**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 21 02:59:57 2010
Feb 21 08:57:47 <th0br0> good morning
Feb 21 09:04:53 <th0br0> nice blogpost Stskeeps :) *thumbs up*
Feb 21 09:06:28 <Stskeeps> which one of them?
Feb 21 09:07:09 <th0br0> the one about meego and maemo 6 and the n900
Feb 21 09:07:13 <Stskeeps> ah, yes
Feb 21 09:07:41 <th0br0> oh that was a talk post, duh :S
Feb 21 09:08:06 <arachnist> Stskeeps: where's your blog? (url)
Feb 21 09:08:11 <Stskeeps> mer-project.blogspot.com
Feb 21 09:08:20 <Stskeeps> th0br0: it was already hinted at in my blog :)
Feb 21 09:08:30 <th0br0> :)
Feb 21 09:18:44 <th0br0> it's so quiet in here nowadays :(
Feb 21 09:18:53 <th0br0> but then, that's the weekend i guess
Feb 21 09:19:16 <Stskeeps> yeah, or people need to rest after a hectic week
Feb 21 09:19:21 <th0br0> true :)
Feb 21 10:28:22 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Feb 21 10:30:19 <Stskeeps> morn jaffa
Feb 21 10:43:09 <dl9pf_> morning !
Feb 21 10:58:40 <ScriptRipper> moin
Feb 21 10:58:46 <ScriptRipper> dl9pf_
Feb 21 10:59:42 <dl9pf_> hi ScriptRipper!
Feb 21 11:36:28 <CosmoHill> i may have accidently told some of my friends about this channel
Feb 21 11:37:21 <Stskeeps> as long as they'll contribute..
Feb 21 11:37:21 <Stskeeps> :P
Feb 21 11:38:31 <CosmoHill> does adding to the swear jar count?
Feb 21 11:38:49 <Stskeeps> if it does not in any way contain the words "rpm" or "deb"..
Feb 21 11:38:49 <Stskeeps> :P
Feb 21 11:40:04 <CosmoHill> "windows"?
Feb 21 11:40:26 <CosmoHill> I do get some fanboys who bitch about windows and erm, slag it off
Feb 21 11:40:34 <CosmoHill> i duno how to reword that last bit
Feb 21 11:41:26 <CosmoHill> two more brits
Feb 21 11:42:41 <CosmoHill> one less...
Feb 21 11:45:46 <th0br0>  :P CosmoHill oh it will be funny to see them. after all, they'll be utterly defeated ;)
Feb 21 11:46:13 * Stskeeps is spending some time reading up on .rpm
Feb 21 11:46:21 <Stskeeps> so far i don't see any functionality difference in dpkg and rpm
Feb 21 11:46:22 <Stskeeps> :P
Feb 21 11:46:32 <Stskeeps> even some things that are easier with rpm
Feb 21 11:46:38 <Stskeeps> i can imagine building tools around it with ease
Feb 21 11:46:39 <CosmoHill> I did a race between dpkg and rpm
Feb 21 11:46:57 <th0br0> Stskeeps: there isn't much afaik. at least no *big* difference to the average packager
Feb 21 11:47:11 <Stskeeps> th0br0: well, reading "max rpm" book atm
Feb 21 11:47:46 <th0br0> have fun :) i guess i should do sth similar if i want to help with the repository wg ...
Feb 21 11:48:07 <Stskeeps> and i can already see features that are immensely useful for building tools with
Feb 21 11:48:13 <Stskeeps> rpm -qa --queryformat for instance
Feb 21 11:48:24 <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: I'VE BUILD RPMS
Feb 21 11:48:30 <CosmoHill> and accidently pressed caps lock
Feb 21 11:48:39 <th0br0> and misspelled built? ;)
Feb 21 11:48:43 <CosmoHill> that too
Feb 21 11:48:48 <Stskeeps> i don't know a shred of .spec, so it's time to learn
Feb 21 11:48:49 <CosmoHill> I'm going for the high score
Feb 21 11:48:58 <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: I'll help you
Feb 21 11:49:02 <muep> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BuildingPackagesGuide - I learned with this, and I still thinnk it is a quite nice walkthrough of the basic stuff
Feb 21 11:49:03 <th0br0> yeah Stskeeps :) it is easy though. feel free to ask
Feb 21 11:49:19 <Stskeeps> muep: thanks
Feb 21 11:49:23 <th0br0> muep: indeed, it's pretty useful.
Feb 21 11:49:24 <CosmoHill> http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/ << all the one's i've written
Feb 21 11:49:31 <leinir> there's a really nice learning curve on .spec authoring, yeah :)
Feb 21 11:49:39 <Stskeeps> i'm thinking of a 'reading guide for future meego contributors' blog post so
Feb 21 11:50:00 <th0br0> haha, they wouldn't pass fedora's "harsh" packaging guidelines CosmoHill
Feb 21 11:50:10 <CosmoHill> probably not
Feb 21 11:50:11 <CosmoHill> http://download.bluesquarelinux.co.uk/felix/SPECS/template.spec
Feb 21 11:50:32 <th0br0> but ... i think that it would be good for meego to adapt at least *some* of the fedora packaging guidelines ... especially stuff like "no duplication of (system) libraries" should be important
Feb 21 11:50:50 <CosmoHill> mwhahahah
Feb 21 11:50:52 <thiago_home> huh? Why would anyone duplicate libraries?
Feb 21 11:51:15 <CosmoHill> why would 20 people suddenly leave the channel?
Feb 21 11:51:24 <thiago_home> they wouldn't
Feb 21 11:51:27 <Stskeeps> netsplit
Feb 21 11:51:27 <th0br0> thiago_home: there are quite a number of ... applications out there that got some (most times even non-changed) forks of some version of this library in their release packages against which they build.
Feb 21 11:51:30 <th0br0> CosmoHill: netsplit
Feb 21 11:52:15 <damien_l> let's say that someone wants Qt with rtti and another one with rtti
Feb 21 11:52:42 <thiago_home> if Qt is deployed with all features enabled, there's no reason to duplicate
Feb 21 11:53:01 <thiago_home> if however, the system version is arbitrarily crippled (like the PDF rendering engine being disabled), then I can understand
Feb 21 11:53:07 <damien_l> thiago_home: even ABI incompatible build flag?
Feb 21 11:53:17 <muep> but some software still includes (usually a bit smaller than Qt) libraries within their source trees
Feb 21 11:53:20 <damien_l> IIRC rtti enabled/disabled changes the mangling
Feb 21 11:53:26 <damien_l> or at least, it used to
Feb 21 11:53:26 <thiago_home> damien_l: no, it doesn't
Feb 21 11:53:35 <muep> and sometimes the included library copies are modified
Feb 21 11:53:38 <th0br0> thiago_home: that's true.
Feb 21 11:53:47 <thiago_home> the only thing that changes ABI is turning features off.
Feb 21 11:53:50 <thiago_home> and that's actually API
Feb 21 11:54:49 <thiago_home> well, in Qt, that is
Feb 21 11:54:55 <CosmoHill> welcome back people of the night
Feb 21 11:54:58 <thiago_home> in other projects, it could happen, I see
Feb 21 11:55:46 <thiago_home> anyway, not duplicating libraries helps in security upgrades
Feb 21 11:55:51 <thiago_home> for example, zlib
Feb 21 11:56:05 <th0br0> besides, given that our free space is rather limited, this should be a must imho
Feb 21 11:56:15 <thiago_home> yup
Feb 21 11:56:16 <CosmoHill> when i said I made RPMS i never meantioned the quaility
Feb 21 11:56:23 <th0br0> yeah thiago_home, that's part of fedora's idea behind that, too
Feb 21 11:56:43 <th0br0> CosmoHill: no offense meant there, just some comparison ;)
Feb 21 11:58:55 * CosmoHill blinks
Feb 21 11:59:15 <CosmoHill> this episode is weird
Feb 21 11:59:20 <CosmoHill> I'm wondering what I've missed
Feb 21 11:59:32 <th0br0> what are you watching?
Feb 21 11:59:34 <CosmoHill> Skins
Feb 21 11:59:50 <th0br0> teen drama, duh
Feb 21 12:00:05 <th0br0> however, The controversial plotline explores issues including narcissism, dysfunctional families, personality disorders, substance abuse, sexuality, teenage pregnancy, disability, suicide and death.... sounds interesting
Feb 21 12:00:06 <th0br0> ;)
Feb 21 12:00:22 <CosmoHill> dinner table sense, 10~12 year old boy wearing address and wants to "f##k" his older sister's girlfriend
Feb 21 12:02:09 <th0br0> ^^
Feb 21 12:02:18 <CosmoHill> you from the uk?
Feb 21 12:02:57 <th0br0> germany
Feb 21 12:06:09 <th0br0> Stskeeps: at what time is that meeting on wednesday again?
Feb 21 12:10:17 <Stskeeps> the community one or which one?
Feb 21 12:11:26 <timeless_mbp> CosmoHill: 'a dress', not 'address'
Feb 21 12:12:13 <CosmoHill>  realised that
Feb 21 12:13:53 <Stskeeps> th0br0: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=20&month=2&year=2010&p2=101&p3=224&p4=43&iv=0
Feb 21 12:14:01 <th0br0> thanks Stskeeps :)
Feb 21 12:14:10 <Stskeeps> i will probably just be looking from the sideline as i'll go to polish classes at that hour :P
Feb 21 12:17:05 <th0br0> oh :)
Feb 21 12:17:17 <th0br0> where're you from?
Feb 21 12:17:40 <Stskeeps> denmark, living in poland
Feb 21 12:17:51 <th0br0> ah ok.
Feb 21 12:18:00 <Stskeeps> tax's good here for contracting work ;)
Feb 21 12:18:13 * RST38h moos approvingly
Feb 21 12:18:23 <Stskeeps> and cost of food is 1/4th of danish :P
Feb 21 12:24:58 <CosmoHill> there's just been a crash in the winter olimpics
Feb 21 12:25:02 <CosmoHill> that is very scary
Feb 21 12:25:40 <Stskeeps> countdown till it is on youtube..
Feb 21 12:29:49 <CosmoHill> it looks scary as hell
Feb 21 12:31:24 <CosmoHill> technically they crossed the finish line
Feb 21 12:31:34 <Stskeeps> [citation needed, bw]
Feb 21 12:31:35 <Stskeeps> btw
Feb 21 12:33:17 <CosmoHill> corner 13 too
Feb 21 12:33:42 <frals> who crashed?
Feb 21 12:33:53 <CosmoHill> canada
Feb 21 12:36:46 <CosmoHill> lol, speed skating refs
Feb 21 12:36:51 <CosmoHill> ice skates + suit = lol
Feb 21 12:37:37 <th0br0> huh? gotta find some yt vid of that
Feb 21 12:38:02 * leinir much preffers the suits the rubbers wear... :)
Feb 21 12:38:56 <CosmoHill> i duno if what i am watching is live or not
Feb 21 12:39:04 <th0br0> were you talking about the luge crash?
Feb 21 12:39:06 <CosmoHill> it says highlights so i don't think so
Feb 21 12:39:10 <CosmoHill> th0br0: yes
Feb 21 12:39:15 <th0br0> ah no that was 6 days ago
Feb 21 12:39:16 <CosmoHill> no
Feb 21 12:39:16 <th0br0> he died.
Feb 21 12:39:22 <CosmoHill> 2 man bobslide
Feb 21 12:39:25 <th0br0> huh, ok.
Feb 21 12:39:39 <CosmoHill> rip that guy
Feb 21 12:53:45 <villemv> moblin doesn't support nvidia, joy
Feb 21 12:53:55 <villemv> or ati
Feb 21 12:54:07 <CosmoHill> i know :(
Feb 21 12:55:44 <CosmoHill> i tried the ubuntu moblin remix, managed to install the nvidia driversw and the UI broke
Feb 21 12:56:47 <damien_l> which NVidia drivers, the proprietary ?
Feb 21 12:57:01 <CosmoHill> yep
Feb 21 12:57:11 <CosmoHill> the moblin panel seems to be broken
Feb 21 12:57:14 <CosmoHill> hold on
Feb 21 12:57:27 <CosmoHill> http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg
Feb 21 12:57:56 <damien_l> indeed, does look broken
Feb 21 12:58:18 <CosmoHill> if you put in a memory stick the file manager will pop out
Feb 21 12:58:21 <CosmoHill> up*
Feb 21 12:58:27 <CosmoHill> and you can open videos
Feb 21 12:58:43 <CosmoHill> but it's like taking away the start button from windows
Feb 21 13:00:28 <CosmoHill> also it's a nightmare to install the drivers
Feb 21 13:37:15 <Stskeeps> okay, .spec actually looks easy and sane
Feb 21 13:37:43 <CosmoHill> :)
Feb 21 13:38:15 <CosmoHill> i personally steal fedora's src.rpm files when i need help
Feb 21 13:39:08 <th0br0> :) CosmoHill
Feb 21 13:39:16 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: use for a version of mud?
Feb 21 13:39:21 <th0br0> Stskeeps: yay! now we should start calling you rpmmaster ;P
Feb 21 13:39:29 <Stskeeps> th0br0: i'm not debmaster, thank god :P
Feb 21 13:39:40 <Jaffa> ...to easily speccify upstream tarballs etc
Feb 21 13:39:41 <th0br0> x-fade was, right?
Feb 21 13:39:45 <Stskeeps> nop, jeremiah
Feb 21 13:39:54 <Stskeeps> x-fade is debmaster and head of the team
Feb 21 13:39:55 <Stskeeps> err..
Feb 21 13:39:56 <Stskeeps> web
Feb 21 13:39:58 <Stskeeps> webmaster :P
Feb 21 13:40:03 <CosmoHill> i can read a spec file and understand it
Feb 21 13:40:05 <th0br0> duh, too many names ... not ... able ... to ... fit ... into ... brain ;)
Feb 21 13:40:09 <th0br0> yeah CosmoHill
Feb 21 13:40:21 <CosmoHill> made a basic distro with them
Feb 21 13:52:45 <Stskeeps> on a sidenote, 'alien' is kinda cool
Feb 21 13:53:04 <Stskeeps> i took a moblin/meego package and it fixes my dependancies automatically to match debian ones
Feb 21 13:54:08 <GeneralAntilles> th0br0, just print out the wiki page. ;)
Feb 21 13:54:19 <th0br0> ;) GeneralAntilles
Feb 21 13:54:42 <Stskeeps> i wonder if it will shut up the discussion if i try to take entire moblin, convert into debian packages :P
Feb 21 13:54:54 <th0br0> don't do it!
Feb 21 13:55:00 <th0br0> besides, there already is ubuntu-moblin
Feb 21 13:55:05 <th0br0> which should have the packages already
Feb 21 13:55:17 * CosmoHill shakes fist at ubuntu-moblin
Feb 21 14:02:10 <CosmoHill> stats.bluesquarelinux.co.uk
Feb 21 14:02:13 <CosmoHill> :)
Feb 21 14:02:41 * CosmoHill watches Prince Mononoke
Feb 21 14:13:06 <th0br0> CosmoHill: Princess!
Feb 21 14:13:26 <CosmoHill> aww, thank you
Feb 21 14:13:34 <CosmoHill> :p
Feb 21 14:34:02 <Stskeeps> zchydem: did you btw notice if uiemo/orbit 'needs' GL(ES)?
Feb 21 14:37:14 <Terje1> Stskeeps, what do you mean by "means"? It should paint via QPainter, right?
Feb 21 14:37:47 <Stskeeps> you mean needs - I saw that DUI requires at least GLES support, but i'm unsure if orbit does
Feb 21 14:40:40 <Terje1> Stskeeps, I was told that Orbit have Qt as the only dependency. Haven't verified, though.
Feb 21 14:40:42 <damien_l> DUI does not paint via QPainter but with direct GL call AFAIK
Feb 21 14:41:09 <Stskeeps> Terje1: okay - that was what i was trying to find out :)
Feb 21 14:43:36 <Terje1> Stskeeps, this http://developer.symbian.org/wiki/images/c/c0/SF230409_Technical_Solution_Description_Orbit.pdf also verifies that they use QPainter. Implicitly (through performance) it requires require at least OpenvG.
Feb 21 14:43:47 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Feb 21 14:45:18 <Stskeeps> openvg could be interesting as we just gained that on n8x0 :)
Feb 21 14:45:42 <Terje1> Stskeeps, start coding then.
Feb 21 14:46:06 <Terje1> Stskeeps, some new driver for N8x0?
Feb 21 14:46:21 <Stskeeps> Terje1: yes, TI finally released the MBX driver (GLES1.1 and OpenVG) for OMAP2
Feb 21 14:46:29 <Stskeeps> it doesn't render nicely but to a buffer it should be fine
Feb 21 14:53:31 <CosmoHill> TI = texus instruments?
Feb 21 14:55:44 <lcuk> yes
Feb 21 14:55:53 <damien_l> well Texas
Feb 21 16:03:29 <vlj> hi
Feb 21 16:04:13 <vlj> i have a question : will Meego run on desktop pc with nvidia card ? And on a netbook with a poulsbo chipset ?
Feb 21 16:04:49 <vlj> (with intel cpu)
Feb 21 16:05:01 <th0br0> it aims at x86 and arm. we have got no further information afaik
Feb 21 16:05:09 <vlj> ok
Feb 21 16:05:18 <th0br0> in the end, as it uses x.org, it should run with that nvidia card
Feb 21 16:05:42 <vlj> yup but moblin didn't, although it used xorg...
Feb 21 16:06:00 <th0br0> :) idk. you'll have to see how things turn out.
Feb 21 16:06:30 <vlj> i'm trying to build a meego image with instruction provided on madeo's page
Feb 21 16:06:37 <vlj> but the process seems long
Feb 21 16:06:53 <th0br0> you can't really do that yet i think...
Feb 21 16:07:00 <th0br0> what "madeo's page" are you referring to, the wiki page?
Feb 21 16:07:07 <vlj> www.madeo.co.uk
Feb 21 16:07:25 <th0br0> that's moblin right now though
Feb 21 16:07:36 <jon1012> and on an n900, will it run ? :)
Feb 21 16:08:13 <vlj> so there is a "unofficial" moblin 2.2 build ?
Feb 21 16:08:47 <Stskeeps> th0br0: does rpm and whatever apt replacement support 'pinning'? (prefer a version from a repo even if another repo has another later ver)
Feb 21 16:09:03 <vlj> what do you call pinning ?
Feb 21 16:10:01 <vlj> ho
Feb 21 16:10:12 <th0br0> you can explicitly exclude packages but no pinning as such according to http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-1034.html
Feb 21 16:10:18 <th0br0> bt that might have changed
Feb 21 16:10:21 <vlj> i know that zypper has this capabilities, and it is rpm based
Feb 21 16:10:34 <vlj> but i dont know if it's yum case
Feb 21 16:11:07 <[Rui]> Will it work on devices that don't have a proprietarily accelerated graphics card?
Feb 21 16:11:31 * [Rui] . o O ( and crawling isn't on my dictionary for "work" ) :)
Feb 21 16:12:00 <th0br0> Stskeeps: rather ask the yum author
Feb 21 16:12:16 <Stskeeps> k
Feb 21 16:12:24 <th0br0> http://yum.baseurl.org/
Feb 21 16:13:15 <CosmoHill> i think meego should run on nvidia because of the ION platform
Feb 21 16:14:30 <vlj> CosmoHill but moblin didnt work on nvidia, even with ION platform
Feb 21 16:14:36 <vlj> that's why i'm asking
Feb 21 16:14:54 <bfree> meego will run on the N900 ... it just might have no fast video drivers, no phone and terrible battery life (i.e. the non-free issues from maemo)
Feb 21 16:14:55 <CosmoHill> meego is more than just mobin
Feb 21 16:15:01 <vlj> the xorg server did launch, but the clutter interface was "blank"
Feb 21 16:15:02 <[Rui]> CosmoHill: nvidia now has free drivers?
Feb 21 16:15:19 <CosmoHill> probably not
Feb 21 16:16:02 <vlj> it seems there is a conflict between nvidia binarie driver and clutter-glx
Feb 21 16:16:22 <vlj> at least on moblin, the gnome shell work perfectly on classic distro
Feb 21 16:16:28 <Stskeeps> bfree: i am not worried. ofono runs on mer, battery management is possible through asking nicely.. video drivers maybe
Feb 21 16:17:02 <pinchartl> hi
Feb 21 16:17:17 <bfree> as for ION, when Nvidia release good free drivers it should be supported by Meego, until then "someone" will have to convince NVidia to release suitable drivers :-p   allegedly nouveau has improved rapidly recently (so 2.6.33+ with the next xorg _might_ work well enough for meego with some chips)
Feb 21 16:17:39 <vlj> bfree there is no hope that nvidia release free driver
Feb 21 16:17:56 <vlj> it's their policy
Feb 21 16:18:13 <muep> but nouveau seems quite promising nowadays
Feb 21 16:18:28 <muep> even though nvidia refuses to help them
Feb 21 16:18:38 <vlj> it's still 5x slower that official binaries
Feb 21 16:19:00 <vlj> and it doesnt support cuda/vdpau/opencl...
Feb 21 16:19:01 <muep> yes, but some hw opengl acceleration is a lot better than no hw opengl acceleration
Feb 21 16:19:02 <bfree> vlj: I wouldn't say never ever, but it looks decade(s) away at best at the moment ;-)   odds are meego won't exist by the time NVidia release Free drivers :-p
Feb 21 16:20:00 <vlj> i agree ;)
Feb 21 16:20:13 <muep> clutter and compositing stuff should work just fine with even a bit simplistic driver
Feb 21 16:20:19 <[Rui]> vlj: it's been already more than a decade without any nvidia support, I've given up waiting for them years ago and generally boycott nvidia
Feb 21 16:20:29 <bfree> Stskeeps: ofono + N900 + 2.6.32 (or 33) can make calls?
Feb 21 16:20:59 <Stskeeps> bfree: User:jebba on wiki.maemo.org has some interesting results
Feb 21 16:21:00 * muep too avoids nvidia solutions
Feb 21 16:21:36 <vlj> i don't think it worths to boycott nvidia solutions because of lack of free driver
Feb 21 16:21:45 <vlj> i prefer good binary driver as very crappy free one
Feb 21 16:21:47 <vlj> ...
Feb 21 16:21:53 <vlj> I bought a netbook with poulsbo
Feb 21 16:22:10 <vlj> and there is almost no driver from intel for this chips
Feb 21 16:22:51 <muep> I did not ditch windows just to get stuck with another proprietary software vendor
Feb 21 16:23:20 <muep> and there are a lot better alternatives than poulsbo for nvidia GPUs
Feb 21 16:23:27 <vlj> yes i know
Feb 21 16:23:50 <vlj> but this is really ashaming that intel forget support for one of its gpu
Feb 21 16:24:26 <muep> AMD/Ati has both free driver support and a higher performance proprietary driver
Feb 21 16:24:32 <vlj> on the first hand, they do a lot for kernel programming, they add feature
Feb 21 16:24:52 <muep> I currently prefer them, even though the Catalyst driver is quite horrible in some ways
Feb 21 16:24:55 <vlj> on the other hand they sell hardware with a driver working with only one revision of the kernel
Feb 21 16:25:15 <[Rui]> vlj: I try to boycott PowerVR cards too :)
Feb 21 16:25:27 <[Rui]> vlj: playing nice has provenly not worked with nvidia
Feb 21 16:25:40 <muep> vlj:  Catalyst does not support Linux, they support a few specific distros :-(
Feb 21 16:25:52 <[Rui]> vlj: intel's poulsbo isn't intel's, it's owerVR's :=
Feb 21 16:26:03 <vlj> yep but it's intel branded
Feb 21 16:26:29 <vlj> i mean, i don't care if it's intel or powervr fault
Feb 21 16:26:35 <vlj> i just want working driver on linux
Feb 21 16:26:51 <[Rui]> vlj: I guess you'll just have to wait for your grand kids :)
Feb 21 16:27:08 <vlj> and i think that intel should put some pressure on powervr
Feb 21 16:27:25 <vlj> or release they "gallium 3D special driver" they advertised some times ago
Feb 21 16:27:53 <arachnist> muep: catalyst drivers work for me on gentoo. i doubt that's one of the blessed distros
Feb 21 16:28:33 <muep> arachnist: of course they happen to work on many other distros
Feb 21 16:29:24 <muep> arachnist: but for example, there is still no working Catalyst release for Fedora 12, which AFAIR was released in November 2009
Feb 21 16:30:25 <vlj> video driver are really very capricious piece of software
Feb 21 16:31:03 <muep> usually a working driver for Fedora seems to get released roughly when the next Ubuntu is released
Feb 21 16:31:32 <vlj> by the way how will meego work on phone ? they all have powervr gpu
Feb 21 16:31:51 <bfree> if you use non-free drivers you are stuck depending on the non-free provider for choosing the software (kernel and userspace) you can use with it
Feb 21 16:31:52 <muep> which is about four to five months after the Fedora release, and only a couple of months before the next one, which will then end up unsupported for months
Feb 21 16:32:50 <muep> fortunately, starting from F12, we have free opengl drivers for most ATI hardware, excluding only the latest generation
Feb 21 16:33:26 <[Rui]> muep: I had to fight a lot, generally disably kms, in order to get this laptop's ati card working
Feb 21 16:33:37 <muep> I had to install Fedora :-)
Feb 21 16:33:43 <muep> Radeon HD3650
Feb 21 16:33:53 <[Rui]> muep: Fedora 12 was a PITA here while last 3 Ubuntu's had working 3D with the free drivers.
Feb 21 16:34:14 <bfree> vlj: so that means you are depending on powervr or nokia or someone to release a non-free driver for Meego for the powervr to use it on those "phones" ... or you stick with any primitive Free drivers that support the powervr (so how will meego "work" on non accelerated hardware and could you live with it)
Feb 21 16:34:39 <muep> it is still quite new code, but the Catalyst issues are gradually getting less relevant
Feb 21 16:34:58 <vlj> i think that there is no way to have meego on non accelerated hardware
Feb 21 16:35:15 <vlj> moblin doesnt play well with unaccelerated hardware
Feb 21 16:35:24 <muep> at least Ubuntu 9.10 still uses a lot older graphics driver code, without KMS or DRI2, for example
Feb 21 16:35:50 <[Rui]> vlj: I'm hoping http://www.aavamobile.com/ is more open than what the site would lead one to think.
Feb 21 16:36:11 <[Rui]> vlj: it's definitly not as open as the Ben Nanonote, but then it does a lot more too :)
Feb 21 16:36:29 <[Rui]> vlj: aava seems a lot of talk without walk.
Feb 21 16:40:48 * CosmoHill stabs netgear
Feb 21 16:43:14 * netgear stabs CosmoHill 
Feb 21 16:45:24 * CosmoHill blinks
Feb 21 16:51:04 <CosmoHill> i swear ubunutu moblin will crash at the drop of a hat]
Feb 21 16:51:28 <lcuk> CosmoHill, dont drop your hat then
Feb 21 17:06:51 <CosmoHill> http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=87
Feb 21 17:06:56 <CosmoHill> i might give this ago
Feb 21 17:08:14 <CosmoHill> oh and it seems that mutter is part of clutter
Feb 21 17:10:21 <damien_l> mutter is a WM that uses Xcomposite and Clutter
Feb 21 17:49:55 * CosmoHill growls
Feb 21 17:50:05 <CosmoHill> select username, enter password, watch X restart
Feb 21 18:32:37 <CosmoHill> could someone give me the moblin boot configuration?
Feb 21 18:55:07 <CosmoHill> got it
Feb 21 18:55:16 <CosmoHill> need to use gfxpayload=current
Feb 21 19:01:08 <CosmoHill> mmm, rpm
Feb 21 19:10:11 <sh0gun> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMwlchuqsXo
Feb 21 19:10:55 <Stskeeps> that's what?
Feb 21 19:11:08 <CosmoHill> MER on n900 with LXDE
Feb 21 19:11:28 <Stskeeps> ah, no news
Feb 21 19:11:48 <Stskeeps> i think my video is cooler :P
Feb 21 19:14:15 <CosmoHill> hmm, nvidia can't find the kernel source
Feb 21 19:23:51 * CosmoHill dances
Feb 21 19:23:58 <CosmoHill> moblin with nvidia :D
Feb 21 19:24:38 <CosmoHill> oh you've got to me shiting me
Feb 21 19:26:03 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: New video?
Feb 21 19:27:43 <Stskeeps> no, some user
Feb 21 19:28:40 <w00t_> Stskeeps: "my video"
Feb 21 19:42:54 <CosmoHill> if i recompile xorg, do i need to recompile clutter?
Feb 21 19:49:38 <thiago_home> why would you?
Feb 21 19:49:52 <thiago_home> the lib and the protocol are stable
Feb 21 19:50:13 <CosmoHill> i got xorg working with nvidia
Feb 21 19:50:22 <CosmoHill> but part of the panel crashes
Feb 21 19:52:48 <akkimoto> moin moin
Feb 21 19:53:44 <Stskeeps> moin
Feb 21 19:55:11 <akkimoto> i like that here someone snack platt
Feb 21 19:55:50 <akkimoto> has meego a localization for the platt language?
Feb 21 19:56:21 <till-> :)
Feb 21 19:56:22 <Shrik3> the what language?
Feb 21 19:56:50 <till-> a kind of german
Feb 21 19:59:49 <th0br0> no probs with me Stskeeps
Feb 21 19:59:52 <CosmoHill> (moblin-panel-media:951): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
Feb 21 20:00:31 <Stskeeps> meego and maemo is way too close in spelling when you're sleepy
Feb 21 20:00:31 <Stskeeps> :P
Feb 21 20:02:07 <th0br0> :P Stskeeps
Feb 21 20:03:02 <akkimoto> the problem is, that the translation german-platt (or english-platt) is not good word by word
Feb 21 20:03:50 <CosmoHill> how do i find out the xorg display so i can start something from the command line
Feb 21 20:03:59 <akkimoto> the people in northern germany that speaks platt spek not many words and have short phrases
Feb 21 20:05:29 <akkimoto> some examles (english-german-platt)
Feb 21 20:05:51 <akkimoto> good morging-guten morgen-moin
Feb 21 20:06:13 <akkimoto> good afternoon-guten abend-moin
Feb 21 20:06:35 <akkimoto> good night-gute nacht-moin
Feb 21 20:06:48 <akkimoto> hello-hallo-moin
Feb 21 20:06:59 <akkimoto> understand my problem?
Feb 21 20:11:22 <akkimoto> the other problem is, that sometimes the words speak to a man is different to the women in the same situation
Feb 21 20:12:35 <akkimoto> a friend come in my house: speak to a man: kümm rin, snack di ut. and to the woman: kümm rin, treck di ut.
Feb 21 20:15:49 * CosmoHill sighs
Feb 21 20:15:52 <CosmoHill> so much fail :(
Feb 21 20:16:42 <MisterN> akkimoto: platt isn't really german anyways :P
Feb 21 20:17:30 * CosmoHill stabs nvidia
Feb 21 20:18:18 <akkimoto> istern yes, platt is (i think) a own language with influences of english, danish an german
Feb 21 20:30:10 <Jaffa> Tomorrow's mwkn.net issue is a "MeeGo special"
Feb 21 20:30:54 <CosmoHill> yay
Feb 21 20:40:01 <akkimoto> hm
Feb 21 20:46:52 <ali1234> ok i have mock working, now i just need a config file for moblin...
Feb 21 20:47:14 <CosmoHill> nvidia hates me
Feb 21 20:47:27 <slaine_> Jaffa: will bolsh  be writing that mwkn.net issue tomorrow ?
Feb 21 20:47:50 <MisterN> CosmoHill: aww poor you
Feb 21 20:49:23 <CosmoHill> every time i install the nvidia graphics driver the moblin UI breaks
Feb 21 20:53:28 <slaine_> You followed brendans guide ?
Feb 21 20:54:21 <CosmoHill> http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=87
Feb 21 20:55:18 <slaine_> yeah
Feb 21 20:55:49 <CosmoHill> i followed that but with the current driver
Feb 21 20:56:16 <th0br0> bye everyone, ttyl
Feb 21 20:56:21 <CosmoHill> bye
Feb 21 20:56:40 <slaine_> I never tried it myself
Feb 21 20:59:42 <CosmoHill> i knew somethign was missing
Feb 21 20:59:51 <CosmoHill> the music icon
Feb 21 21:00:29 <Jaffa> slaine_: ?
Feb 21 21:00:54 <slaine_> the mwkn.net MeeGo issue you mentioned
Feb 21 21:00:59 <slaine_> Is Dave Neary doing it ?
Feb 21 21:01:21 <Jaffa> slaine_: Oh, I didn't recognise the nick of "bolsh" since he goes by "dneary" in Maemo circles.
Feb 21 21:01:28 <slaine_> ah right
Feb 21 21:01:35 <Jaffa> slaine_: No, he's not.
Feb 21 21:01:36 <slaine_> I know him from his ilug days
Feb 21 21:17:26 <slaine_> fecking wifi
Feb 21 21:17:35 <CosmoHill> hehe
Feb 21 21:17:42 <CosmoHill> wifi card or router?
Feb 21 21:18:50 <slaine_> router
Feb 21 21:18:56 <CosmoHill> netgear?
Feb 21 21:18:57 <slaine_> went down twice last week
Feb 21 21:19:31 <slaine_> hmmm, linksys I think, the wrt54gs
Feb 21 21:20:42 <CosmoHill> i'm thinking of getting a linksys
Feb 21 21:21:05 <slaine_> I've had it for years, it's mostly great
Feb 21 21:21:23 <CosmoHill> our adsl connection sucks
Feb 21 21:21:33 <CosmoHill> it holds on to it for too long
Feb 21 21:45:29 <lbt> Jaffa: just looking at the python proto-thread.... and it's a good question. Where is meego's python-libs and perl-libs ?
Feb 21 22:01:00 <CosmoHill> http://www.genesi-usa.com/products
Feb 21 22:01:06 <CosmoHill> meego would be great for these
Feb 21 22:13:16 <jku> CosmoHill, cortex a8 and 512 MB of memory sounds light for a netbook though
Feb 21 22:13:20 <jku> ...and I don't just say that because of my employer :)
Feb 21 22:13:42 <CosmoHill> MS? :p
Feb 21 22:13:53 <jku> ha
Feb 21 22:13:54 <jku> ha
Feb 21 22:14:09 <CosmoHill> oh, can i lol at people who ask if an ARM based laptop can run windows XP / vista
Feb 21 22:14:48 <CosmoHill> there is a reason that crapbook came with windows CE
Feb 21 22:22:37 <CosmoHill> i wonder, if meego can run on netbooks, can it run on older PC hardware?
Feb 21 22:22:56 <Jaffa> lbt: no idea. /me hopes the PyMaemo team would be involved/contacted
Feb 21 22:30:55 <jku> CosmoHill, why not, but I'm guessing the default WM(s) are going to require 3D acceleration
Feb 21 22:33:23 <CosmoHill> http://www.flickr.com/photos/29844928@N07/4368522936/sizes/l/in/set-72157623336807855/
Feb 21 22:33:26 <CosmoHill> sweet
Feb 21 22:35:29 <ShadowJK> and the default build requires ssse3
Feb 21 22:37:56 <CosmoHill> or meego?
Feb 21 22:39:21 * CosmoHill reads up on ssse3
Feb 21 22:42:52 <CosmoHill> why does it require ssse3 and not sse3?
Feb 21 22:45:31 <ShadowJK> ssse3 is awesomer
Feb 21 22:45:37 <ShadowJK> and atom has it
Feb 21 22:46:37 <CosmoHill> reading about the atom, the chipset seems to use more power than the processor
Feb 21 22:47:10 <tripzero> more and more of the chipset functionality is moving inside the processor
Feb 21 22:47:36 <CosmoHill> like the RAM controller
Feb 21 22:48:41 <tripzero> and GPU
Feb 21 22:49:08 <CosmoHill> ah yes, Nvidia ION
Feb 21 22:49:15 <ShadowJK> I think the situation is a bit better with the newer atoms that are more of a SOC design
Feb 21 22:54:58 <arjan> pinetrail is a ton better
Feb 21 23:02:34 <CosmoHill> i don't like the way netbooks seem to be moving towards low powered small laptops
Feb 21 23:02:49 <microlith> moving towrads?
Feb 21 23:02:51 <microlith> towards*
Feb 21 23:02:59 <microlith> I think that was their intention, no?
Feb 21 23:03:17 <thiago_home> what should they be moving towards?
Feb 21 23:03:22 <CosmoHill> i mean they are getting bigger and having hard drives
Feb 21 23:03:48 <CosmoHill> like the 9" dell with 8GB / 16GB SSD is now a 10" with a 160GB hard drive
Feb 21 23:04:38 <microlith> it's been at 10" for some time now though
Feb 21 23:06:37 <CosmoHill> i also get annoyed when people wonder why they can't play games on them
Feb 21 23:07:02 <CosmoHill> I mean it's an intel atom ffs, it can't play crysis
Feb 21 23:07:08 <CosmoHill> poor little netbook
Feb 21 23:07:38 <MuJ> you can always play nethack just fine ;)
Feb 21 23:08:08 <CosmoHill> hehe
Feb 21 23:08:26 <CosmoHill> that reminds me, i have to make a text based RPG game for my assignment
Feb 21 23:15:20 * CosmoHill shakes his fist at his 100Mhz FSB
Feb 21 23:16:56 * lcuk uses a pencil to downclock to CosmoHill to 66mhz
Feb 21 23:17:45 <CosmoHill> if it was that easy I've go up to 133Mhz and get a nice 1Ghz VIA
Feb 21 23:18:24 <lcuk> irc is a great multi player RPG
Feb 21 23:18:58 <lcuk> meego level was just unlocked a few days ago ;)
Feb 21 23:19:00 <CosmoHill> after i get my grades back you guys could see my source code if you wanted
Feb 21 23:19:05 <CosmoHill> that reminds me, i need to setup svn
Feb 21 23:19:15 <lcuk> why not git
Feb 21 23:19:17 <CosmoHill> hehe
Feb 21 23:19:30 <CosmoHill> i understand the versions in svn more
Feb 21 23:19:38 <lcuk> heh
Feb 21 23:19:46 <CosmoHill> actually, all i should do is a changelog with dates
Feb 21 23:20:00 <lcuk> i like the web interface in git and also gitk and stuff
Feb 21 23:21:05 <CosmoHill> i just thought, i could have 2 x 1.4Ghz VIA C3 processors in my dell
Feb 21 23:32:45 <microlith> hmm
Feb 21 23:33:28 <microlith> with ubuntu 9.10 I was getting all sorts of ata messages out in dmesg, but moblin is silent
Feb 21 23:33:28 <CosmoHill> i think my server would be improved by the via padlock
Feb 21 23:33:40 * microlith wonders what's different
Feb 21 23:34:01 <CosmoHill> it would improve ssh performace
Feb 21 23:34:12 <microlith> hardware AES?
Feb 21 23:34:16 <CosmoHill> yep
Feb 21 23:34:31 <microlith> some of the newer core chips from intel have AES acceleration stuff
Feb 21 23:34:47 <microlith> that'll probably be pretty common soon
Feb 21 23:34:47 <CosmoHill> my server is a P3 copermine
Feb 21 23:34:52 <microlith> poky
Feb 21 23:35:09 <CosmoHill> low power :)
Feb 21 23:35:13 <microlith> yeah
Feb 21 23:35:23 <CosmoHill> 57w typical
Feb 21 23:35:23 <microlith> well, not terribly
Feb 21 23:35:46 <lcuk> o_o doubles as a room heater too
Feb 21 23:35:54 <microlith> that's more than some recent i5/i7 mobile chips
Feb 21 23:35:55 <CosmoHill> lol
Feb 21 23:36:10 <microlith> not that I can talk, if my thinkpad's power supply hadn't gone out I'd be using it too
Feb 21 23:36:51 <CosmoHill> lcuk: it has a 80mm nochaua fan
Feb 21 23:37:05 <lcuk> nice, full air conditioning support then
Feb 21 23:37:23 <CosmoHill> couldn't run it with the 40mm, way to loud
Feb 21 23:37:31 <lcuk> does it have a humidifier?
Feb 21 23:37:34 <CosmoHill> http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_2572.html
Feb 21 23:37:41 <CosmoHill> no?
Feb 21 23:38:03 <lcuk> awww shucks
Feb 21 23:41:22 <lcuk> CosmoHill, im actively trying to remove all the spinning magnetic domains in my room due to noise
Feb 21 23:41:39 <CosmoHill> magnetic domains?
Feb 21 23:41:43 <lcuk> its in the background so much its like im on a starship
Feb 21 23:41:46 <lcuk> yeah motors
Feb 21 23:41:53 <CosmoHill> ah
Feb 21 23:41:53 <lcuk> fans/drives
Feb 21 23:42:03 * arjan suggests good ssds
Feb 21 23:42:05 <arjan> they ROCK
Feb 21 23:42:08 <CosmoHill> first week with my server in my room took me a while
Feb 21 23:42:14 <lcuk> yeah arjan
Feb 21 23:42:20 <CosmoHill> arjan: but I'm a mortal, i can't afford them
Feb 21 23:42:32 <lcuk> CosmoHill, my n900 has 32gb
Feb 21 23:42:36 <CosmoHill> hell, toping up the car was a shock
Feb 21 23:43:07 <CosmoHill> $74 USD for a full tank
Feb 21 23:43:23 <ShadowJK> what kind of tank is that..
Feb 21 23:43:29 <CosmoHill> 45L
Feb 21 23:43:32 <lcuk> use alternative sources of fuel
Feb 21 23:43:40 <lcuk> but as with all advice, your mileage may vary
Feb 21 23:44:31 <ShadowJK> It's just silly how far ahead the intel first generation SSDs were of everything else, and then intel comes out with g2 and slashed price.. It's just brutal :-)
Feb 21 23:45:33 <CosmoHill> http://cosmo1847.co.uk/?page=server
Feb 21 23:45:36 <CosmoHill> here's my server specs
Feb 21 23:45:44 <CosmoHill> you can also read a little about me
Feb 21 23:47:10 <ShadowJK> heh, I threw out my P3 and replaced it with a Intel D945GCLF2 board (dual core atom 330)
Feb 21 23:47:32 <CosmoHill> i was pondering that
Feb 21 23:48:10 <ShadowJK> There's a newer board from intel available now, with the memory controller and GPU integrated into the processor
Feb 21 23:48:35 <ShadowJK> It seems to be fanless too... Although I don't think anyone's D945GCLF2's fan lasted more than a month or two anyway :)
Feb 21 23:48:56 <CosmoHill> http://black-flag.co.uk/files/server/DSC_0284.JPG
Feb 21 23:49:20 <CosmoHill> yes, that is a 80mm fan mounted onto the hard drives
Feb 21 23:50:18 <ShadowJK> The 5000-ish rpm drives from WD and Samsung are both cheap and quiet :)
Feb 21 23:50:22 <ShadowJK> not as quiet as SSD, of course..
Feb 21 23:50:26 <ShadowJK> and cool
Feb 21 23:51:17 <CosmoHill> they seem cool
Feb 21 23:51:26 <CosmoHill> i think they came out after i got mine
Feb 21 23:52:20 <CosmoHill> i bought the two best fans to try out
Feb 21 23:52:48 <CosmoHill> the brown one is better than the white
Feb 21 23:56:53 <arachnist> ShadowJK: recently i bought 6 samsung drives. 5 of them died within first 3 days
Feb 21 23:57:08 <arachnist> ShadowJK: 1.5TB ones
Feb 21 23:57:20 <arachnist> got seagates as a replacement
Feb 21 23:57:58 <ShadowJK> After the seagate firmware fail I've started backing up to a drive from another manufacturer
Feb 21 23:58:07 <arachnist> well
Feb 21 23:58:09 <ShadowJK> so I have a mix of sg, samsung and wd
Feb 21 23:58:21 <arachnist> those seagates are in raidz2
Feb 21 23:58:42 <arachnist> so 2 of them can die before i actually lose data
Feb 21 23:59:15 <CosmoHill> i ended up with about 7 samsung spinpoiints
Feb 21 23:59:25 <ShadowJK> The fun thing about that seagate firmware failure was that the drives would fail when a counter reached a certain value, so in raid situations where the drives were powered on/off at the same time and had run for approximately similar lengths of time, it was very common to see all the drives in the raid array fail at the same time :)
Feb 21 23:59:28 <CosmoHill> i would have more if my supplier did them in 7600rpm
Feb 22 00:00:29 <arachnist> ShadowJK: well, important data of them is backed up to a mirror of hitachi drives on a different pc
Feb 22 00:00:49 <arachnist> (yay for zfs send/zfs recv and incremental backups)
Feb 22 00:01:29 <CosmoHill> my server has one 200GB ATA and two 500GB SATA RAID 1
Feb 22 00:02:04 <microlith> ShadowJK: for a very, very strange definition of "fun" :p
Feb 22 00:02:14 <ShadowJK> microlith :)
Feb 22 00:03:10 <ShadowJK> microlith, some russians eventually reverse engineered the diagnostic port on the seagate drives and found a way to talk to the controller and "fix" it.. it involved booting the board without the drive connected, then hot-connecting the drive and executing some strange incantations in the drive board's OS :)
Feb 22 00:03:10 <CosmoHill> it's funny if it's not your array
Feb 22 00:03:27 <microlith> ShadowJK: now that's cool, if a bit scary
Feb 22 00:04:27 <microlith> speaking of diagnostic ports, if no one else is going to do it I should borrow some equipment at work and find out which of the pads in the battery compartment go to the serial port
Feb 22 00:08:41 <CosmoHill> is it weird that I'm talking to you on one laptop and watching a video on another?
Feb 22 00:08:56 <microlith> no
Feb 22 00:09:04 <CosmoHill> I'm also in bed
Feb 22 00:09:05 <microlith> I have four monitors facing me
Feb 22 00:09:35 <bfree> CosmoHill: stop there, too much info already ;-)
Feb 22 00:09:46 <CosmoHill> I'm watching a comedy show btw
Feb 22 00:12:50 <jacquesdupontd> is anybody here ?
Feb 22 00:12:57 <CosmoHill> no
Feb 22 00:13:04 <CosmoHill> they went to the pub
Feb 22 00:13:13 <CosmoHill> but they all have smart phones so they are here
Feb 22 00:13:17 <jacquesdupontd> ok
Feb 22 00:13:19 <jacquesdupontd> i'm azt the pub
Feb 22 00:13:21 <jacquesdupontd> gaga
Feb 22 00:13:24 <jacquesdupontd> sqok
Feb 22 00:13:26 <jacquesdupontd> oops
Feb 22 00:13:36 <jacquesdupontd> i had a dream
Feb 22 00:13:49 <CosmoHill> does it invole meego on a powerbook?
Feb 22 00:14:04 <jacquesdupontd> in fact i saw time after time that phones were starting from sort of html ui
Feb 22 00:14:25 <jacquesdupontd> and then they began to start using flash for smoothie effects
Feb 22 00:14:39 <jacquesdupontd> everybody agrees this fact ?
Feb 22 00:14:57 <CosmoHill> flash is evil
Feb 22 00:15:03 <jacquesdupontd> true
Feb 22 00:15:08 <jacquesdupontd> thats the point of my dream
Feb 22 00:15:14 <CosmoHill> ah
Feb 22 00:15:17 <jacquesdupontd> yep
Feb 22 00:15:23 <CosmoHill> flash doesn't even run well on my laptop
Feb 22 00:15:32 <jacquesdupontd> do you know about new possibilities with html5 ?
Feb 22 00:15:51 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, back to your dream
Feb 22 00:16:06 <lcuk> most people dont normally specify versions in dream sequences ;)
Feb 22 00:16:11 <jacquesdupontd> they did really great stuff in order to avoid flash
Feb 22 00:16:20 <jacquesdupontd> haha
Feb 22 00:16:49 <lcuk> tho ive been told i discuss code in sleep
Feb 22 00:17:12 <jacquesdupontd> that way im thinking there's a really really good opportunity comming back to simple html ui's that are able to be as beautiful as flash ui's and a lot lot lot less powerneeding
Feb 22 00:17:48 <jacquesdupontd> i'm like tesla, i'm lucid drreams where i build things and repair them and then when i wake up i just build it perfectly
Feb 22 00:18:04 <jacquesdupontd> dreams=dreamer
Feb 22 00:18:53 <lcuk> cool, what sort of stuff have you built?
Feb 22 00:19:29 <lcuk> i just follow ideas i have, sometimes as im dropping off to sleep i have to make notes
Feb 22 00:19:30 <jacquesdupontd> no but seriously there's a good oportunity to crash that flash s.... and get back to easy and beautiful ui's that are not taking by themself half of the device power
Feb 22 00:19:52 <lcuk> im being serious, what sort of stuff have you built!
Feb 22 00:20:00 <lcuk> i understand what you are saying perfectly
Feb 22 00:20:13 <arjan> one suggestion; don't irc-sleep ;-)
Feb 22 00:20:21 <arjan> that's worse than irc-while-drunk
Feb 22 00:20:27 <jacquesdupontd> and you can't disagree that fact, today's ui, i mean the most beautiful ones aren't enought intuitive to be built to that point
Feb 22 00:20:46 <jacquesdupontd> nah i just took drugs
Feb 22 00:20:47 <lcuk> rendering engine for the n810 and 900 http://www.youtube.com/user/lcukmaemo#p/a/u/2/7hGUKICDeok
Feb 22 00:20:50 <w00t_> http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/02/pyside-tutorial-model-view-programming_22.html <- another new tutorial on Qt development in python, if anyone is interested</plug>
Feb 22 00:20:57 <jacquesdupontd> no seriously for now i didn't do anythings
Feb 22 00:21:02 <CosmoHill> irc sleep?
Feb 22 00:21:15 <jacquesdupontd> i'm simply suggesting cause i'm bulding a tabletcomputer
Feb 22 00:22:25 <jacquesdupontd> and i'm at the software state, i'm trying many of those existing , including moblin, those mid ubuntu distrib, mer, etc... and my choice was to make a device better than a netbook
Feb 22 00:22:28 <CosmoHill> that reminds me
Feb 22 00:22:39 <CosmoHill> i thought the ipad was going to take out the modbook
Feb 22 00:22:49 <GeneralAntilles> Does anybody object to the Who's Who page being groups more meaningfully and alphabetized?
Feb 22 00:22:51 <CosmoHill> but the ipad is just an upsaled ipod touch
Feb 22 00:23:00 <jacquesdupontd> cause i dont like when things are just "Working" i want them to run fast
Feb 22 00:23:04 <CosmoHill> GeneralAntilles: sounds good to me
Feb 22 00:23:10 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, what the video
Feb 22 00:23:15 <lcuk> watch even
Feb 22 00:23:16 <arjan> GeneralAntilles: go wild
Feb 22 00:23:22 * lcuk should irc sleep 
Feb 22 00:23:40 <lcuk> lol  GeneralAntilles
Feb 22 00:23:43 <CosmoHill> if I'm on IRC i'm normally awake
Feb 22 00:23:59 <CosmoHill> however in the summer i normally fall sleep in the afternoon
Feb 22 00:24:24 <GeneralAntilles> Well, except for the fact that I can't actually edit anything on the wiki.
Feb 22 00:24:28 <GeneralAntilles> Nevermind then.
Feb 22 00:24:53 <jacquesdupontd> i don't wanna see anylag in a tablet that is also a beautiful object, to me it's like doing half work and lying to custemers selling them something shinny and then just working enought to go on internet, and well yes it goes on internet, tbut then they have to buy 1 computer for work , one for travelling, one for personnal use, one for kitchen
Feb 22 00:25:51 <GeneralAntilles> Ugh, let's play the "try to get your email address re-confirmed" game.
Feb 22 00:25:57 <lcuk> so jacquesdupontd how are you going to go about it
Feb 22 00:26:01 <jacquesdupontd> that i was i prefer selling a tablet at 600 or 700 boxes working pefectly for different uses adaptating itself to the place you are by changing the UI to be used etc ...
Feb 22 00:26:04 * GeneralAntilles can see meego.com isn't having any more fun with SSO than maemo.org.
Feb 22 00:26:13 <CosmoHill> SSO?
Feb 22 00:26:18 <jacquesdupontd> i don't know for now what's gonna be the bast
Feb 22 00:26:19 <jacquesdupontd> base
Feb 22 00:26:20 <lcuk> single sign on
Feb 22 00:26:25 <jacquesdupontd> i'm thinking of a ubuntu-minimal
Feb 22 00:26:53 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, but all these different sizes are going to need different uis to work
Feb 22 00:26:54 <CosmoHill> build your own distro
Feb 22 00:27:55 <jacquesdupontd> and then either taking a window manager like kde which's getting really beautiful, and modifying it in order to be used with different profiles, well 2 big profile, 1 = bluetooth keyboard and mouse when i come back home, means normal resolution and computer UI, the other : finger use and internet browsing when big buttons but still beautiful
Feb 22 00:28:27 <CosmoHill> if i was a mute a table would be awesome
Feb 22 00:28:39 <CosmoHill> it's like a small white board with wifi
Feb 22 00:28:48 <jacquesdupontd> CosmoHill i can't build my own distro's first cause i don't have that much time, and then cause there's some already done that i like, ubuntu, maemo (more for little mid) that can be used and then modified
Feb 22 00:28:59 <jacquesdupontd> what's sure is that i'll base it on debian
Feb 22 00:29:13 <jacquesdupontd> then i'll build my stuff for the 2 big UIS
Feb 22 00:29:29 <CosmoHill> I can build a basic distro in about 2 days
Feb 22 00:29:43 <jacquesdupontd> i want them to be changeable in a hand movement and the keyboard and mouse connected by the fact the tablet came back to your room
Feb 22 00:29:51 <jacquesdupontd> thinking about using rfid
Feb 22 00:30:01 <jacquesdupontd> CosmoHill really ?
Feb 22 00:30:08 <CosmoHill> :)
Feb 22 00:30:11 <arjan> building a distro is not all that hard
Feb 22 00:30:13 <jacquesdupontd> cause the thing is i'm quite alone in my project
Feb 22 00:30:14 <CosmoHill> following a book that is
Feb 22 00:30:19 <jacquesdupontd> i know
Feb 22 00:30:22 <jacquesdupontd> but in 2 days :)
Feb 22 00:30:23 <arjan> building one that works fast and does what you want... different story
Feb 22 00:30:32 <jacquesdupontd> yeah
Feb 22 00:30:44 <CosmoHill> jacquesdupontd: if i skip the tests and use my new laptop it would be a lot faster
Feb 22 00:30:46 <jacquesdupontd> don't you think the debian base is completly enough nowadays ?
Feb 22 00:30:55 <arjan> jacquesdupontd: depends on what you want
Feb 22 00:31:06 <arjan> esp how much you want to customize
Feb 22 00:31:15 <lcuk> building a distro:
Feb 22 00:31:15 <lcuk> (1) steal underpants
Feb 22 00:31:15 <lcuk> (2) ???
Feb 22 00:31:15 <lcuk> (3) profit
Feb 22 00:31:40 <jacquesdupontd> i wanna make a device that can evolve very easily even as much as a desktop computer i wanna offer the possibility to people not to be restricted for a marketing reason
Feb 22 00:31:56 <jacquesdupontd> i'm sure we can still make money being a good guy
Feb 22 00:32:23 <CosmoHill> jacquesdupontd: I've built a distro for x86, ultrasparc and ppc
Feb 22 00:33:01 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, when you say beautiful, what do you base beauty on
Feb 22 00:33:09 <jacquesdupontd> i'm thinking that if you got the trust of clients that they see you're not lying to them, not trying to avoid the possibility for them to upgrade their stuff alone, if you show them that you're not taking them for childs but taking care about people not in an advanced state, that will make a so big change compared to other compagnies that you gonna get a place
Feb 22 00:33:22 <CosmoHill> hmm
Feb 22 00:33:25 <jacquesdupontd> i wanna bet on that
Feb 22 00:33:40 <jacquesdupontd> beautiful means
Feb 22 00:33:40 <CosmoHill> one of the guys in irc went into apple and asked about a known problem with the 27" imac
Feb 22 00:33:52 <CosmoHill> person working there said there was no problem and he walked out
Feb 22 00:34:00 <CosmoHill> £1300 less for them
Feb 22 00:34:14 <jacquesdupontd> clear : intuitive, intelligent, close to us, the one that you nearly wanna touch to see if its really smooth
Feb 22 00:34:27 <jacquesdupontd> do you understand ? and that's the point cause we are in a touchable device
Feb 22 00:34:36 <lcuk> like, give examples where you have seen such things
Feb 22 00:34:50 <arjan> jacquesdupontd: develop software like that .... but it likely doesnt depend on what OS you use as base, be it meego or whatever
Feb 22 00:34:51 <lcuk> you couldv just described a fart in a bubble bath
Feb 22 00:34:59 <jacquesdupontd> effects are relaly appreciated, for me something between, os x mobile and compiz could be cool
Feb 22 00:35:16 <CosmoHill> bah
Feb 22 00:35:20 <CosmoHill> apple bastards
Feb 22 00:35:23 <jacquesdupontd> cause compiz is really good when well set, but i think it needs to get simplified for a good ui
Feb 22 00:35:25 <lcuk> right, so iphone ui
Feb 22 00:35:33 <jacquesdupontd> CosmoHill i know, but i have to admit things
Feb 22 00:35:39 <jacquesdupontd> when i use an iphone, it just works
Feb 22 00:35:46 * CosmoHill is still trying to workout the rules on swearing
Feb 22 00:35:46 <arjan> compiz looks fun for a few minutes, and then you turn it off
Feb 22 00:35:48 <jacquesdupontd> wich is not the case of all device
Feb 22 00:35:48 <lcuk> apart from when it doesnt
Feb 22 00:35:53 <arjan> at least that seems to be the common pattern
Feb 22 00:36:06 <lcuk> how would you handle multi processes in that environment?
Feb 22 00:36:14 <jacquesdupontd> we can discuss 10 hours about it that won't change, i really dislike apple and they are one reason i'm starting a device
Feb 22 00:36:19 <lcuk> cos everything yo urun will eat into that beauty
Feb 22 00:36:21 <CosmoHill> arjan: lol
Feb 22 00:36:43 <lcuk> i hope fart isnt a swear word
Feb 22 00:36:53 <jacquesdupontd> i ran multiprocess in my iphone, but anyway i'm not talking about the environment i told you i was prefering debian for base, jsut talking about the UI
Feb 22 00:36:55 <lcuk> its descriptive
Feb 22 00:36:57 <CosmoHill> your from england right, lcuk
Feb 22 00:37:10 <lcuk> yes
Feb 22 00:37:13 <jacquesdupontd> easy to see that everybody tried to copy iphone ui when the first iphone got out
Feb 22 00:37:30 <lcuk> nahh, not everyone
Feb 22 00:37:34 <CosmoHill> a problem i have in my irc channel is that the english and the americans concider different things rude
Feb 22 00:37:37 <lcuk> anyway, iphone is sluggish
Feb 22 00:37:42 <lcuk> doesnt do what i want
Feb 22 00:37:43 <lcuk> low res
Feb 22 00:37:52 <jacquesdupontd> i mean, it doesn't have to be the same, as i said i want people to be able to control their device, not to be slave of it , but we have to admit that everybody knows how to use an iphone in 1 hours maximum
Feb 22 00:38:02 <lcuk> closed source
Feb 22 00:38:23 <jacquesdupontd> that's what i call intuitive, if we could mix that intuitivity to possibilities and confidence, that would be perfect
Feb 22 00:38:27 <CosmoHill> the iphone doesn't meet my requirments
Feb 22 00:38:39 <lcuk> “Sequence shortened”
Feb 22 00:38:43 <CosmoHill> you can only use the bluetooth with other iphones
Feb 22 00:38:53 <lcuk> no keyboard
Feb 22 00:38:58 <jacquesdupontd> we stop talking about iphones thazt's not the point i'm not building an iphone
Feb 22 00:39:16 <jacquesdupontd> i'm just building an ipad that is not a big iphone, that's the point :)
Feb 22 00:39:27 <lcuk> we get it, you want something that acts like an iphone
Feb 22 00:39:39 <CosmoHill> like the lg pop?
Feb 22 00:40:00 <jacquesdupontd> yesterday i was thinking and i was imaginating MS making a big tablet, and putting ms mobile on it and i was so laughtingh
Feb 22 00:40:08 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, have you seen the always innovating touchbook
Feb 22 00:40:22 <jacquesdupontd> nobody would accept it and would think its a false device found on ebay hong kong
Feb 22 00:40:35 <jacquesdupontd> lcuk yes
Feb 22 00:40:49 <jacquesdupontd> and there are near to what i'm donig but details or not the same
Feb 22 00:41:03 <jacquesdupontd> cause they've bet on beagle boards, i'm betting on normal board
Feb 22 00:41:08 <lcuk> theres also this cool new project too
Feb 22 00:41:11 <lcuk> you mightv heard about it
Feb 22 00:41:13 <lcuk> called meego
Feb 22 00:41:16 <jacquesdupontd> i'm just looking at the past, see netbooks
Feb 22 00:41:28 <jacquesdupontd> what are netbooks configurations nowadays ? ALL THE SAME
Feb 22 00:41:40 <jacquesdupontd> and people gonna reproduce the thing with tablet
Feb 22 00:41:53 <jacquesdupontd> they are building device that has Just the Necessary
Feb 22 00:42:07 <jacquesdupontd> i'll call the JTND Just THe Necessary Devices
Feb 22 00:42:13 <jacquesdupontd> that's class no ?
Feb 22 00:42:29 <jacquesdupontd> but alwyays innovating touchbook are ... hmm innovating :)à
Feb 22 00:42:36 <jacquesdupontd> and french like me
Feb 22 00:43:33 <jacquesdupontd> don't you agree ?
Feb 22 00:44:03 <jacquesdupontd> you know i'm just getting point of view here and i wanna be countered if you guys has better ideas or think about things that i'm not aware of
Feb 22 00:44:24 <arjan> doing your own hardware is a risk ;)
Feb 22 00:44:31 <arjan> might want to consider running on existing devices
Feb 22 00:44:45 <lcuk> arjan, i said that last night :p
Feb 22 00:44:57 <jacquesdupontd> btw if anybody would like to work on the project knowing that i can't promess anything but i have good reason to think it can be a good oportunity to launch a good project and at the same time to be builders of the future
Feb 22 00:45:03 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, go read up about meego
Feb 22 00:45:06 <lcuk> it does what you said
Feb 22 00:45:07 <jacquesdupontd> yeah
Feb 22 00:45:19 <jacquesdupontd> i wanna use some existing motherboards on the beginning
Feb 22 00:46:05 <jacquesdupontd> you know i'm not expecting or hoping to make the best device and the best way, what i'm sure of is the price of my device, what'll be able to do, and how it will be made
Feb 22 00:46:41 <jacquesdupontd> and only with that we can make a lot better than what's existing , then after bank pass, i'll be thinking about optimising
Feb 22 00:47:18 <jacquesdupontd> the first point is not to be selfish
Feb 22 00:48:13 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your blog.
Feb 22 00:49:07 <jacquesdupontd> for me that's amazing to think that nowadays , you can buy a 300 euros real laptop, and if you're just a little bit ingenious build your own tablet with the ui you want and have if for really cheaper than worst devices supposed to represent the futur
Feb 22 00:50:54 <jacquesdupontd> i tell you, i'm not promising anything, what i know is i have the bank links, i've got my enterprise, my ideas, and i think this is the time to move my ass instead of keeping my ideas for me all the time and seeing things going out always worse than what i was thinking about making and being sold very easily anyway
Feb 22 00:51:04 <jacquesdupontd> i'm a lot counting on people councious
Feb 22 00:52:18 <jacquesdupontd> and i'm knowing the world aint seperated in 2 big parts, the good people and the bad ones, it's a lot more complex, but we really can do better and easily and you all know it set on your couch
Feb 22 00:52:19 <jacquesdupontd> :)
Feb 22 00:52:33 <ali1234> i compiled my first rpm in mock
Feb 22 00:52:42 <ali1234> now pulling all the moblin source
Feb 22 00:52:51 <ali1234> i'm keeping notes
Feb 22 00:52:59 <ali1234> setting up mock for moblin was not exactly easy
Feb 22 00:53:02 <arjan> ali1234: what was the chroot issue ?
Feb 22 00:53:05 <lcuk> ali1234, cool, so you got over the issue of chrooting the chroot generting mock
Feb 22 00:53:22 <jacquesdupontd> that's really cool
Feb 22 00:53:33 <ali1234> the chroot issue was: my mock temp dir was not set stick for group permissions (g+s) and then my scratch disk was mounted as nodev, nosuid
Feb 22 00:53:45 <arjan> hehe nosuid will do it
Feb 22 00:54:17 <jacquesdupontd> this are the stuff i don't have time to do, cause if i wanna have something ready before ipad, even if it's not that important to be before them cause i'm not pointing the exact same customers, i have to go fast anyway
Feb 22 00:54:28 <ali1234> nodev actually killed it first: permission denied on /dev/null for some perl script
Feb 22 00:54:49 <jacquesdupontd> hehe
Feb 22 00:54:58 <ali1234> jacquesdupontd: plenty of people have made tablets years ago. the hard part is getting them in shops...
Feb 22 00:55:01 <arjan> not having /dev/null makes things go splat very very quickly
Feb 22 00:56:05 <jacquesdupontd> guys we all know that is the time of touch book now like it was the time of netbook just before, and for those who've made tablets years ago they were not unerstanding customers state in computers at this moment
Feb 22 00:56:20 <jacquesdupontd> that's why it went down, it's like do you remember the first visio phones ?
Feb 22 00:56:24 <jacquesdupontd> exactly same story
Feb 22 00:56:25 <ali1234> personally i think now is the time of the smartbook
Feb 22 00:56:35 <ali1234> because for me anything without a keyboard is useless
Feb 22 00:56:56 <ali1234> and a large exposed screen is just asking for it do get sat on and broken
Feb 22 00:57:38 <jacquesdupontd> when a big compagnie like Apple is dictating the world and giving the start for the fight, you have to look at the near past and to take your chance to make the challenge and to show them that this time they shouldn't have waited to long to evolve
Feb 22 00:58:04 <ali1234> heh... let apple create the demand with their marketing, then offer something cheaper and better
Feb 22 00:58:27 <ali1234> like i said the other day... everyone wants to be the second person to do something
Feb 22 00:58:29 <jacquesdupontd> cause as they're alone to be shown as smart and designers, they can do whatever they want people won't have choices to have better, they could do the ipad v10 right now, but they are using the first rule in marketting , one idea after another
Feb 22 00:58:49 <jacquesdupontd> use ideas the most you can so you get the more money on it, even you're stopping things to evolve
Feb 22 00:59:17 <jacquesdupontd> i think people are beginning to understand that way of doing and are really bored about it , there's a chance
Feb 22 00:59:22 <lcuk> so jacquesdupontd put your ideas on paper or get coding
Feb 22 00:59:22 <jacquesdupontd> at least for a good start
Feb 22 00:59:40 <CosmoHill> if anyone wants me just poke
Feb 22 00:59:43 <jacquesdupontd> i'm doing my stuff and i'm hoping to be able to post to you a video at the end of the weekd
Feb 22 00:59:56 * lcuk pokes CosmoHill with a big stick
Feb 22 01:00:03 <jacquesdupontd> i jsut received my needed packages comming from hong kong to finish the first built
Feb 22 01:00:08 <CosmoHill> oh my dirty mind misread that
Feb 22 01:00:16 <jacquesdupontd> i have to got to take it tomorow at the mail office
Feb 22 01:01:22 <jacquesdupontd> and then , working no it all the week till this week end, and first presentation previewed next week at different banks, to have just a few euros, at least enought to be able to do thing better enought to be sold
Feb 22 01:01:33 * lcuk kicks machines at the other end of email connections
Feb 22 01:02:14 <jacquesdupontd> hm btw a question without any link
Feb 22 01:02:19 <lcuk> oooooh jacquesdupontd i cant wait, the suspense since you entered the chan has climbed steadily
Feb 22 01:02:26 <jacquesdupontd> is there an issue for moblin and nvidia and xinerama and composite ?
Feb 22 01:02:29 <lcuk> it will reach feverpitch by next week
Feb 22 01:02:39 <jacquesdupontd> and clutter-glx
Feb 22 01:02:58 <lcuk> when will us mere mortals learn of your plans?
Feb 22 01:03:02 <jacquesdupontd> lcuk i'm not goint to do anything better than what you can expect
Feb 22 01:03:19 <jacquesdupontd> a tablet with a good linux with a good ui and good design is makeable by anybody
Feb 22 01:03:35 <jacquesdupontd> then details will play
Feb 22 01:03:45 <lcuk> jacquesdupontd, what you propose would take solid hard work from a massive team of people a long time to get to where you think it needs to be
Feb 22 01:04:00 <jacquesdupontd> oh
Feb 22 01:04:11 <jacquesdupontd> no not thinking that way
Feb 22 01:04:16 <lcuk> do you have any idea of the kind of experience required to create multiple uis for every application you desire will take
Feb 22 01:04:46 <jacquesdupontd> you can be sure that if any thing is working for everybody that played in it means teams of existing ui's if i'm using some will be helped in a way or another
Feb 22 01:05:13 <jacquesdupontd> as i told you i think there's for sure a way to do good things fairly and sill be working and earning money enought to continue
Feb 22 01:05:56 <ali1234> hmm i bet there are a lot of srpms that begin with l
Feb 22 01:05:57 <jacquesdupontd> i can live with nearly nothing, my love is to have ideas and to build things, it can be music , painting, devices, if people use them like them and that i can even more thank some others
Feb 22 01:06:00 <jacquesdupontd> that's all i want
Feb 22 01:06:18 <lcuk> then get on with it
Feb 22 01:06:25 <jacquesdupontd> that'll make exactly as when i play my music and when people are dancing or smiling on it
Feb 22 01:06:38 <lcuk> what language will you use?
Feb 22 01:06:42 <jacquesdupontd> lcuk yes i'm gonna do it
Feb 22 01:07:05 <jacquesdupontd> thatwhat i was talking about on my first talk on the channel
Feb 22 01:07:11 <jacquesdupontd> i'm thinking about comming back to html5
Feb 22 01:07:26 <jacquesdupontd> cause it offers possibilities that can bypass the use of flash
Feb 22 01:07:27 <lcuk> sure
Feb 22 01:07:34 <lcuk> but that paradigm breaks down at some level
Feb 22 01:07:35 <jacquesdupontd> but i've got to get back into it
Feb 22 01:07:46 <lcuk> no, you need a backend renderer for it
Feb 22 01:07:57 <jacquesdupontd> and very fast that's why i was searching for people who may have already thought about it and who may have ideas or would like to get in the project
Feb 22 01:07:57 <lcuk> and the api to support it
Feb 22 01:08:10 <CosmoHill> night ngiht
Feb 22 01:08:17 <lcuk> just so one day a person can <twit>going to the toilet</twit>
Feb 22 01:08:21 <ali1234> html5 already has plenty of backend renders
Feb 22 01:08:24 <lcuk> gnite cosmo
Feb 22 01:08:37 <jacquesdupontd> yes
Feb 22 01:08:52 <lcuk> but how do you make an operating system out of them
Feb 22 01:09:22 <ali1234> gee i dunno, but palm managed it
Feb 22 01:09:27 <lcuk> indeed
Feb 22 01:09:33 <lcuk> and i bet it took a lot longer than a week
Feb 22 01:09:34 <jacquesdupontd> but i dont' see what's hard in installing a ubuntu or debian based to be precise, and just to set it the way you think with existing apps, that's a good start, that's what did edubuntu , ubuntu studio etc .....
Feb 22 01:09:57 <jacquesdupontd> then if things are getting good you be surely thinking about building your own system
Feb 22 01:10:44 <jacquesdupontd> but i don't think i've got the time to do it now, we can start with existing things and then have money = time = possiblities = people = enthousiasm = concrete
Feb 22 01:10:50 <ali1234> i bet if you discount all the time developers were sleeping under their desks it only took 3 days to make webos
Feb 22 01:11:10 <jacquesdupontd> haha
Feb 22 01:11:19 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 i'm thinking of webos for sure
Feb 22 01:11:28 <jacquesdupontd> but i think it's a little bit too early
Feb 22 01:12:00 <ali1234> at this rate it's gonna take me more than a wekk just to get the moblin source
Feb 22 01:12:06 <jacquesdupontd> but we are surely going to at least a simple os on the computer, that will synchronise completly with the exact same os on the web useable from any device
Feb 22 01:12:19 <ali1234> sounds like alex
Feb 22 01:12:32 <ali1234> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8522952.stm
Feb 22 01:12:53 <jacquesdupontd> i was using webos at work 4 years ago
Feb 22 01:13:28 <jacquesdupontd> but the thing is until all devices are able to connect to the internet really easily and without paying the price of 1 week food
Feb 22 01:13:52 <ali1234> yeah that's the problem
Feb 22 01:13:54 <jacquesdupontd> we'll have to make them discover other os's by the fact they are changing now of devices
Feb 22 01:14:14 <ali1234> (with server based computing)
Feb 22 01:14:20 <ali1234> you always need the server
Feb 22 01:14:38 <jacquesdupontd> ms and apple were a problem cause they were god of PCs but now we are changing the devices, people will accept a lot easier to change the interface, and we saw it with netbooks
Feb 22 01:14:39 <ali1234> so you end up paying silly amounts for always-on connection
Feb 22 01:14:49 <jacquesdupontd> yep
Feb 22 01:14:57 <jacquesdupontd> but i've got my ideas on it
Feb 22 01:15:10 <jacquesdupontd> but would be a total different way of thinking the internet and servers
Feb 22 01:15:24 <jacquesdupontd> would be based on neightbourhood
Feb 22 01:15:35 <ali1234> well, you know, the internet isn't the end-all of networks
Feb 22 01:15:43 <jacquesdupontd> to seperate the internet not in humans but in bench of humans
Feb 22 01:15:47 <ali1234> avahi?
Feb 22 01:15:53 <jacquesdupontd> that's hard to explain
Feb 22 01:16:10 <jacquesdupontd> but the principe is together we are stronger, and that's the same for computers
Feb 22 01:16:29 <ali1234> if you encrypt everything you can just push your messages to everyone in range, in the hopes that eventually one of them will go in range of the recipient
Feb 22 01:16:34 <jacquesdupontd> we already see community of people sharing the wifi connection
Feb 22 01:16:43 <jacquesdupontd> my idea is based on that way of thinking
Feb 22 01:17:10 <ali1234> add a bit of intelligence (ie looking at who knows who from their social networking profiles) and that could work very well
Feb 22 01:17:16 <jacquesdupontd> viruses knows the most way what i'm saying
Feb 22 01:17:19 <ShadowJK> mesh networking?
Feb 22 01:17:34 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 exactly !!
Feb 22 01:17:38 <ali1234> not mesh networking, i'm thinking more like email
Feb 22 01:17:44 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 happy to see someone thinking things are possible
Feb 22 01:17:58 <ali1234> or like the old fidonet where everything goes through multiple nodes and takes sometimes days anyway
Feb 22 01:18:45 <DocScrutinizer> fidonet - yeehaa
Feb 22 01:18:51 <ali1234> so alice emails bob, but bob is out of range of the avahi network. but on the social network we see bob lives with colin, who is in range. so the message goes to colin's machine, and when he gets home it gets delivered to bob
Feb 22 01:19:28 <arjan> this sounds like usenet
Feb 22 01:19:29 <jacquesdupontd> well, what i wanted to say is that i don't want to touch a SQUARE GREY OLD LAGGING button, i prefer a round smoothie and shinny one :)
Feb 22 01:20:20 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 that's prolly what im thinking of, a p2 multiple peer but with near neighboorhood with antennas and wimax i dont' know
Feb 22 01:20:45 <ali1234> jacquesdupontd: why limit it to a specific protocol, just turn on avahi and let rip :)
Feb 22 01:20:53 <ShadowJK> the HAMs have this aprs system that relays things.. kinda cool
Feb 22 01:21:42 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 that was an understandable example but for not that protocol
Feb 22 01:22:00 <fnordian900> ali1234, check out dtnrg.org for delay tolerant networking. sounds like what you are interested in.
Feb 22 01:22:13 <jacquesdupontd> ali1234 jus to explain base of my tought
Feb 22 01:22:52 <jacquesdupontd> that's why i need not to handle all that by myselft :)
Feb 22 01:23:01 <jacquesdupontd> i can't be awaare of everything all the time
Feb 22 01:23:27 <ali1234> well, the delay is less important than the routing, i think
Feb 22 01:24:07 <jacquesdupontd> totally agree
Feb 22 01:24:09 <fnordian900> i've had the DTN2 reference implementation working over bluetooth, tcp/ip with avahi disccovery and over ax25 with ham radio gear. also good for data mules.
Feb 22 01:24:17 <jacquesdupontd> a good routing is the most needed
Feb 22 01:24:38 <jacquesdupontd> bluetooth ?
Feb 22 01:24:48 <ali1234> specifically, selecting a route/peer using your social networking data
Feb 22 01:24:49 <fnordian900> it supports delay tolernt link state routin.
Feb 22 01:25:10 <fnordian900> dtn directly over layer-2 bluetooth
Feb 22 01:25:19 <jacquesdupontd> interesting
Feb 22 01:25:25 <ali1234> i run synergy over bluetooth sockets, it is win :)
Feb 22 01:25:46 <jacquesdupontd> well everybody's got bluetooth now
Feb 22 01:26:03 <fnordian900> ran nicely on N800. not tried on N900 yet.
Feb 22 01:26:09 <jacquesdupontd> i tried
Feb 22 01:26:24 <jacquesdupontd> a friend of mine's got the n900
Feb 22 01:26:39 <jacquesdupontd> that's how i discovered the appreciated maemo
Feb 22 01:27:24 <fnordian900> I'll build it soon for maemo5.
Feb 22 01:27:24 <jacquesdupontd> well we've made some transfert and it was reaching the 100 and more KO/s with a computer
Feb 22 01:27:38 <jacquesdupontd> great
Feb 22 01:27:57 <jacquesdupontd> maemo is surely what i'll try to use if build a little device
Feb 22 01:28:09 <jacquesdupontd> i tried android yesterday
Feb 22 01:28:09 <fnordian900> not meego?
Feb 22 01:28:12 <jacquesdupontd> on a computer
Feb 22 01:28:18 <jacquesdupontd> meego is moblin so yes :)
Feb 22 01:28:25 <jacquesdupontd> i'm already using moblin
Feb 22 01:28:44 <jacquesdupontd> i think thats the best ui for touchable computer for now
Feb 22 01:29:04 <jacquesdupontd> but for my device wich is a real laptop computer based on a sempron, i'm using a debian base
Feb 22 01:29:11 <jacquesdupontd> built with moblin
Feb 22 01:29:37 <ali1234> android is kind of boring without the google sign-on
Feb 22 01:29:43 <jacquesdupontd> but as i told you on smaller devices i would use maemo like meego is going to do
Feb 22 01:29:50 <jacquesdupontd> really boring
Feb 22 01:29:51 <ali1234> no apps, no maps, what's the point?
Feb 22 01:29:53 <jacquesdupontd> i didn't liked it at all
Feb 22 01:29:58 <fnordian900> was running #! on my eee but its ext2 is buggered, so may wipe it and try the first public meego on it
Feb 22 01:30:06 <jacquesdupontd> ok i was on a computer but, not intuitive at all
Feb 22 01:30:34 <jacquesdupontd> the ui is cold
Feb 22 01:31:04 <jacquesdupontd> i tried also chrome os
Feb 22 01:31:18 <ali1234> me too, it's just chrome fullscreen... again, pointless
Feb 22 01:31:36 <jacquesdupontd> same here, the maximised windows that tells you not to look behind is getting me frustrated
Feb 22 01:31:41 <ali1234> i can get the same thing on any computer. the only reason to use it is you are scared of computers :)
Feb 22 01:32:07 <jacquesdupontd> and i can feel the power of google controlling my possibilities
Feb 22 01:32:16 <jacquesdupontd> exact
Feb 22 01:32:56 <jacquesdupontd> evolving deosn't mean goign to have only a browser
Feb 22 01:33:08 <jacquesdupontd> soon you'll have your calculator tht's all
Feb 22 01:33:19 <jacquesdupontd> you'll browse binary numbers
Feb 22 01:33:28 <ali1234> yep. internet connections go down, and i like that it doesn't take my whole OS with it
Feb 22 01:33:43 <jacquesdupontd> the fact is , i want my computer to do THINGS
Feb 22 01:33:57 <ali1234> although i guess html5 has that offline stuff
Feb 22 01:34:03 <jacquesdupontd> TOUCH = PIANO, MUSIC, DESIGN, = need of tools and power
Feb 22 01:34:04 <ali1234> but still, i don't trust it
Feb 22 01:34:20 <jacquesdupontd> doesn't need to be netbooks not able to run 10 internet pages without lagging
Feb 22 01:34:33 <jacquesdupontd> and false 3d ui's with artefact when moving
Feb 22 01:35:37 <jacquesdupontd> that's the mots horrible for me, i prefer a way more a 2d simple UI reacting perfectly than a false 3d one trying to copy some other's seen and lagging as hell (but it works they'll say, look at my beagle board, it's very little)
Feb 22 01:36:13 <jacquesdupontd> the best example i have is the first touching devices of samsung
Feb 22 01:36:33 <jacquesdupontd> i don't know how we can be so big and putting on the market a so bad device
Feb 22 01:36:59 <jacquesdupontd> just to say we are doing touchable devices too
Feb 22 01:37:07 <ali1234> you work for samsung?
Feb 22 01:37:13 <jacquesdupontd> that's why i'm sure we can do better
Feb 22 01:37:29 <jacquesdupontd> no i'm not working for samsung and i'm sure people that work there do agree with me
Feb 22 01:37:37 <jacquesdupontd> they simply doesn't have the time and the choice
Feb 22 01:38:06 <ali1234> your use of "we" implied that you do
Feb 22 01:38:19 <jacquesdupontd> anyway they've said we wont try to have the best device out, we're going to make 10 or 20 smart phones to be on the market and be bought by people that are not really knowing what to choose
Feb 22 01:38:32 <jacquesdupontd> that's a really really bad way of thinking
Feb 22 01:38:42 <jacquesdupontd> at least they should have avoid saying it to me
Feb 22 01:38:53 <LinuxCode> ?
Feb 22 01:38:53 <jacquesdupontd> i mean by internet
Feb 22 01:38:54 <jacquesdupontd> but anyway
Feb 22 01:39:32 <jacquesdupontd> we don't say that like hey guys, we're playing on you're stupidness and the fact you don't have time to check that we are bad people
Feb 22 01:39:39 <LinuxCode> I think many manufacturers are now trying to make devices wearable as watches
Feb 22 01:39:45 <jacquesdupontd> yes
Feb 22 01:39:50 <LinuxCode> or as options, smart internet devices
Feb 22 01:39:59 <jacquesdupontd> they think it's the only way to beat THE iphone
Feb 22 01:40:05 <LinuxCode> ?
Feb 22 01:40:09 <LinuxCode> I have my doubts
Feb 22 01:40:15 <jacquesdupontd> but are they stupid ? just make a way better device
Feb 22 01:40:19 <jacquesdupontd> for sure they all say it
Feb 22 01:40:23 <LinuxCode> as long as the iphone cant do multi-tasking... its crap
Feb 22 01:40:26 <LinuxCode> no flash
Feb 22 01:40:34 <jacquesdupontd> when iphones got out manufacturers tought wow, we have to work now
Feb 22 01:40:36 <ali1234> crap sells, i guess
Feb 22 01:41:20 <microlith> people bash the iphone, but frankly until it came out few people gave a damn about having a smartphone
Feb 22 01:41:32 <microlith> at least in the US
Feb 22 01:41:33 <ali1234> very true
Feb 22 01:41:39 <jacquesdupontd> LinuxCode that's crap for us, advanced user thazt understand easily how that's crap (my iphone is multitask anyway) but for poeple lambda people they just see smooth intuitive working device and think that after all it's a long time they've been searching a working and beautiful device
Feb 22 01:41:44 <jacquesdupontd> that's all they see
Feb 22 01:42:26 <ali1234> people shouldn't get so worked up over the iphone, it isn't reducing the market for alternatives at all. that market was always tiny to begin with.
Feb 22 01:42:44 <ShadowJK> claiming an interface is intuitive automatically makes you a moron imo :)
Feb 22 01:42:50 <ali1234> it's hard to sell linux on people until they've been burned by windows (for example)
Feb 22 01:43:03 <jacquesdupontd> so now either we choose to sell devices to our geek friend that will sell us their device too and we stay alone with our advance in awareness or we take care of people search trying not to fool them at the same time and btw making them understand what means multitask
Feb 22 01:43:09 <eeanm> haha thanks ShadowJK :)
Feb 22 01:43:12 <LinuxCode> ali1234, I dont think people care if it is linux or not
Feb 22 01:43:18 <LinuxCode> as long as it works
Feb 22 01:43:21 <LinuxCode> and works well
Feb 22 01:43:26 <LinuxCode> and they can sync their stuff
Feb 22 01:43:48 <ali1234> LinuxCode: exactly. people won;t care that the iphone is so locked down until it burns them
Feb 22 01:43:59 <jacquesdupontd> market would be FIrst Computer = Mono Task, New Cpu's = Multitask , First Apple devices = multitask , New apple devices = Monotask
Feb 22 01:44:03 <ali1234> if it never does, well then, no problem
Feb 22 01:44:17 <jacquesdupontd> and then people understand apple = stopping evolution of possibilities
Feb 22 01:44:28 <LinuxCode> jacquesdupontd, who cares anyway
Feb 22 01:44:36 <jacquesdupontd> we'll see :)
Feb 22 01:45:04 <jacquesdupontd> i bet and i hope that enought people will care for me to continue to realise toughts
Feb 22 01:46:03 <jacquesdupontd> i can't stay paralised on my couch watching stupid people ruling the world and saying it to everybody without even trying to do something concrete
Feb 22 01:46:14 <eeanm> apple is just repeating the mistake of refusing to let others use their OS.
Feb 22 01:46:15 <eeanm> it's just the 80s over again
Feb 22 01:46:35 <microlith> eeanm: refusing to let others use their OS has been highly effective, apparently
Feb 22 01:46:43 <jacquesdupontd> that's why this is the time to do your stuff guys
Feb 22 01:46:45 <eeanm> not in the long term
Feb 22 01:46:46 <jacquesdupontd> its NOW
Feb 22 01:46:50 <LinuxCode> eeanm, lol
Feb 22 01:46:52 <jacquesdupontd> not tomorow not yesterday but now
Feb 22 01:46:54 <LinuxCode> yes in the long term
Feb 22 01:47:03 <LinuxCode> they have 8% of the pc market now, growing yearly
Feb 22 01:47:17 <LinuxCode> they had less than 3% or so 5 years ago
Feb 22 01:47:23 <jacquesdupontd> we will always start little but things can accelerate in an idea time
Feb 22 01:47:24 <eeanm> wow 8%, only took them 20 years :)
Feb 22 01:47:31 <LinuxCode> eeanm, so ?
Feb 22 01:47:37 <jacquesdupontd> exactly
Feb 22 01:47:38 <LinuxCode> there is more and more competition
Feb 22 01:47:44 <eeanm> microsoft's model is much better. that's what android and meego are doing.
Feb 22 01:47:44 <LinuxCode> not less
Feb 22 01:47:50 <LinuxCode> lol
Feb 22 01:47:53 <ali1234> they have the 8% that is most willing to spend loads and loads of money
Feb 22 01:47:56 <jacquesdupontd> just watch their evolution, it means its possible to everybody now in this society to grow very fast
Feb 22 01:47:59 <LinuxCode> meego came about to save costs
Feb 22 01:48:01 <microlith> eeanm: microsoft's model is built around lock-in and backwards compatibility now
Feb 22 01:48:07 <jacquesdupontd> but you have to go strong directly
Feb 22 01:48:08 <ali1234> would you rather have those 8% or the other 92% who are cheap-ass?
Feb 22 01:48:11 <LinuxCode> and increase developers being interested
Feb 22 01:48:17 <microlith> the -only- reason I'm on windows is games
Feb 22 01:48:24 <eeanm> microlith: compared to apple microsoft is totally open.
Feb 22 01:48:28 <microlith> hahaha
Feb 22 01:48:38 <eeanm> microlith: and I just meant: they allow multiple hardware vendors to use their software
Feb 22 01:48:40 <jacquesdupontd> you have to shake all that
Feb 22 01:48:57 <jacquesdupontd> doing things totally differently that's what they did
Feb 22 01:49:05 <jacquesdupontd> playing on the surprise and then on impatience
Feb 22 01:49:18 <jacquesdupontd> cause you get addicted to be waiting
Feb 22 01:49:37 <LinuxCode> as long as I dont have to run linux on a Jornada 710 anymore Im happy
Feb 22 01:49:55 <LinuxCode> N810 was a huge improvement on that
Feb 22 01:50:02 <ali1234> wow that thing is old...
Feb 22 01:50:03 <LinuxCode> N900 is again an improvement
Feb 22 01:50:11 <LinuxCode> ali1234, but has a 3/4 keybaord
Feb 22 01:50:14 <LinuxCode> ;-p
Feb 22 01:50:19 <LinuxCode> which was quite nice
Feb 22 01:50:29 <ali1234> get a universal?
Feb 22 01:50:36 <LinuxCode> universal ?
Feb 22 01:50:39 <ali1234> not quite as big
Feb 22 01:50:47 <ali1234> but has full linux support i think
Feb 22 01:50:54 <LinuxCode> errm I now have a N810
Feb 22 01:51:01 <LinuxCode> fits in my back pocket
Feb 22 01:51:07 <ali1234> universal has real reversed open drivers :)
Feb 22 01:51:08 <LinuxCode> N900 is next on the shopping list
Feb 22 01:51:18 <jacquesdupontd> i'm really impressed by nokia
Feb 22 01:51:18 <ali1234> none of this binary blob stuff
Feb 22 01:51:26 <jacquesdupontd> i think they're going to make the difference
Feb 22 01:51:28 <eeanm> LinuxCode: once you get a n900 you realize how huge the n810 is :)
Feb 22 01:51:41 <LinuxCode> eeanm, in terms of size ?
Feb 22 01:51:43 <eeanm> yes
Feb 22 01:51:46 <LinuxCode> hehe
Feb 22 01:51:47 <jacquesdupontd> i'm so hoping that maemo won't be hidden by android
Feb 22 01:51:54 <ali1234> n900 is the same size as my old phone
Feb 22 01:51:55 <jacquesdupontd> that would be so stupid
Feb 22 01:51:58 <ali1234> slightly thinner
Feb 22 01:52:02 <LinuxCode> jacquesdupontd, maemo is dead
Feb 22 01:52:08 <LinuxCode> well, pretty much
Feb 22 01:52:16 <Andy80> LinuxCode: Maemo is not dead
Feb 22 01:52:22 <jacquesdupontd> the base is not
Feb 22 01:52:25 <LinuxCode> I knew I would get flak
Feb 22 01:52:27 <LinuxCode> lol
Feb 22 01:52:30 <jacquesdupontd> that doesn't meen meego wont go on
Feb 22 01:52:36 <jacquesdupontd> that just the continuing
Feb 22 01:52:39 <Andy80> LinuxCode: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo, that's all
Feb 22 01:52:45 <jacquesdupontd> 's
Feb 22 01:52:54 <LinuxCode> Andy80, so we will get a upgrade for N900 ?
Feb 22 01:53:02 <jacquesdupontd> seems no
Feb 22 01:53:10 <jacquesdupontd> from what i've heard
Feb 22 01:53:12 <eeanm> meego doesn't change anything for harmattan
Feb 22 01:53:15 <ShadowJK> Meego changes nothing for N900
Feb 22 01:53:20 <jacquesdupontd> they didn't planned to put meego on n900
Feb 22 01:53:25 <Andy80> LinuxCode: you'll have the same applications of Nxxxx, isn't enough for you?
Feb 22 01:53:27 <LinuxCode> haha
Feb 22 01:53:28 <ShadowJK> (and Harmattan has never promised for N900)
Feb 22 01:53:39 <jacquesdupontd> the ui's a lot better sorry
Feb 22 01:53:46 <LinuxCode> Andy80, nope fine
Feb 22 01:53:48 <jacquesdupontd> so yes it's changing things for n900 owners
Feb 22 01:53:50 <eeanm> I bet the community gets harmattan running on the n900 :)
Feb 22 01:54:07 <LinuxCode> but a system that can be flashed onto old devices would be preferred
Feb 22 01:54:38 <eeanm> but anyways fremantle kicks ass, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Feb 22 01:54:53 <jacquesdupontd> LinuxCode if everybody had the same way of thinking, at least that how i see the furtur
Feb 22 01:55:24 <jacquesdupontd> not forgetting old device to have more new devices bought just knowing that they'll be as supported as the one we had before
Feb 22 01:55:27 <jacquesdupontd> as long i mean
Feb 22 01:55:34 <jacquesdupontd> people are not that stupid
Feb 22 01:55:35 <Andy80> and... don't forget that N900 still has to get PR 1.2 upgrade...
Feb 22 01:56:48 <jacquesdupontd> if they see you're fooling them by trying to tell them to already change of device, either they'll change of trademark either they'll continue on yours if they don't have the choice but will be waiting impatiently the time they'll change and say bye bye
Feb 22 01:57:22 <jacquesdupontd> like i'm sure a lot of apple owners wants to see even better compagnies and are ready to change directly but for now they are feeling they don't have choices
Feb 22 01:58:00 <Andy80> jacquesdupontd: I bet they will like harmattan and its device/devices :)
Feb 22 01:58:30 <jacquesdupontd> hehe
Feb 22 01:58:35 <jacquesdupontd> that's a bet
Feb 22 01:59:29 <jacquesdupontd> well i can't wait tomorow to be able to finish my device :)
Feb 22 01:59:38 <jacquesdupontd> i may gonna began the work now
Feb 22 02:03:08 <GeneralAntilles> Andy80, plus PR1.3, and probably a PR2, too.
Feb 22 02:04:22 <Andy80> GeneralAntilles: nice :)
Feb 22 02:04:36 <jacquesdupontd> guys, i wanted to know if it would be possible to make usb panel kit devices with a sensitive touch ?
Feb 22 02:08:04 <jacquesdupontd> btw if you guys have link of way to make a screen a touchscreen , like the wii remote trick and other stuff like that i'm interested in reading this
Feb 22 02:16:52 <ShadowJK> the chinese sell touchscrene overlays for eee pc's :P
Feb 22 02:18:50 <jacquesdupontd> too small
Feb 22 02:18:50 <jacquesdupontd> :)
Feb 22 02:19:09 <jacquesdupontd> i bought a usb panek kit resistive for 15 inch screen
Feb 22 02:19:14 <jacquesdupontd> gonna try it tomorow
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 22 02:59:58 2010