**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 21 02:59:57 2010 Mar 21 07:59:34 Hi guys, do you know anybody in the room who can help me signing one symbian application .....ready to donate some money.........urgent :) ...thanks....Please PM me Mar 21 08:00:39 it's a meego (maemo and moblin) channel, we're not really symbian (thank god) Mar 21 08:00:40 :P Mar 21 08:01:43 moo Sts Mar 21 08:02:03 any channel u can suggest please ? Mar 21 08:07:27 https://www.symbiansigned.com/app/page ? :P Mar 21 08:08:12 Stskeeps <-- excersies applied sadism =) Mar 21 11:37:05 * CosmoHill wonders why he tends to end up holding his pen like a ciggy Mar 21 11:37:55 CosmoHill, thats not a problem unless you actually light it Mar 21 11:38:04 the is a very good point Mar 21 11:39:12 it's taken me an hour to find out the price of some software Mar 21 11:39:34 and even then i've gone "screw it, I'll just write this down and say it works" Mar 21 11:43:00 i don't like this assignment Mar 21 11:43:19 too much of it is based on pulling figures out of your arse Mar 21 11:43:53 i see you are on the microsoft site then Mar 21 11:44:22 ? Mar 21 11:44:47 once tried finding prices for things there and had similar run around Mar 21 11:44:51 i have to make up things for costs, how long things will take and what has to be done to make software Mar 21 11:45:29 first booking software company i went to i was like "however much you paid for your website, it was too much" Mar 21 13:02:34 http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=1553&d=1101919373 Mar 21 13:02:35 lol Mar 21 13:02:37 my old desktop Mar 21 13:07:52 CosmoHill, i had something similar Mar 21 13:08:28 the first PC that was bought for me as my birthday present Mar 21 13:08:38 i only wanted speakers :o Mar 21 13:12:24 * CosmoHill nips out on his bike Mar 21 13:25:02 :D Mar 21 13:27:26 CosmoHill: that looks very dangerous for your neck if youre sitting before it for a longer time Mar 21 13:28:03 * CosmoHill watches a joke fly over his head Mar 21 13:53:33 I can't think of a worse desk setup, ergonomics wise :) Mar 21 13:58:54 MiXu-: it was many moons ago Mar 21 13:59:13 Yeah, I figured :) Mar 21 13:59:42 http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/audio-work.jpg Mar 21 13:59:47 there's a newish pic Mar 21 14:00:02 I had a similar setup at one point. My head refused to turn right after a while, so I changed it :D Mar 21 14:00:21 i've had that issue Mar 21 14:00:30 I started moving up and down the desk on my chair Mar 21 14:05:00 CosmoHill, i find having a pair of monitors above each other makes sense Mar 21 14:05:14 ive got my laptop and then a big screen above it Mar 21 14:05:20 works better for me than side to side Mar 21 14:16:26 on windows you can press win + p to change monitor settings like you would on a laptop Mar 21 14:16:36 so I use that to enable and disable the 2nd monitor on my desktop Mar 21 14:16:51 cos i hate it when i open a problem and then have to turn the 2nd montior on to drag it over Mar 21 15:06:05 haha, CosmoHill, i have a similar setup although the second monitor is no umm 20" dell one but just some 17" connected to a dell desktop ;) Mar 21 16:08:11 Stskeeps: i'm just writing some stuff at the same time, so my answered might be slightly delayed :) Mar 21 16:08:16 :nod: Mar 21 16:09:11 so, i think first goal should be to get the proposal into a form acceptable similar to what quim described Mar 21 16:10:42 and to get it tabled for not the first but the next TSG meeting Mar 21 16:11:15 i think i haven't read that mail yet, let me check Mar 21 16:11:15 i swear people continue conversations as if there wasn't a huge gap in it Mar 21 16:12:03 th0br0: Re: [Meego-community] First TSG meeting this Friday @ 20h UTC , Quim Gil, 'We have included in the agenda the working group proposals that have a' Mar 21 16:12:19 ok lemme check Mar 21 16:12:41 -dev ? Mar 21 16:13:26 community Mar 21 16:14:34 ah yeah found it Mar 21 16:15:45 CosmoHill, sure they do Mar 21 16:15:47 how i personally see the repository working group is a orthogonal working group which helps define policy, aid packaging, etc Mar 21 16:15:57 yay, i wasn't ignored Mar 21 16:16:13 mh ok. Mar 21 16:16:22 Stskeeps: yep me too. Mar 21 16:16:32 also administration of the community repo imho Mar 21 16:16:35 yeah Mar 21 16:16:55 and as already listed in that one other meeting log with the preliminary roles stuff, taking care of some OBS aspects. Mar 21 16:16:58 yeah Mar 21 16:17:25 but yep, we are not immediately necessary for MeeGo to get started. Mar 21 16:17:38 :nod: Mar 21 16:17:42 hence the second meeting Mar 21 16:17:51 Stskeeps: can you please lodge a formal complaint for me? Mar 21 16:17:59 friday is a totally unfair day for meetings Mar 21 16:18:04 timeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday Mar 21 16:18:05 timeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday Mar 21 16:18:09 Stskeeps: lol Mar 21 16:22:09 mh, my 2 ntfs partitions are seriously fried ... damn it :D Mar 21 16:22:39 th0br0: so, maybe for the agenda tonight: 1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal Mar 21 16:23:02 don't forget 0) introduction to the current build system etc by anaZ should he manage to be around tonite Mar 21 16:23:04 :nod: Mar 21 16:23:23 he has written the existing packaging guidelines as well, so that'd be worthwhile Mar 21 16:23:26 yep. Mar 21 16:23:37 but yeah, i think that's what we should be aiming at. Mar 21 16:23:54 the goal is basically to have a packaging policy that benefits instead of cripples :P Mar 21 16:23:58 :P Mar 21 16:24:00 or something Mar 21 16:24:12 well, i think that any change in the packaging policy will be difficult to push through ;) Mar 21 16:24:15 Stskeeps: tonight? Mar 21 16:24:19 * timeless_mbp gets confused about days Mar 21 16:24:20 heffer: btw, nice to see you around here, too ;) Mar 21 16:24:22 timeless_mbp: yep Mar 21 16:24:24 hmm, wtf happened there Mar 21 16:24:28 what time? Mar 21 16:24:31 CosmoHill: you ping timed out Mar 21 16:24:32 timeless_mbp: 20:00 UTC Mar 21 16:24:33 timeless_mbp: 20:00 TUC Mar 21 16:24:35 *UTC Mar 21 16:24:35 http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group Mar 21 16:24:47 th0br0: but only on this server Mar 21 16:24:54 CosmoHill: happens from time to time Mar 21 16:25:04 another server almost timed out and the 3rd on unaffected Mar 21 16:25:25 th0br0, :D Mar 21 16:25:26 Stskeeps: can you convert that to localtime for me? :) Mar 21 16:25:33 timeless_mbp: 10pm hel-time Mar 21 16:25:33 timeless_mbp: what localtime? Mar 21 16:25:38 thanks Mar 21 16:25:41 ^^ Mar 21 16:25:42 th0br0: mine ;-) Mar 21 16:25:50 forgot that you're in helsinki Mar 21 16:26:00 i'll be in stockholm this friday Mar 21 16:26:03 ah cool. Mar 21 16:26:06 but people know i'm generally in hel Mar 21 16:26:20 btw, if people know people in stockholm, or happen to be there, please lemme know before i go Mar 21 16:27:48 but that wepad thingy sounds awesome ;) Mar 21 16:27:55 s/sounds/sounds\/looks/ Mar 21 16:27:56 s/sounds/sounds\/looks/g Mar 21 16:28:01 mh, no infobot huh? Mar 21 16:28:35 :o Mar 21 16:28:38 everyone, hide! Mar 21 16:28:48 why so? Mar 21 16:31:11 th0br0: will you want to moderate? you seem to have a good overview as well Mar 21 16:31:22 can do. Mar 21 16:31:24 oki Mar 21 16:31:32 brb Mar 21 16:32:08 if I dev for Maemo now, should it work on MeeGo when it comes out? I hate the idea of accepting the maemo sdk EULA though, will MeeGo be completely free? Should I use QT or clutter instead? I'd like to start working right about now. Mar 21 16:32:55 paxcoder: Qt is the way to go Mar 21 16:33:50 MeeGo is completely free Mar 21 16:34:14 yes! Mar 21 16:35:08 any tips on how to dev for mobiles accept "use big buttons"? Mar 21 16:36:01 i'd like to create a mockup actually Mar 21 16:37:00 ? Mar 21 16:37:56 i need to construct an interface to present the basic idea, and so if some people approve, i make it. Mar 21 16:38:14 not following you... Mar 21 16:38:27 i'd like to follow some (de-facto) standards though. Mar 21 16:38:59 still not following you... Mar 21 16:39:00 you put the buttons, and chose the colors, and then make a screenshot, and say pushing this will do that. and then they say: cool, do that. Mar 21 16:39:25 thiago_home: meego hw adaptation being completely free is a bit doubtful, but yes, we can work towards it Mar 21 16:39:35 yes Mar 21 16:39:57 Stskeeps: maemo troll :-P Mar 21 16:40:16 i see how you "worked towards it" so far Mar 21 16:40:38 paxcoder: i did Mer for a year, bit evil to call me a troll over that Mar 21 16:40:48 if the HW maker doesn't provide open drivers, you have two choices: Mar 21 16:40:54 don't use the hardware, or use the closed driver Mar 21 16:40:59 * Stskeeps does know his stuff and why meego is a good thing in terms of open systems. Mar 21 16:41:00 (while you develop the open one, if you can) Mar 21 16:42:00 actually, i wouldn't mind having multiple repos (like Debian) so if people want to use proprietary software, fine - won't get us anywhere but fine. I'd use the crappier and more free version though. Mar 21 16:42:16 I think it will get us somewhere Mar 21 16:42:19 like on hardware Mar 21 16:42:23 and you'd be welcome to, but in some cases, it wouldn't be feasible to avoid the blobs in short term :) Mar 21 16:42:38 battery management being one Mar 21 16:42:40 Stskeeps: well now you know why i was rude Mar 21 16:42:49 GL drivers being another Mar 21 16:43:23 or perhaps maemo should go that way, and we another Mar 21 16:43:39 and perhaps choose the phones accordingly. Mar 21 16:43:55 paxcoder: meego's going the sane direction - fully open core system, hardware adaptation may be closed (buy the phones it's not closed on) and differentiation apps Mar 21 16:43:56 "we" ? Mar 21 16:44:05 thiago_home: MeeGo Mar 21 16:44:13 there is no more Maemo Mar 21 16:44:15 it's all MeeGo Mar 21 16:44:26 anyway, MeeGo will have a fully open core Mar 21 16:44:35 Stskeeps: wth is "fully opencore" -huh? Mar 21 16:44:37 with extra repos for what can't be open, and you use it if you want Mar 21 16:44:46 paxcoder: the thing all devices share Mar 21 16:44:47 if you don't want to, it's your choice Mar 21 16:44:57 base system, UI toolki, etc Mar 21 16:44:58 t Mar 21 16:45:08 what developers build towards Mar 21 16:45:19 thiago_home: no, ppl should be able to chose whether they want the blobs at all or not. Mar 21 16:45:23 plus differentiation overlays. Mar 21 16:45:24 they are Mar 21 16:45:32 don't use the blobs if you don't want to Mar 21 16:45:48 well i intend not to. just don't put it in everybody's soup Mar 21 16:46:03 base system probably won't rely on any closed source stuff Mar 21 16:46:10 it's harder to pluck out. Mar 21 16:46:11 hardware adaptation is something different Mar 21 16:46:22 Stskeeps: you mean like vendors? Mar 21 16:46:46 ok, so, we all agree that meego (the APIs, the qt stuff, the base system and kernel) is open source Mar 21 16:47:03 to run on a system you mix it with a hardware adaptation which may be more or less open source Mar 21 16:47:19 who is "you" in that sentence? Mar 21 16:47:23 the core MeeGo will be fully open. You can get all of it. Mar 21 16:47:37 now, if that will run on the hardware you have on your hands, that's your problem. Mar 21 16:48:19 paxcoder: joe b coder Mar 21 16:48:32 ah, he can do what he wants. Mar 21 16:49:31 as long as i can change the preinstalled system for the free version, i'm happy Mar 21 16:49:45 at possible loss of functionality of the hardware, probably Mar 21 16:49:58 yeah, that's my decision. Mar 21 16:50:07 then you should be fine, i think Mar 21 16:50:16 provided the device is open* (as in able to replace kernel and rootfs) Mar 21 16:50:38 wait Mar 21 16:50:42 you're now talking about hardware Mar 21 16:50:54 you can get the MeeGo repositories and all the software Mar 21 16:50:59 Stskeeps: right. it's version 2 of the gpl. too bad but unavoidable (since it's linux) Mar 21 16:51:05 hardware, however, doesn't come over the Internet Mar 21 16:51:23 if you want to replace, make sure you buy from a company that allows replacing. Mar 21 16:51:44 Stskeeps: N900's system can be changed, right? Mar 21 16:51:59 yes Mar 21 16:52:02 it can be Mar 21 16:52:11 it's a deal then ;-) Mar 21 16:52:22 even though the part of it that allows the replacing (the bootloader) isn't open Mar 21 16:52:23 * VDVsx facepalms at -dev Mar 21 16:53:20 thiago_home: is bootloader hardcoded firmwhare or what? Mar 21 16:53:24 *ware Mar 21 16:54:28 no, just not open. it allows usb flashing and loads unsigned zinages from a flash area Mar 21 16:54:41 zimages Mar 21 16:55:07 strange Mar 21 16:55:16 paxcoder: it's not open because it contains some nokia-private stuff i guess Mar 21 16:55:32 it's like the sbl you got for all those HTC devices... Mar 21 16:56:02 paxcoder: but all things considered, loading a zimage is good enough for me Mar 21 16:57:07 wait, i don't get it Mar 21 16:57:37 mm? Mar 21 16:58:21 so you can't flash the loader, you can just add a new zimage? Mar 21 16:59:19 you can flash a new loader if you want but you will shoot yourself in the foot doing it, as your device most likely will be fully bricked Mar 21 16:59:47 the closed loader ensures you can always reflash new zimage, rootfs Mar 21 17:00:27 is this because i don't know how a loader should look like, or because there's some kind of DRM implemented that prevents me to modify it? Mar 21 17:00:32 *from modifying Mar 21 17:00:59 about the latter, i don't actually know. first one is likely Mar 21 17:01:30 noone actually tried since noone likes a dead device Mar 21 17:01:41 and we didnt have a need to replace it Mar 21 17:01:51 ah, it'll happen. Mar 21 17:02:10 it's prolly because they don't know how to write a replacement Mar 21 17:03:12 i'm happy as i can experiment quite deepily with my device and always restore it Mar 21 17:03:21 and zimage loading is fine for me Mar 21 17:03:57 well, i don't exactly run Coreboot on my machine either. but still... Mar 21 17:04:19 :nod: Mar 21 17:05:40 you will need some blobs to have a basic os on n900, sadly Mar 21 17:06:29 how come? Mar 21 17:06:34 *which ones? Mar 21 17:14:38 see you around Mar 21 17:41:11 Stskeeps: about working groups in general, I would recomend you to hold on a bit on the formal side (getting a working group approved) Mar 21 17:41:16 for two reasons Mar 21 17:41:42 one because the priority will go for the working groups covering the different UXs / industries: handset, netbook, etc Mar 21 17:42:05 qgil: yeah, we are in preperation phases Mar 21 17:42:22 two because the definition of a "working group" is going to be hardened, and maybe several of the current proposals won't end up in the form of a working group Mar 21 17:42:30 but something more specialized reporting to a working group Mar 21 17:42:46 the TSG needs to have a sane amount of direct intefaces to deal with Mar 21 17:42:52 :nod: would be good to have the definition of such more public Mar 21 17:43:08 right now we are informally gathering, which is first start Mar 21 17:43:18 Stskeeps: sure, it's not that a detailed definition exists already and is not public :) Mar 21 17:43:57 Stskeeps: specially in the case of the deb working group getting organized without waiting for blessing is anyway a good idea Mar 21 17:44:45 something we all need to address here is how to get turbo speed in two areas that many times fight each other: industry / community Mar 21 17:45:13 we can find many examples of industry success and community success, but both at the same time is damn hard Mar 21 17:46:07 this is why the TSG will concentrate first to guarantee industry success, but it is obvious that we won't go too far either if this implies a failure (or crickets, as you put it) in community terms Mar 21 17:46:58 on the other hand, if we concentrate on all the community needs this is going to be lovely and everything, but without industrial success the companies behind will pull the plug, if the own cutting edge developers haven't done it before Mar 21 17:47:36 all these are thoughts around the deb packaging working group proposal: Mar 21 17:47:53 (we are talking about the repository working group one, not deb one right?) Mar 21 17:48:00 not required for industrial success (being consistent with one and only one packaging system is more effective than spreading efforts) Mar 21 17:48:13 :nod: Mar 21 17:48:27 but if there is a clear community push for that it is good that this energy is accommodated around the projects, rather than loosing it Mar 21 17:49:40 i see repository wg as bringing together the people who are into packaging policy and serve as a orthogonal function in the project to help with packaging, qa process, documentation, etc Mar 21 17:49:52 the 'repository working group' probably should end up not as a group reporting directly to the TSG but as a team within the program office, release team or whatever ends up being the name, don't you think? Mar 21 17:49:59 probably yes Mar 21 17:50:23 either way, we don't have those structures (yet), so for most things, we're a group trying to find itself Mar 21 17:50:40 I mean, there are many topics that are key, but they need to be organized within the right context Mar 21 17:50:56 Stskeeps: sure, I know perfectly well what you mean :) Mar 21 17:51:18 :nod: Mar 21 17:51:25 i think this is also what we are going to talk about tonight Mar 21 17:51:42 I'll try to be there Mar 21 17:51:48 it may be a WG beneath a WG, but either way, we need to discuss what we are contributing with Mar 21 17:52:24 yes, like in many topics there is no need to wait for official appointments in order to start discussing and creating critical mass Mar 21 17:52:49 of course - hence us starting work and not asking it to be tabled at first TSG meeting :) Mar 21 17:54:05 qgil: there is red hat / fedora for industry / community success ;) Mar 21 17:55:17 th0br0: yes, what do you think are the keys of their success? Mar 21 17:55:41 (if we can apply them beyond the server IT to the mobile industry all the better) Mar 21 17:56:37 mmh. Mar 21 17:56:48 that is a good question... Mar 21 17:56:55 i think one reason for the community success is the governance model Mar 21 17:57:15 let me see whether i can find a vid of the speech max gave at fosdem 2k10 Mar 21 17:57:17 th0br0: I see at least two extra spins MeeGo should do even if achieving all what RedHat / Fedore achieved Mar 21 17:57:38 one is producing something compelling to end users at large Mar 21 17:58:23 I mean, RedHat / Fedora have one part of business for servers, and then another part for workstations, but none of them are really products for regular consumers Mar 21 17:58:38 Fedora is getting there though. Mar 21 17:58:43 * RST38h speaking to nobody in particular, suggests concentrating on concrete things rather than community governance problems Mar 21 17:59:07 http://video.fosdem.org/2010/devrooms/distributions/Fedora_Governance.ogv << that's the video just for reference Mar 21 17:59:08 RST38h: true Mar 21 17:59:11 RST38h, what do you suggest as the first concrete things? Mar 21 17:59:16 (making Maemo community services like Extras work properly may be a nice first step =)) Mar 21 17:59:39 another extra problem is that RedHat / Fedora grew on top of the Intel/PC era of commoditization, while we have to deal with plenty of innovation and radical changes in the mobile field Mar 21 17:59:44 true. Mar 21 17:59:51 but yeah... mmh. Mar 21 17:59:55 (making Maemo firmware updates work like they do with any NORMAL Linux may be a good second step) Mar 21 17:59:58 RST38h, I think you're in the wrong channel, then. :-) Mar 21 18:00:11 qgil: i'm assuming the general structures of the project will be presented wednesday? Mar 21 18:00:37 Terje: Oh, I am sure Meego will hit exactly the same set of issues. So, resolving them in the existing system may well be a good initial step Mar 21 18:00:52 RST38h: I keep insisting that "normal" Linux is "x86 Linux" since the ARM camp is anything but "normal" these years ;) Mar 21 18:01:01 qgil: i think that sth like LTS releases should be used for meego. Mar 21 18:01:20 don't forget about x86_64 tho, unless you count that as part of x86, too Mar 21 18:01:23 Stskeeps: no idea, really Mar 21 18:01:25 Terje: But, as far as Meego is concerned, I would say talk.meego.com, base system in an open version control system, and documentation will be the top priorities now Mar 21 18:01:26 qgil: alright Mar 21 18:01:45 qgil: Regular updates to individual system packages have nothing to do with architecture Mar 21 18:01:48 th0br0: yest LTS on ARM architecture is a noble goal that I hope MeeGo can offer, even if nobody I'm aware of has done such thing before Mar 21 18:01:58 yup. Mar 21 18:02:03 qgil: (as opposed to huge updates that take months to arrive) Mar 21 18:02:04 RST38h, good goals. Mar 21 18:02:18 well, it is an utmost requirement for the industry anyway Mar 21 18:02:34 RST38h: talk is coming, there is even a link to test somewhere Mar 21 18:02:53 qgil: And of course, there is such a thing as prioritization. If 100+ users repeatedly scream "it is broken", any PR person will tell you what to do in a split second Mar 21 18:03:04 RST38h: base system is also coming, that is the first code release with a documented target architecture Mar 21 18:03:31 RST38h: that's what i'd say such LTS releases are for. Mar 21 18:03:32 qgil, "documented target architecture?" Mar 21 18:03:41 in the end, QA for these LTS releases should be a separate WG imho Mar 21 18:03:42 qgil: Well with those two accounted for, the remaining one is the documentation Mar 21 18:03:54 unless that is taken care of by the industry/nokia/intel Mar 21 18:03:58 RST38h: documentation also coming... probably with a bit of lag Mar 21 18:03:58 qgil: Something like maemo.org docs/reference page, just better organized would be cool Mar 21 18:04:02 th0br0: i think there'll be a release team probably Mar 21 18:04:07 yeah Stskeeps Mar 21 18:04:11 th0br0: which would take care of those things Mar 21 18:04:36 Terje1: well, I expect the MeeGo project to have a some point a detailed architecture diagram showing what are we aiming to put together :) Mar 21 18:05:29 qgil, ok, I thought you knew something that I didn't. :-) Mar 21 18:05:30 qgil: btw, will there be community seats on the TSG? Mar 21 18:05:42 Terje1: that is not a goal in my career ;) Mar 21 18:06:02 th0br0: by community you mean individuals on their own? Mar 21 18:06:13 elected community representatives Mar 21 18:06:21 i'm actually a bit confused about community seats in this governance model.. i mean, it is not a democracy, it's a meritocracy - if you show your worth you'll be included Mar 21 18:06:22 basically like the maemo board. Mar 21 18:06:58 ideally we'll end up having difficulties seeing what's nokia side, intel side or people living in their parent's basements side Mar 21 18:07:04 th0br0: I have been wondering myself what would be the role of a 'community council' maemo.org style in the MeeGo context Mar 21 18:07:26 ah ok Mar 21 18:07:38 where you're evaluated of what you have done, instead of how much you've been able to be a politican getting a vote :P Mar 21 18:07:57 I honestly believe that MeeGo requires a meritocratic direction, just like most free software projects have Mar 21 18:08:23 GNOME, Debian and others do have elected roles, but ... Mar 21 18:08:31 if we want to have a release out, meritocracy (sadly?) is the only way to go Mar 21 18:08:37 1. either they are not directly involved in core decision processes Mar 21 18:08:52 e.g. GNOME Foundation board vs GNOME release tea, Mar 21 18:09:22 2. or the universe of voters is quite restricted Mar 21 18:09:27 e.g. Debian project leader Mar 21 18:09:37 which is a combination of meritocratic democracy :) Mar 21 18:10:32 qgil, neither of those projects are aiming ultimately to well-selling products. Mar 21 18:10:43 th0br0: why don't you ask the Maemo Community Council candidates? I also think that any initiative must be started actually by them, since is the only "internal" reference we have Mar 21 18:10:50 true Mar 21 18:11:03 i think it might be useful to see these non-nokia-non-intel initiated WG's is a way for people to start showing their work - people will gladly contribute if they're given a workshop to do it in Mar 21 18:11:07 Terje1: agreed Mar 21 18:11:19 or feel like they fit in the project somewhre Mar 21 18:11:27 those videos where nokia people were on stage with maemo council people and answering journalist questions gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. need some replacement provider of warm fuzzy in the meego age too :) Mar 21 18:11:47 Stskeeps: that is very true. Now it looks like the TSG is a "sexy" place to be if you want to exercise power Mar 21 18:11:49 (but provided the WG's work in the open, this should come automatically) Mar 21 18:11:59 qgil, in fact, I can't think of any community project with such a goal. It might be that we have something unique to buld. Mar 21 18:12:01 build Mar 21 18:12:10 however, we can see from fully developed free software project that the sexy places for exercising power are somewhere else Mar 21 18:12:14 generally closer to the code Mar 21 18:12:49 Terje1: well, the Linux Foundation ;) Mar 21 18:13:24 qgil, ah... Mar 21 18:15:18 there is something mentioned about voting rights at http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/bylaws - but I have beeter things to read on Sunday evening ;) Mar 21 18:15:25 :) Mar 21 18:17:33 actually it looks like there is only a corporate membership, not individual membership Mar 21 18:17:38 th0br0: maybe it would be worthwhile to consider repo WG as a team - as in, similar to infrastructure maintaince(sp) - where we're a support function for all teams and work areas to help provide collaboration spaces (and the policies, software, support etc) that comes along Mar 21 18:17:58 and I don't know if there is any democracy at all in the structure of maintainers of kernel.org Mar 21 18:18:15 where our goal isn't to wield power, but to maintain sanity and balance or something Mar 21 18:18:52 Stskeeps, hmm, so that's how we nerds are supposed to maintain sanity. No wonder I haven't succeeded. Mar 21 18:19:17 Terje1: one example can be someone reviewing your repo inclusion request and giving feedback on your packaging Mar 21 18:19:18 Stskeeps: don't our goals however lead us to the same role regardless of our position? Mar 21 18:19:22 th0br0: right Mar 21 18:20:24 still, i'd say that you have this repo WG and a repo Team ;) where repo WG is the administration of the repo Team. dunno. just ... say, for each packet to get included, you have to pass a review process by another packager. Mar 21 18:20:31 :nod: Mar 21 18:20:50 i think it's a support function and a research function in one Mar 21 18:20:53 yep Mar 21 18:21:03 one for day to day work, one for helping things in the future Mar 21 18:21:24 yep. and also partly controlling the day to day work Mar 21 18:24:25 There definitely would be value in good-quality packaging. Mar 21 18:27:34 it also makes sense from a economic point of view, this is an area volunteers really can make a difference :P Mar 21 18:28:47 Stskeeps, and an area which has been traditionally been in bad shape. Mar 21 18:29:45 Stskeeps, let's face it: only special kind of people find packaging interesting. Mar 21 18:30:32 Terje1, so why are so many picking up pitchforks about deb/rpm Mar 21 18:30:47 lcuk: those people also traditionally don't like change Mar 21 18:30:47 :P Mar 21 18:30:53 lcuk, beats me. Mar 21 18:31:19 meh - installshield would be cooler (H) Mar 21 18:31:19 rpm boooo Mar 21 18:31:29 Stskeeps, hmm, I really did not intend "special" in any bad way. I hope you didn't either. :-) Mar 21 18:32:07 the deb/rpm debate reminds me the reasons why I stopped loving football or politics in my motherland: people discussed about football when in fact they were discussing ab out politics and the other way around Mar 21 18:32:49 Terje1: i use my 'specialness' to do cool things, i'm in no way offended :) Mar 21 18:34:21 Stskeeps, did I hear evil laughter? Mar 21 18:34:44 Terje1: hehe Mar 21 18:35:30 RST38h: did you say forum? there is http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ meego meego looking for testers Mar 21 18:35:57 it's a vBulleting like talk.maemo.org integrated with a drupal like meego.com for common userid Mar 21 18:36:50 feedback about this test forum to the meego-community list please Mar 21 18:41:49 OpenID works well! Having CMS & forum integrated login with OpenID compliance is already more than what we could ever achieve in maemo.org.... :/ Mar 21 18:42:20 qgil: we don't have the password etc though Mar 21 18:42:24 a clean slate is good for so many reasons Mar 21 18:42:30 th0br0: for forum it's meego/meego Mar 21 18:42:39 th0br0: password etc? Mar 21 18:42:41 fro drupal too :)= Mar 21 18:43:46 is Reggie involved in http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ ? Mar 21 18:43:52 it's his site, afaik Mar 21 18:43:57 but the meegotalk.com accs are different from meego.com right? Mar 21 18:44:23 the idea is them not being, i think Mar 21 18:44:55 then I'll not register yet Mar 21 18:46:15 penguinbait: meegotalk.com is the test bed he put in place to give a try to the drupal/vBulletin integration. It's not meant to be a final site Mar 21 18:46:46 penguinbait: once we are happy about the test then Reggie will put in place the final one in the meego.com servers, integrated with the current meego.com Drupal Mar 21 18:46:53 that's cool Mar 21 18:47:26 any content in the test site will move to another dimension not accessible to humans Mar 21 18:54:07 ah, there is even a fluid width version in addition to the static width version! http://meegotalk.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=6&page=2&styleid=3 Mar 21 18:54:12 a discussion we won't have ;) Mar 21 18:54:47 ^^ Mar 21 18:54:57 * qgil already misses the Thanks button Mar 21 18:55:01 qgil, I thought you had better things to read on a Sunday evening. That's not better thing to read. Mar 21 18:55:43 Terje1: your comment remind me that it's time for dinner even for a Mediterranean guy like me Mar 21 18:56:26 qgil, no, that was five hours ago. Mar 21 18:57:11 actually there is something interesting that is not the talk.maemo.org Thanks button but interesting nonetheless: Mar 21 18:57:15 "Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No" Mar 21 18:57:28 i tend to dislike that Mar 21 18:57:38 if ppl thank every user it really gets annoying ;) Mar 21 18:57:50 not in talk.maemo.org Mar 21 18:58:07 i'm still wondering if i'm having a record at 398 thanks for one post or not Mar 21 18:58:09 and if that helps triaging the flesh from the noise... Mar 21 18:58:11 We Finns cannot be asked to give that much feedback. Mar 21 18:58:24 why not Terje1? Mar 21 18:58:47 Terje1: I'm actually starting to get worried about your verbosity - it must be the weekend ;) Mar 21 18:59:08 th0br0, so you haven't been to Finland? Mar 21 18:59:35 qgil, oops, should probably dig back into my cave. :-) Mar 21 18:59:37 unfortunately not. i haven't been to any of those countries on your half-island at all so far. Mar 21 18:59:47 Half-island? Mar 21 18:59:51 well, yes? Mar 21 19:00:01 What's a half-island? Mar 21 19:00:14 oh Mar 21 19:00:17 peninsula Mar 21 19:00:47 it's a pity about the TSG meeting time, would have been nice to make it at least to observe...wednesday evening is he only weekday evening i can not make any week Mar 21 19:01:08 th0br0, only Finland is in the same peninsula, so no other countries. Mar 21 19:01:30 so you'd say that sweden and norway are on another? Mar 21 19:01:44 th0br0, yes, in Scandinavia. Mar 21 19:02:08 what peninsula is finland on, then? Mar 21 19:02:13 i mean, is there any geographical separation? Mar 21 19:02:42 yes Mar 21 19:02:44 th0br0, I'm not sure it's a peninsula at all. We're pretty well attached to the mainland. Mar 21 19:02:56 mh, true. :) Mar 21 19:03:46 th0br0, at least I've never heard of Finland being said to be on a peninsula, so it's a weird though. Mar 21 19:04:06 thought Mar 21 19:04:27 mh, no idea. Mar 21 19:04:43 but yeah, you are still pretty much connected to the mainland Mar 21 19:04:49 Island could be considered sometimes a half-island: accessible with a boat from the south but you can walk up to the North Pole (with some preparation) Mar 21 19:04:53 th0br0, anyway, we're not in Scandinavia, but welcome to any of the Nordic countries anyway. :-) Mar 21 19:04:57 Iceland Mar 21 19:05:11 finland isn't part of scandinavia proper Mar 21 19:05:16 http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%93afods%C4%ABde o.O Mar 21 19:05:20 and scandinavia is a peninsula... Mar 21 19:05:35 The Scandinavian Peninsula is a geographic region in northern Europe, consisting of Norway, Sweden and part of northern Finland. Mar 21 19:05:35 ok Mar 21 19:06:09 th0br0, hm. I wonder which part of Finland belongs to Scandinavia. I guess I'll have to look it up. Mar 21 19:06:20 Terje1: lapland :) Mar 21 19:06:21 ^^ Mar 21 19:06:45 or rather probably the section physically adjacent to sweden :) Mar 21 19:07:18 Åland? Mar 21 19:08:28 qgil, that's a stretch. Mar 21 19:08:39 isn't Åland an island? Mar 21 19:08:50 thiago, yes. Mar 21 19:09:05 Ahvenanmaa in Finnish. Åland in Swedish. Mar 21 19:09:12 ah, i actually thought aaland was swedish Mar 21 19:09:18 * Stskeeps learns something new today Mar 21 19:09:28 Stskeeps, mentally it is. Mar 21 19:10:11 Stskeeps: some people have to concentrate mentally more than others, though Mar 21 19:51:28 lbt, i'll be a bit late for the meeting as we're having an unexpectedly late dinner Mar 21 19:51:39 heh np Mar 21 19:51:42 in # Mar 21 19:51:48 #meego-meeting IIRC Mar 21 19:52:07 lbt, good flight? Mar 21 19:52:11 yeah Mar 21 19:52:21 forgot the laptop PSU though :( Mar 21 19:53:05 aww lbt Mar 21 19:53:19 heffer: anaZ doesn't seem to be here yet anyway Mar 21 19:53:39 but in the end, if he isn't around, he isn't Mar 21 19:56:20 lbt, http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T18:22:38 and http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T19:41:11 might be good pre-reading Mar 21 19:56:28 are we in here or m-m? Mar 21 19:56:31 m-m Mar 21 19:56:40 Hi guys, I'm here for the meeting. Mar 21 19:56:44 good. Mar 21 19:56:54 btw, Stskeeps, mind opping me in #meego-meeting? Mar 21 19:58:10 Stskeeps: yes Mar 21 19:58:25 I think my intentions are about scoping out this area Mar 21 19:58:43 we say "extras" but given that meego-core is quite small Mar 21 19:58:50 besides, Stskeeps / lbt 1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal are any of these topics that you want to cover? Mar 21 19:58:51 I think we mean Universe Mar 21 19:59:36 th0br0: that's a broad description :) Mar 21 19:59:47 those are just some points on the agenda Mar 21 19:59:47 2) makes a lot of sense Mar 21 20:00:01 but we'll see eventually Mar 21 20:00:25 I guess I want to add 'Build Systems' in to it Mar 21 20:00:35 as that is a key part Mar 21 20:00:38 also QA Mar 21 20:01:10 either way we need to figure out where we belong :) Mar 21 20:01:10 I also have a point about "Vendor Meego" Mar 21 20:01:25 yeah - I'm making some mental assumptions Mar 21 20:07:22 gah Mar 21 20:07:25 hotels Mar 21 20:07:42 ^^ lbt Mar 21 20:17:11 Stskeeps: are there logs available for meego-meeting? I want to see what have I missed in the current meeting Mar 21 20:17:24 qgil, yes, hang on - i'll post them for you Mar 21 20:17:26 not much Mar 21 20:17:31 "it's a big space" Mar 21 20:19:48 qgil: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-2010.txt Mar 21 20:20:02 qgil: i'll post a ordered & structured log later on Mar 21 20:20:02 Stskeeps: thanks! Mar 21 20:38:14 hmm, we should have Meego:Community:* as a release based area too Mar 21 20:38:28 what is "glob"? Mar 21 20:38:54 i think it means "dump everything related to a release into one repository" Mar 21 20:39:03 I see Mar 21 20:39:13 including all community apps, base system, etc Mar 21 20:40:39 still, I have doubts how the QA is supposed to work across devices... what is acceptable on one might not be on the other Mar 21 20:41:57 also, the extras size problem is not due simply to the number of packages, but our rules of what goes in packages... it could be 1/4-1/5 the size, easy Mar 21 20:42:39 I wonder if we have one repo for all UXs or one repo for each UX... and how useble are the apps targeting one UX to another one Mar 21 20:43:03 what happens when apps have multi UX QML uber ui? Mar 21 20:43:16 lcuk: ? Mar 21 20:43:31 well i submit open source app to the nokia repository Mar 21 20:43:37 If QML is supported in MeeGo, then it¡s supported Mar 21 20:43:42 someone else makes a new qml frontend for in car system Mar 21 20:43:46 same app - 2 uis Mar 21 20:43:52 which repos is it in Mar 21 20:43:53 2 apps Mar 21 20:44:02 ? Mar 21 20:44:19 no idea :) Mar 21 20:45:19 one app for handset UX might scale well automatically for the other UXs, but the other way aorund... Mar 21 20:45:40 yeah i know Mar 21 20:45:43 was just a ponderment Mar 21 20:45:51 thinking out loud myself Mar 21 20:45:56 cos app developers usually target the place they feel comfortable and can test Mar 21 20:46:11 the app should 'know' or 'declare' which UX-es it supports ? Mar 21 20:46:28 otherwise you can't assume anything Mar 21 20:46:36 achipa, but thats the thing - a small ui can happily grow to fill a bigger space Mar 21 20:46:45 thats what I was getting to about the mulit-platform Mar 21 20:46:49 so even though developer X writes an app and only submits it to one repo Mar 21 20:46:56 someone else might push it for a larger form factor Mar 21 20:47:23 lcuk: cool, then it can say so :) what I'm saying is that your small UI for fingers might be run on something non-thouchscreen Mar 21 20:47:41 touchscreen* Mar 21 20:47:47 still, the UI can respond to clicks Mar 21 20:47:56 the ui will respond to clicks Mar 21 20:48:01 cos thats all a touchscreen does Mar 21 20:48:09 isn't the main problem screen resolution? Mar 21 20:48:17 nahh, not upwards Mar 21 20:48:26 what will be the smallest handset resolution supported and the biggest netbook? Mar 21 20:48:36 I believe the other ones are less relevant, but no idea Mar 21 20:48:40 thats for the HW people to decide Mar 21 20:48:48 upwards it more of a visual issue Mar 21 20:49:10 it can be ugly, especially if the aspect ratio is different Mar 21 20:49:39 achipa: but I guess the good MeeGo developer implements fluid UIs? Mar 21 20:49:45 this is not the land of a single device anymore Mar 21 20:50:07 i think achipa was thinking purely bitmap/pixel based layouts Mar 21 20:50:09 qgil: yikes ! that's what is probably the single most hated thing is Symbian right now... Mar 21 20:50:12 even within the same UX different aspect ratios are expected Mar 21 20:50:27 800*480 / 480*800 Mar 21 20:50:44 is=in... duh Mar 21 20:50:47 some apps can handle that nicely, others look crap Mar 21 20:50:54 lcuk: yeah, but that's just two Mar 21 20:50:55 portrait mode in your in-car entertainment might be indeed dangerous ;) Mar 21 20:51:24 lol qgil, just wait until we have entire central panels of lcd :D Mar 21 20:51:33 the full column Mar 21 20:51:34 :D Mar 21 20:52:06 sadly, fluid UI-s are just as good as the people implementing it Mar 21 20:53:02 the web is the perfect example... in theory you are almost completely resolution agnostic. In theory. Mar 21 20:53:29 its designers that spoil that lol Mar 21 20:54:05 th0br0: not quite what I meant - discuss l8r Mar 21 20:55:35 am i the only one whos reading the full stops aloud in the voice of commentor as "over" Mar 21 20:55:42 . Mar 21 20:56:02 I have no idea, I just repeat what others do, like a monkey :) Mar 21 20:56:26 i do like the ! ? format Mar 21 20:56:42 minimal disruption but shows you have a point to make Mar 21 20:56:42 we where asked to use EOF at the start of the meeting, I seem to be the only one doing that Mar 21 20:56:57 lcuk: yes, the talking stick Mar 21 20:56:59 lol Mar 21 20:58:03 * achipa wonders if we're going to end up with the conclusion that fluid UI's are not an option, but a practical requirement Mar 21 20:59:02 lbt: mhk Mar 21 20:59:28 I like "." Mar 21 20:59:29 . Mar 21 20:59:37 lbt / th0br0: dealing w/ queues and buckets is WAY TOO complicated for my tiny little mind Mar 21 20:59:43 i just finished watching a two hour movie Mar 21 20:59:46 ;) timeless_mbp Mar 21 20:59:51 timeless_mbp: what'd you watch? Mar 21 20:59:56 heh - I just landed!# Mar 21 21:00:04 after the sunset Mar 21 21:00:43 fwiw, w3 has a very smart bot which manages queues and stuff Mar 21 21:00:47 achipa: up to the developers? Mar 21 21:00:55 slaine, http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Source-Control-Shingle.aspx Mar 21 21:00:56 but i'm not going to play w/ anything that isn't that bot Mar 21 21:01:06 i don't want people to say "you didn't speak up at the right time" Mar 21 21:01:22 nor do i want to hear people say "you spoke out of turn" Mar 21 21:01:23 irc is a horrible medium to moderate :P Mar 21 21:01:34 Stskeeps: as i said, w3 has an irc bot which works Mar 21 21:01:45 url? Mar 21 21:01:48 it's used by large working groups w/ realtime meetings both f2f and telco Mar 21 21:02:00 http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html Mar 21 21:02:04 hi, my connection got cut off (real flakey isp), is there any log to what happened at m-m? Need to catch up. Mar 21 21:02:12 its partner in crime is http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent fwiw Mar 21 21:02:14 clintcan: i'll quickly update my url, sec Mar 21 21:02:29 and it really can deal w/ s/// expressions Mar 21 21:02:52 oh, and for kicks, zakim can place calls and mute noisy audio entries Mar 21 21:03:08 iow, i'm spoiled Mar 21 21:03:09 qgil: the question is whether policies encourage multi-device/multi-UX applications, or will it mean heavy per-device work... Mar 21 21:03:11 Stskeeps: ok, thanks. Mar 21 21:03:14 but i'm not going to settle for anything less :) Mar 21 21:03:18 clintcan: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-2010 Mar 21 21:03:50 th0br0: i think that my discussion was probably more about libcurl Mar 21 21:03:56 achipa: no idea, but Qt and Web Runtime put strong effort on the cross-platform aspect Mar 21 21:03:59 but as a dev, i'd like to claim that i don't know or care about the difference Mar 21 21:04:18 Stskeeps: thanks Mar 21 21:04:18 qgil: you can say that for companies, there is an interest for the app to work on as much devices as possible. With community apps, this is much more difficult, the original author might care little if his stuff does not work right on some Random MeeGo Product (TM) Mar 21 21:04:30 oh, and rrsagent doesn't minute /me (actions), which means chatter doesn't have to be in another channel Mar 21 21:05:02 achipa: sure, but if there would be clear guidelines to follow if you want to make your app multiplatform-friendly... Mar 21 21:05:25 pure qt would be a good start for that Mar 21 21:05:26 achipa: even most community developers prefer to have 10x users instead of x :) Mar 21 21:05:29 * timeless_mbp notes that qgil is reading from a marketing script (re Qt/WebRuntime) Mar 21 21:06:09 timeless_mbp: in my experience life is never as pink as in marketing scripts, neither as gray as in engineers' scripts :) Mar 21 21:06:10 lcuk: pure Qt doesn't even include QML yet :) Mar 21 21:06:25 then its not a problem is it Mar 21 21:06:39 qgil: sure, but you just read achipa a pink line Mar 21 21:06:44 write your app with the framework that does the job for you now Mar 21 21:06:49 and worry about the future when it comes Mar 21 21:07:02 timeless_mbp: read my line again, carefully written :) Mar 21 21:07:30 qgil: the English was crap :) Mar 21 21:07:41 so you'll forgive me for not just treating it as a pink marketing line Mar 21 21:08:14 timeless_mbp: I wish I could show off my best English on IRC Mar 21 21:08:24 and if you're volunteering to fix some pink lines, i've got a bunch that need scrubbing :) Mar 21 21:09:06 * timeless_mbp likes pink Mar 21 21:09:10 it's like raw meat Mar 21 21:09:10 qgil: it looks like you're accomplishing it here :-) Mar 21 21:09:25 timeless_mbp: your IRC nick actually appears in pink in my pidgin #meego room :) Mar 21 21:10:03 lcuk: sadly, that's dangerously close to 'don't code anything', as there is nothing out there that actually does the job (and is not a git build of something). Mar 21 21:10:04 thiago_home's rows get pink here for me, you're some turquoise Mar 21 21:11:09 it's all the same colour to me Mar 21 21:11:15 achipa, application toolkits of the qt ilk exist to create apps, if they are failing in that (which from what i can see it isnt) then another must be saught Mar 21 21:11:19 but meego is based on qt Mar 21 21:11:42 and hence, pure qt should be the baseline for a meego compliant app Mar 21 21:12:13 qml parsing ontop of that is just an abstraction Mar 21 21:12:33 making apps is one thing Mar 21 21:12:36 making _good_ apps is another Mar 21 21:12:49 there's only so much the toolkit can do for you Mar 21 21:13:17 lcuk: and sadly, pure qt is a lowest common denominator, making things quite difficult Mar 21 21:14:59 lcuk: to link back to the problem of multiple UXes above, if we do pure qt it will be a hell of a job making a MeeGo app that 'looks' and 'feels' right Mar 21 21:15:02 lbt, there should be a group working to implemnt cross platform standard apis in qt Mar 21 21:15:09 lbt: n900? Mar 21 21:15:10 :P Mar 21 21:15:15 achipa, well hang on a minute Mar 21 21:15:24 qt is marketed to do exactly that Mar 21 21:15:35 code once, use anywhere Mar 21 21:15:44 it uses the system native widgets to maintain a natural look? Mar 21 21:15:58 and where Qt is the native, just make Qt styles Mar 21 21:16:06 yes Mar 21 21:16:21 anyway, we're investigating what happens on these brand, new UXs Mar 21 21:16:35 if they are going to be so different from the desktop, maybe Qt needs to offer some more Mar 21 21:16:37 really this was another "We need to watch this area closely" Mar 21 21:16:45 we're working on it Mar 21 21:16:49 yes, all that is nice (pink line ? :) ), but then comes DUIfunk Mar 21 21:16:55 QML is one front, UI extension widgets are another Mar 21 21:17:09 not to mention the line towards Symbian... Mar 21 21:17:21 but wouldnt a QML textbox devolve into a qt textbox which would devolve into a system textbox Mar 21 21:17:36 lcuk: there isn't a QML textbox now Mar 21 21:17:46 but if there were, yes, that's the objective Mar 21 21:17:52 a system textbox is the system is not Qt Mar 21 21:17:52 just like basically what happens in web browser FORM INPUT elements Mar 21 21:18:08 ona Qt-based system, I'd expect it to be just another QML Rectangle with lots of child items Mar 21 21:18:32 and then the 'but then why do we need DUIbutton....' war starts... :( Mar 21 21:18:37 qgil: I don't know. Mar 21 21:18:41 yes Mar 21 21:18:54 does that mean if you use a vendor API you can't build on Meego BS? Mar 21 21:19:08 so will native qt be a second class citizen to qml? Mar 21 21:19:17 th0br0: hah!! Mar 21 21:19:23 lcuk: don't know yet Mar 21 21:19:32 part of commercial vendor is they want to be different... Mar 21 21:19:38 * lcuk gulps Mar 21 21:20:22 can't i build on gtk/clutter? :) Mar 21 21:20:25 it's in MeeGo :) Mar 21 21:20:36 standard Qt widgets will never do the same kind of animations and whiz and candy that you can do in QML Mar 21 21:20:40 or Clutter, for that matter Mar 21 21:20:53 doesnt matter to the 99% of app config editors out there Mar 21 21:20:59 so if the UX goes in that direction, the standard widgets will be "legacy" Mar 21 21:21:09 the eye candy in use will not be whizz bang in every single app Mar 21 21:21:18 if it doesn't go that far, they'll be the first-class Mar 21 21:21:31 lbt I don't know, but seeing how "Nokia binaries" are treated in the Maemo SDK there are probably a couple of legal tweaks to be made to provide such proprietary APIs in e.g. a Linux Foundation server, even regardless LF and MeeGo policies Mar 21 21:21:36 There also needs to be a consistent level of eye candy Mar 21 21:21:37 btw, i'd like to propose banning WebRuntime as a baseline for apps Mar 21 21:21:41 im just thinking of the company thats written their app to work now Mar 21 21:21:48 lbt but I really don't know, this is not an area where I'm involved Mar 21 21:21:51 timeless_mbp: why? Mar 21 21:21:53 based on the yeares of "code once deploy anywhere" Mar 21 21:21:53 because it's incredibly unlikely that webruntime will actually be properly portable Mar 21 21:22:00 if a text box behaves in some whiz bang way for app1, then it should do the same for appn Mar 21 21:22:01 qgil: yes - I want to promote consolidation, not diversification Mar 21 21:22:02 thiago: no two web runtimes are compatible Mar 21 21:22:16 and vendors love adding apis to them Mar 21 21:22:19 and at this point I just want to raise awareness... :) Mar 21 21:22:29 timeless_mbp, similar to the location api ? Mar 21 21:22:35 lbt but it makes sense that vendors try to do business and not only based on hardware & price points Mar 21 21:22:36 that had to be added to browser? Mar 21 21:22:47 and for the community side - suggest that it factors in to designs..... Mar 21 21:22:52 agreed Mar 21 21:23:09 there's generally no way to determine which APIs a given 'app' built around a web runtime actually use Mar 21 21:23:17 and we may find that an app needs to have #ifdefs for vsarious vendor APIs Mar 21 21:23:22 which means you can't really determine portability Mar 21 21:23:27 but ideally would be a single effort for the dev Mar 21 21:23:45 lcuk: NOW tell me not to worry about the future :D Mar 21 21:23:45 lcuk: re location api? probably Mar 21 21:23:57 lbt otoh if the MeeGo API is good and complete then vendors need to provide APIs *very* good and *very* complete Mar 21 21:24:46 I do hope it will turn into a no-op as I said at the start.... but I don't want to bet the farm on that :) Mar 21 21:25:02 no-op? Mar 21 21:25:22 a null operation Mar 21 21:25:32 ie no work to handle it Mar 21 21:25:45 achipa, i am saddened then by this. the expectation was that qml would build ontop of standard qt - and allow embedding standard qt widgets (for performance where necessary) Mar 21 21:25:45 because they all use the same APIs :) Mar 21 21:26:28 different canvas Mar 21 21:26:34 standard Qt widgets can't fit in QML Mar 21 21:26:37 horrible performance Mar 21 21:26:38 there isnt going to be a QML webkit widget for instance Mar 21 21:26:51 but you should be able to instantiate one Mar 21 21:27:00 within your qml definition Mar 21 21:27:42 Perhaps what will happen is that developer will go either the Community Way using the plain MeeGo (official & community) APIs Mar 21 21:27:47 or choose one of a million other widgets for doing things - the qml glue around is just like python Mar 21 21:28:04 or either Vendor Way, focusing on determinate vendors and playing with their SDKs and app stores Mar 21 21:29:15 * achipa can't shake the feeling this weakens both community devs (bad UI experience and integration with vendor stuff) and commercial devs (fragmentation support hell) Mar 21 21:29:35 achipa: on the other hand, it is impossible to standardize on everything.. Mar 21 21:29:45 i mean, vendors may move quicker than community Mar 21 21:29:55 achipa: at the end users buy Device X Mar 21 21:30:14 Stskeeps, its normally the other way round Mar 21 21:30:22 because vendors become locked to their codebase Mar 21 21:30:23 achipa: the apps available will be defined by the Device Vendor X store + MeeGo repo Mar 21 21:30:55 lcuk: i'm not always sure of that.. it's a nice thought, but communities can also have tunnel vision Mar 21 21:31:08 Stskeeps: absolutely, but that's why in the past Qt was so much fun, it technically WAS the vendor level Mar 21 21:31:25 nahhh all it takes in community for a new version of something is one dev sat in his bedroom Mar 21 21:31:37 What vendors? We know of exactly ONE vendor right now, and it is Nokia Mar 21 21:31:49 for business there is normally a 3 month discussion about what to call it Mar 21 21:31:51 and orange and lg? :P Mar 21 21:31:52 RST38h: and LG Mar 21 21:32:05 lcuk: i think meego was named in a lot less time than that ;-) Mar 21 21:32:14 And LG, which is not saying much (they are completely opaque) Mar 21 21:32:15 * lcuk giggles Mar 21 21:32:24 RST38h: MeeGo will have many diverse vendors, or there will be no MeeGo and this discussion will be pointless :) Mar 21 21:32:31 poorly, but that's neither here nor there ;-) Mar 21 21:32:50 Don't forget about the alternative spins too Mar 21 21:32:57 qgil: Then the discussion should really take place WHEN there are at least a few diverse vendors. Mar 21 21:33:13 RST38h: you mean now Mar 21 21:33:14 then you are playing catchup Mar 21 21:33:22 qgil: urrrm, when you say MeeGo repo do you mean the system level stuff or the 'community' repo Mar 21 21:33:23 Yep Mar 21 21:33:24 There's probably going to be a OpenSuse MeeGo spin, a Ubuntu MeeGo Remix spin, etc Mar 21 21:33:38 what's a spin? Mar 21 21:33:42 achipa: community repo, we are talking about "third party apps" now Mar 21 21:33:43 Dell shipping a modified version of the later I think Mar 21 21:33:48 slaine: none of these are hw vendors, nor do they exist... Mar 21 21:33:56 See last comment Mar 21 21:33:57 RST38h: dell is :) Mar 21 21:34:15 Is Dell shipping Meego? Is there a version of Meego right now that Dell intends to ship? Mar 21 21:34:20 I believe Novell signed up some OEM's for their Moblin spins too Mar 21 21:34:28 Last time I checked, Dell has been shipping Android. Mar 21 21:34:37 RST38h: They ship Moblin 2.1 Mar 21 21:34:40 RST38h: LG, Orange and Nokia have announced products Mar 21 21:34:50 this is current work Mar 21 21:34:56 Ok. The Orange's product, who makes it Mar 21 21:34:59 , Mar 21 21:35:03 ask Orange Mar 21 21:35:08 All right Mar 21 21:35:24 qgil: well, announced is strong word... or are you counting the Harmattan device as MeeGo ? Mar 21 21:35:40 BTW, Nokia has not announced a product, just an intent to produce one Mar 21 21:35:53 Tow others as well, right? Mar 21 21:36:10 hey, no worries - don't discuss about the scenarios with several vendors if you think it's too early :) Mar 21 21:36:18 (not doubting there will be a 'real' Nokia MeeGo product soon, just sticking to facts :) ) Mar 21 21:36:36 * RST38h thinks this should be pretty low level technical stuff Mar 21 21:37:36 You want to 1) have multiple repositories 2) have certain functionality for these (including user ratings and comments straight from HAM) and 3) have a scheme to distribute paid content through repos (real scheme, not the current hacker bait) Mar 21 21:38:18 All the rest (multiple vendors, etc) is high level business stuff that has no relation to any of the present people, at least outside of their NDAs, if signed Mar 21 21:38:47 afk Mar 21 21:39:25 * Stskeeps is pondering to hit the hay too, woke up at 5:30 and met with some bad compile errors that needed beating Mar 21 21:39:50 the multi-vendor question will be important in the sense that if not handled properly/timely, it will splinter (at the minimum) the community app section Mar 21 21:40:17 achipa: You can get to that when you get actually multiple vendors Mar 21 21:40:40 achipa: In general I doubt it will happen because the basic APIs (Qt etc) offered to these vendors are quite humane Mar 21 21:40:43 * timeless_mbp eyes achipa Mar 21 21:40:55 (you triggered nick highlighting) Mar 21 21:40:56 will be interesting to see if the different time-to-actual-device will mean something here, in effect making the vendor SDK/API the de-facto API instead of the actual underlying one Mar 21 21:41:03 Of course, LG/Samsung will come up with their own crap, with all the functions renamed (hello, bada), but who cares about them? Mar 21 21:41:20 https://store.ovi.com/ http://orange-application-shop.com/ http://au.lgapplication.com/ - enjoy! Mar 21 21:41:26 * achipa says ididntdoit in Bart Simpsonish manner Mar 21 21:41:40 RST38h: http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/var/linux_magazin/storage/images/media/linux-magazine-eng-us/images/news-images/bada-platform/385970-1-eng-US/Bada-platform.png Mar 21 21:42:11 Stskeeps: Yes it is a rewritten Symbian based on Linux with UI stolen from a few platforms Mar 21 21:42:51 Stskeeps: And no, this image does not say a thing about that :) Mar 21 21:43:27 someone should nominate it as the most useless architecture diagram of the year Mar 21 21:43:50 that is stupid Mar 21 21:44:02 Stskeeps: not enough buzzwords for that :) Mar 21 21:44:34 Stskeeps: My point is that you can easily disregard LG/Samsung, while Nokia, Dell, etc are VERY likely to go with the official set of APIs Mar 21 21:45:14 Stskeeps: And the Orange thing will not be made by Orange, reducing this case to one of the above :) Mar 21 21:45:48 RST38h: but what if it's Orange who sets the requirements? Mar 21 21:45:57 anyway, either you have a MeeGo API or you have not Mar 21 21:46:21 any clues how or if community "ports" will be handled by Meego? sub-archs like via/amd Vs Intel, the arm variants or even ppc Vs cell. where will an installer come from for non-vendor installed devices (or generic images for vednor installed ones)? Mar 21 21:46:38 whoa, this orange store is a blast from the past, top Nokias are N73 and N95 :) Mar 21 21:47:23 RST38h: Dell are also likely to ship hardware with non-opensource drivers Mar 21 21:47:28 Broadcom etc. Mar 21 21:47:34 I ahve no clue about these shops achipa - I just wanted to illiustrate the problem with URLs Mar 21 21:49:46 bfree: arch stuff is the 'easy' part, the per vendor, per device(UX) is where the funk starts Mar 21 21:50:35 Stskeeps: that architecture diagram is explained at http://www.bada.com/category/blog/architecture-blog/ Mar 21 21:50:51 "explained" Mar 21 21:53:25 qgil: it's clearer than meego's architecture =b Mar 21 21:53:28 achipa: are intel and amd the same arch (x86) or different? :-p will Meego ship an installer for amd cpu+gpu systems (and will it be the same of different from the intel installer and hence be able to share repositories/stores) Mar 21 21:53:58 timeless_mbp: specially http://dpimg.ospos.net/contents/tutorials/bada-V1.0.0b1/badaTutorial.Overview.pdf is Mar 21 21:54:41 has Samsung released any Bada code yet? Mar 21 21:55:11 qgil: looks like symbian Mar 21 21:55:22 * timeless_mbp wonders if they got app portability right Mar 21 21:56:09 thiago_home: "Bada code" as in source or as in binary? Mar 21 21:56:13 (by that, i mean, install into arbitrary locations) Mar 21 21:56:16 either Mar 21 21:56:38 there is an sdk http://developer.bada.com/apis/docs/commonpage.do?menu=MC01040000&mtb1=&mtb2= Mar 21 21:58:13 bfree: that's up to the vendor to decide, if someone with specific amd hw steps in, I reckon they will have to provide the support for it Mar 21 22:01:58 for those that want to take a peek at the Bada SDK but can't be bothered to install it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPs6u9AXOsI Mar 21 22:04:10 qgil: I took a look at the actual app code samples Mar 21 22:04:31 qgil: It looks like a Symbian ripoff, which by itself is rather funny Mar 21 22:04:53 The UI has been borrowed from everywhere, from iPhone to WinMobile Mar 21 22:05:04 simpsons did it Mar 21 22:05:35 Anyway, nightly reading and sleep Mar 21 22:06:51 my opinion from Bada was that it was C++ API made by Java Engineers Mar 21 22:07:12 too many namespaces, too many virtuals Mar 21 22:08:28 thiago: yes Mar 21 22:08:33 i'm leaving. bye, good night everyone Mar 21 22:08:46 the string class derives from Object and has a virtual compare... Mar 21 22:59:50 yay Mar 21 23:00:17 that took a long time to get two things in right place in css Mar 21 23:04:16 hi, sorry guys i could not attend the meeting Mar 21 23:04:27 sunday kinda sucks for meetings :) Mar 21 23:04:40 there was a meeting? shit Mar 21 23:04:47 :) Mar 21 23:05:16 too many family commitments on a sunday afternoon Mar 21 23:05:34 and to be honest, I hate irc meetings Mar 21 23:07:21 I've only ever been in one **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Mar 22 03:00:02 2010