughly i'd like to setup something like mxr.maemo.org Feb 18 20:42:22 for meego Feb 18 20:42:33 is Nokia participating in MeeGo development at all? Feb 18 20:42:35 th0br0: most of us nokia guys don't tend to work on intel stuff Feb 18 20:42:42 at the OS level I mean? Feb 18 20:42:44 RST38h: yes Feb 18 20:42:47 timeless_mbp: i was talking about the arm stuff Feb 18 20:42:58 RST38h: but there's that maemo6 distraction for them as well Feb 18 20:43:00 :) Feb 18 20:43:05 ah ok Feb 18 20:43:13 that explains it =) Feb 18 20:43:17 arjan: distraction ? :-) Feb 18 20:43:39 arjan: let's say instead that all the work done on Maemo6 will end up in MeeGo ;-) Feb 18 20:43:48 sure ;) Feb 18 20:44:06 but "next gen development" and "working on finishing a product" are different resource sinks Feb 18 20:44:10 pinchartl: Oh will it? Feb 18 20:44:10 pinchartl: very funny Feb 18 20:44:11 all OS vendors have that nice tension ;-) Feb 18 20:44:39 arjan: a silly question, is moblin/meego currently built for ARM as well? Feb 18 20:44:50 just wondering how big challenge things are atm Feb 18 20:44:53 RST38h: everybody hates working on code that will be thrown away for the next version of the product, so I certainly hope most of the code will be useful :-) Feb 18 20:45:03 Stskeeps: not quite to the level you may want Feb 18 20:45:15 pinchartl: "hope" or "know"? Feb 18 20:45:17 Stskeeps: but hopefully enough that you can start working on it ;) Feb 18 20:46:01 arjan: fair enough - the problem is really if we're going to spend months adding and patching the machine room or it's a matter of adding ARM support to imagers and so on Feb 18 20:46:04 Stskeeps: we kinda got Moblin 2.2 live cd to boot on a plain /dev/fb0, if it helps Feb 18 20:46:14 machine room being the base libraries :) Feb 18 20:46:19 Stskeeps: the cpu is still atom though Feb 18 20:46:34 RST38h: hope. Maemo6 is huge, I don't know what all of its parts will become in MeeGo Feb 18 20:47:03 hopefully you guys get X working Feb 18 20:47:06 without X it'll suck Feb 18 20:47:24 ah, if it's at that layer than no issue Feb 18 20:47:26 as I said, the Developer Edition boots on the plain frame buffer Feb 18 20:47:30 How does ARM handle the DRI2 layer ? Feb 18 20:47:35 is that available ? Feb 18 20:47:47 slaine_: welcome to the arm platform, where x86 sanity doesn't always exist :) Feb 18 20:47:51 hehe. Feb 18 20:48:01 that's up to the people providing the graphics driver Feb 18 20:48:01 Forget DRI2. Feb 18 20:48:03 you're more likely to have custom libGLES and so on Feb 18 20:48:12 so no kernel level drm for either then ? Feb 18 20:48:12 in this case that's more likely a question for a nokia guy, not for me Feb 18 20:48:14 and maybe a fbdev with SGX acceleration in some areas Feb 18 20:48:15 Stskeeps: packages might build on ARM, but integrating the platform-specific kernel drivers with the userspace software is complex and will take time Feb 18 20:48:25 arjan: That would be ImageTech and they do not normally provide shit Feb 18 20:48:55 ie. just like GMA500... Feb 18 20:48:56 slaine_: let me check Feb 18 20:49:04 arjan: Isn't the ARM side doomed because the gfx drivers are all closed? Moblin was always the newest kernel right? How is that going to work? Feb 18 20:49:09 suihkulokki: don't mention the war Feb 18 20:49:28 MelisU: noone says there can't be closed userland libs and open kernel drivers Feb 18 20:49:32 MelisU: powervr has no binary kerenl parts Feb 18 20:49:33 only X Feb 18 20:49:34 or even closed pieces in a MeeGo system Feb 18 20:49:34 afaik Feb 18 20:49:48 life is always easier if you have open drivers Feb 18 20:49:55 and personally, I'm happy for that Feb 18 20:49:57 slaine_: on the N900 at least there's not DRI2, and the userspace part is closed-source if I'm not mistaken Feb 18 20:50:04 slaine_: sorry, just joined, no idea of what previously have been flamed here Feb 18 20:50:25 suihkulokki: besides RPM vs DEB, not much ;) Feb 18 20:50:29 suihkulokki: was kinda joking, but gma500 makes me shudder Feb 18 20:50:43 unfortunately, it sounds just like where the n900 hardware is Feb 18 20:50:46 With powervr having the stronghold it has, I imagine the situation on ARM is pretty identical to the situation with x86 and gma500? Feb 18 20:50:50 pinchartl: the GLES libraries are closed source yes, but not xserver-xorg-video-fbdev Feb 18 20:50:51 yeah Feb 18 20:51:16 infact, didn't imagatech provide the 3d core for the gma500 too ? Feb 18 20:51:18 Stskeeps: with GLES it's a bit pointless, isn't it ? Feb 18 20:51:21 Stskeeps: OK, but those binary parts need to keep up with the kernel and X .. that usually doesn't work so well Feb 18 20:51:25 Stskeeps: I expected that, that is why no joining earlier ;) Feb 18 20:51:40 MelisU: which is exactly where pulsbo failed Feb 18 20:51:41 MelisU: actually it works kinda well if you don't toy around with switches Feb 18 20:51:43 MelisU, at the moment I think the missing touchscreen kernel in newer kernels is a bigger issue :D Feb 18 20:51:45 MelisU: that'll depend on Nokia Feb 18 20:51:59 (just like gma500 depends on intel) Feb 18 20:52:07 to get the powervr driver open sourced we need to push hard enough. maybe the joint Nokia-Intel effort will have more influence than Nokia alone Feb 18 20:52:22 You will not get powervr driver open sourced. Feb 18 20:52:24 Or intel alone Feb 18 20:52:30 forget it Feb 18 20:52:33 but yes, Nokia being 'the good hw vendor' in MeeGo will be interesting to see if happens Feb 18 20:52:53 (yes, i know imgtec is another company, but for other parts of the system, battery management, etc) Feb 18 20:53:01 lol, it's good cop bad cop now is it Feb 18 20:53:26 slaine_: it's always been good cop bad cop, but inside a single company until now Feb 18 20:53:29 my personal goal is to make the intel side play as well as we can (and gma500 is "lalalalalala I can't hear you" '=) Feb 18 20:53:46 rofl Feb 18 20:53:49 and hopefully hw vendors realize that playing nice with meego in that regard is in their own business interest Feb 18 20:54:01 .o( we could just all buy imagenation stock until we have enough voting power together to force them to opensource the driver ) Feb 18 20:54:03 +1 Feb 18 20:54:03 not imagetech, I guess Feb 18 20:54:19 gma500: Intel was young and needed the money :P Feb 18 20:54:24 lol Feb 18 20:54:31 arjan: it will be easier for Intel, as the same company develops the OS and the GPU. on the powervr side we'll have much more troubles Feb 18 20:55:02 I don't that powervr stuff was isolated to the gma500 though Feb 18 20:55:20 isn't there a new generation gpu with the same licensing issues ? Feb 18 20:55:46 slaine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA Feb 18 20:55:53 * timeless_mbp sighs Feb 18 20:55:53 pinchartl: you have no idea how much pain pvr gives me day to day... Feb 18 20:55:59 my computer ran out of space Feb 18 20:56:11 timeless_mbp: you actually work for nokia? i only know you from your rants in #jsapi Feb 18 20:56:16 pinchartl: all the more reason to show how easy it COULD be ;) Feb 18 20:56:22 MisterN: yes Feb 18 20:56:28 slaine: I guess you mean GMA3150 Feb 18 20:56:30 i haven't always worked for nokia Feb 18 20:56:50 moblin+maemo=meego thing piqued my interest in meego, which amusingly makes me far less interested in the Nokia Booklet 3g (gma500) :D Feb 18 20:58:03 ah, nice - quim just said they're bringing core and middleware people to meego Feb 18 20:58:24 yeah, Meego may have a lot of rough edges for some time, but I think it will be worth it and people will be interested Feb 18 20:58:28 Stskeeps: Nicely :) Feb 18 20:59:19 RST38h: yeah, possbily, I find the naming hard to penetrate Feb 18 20:59:42 slaine: The wiki page makes it kinda clear Feb 18 20:59:42 Moblin was seen as Intel and Maemo as Nokia .. Now they should get all the Genivi guys on the homepage (like BMW etc). That would help even more Feb 18 20:59:58 BMW joins the Linux Foundation would be a cool headline Feb 18 21:00:14 the booklet (capabilities aside) is quite nice, actually Feb 18 21:00:25 toyed with one for a few minutes today Feb 18 21:03:00 I've got too many kids hanging out of me to read it properly now RST38h Feb 18 21:03:09 bed times, bbs Feb 18 21:03:14 but obviously more or a mac-ish fashion accessory than direct competition for the cheaper netbooks Feb 18 21:03:22 nights Feb 18 21:14:32 I'm out, bye everyone. Feb 18 21:15:04 cyas Feb 18 21:20:09 back Feb 18 21:20:16 front Feb 18 21:20:31 RST38h: No, the 3150 isn't it, that's the embedded gfx in the latest CPU's Feb 18 21:20:44 with is basically a 965 Feb 18 21:20:48 s/with/which Feb 18 21:27:30 is meego ok with GPL3 gcc versions btw? Feb 18 21:28:10 villemv_fake: gcc isn't traditionally shipped on devices though? but yes, this policy is going to hurt at times :P Feb 18 21:28:12 * villemv_fake is hoping to "some day" see c++0x Feb 18 21:28:32 Stskeeps: apple has an issue with that. I don't think that makes any sense either Feb 18 21:28:50 Stskeeps: obviously I mean "using gpl3 for build tools" Feb 18 21:29:06 villemv_fake: i think they want to see more cases related to gpl3 and how it's interpreted Feb 18 21:29:12 company cautiousness Feb 18 21:29:43 so does the same thing apply for meego then? Feb 18 21:30:28 deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb Feb 18 21:30:35 rpm rpm rpm rpm Feb 18 21:30:48 :D Feb 18 21:30:52 virgins you say? Feb 18 21:31:19 oh crap, my laptop is 68'C Feb 18 21:31:23 well, I thought the whole rpm v deb discussion was pretty moot Feb 18 21:31:38 CosmoHill: 68 minutes? Feb 18 21:31:47 ? Feb 18 21:31:56 " is seconds, ' is minutes... Feb 18 21:32:03 deb? or rpm? Feb 18 21:32:18 villemv_fake: there's a policy stated somewhere about licensing regarding gplv3 Feb 18 21:32:24 degrees Celsius Feb 18 21:32:31 Kelvin! Feb 18 21:32:43 CosmoHill: there's no apostrophe in the celsius notation ;) Feb 18 21:32:58 deb? or rpm? Feb 18 21:33:07 well i can't be botherd to learn the degree button Feb 18 21:33:26 CosmoHill: that's my point, the English keyboard doesn't have it, so just don't use it Feb 18 21:33:28 CosmoHill: on my desktop it's o o :) Feb 18 21:33:29 detective_: go read the logs, there's plenty of discussions in this area :) Feb 18 21:33:42 Stskeeps: and what are the results? Feb 18 21:33:45 CosmoHill: -40°F = -40°C Feb 18 21:33:47 ˙ Feb 18 21:33:52 detective_: no results Feb 18 21:33:53 (yes, english keyboard) Feb 18 21:33:55 alt + h Feb 18 21:33:55 detective_: only trouble Feb 18 21:34:00 mh : / Feb 18 21:34:26 CosmoHill: not really the right one Feb 18 21:34:36 Hydroxide: if you find it for my mac, yell Feb 18 21:34:44 and which packagemanager will be choosen? zypper or yum or what? Feb 18 21:34:56 detective_: please go read the logs Feb 18 21:35:04 detective_: and don't try starting another flamewar here, thanks Feb 18 21:35:16 uhm... okay o_O Feb 18 21:35:25 if that why we have a logger? so we don't have to answer the rpm vs deb debate every 30 mins? Feb 18 21:35:26 detective_: i -think- zypper but don't hang me up on that Feb 18 21:35:46 CosmoHill: we should have had one from minute zero in this channel, to document early discussions Feb 18 21:35:48 Stskeeps: okay thanks Feb 18 21:35:51 Stskeeps: we'll hang you for anything Feb 18 21:36:05 Stskeeps: well we have one now Feb 18 21:36:30 CosmoHill: yes, thank god :P Feb 18 21:46:03 this is the stuff we want meego on (now android): http://notionink.in/index.php Feb 18 21:47:10 * CosmoHill can see this happening Feb 18 21:47:13 I love adam! Feb 18 21:47:33 the table computer i mean... Feb 18 21:47:47 right. It's happening all over the place now Feb 18 21:48:41 that would be cool Feb 18 21:51:33 ooo, matte screen Feb 18 21:52:02 adam actually looks pretty nice Feb 18 21:52:10 1080p Feb 18 21:52:16 hdmi output Feb 18 21:56:50 can't imagine a better way to vacuum some VC money than promising to deliver a table this year ;-) Feb 18 21:57:19 VC? Feb 18 21:57:35 venture capital Feb 18 21:57:43 ah Feb 18 21:57:46 MSI also had an nvidia tegra based tablet shown off at CES. not to many ever saw it though Feb 18 21:57:54 that reminds me, i need to find my business study books Feb 18 21:58:05 My understanding is that moblin used OBS for building and that is what meego will use. Anyone know if their build machine runs fedora, suse, centos, etc? Which? Feb 18 21:58:29 arjan knows Feb 18 21:58:36 hey jebba Feb 18 21:58:40 heya :) Feb 18 21:58:46 arjan knows everything, methinks ;) Feb 18 21:58:48 i think it's fedora or ubuntu Feb 18 21:58:54 my bet is fedora Feb 18 21:58:57 it's true Feb 18 21:59:05 CosmoHill: would likely be fedora then, because there aren't ubuntu packages for OBS... Feb 18 21:59:10 the part about arjan knowing everything, that is Feb 18 21:59:21 what is the build enviroment? i think i might be able to do it with clfs Feb 18 21:59:23 i don't doubt it Feb 18 21:59:24 I looked into it a few weeks ago and it seems upstream just packaged for opensuse and centos. Feb 18 21:59:48 clfs? Feb 18 22:00:09 www.cross-lfs.org Feb 18 22:00:24 to clarify: I was looking into setting up an OBS server, and when I looked into it, they seemed to make it most convenient to set up a server if you were running opensuse or centos. Feb 18 22:00:53 I've been looking to source a Tegra box for use as a SetTopBox, anyone got any pointers ? Feb 18 22:01:10 ah, CLFS would likely be able to do it, but unlikely to be a choice for everyone.... Feb 18 22:01:22 this would be for a commercial endeavor Feb 18 22:01:46 running meego? Feb 18 22:01:49 jebba: i might give it a go and make a copy of the finished system Feb 18 22:02:39 jebba: given that Novell have worked closely with Intel on this, I'd guess it's running SuSe Feb 18 22:03:07 * tripz0 votes it's running moblin Feb 18 22:04:07 slaine_: it's officially SUSE now Feb 18 22:04:26 I just can't keep up Feb 18 22:05:01 it used to be SuSE, which stood for "Software- und System-Entwicklungsgesellschaft mbH" Feb 18 22:06:35 such a sweet language Feb 18 22:07:08 language of romance Feb 18 22:10:55 i did see zypper in there Feb 18 22:11:00 not that would guarantee anything Feb 18 22:11:06 zypper is great Feb 18 22:14:42 i wonder how many of the people here are just idle Feb 18 22:14:43 or asleep Feb 18 22:15:28 328 Feb 18 22:15:36 n-3 Feb 18 22:15:52 i'm always idle Feb 18 22:16:10 to me a big channel is 40 ~ 50 people Feb 18 22:16:49 things seemed to have calmed down alot here over the last few days, compared to announcement day. Feb 18 22:16:54 CosmoHill: a big channel is 500+ people :) Feb 18 22:17:03 i've been a lurker at maemo for a few years Feb 18 22:17:03 :o Feb 18 22:17:13 CosmoHill: like #haskell Feb 18 22:17:29 662 people... Feb 18 22:17:35 * CosmoHill faints Feb 18 22:17:46 would that be all the people who use that language? Feb 18 22:18:02 yeah i guess everybody who uses haskell is in #haskell :D Feb 18 22:18:08 lol. wonder if #modula2 has that many Feb 18 22:19:44 are/were there many non-Intel people working on moblin? Feb 18 22:20:07 fnordianslip: no. Feb 18 22:20:51 do you think more non-intel and non-nokia people will be working on meego Feb 18 22:20:52 ? Feb 18 22:22:23 it depends whether you count people working on upstream projects Feb 18 22:22:33 upstream? Feb 18 22:22:54 do you count all kernel developers as "working on moblin?" if so then there's a huge number of not intel and nokia people Feb 18 22:23:13 ah Feb 18 22:23:24 no i wouldn't count them Feb 18 22:23:46 <_macros> Hi chat Feb 18 22:23:56 hey _macros Feb 18 22:25:17 CosmoHill: not only that but intel and nokia developers work on upstream projects like the kernel as well. do you count them as working on moblin? Feb 18 22:25:42 hmm Feb 18 22:25:43 yes, i would Feb 18 22:25:45 s/moblin/meego/ Feb 18 22:25:52 i think if there is a compelling release that shows meego as a compelling platform, 3rd party developers may develop for it Feb 18 22:26:21 i was thinking mostly of 'outsiders' working on the meego core? Feb 18 22:26:23 I'm from cross-lfs so this is new to me Feb 18 22:26:36 tripz0: i agree. a lot will depend on how meego-1.0 works out. Feb 18 22:27:25 that's the non-Maemo6 meego-1.0 is it? Feb 18 22:27:26 i can't see it making a big difference. meego might help Qt adoption but if i was going to write a project using Qt it write it so it ran anywhere, not just meego Feb 18 22:27:48 and Qt stands on it's own anyway, i think Feb 18 22:27:57 for convenience Feb 18 22:28:07 i'd happily exclude people working upstream as working on a project Feb 18 22:28:19 roughly that means, as a Nokian working on Mozilla for Maemo Feb 18 22:28:32 i shouldn't be counting as working on Maemo when i work on Mozilla Feb 18 22:28:40 i'm working on Maemo when i do community building Feb 18 22:28:51 or manage bugs filed against the Maemo delivered browser Feb 18 22:28:53 that is what i meant Feb 18 22:29:00 or sigh Feb 18 22:29:01 but when i work upstream, i'm working upstream and that shouldn't be counted Feb 18 22:29:04 i think Feb 18 22:29:41 like if i where to work on mozilla i wouldn;t count that as working on clfs Feb 18 22:30:01 but if i was doing a clfs built and had to patch some of the packages, i;d count that as working on clfs Feb 18 22:30:12 right Feb 18 22:30:15 even tho I;ve written patches for other projects Feb 18 22:31:12 speaking of which, i need to fix silo again Feb 18 22:34:27 <_macros> ali1234, I do not read the whole chat log, so sorry if i am OT, but from an app developer point of view I think meego is a bit more than Qt: e.g. ui framework, api to access gsm part (maybe based on the shiny Moblin ofono) Feb 18 22:34:57 _macros: well, "api to access gsm" = ofono, another upstream project Feb 18 22:35:05 fnordianslip: i don't know if anyone knows what meego-1.0 really means, but i meant: the degree of non-Nokia/non-Intel direct participation in meego will depend on what is released. if it's good, i think it will start attracting attention and contributions. Feb 18 22:35:14 and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway Feb 18 22:35:29 <_macros> (And sorry for my chat-writing style' i'm writing with my n900 ;) Feb 18 22:35:39 or if you do there would be #ifdef in there a lot Feb 18 22:36:07 da4089: thanks for clarifying. lets hope its good :) Feb 18 22:36:32 I'm on a macbook pro, so you'll have to excuse the odd missing character Feb 18 22:37:49 <_macros> (23:38:12) ali1234: and, if i want my Qt app to be portable, which i do, i won;t use any meego specific stuff anyway -- i agree on this Feb 18 22:39:21 really though, i don't think there will be anything which is specific to meego Feb 18 22:39:41 if there is, and it is actually good, it will be ported to all other distros soon enough Feb 18 22:39:59 and therefore will become an upstream project by default Feb 18 22:42:16 <_macros> I think this is a good thing, isn't it? Probably i did not catch the point Feb 18 22:43:44 yes, it is a good thing Feb 18 22:46:34 * CosmoHill slaps his mac Feb 18 22:46:49 stupid thing is backing up to the hard drive and indexing the hard drive at the same time Feb 18 22:52:39 <_macros> :) Feb 18 22:53:04 probably took longer and made it over heat Feb 18 23:19:07 intresting, my laptop hung when booting cos of the external hard drive Feb 18 23:21:15 * auke sighs, heavily Feb 18 23:22:20 auke: what's up? Feb 18 23:22:37 my pc also hung because of external hard drive and i solved it with UUIDs in /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst Feb 18 23:23:06 mine got past grub2 Feb 18 23:23:12 hung at the windows part Feb 18 23:24:52 my new laptop only has USB 2.0 Feb 18 23:25:07 my powerbook has USB 2.0, FW400 and FW800 Feb 18 23:25:37 new laptop also has esata but the extnernal hard drive doesn't :( Feb 18 23:25:54 CosmoHill: apparently I'm a rude person, and what I say content wise is irrelevant to people. They just hate my "tone" Feb 18 23:26:47 When you say things the way you do, yes, the content tends to end up becoming irrelevant. Feb 18 23:26:58 CosmoHill: mine does that too, hangs at bios sometimes while detecting usb drives Feb 18 23:27:20 my new laptop will detect a USB SD card reader, but not the internal one :s Feb 18 23:27:29 sigh, perhaps I should follow one of these intel cultural sensitivity classes Feb 18 23:27:34 the internal ones are on pci-e usually Feb 18 23:27:57 which is why it took so long to get them working in linux Feb 18 23:28:02 ali1234: i thought it would be USB Feb 18 23:28:09 sometimes they are Feb 18 23:28:12 ali1234: then again, people literally take things out context and turn it around. Feb 18 23:28:27 ehy? Feb 18 23:28:41 hehe Feb 18 23:28:51 I just found HP-UNIX on my server Feb 18 23:29:19 auke: Look, what it comes down to is the fact that there's a huge community of people who are suddenly told "we're dumping all this stuff we've been doing for 3 years to join those guys there"... so, you know... trying to tone down things in this time of... uncertainty can only help. Feb 18 23:29:44 you're telling the person who's asked twice on the list to tone things down Feb 18 23:29:56 and come up with answers to everyone asking Feb 18 23:30:13 auke: And to be fair, Seb is definitely the kind of guy that does get into trouble for the exact same reasons too. Feb 18 23:30:39 no harm in admitting I go too far too. I certainly once in a while do :) Feb 18 23:31:23 auke: There's a lot of emotion involved right now... myself included... so we all just have to try to get past this initial awkward stage intact and see what happens. Feb 18 23:31:54 zerojay: there's a lot of emotion, and a few loud guys as well ;_) Feb 18 23:32:02 and that sets a negative atmosphere a little Feb 18 23:32:04 arjan: Yep, sure are. Feb 18 23:32:12 I'm trying hard to give honest answers Feb 18 23:32:25 it hurts if those honest answers are inverted at me back Feb 18 23:32:31 most of all Feb 18 23:32:37 sometimes it is just best to ignore the loudmouths Feb 18 23:32:54 zerojay: do you know if the loudest guys are truely maemo guys Feb 18 23:32:59 * CosmoHill gives auke a hug Feb 18 23:33:02 ahaha Feb 18 23:33:04 or do we have a bunch of non-maemo loudmoths just kicking a rucus Feb 18 23:33:05 now I feel funny Feb 18 23:33:09 auke: I'm sure you have been trying. Feb 18 23:33:12 :) Feb 18 23:33:47 also, I really think that most people have the same ideas about everything, it's just, not coming out yet. (not that I want a group-hug-session like cosmohill here is promoting) Feb 18 23:33:49 arjan: As one of those being loud and negative to this point, I can tell you that yes, most of them are true-blue Maemo users who are upset and hurt at what they've seen. Feb 18 23:34:02 ok. Feb 18 23:34:23 here on irc it was not quite that way Feb 18 23:34:35 we had some guys here being loud... and later admitting they'd never even used maemo Feb 18 23:35:14 I personally hate the fact that some people decided a cold shower was a great way to start off a party Feb 18 23:35:19 arjan: And I know it's not anyone on the Moblin side purposely trying to cause anyone shit... the lashing out is from being so personally invested in a project and then getting the feeling that it's been yanked out of your hands and given to other people who are making all sorts of decisions without engaging us. Feb 18 23:35:34 auke: do you mean cold shoulder? Feb 18 23:36:02 I think either can ruin your party experience Feb 18 23:36:07 I .. do not know what a cold shoulder is Feb 18 23:36:09 true Feb 18 23:36:11 it sounds awkward Feb 18 23:36:42 would make a good name for a band or mixed drink Feb 18 23:36:57 s/a band or// Feb 18 23:37:00 mikeleib: it is a band Feb 18 23:37:24 zowy Feb 18 23:37:37 auke: a cold shoulder means to ignore somebody Feb 18 23:37:56 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cold%20shoulder Feb 18 23:38:03 GeneralAntilles, you asked me to add infobot here. If folks want my bot in here, I need to hear from a channel op. Note: the bot logs publicly. Feb 18 23:38:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Shoulder Feb 18 23:38:21 CosmoHill: thanks, never heard of that expression before :) Feb 18 23:38:27 also album of singer Feb 18 23:38:30 TimRiker: we already have a bot that logs Feb 18 23:38:33 i thinmk Feb 18 23:38:38 zerojay: I'm hoping that the dust will settle a little and that then people also see the positive side Feb 18 23:38:40 something keeps logs Feb 18 23:38:57 zerojay: and I hope that people realize that on both sides unpopular comprimises were made Feb 18 23:39:09 I seem to also have a hard time figuring out what the affiliations are on the lists Feb 18 23:39:19 there are a lot of @debian.org posters for instance Feb 18 23:39:33 and some random domain names I can't place Feb 18 23:39:38 i honestly don't know why all the people who are unhappy don't just join the mer project and make their own thing Feb 18 23:39:46 arjan: As someone that is having a hard time with all of it... I know that it will calm down and cooler heads will prevail. Just give it a little time. Feb 18 23:39:46 CosmoHill, so I see. my bot does a lot more than just log. I'm just replying to GeneralAntilles's request though. use whatever bot you like. :) Feb 18 23:39:54 i don't know why they didn't do it 6 months ago Feb 18 23:39:59 or 3 years Feb 18 23:40:10 ali1234: Because it's not anywhere near the same thing. Feb 18 23:40:14 why? Feb 18 23:40:21 i use a bot that logs the last thing a user sent Feb 18 23:40:22 ali1234: with moblin I've even promoted that people do that (make public moblin repos) - didn't really happen just jet though Feb 18 23:40:36 so if you did !seen auke it would give you the time and the last thing he said Feb 18 23:40:45 auke: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Feb 18 23:40:54 zerojay: if maemo and moblin and meego are as open as is always claimed it should not be difficult at all Feb 18 23:40:55 zerojay: this channel seems to also get a bunch of good dialog going Feb 18 23:41:10 zerojay: the thing is, now that stuff is announced we can finally have that dialog Feb 18 23:41:10 zerojay: if they are not, well, that is a much bigger problem than what people are currently raging about Feb 18 23:41:16 ali1234: It's not about difficulty. It's the fact that Mer isn't the community at large. Feb 18 23:41:38 zerojay: hmm I should add myself to that wiki :) Feb 18 23:41:47 the community seems to be nothing but a distraction Feb 18 23:41:53 ali1234: Mer, as much as I like the guys working on it, isn't where the excitement is in the Maemo community when new devices are released. Feb 18 23:42:28 CosmoHill, I run apt/ibot/infobot/purl in a bit over a hundred channels on freenode. Sources on the infobot project on SF. as the bot has been around for many years, there are a lot of logs, many factoids, seen information etc. but as I said, use what you like. I was just replying to a memo. Feb 18 23:42:29 i thought this was mainly about support for old devices? (the raging i mean) Feb 18 23:42:30 ali1234: Depends on how you decide to treat it. Feb 18 23:42:41 ali1234: Nope, not at all. Feb 18 23:42:44 TimRiker, sorry, was stuck in scrollback. Feb 18 23:42:55 Stskeeps, jeremiah_, andre_, somebody with op, ping? :P Feb 18 23:42:57 TimRiker: cool Feb 18 23:42:59 GeneralAntilles, np Feb 18 23:43:08 ali1234: With the N900 being a possible exception since it's still so new. Feb 18 23:43:13 zerojay: what exactly are people unhappy about then? Feb 18 23:43:23 GeneralAntilles: there are no ops...there are only ninjas Feb 18 23:43:30 or is it just the general uncertainty? Feb 18 23:43:46 Damn Stskeeps for setting up a useless access list. :P Feb 18 23:43:58 !access Feb 18 23:44:06 when the different projects start showing up on meego start showing up and people start getting a part to play in new community i'm guessing everything will move on fast, maem.org community love doing work Feb 18 23:44:14 ali1234: Part of it is uncertainty. Part of it is feeling like they've been deeply involved in something for so long to suddenly see it ripped from their hands and delivered to someone else (true or not). Feb 18 23:44:22 /cs access #meego list will show you the registered ops. Feb 18 23:44:28 wihi: Yeah, that's pretty much right. Feb 18 23:44:42 zerojay: nothing has been taken away, all the stuff that was available before is still available Feb 18 23:44:45 TimRiker: ooo thanks Feb 18 23:44:47 so what is meego? a maemo fork? Feb 18 23:44:58 maemo + moblin Feb 18 23:45:05 merger of the two projects Feb 18 23:45:28 ali1234: The community has no/little say or involvement at this point. Feb 18 23:45:41 cool. something working now? all open source? targeting phones or just netbooks? Feb 18 23:45:42 ali1234: And you might say that's a good thing, but... Feb 18 23:45:43 or "make love" as someone put it (that made me shudder) Feb 18 23:45:55 TimRiker, both Feb 18 23:46:02 zerojay: i was just about to say that actually, given the current display of what the community is like Feb 18 23:46:25 ali1234, funny you should mention Mer, in many ways I thought/think Meego obsoletes Mer in a good way Feb 18 23:46:28 zerojay: you mean 'the part of the community that isn't inside nokia' Feb 18 23:46:33 TimRiker, it will target phones and netbooks. Feb 18 23:46:35 cool. once I have a few more of my phones available I'd like to help get it running there too. :) http://saygus.com/vphone Feb 18 23:46:37 zerojay: but more to the point, how is that different from before? did the community have a say in the /opt mess? Feb 18 23:46:40 zerojay: since clearly part of the community has been involved, just the inside-nokia part Feb 18 23:46:46 maybe tablet pcs too Feb 18 23:46:46 ali1234: Don't judge the community based on the emotional reaction to... well... losing everything. Feb 18 23:46:50 TimRiker, interactive TVs, media phones, and cars, too. Feb 18 23:47:00 arjan: I wouldn't call that anywhere near "part of the community", really. Feb 18 23:47:21 GeneralAntilles: basically embedded things with a gui? Feb 18 23:47:21 I'm not all that familiar with the details of how maemo worked Feb 18 23:47:25 so can't really judge that Feb 18 23:47:28 arjan: And no, we didn't get a say about the /opt mess either and man, that was annoying. Feb 18 23:47:29 zerojay, why is that? Feb 18 23:47:36 zerojay, well, sort of. Feb 18 23:47:45 zerojay, we got a big say in the specifics of the implementation. Feb 18 23:47:46 jku_: There's a lot more to the maemo community than just Nokians. Feb 18 23:47:56 GeneralAntilles: And it appears we aren't anymore. Feb 18 23:48:02 zerojay, unfortunately Nokia seemed to have realized it was an issue too late for any serious architecting. Feb 18 23:48:02 ali1234, I guess you didn't see the video where maemo.org people ("outside of nokia") stood with maemo ("inside nokia") people on the same stage and talked about the space issue on the pre-produciton betas and promised they'd work out something better than the situation on Maemo4 :-) Feb 18 23:48:02 Therefore people are upset. Feb 18 23:48:05 is any more of maemo available as open source now? ie: the video calling app etc? Feb 18 23:48:26 zerojay, I understood you said they aren't a part of the community... Feb 18 23:48:29 ShadowJK: it should make the idea of Mer easier to bring about, but the idea of a true community distro which is outside of the reach of commercial interests will never be obsolete Feb 18 23:48:41 TimRiker, yes, there's more open source stuff in Maemo than there used to be. Feb 18 23:48:50 TimRiker, and even more with it merging with Moblin. Feb 18 23:48:52 ali1234: Anyways, just give it some time to let stuff settle down a bit. When things are a little more mature, you'll see what the community can really do in a positive manner. Feb 18 23:49:24 jku_: Nokians are definitely a part of the Maemo community... but they are a small portion of the overall community at large. Feb 18 23:49:31 once we can talk about code and cool technical stuff maybe things will settle down Feb 18 23:49:40 I can talk about some of the cool stuff for PC like things we're doing Feb 18 23:49:44 Yes, things definitely will. Feb 18 23:49:52 arjan, when maemo people say "community", I think it has a heavy emphasis on "user community", but obviously third party developers (as in apps) are represented in that too.. Feb 18 23:49:52 (and yes, being able to run the same code on your laptop IS cool) Feb 18 23:50:04 ShadowJK: Yep. Feb 18 23:50:16 arjan, that was the idea anyway Feb 18 23:50:22 qt is everywhere Feb 18 23:50:47 TimRiker, since all of our useless European ops seem to have wandered off, can I have somebody poke you later so you don't need to wait around? ;) Feb 18 23:50:56 so.. what you'll see in our release in terms of new tech that other linux doesnt' do yet.... Feb 18 23:51:03 (and we have the code already) Feb 18 23:51:18 we use syslinux as bootloader on x86, with native resolution splash screen Feb 18 23:51:43 we'll use the new btrfs filesystem.. which has built in compression, can do snapshots (so you can so 'restore to factory' by just wiping the snapshot) etc Feb 18 23:51:52 it'll boot fast ;-) Feb 18 23:51:52 Those of you who haven't already done so... go ahead and add yourself to this: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Feb 18 23:52:02 arjan, how is btrfs stability these days? Feb 18 23:52:14 we have it in daily builds since september Feb 18 23:52:17 we have no open bugs Feb 18 23:52:28 it's actually rather rock solid for us Feb 18 23:52:31 arjan, are you talking about what will be installed on handsets or netbooks? Feb 18 23:52:42 this is teh x86 part Feb 18 23:52:48 on handsets you have an interesting thing Feb 18 23:52:55 Ah, last time I tried it on an ARM device I got a Out of space error at 50% full, followed by kernel OOPS :D Feb 18 23:52:58 since you may have "raw flash" not "block device flash" Feb 18 23:53:08 ShadowJK: the diskspace thing got solevd in the .32 kernel Feb 18 23:53:18 that was the only really big issue that was left Feb 18 23:53:28 ah, nice, I should try it again. nilfs2 is chewing up the write cycles on my sheevaplug :D Feb 18 23:53:37 raw flash --> need a different filesystem type Feb 18 23:53:49 MTD to the rescue Feb 18 23:53:51 ubifs is really good here I think, does compression too Feb 18 23:54:02 yeah on raw flash, ubifs seems to be the winner Feb 18 23:54:05 no argument Feb 18 23:54:17 mikeleib, I would really not want to see block emulation used when you have the *luxury* of having raw flash Feb 18 23:54:18 arjan, are we exposing the snapshot stuff in any way? Feb 18 23:54:29 jku_: in the first iteration not too much Feb 18 23:54:34 ShadowJK, does the sheeva have raw flash? ubifs works good on mine Feb 18 23:54:45 tripz0, Yeah I'm not using it though Feb 18 23:54:51 sd? Feb 18 23:54:51 ShadowJK: I suspect reality will be that for many things you won't see the raw flash Feb 18 23:55:00 arjan, yeah Feb 18 23:55:06 tripz0, current running off of 2 USB flash keys Feb 18 23:55:10 that's more a component supplier reality than a software influenced one Feb 18 23:55:12 heh. luxury Feb 18 23:55:39 mikeleib, the FTL in SD/emmc type things *really* suck Feb 18 23:56:09 ShadowJK: the good news is that btrfs is awesome if your FTL sucks Feb 18 23:56:12 btrfs atleast used to have a "ssd" mode, where ssd really meant "cheap ssd" Feb 18 23:56:15 due to the copy-on-write semantics Feb 18 23:56:51 ShadowJK: I'm not arguing. I just find raw flash as a luxury humours Feb 18 23:56:53 i have a question, if my BIOS doesn't allow be to boot to my internal SD card reader, would grub2? Feb 18 23:57:03 s/humours/humorous/ Feb 18 23:57:04 CosmoHill: o Feb 18 23:57:12 CosmoHill: (and why on earth grub2... shudder) Feb 18 23:57:14 no Feb 18 23:57:21 CosmoHill: probably not, no Feb 18 23:57:24 lol Feb 18 23:57:34 cos grub1 won't combine on 64bit Feb 18 23:57:37 mikeleib, ah it's luxury because you can do FTL in software and not have to endure the braindead ftl of sd Feb 18 23:58:24 CosmoHill: again, this is because it is a PCI device, not a bios disk like you would get from usb devices with bios emulation Feb 18 23:58:35 haha yeah grub1 on pure 64-bit is painful Feb 18 23:58:44 damn laptop makers Feb 18 23:58:44 indeed.. FTL on sd is really poor Feb 18 23:58:46 where 4k writes gets translated into 256k read-modify-write cycle Feb 18 23:58:51 it's actually EFI instead of a BIOS Feb 18 23:59:38 dunno then. but afaik grub doesn't support mmc card slots directly which would be required Feb 18 23:59:54 it's not a mac laptop Feb 18 23:59:57 On N900 where you have extra apps installed onto the emmc, there is very noticeable increased UI latency due to the increased paging latency when for example you have gpodder downloading a postcast to the emmc at the same time Feb 19 00:00:33 (fun factoid: N900 comes with a default /proc/sys/vm/swappiness of 100) :D Feb 19 00:00:56 we do the same thing to swappiness Feb 19 00:00:57 need to Feb 19 00:01:01 I'm off to bed, night nighht Feb 19 00:01:02 sucks too much otherwise Feb 19 00:01:11 Bump it to 100 you mean? Feb 19 00:01:19 yeah basically let it not swap unless Feb 19 00:01:26 100 means swap like crazy right? Feb 19 00:01:35 eh forgot the direction Feb 19 00:01:42 we set it to the one where it means "almost never swap" Feb 19 00:01:46 The previous maemo devices came with swappiness of 1 Feb 19 00:01:53 ah kk Feb 19 00:01:54 cyas Feb 19 00:02:07 arjan, so brtfs on an ssd with compression would be snappier booting than say ext4 or nilfs2? Feb 19 00:02:16 tripz0: I think so Feb 19 00:02:25 especially on rotating disk, btrfs kicks ass Feb 19 00:02:30 on ssd... the difference is a bit less Feb 19 00:02:43 cpu accelerated decompression might add another boost Feb 19 00:02:56 in the context of mobile we're unlikely to see SSDs for many years I'd think? Feb 19 00:02:56 decompression tends to be fast-ish Feb 19 00:03:05 it's the compression side that is cpu intensive Feb 19 00:03:13 if by "SSD" we mean the noncrap ones like Intel and indilinx Feb 19 00:03:14 * tripz0 wonders if atom has optimizations for that... Feb 19 00:03:16 ShadowJK: well an SSD is just a flash thing... Feb 19 00:03:30 tripz0: there's some atom sse code for zlib and stuff Feb 19 00:03:43 but decompress is bloody fast already, it's hard to get more than 10% on that Feb 19 00:04:03 (just as a side note, I spent a day last week looking at zlib performance ;-) ) Feb 19 00:04:30 tripz0, I suspect that for booting ext4 and btrfs will beat nilfs2. While reading I think nilfs2 by design ends up seeking all over the place (yeah it's flash, but mmc command overhead and so on...) Feb 19 00:04:43 btrfs has some really nice properties Feb 19 00:04:44 like Feb 19 00:04:48 snapshots Feb 19 00:04:54 for small files... the inode, dentry and the data are next to eachother Feb 19 00:04:56 Stuff like nilfs2 and LogFS seem designed to avoid the achilles heel of crap-SD: random writes Feb 19 00:04:59 often in the same block Feb 19 00:05:12 so with one IO you get all three essential parts of using a file into memory Feb 19 00:05:21 rather than three ios (even if you don't have seeks) Feb 19 00:05:32 and if you look at your filesystem.. there's an aweful high amount of small files around Feb 19 00:05:35 ShadowJK, any idea when nilfs2 will fix the write everything a bazillion times annoyance? Feb 19 00:05:44 tripz0, no idea :) Feb 19 00:05:52 IIRC, reiser could stuff small files into the inode Feb 19 00:05:54 Maybe if I had less than 80% fill it'd do less of it Feb 19 00:06:01 not sure Feb 19 00:06:11 But, in a power outage, it ate my ld.so.conf (a small file) Feb 19 00:06:13 mikeleib: yeah it did that kinda as well. Chris Mason did a lot of work on reiserfs... the good bits made it into btrfs ;-) Feb 19 00:06:29 ooo Feb 19 00:06:31 I switches to JFS after that Feb 19 00:06:39 arjan, I remember btrfs had this mode where it releaxed on-disk placement at write time, favouring sequential writing instead of placing it so that reads would be sequential? Feb 19 00:06:49 mikeleib, you used reiser and small in the same sentence. wow. Feb 19 00:07:01 ShadowJK: well... it kinda does it smart so that you get both Feb 19 00:07:08 hm Feb 19 00:07:08 ShadowJK: it has an internal online defragmenter Feb 19 00:07:16 what :) Feb 19 00:07:29 so as long as you have enough free space.. you can get sequential writes in a way where reads still don't suck Feb 19 00:08:01 GeneralAntilles, ok, I'm around, but I'm lagging while working. Feb 19 00:08:17 TimRiker, awesome, thanks! Feb 19 00:08:27 Does this thing run in the background, require user/admin poking, or integral part of how btrfs operates? Feb 19 00:08:30 we have a guy looking at seeing if we can tweak btrfs so that it sort of is aware that it's on a cheap flash thing Feb 19 00:08:41 awesome :) Feb 19 00:08:43 the defragger triggers on admin kind of things, but also if things get too bad Feb 19 00:09:21 the real intereting thing, and that does not exist yet, is that in principle the btrfs architecture can deal with having both fast and slow flash Feb 19 00:09:26 say 64Gb of slow cheap flash Feb 19 00:09:32 and 512Mb of fast expensive flash Feb 19 00:09:43 and then you can make it put all the "hot" data on the fast flash automatic Feb 19 00:09:43 I get the impression that the idea for Maemo6 was to run everything off of emmc, but I can tell on N900 already that it will suck hard with ext3 Feb 19 00:10:31 having your big mp3s on cheap flash, but all the stuff used all the time on fast flash... that's quite compelling Feb 19 00:10:35 arjan, multiple speed data has been around for ages and ages Feb 19 00:10:40 lcuk: it has Feb 19 00:10:52 lcuk: and now using it right is actually getting close ;-) Feb 19 00:10:57 I know EMC does it all the time Feb 19 00:11:00 ondie cache level 2,3 memory, drive caches, speedboost (or whatever MS called it) Feb 19 00:11:16 theres all sorts of combinations Feb 19 00:11:20 oh absolutely Feb 19 00:11:24 You know, benchmarks of the raw nand on the N900 and of the emmc actually show the emmc kicks the nand's ass in sequential write and read performance.. What makes the raw nand faster is ubifs vs ext3/vfat on stupid-hw-FTL :D Feb 19 00:11:59 ShadowJK, wheres the benchies? Feb 19 00:12:45 ShadowJK: makes me wonder how btrfs would do Feb 19 00:12:55 vfat is gonna suck no matter which way you spin it Feb 19 00:12:55 it was in one of those giant "omg dude where's fdisk I'm going to magically make the / partition span two devices and fix all the problems and create world peace like yeah unicorns"-threads on talk.maemo.org Feb 19 00:14:18 vfat vs ext3 benchmark results on sd mostly inspires one to make a facepalm gesture Feb 19 00:14:27 hi TimRiker :-) Feb 19 00:14:34 vfat is the worst format for cheap FTL Feb 19 00:14:39 ext3 is a not too distant second ;) Feb 19 00:14:54 but the cheap FTL's were designed to support vfat weren't they? ;-) Feb 19 00:15:04 * TimRiker smiles Feb 19 00:15:10 ShadowJK: if cheap FTL was designed then it'd not be cheap. Feb 19 00:15:28 it's more "slapped together and then puked on until the marketing people could sell it" Feb 19 00:16:47 I thought it was Sony or Olympus or someone equally, um, short sighted that made it ages ago, and hten everyone else silently copied it ever since... Feb 19 00:18:51 ~praise Father Tim Feb 19 00:19:03 :-( Feb 19 00:19:20 Oh, look, an op. Feb 19 00:19:32 wooow Feb 19 00:19:42 dirkhh/arjan, mind if we get Infobot in here? Feb 19 00:19:48 /invite infobot Feb 19 00:20:34 it really sucks that the channel is now divided in two Feb 19 00:20:47 yup Feb 19 00:21:14 the channel is divided in two? Feb 19 00:21:27 you mean three right? Feb 19 00:21:36 heh Feb 19 00:21:44 the maemon channel is now divided in two Feb 19 00:21:58 ?netsplit? Feb 19 00:22:15 i don't know if there is or was a moblin channel Feb 19 00:23:02 not a netsplit, intel nokia megacorp split Feb 19 00:23:23 uhsf, my channel list is always increasing. Feb 19 00:23:40 my IRC client lets me join lots of channels Feb 19 00:23:44 i'd like mine to stay low Feb 19 00:24:44 I need a better multicore for my brain Feb 19 00:25:08 maybe i will be here one day and on maemo the next day and alternatively Feb 19 00:25:49 taskswitching overhead is higher than payload Feb 19 00:29:25 OMG what a cloak Feb 19 00:31:39 Stskeeps: infobot? Feb 19 00:38:14 looking at meego's who's who wiki... it must be really confusing for someone not familiar with maemo... the sortof multi-tiered nokia<->maemo<->maemo.org structure Feb 19 00:39:06 Our power is in our obfuscation? Feb 19 00:42:09 ShadowJK: We are borg. Feb 19 00:42:32 not quite Feb 19 00:48:11 exaggering a bit, there's the "inside nokia's walls" people that are locked in a basement for 12 months coding, the people paid to maintain the maemo.org website and associated services, the userbase of novice users, powerusers, "hackers", "apps" developers and so on, and the council elected by the userbase to represent them to bang on the gates of nokia yelling "users need more than 40 Megs to install apps!" and such :) Feb 19 00:48:57 Yeah, exactly. Feb 19 00:48:58 Borg. Feb 19 00:49:01 ;) Feb 19 00:50:48 we are not borg. we are norg. or morg Feb 19 00:51:02 I just noticed the complete absence of "inside nokia's walls"-people on meego's who's who wiki article ;) Feb 19 00:51:28 Well I guess qgil should be counted, he's both :) Feb 19 00:52:54 there are lots of both not listed there Feb 19 00:54:31 ShadowJK, yeah, I think that'll be a slower transition for Nokia. Feb 19 00:57:36 Judging by crashanddie's new thread I can see I missed some fun on MeeGo-dev. Feb 19 00:59:34 ShadowJK: hey, i'm in that article, aren't i? Feb 19 00:59:49 timeless_mbp, you don't count. Feb 19 00:59:57 thanks :) Feb 19 01:00:03 You know what I mean. :P Feb 19 01:00:13 timeless_mbp, I must've missed it Feb 19 01:00:25 ShadowJK: i'm the last line of the page :) Feb 19 01:00:29 while i'm not counting, can someone help me w/ apache? :) Feb 19 01:02:33 * timeless_mbp grumbles Feb 19 01:03:06 the stupid meego wiki site hates me Feb 19 01:03:53 why can't i edit http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who ? Feb 19 01:03:57 arjan, random question for you, why doesn't moblin use tuxonice? Feb 19 01:04:17 doh! he probably went home Feb 19 01:04:27 timeless_mbp: are you logged in? Feb 19 01:04:36 lpotter: i seem to be half logged in Feb 19 01:04:40 i'm logged into meego.com Feb 19 01:04:44 but not wiki.meego.com Feb 19 01:04:52 and the login link on wiki.meego.com doesn't work Feb 19 01:04:55 which is stupid Feb 19 01:04:58 instead i have to log out Feb 19 01:05:28 and then log in which takes me to the meego.com login page (which has a universal login option) instead of the wiki native login page Feb 19 01:05:59 what is a "MeeGo developer"? Feb 19 01:06:09 is meego.org all same user/pass or does it copy maemo.org's silly different user/pass for everything? :) Feb 19 01:06:15 a piece of vaporwear Feb 19 01:06:33 * arjan is still here Feb 19 01:06:38 tripz0: why would it? Feb 19 01:06:41 suspend to disk sucks Feb 19 01:06:44 really Feb 19 01:06:49 we can boot faster than it takes to resume Feb 19 01:06:52 ShadowJK: I think you want meego.com - meego.org seems unrelated :) Feb 19 01:07:00 (and tuxonice is a royal pain patch) Feb 19 01:07:00 oops Feb 19 01:07:28 arjan, it seems like resuming to a given state would be useful on netbooks and even automotive applications Feb 19 01:07:34 jimmy@rogue:~$ whois meego.org | egrep -i 'registrant (name|country)' Feb 19 01:07:34 Registrant Name:sun alex Feb 19 01:07:34 Registrant Country:CN Feb 19 01:07:43 heh Feb 19 01:08:12 throw N900 completely offline and it idles for days, the only use for suspend to ram would be to hotswap... coldswap... uh, lukewarm-swap the battery :D Feb 19 01:08:16 tripz0: but tux on ice isn't that ;-( Feb 19 01:08:38 it's a massively invasive patch which is a royal pain Feb 19 01:08:48 I wish the guy would get his improvements upstream Feb 19 01:08:50 I'm rather surprised that intel+nokia chose the name meego without securing .com + .org + .net, but *shrug* maybe that conventional wisdom is less important than rumored Feb 19 01:09:17 Hydroxide: conventional wisdom is nonexistent here up north Feb 19 01:09:24 timeless_mbp: and out west too? Feb 19 01:09:33 meego.me was available last time I looked to Feb 19 01:09:34 as for why the new world part of the group failed to do the job Feb 19 01:09:36 I think it's extinct Feb 19 01:09:39 * timeless_mbp shrugs Feb 19 01:10:47 they did get .net though Feb 19 01:10:53 LF I mean, along with .com Feb 19 01:11:41 ShadowJK: suspend-to-ram for swapping bat? don't see that Feb 19 01:11:54 oops, of course I meant suspend to disk Feb 19 01:12:13 linux has been trying s-t-d for.. years Feb 19 01:12:16 and frankly, it sucks Feb 19 01:12:22 no offence to the people working on it, but it does Feb 19 01:12:29 (but it sucks on windows a well to be honest) Feb 19 01:12:38 we are morg. resistance is futile (if <0.1 Ohm) Feb 19 01:14:02 it mostly works on my fedora install, and that's even with the nvidia binary blob Feb 19 01:14:09 arjan: what does osx do? Feb 19 01:14:31 (but sometimes it takes half an hour to suspend to disk) Feb 19 01:15:13 heh Feb 19 01:15:34 ShadowJK: we boot in 5 seconds... isn't half an hour excessive ? ;) Feb 19 01:15:48 timeless_mbp: my mac mini seems to be kinda odd in that respect Feb 19 01:16:00 timeless_mbp: also just took a look at the US trademark filings related to meego - happily there's no other live trademark for "MEEGO" exactly besides LF's filing, but look at this registered trademark for "MEEGOS": http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4008:d7qgo0.2.1 Feb 19 01:16:30 Hydroxide: meegos is funny Feb 19 01:16:43 * mikeleib flees Feb 19 01:16:45 the first intro emails for meego told people to sign up for accounts Feb 19 01:16:55 the address we were given was to meegos :) Feb 19 01:16:56 ShadowJK: don't get me wrong, I can see use cases for suspend to disk Feb 19 01:17:11 arjan, well I'm talking about workstation here.. I like keeping my 25 xterms open and on the desktop and position they were when I stopped using the computer for the day :-) Feb 19 01:17:12 ShadowJK: but I'm sad it sucks so much as experience Feb 19 01:17:29 ShadowJK: I love Konsole.. it has good session management ;-) Feb 19 01:17:30 but sure Feb 19 01:17:35 Ameego!! Feb 19 01:17:45 For a netbook (which I don't own) I'm not sure I'd find a use fot suspend to disk either Feb 19 01:17:47 arjan: vbox has good session management :) Feb 19 01:18:05 timeless_mbp: it's news to me - and wow, actually the meegos people might have a valid claim in the relevant trademark class to the term 'meego' as well - they use 'meego' as the singular for 'meegos'. and owch Feb 19 01:18:14 s/ and owch// Feb 19 01:18:23 I switched to plain xterm after KDE4 came and konsole had acquired a few crashy bugs :-) Feb 19 01:18:34 Hydroxide: i would not shed one tear if they filed, fought, and won :) Feb 19 01:19:28 timeless_mbp: it's not an issue I have a role in, which means I can just grab the popcorn and watch amusedly :) I do hope the product itself succeeds, but they really should have done a bit more research regarding the name, even aside from the availability of "MeeGo Pee Now" jokes :) Feb 19 01:19:59 Hydroxide: get some extra popcorn for me :) Feb 19 01:20:04 hehe Feb 19 01:20:19 Hydroxide: you have no idea how much research was done on names Feb 19 01:20:25 but there seems to be a rule Feb 19 01:20:33 the more research is done on names, the more bland and sucky they get Feb 19 01:20:45 to be fair. mozilla failed on phoenix and firebird Feb 19 01:20:48 arjan: "if there is no conflicting claim to the name, eliminate it from consideration"? Feb 19 01:20:51 arjan: not fair Feb 19 01:21:23 timeless_mbp: yes, mozilla did fail a couple of times - and the same mistakes are being made 5-10 years later by multiple much larger companies?! Feb 19 01:21:24 MeeToo Feb 19 01:21:37 (a concour and vote for the name of meego) Feb 19 01:21:41 Hydroxide: bigger companies are bigger Feb 19 01:21:44 Last time I had to pick a name, I wrote a little program to generate consonant,vowel sequences, and picked a sequence from the stream that looked vaguely pronouncible Feb 19 01:21:47 why should they worry about smaller things? :) Feb 19 01:22:01 heh Feb 19 01:22:07 timeless_mbp: to be honest I'm surprised anything came out. many laywers from 2 big companies, AND their branding people in a room, and get agreement? Feb 19 01:22:15 ~always look on the light side of life~ Feb 19 01:23:01 * timeless_mbp wonders if anyone recognizes that corruption Feb 19 01:23:01 arjan: and ALL of them missed both the trademark and .org domain name issues? ...hence the amused popcorn-munching :) Feb 19 01:23:14 timeless_mbp: I do. monty python's life of brian :) Feb 19 01:23:21 * timeless_mbp slaps Hydroxide Feb 19 01:23:23 "no" Feb 19 01:23:33 remember "Elite" of Bell&Braben? The planets' names were machine generated by carefully selected algo not to collide with any real world names Feb 19 01:23:33 Next time you tie up the brandin people and hire terry gilliam Feb 19 01:24:00 timeless_mbp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always_Look_on_the_Bright_Side_of_Life Feb 19 01:24:09 * arjan decides it's a good time to go home Feb 19 01:24:14 arjan: haha :) Feb 19 01:24:47 Hydroxide: alright Feb 19 01:31:29 hmm, OM sysop is "roh AT central services" ;-P Feb 19 01:32:06 where's your 27B/6 Feb 19 02:59:31 g night meego'ers **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Feb 19 02:59:57 2010