**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 14 02:59:56 2010 Mar 14 05:40:14 yan Mar 14 06:48:05 right Stskeeps looks like it'll be next sunday. Mar 14 06:48:52 alright Mar 14 06:51:35 any time preference there on your side? lbt put his cross for all choices there ... Mar 14 06:51:56 or well, i guess i'll just create a new poll and send that one to the mailing list Mar 14 06:57:23 no time preferences, but not before 10am and before midnight ;) Mar 14 06:57:34 true :D Mar 14 06:57:42 any idea on a rough agenda already? Mar 14 06:58:20 i don't have one at 8am :) Mar 14 06:58:21 it'd be great if we could at least have some official there who's currently involved with packaging to inform us in more detail about the current situation Mar 14 06:58:27 yeah Mar 14 06:58:27 haha me neither :) ok. Mar 14 06:59:07 1. Discuss scope and areas Mar 14 06:59:07 :P Mar 14 06:59:19 and making the proposal into a publish-able one for approval Mar 14 06:59:44 Introduced OBS to Maemo and working on Nokia build infrastructure. << maybe lbt knows about this Mar 14 07:00:17 he put that in his contribution info Mar 14 07:00:20 but yah we'll just see Mar 14 07:01:49 we should try to get anaZ maybe; he is the one who put up the Packaging/Guidelines wiki page Mar 14 07:03:06 on a sidenote, what's your background? Mar 14 07:03:09 (just curious) Mar 14 07:04:28 sent Mar 14 07:04:39 k Mar 14 07:04:45 mine? been packaging rpms for fedora for the past year. Mar 14 07:04:53 cool Mar 14 07:05:11 nothing more actually ;) i wanted to dive into maemo one day before meego was announced :S Mar 14 07:07:48 day zero was a madhouse for me, heh Mar 14 07:07:57 hey keeps finally made it Mar 14 07:08:28 lo tmzt_ Mar 14 07:08:43 obs is hosted or still at opensuse? Mar 14 07:09:06 seperate instance of meego obs, binaries/sources still not out yet though Mar 14 07:09:07 :P Mar 14 07:12:23 I finally have my own internet so I can do more offline building of whatever Mar 14 07:16:07 morning Mar 14 07:16:10 we're basically waiting for day zero when the arm stuff comes out :P Mar 14 07:16:17 morn Mar 14 07:16:20 err, day one Mar 14 07:19:02 ah, day 1 will be arm only? Mar 14 07:19:05 morning markey Mar 14 07:19:54 well no, but the first release Mar 14 07:19:58 would be silly it being arm only Mar 14 07:19:59 :P Mar 14 07:20:28 indeed :D Mar 14 07:21:50 day one will be source i hope Mar 14 07:22:25 that too Mar 14 07:28:55 would you call that spam "We, the Forum Nokia N900 http://www.sygysweb.nl follow developments with interest Meego. (And hoping for results soon)" (on the doodle poll) ;) Mar 14 07:29:13 good question Mar 14 07:29:14 :P Mar 14 07:30:48 especially as that's some flirt-page Mar 14 07:30:48 lol. Mar 14 07:31:53 http://www.sygysweb.nl/n900forum/ ah well Mar 14 07:39:06 hm i want one of those pixel qi screen kits, damn hard to read in this sun light Mar 14 07:40:07 Oh it was in dutch Mar 14 11:59:47 gah still no n900 release in .au - at this rate meego will be out before the n900! Mar 14 12:00:02 lol Mar 14 12:01:21 got n900 and can't wait to get to test meego... and finally broke my phone as I promised to do during the first week I get it Mar 14 12:01:52 goal was to get it into a condition where making a phone call is impossible Mar 14 12:02:30 I've had it already for several months, so what can I say, I fail Mar 14 12:06:13 hopey, sorry, we will make sure you can break your meego device within 7 days of purchase in future Mar 14 12:13:14 maybe I just didn't try hard enough: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36312 Mar 14 12:14:46 hopey, but thats a fun game to play Mar 14 12:14:55 * lcuk has an uber high score on it Mar 14 12:15:23 * CosmoHill looks at the screen shot and blinks Mar 14 12:15:31 I'll try it out Mar 14 12:15:49 lol hopey b careful! Mar 14 12:15:57 2.51m Mar 14 12:15:57 on the stairs. Mar 14 12:15:57 (whole sleeping bag round it) Mar 14 12:16:15 breaking a linux phone where you can get root priviliges is a nobrainer :) Mar 14 12:17:12 MiXu-, i can drive my car into the wall if i want but i try best not to. the same with maemo Mar 14 12:17:25 yep Mar 14 12:17:29 well sure, you can rm -rf * / but... Mar 14 12:17:53 1m is best I dare to do atm Mar 14 12:18:19 i started wrapping my device in sleeping bag after it hit the..ceiling Mar 14 12:18:38 :D Mar 14 12:19:37 oh crap, it's mother's day Mar 14 13:02:47 "Core features dependant on region, carrier and device are simply not good enough for consumers who spend a significant sum of money on a handset. For developers the uncertainty creates design decisions ultimately impacting the user, producing a disjoint experiences" Mar 14 13:03:13 that one is a bit difficult to parse Mar 14 13:04:14 it's actually a rant about android ;) Mar 14 13:04:46 http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/feature/1594673/popularity-killing-android Mar 14 13:06:21 fragmentation vs coherence I guess Mar 14 16:11:58 i hope the logbots don't include join / part messages Mar 14 16:21:52 CosmoHill: Shush, you'll cause a stampede ;-) Mar 14 16:22:30 tuesday: 400 people joined, 420 people left, 7 people said something Mar 14 16:22:45 0 people said something of interest Mar 14 16:23:37 Compared to #meego some weeks ago thats dead-silent Mar 14 16:24:48 yes, I wonder why... Mar 14 16:24:49 :) Mar 14 16:25:32 * CosmoHill is doing his C++ assignment Mar 14 16:25:33 :) Mar 14 16:25:42 not that i should have started this 2 weeks ago Mar 14 16:31:28 andres, no code, little visible activity. Mar 14 16:31:36 aahhhhhhh Mar 14 16:31:42 i deleted main.cpp by accident Mar 14 16:31:43 andres, hard to contribute to a vacuum. Mar 14 16:31:44 aaaahhhhh Mar 14 16:32:13 * Jaffa twiddles his thumbs noisily. Mar 14 16:32:20 shh Mar 14 16:34:02 * Jaffa imagines lbt as the ghostly librarian at the start of Ghostbusters. Mar 14 16:34:09 It's a disturbing thought, TBH ;-) Mar 14 16:36:11 heh Mar 14 16:36:34 * lbt considers making a ghostly cisco vpnclient Mar 14 16:36:52 by kicking the living s**t out of it!! Mar 14 16:36:59 aaaarggh Mar 14 16:37:19 * javispedro hears that tune. yes that tune. Mar 14 16:37:29 now I won't get it out of my head for hours. Mar 14 16:50:35 javispedro: i know why :P Mar 14 16:57:03 how long have you guys been using linux? Mar 14 16:57:16 about 3 hours Mar 14 16:57:25 i like your answer Mar 14 16:57:33 17:57:27 up 10:39, 11 users, load average: 0.15, 0.15, 0.09 Mar 14 16:57:59 16:39:41 up 105 days, 18:48, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Mar 14 16:58:17 i would probably have more if i didn't turn off my laptop at times :P Mar 14 16:58:26 hehe Mar 14 16:58:28 this is my server Mar 14 16:58:46 i need to reboot at some point cos of some kernel changes to the iptables tracker thing Mar 14 17:00:39 * thiago_home has just arrived home from Portland Mar 14 17:01:02 yay Mar 14 17:01:09 Uptime: 2 days, 4 hours and 57 minutes Mar 14 17:01:22 not that long this time 'round, it seems ;) Mar 14 17:01:38 thiago_home: had a good time there? Mar 14 17:02:01 Stskeeps: yes Mar 14 17:02:09 all the way until I started coming home Mar 14 17:02:23 flight from PDX to SFO got delayed, then I got rebooked to the next morning Mar 14 17:02:37 then today I arrive in Frankfurt and they can't find my reservation Mar 14 17:02:55 that sounds a bit nightmare-ish :P Mar 14 17:03:05 yeah Mar 14 17:03:16 called travel agency and had them book me on the first flight out Mar 14 17:03:19 $1000 though Mar 14 17:03:27 business trip though, i assume Mar 14 17:03:31 yup Mar 14 17:03:51 someone is going to foot that bill, because it's not my fault Mar 14 17:05:07 wait, you flew to there, didn't get into your hotel and flew back? Mar 14 17:05:24 I flew to the US, got to the conference, had a very productive time there Mar 14 17:05:30 got to meet mmeeks, for example :-) Mar 14 17:05:51 so he's not a computer in a basement? Mar 14 17:05:57 * mmeeks waves suitably at thiago_home etc. Mar 14 17:06:02 :-) Mar 14 17:06:04 it started to go wrong again when I got to PDX to come home Mar 14 17:06:08 * CosmoHill waves to mmeeks Mar 14 17:06:19 CosmoHill: no Mar 14 17:06:33 or it's a super sophisticated computer that has an avatar Mar 14 17:06:33 :-P Mar 14 17:06:37 heh Mar 14 17:06:49 When will the build for the n900 be ready? aprox. Mar 14 17:06:53 * mmeeks makes some more grisly mistakes to prove his humanity etc. ... Mar 14 17:07:04 SWFu64: there's nothing ready Mar 14 17:07:12 and it's ready when it's ready Mar 14 17:07:17 lol Mar 14 17:07:26 also, it will be out when it's ready Mar 14 17:07:36 SWFu64: there isn't a build, for anything Mar 14 17:07:36 jeez Mar 14 17:07:42 by christmas? Not telling which year though ;-) Mar 14 17:07:43 i don't think there is even a repo yet Mar 14 17:07:44 SWFu64: i would ask if the first release would be appropriate for end-users or if it is more like moblin and you dont really want to use it :D Mar 14 17:07:54 szbalint: I'd hope for something sooner Mar 14 17:07:55 SWFu64: http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one , 'Nokia and Intel have set the target to open the MeeGo repository by the end of this month. I guess this is something that finally will signify the real "Day One" of MeeGo project, a genuine merger of moblin and maemo. What is scheduled to be available then is the first and very raw baseline to a source and binary repository to build MeeGo trunk on Intel ... Mar 14 17:07:59 we're working towards something sooner Mar 14 17:08:01 ... ATOM boards and Nokia N900.' Mar 14 17:08:02 szbalint: you sound like the release guy for grand turismo Mar 14 17:08:10 sorry, just the standing joke from the Perl 6 community... Mar 14 17:08:26 szbalint: like Duke Nukem Forever? Mar 14 17:08:31 "in two weeks" Mar 14 17:09:11 * SWFu64 shoot me down Mar 14 17:11:15 I love the fact I ask a simple question yet get a simple answer 1:1, just wondering guys. Mar 14 17:11:41 you got the exact info that's public :P Mar 14 17:12:58 but i want to know whats not public :P Mar 14 17:13:06 so I'm trying to see if there's ever going to be any hope for a modern soc that can be fully supported in qemu in a non devboard design Mar 14 17:13:19 tmzt_: n8x0 was actually supposed Mar 14 17:13:25 summel, how much are you willing to pay for that ? :D Mar 14 17:13:27 yeah, just saw that Mar 14 17:13:33 but I don't want nand just yet Mar 14 17:13:45 VDVsx: :O Mar 14 17:13:57 summel: you're assuming you'll want to hear what's not public Mar 14 17:13:58 summel: previously unreleased estimate: it will be ready in 15 days 6 hours and 3 minutes Mar 14 17:14:11 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2008/04/11/nokia-n800-emulation/ Mar 14 17:14:11 i dont like to pay. thats why i use linux :P and why i dont like the ovi store :P Mar 14 17:14:12 .5 Mar 14 17:14:22 found that looking for usb client support, I don't want to use ethernet Mar 14 17:14:23 lbt: thx :D Mar 14 17:14:28 * lbt checks with his cat and revises estimate since she wants more biscuits... Mar 14 17:14:51 I'm not sure where she gets her info though... Mar 14 17:15:13 well... so i can sue you and your cat if the info is wrong :D Mar 14 17:15:23 you can sue my cat Mar 14 17:15:38 you gave her biscuits! :O Mar 14 17:15:45 warning though ... she's an assassin cat... Mar 14 17:15:54 :P Mar 14 17:16:20 summel, , careful with that, heard that cats can get layers in Switzerland Mar 14 17:16:29 I think lbt's cat is from there :D Mar 14 17:16:38 layers? Mar 14 17:16:46 Swiss biscuits are the best Mar 14 17:16:48 cat solicitors Mar 14 17:16:50 like satelite and maps? :P Mar 14 17:17:10 google cat maps Mar 14 17:17:16 err, * lawyers Mar 14 17:17:21 xD Mar 14 17:18:24 ah, so n800 is not upstream? Mar 14 17:18:49 right Mar 14 21:42:34 hi is the meego messenger open source? Mar 14 21:42:57 hello is the meego messenger open source? Mar 14 21:43:37 what meego messenger? Mar 14 21:43:49 and you don't need to repeat your questions Mar 14 21:44:15 nokia develops one Mar 14 21:44:29 I don't see one Mar 14 21:44:49 http://sf.net/projects/meegomessenger is another one Mar 14 21:45:09 there's no official meego code released yet Mar 14 21:45:40 Maemo uses a Telepathy-based instant-messaging client Mar 14 21:45:55 for meego or for messenger, yes telepathy, but will it be open? Mar 14 21:46:04 Kate is working on it Mar 14 21:46:35 want to ask, to make a common project with sf.net project Mar 14 21:46:54 i bloody well hope not Mar 14 21:46:58 sf.net is horrible :P Mar 14 21:47:28 meegomessenger already? O.o Mar 14 21:47:30 and more seriously, if you can wait just a liiiittle bit longer... you know, until there's code released... basically what VDVsx said ;) Mar 14 21:47:34 Guest45046: all of MeeGo's base distribution and reference apps will be open source Mar 14 21:47:37 ALL of it Mar 14 21:47:47 so anything you find in meego.com will be open source Mar 14 21:47:58 ok cool, then maybe we can add retroshare.sf.net to meegomessenger from nokia Mar 14 21:48:13 either in gui or in telepathy Mar 14 21:48:19 Telepathy Mar 14 21:48:21 start doing it now Mar 14 21:48:34 is someone working on/with telepathy to get retroshare.sf.net in? Mar 14 21:48:36 with Qt Mar 14 21:48:40 you? Mar 14 21:48:41 * VDVsx hides Mar 14 21:48:58 I have never heard of retroshare Mar 14 21:49:18 if you want to ask if someone is working on retroshare support for Telepathy, you should ask retroshare developers and Telepathy developers Mar 14 21:49:21 not us Mar 14 21:49:51 true Mar 14 21:50:10 perhaps there's a #telepathy channel Mar 14 21:50:12 but as no one acts, we make the mobile retroshare messenger called meegomessenger.sf.net Mar 14 21:50:50 * thiago_home doubts MeeGo Messenger will exist as such Mar 14 21:51:01 are there any news from intel about the poulsbo graphicsdriver? Mar 14 21:51:06 it will be a thin UI wrapper around Telepathy and Qt Mobility Messaging Mar 14 21:51:18 wxwidgets... that's an "interesting" choice for a meego app ;) Mar 14 21:51:20 yes and why not serverless retroshare? Mar 14 21:51:21 and the UI may vary according to vertical Mar 14 21:51:24 the old one is outdated and doesn'T work Mar 14 21:51:36 serverless = Telepathy Mar 14 21:51:40 that is old webpage from retromessenger.sf.net which is the wx gui for libretroshare Mar 14 21:52:10 first step: make it work with Telepathy Mar 14 21:52:20 second step: analyse what MeeGo will have for IM UI Mar 14 21:52:30 second step is not possible yet Mar 14 21:52:43 So, back to step 1 Mar 14 21:52:47 rinse and repeat ;) Mar 14 21:53:23 because step zero was "wait" as leinir said... Mar 14 21:53:42 my point is, that making a messenger is in our eys not only adding 1+1 telepathy and qt Mar 14 21:53:44 there is no step zero Mar 14 21:53:47 start in step one Mar 14 21:54:00 but it needs a post merger phase as well, and here added value is encrypted serverless chat Mar 14 21:54:10 so please either invest in libretroshare in telepathy Mar 14 21:54:20 or we have a second messenger for secure chat Mar 14 21:54:21 yes, please invest in Telepathy Mar 14 21:54:25 we are open for integration Mar 14 21:54:26 why don't you do it? Mar 14 21:54:30 i am not a coder Mar 14 21:54:40 then have someone do it Mar 14 21:54:40 http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2008-September/002248.html Mar 14 21:55:27 what is that outdated? Mar 14 21:55:38 3 years old Mar 14 21:55:52 well the basics have not changed much... Mar 14 21:56:12 wrong , libretroshare is based on gnupg Mar 14 21:56:22 both maemo and moblin have been using telepathy as the backend for their respective chat applications Mar 14 21:56:39 cool Mar 14 21:56:47 libretroshare is still missing, Mar 14 21:56:51 yes Mar 14 21:56:54 that is the point for telepathy Mar 14 21:56:54 so you make it happen Mar 14 21:57:02 make Telepathy and retroshare work together Mar 14 21:59:00 that is the right direction, but if there is no one interested, we need to see where the sf.net project goes Mar 14 22:00:05 rawr Mar 14 22:00:07 I don't think it will go anywhere Mar 14 22:00:23 ... I really don't follow this discussion :) Mar 14 22:00:25 that's why I am saying you should investigate now enabling Telepathy to use retroshare Mar 14 22:01:17 as javispedro quoted a mail, there has somone already in 2008 requested this Mar 14 22:01:25 request is not enough Mar 14 22:01:28 someone has to do it Mar 14 22:01:38 who? Mar 14 22:01:42 you tell me Mar 14 22:01:44 you're the one interested Mar 14 22:01:48 I'm not interested Mar 14 22:01:55 why not? Mar 14 22:02:06 I had never heard of retroshare until you mentioned it Mar 14 22:02:16 dont we need encrypted chat over mobile? Mar 14 22:02:24 then test it Mar 14 22:02:26 skype works well enough for me Mar 14 22:02:26 i don't Mar 14 22:02:37 me neither :) Mar 14 22:02:41 xmpp is also "encrypted" if you trust your server. Mar 14 22:03:29 anyway, this is open source Mar 14 22:03:44 if you want to see something done, either you do it, or you convince someone to do it Mar 14 22:03:52 xD Mar 14 22:04:04 or continue waiting to see if someone gets convinced and does it Mar 14 22:04:11 yes Mar 14 22:04:25 Telepathy is definitely the best layer to integrate this with MeeGo Mar 14 22:04:42 Robot101: Not just MeeGo, but yes Mar 14 22:04:46 if traffic is encrypted, a server is a waste Mar 14 22:04:51 we're working on end-to-end encryption in XMPP already Mar 14 22:05:04 you still need to send data somewhere Mar 14 22:05:20 end to end is not secure, as you add the key over the same line Mar 14 22:05:29 that has nothing to do with whether it's encrypted or not Mar 14 22:05:30 uh? Mar 14 22:05:32 what?! Mar 14 22:05:37 if you're doing broadcasting of data, like presence, not using a server is a waste :) Mar 14 22:05:40 * thiago_home joins the chorus: excuse me? Mar 14 22:06:26 I think we are not understanding each other when you say "server" Mar 14 22:06:40 but that might be because we are _not_ Telepathy developers nor retroshare ones Mar 14 22:06:44 (well, most of us) Mar 14 22:06:49 Robot101: is there any kind of end to end encryption standard in xmpp? Mar 14 22:06:51 you're talking to the wrong crowd Mar 14 22:07:18 You need to be in #telepathy or #retroshare (i guess) Mar 14 22:07:53 since this really has very little to do with MeeGo, other than an eventual package of the library and telepathy plugin Mar 14 22:08:04 but it needs a post merger phase as well, and here added value is encrypted serverless chat Mar 14 22:08:17 javispedro: not agreed on, it's stalled because they wrote their own standard from scratch and nobody implemented it because there wasn't any proof it was secure, and now it's split between people (like the Telepathy developers) who want to use TLS for the end to end stuff, versus annoying web people who want to use some crappy per-message encryption they can implement in javascript Mar 14 22:08:39 Guest45046: sorry, it's Telepathy integration, pure and simple. Mar 14 22:09:10 Robot101: ah well :( Mar 14 22:09:39 Robot101: TLS with X.509? Mar 14 22:10:31 thiago_home: deployment specific, so yes, or you just use ad-hoc session keys and then you separately do a negotiation to perform the channel binding step and decide you're talking to the right person Mar 14 22:10:49 * thiago_home would have preferred GnuPG keys Mar 14 22:11:20 I already have the trust set for my friends :-) Mar 14 22:12:54 anyway, encrypting is easy Mar 14 22:13:01 the problem is authentification and identification Mar 14 22:13:18 you can't do all over the same channel Mar 14 22:13:29 you need some out-of-band verification of the identity Mar 14 22:14:03 right Mar 14 22:14:26 although leap of faith is better than nothing, most people (even geeks) don't check ssh host certificates Mar 14 22:14:44 well, that's because they're trusting the network Mar 14 22:14:49 and, when you get outside of geeks, people trust skype is secure and nobody has any idea how it's key management works or what it actually encrypts Mar 14 22:14:51 there's your out-of-band verification there Mar 14 22:15:21 either you design the system for paranoids, or you design the system for mass wild usage .. Mar 14 22:15:40 but in this age (of security practices) designing a system for both is impossible. Mar 14 22:15:54 when I worked for Accenture, in 2005, they rolled out an encryption layer on top of MSN Messenger Mar 14 22:16:23 when you started talking to a new contact with new keys, you'd get a notice asking you to verify Mar 14 22:16:34 most people do the "get me the hell away from here" solution though Mar 14 22:17:09 so you did something ala openssh big warning.. Mar 14 22:17:25 but for the company's objectives, it was probably working: you're likely to start chatting with your buddies while in the office Mar 14 22:17:40 when you're outside, you have their keys already Mar 14 22:18:35 that means your chat isn't readable by passersby in the café or by the IT admins at the client company you're working on Mar 14 22:24:25 yes, that is the goal of retroshare / libretroshare, keep the bypassers out Mar 14 22:24:33 so it is ideal for companies etxc Mar 14 22:25:24 good night Mar 15 00:46:58 night night **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Mar 15 02:59:56 2010