**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 19 02:59:57 2010 Feb 19 04:19:59 LOL Feb 19 04:20:07 samsung just released a new linux-based mobile OS Feb 19 04:20:18 rofl Feb 19 04:20:21 BADA Feb 19 04:25:42 samsung really should have chosen MeeGo. this bada is a very dumb move by samsung Feb 19 04:29:57 uhsf: why would someone choose meego right now when A.) there is no code, and B.) there is still much community disgruntlment over little things like package managment Feb 19 04:30:00 ? Feb 19 04:33:06 samsung should have either waited until the second half of the year to release a MeeGo device or choose maemo as it is now. Feb 19 04:33:23 I am curious. What package management system is used by bada? Feb 19 04:33:41 Blice: Samsung didn't know, so it should have used maemo or moblin Feb 19 04:33:49 another OS on the market is not going to survive Feb 19 04:34:06 it might have its technical merits, but as we know that's not enough Feb 19 04:34:27 I for one welcome our diverse corporate backed mobile linux distros Feb 19 04:34:55 another linux based mobile os over android, webos and maemo right now is one too many. bada will obviously fail by lack of community Feb 19 04:35:20 you don't need community to succeed Feb 19 04:35:42 in the linux world i think yes Feb 19 04:35:58 this is about phones Feb 19 04:37:06 besides, isn't samsung a nokia competitor? Feb 19 04:37:16 anyway it divides the coding efforts so i don't welcome bada Feb 19 04:37:16 why would they want to work together? Feb 19 04:37:38 iPhone has a strong community, if it's a completely different community from that of linux users. Feb 19 04:37:57 I can't say if community is really necessary, but it's obvious that it helps a lot. Feb 19 04:38:37 I am reading some stuff about bada and it is obvious that Samsung doesn't get it and it's trying a top-down approach, retaining control everywhere. Feb 19 04:38:45 I think that it's a clear sign: it will fail. Feb 19 04:39:10 I think more mobile OSes is good, regardless. I think it's good because there is still room for A LOT of mobile GUI innovation Feb 19 04:39:18 and competition will speed that up Feb 19 04:40:00 that's an opinion about competition then. i'm against competition Feb 19 04:40:15 you prefer a monopoly? Feb 19 04:40:35 i prefer uniting efforts Feb 19 04:40:43 I suppose you're one of those people that think there are too many linux distros? Feb 19 04:40:49 actually, not... because of software patents. Feb 19 04:41:06 every platform patents some stuff and none of them use all the good innovations. Feb 19 04:41:30 ptl: It still forces the other competition to make something even more innovative in order to compete Feb 19 04:41:36 its good for the market in general, patents or not Feb 19 04:41:45 Android is still crippled by Apple's patent on zoom with two fingers on capacitive screen. Feb 19 04:42:14 yes, too many distros, useless gtk/qt duality, etc Feb 19 04:42:21 Blice: some stuff just can't be invented by pressure, and it seems to me that some good ideas can't simply be overthrown. Feb 19 04:42:38 if you don't want your coding efforts to go to waste then only contribute to upstream projects that you use, simple Feb 19 04:43:52 I think the multitasking on bada is nice. Feb 19 04:44:06 and lots of cool widgets Feb 19 04:44:18 did you see it? Feb 19 04:44:25 I just saw some youtube videos Feb 19 04:44:35 I can't make an opinion Feb 19 04:44:38 http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/14/samsung-wave-first-hands-on-bada-packed-and-super-fast/ Feb 19 04:44:58 I saw that Feb 19 04:45:08 Just judging from those videos Feb 19 04:45:18 couldn't infer that information from that article Feb 19 04:45:25 from the videos Feb 19 04:45:42 but also it has a 1 GHz processor and more than 512 MB RAM Feb 19 04:45:43 I'm excited about people thinking of new ways to multitask on a small screen Feb 19 04:45:53 it's easy to have good multitasking when you have that firepower Feb 19 04:46:03 I hope that someday we get a really intuitive way to do that so that it can actually be useful on the desktop aswell Feb 19 04:46:58 and yeah, it has good hardware. processors will keep improving Feb 19 04:48:18 which is bad news. Feb 19 04:48:20 Moore's law all over again. Feb 19 04:48:33 Apart from changing our computers every two years, we'll have to change our mobiles too. Feb 19 04:48:43 don't we already have to do that? Feb 19 04:48:58 But it seems to be speeding up... Feb 19 04:49:11 ptl, snapdragon isn't as fast as the 1GHz might lead you to believe. :) Feb 19 04:49:17 ptl: just because something better exists doesn't mean you need to get a new phone Feb 19 04:49:38 I am still on a p4 with 128mb ram desktop, I'm doing okay Feb 19 04:50:06 at least buy some more ram for it Feb 19 04:50:16 I don't really need it Feb 19 04:50:22 firefox hogs sometimes but it's not so bad Feb 19 04:50:52 you run firefox in 128mb? now you're making stuff up :) Feb 19 04:50:59 p4 with 128 mb? My cellphone has more RAM than your computer? Feb 19 04:51:19 do you run firefox 1 or something? Feb 19 04:51:36 wow Feb 19 04:51:39 because there is no way you will get decent performance out of a recent version with that little ram Feb 19 04:51:45 I haven't had 128MB since... 2001 Feb 19 04:52:17 ali1234: I try to run midori as much as I can but sometimes it doesn't cut it. Feb 19 04:52:29 firefox uses around 50mb ram unless I'm doing some flash stuff Feb 19 04:52:46 right now my firefox is using 178mb phys / 658mb virtual ram Feb 19 04:52:51 wow Feb 19 04:52:56 and i only have one window open Feb 19 04:53:16 granted i am using 64 bit Feb 19 04:54:01 i'm currently using 77% of my 4GB of ram Feb 19 04:54:14 * microlith salutes the moblin website for maintaining 1.5mbyte/s Feb 19 04:54:40 708MB of that is used by xorg, because the nvidia binary driver is leaky as a leaky thing Feb 19 04:54:58 i'm also using 6.9GB of swap Feb 19 04:55:16 my netbook has a bit more ram Feb 19 04:55:17 of which 6805MB is used by xorg, same reason Feb 19 04:55:43 my xorg uses 12mb, but its not stock Feb 19 04:55:54 and im using vesa, lol Feb 19 04:55:59 mine is using 500 phy / 1050 virtual Feb 19 04:56:33 i am quite annoyed by this actually Feb 19 04:56:56 12mb for xorg, 4mb for openbox Feb 19 04:56:56 I am not, I open so many tabs in firefox I can understand its glutony. Feb 19 04:57:15 i am annoyed by xorg using 6.9GB of swap for no reason Feb 19 04:57:18 I must have about 80 tabs by now Feb 19 04:57:27 I keep them open because I think one day I'll read the tabs and close them Feb 19 04:57:35 like some short-term bookmarks Feb 19 04:57:37 ali1234: are you sure that isn't your video card's memory? Feb 19 04:57:50 Blice: 6.9GB video card? Feb 19 04:57:55 where do i get one of those? Feb 19 04:58:08 oh, gb Feb 19 04:58:09 wow Feb 19 04:58:24 what kind of monster xorg are you using? Feb 19 04:58:33 the one with ubuntu Feb 19 04:58:37 the problem is the nvidia driver Feb 19 04:58:41 oh Feb 19 04:58:53 this only happens if i run 3d games Feb 19 04:59:09 ubuntu in general isn't very good at keeping a small memory footprint though, is it? Feb 19 04:59:30 it's not bad, on my old P4 it would use about 348mb normally Feb 19 04:59:42 oic. Feb 19 04:59:52 but that wasn't good enough for games Feb 19 05:00:10 I'll get a new computer when 6gb systems go down in price more Feb 19 05:00:15 there is currently a leak in the gnome volume control which causes it to use 400MB after a few days but i got that one patched Feb 19 05:00:17 I saw one from dell for $699 but that isn't cheap enough for me yet Feb 19 05:00:30 i haven't seen any other obvious leaks Feb 19 05:02:07 this system cost £500 or about $800 i think Feb 19 05:02:20 and it can't run moblin cos i bought AMD :) Feb 19 05:02:56 make an amd build :D Feb 19 05:03:18 i could... but why? Feb 19 05:03:32 oh, I thought you were disapointed that you could't run moblin on it Feb 19 05:03:43 it is annoying that i can't test the live images Feb 19 05:04:09 you can get a refurbished aspire one for cheap Feb 19 05:04:12 $150 or so Feb 19 05:04:12 ali1234: can't bring it up in vmware? Feb 19 05:04:20 or virtualbox? Feb 19 05:04:52 microlith: virtualbox. it says something about "unknown vendor microcode" and then stops on a black screen Feb 19 05:05:06 the live image says that? Feb 19 05:05:14 yes, i assume because the phenom 2 does not have SSSE3 Feb 19 05:05:49 mmm, nice way of blocking competitors there :> Feb 19 05:06:06 Blice: i have an AAO, but i don't have a usb flash big enough for moblin, so i have to get a usb harddrive, and that has errors on it, and always craps out Feb 19 05:06:25 i think i dropped it one too many times Feb 19 05:06:46 anyway i got it to boot eventually :) Feb 19 05:07:01 ali1234: are you a dev? Feb 19 05:07:03 i would have much prefered to just run it in virtualbox though Feb 19 05:07:12 Blice: not for maemo or moblin, no Feb 19 05:07:20 oh okay Feb 19 05:07:29 if you were I'd donate a bigger flash drive, lol :] Feb 19 05:07:35 i do some kernel hacking, bit of PyQt coding Feb 19 05:07:48 i am just to lazy to go out and buy one Feb 19 05:08:00 and i wanted to see moblin NOW :) Feb 19 05:08:18 I was a little disapointed with moblin :[ Feb 19 05:08:21 so i had to mess about a bit... that's the linux way Feb 19 05:08:28 I thought it would be easier to use and faster to go about doing things on my netbook Feb 19 05:08:37 but as it stands its more convenient doing things with a traditional wm Feb 19 05:08:42 it is, if you use your netbook to go on twitter Feb 19 05:08:46 lol Feb 19 05:08:47 true Feb 19 05:08:53 which a lot of people do Feb 19 05:09:06 presumably facebook integration will be next Feb 19 05:09:10 all that stuff Feb 19 05:09:28 personally i would replace the "myzone" thing with a terminal or something Feb 19 05:09:37 so that the netbook os will be on the same level as mobile phone oses right now? Feb 19 05:09:43 re: facebook integration Feb 19 05:09:57 yeah but with the ability to run normal apps too Feb 19 05:10:02 facebook is the money maker though Feb 19 05:11:16 Blice: can I ask a questionm Feb 19 05:11:21 what would you like to see? Feb 19 05:11:30 * microlith pushes moblin out to his usb key Feb 19 05:11:31 * arjan & very interested as moblin dev... good ideas ;) Feb 19 05:11:34 nice test for meego's independence from Intel as oppossed to moblin, when I can run it on an amd cpu+gpu :-p Feb 19 05:11:38 good ideas always welcome Feb 19 05:11:47 bfree: newer amd cpus have ssse3 too Feb 19 05:11:48 afaik Feb 19 05:11:55 arjan: unfortunately I can only give you generic concepts of what I want, not exact ideas :( Feb 19 05:12:00 it's that with ssse3 you can get away from x87 floating point Feb 19 05:12:03 Blice: try me ;-) Feb 19 05:12:15 and non-x87 floating point is a big gain Feb 19 05:12:26 (think of it like arm neon stuff... same kind of deal) Feb 19 05:13:00 I was going to say that arm doesn't have sse3 Feb 19 05:13:13 it's purely a compiler thing Feb 19 05:13:13 arjan: traditional window managers are slightly inconvenient for netbooks because of the screen real estate etc... And I always thought that was what moblin had set out to fix. But as it stands, using moblin is more inconvenient than a normal window manager, when it comes to switching applications or whatever else. Feb 19 05:13:33 in the meego 1.0 tree we have a much improved app/zone switcher Feb 19 05:13:38 arjan: It might be as useful once you're adapted to it, but I'd like to see something thats intuitive enough to feel right in that its as useful as a desktop os Feb 19 05:13:39 it was one of the biggest complaints people had Feb 19 05:13:43 alt-tab like works again now ;) Feb 19 05:14:04 a friend of mine missed the Maximize button from the window decorations Feb 19 05:14:21 bef0rd: I do too, but I've not been able to convince the UI designers that it's important to have one Feb 19 05:14:29 I would settle for one which invisible until you mouse over Feb 19 05:15:24 arjan: also I'm not much of a social networking guy. I'm a web guy yes, but not social networking. So the moblin interface feels a little wasted on me Feb 19 05:15:40 how easy is it to change the moblin toolbar/ panels? Feb 19 05:15:55 if you are even keeping it? Feb 19 05:16:00 in the newest meego code it's a lot easier apparently; but I have not tried to change it myself Feb 19 05:16:07 that part got reworked a lot Feb 19 05:16:33 i like how it works but i also feel that probably 4 out of the 8 panels i will never actually use Feb 19 05:16:39 arjan: I'm really glad you guys are switching to syslinux for boot manager. I've been using it as mine for the past year and I never understood why more people don't use it Feb 19 05:16:46 ali1234: same Feb 19 05:18:02 ali1234: there's some huge improvements there... Feb 19 05:18:11 Blice: glad you like it.. I like it to Feb 19 05:18:21 (and it's also nice that I can ask peter anvin for features ... ;-) Feb 19 05:18:30 arjan: social networking just isn't big on everyone... the interface would be lost on my mother etc. Feb 19 05:19:25 ali1234: the panels are being reshuffled based on user feedback; several won't make it, and a new one is already there Feb 19 05:19:29 arjan: for me a killer feature would be if i could set it to show some arbitrary webpage in "fullscreen" - ie totally fill the whole panel with the page Feb 19 05:19:59 sort of like movie mode for webpage Feb 19 05:20:09 yeah, so the webpage would be the panel Feb 19 05:20:15 and it would autoload up Feb 19 05:20:23 so i could have a "gmail" panel right on the toolbar :) Feb 19 05:20:38 or a google maps, or anythingi care to make myself Feb 19 05:21:40 are you here in the UK morning? nick is here in the UK time, and he's the UI designer for that part Feb 19 05:21:59 it would be impossible to navigate away from the page you set too - links would open in a "normal" browser Feb 19 05:22:19 sort of a one page mini browser kind of thing Feb 19 05:22:33 like you would put NY times there if you're a news junky Feb 19 05:22:40 or the CNN sports page if you're into pointyball Feb 19 05:22:46 yeah Feb 19 05:23:04 or more likely point it to your account page on some news aggregator website Feb 19 05:23:16 yeah or like igoogle/google reader Feb 19 05:23:29 basically it would put a webapp right on the toolbar Feb 19 05:23:33 heck or your google calendar Feb 19 05:23:47 * arjan likes it Feb 19 05:23:51 I hope nick likes it too ;-) Feb 19 05:23:55 instead of having to find it in your bookmarks Feb 19 05:25:46 don't get me wrong, i would prefer a native app to a webpage any day, but a lot of the time that isn't possible especially i have found with gmail Feb 19 05:26:04 every time i try to use a normal email client with it, it tries to download all the messages Feb 19 05:26:07 and my gmail is 2GB Feb 19 05:26:11 so it just fails Feb 19 05:26:22 hehe Feb 19 05:26:26 I use claws for email Feb 19 05:26:36 i use firefox :) Feb 19 05:26:36 but I haven't found the time to package that for moblin/meego in a way that works Feb 19 05:26:41 I use thunderbird. I like the new search bar and tabs, really nice. Feb 19 05:26:43 claws rocks if you have a LOT of email Feb 19 05:26:49 yeah I use thunderbird for work mail Feb 19 05:26:53 it's quite nice actually Feb 19 05:27:10 with gmail manager, and lots of filters done in gmail itself, i have no problem browsing multiple mailing lists Feb 19 05:27:11 but if you have a TON of mail on imap it might not be the best one Feb 19 05:27:24 I use claws for that... with lots of like so far Feb 19 05:27:34 the only drawback of claws is that it's single threaded Feb 19 05:27:40 so no background email pulling Feb 19 05:27:55 (I don't mind, because if I want my mail I want it now, not in the background anyway) Feb 19 05:28:06 seems claws has a maemo port, i should try it :) Feb 19 05:28:26 arjan: any word yet on when code will be released? is there a date yet? Feb 19 05:28:26 osso-mail was one of the ones that failed, for me Feb 19 05:28:30 for meego Feb 19 05:28:43 mail clients have a list of mail IDs already downloaded. You could probably generate such list without actually downloading all the mails Feb 19 05:29:24 i could do but sometimes even i get tired of hacking stuff to work properly :) Feb 19 05:29:28 now that I'm a bit better with C and have had many adventures in "how can I boot faster" land I'm anxious to contribute anything I can Feb 19 05:29:45 Blice: not a 100% commit, but it looks like 2 to 3 weeks Feb 19 05:29:58 we want the infrastructure to actually WORK Feb 19 05:30:34 it would suck if we released bits but not a way where people can contrinute Feb 19 05:30:37 contribute Feb 19 05:30:41 yeah I understand Feb 19 05:31:17 there's a lot of complaints already about "oh but there's no bla bla" yet Feb 19 05:31:26 doing a bunch of half releases sucks, so we are trying to get enough into shape Feb 19 05:31:33 and that just takes a bit of time Feb 19 05:31:49 does moblin have a "download everything and compile it and produce a iso" system like android has? if not, will meego have one? Feb 19 05:31:51 (and we're trying to get all the artwork changed) Feb 19 05:32:04 not in the android way Feb 19 05:32:08 we have packages, android doesn't Feb 19 05:32:14 arjan, for Moblin or for the site? Feb 19 05:32:14 we do have a system to build packages Feb 19 05:32:35 GeneralAntilles: the bits; you'd be surprised how often "moblin" was in the graphics Feb 19 05:32:46 Hehe Feb 19 05:32:49 and we have a system to go from packages to an iso Feb 19 05:32:54 so.. it's more of a two step thing Feb 19 05:32:57 Nokia's the exact opposite Feb 19 05:33:08 I think Maemo appears exactly once in any of the UI. Feb 19 05:33:26 I'm not sure we'll get rid of the all of them; we're trying Feb 19 05:33:35 but I'd not be surprised one slips through somewhere ;) Feb 19 05:33:55 Can exactly do a global search on graphics. ;) Feb 19 05:34:53 s/Can/Can't/ Feb 19 05:35:03 * GeneralAntilles pokes Stskeeps. Feb 19 05:36:28 quite. Feb 19 05:36:44 ali1234: our iso generate tool is quite nifty Feb 19 05:36:50 arm packages with the first release? what will it run on :-p hehe sorry Feb 19 05:36:53 it generates iso files that are also bootable usb for example Feb 19 05:36:58 bfree: not entirely sure yet Feb 19 05:37:08 yeah that is a nice feature (usb storage boot) Feb 19 05:37:17 arjan: isohybrid? if so yep it's nifty Feb 19 05:37:20 the infrastructure is getting ready for arm, not sure how much packages we have Feb 19 05:38:11 hmm yeah. USB hostmode needed for boot from USB Feb 19 05:38:51 so for N810 it's nice Feb 19 05:39:24 nah wait. Generic hostmode for booting not supported on N810 either Feb 19 05:39:55 the iso making tool is extensible to various formats Feb 19 05:39:59 so if there is some way.... Feb 19 05:40:09 well with isohybrid it would probably work on sd or any "disc" anyway Feb 19 05:40:15 but if the platform just is not very nice about booting, yeah you'd be stuck Feb 19 05:40:35 yeah. SD probably a way to go Feb 19 05:41:22 to be honest I don't know what the prefered bootloader for arm is Feb 19 05:41:34 there isn't one, all devices use a different one Feb 19 05:41:36 worst case "should" be kexec Feb 19 05:41:44 no such thing like "preferred" bootloader Feb 19 05:42:14 Nokia plan on locking down the bootloader on their next device anyway :-/ Feb 19 05:42:21 Nokia uses NOLO, HTC uses IPL/SPL Feb 19 05:42:26 really? Feb 19 05:42:31 * arjan has fond memories of redboot Feb 19 05:42:37 a number of devices use uBoot Feb 19 05:42:38 where did you get these news, bfree? Feb 19 05:42:38 as in "the guys 3 cubes over swear while coding it" Feb 19 05:42:44 bfree, erm, it's already locked down. Feb 19 05:43:00 GeneralAntilles: yeah, I wasn't too sure about that Feb 19 05:43:02 bfree, you can still replace it. Feb 19 05:43:07 HTC's bootloader is locked down too, it didn't stop it from getting cracked Feb 19 05:43:16 bfree, just nobody's actually built a replacement. Feb 19 05:43:25 and you have to deal with the BB5 crap. Feb 19 05:43:26 writing bootloaders is sucky Feb 19 05:44:19 bfree, the only change for Maemo 6 is that the bootloader will check for signed kernel for the purposes of DRM and security stuff. Feb 19 05:44:20 GeneralAntilles: that's not locked down then in my book, just not open. for maemo6 (from fosdem) the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM and irreplacable Feb 19 05:45:19 I hope the GPLv2 thing comes back and kicks Nokia's ass. Feb 19 05:45:31 I can't believe they're kowtowing to operators like this. Feb 19 05:45:49 ok Feb 19 05:45:56 so if the bootloader will be the gatekeeper to the DRM Feb 19 05:46:02 as we'll have option to "no DRM" Feb 19 05:46:08 Yup Feb 19 05:46:09 anyway, for me worst case there is having to do something like petitboot as bootloader (see ps3 linux stuff) to kexec the target from a kernel with built-in initrd (that has petitboot or whatever "bootloader" as a 2nd phase loader) Feb 19 05:46:18 it will also be the gatekeeper of the "no DRM" option, isn't it? Feb 19 05:46:28 Yeah Feb 19 05:46:30 ptl: yes, very much so Feb 19 05:46:32 that means, what decides if the device is locked or not will be a locked program by itself Feb 19 05:46:57 Yes Feb 19 05:46:58 doesn't that spoil having an option in the first place? Feb 19 05:47:02 GeneralAntilles: NOOOO, signed kernels. :-((( Feb 19 05:47:10 Which is why if you buy it subsidized the operator can do all sorts of evil shit. Feb 19 05:47:13 DocScrutinizer, is this news? Feb 19 05:47:15 yep, so presumably a carrier with a subsidised phone could lock it Feb 19 05:47:32 bfree, my bet is that Nokia's advertising that as a perk to operators. :\ Feb 19 05:47:43 * GeneralAntilles wishes the dinosaurs would just die off already. Feb 19 05:47:46 bfree: yes, that was already stated Feb 19 05:47:47 GeneralAntilles: of course they are Feb 19 05:47:48 GeneralAntilles: this means the device is *totally* locked Feb 19 05:48:17 just buy enough of the open phones to send the message ;) Feb 19 05:48:34 btw all phones have that feature, it's not like it is a "perk" - if a phone can't do that, operators will be asking why the hell it can't? Feb 19 05:48:44 DocScrutinizer, have you not been following any of the security stuff? Feb 19 05:48:59 ali1234, N900 doesn't have that feature. Feb 19 05:49:00 nah Feb 19 05:49:10 arjan: open phones, you mean the openmoko? I didn't like the form factor/hardware much :-p Feb 19 05:49:12 DocScrutinizer, well, signed kernels with Harmattan. Feb 19 05:49:16 GeneralAntilles: and that is why you can't buy it subsidized Feb 19 05:49:22 DocScrutinizer, means carriers can lock you to one kernel. Feb 19 05:49:34 DocScrutinizer, Nokia will use it to disable DRM on unsigned kernels. Feb 19 05:49:37 each time it was mentioned a strange nausea forced me away from the PC Feb 19 05:49:42 ali1234, not, in fact, the case. Feb 19 05:49:51 GeneralAntilles: link please Feb 19 05:49:55 You can buy it "subsidised", just not "defective by design" yet Feb 19 05:49:57 ali1234, Vodafone sells it subsidized. Feb 19 05:50:03 in what country? Feb 19 05:50:22 Ireland, vodafone and o2 both afaik Feb 19 05:50:24 UK Feb 19 05:50:37 wish the n900 was subsidized in the US Feb 19 05:50:51 wow it is true Feb 19 05:50:55 arjan, no you don't. Feb 19 05:51:02 arjan, did you see what AT&T did to the E71? Feb 19 05:51:05 http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-phone/nokia-n900, £40/month contract Feb 19 05:51:16 Or what's happened to basically every Android phone on the market. . . . Feb 19 05:51:33 my n900 is open, and before that I had an E61i unlocked Feb 19 05:51:35 so no I don't know Feb 19 05:51:54 arjan, subsidization just lets your operator control your device. Feb 19 05:51:54 GeneralAntilles: how do you use signatures of kernel to disable a single kernel feature via bootloader?? I don't see that Feb 19 05:52:06 DocScrutinizer: it's easy ;( Feb 19 05:52:15 DocScrutinizer: you have a key in hardware for the DRM crypto Feb 19 05:52:17 * slonopotamus misses the point of locked phones. They're sold with a contract, that binds you to this operator (at least for some time). Why lock hw itself? Feb 19 05:52:24 GeneralAntilles: it's not tit-for tat in the US. They might control your device anyway. Feb 19 05:52:28 and the bootloader does not give access to that key unless the kernel matches a signature Feb 19 05:52:31 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security Feb 19 05:52:43 mikeleib, AT&T does not control my device. Feb 19 05:52:43 this is also how blueray works on windows 7 Feb 19 05:52:48 mikeleib, CDMA doesn't count. Feb 19 05:52:49 slonopotamus: because they have stuff in the firmware which forwards users to their "walled garden" mobile internet sites rather than the real internet Feb 19 05:52:51 slonopotamus: e.g. to make text messaging more attractive then cheaper data Feb 19 05:52:59 arjan: no, bootloader either starts the unsigned kernel, or it does not Feb 19 05:53:02 if it wasn't locked people would just reflash with the vanilla firmware Feb 19 05:53:20 ali1234, so? Feb 19 05:54:07 moo all Feb 19 05:54:07 slonopotamus: so then they lose out on revenue Feb 19 05:54:15 bfree, you sign contract anyway (and pay it). Who cares if you use it or not? Feb 19 05:54:21 moo magoo Feb 19 05:54:23 DocScrutinizer: it can start an unsigned kernel, but tell the vault (TPM whatever) that has the magic key to not give it out Feb 19 05:54:25 that is how it works on pcs Feb 19 05:54:36 slonopotamus: who says I signed a contract? Feb 19 05:54:47 ali1234, they already got revenue in form of your monthly paymments. Feb 19 05:54:47 * mikeleib reads backlog Feb 19 05:55:01 writing bootstrappers is suckier than writing bootloaders Feb 19 05:55:20 arjan: uhuh, and what about kexec to unsigned kernel then? Feb 19 05:55:33 bfree, err... i thought that's the way locked phones work. you buy it bundled with a contract. Feb 19 05:55:37 slonopotamus: so what? i'm just telling you why they do it, i'm not saying it is right Feb 19 05:55:56 DocScrutinizer: you can bet that the signed kernels have kexec disabled Feb 19 05:55:56 ali1234, okay :) Feb 19 05:55:58 slonopotamus: with their customized firmware they drive the users through there after market revenue system Feb 19 05:56:04 otherwise you had a moron building your kernel ;-) Feb 19 05:56:22 aha. So what I told. The *whole* device is locked Feb 19 05:56:23 module loading as well Feb 19 05:56:56 signed modules is easy; when I was at RH we used that Feb 19 05:57:08 (more to show which modules were not from us, so that we knew about it in bug reports) Feb 19 05:57:22 but saying "don't load unsigned modules" would be a trivial change from that Feb 19 05:57:30 what a royal fuckup Feb 19 05:57:30 slonopotamus: prepay phones can be subsidised only and locked to a network Feb 19 05:57:52 and for every phone there is an unlocking tool Feb 19 05:58:11 I would have bought a Pre here on prepay except o2 state "they won't unlock it" Feb 19 05:58:40 You can probably get a small-time phone shop to unlock it for you for $10-20. Feb 19 05:58:44 but that may only be a network lock to confuse issues, not OS Feb 19 05:58:59 yes, there are multiple different types of lock Feb 19 05:59:04 well I don't buy a Linux phone to unlock it Feb 19 05:59:37 I mean, the single-carrier requirement will be gone. Feb 19 05:59:41 that's just defeating the purpose in my book (hi Tivo) Feb 19 06:00:20 bfree: ACK! Feb 19 06:00:22 morning Feb 19 06:00:42 yes i quite agree, you should not buy locked stuff even if you know oyu can unlock it Feb 19 06:01:41 Not even at a cost-savings ratio of ten? Feb 19 06:01:57 not if you have principles :) Feb 19 06:02:01 I don't NEED fsckng DRM, I don't WANT it, and for sure I won't bother to break it. I'll simply set Nokia on my ignore list the day they sell that crap Feb 19 06:02:04 What principle would that be? Feb 19 06:03:16 If I try to give you a used PC that has a password on it, does your principle keep you from accepting it? Feb 19 06:03:33 jrayhawk: what use to me is a piece of hardware that's been deliberately crippled? Feb 19 06:03:49 jrayhawk: no, because the PC has a built in and documented method of removing it Feb 19 06:03:55 So does the phone. Feb 19 06:04:13 jrayhawk: the maemo 6 / meego phone, yes. other phones, no Feb 19 06:04:15 bullshit Feb 19 06:04:18 jrayhawk: oh, you're referring to a device where it can actually be unlocked? Feb 19 06:04:24 without begging someone Feb 19 06:04:26 Every GSM phone does, some CDMA phones do. Feb 19 06:05:04 jrayhawk: those phones can only be unlocked by the carrier for an extra cost, or by undocumented hacks Feb 19 06:05:28 jrayhawk: typically the official way needs a unique code, and the hack requires some kind of exploit Feb 19 06:05:33 fwiw I was quite unsuccessful at unlocking a laptop with bios/hd encryption Feb 19 06:05:49 in the PC example, i just remove the BIOS battery (like stated in the manual) and the password is gone Feb 19 06:05:51 so I had to ask for the previous owner to unlock it Feb 19 06:05:53 The unique code is not phone-unique and they're widely shared without punishment from the carriers. Feb 19 06:05:58 hd passwords are not encryption fwiw Feb 19 06:06:07 (and there are master passwords... the drive vendor has those) Feb 19 06:06:09 ali1234: the maemo6 phone will depend on where you get it who will have permission to do what with it. The n900 as best I know has no such system available Feb 19 06:06:12 hd encryption is gonna cause a problem Feb 19 06:06:28 ali1234: that laptop had soldered battery Feb 19 06:06:31 the bios password is not Feb 19 06:06:43 i would never in a million years buy a PC and not do a full wipe of the drive followed by fresh install Feb 19 06:06:58 It had a bios password to prevent removing the HD encryption Feb 19 06:07:14 so not even swapping the HD worked Feb 19 06:07:17 DocScrutinizer, I'm just pulling for Nokia getting a GPLv3 ass kicking. Feb 19 06:07:34 suihkulokki: in that case i would not buy it, it is clearly a lemon of some kind :) Feb 19 06:07:46 GeneralAntilles: and drive more people away from using GPL licensed software? Feb 19 06:08:00 GeneralAntilles: you talked to Harald Welte? Feb 19 06:09:11 DocScrutinizer, no. Feb 19 06:09:21 microlith, maybe all of the dinosaurs will die of heart attacks then we can move on anyway. Feb 19 06:09:22 sorry, that nausea strikes again Feb 19 06:09:49 GeneralAntilles: would be nice, sadly I don't think it will happen soon Feb 19 06:09:50 the moblin faq didn't like gpl v3 either Feb 19 06:10:42 what is the point of moving to gplv3? newer upstream packages? Feb 19 06:10:43 If you do attempt enforcement, please use Harald Welte rather than the FSF. Feb 19 06:11:22 hi,there Feb 19 06:11:29 RST38h: well, for some people it's the political point made in doing so Feb 19 06:11:35 bfree: I don't think moblin ever said anything about gplv3 Feb 19 06:11:51 like or dislike Feb 19 06:12:58 microlith: But aside from political preferences of random people Feb 19 06:13:39 RST38h: not much really, it was mostly to close what the FSF saw as loopholes Feb 19 06:16:27 arjan: I can't find anything about licenses now on moblin ... sorry if I've misremembered that. I went reading too much stuff a few days ago and maybe some wires crossed Feb 19 06:16:36 :/LIST Feb 19 06:19:26 setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard Feb 19 06:19:42 * Guest85276 slaps deekey around a bit with a large trout Feb 19 06:30:15 setenv IRCNICK eric.leopard Feb 19 06:30:35 it's not working very well... Feb 19 06:32:40 test Feb 19 06:36:27 pest Feb 19 06:40:59 Morning MeeGo! Feb 19 06:41:53 morning tekojo Feb 19 06:44:06 In my time, it shoule be "afternoon" Feb 19 06:46:03 think it would be sane to adapt UGT ;) Feb 19 06:52:52 Stskeeps: What, internet time? ;) Feb 19 07:10:54 Good morning ... Feb 19 07:20:58 ~ugt Feb 19 07:21:24 Stskeeps: how about /invite infobot ? Feb 19 07:21:49 tried Feb 19 07:21:57 rejected? Feb 19 07:22:11 not responding to my invites Feb 19 07:22:55 shit, tim riker was around last night. You'd need to contact him and ask him to allow infobot to join Feb 19 07:22:56 you're being too forward, try some flowers or chocolates Feb 19 07:23:06 johnx: the wedding ring on my finger probably doesn't help Feb 19 07:23:14 DocScrutinizer: yeah, i woke up two hours too late Feb 19 07:24:02 Stskeeps, you'd be amazed at that one actually, but maybe infobot's just not that kind of bot Feb 19 07:25:25 Stskeeps: you might try to catch Tim on #BZFlag Feb 19 07:25:47 DocScrutinizer: k Feb 19 07:25:49 bzflag! wow, been a while since I played that Feb 19 07:26:03 or on #infobot Feb 19 07:27:00 morn danielwilms Feb 19 07:27:18 Stskeeps: morning! Feb 19 07:31:10 * mikeleib tires Feb 19 07:31:19 sleep mikeleib Feb 19 07:33:33 tripzero: sleep Feb 19 07:34:48 okay, i will Feb 19 07:34:50 Morning, all Feb 19 07:36:48 morning! Feb 19 07:42:06 moin Feb 19 07:45:26 ok, for people to play, i've put up http://ec2-72-44-51-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com/ - thanks to jebba for hosting Feb 19 07:45:54 if anyone familiar w/ rpm/rpmbuild is around, and can talk to me for a bit, that'd be appreciated Feb 19 07:52:34 timeless_mbp: I'm about to head off to work Feb 19 07:53:11 but you could email me your questions and I'll try and answer them or wait for just over an hour and I'll be back in here Feb 19 07:57:15 * timeless_mbp wonders if there's an easy way to get a list of [user] 'installed' packages Feb 19 08:01:07 * DocScrutinizer waves Feb 19 08:05:38 timeless_mbp: you mean ones in Section: user/? Feb 19 08:12:01 Jaffa: sorry, realm:moblin(meego-base) Feb 19 08:12:11 i mean things that i installed _after_ the system installed packages Feb 19 08:12:23 roughly things that 'apt' would have remembered me 'asking' for Feb 19 08:12:29 but in this case, i'm using 'yum' Feb 19 08:16:09 * timeless_mbp grumbles Feb 19 08:16:12 * timeless_mbp kicks gcompris Feb 19 08:16:23 99% of the packages i'm playing with use 'BuildRequires:' Feb 19 08:16:32 gcompris just to be different uses 'Buildrequires:' Feb 19 08:43:17 * timeless_mbp also kicks aspell, autoconf213, automake, cronie, dbus-c++, expect, gettext, libbonoboui, and libgpod Feb 19 09:15:59 townxelliot: Are you around? Feb 19 09:17:19 or maybe X-Fade ? Feb 19 09:17:55 bva: hello Feb 19 09:18:16 I have noticed something on the website of Meego Feb 19 09:18:25 timeless_mbp: how you getting on ? Feb 19 09:18:25 maybe you can have a look Feb 19 09:18:43 bva: what's that? Feb 19 09:18:51 slaine_: well, i got most of the packages to transform into sources Feb 19 09:18:56 Meego.com -> Community Feb 19 09:19:11 i want to smack those couple of packages which don't write BuildRequires: with a capital R (see irc log) Feb 19 09:19:14 rpmdev-setuptree created your macro etc. I assume ? Feb 19 09:19:28 if you press like | A | Feb 19 09:19:39 I'm only a different machine at the moment Feb 19 09:19:42 you get names starting with W Feb 19 09:19:56 and M Feb 19 09:19:57 slaine_: channel topic has a link to a permanent log Feb 19 09:20:13 oh, never noticed Feb 19 09:21:21 slaine_: so, i have a couple of packages which failed to patch properly, one needed dos2unix, one needed cabextract Feb 19 09:21:25 but it's mostly done Feb 19 09:21:34 now i'm trying to figure out why my indexer doesn't like me Feb 19 09:22:33 bva: not sure what you mean Feb 19 09:22:57 townxelliot: your on the members pag? Feb 19 09:23:00 page* Feb 19 09:25:42 bva: yes, it's filtering by username, but showing the display name Feb 19 09:25:51 bva: granted, not particularly intuitive Feb 19 09:26:07 aaah yeah ok Feb 19 09:26:37 ppl will be confused if they dont know that Feb 19 09:26:41 I was :D Feb 19 09:28:27 :-) Feb 19 09:36:25 is there already emulator and SDK for MeeGo? Feb 19 09:37:04 pasi: nope Feb 19 09:37:17 they promised an sdk for q2 Feb 19 09:39:26 ok, thanks. So only way to look MeeGo now is to get the kickstart and image from repository and install it /test livecd? Feb 19 09:42:11 Yes, seems to be Moblin images but its pretty much same as MeeGo. Feb 19 09:43:15 is the pkgmanager war over ? Feb 19 09:43:23 +hi Feb 19 09:45:19 I think that it's still better to keep helmet. Feb 19 09:46:13 pasi: MeeGo 1.0 will be Moblin 2.2 + some Nokia Qt apps, I believe. So currently, thats the best way to get what's available Feb 19 09:46:27 Though as I understand it, the Nokia apps aren't submitted yet Feb 19 09:46:34 or available in the repo at least Feb 19 09:47:59 lwn has a (subscriber only) meego article as well Feb 19 09:48:03 slaine: Ok, thanks. so lets burn some disks Feb 19 09:48:09 * villemv has no access though Feb 19 09:48:58 slaine_: what nokia qt apps? any idea? Feb 19 09:49:13 I'd imagine meego 1.0 to be moblin 2.2, period ;-) Feb 19 09:49:24 pasi: ewww, disks. Feb 19 09:49:45 slaine_: ok, just one. Feb 19 09:49:47 villemv: we don't know yet, but the inclusion of some Qt apps has been mentioned Feb 19 09:50:11 What and how many I guess depends on the dev teams involved. Feb 19 09:50:14 mentioned where? one those colossal mailing list threads? Feb 19 09:50:31 villemv: those don't exist Feb 19 09:50:37 press releases Feb 19 09:50:38 either here or #moblin Feb 19 09:51:01 that's my understanding anyways. Feb 19 09:58:08 I thought Meego 1.0 = Maemo 6 .. this is all very confusing. I guess we have to wait for Meego 2.0 Feb 19 09:58:26 nah, m6 is a 'meego instance', which i'm sure is going to come back to haunt nokia claiming Feb 19 09:59:04 MelisU: The full integration won't happen 'til then for sure. At this point, maemo6 and moblin 2.2 are too far along to kill them off Feb 19 09:59:45 So both will have some level of cross fertilizing with the platform shift happening for maemo6+1 Feb 19 09:59:53 at least, that's my best guess Feb 19 09:59:57 well, at the moment it is not like either Moblin or Maemo has any traction and so the uproar if they get most scrapped will be limited (outside of IRC and mailling list of course) Feb 19 10:00:23 I think Intel have contractual obligations to ship Moblin 2.2 to some OEM's Feb 19 10:01:46 maybe they both have to communicate a bit more (be clearer) to the outside world Feb 19 10:02:13 so Meego knows where they are standing Feb 19 10:02:47 right now I have the feeling that nobody knows what the merge will actually mean. That might be wrong, but that's where the better communication comes into play :) Feb 19 10:03:23 exactly what i wanted to say Feb 19 10:04:01 are there some community surveys about this project ? to see where it can go ? Feb 19 10:04:14 or could it be that the details are actually kept secret by Nokia and Intel until the first version is released? Feb 19 10:04:30 well, the most common would be "to hell" if judging by the deb to rpm move, rzr ;) Feb 19 10:05:03 and the complaints people have ;) Feb 19 10:05:09 this makes me worry yeah Feb 19 10:05:18 i don't worry and neither should you Feb 19 10:05:18 :P Feb 19 10:05:58 ppl have to get over the rpm deb issue and just accept a decicion being made Feb 19 10:06:44 accepting is not acceptable Feb 19 10:07:09 rzr: somewhere someone had to put a line in the sand, if we are to have a production quality product Feb 19 10:07:34 i can understand this Feb 19 10:07:38 if you want to have surveys, that's all you are going to end up with Feb 19 10:07:53 canonical is semi-suggesful because it's not a democracy Feb 19 10:07:56 * w00t_ wanders in Feb 19 10:08:00 morning, meego Feb 19 10:08:00 succesful Feb 19 10:08:09 anyway this project is interessing to understand how can free projects can merge Feb 19 10:08:29 neither maemo core or moblin are community projects Feb 19 10:08:41 mer is Feb 19 10:08:46 even if the software within is Feb 19 10:08:57 well when we shoot Stskeeps Feb 19 10:09:08 :) Feb 19 10:10:07 anyway maemo and cannonical are relying on a community project , probally moblin does this too Feb 19 10:10:25 rzr: maemo doesn't rely on a community project, but the tables are changed a bit now :P Feb 19 10:10:30 that's a compromise i can deal Feb 19 10:10:39 moin Feb 19 10:10:44 Stskeeps: what about debian ? Feb 19 10:10:57 * lbt_ stabs lbt Feb 19 10:11:07 rzr: not relying on it Feb 19 10:11:17 I really hope this will go somewhere, but maybe it is already too late. Google is cloud-supercharing Android to the point where it will become the Linux of choice Feb 19 10:11:45 MelisU: if we can make meego -very easy- to port, we have a very compelling niche Feb 19 10:11:53 Stskeeps: so they revrote all debian packages ? ... humm Feb 19 10:12:08 rzr: no, as in, forked once, kept on working on it Feb 19 10:12:31 every Android device can get turn-by-turn, Google Goggles AND you can even get ad money from Google. VERY hard to beat Feb 19 10:12:56 MelisU: and that has what? to do with linux? Feb 19 10:13:11 MelisU: err.. no Feb 19 10:13:17 Stskeeps: well we say the same thing using opposite words Feb 19 10:13:23 MelisU: port android to your device, you don't get google apps Feb 19 10:13:55 Stskeeps: I was talking about device manufactures . Feb 19 10:15:01 I just hope Qt 4.7 with QML etc. will tip the scale .. it is soo much better than Android Feb 19 10:15:20 Is Android itself completely open source? Feb 19 10:15:22 MelisU: anyway as an android developer i dont think i'll buy any android phone Feb 19 10:15:52 MelisU: so there is a market for geeks like us Feb 19 10:16:15 rzr: I want my phone to be a real computer too, but most people don't really care. Google perks and the big name does it for them Feb 19 10:16:21 when 4.7 should be out? Feb 19 10:16:46 Qt releases every 9 month I think Feb 19 10:16:57 so 10.10 Feb 19 10:16:59 MelisU: same for fast food , they didnt own all restorants Feb 19 10:17:14 It's going into feature freeze today iirc :) Feb 19 10:17:56 some days ago, thiago was saying earlier that 4.7 is aimed at the first half of this year, 4.8 hopefully by the end of the year, though of course this was a very informal discussion Feb 19 10:18:01 (wrt Qt) Feb 19 10:18:41 rzr: I am not arguing about Meegos merits .. it has a lot. But I talkiing about getting enough traction to attract lots of app devs and many device manus Feb 19 10:19:39 MelisU: you'll start with existing apps that can not be ported to android or iphone Feb 19 10:19:45 w00t_: Cool, I thought Qt was on 9 month cycle .. but 4.8 this year would be awesome. What does 4.8 bring? Feb 19 10:19:53 MelisU: too early to tell, really Feb 19 10:20:04 MelisU: but i see what you mean, i wish i can get paid to work on thoses gnu plateforms Feb 19 10:20:12 Official support for Android and iPhone? ;) Feb 19 10:20:15 I do know that QML was merged to master recently, so that will be in 4.7 Feb 19 10:20:30 (mmm, wishful thinking ;) ) Feb 19 10:20:30 leinir: don't laugh, someone apparantly got native client working on android Feb 19 10:20:31 :P Feb 19 10:20:43 Oh i know that :) Note the "official" bit up there ;) Feb 19 10:20:47 hehe Feb 19 10:20:57 w00t_: native client on what ? Feb 19 10:21:00 gut feeling is that I think it will happen, I don't know when though Feb 19 10:21:05 rzr: "on android" Feb 19 10:21:09 read the rest of the line :) Feb 19 10:21:12 rzr: just a second... Feb 19 10:21:23 w00t_: of what ? Feb 19 10:21:39 qt ? Feb 19 10:21:44 Qt, leinir is digging up the link I guess Feb 19 10:21:48 yes they did that Feb 19 10:21:59 on iphone too Feb 19 10:22:10 but integration will probally suck Feb 19 10:22:18 well i hope not Feb 19 10:22:20 who knows Feb 19 10:22:31 early days Feb 19 10:22:33 give it some time Feb 19 10:22:51 leinir: that's what you are searching : http://www.newlc.com/en/qt-port-android-platform-watch-android-lighthouse-video Feb 19 10:23:21 http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4167 Feb 19 10:23:25 that :) Feb 19 10:25:15 ok same project Feb 19 10:26:02 if Qt were to run on all platforms (iPhone, Android etc.) it would help. But I guess Windows Phone 7 Series will not allow native code .. just .NET Feb 19 10:26:40 and .net is slow..clr eats memory. Feb 19 10:26:47 bah Feb 19 10:27:02 MelisU: did they break backwards compatibility? (not that i'd blame them, just wondering) Feb 19 10:27:02 everything but pure asm "eats memory" Feb 19 10:27:09 :-D Feb 19 10:27:30 pasi: you can see that in some of the WP7S videos .. it lags Feb 19 10:28:05 Shrik3: start writing asm :p you'll b efinished in 50years :p Feb 19 10:28:38 and thus the point of .NET on wmo7 comes up =) Feb 19 10:28:58 it's really easy to do software on .NET compared to say … symbian Feb 19 10:29:21 leinir: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/18/windows-phone-7-development-policies-and-guidelines-leaked/ Feb 19 10:29:27 heh, thats so true. Symbian has been for me hardest Feb 19 10:29:51 and by easy I mean visual basic drag&drop easy Feb 19 10:30:01 it's pretty close to Qt in portability from mobile to desktop Feb 19 10:30:04 (and web) Feb 19 10:30:09 .net is productive..very productive. All goods doesn't comes in one package Feb 19 10:30:48 yeah, MS has good tools. Qtcreator needs a good emulator that supports cross compilation etc. .. Meego needs a lot of stuff Feb 19 10:34:20 hmm, btw. I don't think that installing QT to Win7 phones will be impossible. Well of course it depends about MS marketing..but I forget MS phones now and concentrate to MeeGo Feb 19 10:35:17 re Feb 19 10:35:26 what's new? :) Feb 19 10:36:23 ok, stupid question, admittedly Feb 19 10:42:47 anyone already installed meego from repo? Im using default kickstart from http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/ia32/os/image-config/ . Seems to taking a lot of files. There is virtual machine ks also. Anyone using that? Feb 19 10:46:08 pasi: i'm still indexing moblin, and i have a moblin2.1 vm Feb 19 10:47:47 timeless_mbp: I didn't get very far investigating that vm issue last night Feb 19 10:48:05 uxlaunch is the problem alright, I just didn't get to debug it Feb 19 10:48:08 I'll have a go later Feb 19 10:48:48 * timeless_mbp frowns Feb 19 10:48:52 slaine_: strange Feb 19 10:49:08 * timeless_mbp seems to have confused directory names Feb 19 10:49:44 ? Feb 19 10:49:51 your indexer ? Feb 19 10:50:06 yeah Feb 19 10:50:13 i seem to have both moblin.org and meego.com Feb 19 10:50:22 oh Feb 19 10:50:26 * timeless_mbp did something stupid Feb 19 10:56:14 ok, grabbing repo.moblin :) Feb 19 10:56:18 err repo.meego Feb 19 10:56:20 whatever :) Feb 19 10:57:37 timeless get some sleep :) seems you ened it Feb 19 10:57:46 bva: i sleep on weekends Feb 19 10:57:53 my weekend starts in ~3 hrs Feb 19 10:58:34 yea sleep is a waste of time but we have to do it.. wrr. Feb 19 10:58:39 I've put up a Glossary/abbreviation page in the wiki, with some limited initial entries, if anyone feels the need to contribute :) http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary Feb 19 10:58:44 sleep is overrated Feb 19 10:58:57 Amby: can you use some other syntax? Feb 19 10:59:13 a hyphen or something to distinguish between a name and the meaning Feb 19 10:59:15 timeless_mbp: meaning? Feb 19 10:59:19 or a newline or ... Feb 19 10:59:30 IIRC - If I Recall Correctly Feb 19 10:59:32 as opposed to Feb 19 10:59:32 relying on or isn't very nice Feb 19 10:59:39 IIRC If I Recall Correctly Feb 19 10:59:47 sure, what would be better? Feb 19 11:00:00 as w00t_ wrote will suffice Feb 19 11:00:10 you don't need to remove the strong Feb 19 11:00:15 although i'd suggest instead Feb 19 11:00:29 -- i defer to w00t_ on presentation Feb 19 11:00:52 you should also find the maemo wiki page that lists abbreviations Feb 19 11:01:03 you should list it under 'useful links' Feb 19 11:01:08 somehow my newline did not go through and I'm at work. But I'll do that tonight - or you can simply modify, I have no emotianal attachment to my formatting ;) Feb 19 11:01:21 i have no time to do it, i need sleep Feb 19 11:01:31 if i do everything, how will anyone else learn? :) Feb 19 11:01:37 damn, default.ks didn't work. Feb 19 11:01:39 timeless_mbp: I was searching for that in maemo wiki - did not find in 5 mins Feb 19 11:02:26 slaine_: so, about ~/.rpmmacros Feb 19 11:02:35 it's cute, but what if i want two distinct .rpmmacros files? Feb 19 11:02:42 (one for moblin, one for meego) Feb 19 11:02:49 Anyway, first draft is under http://wiki.meego.com/Glossary and I'll come back in 7 hours to complete a proper first version, if nobody is jumping on it :) Feb 19 11:03:12 have a good weekend Feb 19 11:04:42 slaine_: ok, wtf Feb 19 11:05:29 [timeless@domU-12-31-39-0A-8C-36 SRPMS]$ curl -o - http://repo.meego.com/trunk/repo/source/ConsoleKit-0.4.1-5.3.src.rpm 2>/dev/null|grep moved Feb 19 11:05:29

The document has moved here.

Feb 19 11:05:40 so basically repo.meego.com/trunk/repo is just a joke Feb 19 11:06:58 timeless_mbp: moblin drop will be in 2 to 3 weeks afaik. Feb 19 11:07:16 X-Fade: so why did they bother creating a directory which just redirects to another server? Feb 19 11:07:24 couldn't they be nice and um.... not do that? Feb 19 11:07:29 timeless_mbp: To have something there? :) Feb 19 11:07:33 No idea. Feb 19 11:07:40 i'd rather the directory itself redirected Feb 19 11:16:37 random note, I hate hate hate redirects like that Feb 19 11:16:41 google.com does it too and it annoys me Feb 19 11:17:06 Feb 19 11:17:51 * w00t_ goes back to introducing a proper privacy policy at work for the first time in 6 years of operation Feb 19 11:18:48 a new lock at the toilet? Feb 19 11:19:04 removing the camera at the girl's part Feb 19 11:19:18 adding walls to the cubicles will help Feb 19 11:19:40 people stopping being idiots is always helpful Feb 19 11:21:53 lol Feb 19 11:25:38 grr, I wish I had a faster office machine Feb 19 11:25:42 this one cannot keep up with me Feb 19 11:26:20 * timeless_mbp needs to go shopping for a new hdd Feb 19 11:27:45 timeless_mbp: get me a new machine while you're at it Feb 19 11:27:57 a 6 year old P4 is just not cutting it Feb 19 11:28:02 w00t_: it took me 3 or 4 people to get approval for a new hdd Feb 19 11:28:13 timeless_mbp: at least you *got* approval Feb 19 11:28:14 :P Feb 19 11:28:15 * timeless_mbp frowns Feb 19 11:28:29 i just got a reminder for an event that happened 4 hours ago Feb 19 11:28:29 timeless_mbp: sorry was in meetings Feb 19 11:28:34 something has to terminally die here before we replace it Feb 19 11:28:47 ah, meego repo redirects to moblin repo Feb 19 11:28:52 cunning Feb 19 11:28:54 slaine_: please ask the guy who setup the meego repo url to fix it so that it doesn't do what it's doing Feb 19 11:29:01 as w00t_ note, google does not approve Feb 19 11:29:03 I'm just a user Feb 19 11:29:15 slaine_: if you have better access to the guy who did it, :) Feb 19 11:31:56 http://www.tuxjournal.net/?p=11201 traslet in english LG GW990: video first smartphone con MeeGo, is true? Feb 19 11:33:14 deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb deb Feb 19 11:33:55 detective: not funny anymore Feb 19 11:33:56 :P Feb 19 11:33:59 :D Feb 19 11:34:02 ah come on Feb 19 11:34:05 EMERGE WORLD! Feb 19 11:51:42 niqt: sort of, ish... It's not running MeeGo there, it's Moblin :) Feb 19 11:52:13 ok Feb 19 11:52:16 thnaks Feb 19 12:19:36 Meego. YouGo? WeeGo! Feb 19 12:25:28 CosmoHill: nice ^^ Feb 19 12:25:33 :D Feb 19 12:26:08 in my head there are two cartoon people jumping up doing a high five going "yay!" Feb 19 12:26:08 ThereYaGO would have been a lot better ;) Feb 19 12:26:58 wish I could animate now Feb 19 12:27:20 animate at all :) Feb 19 12:27:47 i know the style i want it in too Feb 19 12:32:03 :o Feb 19 12:32:17 contains swearing: http://www.khaoskomix.com/cgi-bin/comic.cgi?chp=6&page=57 Feb 19 12:32:26 2nd panel down Feb 19 12:38:06 some thoughts about Mer now that MeeGo exists: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mer-project-just-bunch-of-redshirts.html Feb 19 13:20:02 Eeek, someone's gone and capitalised "maemo.org" on Who's who Feb 19 13:20:24 heh Feb 19 13:22:57 lol Feb 19 13:23:56 http://wiki.meego.com/index.php?title=Who%27s_who&diff=326&oldid=325 Feb 19 13:24:21 * Jaffa would correct, but meeting time Feb 19 13:26:41 Jaffa, corrected. Feb 19 13:26:49 hello Feb 19 13:27:33 hello blino Feb 19 13:31:32 do you have any idea yet which multimedia framework is going to be used in MeeGo ? Feb 19 13:31:44 would that be phonon, qtmobility, gstreamer? Feb 19 13:32:50 I'm not sure it's been explicitly said. But Phonon doesn't exclude GStreamer anyway. Feb 19 13:33:35 qtmobility + gstreamer Feb 19 13:33:59 well, qtmobility wraps gstreamer Feb 19 13:34:19 (guessing) Feb 19 13:34:34 + qtmultimedia Feb 19 13:37:58 i'd be relying on qtmultimedia, yeah Feb 19 13:46:26 I assume the Qt Mobility Multimedia API, which there easily can be written back ends for.. So IMO it doesn't matter if MeeGo ships with xine or gstreamer or somethign else. I assuem different devices will have different backends Feb 19 14:07:14 * bva thinks that giving support over satelite connections to Afrika really is NOT fun! Feb 19 14:36:50 my guess is gstreamer will be part of the platform Feb 19 14:37:15 it's on the diagrams iirc Feb 19 14:37:43 it'll definitely be in MeeGo 1.0 for netnooks Feb 19 14:37:54 yah and in harmattan Feb 19 14:37:56 as the mediaplayer there is based on MX and clutter-gst Feb 19 14:44:21 there was discussion on the ML about it recently, zaheerm, and from what was said, you're right :) Feb 19 14:48:23 it is a pity that the phonon gst backend isn't good Feb 19 14:50:22 * arjan wakes up Feb 19 14:50:27 moin arauho Feb 19 14:50:28 .. Feb 19 14:50:29 arjan Feb 19 14:50:31 morning arjan Feb 19 14:50:40 yeah on media, it's gstreamer as backend Feb 19 14:50:45 and the qt layer on top for apps Feb 19 14:50:56 * w00t_ nods Feb 19 14:51:01 I'll leave it to the qt guys to say which qt api that is Feb 19 14:52:21 phonon Feb 19 14:52:39 (there's sort of a rule of thumb; if maemo and moblin both use the same thing, it's 99% sure the same in meego) Feb 19 14:53:28 and Qt trumps gtk Feb 19 14:54:03 get arjan Feb 19 14:54:06 and w00t_ Feb 19 14:54:59 * w00t_ eyes Cosmo|Uni? Feb 19 14:55:17 hey* Feb 19 14:55:27 i duno how i say "get" instead if "hey" Feb 19 14:55:39 of* Feb 19 14:56:02 Cosmo, your right hand was off-by-one. Feb 19 14:56:06 clearly today is not a good day for you to type Feb 19 14:56:13 :) Feb 19 14:56:30 hehe Feb 19 14:56:36 a typical case of mondayitis on a friday Feb 19 14:56:50 I've spent the last hour and a half swearing at a computer / doing a tutorial Feb 19 14:56:51 * Stskeeps looks around for loose change for the coffee machine at polish classes Feb 19 14:56:52 Woot, it's friday Feb 19 14:57:02 * w00t_ steals all Stskeeps' change Feb 19 14:57:30 w00t_'s in your p0ck375 stealing your change Feb 19 14:57:33 today class, we will be using a feature that has been removed from the version cosmo has Feb 19 14:57:57 Qt trumps gtk, but lizard trumps Qt Feb 19 14:58:11 and lizard tastes better Feb 19 14:58:26 Amby, fire beats rock, paper _and_ scissors Feb 19 14:58:32 * slaine_ is currently installing qt and qt-creator to see what all the fuss is over Feb 19 15:00:17 slaine_: :) Feb 19 15:03:26 tutorial and everything, hmm, I've not time now, I'll check it later Feb 19 15:03:46 will the UI scale to a netbook screen ? Feb 19 15:05:45 i'd imagine so Feb 19 15:06:13 i'd see it as a waste of resources if it didn't use all of the screen Feb 19 15:07:40 i need to find a good place for my PC Feb 19 15:08:19 So, how would the five weapon RPS game go in MeeGo world? deb, rpm, obs, tarball, scratchbox? Feb 19 15:09:23 rpm is the meego package manager Feb 19 15:10:23 not package manager Feb 19 15:10:25 packaging format Feb 19 15:10:36 just to nitpick on that Feb 19 15:10:43 ah sorry Feb 19 15:10:52 yum or whatever would be the package manager Feb 19 15:11:54 zypper Feb 19 15:12:08 i may have to steal that for my distro :) Feb 19 15:26:09 hi I'm a mobile technician and developer and I wanted to know what I can do to get linux on a nokia e65, it is possible? Feb 19 15:27:12 If MeeGo has done anything Feb 19 15:27:47 it's rekindle my belief that geeks have the ability to bikker about anything for more than a lifetime without ever reaching a conclusion -- or even approaching one Feb 19 15:27:47 slaine_: it will be usable, but obviously, with differing sizes you will most likely want to rethink the UI for different size devices Feb 19 15:28:09 w00t_: I meant qt-creator itself Feb 19 15:28:20 I might look at it on my netbook on the commute home this evening Feb 19 15:28:30 slaine_: mm. i wouldn't personally want to use it on a small screen, but it might be usable Feb 19 15:28:36 just a quick question, will Nokia N900 support Meego? Feb 19 15:29:01 classic: short answer is "maybe", longer answer is "too early to tell, really" Feb 19 15:29:25 thanks Feb 19 15:29:44 Guys, I'm answering again, I'm debian/ubuntu/general developer and a hobbiest as a mobile technician, I want to know if I can install some linux on E65, I can flash eeprom, do firmware upgrade, whatever it takes, I just want to know if it can be done Feb 19 15:30:42 blackxored: my guess is that the lack of an answer would indicate that nobody knows for sure - I certainly don't as I've never had experience with an E65 Feb 19 15:30:48 patience is a virtue Feb 19 15:31:01 but yes, be patient, maybe someone who knows more will wander in Feb 19 15:31:11 w00t_, so let's rephrase that then, linux on a S60 phone? anyone? Feb 19 15:32:00 same answer for me at least Feb 19 15:33:45 arjan: any chance of getting the qt-creator stuff into the moblin 2.1 repo's ? Feb 19 15:34:01 blackxored: what kind of CPU does it have? ... if it is supported by the kernel, well, then you have a theoretic chance ... it then depends on what kind of hardware is driving the display and other I/O like keypads etc .... if the kernel got support for those devices, then it's getting closer Feb 19 15:34:09 slaine_: I'll ask around Feb 19 15:34:10 GeneralAntilles: ta for fixing the capitalisation Feb 19 15:34:25 I don't want to install trunk just yet Feb 19 15:34:31 thanks Feb 19 15:34:56 blackxored, you may need to know someone at nokia to do that... Feb 19 15:35:06 dazo, the cpu Feb 19 15:35:07 Dual ARM 9 220 MHz processor Feb 19 15:35:12 blackxored: so ... figure out what kind of hardware the E65 got first ... then check out what kind of drivers you need to at least get display and keyboard to work ... Feb 19 15:35:24 and of course, I'm making an assumption that qt-creator etc are in moblin trunk ;) Feb 19 15:35:35 * slaine_ goes check Feb 19 15:35:44 supposedly moblin runs on arm Feb 19 15:35:52 moblin does not Feb 19 15:35:54 meego will Feb 19 15:35:55 blackxored: not yet Feb 19 15:35:56 i don't think so Feb 19 15:36:07 moblin = intel Feb 19 15:36:07 arjan, meego I meant, thanks Feb 19 15:36:14 the other one = arm Feb 19 15:36:18 meego = both :) Feb 19 15:36:35 yeah yeah I know, it was a mistak Feb 19 15:36:45 so, i have an arm processor, will it run Feb 19 15:36:47 ? Feb 19 15:36:51 blackxored, the issue is more on how you're going to flash your phone... Feb 19 15:36:55 there's a gap between running on a processor, and running on a system Feb 19 15:36:59 arjan: and a couple of weeks yet for moblin trunk to become meego trunk then I assume ? Feb 19 15:37:00 the gap is a huge list of device drivers Feb 19 15:37:26 arjan, what do I exactly need to know before proceeding with the flash? Feb 19 15:37:26 the processor is only one part of the system Feb 19 15:38:36 i wonder if it will be like the ipod, you can flash it but if all goes wrong you can still access it to reflash it Feb 19 15:38:42 blackxored: my suggestion is that it's unlikely to just work Feb 19 15:38:53 blackxored: it's not something for the faint of heart lets put it that way Feb 19 15:39:11 if nobody ever did it before... think "3 year project" Feb 19 15:39:11 CosmoHill, yeah I can revive it if I kill it Feb 19 15:39:33 I have flashing boxes Feb 19 15:41:29 blackxored: TI has some linux stuff for omap1710 reference board.. I guess you can start looking at those Feb 19 15:41:48 Nitial, enlighten me Feb 19 15:42:37 google 'omap1710 linux' and you will get to TI linux community Feb 19 15:43:23 too lazy to copypaste the link with n900 ;) Feb 19 15:44:57 I'm interested in getting a Tegra dev board, is there such a thing available outside the us ? Feb 19 15:48:51 there were a few at MWC earlier in the week Feb 19 15:49:07 saw some on ARM's stand Feb 19 15:51:14 moin Feb 19 16:02:01 stupid printer Feb 19 16:02:11 it says it out of paper, i just press a button and it works Feb 19 16:02:30 * arjan suggests the "Office Space" method Feb 19 16:02:46 done that once Feb 19 16:03:09 throw it across my bedroom Feb 19 16:03:51 Guys i have a offtopic question, what irc client do you use? Feb 19 16:04:11 something feel out but it stills works so i couldn't have been important Feb 19 16:04:16 ircii Feb 19 16:04:24 bva: xchat aqua (mac os x) Feb 19 16:04:25 And Maemo5 version of XChat Feb 19 16:04:29 irssi Feb 19 16:04:47 command line + screen? Feb 19 16:04:58 indeed Feb 19 16:05:11 yeah, i'm kindof working from a windows pc :s Feb 19 16:05:16 i sometimes tunnel in via ssh from uni Feb 19 16:05:29 bva: pidgin? Feb 19 16:05:34 i use pidgin over ssh, works nice Feb 19 16:05:36 go irssi Feb 19 16:05:47 i would use empathy, if they ever add proper irc support to it Feb 19 16:06:36 bva: There are windows versions of xchat around, pidgin will do as well. Or go the irssi+screen route if you have ssh acces to some *nix box. Feb 19 16:07:26 erc probably works on windows Feb 19 16:08:01 Or irssi on cygwin... Feb 19 16:09:06 mmmm ... going to use the ssh tunnel. thanks anyway. Didnt knew it was so badly these thays with Wdws IRC clients Feb 19 16:09:52 mIRC is common on windows Feb 19 16:10:05 yeah but you have to pay for that :) Feb 19 16:10:29 well, you have to pay for windows too, so what do you expect :) Feb 19 16:10:36 xchat is free Feb 19 16:10:37 True, that's also common on windows (unless it's spyware) ;) Feb 19 16:10:43 windows programmers have to pay for all those windows licences somehow Feb 19 16:11:06 aha found irsii windows ...! Feb 19 16:11:08 windows fail Feb 19 16:11:13 http://www.silverex.org/ etc Feb 19 16:12:21 Or, if you keep running into these kind of issues, install andLinux. Worked wonders for me in the past. Feb 19 16:12:55 yeah I have a linux downstairs on my tower pc but its cold there :p Feb 19 16:13:46 Ah, so the cpu load is just to low? ;) Feb 19 16:16:03 héhé no there is no heating :p Feb 19 16:16:34 Maybe I should try some benchmarks to heat is up Feb 19 16:16:56 anyway thanks for the help Feb 19 16:16:57 You might be suprised about how well that works... Feb 19 16:16:58 just took my master degree in molecular biology and genetics. :D Feb 19 16:17:19 * ptl happy Feb 19 16:23:55 I modified (layout) http://www.wiki.meego.com/Glossary a bit, I hope its okay that way? Feb 19 16:25:16 no, it became horrible, you really screwed up! Shame on you! Feb 19 16:25:26 kidding! Feb 19 16:25:31 :) Feb 19 16:25:40 I saw the sarcasm :p Feb 19 16:25:43 I can't even see the page, it says Not Found - The requested URL /Glossary was not found on this server. Feb 19 16:26:03 www.wiki ? Feb 19 16:26:05 there is a link on the mainpage Feb 19 16:26:13 :P Feb 19 16:26:17 took the www off and it worked Feb 19 16:26:27 oops, I guess Feb 19 16:27:18 FWIW: BME description is not good. It doesn't say what it is. It just mentions what it does Feb 19 16:28:21 I kind of didnt create the text :) just did the layout Feb 19 16:41:49 WOW, QML is so awesome. Meego really needs to advertise it. It totally rocks. Especially for different devices. Cool stuff. Feb 19 16:42:24 http://qt.nokia.com/doc/main-snapshot/declarativeui.html Feb 19 16:42:44 MelisU: have you tried it? Feb 19 16:43:23 damien_l: I just found that link. But I intend to play with that "Same game" example tonight Feb 19 16:43:52 Any Qt devs around? Will QML apps have startup lag like Python apps? Feb 19 16:44:56 I'll ask in #qt :) Feb 19 16:57:20 MelisU: QML apps now have a lag Feb 19 16:57:44 but otoh it's not "final" technology and this can be speeded up Feb 19 16:58:09 I spent a lot of time reading the many pages of talk.maemo.org -and meego.com- but still nobody seems to get a definite answer, so any one got some news on this? with the introduction of meego is the N900 a dead road? I WAS planning to get one soon Feb 19 16:59:20 smhar, just like with maemo6, there is no official word on the n900 getting the update Feb 19 16:59:27 but no word doesn't mean dead end Feb 19 16:59:27 smhar: Stskeeps will port Meego for n900 ;-) Feb 19 16:59:55 right, the community may port whatever they want for the n900 Feb 19 17:00:03 i plan on getting one in the near future Feb 19 17:26:05 is anyone getting decent speeds off the moblin repo ? Feb 19 17:26:18 I'm only getting 20kB/s for the qt-doc rpms Feb 19 17:43:20 bva_irssi: thanks for the Glossary wiki update Feb 19 17:58:20 ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Feb 19 17:59:00 bhhhhhhhhhh Feb 19 17:59:01 wtf is going on with moblin repo Feb 19 17:59:20 I'm getting 17kB/s, at best Feb 19 18:02:47 moblin needs more bw Feb 19 18:05:06 itdock: it's not just me then ? Feb 19 18:05:16 no i had issues with it yesterday Feb 19 18:05:21 sigh Feb 19 18:05:56 must be the millions of MeeGo developers joining Feb 19 18:06:15 or the milliona of maemo users seeing WTF this Moblin thing is ;) Feb 19 18:06:20 slaine_: fwiw it's also mirrored on kernel.org Feb 19 18:06:28 and those guys have real bandwidth Feb 19 18:06:50 nod, I was going to change my repo Feb 19 18:07:07 but I've to leave in 5 mins, so I'll skip it 'til I get home Feb 19 18:09:35 itdock: what are you d/ling exactly and from where? Feb 19 18:09:57 was downloading the moblin netbook iso yesterday i was getting abysmal speeds Feb 19 18:09:58 I was pulling the qt-doc rpm Feb 19 18:10:25 qt-doc is indeed a large file... Feb 19 18:10:28 from where? Feb 19 18:10:38 didn't really need it, just qt-devel for now Feb 19 18:10:44 creating a qt-creator package for moblin 2.1 Feb 19 18:11:00 why bother with 2.1 :) Feb 19 18:11:12 'cause that's whats on my netbook Feb 19 18:11:18 I see Feb 19 18:11:30 it'll be in 2.2, I mean MeeGo 1.0 Feb 19 18:11:32 :) Feb 19 18:20:57 Right, so~ any news? :D Feb 19 18:21:18 todo with meego? no Feb 19 18:21:46 yay! f12 arm as the base for meego arm! w00t! :D Feb 19 18:22:01 * w00t_ eyes th0br0 Feb 19 18:22:06 is there a public repo for meego or it is way too early for that ? :) Feb 19 18:22:07 :P w00t_ Feb 19 18:22:18 hwoarang: afaik we'll have that in ~2 weeks time Feb 19 18:22:20 hwoarang: too early - first code is expected in 2-3 weeks I think Feb 19 18:22:34 i see. thank you both :) Feb 19 18:52:36 Hi Feb 19 18:52:45 /who Feb 19 18:52:56 lol? Feb 19 18:55:15 /wtf Feb 19 18:55:16 :-) Feb 19 18:58:33 * RST38h yawns again Feb 19 19:00:57 is the n900's gps incompatible with gpsd? Feb 19 19:01:13 is that the reason for locator-daemon or whatever it's called? Feb 19 19:01:27 IIRC, locator-daemon does the agps stuff Feb 19 19:11:23 community ML is working apparently (: Feb 19 19:16:05 indeed Tm_T Feb 19 19:16:12 only there haven't been any replies yet Feb 19 19:22:26 th0br0: I blame you Feb 19 19:22:37 blame! blame! who is to blame? Feb 19 19:22:41 and for what am i to blame? Feb 19 19:23:54 sounds like the opening of an opera. Feb 19 19:29:33 th0br0: the mail mess I just went thru in half-panic (: Feb 19 19:30:10 huh Tm_T? Feb 19 19:30:30 th0br0: see if my reply got to ML finally Feb 19 19:31:02 ah Tm_T Feb 19 19:31:31 it did Feb 19 19:31:35 wow (: Feb 19 19:32:11 bit hard, no "reply to ML" for me, had to copy-paste the address Feb 19 19:32:39 hugs! :D Feb 19 19:32:49 i get a "reply list" here, though Feb 19 19:33:18 * Tm_T huggles th0br0 Feb 19 19:33:28 :) Feb 19 19:33:30 * th0br0 huggles Tm_T back ;) Feb 19 19:38:07 oo hugs Feb 19 19:39:44 hugs? Feb 19 19:39:51 * arachnist needs a hug... Feb 19 19:48:41 * auke hands out free hugs Feb 19 19:49:20 are the mailing lists turning that toxic that this place feels like heaven compared? ;) Feb 19 19:50:38 almost afraid to catch up on my mail Feb 19 19:52:29 * Tm_T huggles Stskeeps and arachnist Feb 19 19:53:11 ...and by the end of this month whole meego community AND project has been turned into pink pony worship cult Feb 19 19:53:34 has/will Feb 19 19:53:40 like maemo turned into a bacon worshipping cult Feb 19 19:55:32 Mmm, bacon Feb 19 19:55:34 I prefer pink ponys Feb 19 19:55:43 Pink pony bacon Feb 19 19:55:46 mee too, i'm vegan Feb 19 19:55:51 BaDa, ChumBy, MaeMo, MeeGo, MobLin, MyLo Feb 19 19:55:59 * CosmoHill hugs arachnist Feb 19 19:56:14 :) Feb 19 19:56:34 i brought hugs to the #lfs-support :D Feb 19 19:57:45 Maeblin. Feb 19 19:58:02 also, since when was Maemo a open community projet? Feb 19 19:58:12 since monday Feb 19 19:58:20 are these people delusional about how maemo was developed? Feb 19 19:58:54 Maeblin sound too much like that Chuck Berry song. Feb 19 19:59:01 i'd never heard of maemo until tuesday Feb 19 19:59:11 I still can't spell it, i have to copy someone else's spelling Feb 19 19:59:44 hahaha Feb 19 19:59:52 Stskeeps: according to a video I watched earlier this week, the brain switches the logical part off when onefeels threatened Feb 19 20:00:17 so if i ask about the nokia project or "the non-moblin" i mean maemo Feb 19 20:00:22 Ma eBlin Feb 19 20:00:33 suihkulokki: that would explain it, ues Feb 19 20:00:33 RST38h: that sounds like a cat Feb 19 20:00:35 yes Feb 19 20:04:04 Stskeeps, turned? Feb 19 20:04:18 i believe it was baconified long before i arrived Feb 19 20:04:26 i just rendered it Feb 19 20:04:45 CosmoHill: Sounds way different, for people with different backgrounds Feb 19 20:05:08 I read a comic with a cat called Eben in itr Feb 19 20:06:22 What was the URL of the meego repository egain? Feb 19 20:06:41 i didn't think there was one yet Feb 19 20:07:13 I mean the one were all the moblin packages where Feb 19 20:08:35 ~save Feb 19 20:08:36 saved user and chan files Feb 19 20:08:38 ~logs Feb 19 20:08:39 All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Feb 19 20:08:43 Bva_: repo.meego.com Feb 19 20:08:53 thanks Feb 19 20:09:06 ~lart DocScrutinizer Feb 19 20:09:06 * infobot chops DocScrutinizer in half with a free Solaris 7 CD Feb 19 20:09:07 TimRiker: earlier logs are at logs.nslu2-linux.org if you want to grab them Feb 19 20:09:17 so why is this line not logged, duh! Feb 19 20:09:30 TimRiker: heh :-D Feb 19 20:09:40 because you are not worthy to be logged Feb 19 20:09:49 * RST38h cackles evilly Feb 19 20:09:52 anyone listened to latest linux outlaws Feb 19 20:09:59 annoying fud about meego Feb 19 20:10:00 th0br0, so you can type that sekrit 1337 stuph Feb 19 20:10:10 fud? Feb 19 20:10:26 \/\/007. 1 4|\/| 50 |337 Feb 19 20:10:26 you know, "maemo looked promising and now they are killing it" Feb 19 20:10:33 so we have 2 logbots? Feb 19 20:10:34 nokia totally screwed their developers Feb 19 20:10:35 etc etc Feb 19 20:11:56 i wonder if we had a summit soon that there would be fistfights over rpm vs deb Feb 19 20:12:49 bring a few molotovs just in case Feb 19 20:12:51 sumo Feb 19 20:12:53 the show (outlaws) at least didn't go to deb/rpm thing Feb 19 20:12:54 that would be funny. i'd love to watch that. Feb 19 20:13:13 In fact, there is a Maemo developer training summit in Moscow next month Feb 19 20:13:31 RST38h: raise the topic and grab popcorn Feb 19 20:13:45 * RST38h Stskeeps: Hey, I cannot Feb 19 20:13:49 hand out armbands with rpm / deb colors Feb 19 20:13:57 lcuk, seems so for the moment anyway. Feb 19 20:14:16 which weapons are you choosing Feb 19 20:14:17 lcuk: infobot is much more than a mere logbot Feb 19 20:14:21 and where can i get popcorn from Feb 19 20:14:27 Stskeeps: I actually asked my people to avoid mentioning employer Feb 19 20:14:28 * TimRiker does not pick a color. rpm and deb are both bad, just in different ways. Feb 19 20:14:33 "we selected rpm because DEB SUCKS" Feb 19 20:14:46 Stskeeps: (which is ok as we do not officially represent it there) Feb 19 20:15:16 this rpm deb seems as serious as the talk.maemo.org coup Feb 19 20:15:32 the one where people didnt like the colorscheme Feb 19 20:15:39 lcuk: Actually, as long as Maeblin is LSB-compliant, I do not see much of a problem Feb 19 20:15:46 me neither Feb 19 20:16:02 lcuk: It is not like DEB is such a nice and trouble free thing either Feb 19 20:16:05 the mechanism to get the code in our hands is mere fluff Feb 19 20:16:20 and sticky, messy fluff at that Feb 19 20:16:21 why not use a zip of a rar of an rpm (cpio +) and a deb (ar + tar) then? that way you'd need _all_ the archive tools to install? Feb 19 20:16:34 And they are not gonna consider pkg_add, so why even worry? Feb 19 20:16:39 TimRiker: on a 5 1/4 floppy Feb 19 20:16:55 or those tapes GNU project used to send out Feb 19 20:17:00 Stskeeps, need an 8" to fit in my HP. Feb 19 20:17:21 i said at the start anyway: installshield. its the future Feb 19 20:17:40 lcuk: Or that AmigaOS system, based on LISP Feb 19 20:17:45 5.25 would be fine if it's in apple ][ 144k format. Feb 19 20:18:00 RST38h, i cant even remember amiga packaging? Feb 19 20:18:02 Anyways, nightly DrWho and sleep. Feb 19 20:18:03 did you install stuff Feb 19 20:18:09 or just run it from floppy Feb 19 20:18:17 lcuk: AmigaOS installer used LISP for its scripts Feb 19 20:18:17 lcuk, clearly for an embedded project a war file would be better than installshield Feb 19 20:18:36 RST38h, ahh i tohught most of the scripting was arexx Feb 19 20:18:41 lcuk: And yes, there was installer. Not for games mostly, but for real software Feb 19 20:18:45 yes arexx Feb 19 20:18:56 why is *vereyone* *everywhere* talking about AmigaOS... :S Feb 19 20:19:02 TimRiker, no and if you continue on this route, i shall enforce Visual Basic Package and deployment wizard upon you Feb 19 20:19:03 lcuk: arexx was kinda like AmigaOS version of Python+DBus Feb 19 20:19:08 yeah Feb 19 20:19:19 apps were developed with dual interfaces Feb 19 20:19:26 I'm voting for unix v5 tar on papertape. Feb 19 20:19:29 and those that took it seriously really did do wonders Feb 19 20:19:48 lcuk: Well, AmigaOS had a lot of things that Unix only gained 5-10 years after AmigaOS died Feb 19 20:19:56 i arexxed my way out of many problems Feb 19 20:20:25 Unfortunately, it was also owned by a company that actively refused to do any business Feb 19 20:20:28 RST38h, amiga was ahead of its time on many counts Feb 19 20:20:48 i am pleased with the years i had with it Feb 19 20:21:03 Anyways, sleep. Feb 19 20:39:08 ~rot13 TimRiker Feb 19 20:39:09 GvzEvxre Feb 19 20:39:27 ~doublerot13 foo Feb 19 20:39:50 you need quad rounds of rot13 to be sure Feb 19 20:40:01 true Feb 19 20:41:05 ~rot26 ShadowJK Feb 19 20:41:05 ShadowJK Feb 19 20:41:17 hi Feb 19 20:41:32 ~reverse ShadowJK Feb 19 20:41:33 i have some problems with QT Creator on Windows platform Feb 19 20:41:33 KJwodahS Feb 19 20:41:40 * TimRiker stop playing with the bot. Feb 19 20:41:47 :) Feb 19 20:41:55 glad there's http://www.meegos.com/ Feb 19 20:41:55 i've created gui application :) empty one Feb 19 20:42:12 and i have huge amount of errors on build Feb 19 20:42:15 Tereska: you can ask in #qt or #qt-creator too, but what's the issue? Feb 19 20:42:21 what's the first error? Feb 19 20:42:41 ~rot52 foo Feb 19 20:42:41 foo Feb 19 20:42:58 So you can do quad, great to know Feb 19 20:43:24 c:\sdk\qt\2010.01\mingw\bin\../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.4.0/include/c++/string:40: error: bits/c++config.h: No such file or directory Feb 19 20:43:29 but there is one :) Feb 19 20:43:34 * thiago_home points out that the Norwegian alphabet has 29 letters Feb 19 20:43:40 Tereska: your mingw isn't properly installed... Feb 19 20:43:55 i've set QT framework to be 4.6.1 in Options/QT4 Feb 19 20:44:32 Tereska I would advice you to remove and reïntall with normal options and try egain Feb 19 20:44:34 thiago_home: the german alphabet has 30. we win. Feb 19 20:45:08 i try. but install process is very easy... you know :) next next next ;) Feb 19 20:45:18 on my mac everything is OK Feb 19 20:45:29 Tereska: where is that file (c++config.h) ? Feb 19 20:45:40 MisterN: does ä count as a separate letter from a"? Feb 19 20:46:03 Wow, that crappy site slows FireFox to a crawl on my machine Feb 19 20:46:05 thiago_home: ??? Feb 19 20:46:11 thiago_home: a" is two letters :P Feb 19 20:46:35 MisterN: I meant a, sorry. The " was an accident. Feb 19 20:46:46 thiago_home: yes of course a is different from ä Feb 19 20:47:27 there are @ C:\SDK\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\bits Feb 19 20:47:33 MisterN: different place in the alphabet? Or sorted as ae ? Feb 19 20:47:44 Tereska: how about c++config.h ? Feb 19 20:47:53 only norwegians combine ae Feb 19 20:47:58 thiago_home: sorted as ae, normally. Feb 19 20:48:16 villemv: and danes Feb 19 20:48:23 æ is a separate letter for Norwegians, sorted at the end of the alphabet, before ø and Ã¥ Feb 19 20:48:28 MisterN: isn't ä at the end of alphabet? Feb 19 20:48:30 which makes for funny sorting from A to AA Feb 19 20:48:38 villemv: not in german dictionaries. Feb 19 20:48:42 ok, danes too Feb 19 20:48:55 thiago_home: but ä is a distinct letter anyways Feb 19 20:49:02 it's simply not the same as a Feb 19 20:49:03 there is one @ C:\sdk\Qt\2010.01\mingw\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.4.0\include\c++\mingw32\bits\c++config Feb 19 20:49:07 weird. so germans sort the alphabet differently from finns and swedes Feb 19 20:49:12 that's pretty fscked up Feb 19 20:49:32 villemv: it's not our fault that you northerners do it wrong :P Feb 19 20:49:32 Tereska: thanks Feb 19 20:49:41 Tereska: can you pastebin the output of cpp -v -xc++ ? Feb 19 20:49:59 MisterN: hey, we are iso-8859-x compliant Feb 19 20:50:06 villemv: no. ae isn't æ Feb 19 20:50:30 ae is ä Feb 19 20:50:44 ae is also æ Feb 19 20:50:46 :D Feb 19 20:51:05 ok, I give up in trying to understand what you are on about Feb 19 20:51:11 thiago_home: thanks. i can see now what is the problem. i'have DevCpp first in my PATH Feb 19 20:51:21 i had a prof whose name was VÅ“ller and i mistakenly wrote Völler. he didn't like that! Feb 19 20:51:28 C:\Users\tereska>cpp -v -xc++ Feb 19 20:51:28 Reading specs from C:/Dev-Cpp/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/3.4.2/specs(...) Feb 19 20:51:38 there's no æ in German, so we don't sort the alphabet differently to Finns and Swedish Feb 19 20:51:42 so in german phonebook äschermeister is before Benedictus? Feb 19 20:51:46 Tereska: you need to ensure taht gcc doesn't interfere Feb 19 20:51:55 DocScrutinizer: some names contain these symbols Feb 19 20:51:56 DocScrutinizer: yes, I was talking about ä Feb 19 20:51:58 Tereska: mingw's gcc 3.4 is not binary compatible with the 4.4 that comes with Qt Feb 19 20:52:03 Tereska: at least, not in C++ Feb 19 20:52:03 villemv: yes. Feb 19 20:52:22 ok i try to remove DevCpp from PATH. maybe it helps :) thanks for the tip Feb 19 20:52:25 MisterN: so you can't just sort lexically by iso-8859-1 then... Feb 19 20:52:28 MisterN: Finnish names ;-) Feb 19 20:52:30 villemv: and it's at the same place as a hypothetical Aeschermeister Feb 19 20:52:52 ok. have to use that trivia sometimes in a casual conversation Feb 19 20:52:53 DocScrutinizer: or maybe from other funny places Feb 19 20:53:18 DocScrutinizer: huguenots maybe Feb 19 20:53:59 anyway collation sequence defined by LOCALE is rather clearly specified Feb 19 20:57:03 out of historical interest... when germans were using 8bit encodings, did they manually check for weird characters when sorting? Feb 19 20:57:47 as opposed to just comparing integer values of chars Feb 19 21:00:56 DocScrutinizer, errr, finns and swedes sort åäö as separate chars at the end of the alphabet Feb 19 21:01:54 hmm, ok. So tjhey definitely have a different collation sequence than Germans Feb 19 21:02:35 Anyway I don't care. I got LOCALE to sort that out for me Feb 19 21:05:10 villemv: i guess computers just used the wrong sort order when programmers were lazy Feb 19 21:06:15 yeah, I imagine that would have caused a problem of two for systems that were dependent on correct sort order Feb 19 21:06:24 problem OR two Feb 19 21:06:51 but i'm really too young to know such things Feb 19 21:26:50 ah, the wonders of maemo scripts. using run-parts -l, which magically only exists as --list in debianutils -l Feb 19 21:27:44 (a busyboxism) Feb 19 21:29:41 so Stskeeps is it the parameter itself thats missing, or just the shortcut Feb 19 21:30:28 well, the short version doesn't exist in real debian Feb 19 21:30:34 (lenny) Feb 19 21:31:23 and what is expecting it to exist Feb 19 21:31:44 -l (long version --list) Feb 19 21:32:07 no, why is that a problem is what i mean. what are you running thats expecting the short one Feb 19 21:32:19 Fremantle on top of Debian 5.0. Feb 19 21:32:54 (i do have a point with that.) Feb 19 21:32:54 :P Feb 19 21:33:13 i was just curious is all Feb 19 21:33:27 cos things like autotools exists because of all these incompatabilities Feb 19 21:33:34 they are known and expected acros sthe board Feb 19 21:34:28 I guess autotools can't help w/ busybox Feb 19 21:34:40 well, this problem is cos the scripts relying on being run on busybox Feb 19 21:34:43 since normal sbox build env isn't testing stuff w/ busybox Feb 19 21:34:44 which is fail :) Feb 19 21:35:14 no, but autotools exists solely because of these sorts of incompatabilities in tooling. to find theres similar things in other commands shouldnt come as a surprise Feb 19 21:35:33 autotools exists because of the sins of manking Feb 19 21:36:11 ~lart messybox Feb 19 21:36:11 * infobot gives messybox an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending messybox to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple Feb 19 21:36:17 "yes, I have a fortran compiler. Why are yo asking?" Feb 19 22:32:58 mh... 16:30 UTC? sounds nice Feb 19 22:35:44 Hola! Feb 19 22:35:51 hey Feb 19 22:36:07 gah, fecking firewall Feb 19 22:36:11 Do you also like the greatest design of N900? Or better say: NO DESIGN style? Feb 19 22:36:42 Black brick with no design, what more could we want? Feb 19 22:37:14 bye everyone. Feb 19 22:37:14 Do you think that next meego device is going to be similar? Or it is going to be for masses, so designed? Feb 19 22:37:19 bye Feb 19 22:37:49 probably for the masses Feb 19 22:37:51 It meets a certain aesthetic, I guess Feb 19 22:38:11 don't think we'll have a real keyboard for the next device Feb 19 22:38:19 probably capacitive screen and so on Feb 19 22:38:26 * vmlemon_ is one of the few who actually prefer functionality to prettiness Feb 19 22:38:27 * arjan will miss the keyboard and resistive screen Feb 19 22:38:33 *prefers Feb 19 22:38:40 * simula_ likes his keyboard Feb 19 22:38:53 * mikeleib will nots Feb 19 22:38:58 s/nots/not/ Feb 19 22:39:25 keyboard on N900 seems small and tiny, but its usage is just great Feb 19 22:39:30 no typos, fast typing Feb 19 22:39:34 * rsalveti don't care about prettiness Feb 19 22:39:40 yeah Feb 19 22:39:40 * simula_ considers his n900 a mini-netbook Feb 19 22:39:46 one of the best keyboards we have Feb 19 22:39:57 I used to have a e71, and that was already a great keyboard Feb 19 22:40:10 arjan: i can understand missing a keyboard. but missing a resistive touchscreen?? Feb 19 22:40:23 and now with the n900 I'm also very comfortable with it Feb 19 22:40:45 guess that resistive is easier to work with stylus Feb 19 22:41:04 yes, but more and more people want to use the fingers Feb 19 22:41:15 some websites aren't so easy to work with in a capacitive screen Feb 19 22:41:19 yeah, true Feb 19 22:42:05 Heh, good luck trying to use a capacitive touch screen with gloves, I guess Feb 19 22:42:16 and capacitive is far more sensitive, reviewers wrote so many pretty words about N900 screen, that its almost sensitive like capacitive, but it isnt Feb 19 22:42:24 I dont use gloves Feb 19 22:42:38 * vmlemon_ doesn't either, but threw it out as a wildcard Feb 19 22:43:09 Although I can't really say much, given that all the handsets that I've had have had standard ITU-T keypads, and have been non-touch-enabled Feb 19 22:43:47 anyway, I would like to ask, what about invisible shield on n900 screen? Does it make the sensitivity worse? Feb 19 22:44:38 hard to say, I just hate those in general :P Feb 19 22:44:45 hmm Feb 19 22:44:45 sh0gun, sensitivity seems to be about the same, but it's not as silky... kinda of a pain Feb 19 22:44:55 the stylus sticks on the plastic a bit Feb 19 22:45:15 ah, bad Feb 19 22:46:08 but some guys from the discussions said that with invisible shield it more sliding Feb 19 22:46:15 even with stylus Feb 19 22:46:26 and now I see that stylus sticks a bit on it Feb 19 22:46:38 opposite meanings :/ Feb 19 22:46:58 i got the one with holes in it to fit the microphone and user facing camera... i can't speak to every cover Feb 19 22:49:12 every has these holes, but these holes are far away from touchscreen itself, how does it affect usage of stylus? Feb 19 22:55:17 i think some of the covers don't have holes Feb 19 23:01:11 hello again :) Feb 19 23:01:34 is plainText supports utf-8 characters? Feb 19 23:01:54 i've done something like this: ui->plainTextEdit->setPlainText(HTTPreply->readAll() ); Feb 19 23:02:19 and i have buggy chars where utf-8 chars are Feb 19 23:16:46 kdjf Feb 19 23:17:16 really? Feb 19 23:17:18 I doubt it! Feb 19 23:17:41 Q('.'Q) Feb 19 23:18:06 if you say so... Feb 19 23:18:13 tennis kirby? Feb 19 23:18:43 woof Feb 19 23:19:20 ( . )( . ) Feb 19 23:19:54 two oranges? Feb 19 23:20:07 satsumas Feb 19 23:20:07 Yeah, but they fell from the truck. Feb 19 23:20:08 nice topic for this channel Feb 19 23:20:32 a bit off-topic Feb 19 23:24:51 auke: PAM? Feb 19 23:24:53 seriously? Feb 19 23:25:44 as in, remove it? Feb 19 23:25:55 yes Feb 19 23:26:19 it's not removed. we did try to reduce the amount of stuff we use from it. Feb 19 23:26:43 might revisit that entire story again several times :) Feb 19 23:27:15 we'll probably need it to do fingerprint reader support, for instance Feb 19 23:27:26 * lbt giggles Feb 19 23:27:51 sorry, straight face for the marketing guys now... Feb 19 23:28:10 anyhoo Feb 19 23:28:24 I was more concerned about ldap type support Feb 19 23:28:30 have you ever looked at PAM from a performance point of view? :) Feb 19 23:28:35 no Feb 19 23:28:40 logins/second? :) Feb 19 23:28:51 syscalls per authentication, for instance Feb 19 23:28:55 files read from disc Feb 19 23:29:21 that's interesting Feb 19 23:29:40 I just sent off a mail on this Feb 19 23:29:48 and noticed you were here :) Feb 19 23:29:56 I did wonder where it mattered Feb 19 23:30:46 when we started working on fast boot prototypes, we noticed that for some stuff, 80% of our straces were linux-PAM stuff :) Feb 19 23:31:02 mmm Feb 19 23:31:12 so you made PAM faster? Feb 19 23:31:12 well, there are worse things Feb 19 23:31:15 heh Feb 19 23:31:16 ahaha :) Feb 19 23:31:39 I have to wonder at the cost of a 5 second boot Feb 19 23:31:44 as I mention in my email Feb 19 23:32:03 I want my device to boot in the 0.01sec it takes my finger to swipe Feb 19 23:32:30 and I booted my N900 ~10 times in 3 months Feb 19 23:32:34 and I'm a hacker/dev Feb 19 23:32:45 with a pre-production unit Feb 19 23:33:22 now if it really affects day to day usage Feb 19 23:33:27 then that's different Feb 19 23:34:19 add to that the time to restart all applications Feb 19 23:38:13 auke: maybe try and reply to Marius and I some more about this 'upstream' thing. I have to go now. Catch you over the w'end I hope :) Feb 19 23:38:23 'night all Feb 19 23:38:29 night Feb 19 23:38:33 night Feb 19 23:41:23 Tm_T, I'm personally pulling for them to file a big lawsuit against Nokia/Intel. Feb 19 23:41:28 auke, Tegra sucks. Feb 19 23:41:32 auke, OMAP all the way. :P Feb 19 23:41:40 why does tegra suck? Feb 19 23:41:59 i personally like fast graphics Feb 19 23:42:04 trip0, historically because it was just an ARM11 with a big GPU and lots of fanboys Feb 19 23:42:17 Now because it's NVIDIA and they hate open source. Feb 19 23:42:32 ahh, yes, that would be an issue to take with it then :P Feb 19 23:42:50 On the other side you have TI Feb 19 23:43:22 Which delivers a solid piece of hardware with fantastic Linux support that is improving everyday from the company that appears to actually /get/ open source. Feb 19 23:43:36 true Feb 19 23:44:59 Except when they threaten to sue people who modify calculator firmware ;) Feb 19 23:45:19 vmlemon_, different division. ;) Feb 19 23:45:22 Although that's by the by Feb 19 23:45:23 Indeed Feb 19 23:45:54 * GeneralAntilles <3's his TI-89ti, though. Feb 19 23:47:34 They do make some impressive hardware otherwise Feb 19 23:58:25 hello hello Feb 20 00:21:21 Dell spokespeople announced that the Mini 5 won't ship with the Android 1.6 build that we've seen so far -- instead, they say, it'll be running "something newer" Feb 20 00:21:24 hmmmm Feb 20 00:21:37 ORLY Feb 20 00:23:49 Blice, like meego? Feb 20 00:23:56 I hope so! Feb 20 00:24:01 haha Feb 20 00:24:08 They haven't said anything else, they won't say what "something newer" is Feb 20 00:24:48 They have been demoing it with Android 1.6 forever though. Feb 20 00:25:01 and by forever I mean the past few months Feb 20 01:30:22 * mikeleib flees teh sceen **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 20 02:59:57 2010