**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 20 02:59:57 2010 Feb 20 02:59:57 an idea...it would be nice if meego have a parental control Feb 20 03:23:52 no? :( Feb 20 03:26:30 koupsa: gtfo Feb 20 03:27:04 i mean, define parental control Feb 20 03:27:31 unless you just mean a censoring http proxy, in which case kthxbye Feb 20 03:28:05 like iphone an easy way for my old mother Feb 20 03:30:53 * microlith boots moblin on his aspire one Feb 20 03:31:21 um wow Feb 20 03:31:22 that was fast Feb 20 03:34:47 can i leave a children (less 11year) alone with a notebook or mediaphone a tv with no protection? it's difficult to add a easy parental control? install un proxy is not easy and mobil-web is mobil; so not always on same network (sorry if my english is not clear) Feb 20 03:35:57 better not ;) Feb 20 03:35:58 :D Feb 20 03:36:32 wiretapped, aren't you a little old to be worried about your parents locking you out of those websites? :P Feb 20 03:37:41 hmm Feb 20 03:38:14 * microlith finds the terminal in moblin and is happy Feb 20 03:38:56 :) me not but some mother can be anxious Feb 20 03:40:19 and if you root you don't care if your phone/notebook is censored Feb 20 03:42:06 koupsa: children should be taught common sense... censorware can't make the internet "safe", whatever that means Feb 20 03:42:31 but it will block a lot of harmless things, and teach children that their parents don't trust them Feb 20 03:42:57 and in many cases will teach them to circumvent it, which isn't such a bad thing :) Feb 20 03:43:13 i m agree but more difficult and less random bad publicity (like spamware) Feb 20 03:43:27 i don't understand what you're saying Feb 20 03:47:06 i m agree with you. but install a little controll can protect from bad porno publicity and other that choldren can found in a (like spamware for ex) Feb 20 03:47:27 in a google simple search Feb 20 03:47:36 that's not the distro's problem though Feb 20 03:48:43 sure some controls could be put into place (usage times, whitelists) but netnanny stuff is out of scope Feb 20 03:49:36 (once more time sorry for my english , i shut up :) ) not necessary but it can be an advantage . Feb 20 03:49:56 then it would probably be a 3rd party option Feb 20 03:50:18 * microlith fears either the ssd in his netbook is dying, or the pata controller is Feb 20 03:50:19 i hope Feb 20 03:56:32 both? Feb 20 03:56:49 tripzero: entirely possible, I have messed with its innards a bit... Feb 20 03:57:03 tripzero, the eternal optimist Feb 20 03:57:04 however, moblin is not unhappy on it so I will not taunt it Feb 20 03:57:23 there Feb 20 03:57:27 I am now running both maemo and moblin Feb 20 03:57:40 geoff43, ;) Feb 20 03:58:41 I think we need an "I'm a Pepper"-style ad campaign for MeeGo Feb 20 04:00:11 GeneralAntilles: I could do both at once Feb 20 04:00:21 * microlith looks at all the drpepper cans... Feb 20 05:53:25 Oh wow. Feb 20 05:53:49 Did not expect it to be this big, especially prior to a release o_0 Feb 20 05:57:34 Well, it's most of the Maemo community ,so. . . . Feb 20 05:59:37 I sorta figured as much. Feb 20 06:00:27 Assuming there'll be an app SDK, how will it deal with the two architectures? Fat binary or will it be up to the app store itself? Feb 20 06:02:51 I'm super-stoked about the entire concept Feb 20 06:08:59 moo all Feb 20 06:09:34 that's a good point mukiex... hmm fat binaries would be pretty cool Feb 20 06:11:32 LLVM. Feb 20 06:11:44 No need for fat binaries where LLVM works Feb 20 06:14:19 is there a version of LLVM that can compile Qt? Feb 20 06:15:17 No idea but why not? Feb 20 06:15:36 i know it's c++ support is incomplete... at least CLANG Feb 20 06:16:02 brb Feb 20 07:16:45 morning thiago_home Feb 20 07:49:57 * w00t_ moos at Stskeeps Feb 20 07:50:42 moo w00t_ Feb 20 07:50:44 Stskeeps: http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/02/pyside-tutorial-model-view-programming.html - you said you wanted to learn, so, learn :P Feb 20 07:51:21 does this mean i have to drag out my UI book? Feb 20 07:51:21 :P Feb 20 07:51:32 hehe, not for that one Feb 20 08:53:23 hi * Feb 20 08:53:27 'lo Feb 20 08:54:04 Stskeeps: hi man. i'm seeing your dream come true :) Feb 20 08:54:34 hehe, i think it's been the dream of many, but difficult to implement Feb 20 08:54:53 :) Feb 20 08:55:29 morning everyone Feb 20 08:55:30 now my dream is to port meego software over arch (normal + mobile) :D Feb 20 09:05:01 admiral0: i think 3d drivers will be possible to strong-hand as nokia already provides in SDK Feb 20 09:05:09 and if TI gets in on the game.. Feb 20 09:05:11 :P Feb 20 09:05:40 Stskeeps: the openpandora is also here to help us n900s Feb 20 09:05:45 ;) Feb 20 09:05:58 openpandora isn't going to have open 3d drivers Feb 20 09:05:58 :P Feb 20 09:06:11 T.T Feb 20 09:06:19 it's a SGX, too Feb 20 09:06:42 Stskeeps: you have more experience than me with nokia devices Feb 20 09:06:49 Open pandora, closed pandora, are they shipping their soap boxes already? Feb 20 09:06:57 is there a way to have uboot instead of nolo? Feb 20 09:07:26 RST38h: they are in smp afaik Feb 20 09:07:39 admiral0: no, but i think we're happy to have nolo Feb 20 09:07:39 Feb 20 09:07:42 less brickable Feb 20 09:07:54 i want dual boot T.T Feb 20 09:08:01 you have dualboot, get kexec working Feb 20 09:08:02 :P Feb 20 09:08:12 it's a workaround Feb 20 09:08:34 btw what's up with kexec? Feb 20 09:08:49 there's a bug, tmlind mentioned something abotu it Feb 20 09:08:50 i heard it doesn't work Feb 20 09:09:15 hmm Feb 20 09:11:32 kexec + qt embedded static binary = nice boot menu Feb 20 09:15:40 Stskeeps: so kexec fails even with tmlind's patches? Feb 20 09:16:53 in later version it doesn't Feb 20 09:18:32 i wish i had my n900 so i can test Feb 20 09:19:38 is there any kernel that can use kexec on n900? Feb 20 09:20:13 if there is, with a lot of coffee and beer someone can bisect to the problem Feb 20 09:21:26 it should work on later linux-omap i think Feb 20 09:22:24 are there any nokia changes not in linux-omap? Feb 20 09:26:24 Amby: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213 Feb 20 09:26:40 Hello Feb 20 09:29:12 Stskeeps: very nice post! Feb 20 09:29:23 yes indeed Feb 20 09:30:08 this discussion has really gone to the same ridicolous level as the rpm vs deb one, so Feb 20 09:31:13 Stskeeps: this is what I just answered in another emotionally heated thread - http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=538141&postcount=33 Feb 20 09:31:51 people should realize that there's still a long time for things to fixed in maemo5 :P Feb 20 09:32:11 kontorri spoke of the plans earlier in terms of timeframe, and there's a lot of things ahead of us Feb 20 09:32:14 Good that you opened a thread, I was about to start one to do what Nokia failed to explain :) Yours is very clear. Feb 20 09:32:28 ovi maps is just shit, i use Maep Feb 20 09:32:28 :P Feb 20 09:32:52 I loved Ovi Maps 3. Feb 20 09:33:00 "I'm extremely happy about the N900 - this is my first smartphone, I'm satisfied with and I am a smartphone user since 2005 (Nokia N90)" Do I sense some contradictions here eh? :) Feb 20 09:33:03 ovi maps is... call it in progress ;) Feb 20 09:33:22 I tried to build a lightweight browser using PyQt and QtWebKit, but the signal connecting was too difficult Feb 20 09:33:30 sharpneli: i think he wanted to say "mobile computer" on the first one there ;) Feb 20 09:33:42 sharpneli: could you explain? Feb 20 09:34:06 leinir: Probably. Feb 20 09:34:37 Amby: As mobiles are always personal devices the fact that he's been a smartphone user since 2005 means that N900 is not his first smartphone. Feb 20 09:35:18 maybe he wanted to say linux-based smartphone ;) Feb 20 09:35:35 sharpneli: that's my post (diff nickname). I think that's my English (and punctuation) which derails my meaning Feb 20 09:35:36 Or mobile computer or whatever. It still looks funny :D Feb 20 09:36:10 Amby: What is the correct meaning of that sentence? Feb 20 09:37:15 remove the comma :) this is the first *whatever* I'm happy with (period) Feb 20 09:37:49 Ooh... nicely :) Feb 20 09:37:54 Heh. Explains a lot :D Feb 20 09:38:20 So the fact that it's a mobile computer rather than a smart phone has nothing to do with the fact it's the first any remotely similar device you're really, actually happy with ;) Feb 20 09:39:43 leinir: for me that is just semantics :) I had an N810 before, that was okay, but not happy. Feb 20 09:40:02 n900 misses only 2 things that would make it f***ing EPIC for geeks Feb 20 09:40:06 Amby: Well, it's an important distinction for me :) Feb 20 09:40:18 usb host and HD movies Feb 20 09:40:22 A smartphone is a phone that tries to be a computer, which is not really my thing... Feb 20 09:40:38 It's fine for a lot of people, who really like the phone bit a lot, but for me it's the computer bit that's important :) Feb 20 09:41:12 now it's on the epic level ;) Feb 20 09:41:14 So, having a mobile computer, which is a computer which is able to do phone things (how well it does it is sort of unimportant for me), that's the good bit... for me :) Feb 20 09:44:31 leinir: I also appreciate those values, but I'm most of all an en-user. I like a decent UI, multitasking (with usable UI), unlimited web browser, phone capabilities and the integration (no freaking apps for everything). I don't mind the mobile computer term, but you can also look at it as the cleverest phone out there :) Feb 20 09:45:49 It's just that it's an important distinctions :) It's not a phone which is able to run non-phone-related things, but rather it's a computer that fits in your pockets, which just so happens to be able to make phone calls :) Feb 20 09:47:25 Also, PyQt is dog-slow... This is one of the reasons I prefer GTK Feb 20 09:48:39 liel: use C++/Qt Feb 20 09:49:31 admiral0: I tried to learn C++, but it was to difficult to me Feb 20 09:50:19 liel: try to use Qt Creator to code in C++. It helps you learn a lot Feb 20 09:50:57 you don't need to know advanced features of C++ to code in Qt Feb 20 09:51:16 if you do you understand why some things just fail Feb 20 09:52:03 and don't give up Feb 20 09:52:16 the first part of learning C++ is boring Feb 20 09:53:02 and the second part is painful ;-) Feb 20 09:53:06 then the fun starts Feb 20 09:53:52 indeed w/ Qt you can get by without really learning c++ Feb 20 09:54:13 you only need basically the "Java-level" knownledge of the language Feb 20 09:54:46 if there is something painful, then it's called C/GTK or C++/gtkmm Feb 20 09:54:55 XD Feb 20 09:55:21 don't know gtkmm, but I can appreciate the pain of C/gtk Feb 20 09:56:07 look at how many gtk projects are written in C# Feb 20 09:56:15 or pygtk Feb 20 09:56:21 that means the native way is painful Feb 20 09:57:57 GtkBuilder reduces the pain Feb 20 09:58:12 I think the pain comes from C Feb 20 09:58:14 C# is decent, but I wouldn't use it on anything but windows Feb 20 09:58:20 not really the class lib as such Feb 20 09:58:50 pyqt / gtk# are quite ok I understand Feb 20 09:59:37 not on a embedded device Feb 20 09:59:52 (I meant pygtk) Feb 20 10:00:03 perhaps not on embedde device, but on n900 ;-) Feb 20 10:00:11 Indeed - you really can get away with just not knowing anything about the nitty-gritty of c++ by using Qt :) Feb 20 10:00:46 You just need to have a basic understanding of what a pointer is, no need to have a complete grasp of pointer arithmetic (though it's good for optimization, but that can always come later) :) Feb 20 10:01:24 No need to know what sort of deep voodoo qobject_cast does, just that it works ;) Feb 20 10:01:50 leinir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i49_SNt4yfk Feb 20 10:01:53 :> Feb 20 10:04:16 you can get by without really learning C++, but do not come with a C++ basic question to #qt Feb 20 10:04:18 liked it :> ? Feb 20 10:04:21 you'll be told to learn the language Feb 20 10:04:53 it's true Feb 20 10:05:06 but to start coding and having fun is enough Feb 20 10:05:08 admiral0: Brilliant :) That's really all you need to know about pointers to use Qt :) Feb 20 10:06:01 then you can have your time to learn more advanced things Feb 20 10:06:28 qobject_cast is very simple: template T *qobject_cast(QObject *ptr) { if (cast is proper) return static_cast(ptr); return 0; } Feb 20 10:06:34 when i first started coding in C++ i didn't even know what templates are Feb 20 10:06:38 the "cast is proper" code is nothing more than normal code. No magic there. Feb 20 10:06:50 for magic, see http://erdani.com/book/main.html Feb 20 10:07:04 or go in World of Warcraft Feb 20 10:07:39 thiago_home: don't scare him Feb 20 10:07:44 :P Feb 20 10:08:05 thiago_home: Oh i know - but to the user of it it's pretty magic :) My point is that to the casual user, it looks like any other language construct, what it does on the inside is... irrelevant to its use :) Feb 20 10:08:11 he'll understand it after some coding and real interest in C++ Feb 20 10:08:27 thiago_home: except, of course, for figuring out that problem i've been having with Gluon's Asset class ;) Feb 20 10:08:53 it may also not be ovbious why you need qobject_cast instead of dynamic_cast Feb 20 10:11:23 thiago_home: speaking of c++; when you upload the tidbit about std::function "slot" (QSignalMapper), take the trouble to make a small blog post about it or something. It's good "marketing material" for C++ in general Feb 20 10:11:40 (regarding recent post on qt-interest ML) Feb 20 10:12:20 villemv: yes, I will Feb 20 10:12:32 all those closures used as signal handlers are a persistent cause for C#/python/ruby envy :-) Feb 20 10:12:32 villemv: it has nothing to do with std::function or QSignalMapper, though Feb 20 10:12:33 good Feb 20 10:12:44 it's just plain signal connections to functors Feb 20 10:12:55 ok, even better Feb 20 10:13:17 I don't give a damn about using those specifically. It was just something I thought of first Feb 20 10:13:52 but how do you pass the functor as argument if not using std::function? Feb 20 10:14:15 some construct that does the same thing? Feb 20 10:16:32 (I guess using std::function allows avoiding the type being a template type) Feb 20 10:18:08 nvm, I'll see it from the code anyway Feb 20 10:18:59 there's nothing special about std::function Feb 20 10:19:11 I probably repeated its construct in my code Feb 20 10:19:29 but anyway, before I publish my branch, I need to get the rest of Qt working Feb 20 10:19:41 we had a couple of failures yesterday, with pending fixes Feb 20 10:19:45 today, everything is failing Feb 20 10:21:34 :\ Feb 20 10:21:44 the best kind of changes ;) Feb 20 10:22:11 11 out of 34 configurations failed, 5 passed, the rest are still building Feb 20 10:22:25 QWS and Solaris are passing. Windows, Mac, Linux, Windows CE, Symbian are failing. Feb 20 11:16:40 ok, I hear some bad comments about Invisible Shield for N900, but what about Ghost Armor? Anyone with Ghost Armor on N900 please? Feb 20 11:19:41 morning tekojo! Feb 20 11:19:51 morning Stskeeps Feb 20 11:19:57 just popping in for a Feb 20 11:20:18 while, actually looking if the uni course we are running has any questions Feb 20 11:20:41 ah, how's that going? (was there any english-language info on it anywhere?) Feb 20 11:21:09 maemo wiki has a page on it Feb 20 11:21:09 tekojo: Unrelated question. Someone needs to take control of #meego-meeting properly, since it has been announced as the official place for Wednesday Feb 20 11:21:30 Hukka good point Feb 20 11:21:35 I see that this channel no longer has ops, so something has been done (the channel is now registered?) Feb 20 11:21:37 Hukka: it is taken over by GeneralAntilles Feb 20 11:21:52 also i submitted a group registration for Feb 20 11:22:05 (GA's a former council member and very pro-community, no worries there) Feb 20 11:22:06 sh0gun: initial searching suggests that GA is good :) Feb 20 11:22:19 Well GA and Sts are pretty reliable people :) Feb 20 11:22:26 Stskeeps: This channel you mean? Feb 20 11:22:35 Hukka: #meego, #meego-* Feb 20 11:22:37 (alright, the GA i am referring to is ghost armor, not the person ;) ) Feb 20 11:22:44 Sts? Feb 20 11:22:46 what is it? Feb 20 11:22:48 short for stskeeps Feb 20 11:22:53 hmm Feb 20 11:23:03 people say that IS is tacky Feb 20 11:23:06 Stskeeps: Hm, ok. I just went to the -meeting channel and am only one there Feb 20 11:23:09 which is not good for stylus at all Feb 20 11:23:16 Hukka: yeah, the services let people op if need be Feb 20 11:23:19 And was hoping that someone takes over before Wed Feb 20 11:23:20 is the GA tacky as well? Feb 20 11:23:24 wasnt meeting on wed Feb 20 11:23:26 sh0gun: that i can confirm - i have one on my freerunner :) Feb 20 11:23:35 ah Feb 20 11:23:40 leinir: IS or GA? Feb 20 11:23:43 Hukka: no worries, the channel is in safe hands Feb 20 11:23:53 Ok, good work Feb 20 11:23:58 sh0gun: IS - it's fine for me since i have nails (edge-ways your nail runs over it nicely), but a stylus does indeed stick a bit on it :) Feb 20 11:24:32 leinir: thats the issue :( I think about GA because I hoope it will not stick Feb 20 11:24:58 really no one in this channel with GA and stylus experience on it? Feb 20 11:26:11 The meego-community mailing list is up, good Feb 20 11:31:51 Yeah, and no mention of RPM on that list yet :) Feb 20 11:32:20 (Maybe getting just a _bit_ fed up on the subject) Feb 20 11:32:37 Hukka: i've been fed up with that particular discussion for years ;) Feb 20 11:32:47 Hukka I really got bored of that topic too :) Feb 20 11:32:58 and people still don't get the point: that it's about the toolset, procedure, existing state of the art services (builder, image building, etc etc) that are integrated together, working, and not stuck in the 90s Feb 20 11:33:02 :P Feb 20 11:33:13 Stskeeps: Exactly :) Feb 20 11:33:14 and services that are up and running, centered around rpm Feb 20 11:33:15 :P Feb 20 11:33:17 I mean, it's ok to really discuss it. But 99.9% of the people and comments on that are misinformed Feb 20 11:33:52 (In the sense that they haven't even bothered to research what their favourite system does, not to mention the other systems...) Feb 20 11:34:47 i'm even more shocked to find out how delusional people are about maemo :) Feb 20 11:34:53 But I have high hopes for the community list Feb 20 11:35:27 I think that the rabble will keep out and only people interested in building the meego community will join. That should keep the pessimism out :) Feb 20 11:35:32 yeah Feb 20 11:35:46 something getting created and started is already showing Feb 20 11:36:14 Sure, pragmatic sceptism is good... But sceptism only takes you that far without anything else on the table Feb 20 11:36:18 Hukka: Yes, the word "community" tends to scare away tech-trolls ;) Feb 20 11:36:25 leinir: :) Feb 20 11:36:49 And info is getting in place nicely. For example the who Feb 20 11:36:51 s who list Feb 20 11:37:01 *nods* Yes, that's a really nice little thing :) Feb 20 11:37:11 We never really had that for maemo, and you could see it Feb 20 11:37:24 i still look forward to seeing where people are placed in the hierarchy and who's in charge of what Feb 20 11:37:42 cos that's not apperarant, from my pov, the intel developers seem to have same position ;) Feb 20 11:37:46 Yeah, the TSG is the least filled on that page :/ Feb 20 11:38:10 it isn't obvious if the Head aMeeGos are part of TSG Feb 20 11:38:15 I wonder if it's because the corps are still negotiating on the balance Feb 20 11:38:36 that isn't clear either Feb 20 11:38:40 and how many nokians will be in the game too Feb 20 11:38:43 Hopefully in the long run the TSG will rise from the ranks of the community Feb 20 11:38:51 But right now, there isn't a way for that Feb 20 11:39:24 How does the Foundation work anyway? Who decides on the projects? Feb 20 11:39:31 there's a governance page Feb 20 11:39:39 which explains a bit, but it talks about technical merit.. Feb 20 11:39:45 which has no meaning in a community Feb 20 11:39:49 well, for community people Feb 20 11:40:45 Stskeeps: But it doesn't say who chooses the TSG Feb 20 11:40:53 Just that in meego, TSG is king Feb 20 11:42:03 yeah.. i am also keeping in mind that PR mostly put that together Feb 20 11:42:59 So I was wondering if it's the foundation board that chooses them; Linus & co. Or does Nokia and Intel have some kind of special position Feb 20 11:43:21 And what that position means for possible new corporate partners, or the small, small developer people Feb 20 11:43:32 i think it's the dictator's that are the top Feb 20 11:43:39 Hukka, Nokia and Intel have a special position. I guess these are the questions that will be answered in time - now the structure is being set up. Feb 20 11:44:14 Because even if Nokia and Intel never use that power, even having the power to overrule everything is a great deterrence for us OSS geeks Feb 20 11:44:48 Then again, I suppose as soon as we get the code, we can fork :) Feb 20 11:44:50 well, nokia also has a good feeling about messing with community, not something they do lightly :P Feb 20 11:45:25 Stskeeps: Yeah, but I mean it's still not free, if the slave's master gives only nice orders Feb 20 11:45:40 And principles play a large role in these circles Feb 20 11:45:45 Hukka: otoh .. i kinda like the fact there's someone to draw a line Feb 20 11:45:50 and help push the agenda ahead Feb 20 11:45:57 Well, that's different Feb 20 11:46:33 I'd like the community to have the option of parting with Nokia and Intel, if they wish. But it doesn't need to be a very good option, of course Feb 20 11:46:50 if community had their way, meego would end up with emdebian based meego that only ran sanely on nokia 770 ;) Feb 20 11:46:57 if discussions are to be interpreted Feb 20 11:47:06 Hukka, relax. No sense in starting to start a riot just because the thing is not ready. Feb 20 11:47:16 Like in Python, everyone fed up with Guido could fork. But everyone knows that having someone to make a decision and that everyone following is better, since Guido doesn't really make horrible choices Feb 20 11:47:27 Hukka I guess that is always an option in open source Feb 20 11:47:37 Terje1: Well, like I said, if we get the code with GPL or something, then that's enough Feb 20 11:47:58 Hukka: well, it's also about being participants - it gets more difficult to do something unpopular if your maintainers and backbone of your project does not agree Feb 20 11:48:11 which leads to compromise, etc Feb 20 11:48:15 Hukka, MeeGo is open source. Feb 20 11:48:16 Stskeeps: Well, depends if you take votes from everyone, from everyone who bothers to vote, or everyone who bothers to put some effort into it :) Feb 20 11:49:01 Hukka: we'll see about how the community gets built up, and then this discussion makes more sense :) Feb 20 11:49:39 But I think one thing with maemo.org's whines is that they didn't have a choice. If given a choice, they would probably still take the current route. But they couldn't complain in good concience :) Feb 20 11:50:06 That's the good thing about free software, you can always say "Make your own" and that usually shuts up the irrelevant discussions :) Feb 20 11:50:07 it'll be an interesting experiments to see if we can handle matters and actually produce things, yes Feb 20 11:51:02 Like the RPM vs deb. Just put everyone strongly in favour of deb to make it work. If they care, they will. If it doesn't really matter, then they will do nothing, not even continue the complaints. Feb 20 11:51:06 Considering that we have now two guys nominated to work in MeeGo community, I don't see yet too big reason to worry. Feb 20 11:51:29 So I think that after the discussion about the alternative builds started, it's already a bit calmer Feb 20 11:51:57 Oh yeah, two guys. How can you call a duo dictators both :? Feb 20 11:52:11 More like "the royal couple" :) Feb 20 11:52:15 Hukka: Rome did that didn't they? Feb 20 11:52:37 Stskeeps: Hm? There was the emperor, and...? Feb 20 11:52:48 ah, no, it was two consuls at the top Feb 20 11:52:58 On the establishment of the Roman republic the government of the state was entrusted to two consuls, that the citizens might be the better protected against the tyrannical exercise of the supreme power. Feb 20 11:53:14 then the triumvirate Feb 20 11:53:20 Really? Seems like the emperors did pretty much what they wanted Feb 20 11:53:38 Hukka: Roman *republic* Feb 20 11:53:40 not Roman Empire Feb 20 11:53:46 I haven't really read about Rome since elementary school... Feb 20 11:54:03 Ok, the kid's awake. Bye Feb 20 11:54:11 the consuls did pretty much what they wanted too, but since there were two of them... Feb 20 11:54:26 And how often the otherone died :? Feb 20 11:54:44 then new consuls or a new triumvirate was elected Feb 20 11:54:57 Ceasar wasn't an emperor. Augustus was, the first. Feb 20 11:56:54 A bit hard for me to distinguish, since in Finnish the work emperor derives directly from Ceasar :) Feb 20 11:56:54 hi Feb 20 11:57:10 hi user_ Feb 20 11:57:16 hi Feb 20 11:57:32 Hukka: That's just because Finnish is a horrible, horrible language... no matter what Tolkien might've thought ;) Feb 20 11:57:54 cant we use maemo.org credentials to login to meego.com? Feb 20 11:57:55 leinir: You're just envious that we can speak it so well :) Feb 20 11:58:03 *giggles* :) Feb 20 11:58:11 ab3339 not yet Feb 20 11:58:17 aha Feb 20 11:58:29 so i should create a new one Feb 20 11:58:46 there is some work started to make maemo.org provide OpenId so that meego.com could use that to authenticate Feb 20 11:59:02 can u tell me how to change my font color here? i am using xchat Feb 20 11:59:09 but it's still only a thought Feb 20 11:59:17 ok yea i ntoiced meego accepts openid Feb 20 11:59:32 ab3339: ask in an xchat channel, please Feb 20 11:59:43 ok Feb 20 12:21:45 Morning, all Feb 20 12:25:47 It's highlight freaking city in here. . . . Feb 20 12:26:22 Ah, acronym collision. Feb 20 12:26:22 hehe Feb 20 12:26:33 Stskeeps, you and X-Fade are +F Feb 20 12:26:53 +F? Feb 20 12:27:10 Founder Feb 20 12:27:22 Somebody else picked up #meego-devel, though. Feb 20 12:28:03 someone with good intentions, afaik Feb 20 12:28:03 k Feb 20 12:31:14 i'll pass reigns on when there's a visibile structure Feb 20 12:34:23 timeless_mbp: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Localization_working_group looks like a good place for you Feb 20 12:48:45 GeneralAntilles, th0br0 picked up -devel, im idling there too Feb 20 12:50:24 I only noticed that I don't have ops on -community anymore after trying to change the topic :) Feb 20 12:50:46 Thought that I had only parts and joins ignored, seems like I have everything except actual discussion Feb 20 13:03:29 exit Feb 20 13:05:07 meego bowling bbl Feb 20 13:58:00 lbt: It's great that when I try to catch up on the dozens of threads now in my inbox you've made all my points for me already :) Feb 20 14:20:08 so quiet today Feb 20 14:20:15 * w00t_ drops a pin Feb 20 14:20:27 Scary, isn't it? Feb 20 14:20:33 we can discuss DEB vs RPM again if you feel it's too quiet Feb 20 14:20:38 I was just thinking that, thiago_home Feb 20 14:21:51 thiago_home: do you mind if I bug you with a qt related question? (stop reading if you do).. just wondering whether itemview-ng is still a priority, since i've not heard much about it for a fair while Feb 20 14:22:03 it's not a priority Feb 20 14:22:08 Will get quieter, gradually. Unless there are news. Feb 20 14:22:25 hrm, sadface Feb 20 14:22:43 well, when things start appearing there should be more activity Feb 20 14:23:08 There are a few intangible problems right now though Feb 20 14:23:11 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support was interesting to me Feb 20 14:23:27 ah interesting Feb 20 14:23:34 as in, there's no current arm version, but it's getting bootstrapped Feb 20 14:24:21 Is this a page from the Maemo Devices guys? Feb 20 14:24:31 Or is there duplication of efforts with Maemo Devices? Feb 20 14:24:44 Stskeeps: why would there be anything ARM related before MeeGo in moblin? Feb 20 14:24:59 anaZ: i didn't see this as a negative thing :) Feb 20 14:25:04 but you're right Feb 20 14:25:07 :) Feb 20 14:25:14 just indicating this was current status Feb 20 14:25:21 which means there's a lot of (fun?) work to be done Feb 20 14:25:37 yes Feb 20 14:27:03 so, the base distribution will compile towards same ARM 'target version' as fedora arm? Feb 20 14:27:07 at first Feb 20 14:27:16 up to now I was the only one doing this work anyways, but now more folks are joining Feb 20 14:27:35 (like, gcc's default ARM version in f12 arm) Feb 20 14:28:02 yes, then when a package builds, the meego version is used Feb 20 14:28:12 and we are almost there where all packages build using meego Feb 20 14:28:18 oh, cool Feb 20 14:28:29 removing the dependency on fedora Feb 20 14:28:36 because fedora builds towards ARMv5TE and i'm curious what meego does 'normally' Feb 20 14:28:50 as an example, fremantle SDK compiles towards ARMv7 Feb 20 14:29:10 now we are building v5 Feb 20 14:29:18 once we have something native we could jump Feb 20 14:29:19 I hope MeeGo will compile for ARMv7 instead :) Feb 20 14:29:32 RST38h: i'm hoping for flexibility Feb 20 14:29:39 when more ARM experts are around :) Feb 20 14:29:55 anaZ: hehe, maybe my Nokia N810 can run MeeGo then :> (v5) Feb 20 14:30:02 So, who is doing the ARM port? Nokia? Intel? community? Feb 20 14:31:43 RST38h: well, if we are going by previous statements, whatever is in upstream is used Feb 20 14:31:48 We are just providing the base upon which people can start building other packages Feb 20 14:32:04 people= community, Noka Feb 20 14:33:05 Anaz: "we" == ? Feb 20 14:33:15 We = Me Feb 20 14:33:22 Me@intel.com Feb 20 14:33:23 ok Feb 20 14:33:33 anaZ: Ok, Intel Feb 20 14:33:47 anaZ: OTC? Feb 20 14:33:55 yes Feb 20 14:35:26 Cool, because I was just gonna ask Feb 20 14:36:11 software is more portable than some think :) Feb 20 14:36:17 yep Feb 20 14:36:18 anaZ: Will Maeblin be just an upstream kernel + some Atom SoC drivers, or will it be a complete solution, i.e. will it have base applications to browse the web, read email, use im, etc? Feb 20 14:36:43 actually I did not need to change anything to build some base 70 packages Feb 20 14:37:02 beside glibc, gcc and kernel Feb 20 14:37:20 which for now I am just taking the fedora source until we merge into MeeGo main packages Feb 20 14:37:35 For the multimedia stuff it helps to figure out the right compilerinvocation/incantation :) Feb 20 14:37:57 anaZ: well, there were some efforts to build Moblin for ARM before, but not from Intel directly :) Feb 20 14:38:01 RST38h: You MeeGo? Feb 20 14:38:16 it will be everything, from kernel up to frozen bubble :) Feb 20 14:38:23 =) Feb 20 14:38:43 parental control to? Feb 20 14:38:47 Who will be providing the baseline then? Intel? Nokia? No idea yet? =) Feb 20 14:39:20 adding a package from any other distro is really as easy as importing it and sometimes changing a couple of build deps Feb 20 14:39:21 meego will provide the baseline... its an organization run by intel and nokia. Feb 20 14:39:36 RST38h arm and atom if i understand Feb 20 14:39:38 RST38h: The core base is coming from Moblin, AIUI Feb 20 14:39:54 Jaffa: Ah, interesting =) Feb 20 14:39:56 hence this whole upstream argument is not necessary :) Feb 20 14:40:02 Jaffa: So, finally no Modest? =) Feb 20 14:40:13 (but I guess the whole point is that moblin and maemo aren't much different in their stack.) Feb 20 14:40:16 RST38h: Nokia provide a community; Qt and some other bits Feb 20 14:40:31 lol Feb 20 14:40:31 anaZ: Hmm. Feb 20 14:40:36 Jaffa: MicroB, I hope? :) Feb 20 14:40:59 You know, many of the things in libosso are useful too.. lblocation.. Feb 20 14:41:08 RST38h: Who knows? Nokia having a proper MeeGo device is presumably about 12-18 months away; assuming the N900 successor is coming out with Harmattan Feb 20 14:41:15 dunno if mobline has libosso equivalent etc :) Feb 20 14:41:16 ShadowJK: that's all part of the Qt stack now Feb 20 14:41:33 osso too? Feb 20 14:42:00 well stuff like liblocation Feb 20 14:42:11 ah Feb 20 14:42:24 ShadowJK: Must have HAL though Feb 20 14:42:26 ShadowJK: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/raw/master/doc/html/index.html Feb 20 14:43:33 * RST38h goes to look at the current Moblin apps Feb 20 14:43:34 i thought hal is going away overall Feb 20 14:43:49 Shadow: No way, it is a hardware abstraction layer Feb 20 14:43:55 hello everyone. Feb 20 14:44:00 Shadow: If anything, it will have to grow Feb 20 14:44:13 there's of course many things in libosso that would be saner to put elsewhere, like the screen on/off stuff... Feb 20 14:44:25 eeanm: involved with meego btw? Feb 20 14:44:42 nope Feb 20 14:44:47 alright Feb 20 14:44:49 Shadow: /dev/fb* Feb 20 14:44:55 ioctl should do the job Feb 20 14:45:03 anaZ: for now, the MeeGo repo has basically the same content as Moblin, when will the Qt packages from Maemo be introduced? Feb 20 14:45:04 um Feb 20 14:45:08 well I don't consider harmattan to be meego :) Feb 20 14:45:18 How about X's DPMS extension... Feb 20 14:45:41 blino: they won't Feb 20 14:45:56 blino: the Qt packages for Maemo are specific for Maemo 5 Feb 20 14:46:00 they don't make sense elsewhere Feb 20 14:46:18 how abour 4.6? ;) Feb 20 14:46:24 4.6.2 yes Feb 20 14:46:33 but it's just like any other distro: just package it up Feb 20 14:46:41 ah how cute, Moblin has got its own App Manager Feb 20 14:47:02 no finger scroll but it is ok Feb 20 14:47:35 aren't moblin devices netbooks? so of course no finger scroll Feb 20 14:47:41 thiago_home: so the Qt UI will be totally different from what Nokia showed before? Feb 20 14:47:42 * ShadowJK nods Feb 20 14:47:58 blino: what UI are you thinking of? Feb 20 14:48:00 and indeed HAL is going away Feb 20 14:48:02 blino: a matter of configuration isn't :D Feb 20 14:48:09 blino: the one presented as the Maemo 6 UI? Feb 20 14:48:11 we don't have it anymore in Moblin Feb 20 14:48:41 Feb 20 14:48:50 seems like Linux is changing its mind about that every few years Feb 20 14:48:52 damien_l: what? Feb 20 14:48:53 whats HAL? Feb 20 14:49:04 anaZ: we have it back ? Feb 20 14:49:11 ab3339: the computer that killed Dave :-) Feb 20 14:49:11 what is it? Feb 20 14:49:14 HAL Feb 20 14:49:16 hald Feb 20 14:49:18 a linux api Feb 20 14:49:18 no Feb 20 14:49:21 hal is gone Feb 20 14:49:23 RIP Feb 20 14:49:25 right Feb 20 14:49:28 pkg might be there Feb 20 14:49:33 but nothing depends on it Feb 20 14:49:33 damien: if hal is going away, what is going to provide common api to hardware? Feb 20 14:49:38 that odassy movie? Feb 20 14:49:39 need to drop :) Feb 20 14:49:41 with two architectures to maintain? Feb 20 14:49:44 a herd of ponies Feb 20 14:49:51 RST38h: libudev + derivatives Feb 20 14:49:52 ab3339: yes Feb 20 14:49:55 ah Feb 20 14:49:59 hmm Feb 20 14:50:07 thiago_home: yes, I was thinking about the Maemo 6 one Feb 20 14:50:58 the MeeGo UI has been announced to be based on Qt, but no components available now? Feb 20 14:51:11 blino: the Maemo 6 UI is not the Maemo 5 UI Feb 20 14:51:21 and whatever was presented in the Summit last year was preliminary Feb 20 14:51:23 it's not finished Feb 20 14:51:42 besides, Nokia reserves the right to completely change the look-and-feel from stock MeeGo in its own devices Feb 20 14:51:50 and the maemo 6 ui probably isn't the real meego ui :) (even though maemo 6 is now meego...) Feb 20 14:52:11 I really wish they didn't rename maemo 6, its just confusing :D Feb 20 14:52:22 maemo 6 is still maemo 6 Feb 20 14:52:25 but marketing isn't always about clarity Feb 20 14:52:27 no its not Feb 20 14:52:28 any renaming is just marketing Feb 20 14:52:35 harmattan is still harmattan, maemo 6 is no more Feb 20 14:52:40 now its meego Feb 20 14:52:57 right, I never refer to it as Maemo 6 anyway Feb 20 14:53:06 i dont like "meego" ... it feels like iam saying "i am going" Feb 20 14:53:06 for me it's always been Fremantle and Harmattan Feb 20 14:53:09 :) Feb 20 14:53:11 and the I-one Feb 20 14:53:31 thiago_home: but MeeGo is said to us Qt as UI backend, for now, everything is still clutter-based in the repos Feb 20 14:53:55 blino: that goes to show that MeeGo UI will also be different from Moblin UI Feb 20 14:54:27 blino: those repos are just a copy of moblin's current ones afaik Feb 20 14:54:30 well yea, at the moment meego is just marketing :) I'm guessing the first "meego" release they talk about coming in q2 2010 is going to be just moblin, in the same way harmattan is still going to be maemo. Feb 20 14:54:39 Meego 1.0 UI for netbooks will mainly be Clutter based Feb 20 14:54:41 http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/moblin-2.html Feb 20 14:54:51 That is the current Moblin UI, supposedly Feb 20 14:58:04 nope Feb 20 14:58:12 that is ancient Feb 20 14:59:13 this is moblin 2.0 Feb 20 14:59:43 looks nice Feb 20 14:59:53 screen size was big Feb 20 14:59:56 anaZ: on a sidenote, is the idea to have 'public OBS' for meego? as in, people can access, make their own home: repositories, etc? Feb 20 15:00:33 anaZ: Says 2.1 =) Feb 20 15:00:49 how about meego just use OBS instead having their own :> Feb 20 15:00:56 Stskeeps: long term maybe… but for now it would be difficult Feb 20 15:01:14 I don't think its that hard to add a distro to OBS Feb 20 15:01:30 eeanm: i am in a 18 hour build queue atm, no, seperate OBS makes sense Feb 20 15:01:30 :P Feb 20 15:01:34 Stskeeps: need to see if we can use the LF build system for this :) Feb 20 15:01:57 what devices have been released with moblin? Feb 20 15:02:00 anaZ: okay :/ there's a big benefit to home: repositories as it invites contributors to the system Feb 20 15:02:03 if any Feb 20 15:02:12 Stskeeps: yes, I nkow Feb 20 15:02:14 know Feb 20 15:02:25 anaZ: so in the longer term it's for sure valuable to look at Feb 20 15:02:26 Stskeeps: heh okay. perhaps run our own instance of OBS. Feb 20 15:02:52 the main benefit of OBS is that you could upload your code once and have packages for multiple architectures Feb 20 15:03:03 obviously thats an important feature if meego is going to work at all... Feb 20 15:03:06 anaZ: but let's look closer at the topic when there's code on the table :) Feb 20 15:03:13 true :) Feb 20 15:04:57 actually Nokia should probalby hire Novell to run an OBS that lets you upload a Qt app and produce binaries for various versions of symbian, meego arm, meego x86 Feb 20 15:05:30 eeanm: if you read between the lines, there is a MeeGo OBS Feb 20 15:05:30 :P Feb 20 15:06:19 Stskeeps: heya. was there any news in the past ~20 hours? Feb 20 15:06:28 th0br0: none, surprisingly Feb 20 15:06:34 Mh, ok :) Feb 20 15:17:23 eeanm: for Symbian? Feb 20 15:17:29 * RST38h laughs diabilically Feb 20 15:17:33 diabOlically Feb 20 15:30:15 hey th0br0, nice to see you here :p Feb 20 15:30:32 heya lainwir3d :D same goes to you i guess Feb 20 15:42:59 eeanm: why would Novell be the ideal suited company to do that? Feb 20 15:43:19 they never really supported ARM Feb 20 15:43:31 and not even us with port openSUSE 11.2 to ARM Feb 20 15:43:54 As, presumably, experts on OBS Feb 20 15:43:55 also, there were public statements like: "Novell will never do ARM" Feb 20 15:44:28 ShadowJK: but I developed with dl9pf the complete ARM support of OBS Feb 20 15:44:41 and even lots of other OBS code since 2006 Feb 20 15:45:02 and we are part of MeeGo, so why do we need Novell Feb 20 15:45:11 here? Feb 20 15:45:58 they had never any shares in the ARM stuff at all Feb 20 15:46:21 importance of cpu architechure (arm) is totally overplayed Feb 20 15:46:38 it only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x) Feb 20 15:46:50 the rest is just linux Feb 20 15:47:10 villemv: and buildsystem, packaging, testing Feb 20 15:47:13 ok, gcc + toolchain too Feb 20 15:47:21 sure Feb 20 15:47:37 that was our work to get OBS working on ARM Feb 20 15:47:40 but meego doesn't really maintain gcc Feb 20 15:47:49 sorry, but what does OBS stand for in this context? Feb 20 15:47:56 explain maintain? Feb 20 15:48:07 "commit modifications" Feb 20 15:48:10 OpenSUSE Build Service Feb 20 15:48:15 OBS initially used to stand for "openSUSE Build Service" Feb 20 15:48:16 ah, thanks Feb 20 15:48:26 but since its now used for many other distros Feb 20 15:48:31 villemv, gcc for arm is mostly like throwing a dice and picking a gcc version and hoping that nothing important like the kernel miscompiles :D Feb 20 15:48:35 the name might not be accurate anymore Feb 20 15:48:55 we are discussing a rename Feb 20 15:48:59 to something like Feb 20 15:49:05 Linux Build Platform Feb 20 15:49:09 or the like Feb 20 15:49:22 ScriptRipper: "we". you are on opensuse guy then? Feb 20 15:49:37 OBS is a good acronym Feb 20 15:49:42 oh, you refer to my IRC coak Feb 20 15:49:51 that is historical Feb 20 15:49:53 How about "Open Build Service" :P Feb 20 15:50:05 we discussed that either Feb 20 15:50:12 "Other Build Service" Feb 20 15:50:22 YABS Feb 20 15:50:30 s/service/system Feb 20 15:50:38 OMG Build Service! Feb 20 15:50:42 thanks Feb 20 15:50:46 the other root of confusion is also Feb 20 15:50:53 there is a FOSS project Feb 20 15:51:04 and there are services running in the net using it Feb 20 15:51:09 YABS seems good Feb 20 15:51:26 :D Feb 20 15:51:47 we end up in the same problem like with the meego guys naming the new kid Feb 20 15:52:22 and: i work now for the Linux Foundation Feb 20 15:52:35 and i was never a Novell employee Feb 20 15:52:41 Maemo, Moblin, meego. MBS? Feb 20 15:52:52 even though I still use my old openSUSE cloak Feb 20 15:52:55 in IRC Feb 20 15:53:01 Maemo and Moblin are dead Feb 20 15:53:58 GAN900 with what consequences for OBS naming ? Feb 20 15:54:17 None? Feb 20 15:55:13 villemv: in the sense that i developed parts of OBS yes. Novell employee: No Feb 20 15:55:30 alright ScriptRipper Feb 20 15:56:20 I should switch to a Linux Foundation cloak then not to confuse people Feb 20 15:58:53 it only matters in a few core components (kernel, drivers, x) Feb 20 15:59:03 that is not totally true Feb 20 15:59:19 its a bit more components in practise that rely on arch specifica Feb 20 15:59:46 we have seen that during a port of Moblin and openSUSE to ARM Feb 20 15:59:50 using OBS Feb 20 16:00:12 hi again, anyone with ghost armor screen protector? :) Feb 20 16:03:40 sh0gun: have you asked in #maemo? Feb 20 16:05:43 ScriptRipper: um, because OBS is great technology. Feb 20 16:06:01 ScriptRipper: running an ARM compiler ain't exactly rocket science... Feb 20 16:06:23 and is hardly the same thing as developing an ARM distribution, we already do that Feb 20 16:06:35 not asked in #maemo yet Feb 20 16:06:38 I will try Feb 20 16:07:51 eeanm: no running an ARM compiler is not rocket science Feb 20 16:08:05 but running cross compilation on x86 Feb 20 16:08:31 without the package noticing it and without the need to rewrite pkgs for cross compile Feb 20 16:08:41 is *not so obvious* anymore Feb 20 16:09:08 so the OBS implementation for ARM had as a requirement Feb 20 16:09:10 that's not OBS's job Feb 20 16:09:10 that Feb 20 16:09:17 I thought obs was doing that already Feb 20 16:09:18 but OBS solves so many of the problems of allowing the public access to a multi-distro build farm... Feb 20 16:09:58 but yea OBS isn't magic. eg if you want to build RPMs and debs you obviously need a spec file and a debian/ directory Feb 20 16:10:13 eeanm: exactly Feb 20 16:10:27 but most .spec files do not work for cross compilation Feb 20 16:10:38 and we wanted to solve that Feb 20 16:10:40 Jaffa: heh - but you've got to reply - we need the weight/attention! Feb 20 16:10:46 without the need to rewrite them Feb 20 16:10:52 and also Feb 20 16:11:00 OBS should solve the problem Feb 20 16:11:02 that Feb 20 16:11:15 not dependencies to cross or native build Feb 20 16:11:22 get put into the packages Feb 20 16:11:53 so that one could *transparently* switch between native build, emulator and cross build Feb 20 16:12:33 how does obs to the cross compilation btw? Feb 20 16:12:42 we wanted to use openSUSE 11.2 with 3500 pkgs as a genuie pig Feb 20 16:12:55 when you compare it with, say, scratchbox / sb2 Feb 20 16:13:08 it can do the same as scratchbox Feb 20 16:13:20 but it is not invasive as scratchbox Feb 20 16:13:27 but user controllable Feb 20 16:13:29 * eeanm is so glad that meego means the eventual end of using scratchbox for development at least... Feb 20 16:13:31 ok, so it's using some LD_PRELOAD hacks? Feb 20 16:14:04 we solve this with the OBS internal API Feb 20 16:14:16 that sets up the build environment Feb 20 16:14:31 it is capable to setup virtual machines and emulators Feb 20 16:14:37 before the build starts Feb 20 16:14:42 lbt: heh Feb 20 16:15:03 and even a combination of both Feb 20 16:15:25 so you can do the same as with scratchbox Feb 20 16:15:26 anyone know already what gcc version MeeGo will be using? Feb 20 16:15:38 but it is not *invasive* as scratchbox Feb 20 16:16:03 villemv: i heard it will be Fedora 12 based Feb 20 16:16:14 villemv: meego is currently marketing jargon. meego-the-technology is too far in the future to say I'd guess. Feb 20 16:16:14 ok, that's very cutting edge Feb 20 16:16:15 so it means gcc 44 or higher Feb 20 16:16:28 also, we need gcc 44 for ARM stuff Feb 20 16:16:46 or higher Feb 20 16:16:55 eeanm: yeah, I'm just wondering what we'll eventually have access to Feb 20 16:17:08 e.g .that we won't be stuck w/ gcc 4,2 Feb 20 16:17:37 hallo Feb 20 16:17:39 what distro used gcc 4.2 please? Feb 20 16:17:56 fremantle does I think Feb 20 16:18:22 well, codesourcery not fsf, right Feb 20 16:18:41 sbox-i486-pc-linux-gnu-gcc (GCC) 4.2.1 Feb 20 16:19:32 but that does not matter so much in OBS Feb 20 16:19:59 you can rewrite packaging and build install rules Feb 20 16:20:15 gcc 4.4.2 Feb 20 16:20:17 so you can have multiple compiler versions in parallel Feb 20 16:20:42 Maemo 5.0: gcc-4.2-base_4.2.1-4maemo9 Feb 20 16:20:48 anyone know how good c++0x "auto" support is in that gcc? Feb 20 16:20:55 that is really pretty old Feb 20 16:20:55 I know it has it, but not about the maturity Feb 20 16:21:12 ScriptRipper, i think it's 2007 cs Feb 20 16:21:23 ah Feb 20 16:21:30 dev tools in maemo 5 are indeed very old, debian etch era Feb 20 16:21:34 villemv: you wouldn't want to use that prerelease stuff I don't think... Feb 20 16:21:41 scratchbox-toolchain-cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7 Feb 20 16:21:48 right :) Feb 20 16:21:53 uff Feb 20 16:21:58 eeanm: pre-standard, but actually implemented. it might be nice for prototyping etc Feb 20 16:22:07 I guess. I'd just avoid it :) Feb 20 16:22:20 and use ruby for prototyping Feb 20 16:22:30 or whatever your flavor is ;) Feb 20 16:22:53 I mean prototyping in the sense of "implement a part of c++ program" Feb 20 16:22:58 i mean, all this uncertainty will soon be removed when the MeeGo OBS goes public Feb 20 16:23:05 that's called implementing... Feb 20 16:23:11 obviously I would use python for thought experiments Feb 20 16:23:12 but yea I wouldn't use that stuff there Feb 20 16:23:44 I meant to say "PROTOTYPE a part of c++ program" Feb 20 16:24:03 ScriptRipper: wait so meego is using OBS? I really lost the thread of what you were saying before :D Feb 20 16:24:06 Why do you need to prototype a C++ program? Feb 20 16:24:14 as opposed to writing it in C++? Feb 20 16:24:22 RST38h: for testing good desing? Feb 20 16:24:35 it's actually a good practice ... for bigger projects for sure... Feb 20 16:24:38 And why can't you test design in C++? Feb 20 16:24:43 RST38h: he is talking about prototyping in C++, which doesn't make sense ot me :) Feb 20 16:24:45 yes, MeeGo and Moblin use OBS Feb 20 16:24:53 depending on the size of the project that'd be kinda difficult. Feb 20 16:25:02 the proble with OBS Feb 20 16:25:03 besides, compiling takes time Feb 20 16:25:03 is Feb 20 16:25:20 Why would you want to test a lot of design instead of implementing it piece by piece? Feb 20 16:25:23 that it stands for openSUSE Buildservice @ Novell Feb 20 16:25:29 aka Feb 20 16:25:34 build.opensuse.org Feb 20 16:25:40 why is that a problem Feb 20 16:25:41 which is not meant Feb 20 16:25:44 of course you need to prototype a component for c++ program in c++ Feb 20 16:25:44 RST38h: so that you easily revert it ... Feb 20 16:25:51 because Novell will not host the project Feb 20 16:26:01 Why can't you revert stuff written piece by piece? Feb 20 16:26:06 well OBS is open source so its still not a problem :) Feb 20 16:26:12 nope Feb 20 16:26:25 villemv: well... take a look at the blender guys ... they're doing python prototyping & converting to c afterwards. why? well, imho this way it's faster to add and test new features. Feb 20 16:26:33 but OBS also stands for the Service, and not only for the Source Code Feb 20 16:26:40 ofc, for a small project that's pretty useless but for bigger ones ... Feb 20 16:26:43 which sometimes confuses Feb 20 16:26:57 Useless for bigger projects too Feb 20 16:27:15 Ability to break bigger tasks into smaller tasks and plan their execution is useful though Feb 20 16:32:57 top-down stepwise refinement doesn't mix very well with C++ because of the amount of boilerplate it requires, which you end up having to change any time the design changes. and that is why people prototype in python. Feb 20 16:33:40 Well designed program does not require too much boilerplate Feb 20 16:33:54 If it does, you are doing something wrong Feb 20 16:34:10 C++ by its very nature requires large amount of boilerplate Feb 20 16:34:23 (usually, by designing things that had to be left out) Feb 20 16:34:31 What boilerplate? Feb 20 16:34:37 if you design the whole program beforehand this does not matter Feb 20 16:34:56 Designing whole program beforehand is a bad design practice Feb 20 16:35:21 Even although a lot of software engineering books written by non-programmers will teach you that Feb 20 16:36:05 boilerplate in C++? every time you write a constructor, destructor, class/function declaration, or have to choose between public and private - that is boilerplate you don't need in a prototype Feb 20 16:36:22 Really? Feb 20 16:36:29 And how do I "choose"? Feb 20 16:36:43 (given that I already have public: and private: sections in my class) Feb 20 16:38:16 RST38h: The idea is that in a prototype, you hack everything to just check if it'd work. As such, you just write everything as public, because private is something you do to make things pretty when viewed from the outside Feb 20 16:38:33 RST38h: and then you realize you need something private to be public and have to cahnge your class definition anyway Feb 20 16:38:40 leinir: I can just as well write everything as public in C++ Feb 20 16:38:51 Either way, there is no boilerplate involved Feb 20 16:39:05 RST38h: if you never ever change your class definition (because you designed your entire program before beginning to write it) then there is no benefit to prototyping Feb 20 16:39:18 Hehe Feb 20 16:39:28 It is true that I rarely change my class definitions Feb 20 16:39:44 But I never design the whole thing from the start :) Feb 20 16:40:16 if you make even a slight attempt at following OO methodology with real public interfaces, the class definitions end up changing a LOT Feb 20 16:40:43 you either plan them out with UML or something, or you prototype them Feb 20 16:40:58 personally i prefer to prototype and then look at what really needs to be public/private Feb 20 16:53:46 Hello Feb 20 16:54:03 heya ezjd Feb 20 16:54:26 Hi Stskeeps Feb 20 16:54:33 how's it going? Feb 20 16:55:19 Good. I have been looking into the mails and IRC log to try to get more information ... Feb 20 16:57:51 Stskeeps: When can I expect more information like detailed architecture/document is available? Feb 20 16:59:15 ezjd: week or two Feb 20 16:59:23 ezjd: if you have specific questions by all means ask it Feb 20 16:59:39 just because there is no pretty picture does not mean you can't get answers ;) Feb 20 17:00:24 anyone have any idea when we'll get our first look at meego? Feb 20 17:00:52 first look as in "somewhat tested alpha images"? Feb 20 17:00:59 hopefully first few days of march Feb 20 17:01:21 arjan: Thx! Feb 20 17:01:23 "look" meaning anything from screenshots to looking at any sort of code or anything for that matter Feb 20 17:01:47 i actually havent seen anything about it other than the nokia intel announcement Feb 20 17:01:52 and the meego.com website Feb 20 17:02:24 ~botsnack Feb 20 17:02:25 DocScrutinizer: thanks Feb 20 17:02:35 moin Stskeeps Feb 20 17:02:45 morning DocScrutinizer Feb 20 17:02:59 bobdobolina_: screenshots will depend on what device fwiw Feb 20 17:03:17 netbook will look a little bit familiar to moblin 2.1 (but with many improvements/changes everywhere) Feb 20 17:03:36 Will MeeGo UI framework be based on Harmattan's? Feb 20 17:03:43 arjan: maybe a untraditional question, but are there any issues/things to help with, that we can do early on? (from technical point of view) - always helps to have more hands Feb 20 17:03:57 arjan: or maybe "MeeGo 101" of materials to read up on :) Feb 20 17:04:03 ezjd: you mean the Qt one? for handsets absolutely Feb 20 17:04:24 Stskeeps: right now we just need to get the infra ready Feb 20 17:04:30 so that there is a place to help Feb 20 17:04:34 :nod: Feb 20 17:06:06 Because Harmattan just released and opened UI code (so called DUI), I am referring to that (based on Qt) Feb 20 17:06:25 well, there's OBS, what other infra is getting set up? (not sure if it's mentioned anywhere) Feb 20 17:06:27 ezjd: yup you can assume it'll be based on that Feb 20 17:06:33 of the technical kind Feb 20 17:06:36 Stskeeps: accounts, contribution agreement etc Feb 20 17:06:51 repos? procedure to submit stuff to repos and track its status? Feb 20 17:06:54 we also are moving the git trees for projects Feb 20 17:07:26 arjan: contribution agreement doesn't mean copyright assignment i presume Feb 20 17:07:32 not that I know of Feb 20 17:07:46 more like "I promise that what I contribute I have the rights to contribute" kind of thing Feb 20 17:07:49 ah Feb 20 17:07:52 that's a good thing Feb 20 17:08:15 but as disclaimer, I have not seen final language Feb 20 17:08:27 but I'm hoping it looks a lot like the kernel contribution agreement Feb 20 17:08:31 i probably need to clear that with my upstream contractor as well Feb 20 17:08:52 (and of course, if maemo.org distmaster role covers helping out with meego too :) Feb 20 17:09:06 I'd hope so ;) Feb 20 17:10:03 Both Moblin and Harmattan are assuming OpenGL support, will Meego do so? Feb 20 17:10:29 depends on desktop and widget set in use i guess Feb 20 17:10:33 (gles) Feb 20 17:11:28 yeah we assume a hardware 3d engine Feb 20 17:11:59 you can argue for hours which exact extensions are required vs optional Feb 20 17:12:05 but I'm much more pragmatic ;-) Feb 20 17:12:20 there's already some abstraction layers for the differences Feb 20 17:12:44 but from a base system area and "normal" qt, it could be possible to have non-GLES too, if you -really- wanted it, i guess Feb 20 17:12:47 so in the end opengl/gles matters only to the implementation details of one component Feb 20 17:12:56 arjan: so meego will NOT work on a system without 3d-hardware? Feb 20 17:13:05 MisterN: that is a broad statement Feb 20 17:13:08 Stskeeps Hint: Moblin Developer Edition (live CD) apparently does not require OGL right away Feb 20 17:13:17 the reference user experience of netbook and handset will use/need 3d hardware Feb 20 17:13:32 arjan: it is broad, and that's why i asked! Feb 20 17:13:36 Stskeeps: At least it starts up without it and shows the welcome screen Feb 20 17:13:44 that does not mean that one could not make some UI without it on top of meego Feb 20 17:13:45 handset means phone? Feb 20 17:13:48 yeah Feb 20 17:13:56 why not just say phone? :P Feb 20 17:14:10 you know people would actually understand what you mean Feb 20 17:14:12 sorry too many hours of negotiation with nokia folks Feb 20 17:14:17 they don't call the n900 a phone ;) Feb 20 17:14:32 *rolleyes* Feb 20 17:14:38 portable computer or something ;0 Feb 20 17:14:50 mobile computer ;) Feb 20 17:14:55 that one Feb 20 17:15:16 i'm not sure if that's so clever, because that suggests that computer companies are better at it Feb 20 17:15:18 and it is Feb 20 17:16:04 for some users the word "phone" implies a whole slew of gsm/3gp features not pvresent in n900 Feb 20 17:16:48 why do you think Nokia is any worse on computers or rubbershoes than any other manufacturer? Feb 20 17:17:16 Like "phone" automatically means PTT, 3g media sharing, 3g video calls, etc :) Feb 20 17:18:42 honestly from a mere "phone" POV N900 isn't outstanding Feb 20 17:18:52 it makes calls Feb 20 17:19:01 it is fine Feb 20 17:19:06 yeah Feb 20 17:19:14 I am in phone conferences every week with the N900 Feb 20 17:19:30 I hate the weight and the brickish form (E70 was so much more comfortable) but N900 is ok as phone Feb 20 17:19:32 it can sustain a 3-hour conf or more in the battery lifetime Feb 20 17:19:48 But I think assuming HW GL support will extremely narrow down the list of targeted devices. At work, I frequently saw customer want to strip down graphic part of chip to reduce cost and save power. Feb 20 17:19:53 N900 shines when in speakerphone mode though Feb 20 17:19:58 DocScrutinizer: It's not OMFGwtFBBQAEWSUM!!!111eleventyone, but it makes calls just fine :) Feb 20 17:20:00 hildon-home uses 100% of my cpu; rebooting the n900 was not the solution; any ideas? btw after few seconds the n900 asks me to kill this process but its for the home-screen so it will be restartet and the problem starts again. :( Feb 20 17:20:03 I've seen the designs for the successor of the N900 and, trust me, it looks much better Feb 20 17:20:07 argh wrong channel :> Feb 20 17:20:29 ezjd: all smart phones released today, and all the ones in the can for the next few years, will have GL support Feb 20 17:20:32 thiago_home: you can't talk about it other than that, though, i take it? No news on physical keyboard for us, right? ;) Feb 20 17:20:45 leinir: I can't tell you any specifics Feb 20 17:20:50 Yeah, thought so :) Feb 20 17:20:51 leinir: I can just say it'll be awesome Feb 20 17:20:58 Glad to hear it's nifty looking though :) Feb 20 17:21:04 I can repeat what has been publicly said, though Feb 20 17:21:15 capacitive, multitouch touchscreen Feb 20 17:21:24 bah Feb 20 17:21:29 ezjd: if you want a fast feeling UI, you need hw accel. Feb 20 17:21:30 cheaper or at the same price level as the n900, thiago_home? Feb 20 17:21:39 th0br0: that I don't even know Feb 20 17:21:40 ezjd: if you don't want a fancy UI, s40 is there ;) Feb 20 17:21:41 k Feb 20 17:22:02 ebassi: trust me, that isn't the truth, and I don't think MeeGo is only targeting smartphone Feb 20 17:22:03 now, here's an interesting question: how are we going to do multitouch with X11? :-) Feb 20 17:22:20 thiago_home: Something which i'm not so hot on, but ah well :) Feb 20 17:22:20 thiago_home: umm, there is 1.6 Feb 20 17:22:22 ezjd: "trust me" too Feb 20 17:22:28 or 1.7? they delayed it to 1.7 iirc Feb 20 17:22:38 thiago: X 1.8 has multi touch capable stuff Feb 20 17:22:38 1.7 XInput2 Feb 20 17:22:44 but even XInput2 isn't good enough Feb 20 17:22:47 http://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/2010/01/29/multi-touch-support-in-linuxxorggtk/ thiago_home Feb 20 17:22:52 we need a different solution Feb 20 17:23:00 thiago: hmm interesting; I know that we have multitouch in moblin Feb 20 17:23:05 what's more, XInput2 requires a complete rewrite of Qt's mouse, tablet and keyboard handling Feb 20 17:23:49 i guess that'll come sooner or later anyway... ? Feb 20 17:23:53 thiago_home: we had to do that for gtk+ as well; it's still sitting in a branch, right now Feb 20 17:23:58 why isn't it good enough btw? Feb 20 17:24:18 ebassi: Let's not talk about smartphone as the definition isn't the same to everyone, how about other targeting devices? Feb 20 17:24:34 thiago_home: i guess that should be done then :P Feb 20 17:24:37 I don't know the specifics Feb 20 17:24:40 but I can get it for you Feb 20 17:24:49 ezjd: for meego? Feb 20 17:24:53 ezjd: other devices may or may not share the same UI Feb 20 17:25:05 ezjd: but at least all atom silicon has some form of 3D engine Feb 20 17:25:05 thiago_home: you mean why it isn't good? that'd be interesting. Feb 20 17:25:16 what arjan said :-) Feb 20 17:25:45 ebassi: yes. I assume Meego has same UI framework for at least most devices. Feb 20 17:25:45 putting a baseline of gles2 enabled devices for qt(+orbit/dui) makes sense Feb 20 17:25:48 and a lot of the arm world has 3D as well Feb 20 17:26:00 ezjd: that's not quite a correct assumption Feb 20 17:26:06 netbook, phone, tv, car are all very very different Feb 20 17:26:09 th0br0: like I said, I don't know the details. I know that the information presented by XInput2 isn't the best format for Qt's consumption. Feb 20 17:26:13 Qt is the application API for all Feb 20 17:26:15 ah ok Feb 20 17:26:29 but the actual UI framework.... (like home screen etc) is very different between them Feb 20 17:26:35 th0br0: and from what I've been told, the maintainers agree with us. The thing is that it requires changes to the extension again. Feb 20 17:27:00 which would delay multitouch for at least 1 other x.org release? Feb 20 17:27:24 so what phones have OSS 3D drivers? Feb 20 17:27:30 arjan: In arm world, that is the reality that HW GL isn't always available from my experience. Feb 20 17:27:55 ezjd: but for devices where you don't invest in graphics capabilities you also don't expect graphics to be nice. Feb 20 17:27:57 simple as that Feb 20 17:28:07 ezjd: on anything new, it is Feb 20 17:28:08 in english "you can't eat your cake and ahve it" Feb 20 17:28:11 at least GLES2 Feb 20 17:28:29 ebassi: ours too, it's in a branch Feb 20 17:28:30 ezjd: the problem is licensing Feb 20 17:28:47 ali1234: probably none of them Feb 20 17:28:48 ebassi: there's a lot to be tested, including the fallback to X servers that don't support XInput2 Feb 20 17:28:57 thiago_home: true Feb 20 17:29:04 ebassi: and the entire IM mechanism in Qt woks on raw X events, so they need to be ported over too Feb 20 17:29:12 RST38h: that's what i figure. which means no truly free meego for phones Feb 20 17:29:31 ali1234: that's up the the hw guy though Feb 20 17:29:40 arjan: we can assume different UI framework for different device, but I think we can use the flexibility of Qt to achive that. But Harmattan UI isn't at lease now. Feb 20 17:29:40 if they negotiate a license to get open drivers... purchasing power ftw Feb 20 17:29:49 arjan: i know, that is the problem Feb 20 17:29:56 ali1234: Well... There are other reasons why we would like MeeGo to have optional OGL requirement Feb 20 17:30:30 ali1234: as long as the phone vendor is ok/happy with binary graphics drivers that is not going to change Feb 20 17:30:30 it basically means we won't even be able to make a replacement meego firmware for any device and legally distribute it because of driver licencing Feb 20 17:30:48 Stskeeps: as matter of fact, I am seeing something will go to market in next few years doesn't have it. Feb 20 17:30:52 ali1234: but once a big phone company says "this shall be open" all silicon vendors will figure it out ;) Feb 20 17:31:09 well as usual, i won't be holding my breath Feb 20 17:31:15 arjan: No :( Feb 20 17:31:16 we have a "fallback" Xfce environment in Moblin that could serve the non GL case, but don't expect any development on non GL envs Feb 20 17:31:22 instead i'll be making my own UI that doesn't require 3D Feb 20 17:31:30 or just using android instead Feb 20 17:31:45 the evil word! Feb 20 17:31:56 android has binary 3d just as well Feb 20 17:31:59 so good luck ;) Feb 20 17:32:02 arjan: In the case of ImageTech, it won't open anything until someone buys them out Feb 20 17:32:06 hahaha, well i need something that doesn't require 3D and also runs on a 240x320 screen Feb 20 17:32:26 arjan: android does not require 3d at all, it runs fine on a plain fb Feb 20 17:32:30 * mikeleib is using the fallback XCFE desktop right now Feb 20 17:32:34 thiago_home, capacitive equals the end of the line for my relationship with Nokia, unfortunately. Feb 20 17:32:34 current generation does. Feb 20 17:32:39 Nokia and TI have even brought us 3d drivers on N8x0, where there never were any before ;) Feb 20 17:32:39 ali1234: then yes, you'll have to write it :p Feb 20 17:32:46 define "current generation" Feb 20 17:32:51 GeneralAntilles: why? Feb 20 17:32:52 arjan: regarding fancy UI, assuming you agree with me KDE4 is a fancy UI, the openGL support is still optional. Feb 20 17:32:53 are they on 2.0 yet? Feb 20 17:32:54 * GeneralAntilles still can't believe they're abandoning their existing customer base like that for a MARKETING driven decision. Feb 20 17:33:04 thiago_home, because, quite frankly, capacitive sucks. Feb 20 17:33:12 thiago_home, and I can't stand to use it. Feb 20 17:33:17 ali1234 it was initially planned to write the android UI in full GL though! Feb 20 17:33:27 GeneralAntilles: most people prefer capacitive :P Feb 20 17:33:29 ezjd: they are still relying on Xrender isn'tit ? Feb 20 17:33:30 one thing I don't like about capacitive is that I can't use it while wearing gloves Feb 20 17:33:35 MisterN, that's subjective. Feb 20 17:33:37 th0br0: false, it was initially planned to use a chip that didn't have 3d acceleration at all Feb 20 17:33:38 ezjd: one thing to realize also is that without the hw accell, you burn more cpu time -> more power Feb 20 17:33:41 * mikeleib likes the capacative Feb 20 17:33:44 you need a meat stylus with capacitive Feb 20 17:33:48 * arjan hates capacitive Feb 20 17:33:49 ali1234: well, that's what i was told. Feb 20 17:33:54 i usually just remove the gloves Feb 20 17:33:59 and my girlfriend hates it too, she just does not register on capacitive ;) Feb 20 17:34:02 thiago_home, capacitive is way too many compromises for marketing buzzwords. Feb 20 17:34:04 the first android prototypes used omap850 which has no 3d Feb 20 17:34:05 but most of the time it's warm enough not to wear gloves Feb 20 17:34:26 they only changed that after the iphone came out Feb 20 17:34:56 arjan: without hw gl, CPU will be more busy, but with HW GL, power may be consumed more when idle. It is always to be considered. Feb 20 17:35:10 ezjd: that's why you powergate the gpu when it's idle Feb 20 17:35:10 MisterN: it's cold enough here 5 months of the year that I'd be wearing gloves Feb 20 17:35:17 mh k, ali1234, thanks for that inforamtoin Feb 20 17:35:18 GeneralAntilles: i haven't really tried resistive, but why do you think it's better? Feb 20 17:35:27 ezjd: again, are you sure your not using xorg's 2D drivers and Xrender? Feb 20 17:35:39 MisterN, more precise, broader range of input devices, better feel. Feb 20 17:35:51 MisterN, capacitive just doesn't make any sense at 266 ppi Feb 20 17:36:02 ezjd: if your system is idle and nothing sends updates to the GPU, the GPU goes in idle as well Feb 20 17:36:04 erjd: atleast omap3 switches sgx entirely off :) Feb 20 17:36:05 GeneralAntilles: i guess i would have to compare myself Feb 20 17:36:16 Precision is the key Feb 20 17:36:24 GeneralAntilles: broader range has to do with the fact that it's cheaper Feb 20 17:36:24 But also my fingers KNOW how to use resistive Feb 20 17:36:25 well with a glove you NEVER have precision Feb 20 17:36:36 Seems omap3 is even able to keep NEON unpowered while the arm core remains active Feb 20 17:36:37 damine_l: I believer 2D driver is used but it is NOT hw OpenGL driver (DRI for example) Feb 20 17:36:38 and that knowledge translates exactly ZERO for capacitive Feb 20 17:36:40 GeneralAntilles: and more users has never been an argument for us Feb 20 17:36:58 GeneralAntilles: my fingers on the other hand KNOW how to use capacitive Feb 20 17:37:11 ebassi: GPU idel dosen't mean it is powered down. Feb 20 17:37:29 The really stupidly simple answer is for Nokia to not let their marketing people completely drive product decisions Feb 20 17:37:37 and release at least one device with each type Feb 20 17:37:40 ezjd: for good silicon it does Feb 20 17:37:43 then users can pick the kind they prefer Feb 20 17:37:45 ezjd: that's what power gates are for Feb 20 17:37:50 for ARM soc, it's a matter of not enabling the PLLs driving and your 3D engine sucks no power Feb 20 17:37:52 and you don't alienate a large portion of your customer base. Feb 20 17:37:53 ezjd: if it's idle it's general consensus that it should be powered down Feb 20 17:37:55 GeneralAntilles: trust me, marketing doesn't drive product decisions Feb 20 17:37:59 arjan: It is a little off topic now. Feb 20 17:38:06 GeneralAntilles: if they did, capacitive would've been here two years ago Feb 20 17:38:14 thiago_home, then why in the world would they choose to move to exclusive capacitive? :) Feb 20 17:38:17 ezjd: if it doesn't, it's either a software issue (bad driver authors, no cookie for you) or an *impressively* bad hardware design Feb 20 17:38:31 GeneralAntilles: I'm pretty sure they believe it's superior technology Feb 20 17:38:37 arjan: My original question is whether we should assume HW Open GL support. Feb 20 17:38:45 ezjd: the former is fixable by chaining drivers authors to their desk; the latter is fixable by *not* buying that hardware Feb 20 17:38:45 thiago_home, I'm pretty sure they're idiots, then. Feb 20 17:39:08 power management is another much bigger topic. Feb 20 17:39:17 GeneralAntilles: right. So you know better than the qualified engineers in the #1 company in the largest market in the planet? Feb 20 17:39:29 ezjd: for now, meego assumes some form of gl support Feb 20 17:39:40 ezjd: at least, we tell application vendors that they can assume that Feb 20 17:39:50 attractive devices will have it anyways. :D Feb 20 17:39:53 thiago_home, I know both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. Feb 20 17:40:00 thiago_home, neither is clearly superior. Feb 20 17:40:16 thiago_home, I also know that I've been a Nokia customer for a long time and I've seen them make a lot of stupid decisions. Feb 20 17:40:30 thiago_home, I also know people are fallible. Feb 20 17:40:32 GeneralAntilles: big companies making stupid decisions? wow Feb 20 17:40:52 OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD Feb 20 17:40:58 arjan: If it is decided and no room for discussion, I will shut up. Feb 20 17:41:08 * arjan reads code that I wrote 2 years ago, and someone rewrote it in C++ Feb 20 17:41:12 thiago_home, if you're asserting that Nokia's hardware engineers are completely infallible then I'll point you to their inability to prevent N900 USB ports from falling out enmass. Feb 20 17:41:22 ezjd: the thing is that app vendors WANT such functionality Feb 20 17:41:26 just stop this senseless trolling... there's no need to get insulting and it's completely out of the scope of this channel. Feb 20 17:41:29 * arjan shudders at this code ;( Feb 20 17:41:31 GeneralAntilles: I'm not saying that they are infallible. Feb 20 17:41:43 GeneralAntilles: I'm simply saying I have no reason to believe you over them. Feb 20 17:41:46 thiago_home, just that my opinion is clearly not comparable to theirs? ;) Feb 20 17:41:50 arjan: that's because C++ is clearly superior Feb 20 17:42:00 thiago_home, yeah, not generally a productive way to hold discussions. Feb 20 17:42:03 arjan: next question is can MeeGo "fallback" to something with HW GL support? Feb 20 17:42:04 * GeneralAntilles moves on to something productive. Feb 20 17:42:06 damien_l: which does not imply that all c++ code is good. Feb 20 17:42:07 can someone guess how many people here come from from maemo and how many from moblin community, what is the ratio? Feb 20 17:42:17 sorry w/o GL support Feb 20 17:42:23 ezjd: you mean, is there sw rendering with neon/sse accel? Feb 20 17:42:28 BluesLee: 10-15:1? at least, that's my personal impression. Feb 20 17:42:28 GeneralAntilles: point being, I don't know you, I don't know your qualifications. For all I know, you could be a whiner. Feb 20 17:42:34 there is sw fallback, and at least for intel stuff we're working on sse accel for tha Feb 20 17:42:34 t Feb 20 17:42:37 thiago_home, just realize that Nokia has lost at least one customer and extremely dedicated contributor with this particular decision. Feb 20 17:42:40 GeneralAntilles: in any case, there's nothing I can do about the product decisions either, so the discussion has no point. Feb 20 17:42:48 BluesLee: i suppose many are from neither maemo nor moblin Feb 20 17:42:50 thiago: GA is one of the maemo community ambassadors Feb 20 17:43:06 thiago_home, plenty of information about me is a google search away. Feb 20 17:43:08 ezjd: something purely depends on CPU Feb 20 17:43:28 AGRH they also made my code StudlyCapped Feb 20 17:43:33 Anyway, whatever, apologies for cluttering up the channel with inanity. Feb 20 17:43:39 th0br0: i didnt know that moblin has an active community, no forum, few posts in ml etc Feb 20 17:44:08 BluesLee: nor did i :)the ration might be far worse actually. and most of those moblin guys are likely to be employed by intel (at least the ones in here) Feb 20 17:44:14 code StudlyCapped? Feb 20 17:45:47 GeneralAntilles: well, then I can only hope that something will change your mind. Feb 20 17:46:38 th0br0: we will see what will happen soon ... Feb 20 17:46:47 indeed BluesLee Feb 20 17:47:53 GeneralAntilles, perhaps another device vendor shipping a meego platform will fill your needs, then? Feb 20 17:48:04 fnordian900, one can only hope. Feb 20 17:48:13 fnordian900, we'll see how much differentiation comes into play, though. Feb 20 17:48:21 * ShadowJK realistically expects it'd take 3-4 generations before the screen becomes as awesome as N900 again :D Feb 20 17:48:47 Why? Feb 20 17:49:35 Well it took that long for the screen to become responsive and most of all consistent Feb 20 17:49:44 (n900) Feb 20 17:50:05 it is a good screen on the 900 Feb 20 17:50:09 Funny, I do not consider it very consistent. Feels like a minefield, never know when it accidentally clicks when scrolling Feb 20 17:52:03 the general SW fallback will Mesa in X in the framework is depending on GL command, which doesn't provide performance. Are you saying SW fallback is aother framework? Feb 20 17:52:44 ezjd: mesa fallback performance depends on how much your cpu vendor invests in optimizing it Feb 20 17:52:59 sse for intel, neon for arm etc Feb 20 17:54:00 so, fwiw, i've set up an mxr for repo.moblin and git.moblin for people to play w/ Feb 20 17:54:14 mesa fallback with a simple fragment program is 1 frame every 2s on x86 :p Feb 20 17:58:44 Actually I am thinking a Qt framework not depending OpenGL, which is basically SW solution not to a specific chip Feb 20 17:59:15 Qt has a raster engine too Feb 20 17:59:33 i have a combustion engine Feb 20 17:59:42 yes, that is what exactly I am pointing to :) Feb 20 18:00:17 i upgraded from Qt 4.0's "steam engine" Feb 20 18:00:17 on X11, it has 3 engines actually. The third is the native (X11) one. Feb 20 18:01:22 But Harmattan compisitor is based on QGLWidget which is tight to OpenGL and as a fundanmental module, it implies every part of UI will depending on OpenGL Feb 20 18:01:41 yes Feb 20 18:01:51 but the Harmattan compositor is designed to run a specific device Feb 20 18:02:29 the rest of the applications don't need to depend on GL Feb 20 18:02:41 Yes. As Arjan told me that it will the base of MeeGo. Feb 20 18:04:10 Other application can be redered to a back buffer by raster engine but eventually OpenGL involves becauses of compositer Feb 20 18:05:27 yes Feb 20 18:05:38 but if the hardware has no OpenGL, you won't use the compositor Feb 20 18:07:29 * CosmoHill yawns Feb 20 18:07:37 yes It depends. If window manager uses/is compositor, it will and it is generally true Feb 20 18:10:13 I probably need to look into KWin, for which opengl is optional. Feb 20 18:12:12 there is no shortage of window managers around Feb 20 18:12:44 I gotta go. Talk to you later. Feb 20 18:35:42 hey Feb 20 18:35:49 why is chromium in moblin? Feb 20 18:36:22 why not? Feb 20 18:36:46 what is chromium? Feb 20 18:37:07 a browser Feb 20 18:37:19 and a spyware :) Feb 20 18:37:21 thanks Feb 20 18:37:27 not really Feb 20 18:37:40 timeless_mbp: same reason dillo is in debian i guess Feb 20 18:37:57 to give people choice? Feb 20 18:38:34 CosmoHill: most companies that make hardware don't offer choice Feb 20 18:38:46 did your last tv ask you if you wanted to use KDE or Gnome? Feb 20 18:38:48 mine didn't Feb 20 18:39:10 i thought we were talking about software Feb 20 18:48:42 CosmoHill: well Feb 20 18:48:58 maemo and moblin are closer to platforms for hardware vendors Feb 20 18:49:15 i'm assuming that the software i indexed was roughly equivalent to 'core' Feb 20 18:50:50 as opposed to 'maemo extras' Feb 20 18:51:37 i think i know what you mean Feb 20 18:51:42 Seriously, I woulda gone crazy if Nokia had just announced "Maemo for other devices" Feb 20 18:51:54 you get to choose what extras you have, but not what parts of the core you have Feb 20 18:51:56 But Maemo for other devices + x86? Ummmm... Score? Feb 20 18:52:02 mukiex: Mer. Feb 20 18:52:25 mukiex: this is a better way. Feb 20 18:52:31 anyone heard of the LG Pop? Feb 20 18:52:31 timeless_mbp : Sadly, the only shot of Mer I saw was incredibly underwelming (0.17 on a Touchbook with eff all installed) Feb 20 18:52:37 iteratively would be very difficult. Feb 20 18:52:40 LG seem to make cheep touch screen phones Feb 20 18:54:51 Stskeeps: Are there any good Mer builds shown on youtube? Feb 20 18:55:25 mukiex: sec, got a cool one on n900.. Feb 20 18:56:05 http://twitter.com/stskeeps Feb 20 18:56:14 scroll down to the blip.tv one Feb 20 18:56:29 but, meego is where the action is now. Feb 20 18:56:41 People have GOT to stop showing Mer with nothing installed >_< Feb 20 18:57:17 When's the first test build/pre-alpha for MeeGo arrive? Feb 20 18:58:02 mukiex: weakest point of mer, agreed Feb 20 18:59:32 I wonder if there'll be any attempts to get AndroidExecutionEnvironment on it. Feb 20 18:59:58 the ubuntu stuff? Feb 20 19:00:14 I mean, it couldn't hurt ;) Feb 20 19:00:25 Of course, that depends entirely on what the overhead is. Feb 20 19:00:48 go read the canonical guys blog.. he got ideological scruples and never released the code Feb 20 19:02:07 * CosmoHill boots the ubuntu moblin remix Feb 20 19:02:58 Can't seem to find the post, Stskeeps Feb 20 19:03:21 mukiex: sec Feb 20 19:03:35 np Feb 20 19:03:42 http://blip.tv/file/3209258 Feb 20 19:04:09 (it is not speeded up.) Feb 20 19:06:03 Stskeeps: will Plasma Mobile be used in meego when it is stable and mature? Feb 20 19:06:17 wind-rider: i have no authority at all over meego Feb 20 19:06:18 :P Feb 20 19:06:42 hmm something isn't right Feb 20 19:06:43 using the ubuntu moblin remix, the fastest thing is the mouse cursor Feb 20 19:06:48 no, but I thought you might know it Feb 20 19:07:08 Stskeeps: because you created the channel Feb 20 19:07:10 nop, sorry, i don't know much about meego contents or plans Feb 20 19:07:23 wind-rider: just cos i was first person here and the channel exploded Feb 20 19:07:31 Stskeeps: hehe Feb 20 19:07:34 1 to 300 in a couple of hours Feb 20 19:08:18 Stskeeps: impressive Feb 20 19:08:40 wind-river, is Plasma Mobile the KDE-thingy? Feb 20 19:08:51 Terje1: indeed Feb 20 19:09:26 lol. wind-river is an insult i think :) Feb 20 19:09:33 Terje1: Plasma has several variants targeted at several form factors Feb 20 19:10:04 Oops Feb 20 19:10:16 Terje1: a variant targeted at touch-screen smart phones is developed now Feb 20 19:10:26 Terje1: never mind about that typo Feb 20 19:11:35 wind-rider, ok, sorry. Any reason why Plasma would be taken into use? Feb 20 19:12:17 if it's good, why not? Feb 20 19:12:23 but there's no decision to do it Feb 20 19:12:27 Terje1: it can be used as "home screen" with applets on it Feb 20 19:12:50 Stskeeps : Oh no, I meant the Canonical never releasing the Android code. I saw the blip.tv vid, it was pretty neat Feb 20 19:13:05 mukiex: oh, sec Feb 20 19:13:12 Here's hoping MeeGo gets 3D drivers for Tegra 2 by June/July ^_^ Feb 20 19:13:27 wind-rider, wouldn't hold my breath. Feb 20 19:13:32 mukiex, even the meego website says that falls to nvidia ;) Feb 20 19:13:52 Terje1: besides normal applets like a calendar or the weather, the user can also send applets from other devices over the network to control the media player on that device for example Feb 20 19:14:10 mukiex: http://mjfrey.blogspot.com/ Feb 20 19:14:27 Well, if they support OpenSolaris on the x86 side, hopefully they'll support MeeGo on ARM. Worst-case, hopefully someone can finagle their DSP/3D driver on Ubuntu to work. Feb 20 19:15:34 mukiex: usually, when someone makes a device and gets a video card, they hire a company to make the drivers that are good Feb 20 19:15:42 wind-rider, are the different Plasma variants somehow compatible? Feb 20 19:16:17 Terje1: yes Feb 20 19:16:59 Terje1: plasma can also be used for system notifications etc Feb 20 19:17:28 you know the "join the community" man with his arms in the air? that;'s how i feel about being online Feb 20 19:17:45 thiago_home: did I forget some killer feature? :) Feb 20 19:18:14 wind-rider, I'll wait eagerly for being able to send applets from my telly to my phone. :-) Feb 20 19:19:22 Terje1: here is an example Feb 20 19:19:25 Terje1: http://www.notmart.org/videodemo/remotejobs.ogv Feb 20 19:20:52 Terje1: a notification applet (in the video it shows a "New Mail" message) and a job applet (shows the progress of a file copying job) are sent from a desktop to a netbook Feb 20 19:22:05 wind-rider, neat. Feb 20 19:22:59 Being able to transport an RSS reader applet from phone to big television… Feb 20 19:23:45 Terje1: indeed, but also getting a notification when your work computer has finished downloading some large file while sitting on the couch Feb 20 19:24:12 moblin is pretty Feb 20 19:24:23 Terje1: also a Media Center variant of plasma is in the works, but the priority of that is lower than Plasma Mobile Feb 20 19:25:28 thiago_home, Terje1: do you know who makes decisions about if / when plasma will be used in Meego? Feb 20 19:25:42 what is mutter and why is it eating my processor? Feb 20 19:25:46 wind-rider: I don't think there's such a group to make that decision yet Feb 20 19:26:04 wind-rider: if it goes on technical terms, it actually is up to the plasma developers to make a story for their app Feb 20 19:26:11 make it good, performant and not use too much batter Feb 20 19:26:28 wind-rider, the only decision makers in Meego are the two announced ones. Feb 20 19:26:33 on my system, someone left an animation running, so Plasma wakes up 60 times per second Feb 20 19:27:23 thiago_home: you mean the plasma developers should lobby for plasma? Feb 20 19:27:26 It's always the case that getting UI to work in small devices is really hard work. Feb 20 19:27:39 no, I mean that the plasma developers have to make a good app first Feb 20 19:27:40 then lobby Feb 20 19:27:51 thiago_home: ok, that's clear Feb 20 19:28:09 * timeless_mbp looks for Terje0 Feb 20 19:28:09 I doubt MeeGo would take Plasma if the devs there didn't want it Feb 20 19:28:41 thiago_home: i hope they do not come to late because Plasma Mobile is not finished yet Feb 20 19:28:48 timeless, let me know when you find him. Feb 20 19:28:59 Plasma Netbook is quite advanced though Feb 20 19:29:03 is plasma that new kde4 thing? Feb 20 19:29:11 thiago_home: with "too late" i mean that there is already another shell chosen Feb 20 19:29:11 Terje1: Well, the UI working in small devices is something that's already being worked on for Plasma, there's a plasma-desktop, plasma-netbook and a plasma-mobile, which are all looking quite nice :) Feb 20 19:29:11 yes Feb 20 19:29:12 Terje1: you need a more unique nick ;-) Feb 20 19:29:16 ShadowJK: Yup :) Feb 20 19:29:25 I tried it in kde4 once.. it ran too slow on Q9550 :) Feb 20 19:29:32 leinir: I thought Plasma Mobile was still in the works? Feb 20 19:29:58 ShadowJK: there was a problem with graphics card drivers some time ago Feb 20 19:29:59 timeless, nah, I've got a perfectly good first name. Feb 20 19:30:01 ShadowJK: i run kde on my 1.2GHz core2duo + intel x3100 graphics laptop Feb 20 19:30:08 wind-rider: It is, but it isn't just a pipe dream :) (just you wait until the end of Tokamak4 which is going on right now, it's nifty ;) ) Feb 20 19:30:15 * timeless_mbp considers begging to differ Feb 20 19:30:16 ShadowJK: and guess what, it's smooth as butter Feb 20 19:30:19 Sysinfo for 'gamma-orionis': Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop running KDE Development Platform 4.4.00 (KDE 4.4.0) "release 224", CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Duo CPU T7500 @ 2.20GHz at 2200 MHz (4388 bogomips), HD: 158/195GB, RAM: 3566/3951MB, 259 proc's, 38.8min up Feb 20 19:30:26 and plasma's as arachnist says smooth as butter :) Feb 20 19:30:34 (same gfx) Feb 20 19:31:02 leinir: I heard of Tokamak 4 indeed, but I have not seen much blogs or youtube postings about it yet Feb 20 19:31:10 arachnist, ah, I had huge problems with KDE in general back then. Like the fps in konsole was about a half, with one core at 100% :) Feb 20 19:31:15 wind-rider: that's because today's mostly presentations :) Feb 20 19:31:17 one half an fps Feb 20 19:31:32 leinir: yeah, but also over the last two months Feb 20 19:31:43 ShadowJK: ouch, nasty :) Feb 20 19:31:45 wind-rider, I don't know the situation, but the plasma developers might also want to take a look at what kind of dependencies they have. KDE libraries have a huge footprint. Feb 20 19:32:13 wind-rider: You can only post so many videos of moving widgets around with a stylus before it gets boring ;) Feb 20 19:33:02 leinir: I meant a video of the things it differed from the plasma-desktop variant for example :) Feb 20 19:33:23 oh right :) Feb 20 19:33:37 leinir: plasma-netbook has a different interface than plasma-desktop Feb 20 19:33:54 It does, and it's really swish :) Feb 20 19:34:08 i'd really like that on my touchbook ;) Feb 20 19:34:09 leinir: and i was expecting plasma-mobile to have something like that to Feb 20 19:34:16 to / too Feb 20 19:35:03 *nods* Yeah :) Well, they're working on it at T4 - some thirty people with a lot of breadth working all over, afair they've got some intel and nokians there too... but that's just afair, that may well be completely off ;) Feb 20 19:35:21 T4, btw? Feb 20 19:35:26 tokamak 4 Feb 20 19:35:36 Stskeeps: Tokamak4, the fourth Plasma developer sprint :) Feb 20 19:35:49 They're pretty hard core meetups, biggest sprints that KDE hosts :) Feb 20 19:36:11 ah Feb 20 19:36:38 leinir: it's a pity those meetings are always somewhere far away... Feb 20 19:37:04 wind-rider: it's a geographical impossibility to get them close to everyone Feb 20 19:37:15 such is the peril of distributed contributors Feb 20 19:37:17 w00t_: i know Feb 20 19:37:22 wind-rider: Seriously, you're in Holland... You're in a single flight away from most of them :) Feb 20 19:37:34 T4 is in Nürnberg :) Feb 20 19:38:09 ok, it looks far Feb 20 19:38:21 huh? Feb 20 19:38:26 If you've never been outside Holland, i'm sure it does ;) Feb 20 19:38:33 leinir: going to Nurnberg for one afternoon / evening? Feb 20 19:38:52 heh, it's not that bad here :-) Feb 20 19:38:55 wind-rider: s/afternoon/weekend ;) Feb 20 19:39:25 leinir: they have open day on monday afternoon / evening I read Feb 20 19:39:46 just don't eat the food Feb 20 19:39:47 They are there right now :) Feb 20 19:39:48 you might get sick Feb 20 19:39:53 * timeless_mbp suffered in Paris Feb 20 19:40:27 timeless_mbp: heh, what did you eat? Feb 20 19:40:35 cold milk Feb 20 19:40:37 leinir: I know they already started, it's just that i don't think i belong there for a whole weekend when i don't commit that often to kde Feb 20 19:40:50 (before) Feb 20 19:41:03 after i had coke(defizzed) and saltines(roughly) Feb 20 19:41:25 wind-rider: it sounds like you think that coding is what sprints are for... ;) Feb 20 19:41:51 * DocScrutinizer googles Tokamak4 Feb 20 19:42:06 leinir: yes, or at least for the people who do the most for kde Feb 20 19:42:48 leinir: the sprint i was at involved quite a bit of coding Feb 20 19:42:58 although there were also some discussions and planning Feb 20 19:43:00 wind-rider: Nope :) Code is the smallest product from dev sprints - they're mainly for planning and the sort of discussions that just don't work on IRC :) Feb 20 19:43:11 Sure, there's coding, but that's not really the main thing :) Feb 20 19:43:26 we also did some reviews and pushing Feb 20 19:43:41 Yeah :) Feb 20 19:43:45 leinir: i report bugs on a regular basis and did some feature improvement commits (for koffice and kjots), but it seems like very little compared to what the people who are there do now Feb 20 19:44:08 * timeless_mbp needs to try to finish an rsync someday Feb 20 19:44:16 leinir: so that makes me hesitate to go to such things Feb 20 19:44:35 You really shouldn't hesitate just because your commit count isn't so big :) Feb 20 19:44:45 There's more to a community member than commit counts ;) Feb 20 19:44:49 wind-rider: fwiw, the sprint i went to was for mercurial Feb 20 19:44:52 and i'm a minor guy there Feb 20 19:45:10 even given that i was only around for half the time, i think my presence was valued Feb 20 19:45:25 timeless_mbp: ok, that sounds nice :) Feb 20 19:45:30 hmm, they're hiding in Northtown of Nuernberg :-P Feb 20 19:45:56 looks like Suse/Novel location Feb 20 19:46:16 leinir, timeless_mbp: well, then maybe I'll come next time :) Feb 20 19:46:41 wind-rider: *nods* :) Feb 20 19:46:49 There's plenty of sprints to attend, really, choose your pick :) Feb 20 19:47:01 KOffice, for one, has an annual one that you might wanna attend :) Feb 20 19:48:05 leinir: KDE-PIM too, which was a few feeks ago Feb 20 19:48:18 *nods* Yup :) Feb 20 19:48:54 leinir: brb (~15 minutes) Feb 20 19:49:05 no probs, i'll go make a cuppa ;) Feb 20 20:02:36 mmm... tea :) Feb 20 20:10:24 leinir: i'm back :) Feb 20 20:11:01 Wooh! \o/ Feb 20 20:12:13 leinir: btw, your nick sounds familiar to me, are you a kde developer? Feb 20 20:12:54 i am part of the amarok dev squad, and one of the people behind gluon :) Feb 20 20:13:50 leinir: ok, great :) i love amarok Feb 20 20:14:09 leinir: i heard of gluon, but i don't use it (yet) Feb 20 20:14:22 it is a graphics framework, isn't it? Feb 20 20:14:53 It's a game creation and distribution system :) Feb 20 20:15:03 No worries, you'll hear a lot more about it in the next few months ;) Feb 20 20:17:28 * CosmoHill shalkes fist at ubuntu moblin Feb 20 20:17:58 leinir: i see, but I hope it will be actually used, instead of becoming "another framework" Feb 20 20:18:51 leinir: i don't say at all that you are doing useless work, but i had the idea that there are more frameworks around? Feb 20 20:18:55 Well, it's more than just a framework :) Feb 20 20:18:55 how do i reboot moblin Feb 20 20:19:03 * CosmoHill blushes for asking a stupid question Feb 20 20:19:08 There's plenty of game creation frameworks, but we're doing a lot more :) Feb 20 20:19:17 CosmoHill: sudo /sbin/reboot? ;) Feb 20 20:19:28 hehe Feb 20 20:19:35 I'm so use to command line Feb 20 20:19:39 GUI is weird to me Feb 20 20:19:56 CosmoHill: press power button to turn off, or reboot from command line, they are the only options Feb 20 20:20:17 oo Feb 20 20:20:18 no ctrl-alt-del? Feb 20 20:20:28 there is always ctrl+alt+del Feb 20 20:20:37 it's written into /etc/inittab Feb 20 20:20:53 but X windows can block it Feb 20 20:20:59 ah Feb 20 20:21:06 * MikeJB wonders if that ctrl+alt+del thing ever messes with someone who switched from Windows... :P Feb 20 20:22:06 i think it's caught me out a few times Feb 20 20:22:27 i think once i was using windows and linux, opened the task manager..oh crap, wrong keyboard Feb 20 20:24:18 my install seems to be very slow and laggy Feb 20 20:26:12 CosmoHill: you press the power button Feb 20 20:26:43 CosmoHill: Unfortunately, as a corollary to Moore's Law, apps get *more* bloated by about triple every two years, which outdoes the doubling of transistors. By 2030, we will barely be able to use anything on non-Alienware computers. Feb 20 20:27:13 By 2030 we will inject 'em with the syringe Feb 20 20:27:13 I'm running a proper laptop Feb 20 20:27:43 So although computers will get cheaper, we'll have to pay more and more to run things properly :P Feb 20 20:27:43 on your lap? Feb 20 20:27:52 or cheating and using it on a desk Feb 20 20:27:56 cheating Feb 20 20:28:01 i'm hot enough as it is Feb 20 20:28:14 The cost of a usable computer has stayed more or less the same over the years Feb 20 20:28:15 * MikeJB is using laptops as advertized. Linux really only uses the fan if you run Flash. Feb 20 20:28:19 do they heat up that much? Feb 20 20:28:25 i thought the new ones ran cooler Feb 20 20:28:32 You still have to spend at least $1200 for a usable laptop Feb 20 20:28:39 mine is a mid 2008 philips Feb 20 20:28:40 CosmoHill: HP? Just by running into fellow Pavillion-users, those things heat up a lot and require lots of fan useage. Feb 20 20:28:44 Oh, philips Feb 20 20:28:49 RST38h, usable as in laptop for gaming? Feb 20 20:28:53 lcuk: Well, things got weird with the temperature Feb 20 20:28:58 which i dont see the point of Feb 20 20:29:04 nah, usable macbooks start at less than $1200 :) Feb 20 20:29:04 i was backing up my powerbook the other day and it went upto 68'C Feb 20 20:29:16 lcuk: Current crop of laptops will slow down the CPU to stay inside the thermal envelope Feb 20 20:29:26 timeless, agreed, and thinkpads are reasonable too Feb 20 20:29:30 lcuk: Usable as in laptop for office, studio, etc Feb 20 20:29:34 RST38h, yeah - everything does Feb 20 20:29:40 our n900s are key there Feb 20 20:29:51 would you like my specs? Feb 20 20:30:04 lcuk: Well the problem is that it often slows down the cpu so much that it becomes no faster than a much older laptop Feb 20 20:30:06 how will you read things? Feb 20 20:30:06 there are macbooks <$1200? Feb 20 20:30:14 yeah rst Feb 20 20:30:19 I don't do any 3D gaming because my Intel integrated graphics card on my laptop from several years ago doesn't really handle 3D that well... but even I envy some gaming computers/laptops. I see them as "virtualization machines"... something only a nerd would even know the definition to. ;) Feb 20 20:30:25 i have my thinkpad locked to 600 or 800mhz Feb 20 20:30:32 my friend;s flatmate has killed THREE macbooks in a YEAR Feb 20 20:30:34 i question "usable" wrt thinkpad input methods Feb 20 20:30:35 lcuk: My poor R500 slows down to almost the netbook performance (bu lasts 6+ hours) Feb 20 20:30:54 MikeJB, the older cards surely handled 3d fine, it was when they moved over to pixel shaders etc Feb 20 20:30:56 impressive, how? Feb 20 20:31:03 ShadowJK: macbook is not a computer, it is an object of lust Feb 20 20:31:14 lol Feb 20 20:31:16 timeless, yeah im happy with kb and plugin mouse tho Feb 20 20:31:20 lcuk: I guess it might be able to handle 3D fine when the card came out, but it definitely doesn't handle today's 3D without lag or settings turned off. Feb 20 20:31:27 i know the macs give a better kb Feb 20 20:31:35 but this is certainly happily usabl Feb 20 20:31:39 I have a feeling a non-Intel might have stood up to time a little more. Feb 20 20:31:47 I mean, I love Intel cpus, but this graphics card just isn't good. Feb 20 20:31:48 lcuk: Apple BT keyboard still does not work with Maemo5 though ( Feb 20 20:31:58 MikeJB, 3d to me involves polygons and textures Feb 20 20:31:59 I couldn't imagine myself using a non-Intel cpu on a desktop or laptop Feb 20 20:32:01 but thats not enough now Feb 20 20:32:09 MikeJB: my powerbook used a G4 1.67Ghz :) Feb 20 20:32:12 RST38h, where is the fail there Feb 20 20:32:16 i suppose i should try it Feb 20 20:32:26 (Yes, I know there's Intel people here, I don't intend to insult them. I wish I had an i7 in my laptop right about now.) Feb 20 20:32:34 used little power but gets as hot as hell Feb 20 20:32:36 lcuk: updated Bluez no longer handshakes with it Feb 20 20:32:45 curious Feb 20 20:32:46 macbooks start @999 Feb 20 20:32:47 lcuk: god knows why Feb 20 20:32:52 mbp's @1199 Feb 20 20:32:58 don't forget student discounts Feb 20 20:33:02 which is less than 1200 :) Feb 20 20:33:03 RST38h, anyone put any documentation online Feb 20 20:33:04 lcuk: if you can somehow fix it, would be nice =) Feb 20 20:33:12 well i have the hardware Feb 20 20:33:15 lcuk: what for? Feb 20 20:33:18 * CosmoHill blinks Feb 20 20:33:19 CosmoHill: student discounts are $100 tops unless you're talking very high end. At the top they double that to about $200. Feb 20 20:33:21 ill fire it up when i have some time Feb 20 20:33:23 did MS just buy yahoo? Feb 20 20:33:26 errr not documentation Feb 20 20:33:27 So Macs *still* outprice competition. Feb 20 20:33:32 observations/tests etc Feb 20 20:33:33 CosmoHill: No, they bought the search division. Kind of. Feb 20 20:33:37 i wouldnt know what im looking for Feb 20 20:33:38 Yahoo now defines itself as a portal. Feb 20 20:33:47 so if someone else had something setup i would run over it Feb 20 20:33:47 Which is what it originally was waaaaaaaay back. Feb 20 20:33:55 and report back and see what we do and dont have Feb 20 20:34:06 Today you buy a Mac, tomorrow you start reading GQ. Feb 20 20:34:19 mikejb: a friend got me a discount on a mac a few years back Feb 20 20:34:23 CosmoHill: Basically, Yahoo uses Bing for search. Try to understand it past that and your head will exploe. Feb 20 20:34:27 Monday you buy a turtleneck sweater and jeans Feb 20 20:34:29 it basically got me a free cinema display Feb 20 20:34:40 lcuk: BLACK sweater Feb 20 20:35:02 whatever color lol Feb 20 20:35:10 timeless: Well, I looked into student discounts for my sister who wants a Macbook, and both my university and hers don't discount a laptop more than $100 unless you want the top-end model. Feb 20 20:35:22 In fact, they use the exact same discount, making me thing it's standard to $100 Feb 20 20:36:12 Honestly, desktops are dead. I'd prefer a really bulky 17'' laptop with a large external monitor to use with dual-montior work at home rather than a desktop. Feb 20 20:36:43 I'm using two laptops, and amp and a sky / sat box Feb 20 20:36:51 why is my bedroom so hot >.< Feb 20 20:37:06 15:32:25 < CosmoHill> used little power but gets as hot as hell Feb 20 20:37:09 That's why. Feb 20 20:37:32 aparantly my ubuntumoblin laptop doesn't have a battery Feb 20 20:37:32 There's a reason why server rooms need cooling. :P Feb 20 20:37:40 the light says it's fully charged Feb 20 20:37:49 oh yes and my server, forgot about that Feb 20 20:38:18 ubuntu moblin remix should probably be called Mublin Feb 20 20:38:39 i think mublin doesnt like my laptop Feb 20 20:38:41 better than tabuntu xD Feb 20 20:38:46 ubeego Feb 20 20:39:54 ueegoo (pronounced "weego") Feb 20 20:40:01 maebuntu Feb 20 20:40:23 MeeGo, YouGo? WeeGo! (yay!) Feb 20 20:40:37 why did I put "goo?" Feb 20 20:40:44 I think I'll accidentally call this meegoo :P Feb 20 20:40:50 I'd rather have a Tegra2/OMAP4 tablet device with a Pixel Qi screen 'n an HDMI output ;) Feb 20 20:40:53 cps it's squishy Feb 20 20:41:18 So are there any meego devices announced yet? Feb 20 20:41:25 do we know anything about the number of employed maintaers for the base packages? Feb 20 20:41:36 MikeJB: i don't think there is even a meego yet Feb 20 20:41:39 maintainers Feb 20 20:41:45 There's that one device from LG announced, but with a custom GUI there's almost no point Feb 20 20:42:00 LH pop? Feb 20 20:42:03 LG* Feb 20 20:42:11 I hate custom GUIs to various open OSes. Feb 20 20:42:21 That are almost always proprietary to one vendor. Feb 20 20:42:32 MikeJB: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/16/lg-gw990-to-be-among-first-meego-phones/ Feb 20 20:43:17 it would be nice to have one GUI so you could go from nokia to LG to sony and always know your way about Feb 20 20:43:46 CosmoHill: yeah, but they hate that. "differentiaion" they call it. Feb 20 20:44:13 it would be nice but you they want to be different Feb 20 20:44:25 yup Feb 20 20:44:40 mukiex: Engadget! I tried to follow that site on RSS, but they release about 20 articles a day. It's almost impossible to keep up with it. It's like every single phone, tablet, computer, etc., ever announced is on that site. Feb 20 20:44:47 then again i was looking at the LG pop and thinking "iphone copy cat" Feb 20 20:44:56 http://www.lge.com/uk/mobile-phones/all-lg-phones/LG-touch-screen-phones-GD510.jsp Feb 20 20:44:57 MikeJB: they are a gadget site, after all... Feb 20 20:45:25 MikeJB: Yeah, it's the only Netvibes window with 40 entries I have ^_^ Feb 20 20:46:12 Yeah, I had to delete the RSS feed and just remember to check the site from time to time. It's annoying when I can "clear" the others from my reader, but not keep up with Endgadget. Feb 20 20:46:16 *Engadget Feb 20 20:46:50 * MikeJB wonders the smallest device size could be for an i7-running tablet or netbook. Feb 20 20:47:57 MikeJB: well, the smallest is whatever is necessary to contain the heatsink Feb 20 20:48:19 MikeJB: why do you need a power-guzzling desktop cpu in there? Feb 20 20:49:35 imagine a N900, with a UPS and a 6" heatsink stuck to it. it would be that size Feb 20 20:49:45 * CosmoHill sighs Feb 20 20:49:50 MisterN: To run power-guzzling desktop apps on a really tiny screen? :P Feb 20 20:49:52 mubin seems laggy :( Feb 20 20:50:05 MikeJB: most apps are not really cpu-hungry Feb 20 20:50:09 CosmoHill: you probably don't have the "right" graphics Feb 20 20:50:28 mutter is using 85% processor Feb 20 20:50:39 what is "mutter"? Feb 20 20:50:42 as it will if you don't have the right graphics Feb 20 20:50:44 i have no idea Feb 20 20:50:44 It probably also requires an i7 to run Vista without lag. ;) Feb 20 20:51:34 you basically need intel cpu and intel graphics to run moblin Feb 20 20:51:35 MikeJB: it should run meego, not vista. Feb 20 20:51:44 ali1234: it's ubuntu moblin remix Feb 20 20:51:46 ali1234: but not to run meego, i hope! Feb 20 20:52:17 CosmoHill: well, god knows what canonical have done it it Feb 20 20:52:26 i like your answer Feb 20 20:53:17 Ubuntu is *not* very upstream-friendly when compared to Debian or Fedora. Feb 20 20:53:45 I'm surprised they keep the double-panel of GNOME on their standard desktop release. Feb 20 20:54:06 i'd hardly call debian "upstream friendly" Feb 20 20:54:29 ffs damn this Feb 20 20:54:35 i can't turn my wireless on Feb 20 20:54:44 * CosmoHill stabs it Feb 20 20:54:49 now it turns on Feb 20 20:54:56 CosmoHill: proper driver? Feb 20 20:55:33 yeah it's an intel 5200 wireless n card Feb 20 20:57:46 haha Feb 20 20:57:55 i can pick up my friend's wifi from here Feb 20 20:58:05 he live down the street Feb 20 20:59:09 CosmoHill, you can pick it up, but do you routinely use it? Feb 20 20:59:18 nope Feb 20 20:59:21 never used it Feb 20 20:59:35 it's listed as one of the networks within range Feb 20 21:05:43 * CosmoHill noms an apple turnover Feb 20 21:19:19 i think ubuntu screwed up the langages too Feb 20 21:19:35 you end up ????? instead of letters Feb 20 21:22:40 * CosmoHill downloads the nvidia driver Feb 20 21:28:15 * CosmoHill shakes his fist at CSI Feb 20 21:28:27 jaguars do not sounds like that Feb 20 21:29:02 * lcuk makes a fist shaking gui in visual basic to track the errors in csi for CosmoHill Feb 20 21:29:39 i need to logout of moblin to login as command line only Feb 20 21:31:42 ah ha, take that x11 Feb 20 21:38:02 CosmoHill: huh? ctrl-alt-f1 gives you a console Feb 20 21:39:07 it crashed :( Feb 20 21:39:15 also why didn't i think of that >.< Feb 20 21:44:20 pressing ctrl+alt+F# crashes the computer Feb 20 21:59:20 wtf Feb 20 21:59:33 I've just started gnome inside ubuntu moblin Feb 20 22:00:15 According to this(http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support), sort of MeeGo project already exists in OBS. So I am wondering if it is OpenSuse's OBS or Linux Fundation's OBS, which I don't have access. Feb 20 22:00:28 probably neither Feb 20 22:01:21 they are still setting up the public infra afaik Feb 20 22:02:00 OK. I will wait for the new build farm ... Feb 20 22:02:34 dammit, if i leave it to long it boots windows Feb 20 22:04:56 how to i tell linux to boot into text only mode / don't start x11 Feb 20 22:05:17 try booting to single user Feb 20 22:05:29 3 Feb 20 22:11:27 Crap! Just realized (again) that Moblin2 requires SSE3 CPU. I knew there was a reason I hadn't tried it before. Feb 20 22:11:43 dammit Feb 20 22:11:46 There's no version without that requirement I guess? Feb 20 22:12:02 autoguy: I'm trying ubuntu moblin remix Feb 20 22:12:17 Yeah I have run that before on my eee 900 Feb 20 22:12:31 it's a bitch to install nvidia on Feb 20 22:12:31 I remembered now I had tried to get moblin on it once before Feb 20 22:12:54 It has a Celeron M unfortunately, no SSE3 so I guess that's why it doesn't run Feb 20 22:13:51 CosmoHill: Yeah, well no such advanced graphics in my netbook :) Feb 20 22:14:22 I couldn't help you there. I run normal ubuntu on my laptop with nvidia chips Feb 20 22:14:30 and there it was easy Feb 20 22:14:57 i need to install nvidia, to to that i need command line Feb 20 22:15:21 Bummer, but maybe you'll learn something in the process Feb 20 22:15:34 *cough* ubuntu Feb 20 22:15:34 ? Feb 20 22:15:50 is off topic ;) Feb 20 22:16:00 moblin is closer Feb 20 22:16:11 i hope meego supports nvidia Feb 20 22:16:23 i guess that depends on nouveau :) Feb 20 22:16:41 if you'd like to know how to crash ubuntu moblin i seem to be coming an expert Feb 20 22:16:45 I hope meego supports PowerVR and the like. Who cares about netbooks Feb 20 22:17:54 Portables is where it's at. On lap&netbooks I'm fine with normal distros or Ubuntu NBR to be honest Feb 20 22:18:40 i'm just trying it out Feb 20 22:18:46 i have a full laptop Feb 20 22:18:55 with a cd drive and everything Feb 20 22:19:30 Lucky you :) Feb 20 22:19:38 yeah :) Feb 20 22:20:01 friend gave it to me when he got a new one Feb 20 22:21:31 brb Feb 20 22:23:17 "Access Denied. You are not authorized to access this page." http://meego.com/user/register Feb 20 22:23:49 i think someone reported it, otherwise send to meego-community@ Feb 20 22:32:50 oh my god this is so awesome now that i have graphics drivers Feb 20 22:34:17 hmm Feb 20 22:34:19 werid Feb 20 22:35:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpOlcm-X9cc Feb 20 22:36:52 battery, sound and network display fine Feb 20 22:37:22 internet, pasteboard and the rest are blank Feb 20 22:38:31 also people shows networks :/ Feb 20 22:39:37 CosmoHill: Nvidia driver now done? Feb 20 22:39:43 yes Feb 20 22:39:50 what did you have to do? Feb 20 22:39:59 i only needed to install things you'd never need on a netbook Feb 20 22:40:09 ? Feb 20 22:40:15 installed binutils, ssh and build-essential Feb 20 22:40:24 and then? Feb 20 22:40:25 had to login to the netbook via ssh Feb 20 22:40:33 init 1 Feb 20 22:40:35 init 4 Feb 20 22:40:40 ern Feb 20 22:40:43 Are you saying you had no graphics at all before? Feb 20 22:40:46 init 1 and init3 Feb 20 22:40:56 i had vesa or something Feb 20 22:41:17 ok, I didn't understand why ssh needed Feb 20 22:41:18 sudo sh NVIDIA.....run Feb 20 22:41:31 cos you need to kill x11 to install the drivers Feb 20 22:41:41 you end up with the background image and nothing else Feb 20 22:41:49 no console then? Feb 20 22:41:53 nope Feb 20 22:41:56 xterm used x11 Feb 20 22:42:14 yes I meant a non-X console. anyway, good that you got it going Feb 20 22:42:16 ctrl + alt + F# freezes the computer Feb 20 22:42:21 nope Feb 20 22:42:27 gnome, mobin and xterm Feb 20 22:42:46 Now you can run fun stuff like compiz Feb 20 22:43:07 the interface is a lot faster and smoother Feb 20 22:43:19 however, a lot of things aren't working any more Feb 20 22:43:25 :( Feb 20 22:43:36 gonna try gnome Feb 20 22:44:05 isn't that the default? or are you running kubuntu Feb 20 22:44:15 ubuntu moblin remix Feb 20 22:44:22 Oh yeah you said so Feb 20 22:44:30 I'm getting tired in the little head Feb 20 22:48:53 http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg Feb 20 22:50:04 everyone likes a clean slate Feb 20 22:50:04 :P Feb 20 22:50:15 hehe Feb 20 22:50:20 it should display a load of stuff Feb 20 22:50:35 the internet has the top and bottom bit, the middle is missin Feb 20 22:51:41 so i can have a slow laggy interface that works Feb 20 22:51:48 or a fast smooth one that has most of it missing Feb 20 22:52:37 it would be very useful at night, walking to the bathroom it could light you way Feb 20 22:57:46 oo oo oo Feb 20 22:57:49 i have file manager Feb 20 23:00:29 the top bar is broken, the applications themselfs seems to work Feb 20 23:01:02 CosmoHill, are you running a trunk build? Feb 20 23:01:16 i'll find a link Feb 20 23:01:27 http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/ Feb 20 23:01:28 those can be a bit rough... Feb 20 23:01:36 oh, well... Feb 20 23:01:58 should be a release version then :) Feb 20 23:03:16 CosmoHill: that's probably quite out of date Feb 20 23:04:55 the top bar is broke, rest seems to work Feb 20 23:04:59 ffs >.< Feb 20 23:06:18 The ubuntu remix runs without the SSE3 perhaps?!? Feb 20 23:06:34 no idea Feb 20 23:06:49 Here's me trying... Feb 20 23:07:05 my laptop specs: intel c2d p7350 2.0Ghz, Nvidia 9300m, 2 x 2GB DDR2 Feb 20 23:07:40 Yes well core2duo surely has the sse3 I think. Let me check wikipedia Feb 20 23:09:00 P7350 is Penryn family, they all have sse3 and more Feb 20 23:09:10 but not VT :( Feb 20 23:09:13 it's only my old crappy celeron m machine that doesn't Feb 20 23:09:35 Oh you're right, the p7350 seems to be an exception for VT Feb 20 23:11:14 anyone know the name of the progam at the top Feb 20 23:11:18 with the icons and time on Feb 20 23:11:31 The awesome bar? :) Feb 20 23:11:41 No I don't know it Feb 20 23:12:06 zones work Feb 20 23:19:59 gotcha Feb 20 23:20:04 moblin-pannel-* Feb 20 23:21:48 ubuntu moblin remix doesn't have the moblin boot menu does it? Feb 20 23:21:55 I mean the install media Feb 20 23:22:12 how do you mean? Feb 20 23:22:20 It has an "ubuntu" boot menu Feb 20 23:22:37 when you instead the disk and you have the "boot without installing" etc? Feb 20 23:22:37 I think I failed in writing it to the usb stick I just had moblin on before Feb 20 23:23:02 cause the boot menu looks the same with choices like "install moblin linux" Feb 20 23:23:19 it looks like ubuntu but with "moblin remix" added to text Feb 20 23:23:31 yeah, I need to redo this Feb 20 23:23:53 i think i do too Feb 20 23:26:01 that's better. it was too quick last time, only about 30seconds. Feb 20 23:26:26 no usb stick writes 600 megs in that time Feb 20 23:26:40 http://xkcd.com/533/ Feb 20 23:26:47 not what i was looking for but it will do Feb 20 23:27:41 ubuntu remix is not moblin really though Feb 20 23:27:59 at least, don't use it as an indication of what moblin is like, or meego Feb 20 23:28:10 it's going to be formatted Feb 20 23:28:14 no that's probably true. Feb 20 23:29:00 arjan: I only have my eee available and I can't run moblin so I was inspired to try the remix mostly for fun. Feb 20 23:29:15 inspired by CosmoHill that is Feb 20 23:29:18 don't let me stop you ;) Feb 20 23:29:29 * CosmoHill screams Feb 20 23:29:45 ***CosmoHill should relax a bit Feb 20 23:31:05 how ever pissed off computers can make me, it's nothing compared to my best friends Feb 20 23:31:21 *sigh Feb 20 23:32:03 * CosmoHill has given up and will now chill Feb 20 23:32:11 CosmoHill: Yikes, hope that was a joke Feb 20 23:32:20 on a side note i kinda exploded on anorter channel Feb 20 23:32:30 the me screaming? yeah Feb 20 23:32:56 the comment about your friends pissing you off even more than computers Feb 20 23:33:22 computers piss me off and stuff Feb 20 23:33:37 but only my best friends can tell me something that will make me going into a fit of rage Feb 20 23:33:48 it's all in managing expectations my friend Feb 20 23:34:19 you know you choose your own feelings right? I know that's not what one wants to hear when one is pissed off though. Feb 20 23:34:34 i'm fine now Feb 20 23:34:39 good! Feb 20 23:36:20 CosmoHill: also.. learning to count a little to calm down, or taking a short walk... works for me ;) Feb 20 23:38:20 * CosmoHill looks at the log demons and shakes fist Feb 20 23:39:49 My USB boot media didn't boot. Third try with another stick... Feb 20 23:40:13 autoguy: ubunutu moblinx remix Feb 20 23:40:21 ? Feb 20 23:40:30 yes Feb 20 23:40:39 yeah i tried that, it needs to be a CD Feb 20 23:40:53 No CD on the netbook :( Feb 20 23:41:09 unless I drag out my... oh I don't even want to think about it Feb 20 23:41:13 that does seem to be a problem with a netbook version Feb 20 23:41:28 i have no working CD drive in my powerbook :( Feb 20 23:41:29 weird Feb 20 23:41:37 moblin itself can be both a cd and a usb stick Feb 20 23:41:38 same image Feb 20 23:41:48 wonder why ubuntu isn't like that Feb 20 23:42:11 yeah moblin was easy to just write to the stick, it just didn't run all the way... Feb 20 23:42:33 i.e. writing and booting ok, didn't boot all the way Feb 20 23:44:13 would meego support nvidia? Feb 20 23:44:13 autoguy, which eee is that? Feb 20 23:44:18 I have a IDE to USB interface and an old DVD drive somewhere but I really don't want to go and fetch it but maybe I have to. Feb 20 23:44:39 jku: It's a pretty old one, 900, the first gen I think Feb 20 23:45:14 It's not supposed to work, no SSE3 support Feb 20 23:45:50 right, Celeron Feb 20 23:45:56 yes Feb 20 23:46:50 what is the sse3 support required for? Feb 20 23:46:53 CosmoHill: nouveau is not quite mature Feb 20 23:46:58 lcuk: for floating point stuff Feb 20 23:47:04 why such an exclusionary dependency on x86 code? Feb 20 23:47:05 lcuk: we use ssse3 instead of x87 Feb 20 23:47:14 since it's a lot faster than x87 Feb 20 23:47:23 yeah, what for Feb 20 23:47:24 (think "arm neon") Feb 20 23:47:36 i know that it can make things faster Feb 20 23:47:39 but what kinds of things Feb 20 23:47:42 floating poinmt Feb 20 23:47:45 and is it such a bad thing that its not there Feb 20 23:47:49 yes arjan Feb 20 23:47:51 anywhere where in C you write "double" Feb 20 23:47:56 ive had floating point since 486 or whatever Feb 20 23:48:00 which is for all kinds of graphical stuff etc Feb 20 23:48:07 but what specific benefit requires sse Feb 20 23:48:07 yeah and that all is x87 Feb 20 23:48:15 x87 is rather slow Feb 20 23:48:21 ie, why cant you just accept any normal laptop Feb 20 23:48:25 sse is much faster (much easier programming model for the compiler) Feb 20 23:48:31 lcuk: any normal laptop has ssse3 Feb 20 23:48:37 core2 has it, and anything after that Feb 20 23:49:11 ok, if it were emulated (supposing such a thing could happen) which part of the system would i notice it was unrealonably bad Feb 20 23:49:21 lots of graphical stuff Feb 20 23:49:26 both qt and clutter use it all over Feb 20 23:49:47 i seem to always have intel Feb 20 23:50:19 rightm so graphics in clutter needs uber double precision math Feb 20 23:50:29 it's not about uber double precision Feb 20 23:50:32 yet clutter on the arm afaik doesnt have much neon opts Feb 20 23:50:33 and works Feb 20 23:50:34 it's about more than integers Feb 20 23:50:45 clutter on arm uses floating point too Feb 20 23:50:57 i didnt say that Feb 20 23:51:12 i said it doesnt have much in the way of neon opts (at least that i know) Feb 20 23:51:27 only what the compiler uses Feb 20 23:51:39 im just wondering why you need to set the barrier to enforce sse Feb 20 23:51:42 ok Feb 20 23:51:46 on x86, the compiler automatically uses sse for floating point if you tell it you have a cpu that has sse Feb 20 23:51:56 so i will be able to recompile meego for other arches Feb 20 23:51:57 -mtune=native Feb 20 23:51:58 without sse Feb 20 23:52:11 it'll take a while Feb 20 23:52:14 but yeah you can Feb 20 23:52:19 you can moblin as well Feb 20 23:52:39 has anyone tried it? Feb 20 23:52:44 and published results Feb 20 23:52:49 ie moblin on amd Feb 20 23:52:50 for instance Feb 20 23:52:58 * CosmoHill daydreams of a working cluster with distcc Feb 20 23:53:20 btw it isn't sse3 that is missing from amd but ssse3 (note extra s) Feb 20 23:53:42 i'm not really sure what the difference is Feb 20 23:53:56 i am just wondering what the barrier of entry is, since compiling for x86 suddenly became something very specific Feb 20 23:54:07 newer amd has ssse3 too Feb 20 23:54:15 how much newer? Feb 20 23:54:17 lcuk: all distros draw a line somewhere Feb 20 23:54:20 pehnom 2 doesn't Feb 20 23:54:24 *phenom Feb 20 23:54:28 fedora is drawing it at pentium II now for example Feb 20 23:54:30 arjan, but i cant use p3/p4 can i? Feb 20 23:54:37 or anything not recent Feb 20 23:54:38 debian might draw it at 486 Feb 20 23:54:45 it's core2 or later Feb 20 23:54:47 so 2006 Feb 20 23:54:51 that's 4 years. Feb 20 23:55:12 i dnuno how old my x41 is Feb 20 23:55:35 cat /proc/cpuinfo Feb 20 23:55:37 ubunutu 9.04 uses i486 iirc Feb 20 23:55:50 glibc dropped i386 support Feb 20 23:56:05 will tell you all extensions your cpu supports Feb 20 23:56:19 Pentium M 1.4/1.5 Feb 20 23:56:25 mine only has sse, sse2 and sse4a Feb 20 23:56:27 which i run happily at 600mhz Feb 20 23:56:41 no ssse3 for you then Feb 20 23:56:50 (would run slower, but for the minimum cpu frequency in ubuntu Feb 20 23:56:53 right Feb 20 23:56:58 so i cant try moblin on i Feb 20 23:56:59 t Feb 20 23:57:10 maybe ubuntu moblin remix :) Feb 20 23:57:13 if I'm right, you're talking about the optimations used at compile time? Feb 20 23:57:19 ali1234: normally if you have sse4a you have ssse3 too Feb 20 23:57:23 CosmoHill: yup Feb 20 23:57:27 whats the ubuntu remix? Feb 20 23:57:31 shite Feb 20 23:57:35 er i mean Feb 20 23:57:35 is that a faster version of moblin? Feb 20 23:57:37 <.< Feb 20 23:57:38 >.> Feb 20 23:57:42 lcuk: no Feb 20 23:57:46 nope Feb 20 23:57:49 lcuk: it's ubuntu with a few moblin UI packages on top Feb 20 23:57:49 lcuk: it's canonical's version of moblin Feb 20 23:57:54 it's ubuntu with the mobin GUI Feb 20 23:57:55 does it run the moblin ui ontop of ubuntu? Feb 20 23:57:55 iirc Feb 20 23:57:57 right Feb 20 23:58:00 with debs? Feb 20 23:58:04 or mixed Feb 20 23:58:06 debs Feb 20 23:58:07 debs Feb 20 23:58:16 yay, i learnt something Feb 20 23:58:18 all rebuilt and repackaged Feb 20 23:58:24 so moblin apps are compatible with it Feb 20 23:58:27 it's not moblin as such, it's ony a few UI apps Feb 20 23:58:28 (if repackaged) Feb 20 23:58:32 should be Feb 20 23:58:35 lcuk: nice theory, in practice not so ;( Feb 20 23:58:35 arjan: so you reckon i have ssse3? then i must have some virtualbox problem Feb 20 23:58:37 api compatible Feb 20 23:58:50 ali1234: sse4a is NHM... NHM has SSSE3 for sure Feb 20 23:58:50 what is moblin then if not a few ui apps? Feb 20 23:58:55 i will try booting for real tomorrow Feb 20 23:58:56 lcuk: it's a whole OS Feb 20 23:59:09 guys, let me get this right, moblin requires sse3, if you don't have that you could recompile moblin for say a P3 Feb 20 23:59:10 lcuk: the UI is only a part of the experience/what moblin is Feb 20 23:59:10 does the ubuntu one look/feel the same? Feb 20 23:59:20 because it has same ui Feb 20 23:59:22 lcuk: look yes, feel.. mostly Feb 20 23:59:37 moblin would support any x86 processor you compiled it from Feb 20 23:59:42 is there anything specifically it wouldnt be able to do? Feb 21 00:00:12 lcuk: it's just a little different Feb 21 00:00:31 in what way though, if it runs the same things? Feb 21 00:00:39 and is api compatible Feb 21 00:00:51 it does not have the whole same middleware Feb 21 00:00:55 only the same UI libs Feb 21 00:01:05 there's more to app compatibility than the high level ui stuff Feb 21 00:01:30 arjan, yes, i am aware of that Feb 21 00:01:37 arjan: if i recompiled moblin myself, i could get it to run on any x86 processor (>=i486) i wanted to, right? Feb 21 00:01:43 CosmoHill: yeah Feb 21 00:01:49 lcuk: there you go :) Feb 21 00:01:53 CosmoHill: just you might not get the same performance if you had a newer processor Feb 21 00:02:02 would it be feasible for intel themselves to construct a build for other intel machines Feb 21 00:02:06 so i could test it Feb 21 00:02:08 since compiling for an older cpu means you don't use features/instructions of the newer cpus Feb 21 00:02:14 thats ok Feb 21 00:02:17 i dont need those Feb 21 00:02:24 but i have intel workable laptops here Feb 21 00:02:41 that you say are incompatible with current things, but for a recompile Feb 21 00:03:11 so, could you investigate whether we can have moblin/meego on our laptops Feb 21 00:03:19 from a community request point of view Feb 21 00:03:24 Just incompatible with what is offered as a binary Feb 21 00:03:30 lcuk: moblin is compiled with sse3 and therefore won't run on anything without it Feb 21 00:03:37 ...is the conclusion of all this right? Feb 21 00:03:38 ssse3 Feb 21 00:03:53 lcuk: define laptops... anything 2006 and later ought to be fine Feb 21 00:03:55 like if i compiled for an i686 i couldn't run it on a i586 or i486 Feb 21 00:04:05 arjan, ibm lenovo x41 Feb 21 00:04:07 CosmoHill: actually you can, it is more complicated than that Feb 21 00:04:11 pentium m Feb 21 00:04:17 millions(billions) were sold Feb 21 00:04:26 I know we sold many of those in 2004/2005 ;) Feb 21 00:04:30 not that model laptop, but the chip Feb 21 00:04:43 CosmoHill: gcc has two options: -mtune and -march: the first tunes for a specific processor while keeping compatibility with others, the second one drops compatibility on older processors Feb 21 00:04:43 i had one of those for the longest time myself actually Feb 21 00:04:46 those are in circulation in geeks bedrooms everywhere Feb 21 00:04:56 CosmoHill: at least i think it is that way round, been a while since i used it Feb 21 00:05:00 ah i didn't know what Feb 21 00:05:01 not targeting moblin which would work on it Feb 21 00:05:04 without a good reason Feb 21 00:05:06 is silly Feb 21 00:05:33 it would allow people to have a moblin install Feb 21 00:05:34 lcuk: as long as you keep ignoring "performance" as a good reason yeah there is no reason Feb 21 00:05:36 to help Feb 21 00:05:38 CosmoHill: also you don't need everything to be using the same options: as long as your cpu supports it, it will run, even if the rest of the userland and kernel was compiled with different options Feb 21 00:06:05 * CosmoHill wonders why he's not been taught this before Feb 21 00:06:16 I didn't know gcc was able to generate sensible sse* code these days, that's a huge improvement :) Feb 21 00:06:22 arjan, Feb 21 00:06:27 we run nokia tablets Feb 21 00:06:29 ShadowJK: at least for normal floating piont stuff it can Feb 21 00:06:30 CosmoHill: so for example, what debian does, is compile everything for lowest common denominator, then offer optimized binaries for processor intensive packages Feb 21 00:06:30 in 600mhz MAX Feb 21 00:06:41 the old tablets had 400mhz Feb 21 00:06:46 CosmoHill: cos you never asked? Feb 21 00:06:51 lcuk: no matter what speed your cpu is, do you really want to leave 20% or so on the table? Feb 21 00:06:55 performance comes best when you have an uphill struggle Feb 21 00:06:57 answer for moblin has been "not" Feb 21 00:07:15 throwing hardware at a problem does nothing Feb 21 00:07:20 we have clutter ui on n900 Feb 21 00:07:36 much less horsepower than your new swanky chips Feb 21 00:07:49 MPlayer gained a good 40% boost when compiled for armv7+neon compared to armv6 :) Feb 21 00:08:13 i agree. design for half the power you have, then it wont die the first time someone tries to run two programs at the same time Feb 21 00:08:27 now, imagine if people optimized moblin to run well on low power/speed chips Feb 21 00:08:46 it also means that when new chips come out or its run on faster the experience is better Feb 21 00:09:07 and with the numbers of chips that intel has sold Feb 21 00:09:14 for every step backwards you go Feb 21 00:09:21 and also, 20% more performance also means lower power Feb 21 00:09:23 Those ibm/lenovo laptops are an aberration, laptops aren't supposed to live longer than a year :D Feb 21 00:09:34 lcuk: yes, but tuning for sse3 (or whatever chip) is the right thing to do Feb 21 00:09:34 since those are the same (run longer for the same work -> cost more power) Feb 21 00:09:45 only you could offer alternative binaries for other architectures Feb 21 00:09:54 autoguy, im not saying its not. you should use every weapon in your arsenal Feb 21 00:09:58 is maemo compiled for armv6 or v7 ? Feb 21 00:10:08 it is optimized for the arm it runs on Feb 21 00:10:23 arjan, basically compiled for the device it comes with Feb 21 00:10:49 (and not sanely installable elsewhere) Feb 21 00:11:02 right, i tried it once - didn't work well Feb 21 00:11:12 "illegal instruction" errors everywhere Feb 21 00:11:43 ShadowJK, actually Feb 21 00:11:44 Good discussion and good of you to challenge this lcuk. I draw the conclusion that setting up binary builds for other, and older, architectures is doable and just hasn't been done by the intel-backed project (yet). Of course intel should be in the business of selling new hardware... as is Nokia... Feb 21 00:11:54 binaries build on my n810 work on my n900 Feb 21 00:12:02 lcuk, yes that works Feb 21 00:12:05 autoguy: the cost of another set of builds is not miniscule Feb 21 00:12:18 autoguy :) Feb 21 00:12:18 * CosmoHill backreads Feb 21 00:12:24 think "10 to 20 servers", including hosting and power etc Feb 21 00:12:50 arjan, if intel themselves do not have the silicon on hand to build servers Feb 21 00:12:50 arjan: no I can imagine. We're just challenging the situation, and getting good answers I think Feb 21 00:12:53 i dont know who does Feb 21 00:13:16 i'm sure someone will build it Feb 21 00:13:17 armv7 has most of the armv6 stuff too :D Feb 21 00:13:27 dont tell me that a build machine cannot exist Feb 21 00:13:32 Well, gentoo freaks build their entire distro all the time ;-) Feb 21 00:13:34 obs is setup to allow this sort of stuff Feb 21 00:13:37 it can exist. Feb 21 00:13:46 infact Feb 21 00:13:48 lcuk is not letting up. LOL... Feb 21 00:13:51 all you need to provide is about 10 to 20 servers, including power and connectivity Feb 21 00:13:56 mer builds on obs for multi arch Feb 21 00:14:09 autoguy: so i could compile a program that would use ss{,s}3 optimisation if the processor supported it, but if it didn't it would still work? Feb 21 00:14:10 and since this needs to be outside our building, it needs to be some data center Feb 21 00:14:13 It took 2-3 days or something for that lunatic jebba to compile all of debian for N900.. Feb 21 00:14:26 and debian is huge Feb 21 00:14:26 CosmoHill: no you can't do that, not really at least Feb 21 00:14:32 the same servers run multiple builds Feb 21 00:14:36 CosmoHill: No I didn't mean that Feb 21 00:14:36 but he had a "good relationship" with his provider I believe :) Feb 21 00:14:41 You need to provide different builds Feb 21 00:14:42 dammit Feb 21 00:14:44 its just a ticky box on obs or something Feb 21 00:14:48 CosmoHill: it just means that you don't use the instructions at all Feb 21 00:14:53 "(*) Old Intel chips" Feb 21 00:14:54 lcuk: you still need the build capacity Feb 21 00:15:19 you can't build twice the amount, and think it'll take the same amount of time on the same amount of machines Feb 21 00:15:41 arjan, mer builds for multi arch now, i know damned well that maemo does the same, most big open source operations do Feb 21 00:15:47 arjan: there's nothing to stop someone doing a one off port of moblin 2.1 for 486+ though, right? Feb 21 00:15:54 ali1234: absolutely nothing Feb 21 00:16:11 what would i need for build system? Feb 21 00:16:16 ali1234: just everyone who complains loudly wants us to do the work and spend the money Feb 21 00:16:28 (software wise) Feb 21 00:16:37 ali1234: I would suggest something beefy; but otherwise obs or mock or .. or .. all will work Feb 21 00:16:40 arjan, i want to run your intel operating system on my intel powered lapttop Feb 21 00:16:42 lcuk, from what I've seen in #mer, they need careful planning to not cause week of delay if a qt recompile comes up :) Feb 21 00:16:45 i want to help Feb 21 00:17:15 arjan: considering that i have never built a rpm from source before.. where do i start? Feb 21 00:17:22 arjan: did you compile moblin on fast awesome machines Feb 21 00:17:24 ali1234: google for "mock" Feb 21 00:17:32 like your 48 core beast? Feb 21 00:17:36 CosmoHill: we have like 20 to 30 nehalem servers Feb 21 00:17:43 * CosmoHill drools Feb 21 00:17:43 in our build farm Feb 21 00:17:54 most of them use intel ssd's for storage Feb 21 00:18:36 well they wouldn't use OCZ would they :p Feb 21 00:19:06 the maemo build farm consists of a pair of n800s Feb 21 00:19:16 lol Feb 21 00:19:20 :D Feb 21 00:19:21 haha Feb 21 00:19:22 no I think that's luke-jr's buildfarm.. Feb 21 00:19:34 * lcuk is jesting, theres some incredible power somewhere Feb 21 00:19:41 lcuk: of course Feb 21 00:19:54 I'd shoot someone who thought you where being serious Feb 21 00:20:05 maybe you guys can help m,e Feb 21 00:20:17 what looks shiney on a cluster that you could show 14~18 year olds Feb 21 00:22:01 Yay! Ubuntu moblin remix now booted on my Celeron M. So there! Feb 21 00:22:09 what graphics card? Feb 21 00:22:50 Hang on I have to google that. It's Intel chips iirc Feb 21 00:22:50 Those Celeron M things and Centrino were sold in insane quantities.. the first affordable laptops after an era of P-4M with huge batteries :-) Feb 21 00:23:08 autoguy: wikipedia is goos Feb 21 00:23:10 good Feb 21 00:23:32 Intel GMA 900 it seems Feb 21 00:23:45 yeah I had a Pentium M for like 3 years Feb 21 00:23:56 the backlight led went out 3 years and one week after I got it Feb 21 00:23:58 I have two laptops Feb 21 00:24:04 (and yes I had exactly 3 years of warranty) Feb 21 00:24:13 that sucks Feb 21 00:24:22 i had my laptop fixed Feb 21 00:24:52 I got my warrated extended a bit cos they fitted some faulty parts a few days before it expired Feb 21 00:25:26 CosmoHill: So it works off usb stick after all Feb 21 00:25:39 cools Feb 21 00:26:14 time to vanish anyway :) Feb 21 00:26:32 cyas Feb 21 00:26:34 gnite arjan CosmoHill autoguy :) nice convo Feb 21 00:26:49 arjan: warranty was well designed :) Feb 21 00:26:49 agree. sleep tight Feb 21 00:26:49 :) Feb 21 00:28:39 ooo, dodgeball Feb 21 00:32:50 my first laptop was a 2005 powerbook :) Feb 21 00:34:00 on it now actually Feb 21 00:34:16 The 2005s were not built to last. Feb 21 00:34:59 i know :( Feb 21 00:35:17 good thing we bought the extended warranty Feb 21 00:35:35 * GeneralAntilles just got Apple to replace his 2004 G5 with a Mac Pro Feb 21 00:35:38 No warranty, woo! Feb 21 00:35:44 ... Feb 21 00:35:45 how the hell Feb 21 00:35:55 Liquid cooling leaked Feb 21 00:36:00 They agreed to do a no-cost repair Feb 21 00:36:04 and you can get apple to do that? Feb 21 00:36:05 The repair failed Feb 21 00:36:14 So I got a new Mac Pro. :P Feb 21 00:36:18 good deal Feb 21 00:36:25 * CosmoHill bows Feb 21 00:36:46 my friend's powermac did the same Feb 21 00:37:14 That took about 6 months all told and about a dozen calls to top-tier customer support. Feb 21 00:40:38 i should have gotten apple to replace my powerbook Feb 21 00:41:49 GeneralAntilles: you the original owner of the powermac? Feb 21 00:44:26 3 logic boards, 2 screens and 1 hard drive Feb 21 00:44:55 each counts as a major fault, 3 major faults and you're entitled to a replacement Feb 21 00:45:32 i wonder if i could get meego working on my powerbook Feb 21 00:47:33 * CosmoHill wonders who did the meego website Feb 21 00:48:57 Hi all! I opened an italian site entirely dedicated to Meego ... www.meegoIT.com :D It arises from a rib of maemoIT.org :D Feb 21 00:49:06 CosmoHill: it's listed on the who's who page, can't remember off hand Feb 21 00:49:27 thanks ali1234 Feb 21 00:49:39 that might just be the maintainer though, dunno Feb 21 00:53:02 CosmoHill: I hope at this piont it's a mix of maemo and moblin folks Feb 21 00:53:44 cos it's a pretty site and i might steal some design ideas for my assignment Feb 21 00:53:46 monoceros: i don't speak italian but it look nice Feb 21 00:54:05 monoceros: cool Feb 21 00:55:35 koupsa, CosmoHill thanks :D Feb 21 00:56:59 looks like the website might have been made by two meamo and two moblin developers Feb 21 00:58:58 A total mess then? Feb 21 00:59:05 :D Feb 21 00:59:08 heh Feb 21 00:59:25 actually no Feb 21 00:59:48 it has multiple "devlopers" Feb 21 00:59:50 only one designer Feb 21 01:00:12 setresuid(0, 0, 0) <- that's trying to become root right? why is mock doing that? Feb 21 01:00:51 funnily enough it failed Feb 21 01:01:15 the instructions say not to even run it as my normal user... isn't that kind of redundant if it wants root access anyway? Feb 21 01:03:09 suid allows a normal user to run a program as root? Feb 21 01:03:33 if that's what you want, try "chmod +s" Feb 21 01:03:46 heh, i just installed mock and tried to use it Feb 21 01:04:04 it fails with EPERM because it wants to become root Feb 21 01:12:04 it does chroot somewhere Feb 21 01:12:11 which needs root Feb 21 01:14:42 true Feb 21 01:15:21 i can;t get it to work.. if i run it as root, it makes the chroot and then drops root and subsequently can't write to the directory it just made Feb 21 01:15:39 if i don't run it as root, it fails to get root access Feb 21 01:16:26 CosmoHill, yeah. Feb 21 01:16:35 CosmoHill, only took them 4 months to ship it to me originally, too. . . . Feb 21 01:16:53 2 weeks after i got mine the DDR2 version came out Feb 21 01:17:04 and the upgrades i paid extra for became standard Feb 21 01:17:15 lol Feb 21 01:17:28 CosmoHill, that's why you always check MacRumor's buying guide before a purchase. ;) Feb 21 01:17:39 first and only mac I've bought Feb 21 01:17:41 There's things are pretty predictably cyclical. ;) Feb 21 01:17:43 Ah Feb 21 01:18:28 I've been given 3 powermacs tho :D Feb 21 01:18:53 i do love the way apple go "up yours" to standards Feb 21 01:20:05 My G5 was a beast in its day Feb 21 01:20:13 This Nehalem rig just completely blows it out of the water, though. Feb 21 01:20:15 Kinda sad Feb 21 01:20:19 technically it still is a beast Feb 21 01:21:26 I got a G4 400Mhz sawtooth, G4 733Mhz Quicksilver and a G4 2 x 1.25Ghz MMD Feb 21 01:22:31 all for free Feb 21 01:22:42 first one was good but psu seems to have gone Feb 21 01:22:56 2nd one was given with a failed psu Feb 21 01:23:04 3rd one blow up when i plugged it in Feb 21 01:24:58 looks like i am going to have to build a fedora chroot just to to run mock Feb 21 01:25:20 ironic considering building fedora chroots is it's entire purpose Feb 21 01:29:37 CosmoHill, still got my 867MHz Quicksilver Feb 21 01:29:48 CosmoHill, and a 1.8GHz G5 that I was given somewhere along the line. Feb 21 01:29:48 i still have them Feb 21 01:29:51 i'm a horder Feb 21 01:30:03 Hehe Feb 21 01:30:05 I wired up ATX to apple PSU adapters for them Feb 21 01:30:19 so my quicksilver works with a normal ATX PSU Feb 21 01:30:43 only issue is the cooling fan and power connector, so I've removed the plastic from the back Feb 21 01:31:54 my MDD mobo failed :( Feb 21 01:34:40 What a stupid redesign the MDD was Feb 21 01:35:03 * CosmoHill stabs netgear Feb 21 01:38:04 i turn it on, seconds later the cooling fans go on full speed Feb 21 01:38:13 the end :( Feb 21 01:40:41 it would have been the best computer i owned, and great for cross-lfs Feb 21 02:08:57 well I'm off to bed Feb 21 02:09:20 cyas **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Feb 21 02:59:57 2010