**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 27 02:59:56 2010 Mar 27 06:42:49 * Stskeeps yawns and boots up his devices Mar 27 09:40:37 morning Stskeeps Mar 27 09:59:22 ANNOUNCE: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group .... Looking for comments and input. If we want to get this before the TSG this week we need to do it this weekend Mar 27 10:28:49 hello Mar 27 10:44:17 hello? Mar 27 10:44:42 hello maiden Mar 27 10:45:14 heffer: any thoughts on how to start with that packaging day? Mar 27 10:45:46 heffer: I'm thinking 10th of April Mar 27 10:57:58 morn lbt Mar 27 10:58:54 * Stskeeps is in love with his new car, a2dp works flawlessly, i can charge my n900 with the in-built usb port Mar 27 11:01:00 any word of meego on the n900? Mar 27 11:01:30 Stskeeps: Mar 27 11:01:55 maiden: yes, it will be reference device for meego arm Mar 27 11:02:29 so, if i buy a n900 now, i shuld be able to reflash it and install meego? Mar 27 11:02:41 keep in mind meego is still in it's infancy Mar 27 11:02:49 yes i know :D Mar 27 11:02:50 and noone says it'll be a official nokia meego :P Mar 27 11:03:00 and by meego i don't mean harmattan Mar 27 11:03:03 that is not a problem :P Mar 27 11:09:56 lbt: yes, i go for the geeky things :P Mar 27 11:28:38 lbt, 10th of April wouldn't work out for me because i'm on a seminar at that time Mar 27 11:28:59 lbt, by the way sorry that I didn't make it to the meeting last time Mar 27 11:43:55 heffer: OK.. I'm at a meeting on 17th... how about 11th/18th ? Mar 27 11:44:05 want it to be ASAP after day 1... Mar 27 11:44:09 lbt: This should be done on the mailing lists Mar 27 11:44:14 and we should think about announcing it Mar 27 11:44:17 that would be no problem for me Mar 27 11:44:18 yes Mar 27 11:44:53 jeremiah_: yep.... but I'm just being opportunistic since heffer is here Mar 27 11:44:53 The last meeting for the repo team was a bit problematic, held 48 hours after annoucnment Mar 27 11:45:11 i'll post a call for help to our fedora packaging/mini guys that have been working on moblin for some time already Mar 27 11:45:13 lbt: *gein* Mar 27 11:45:21 no, it was held about a week+ after announcements Mar 27 11:45:24 heffer: That would be awesome Mar 27 11:45:34 lbt: No - it was on a friday and the meeting was sunday Mar 27 11:45:45 jeremiah_: read the ml archives... :) Mar 27 11:45:54 anhow... water/bridge Mar 27 11:46:55 okay, true dat Mar 27 11:47:18 lbt: I thought you made some interesting points yesterday Mar 27 11:47:25 lbt: Good to see you so involved. Mar 27 11:47:54 heh - it's finding time isn't it :) Mar 27 11:49:01 Yeah. Finding time is key - but you work for Nokia now? Mar 27 11:49:09 So you can put more time into MeeGo/ Mar 27 11:49:12 ? Mar 27 11:49:36 not really - the nokia work is purely internal Mar 27 11:49:47 "internal" Mar 27 11:49:54 You're doing it in your stomach? Mar 27 11:49:56 although I make sure that as much as possible can be externalised Mar 27 11:50:09 nah, it's corporate process stuff Mar 27 11:50:16 Oooh Mar 27 11:50:19 process Mar 27 11:50:32 well, defining and automating it Mar 27 11:50:36 My god. Process is like walking in pancake batter Mar 27 11:50:39 QA, OBS development Mar 27 11:50:54 yeah - but we do release things... OBS/LDAP integration Mar 27 11:50:58 QA hooks Mar 27 11:51:08 Documents... Mar 27 11:51:14 That is awesom e valuable stuff Mar 27 11:51:14 Process guidelines.... Mar 27 11:51:20 yeah Mar 27 11:51:27 which no one follows Mar 27 11:51:31 * RST38h smirks Mar 27 11:51:40 I'm getting us to split the docs to internal/external Mar 27 11:51:48 so 'how to get started on Meego OBS' Mar 27 11:51:59 should end up on Meego.org Mar 27 11:52:03 lbt: I would love to see that - that is sorely needed Mar 27 11:52:28 yeah... we've been asked not to push it until day 1... it wouldn't ease tensions :) Mar 27 11:52:49 I don't understand the rationale . . . Mar 27 11:52:53 jeremiah_: but if you ever did my Mer tutorial you'd find it familiar.... Mar 27 11:53:00 jeremiah: Guidelines are actually important. They let you blame people when something goes wrong. Mar 27 11:53:17 lbt: I haven't, I'll read your Mer tutorial to get prepared. :-) Mar 27 11:53:18 yup... and putting them on a wiki lets me tell you to fix it yourself ;) Mar 27 11:53:34 RST38h: Truer words were never spoken. =) Mar 27 11:53:42 actually, your group needs to get stuck in to the Mer docs Mar 27 11:53:54 they are the best .deb docs around for OBS Mar 27 11:53:56 The debian group? Mar 27 11:54:00 yes Mar 27 11:54:02 Really? Cool Mar 27 11:54:06 jeremiah_: you have to consider that all the errors in materials will be paramount for failures when you start a huge organisation such as meego on day 1 Mar 27 11:54:15 Can I put a URL on the wiki from you? Mar 27 11:54:20 so i don't blame them for not pushing until day 1 Mar 27 11:54:23 adverse effects etc Mar 27 11:54:34 jeremiah_: yes - link to Mer docs by all means Mar 27 11:54:37 You've gone all corporate Stskeeps Mar 27 11:54:45 jeremiah_: no, brainwash Mar 27 11:54:46 :P Mar 27 11:54:58 You have completely forgottent they (Intel Nokia) need us more than we need them Mar 27 11:55:07 Stskeeps: What do they use for brainwashing anyway? Mar 27 11:55:07 Moblin failed Mar 27 11:55:14 It was a disaster Mar 27 11:55:15 RST38h: sauna and jaegermeister Mar 27 11:55:19 jeremiah: Wrong. Mar 27 11:55:27 jaegermeister... I forgot! Mar 27 11:55:27 Oh yeah? Mar 27 11:55:30 Where is it now? Mar 27 11:55:40 jeremiah: Neither Intel nor Nokia are human beings, hence they neither need you nor understand that they need you Mar 27 11:55:41 hello all Mar 27 11:56:07 RST38h: Oh that, yeah, fair enough. But they need money. And with community they can get money Mar 27 11:56:07 jeremiah_: i'm not entirely sure about need us more than we need them.. i think it's also about us needing them as much as we need them Mar 27 11:56:25 Stskeeps: Everything I need is already open Mar 27 11:56:32 Why do I need to get it from MeeGo? Mar 27 11:56:39 jeremiah_: you have fredom not to do so :P Mar 27 11:56:45 Indeed. Mar 27 11:56:45 jeremiah: Not really, even if all of us buy ourselves devices, it will still be way less than the revenue streams these behemots become interested in Mar 27 11:56:50 how come the distmaster and the debmaster haven't commented on the package WG email? Mar 27 11:57:11 RST38h: Surely, but it is not us buying the devices they care about Mar 27 11:57:19 jeremiah_: btw, you're leaving us in june? Mar 27 11:57:23 jeremiah: Somebody still will. Mar 27 11:57:27 They want us to know the technology so they can hire us, so they can point to momentum Mar 27 11:57:33 This is key Mar 27 11:57:33 jeremiah: Somebody has been buying N76, right? :) Mar 27 11:57:43 lbt, repo wg or package wg? Mar 27 11:57:59 oh,err, repo... :) Mar 27 11:58:00 When you evaluate your next widget in the corporate world - you look for "thriving ecosystem" Mar 27 11:58:18 Intel Nokia need a thriving ecosystem Mar 27 11:58:20 jeremiah: The actual key is to keep head cheeses under impression that the community can be of some use (what exact use is not important) Mar 27 11:58:37 RST38h: You have to tell them that directly Mar 27 11:58:41 jeremiah: Nokia claims there is a "thriving Symbian ecosystem" :) Mar 27 11:59:01 a cesspool is a ecosystem Mar 27 11:59:03 Stskeeps: Yeah, I resigned as debmaster before the MeeGo announcement Mar 27 11:59:08 jeremiah_: where? Mar 27 11:59:16 I'll leave at the end of my contract Mar 27 11:59:21 (i first read it yesterday, so) Mar 27 11:59:40 Stskeeps: I haven't made it public thinking that Nokia would want to do something their way Mar 27 11:59:50 jeremiah: why leave though? no use for your skills at Nokia? Mar 27 12:00:09 RST38h: I love Nokia, I know you guys might think I hate them, but I don't Mar 27 12:00:20 RST38h: I am simply not doing a good job as debmaster Mar 27 12:00:29 Someone else should step in Mar 27 12:00:32 jeremiah_: hrm, okay - hired by community usually means you tell to council and such i guess? but i dunno Mar 27 12:00:37 * RST38h neither loves not hates Nokia. Same goes for Intel actually. Mar 27 12:00:46 Stskeeps: Umm, of course I told them _first_ Mar 27 12:00:54 jeremiah_: ah, so they didn't communicate it further Mar 27 12:00:58 Nope Mar 27 12:01:02 lovely Mar 27 12:01:14 I told the council back in December that I was _thinking_ of leaving Mar 27 12:01:25 there's some degree of reason why i don't mind a community reset in meego Mar 27 12:01:28 I wanted a completely different architecture for the servers Mar 27 12:01:40 I wanted drbd, two machines for the repos, reprepro Mar 27 12:01:47 I set some of that stuff up Mar 27 12:01:50 It was totally ignored Mar 27 12:01:54 jeremiah: Can still be done, outside of maemo.org Mar 27 12:02:04 RST38h: Not really Mar 27 12:02:12 I tried to open up the repos with rsync Mar 27 12:02:16 Didn't get far Mar 27 12:02:24 "Firewall" on the IPS's side Mar 27 12:02:26 I'm hoping to see some changes in the maemo.org build/repo area too Mar 27 12:02:31 jeremiah: In fact, it may be well worth it: lots of people told me they are frustrated with the current Extras guidelines and do not want to even start trying to get there Mar 27 12:02:34 lbt: It will never happen Mar 27 12:02:42 There are entrenched interests Mar 27 12:03:03 RST38h: Yeah, people are leaving and pulling their software Mar 27 12:03:04 Sadly Mar 27 12:03:23 jeremiah: qole has an independent repo. Maybe you can get together and come up with an alternative repo system? Mar 27 12:03:49 jeremiah: also, talk to rm_you and me if you need PackRat sources for browsing the repo online Mar 27 12:04:02 RST38h: Oh reall? I didn't know that Mar 27 12:04:23 I don't want to split the community though, I wanted to work from inside out Mar 27 12:04:34 jeremiah: This will not split the community Mar 27 12:04:49 jeremiah: It will simply provide an alternative to Maemo Extras, that's all Mar 27 12:04:58 Well, I don't want to appear to split the community Mar 27 12:05:14 TBH a split is better than fragmentation Mar 27 12:05:18 jeremiah: It is better to have a single organized alternative than have a dozen of disorganized alternatives which are almost sure to spring up Mar 27 12:05:27 I actually think the Extras process is pretty good, it just needs some tweaking. Mar 27 12:05:43 and more hands on the software managing it Mar 27 12:05:52 Stskeeps: Yes! Mar 27 12:05:54 Exactly! Mar 27 12:06:02 Well, as you said, not gonna happen Mar 27 12:06:02 But the hands who are managing it do not want help Mar 27 12:06:29 So, the plan B is to create an Extras Junior outside and manage it by community Mar 27 12:06:43 Well, isn't MeeGo plan B? Mar 27 12:06:54 MeeGo is a corporate plan B Mar 27 12:06:56 Shouldn't we focus on building something cool from the ground up? Mar 27 12:07:05 No Mar 27 12:07:08 Yup - it is corporate linux Mar 27 12:07:14 But nothing wrong with that Mar 27 12:07:18 IMHO we should focus on providing what community needs Mar 27 12:07:34 RST38h: Hmm. How do we determine what that is though? Mar 27 12:07:35 jeremiah_: i like to see it as a possibility to reset bad decisions of the past Mar 27 12:07:43 NOT what somebody's idealized idea of the community needs Mar 27 12:07:55 Stskeeps: I totally agree. Mar 27 12:07:55 jeremiah: Pretty simple, actually Mar 27 12:08:10 jeremiah_: what were bad decisions is a bit subjective though Mar 27 12:08:11 jeremiah: Put yourself into the boots of an average power user Mar 27 12:08:16 Stskeeps: Yes Mar 27 12:08:37 Forget the bad decisions, the blame, etc as it is not gonna be constructive Mar 27 12:08:38 Stskeeps: Even you and I don't always agree so it is going to be hard to create a reset button everyone is happy with Mar 27 12:08:50 RST38h: i think we should define community as non-attached-to-meego-teams-with-logins-to-central-obs-and-such Mar 27 12:09:01 RST38h: Well, I know this is contraversial, but I want an Free Software repo Mar 27 12:09:04 and work how we can help bringing more contributors Mar 27 12:09:11 like, staging area for talents Mar 27 12:09:14 Stskeeps: I really do not think it is worth starting a cporation-denying revolution here :) Mar 27 12:09:22 RST38h: not a corporation denying Mar 27 12:09:28 The only way to ensure all the code is open is to insist on OSI licenses Mar 27 12:09:33 i worded it wrong Mar 27 12:09:39 jeremiah: Ok, let us return to that scenario Mar 27 12:09:47 :) Mar 27 12:09:49 RST38h: i meant it as the playground for new features, applications, recompiles of entire platform, etc Mar 27 12:09:55 the stuff that is outside release schedules Mar 27 12:10:29 jeremiah: You are a simple user. You want to: 1) easy access to apps 2) steady stream of apps 3) way to keep up with the new apps 4) some way to avoid lemons Mar 27 12:10:36 Stskeeps: Mer? :) Mar 27 12:10:45 RST38h: that is one way of seeing it. Mar 27 12:10:53 jeremiah_: i'll be very loud the moment they put closed source into the shared platform amongst devices, at least Mar 27 12:11:04 jeremiah: Let us forget about all the grand plans and address these items one by one Mar 27 12:11:06 Awesome. =) Mar 27 12:11:17 jeremiah: #1 is basically addresses with PackRat. Mar 27 12:11:18 jeremiah_: on the hardware level opinions vary, :P Mar 27 12:11:31 Stskeeps: And you have more experience there than I Mar 27 12:11:44 So I will defer to your better judgement Mar 27 12:11:51 But I believe we can make some progress therre tooo Mar 27 12:11:55 yes, of course Mar 27 12:12:10 jeremiah: #2 is solved by having exactly TWO repos (staging and safe) with really easy, informal promotion (see Diablo Extras) Mar 27 12:12:37 jeremiah: #3 is solved by writing some more PHP and talking to my-maemo guy to manage it Mar 27 12:12:55 jeremiah: #4 is solved by letting users comment on apps in #3 and #1 Mar 27 12:13:21 jeremiah: All of this is doable at the cost of 1-2 weeks of somebody's evening time. Mar 27 12:13:48 RST38h: Okay Mar 27 12:13:58 jeremiah: There is really no need to discuss it. Implement it, advertise it on tmo, collect comments from tmo and irc, make modifications, rinse, repeat a few times Mar 27 12:14:08 Why aren't you proposing this to the TSG then? Mar 27 12:14:18 I mean, I have my pet project already. Mar 27 12:14:22 jeremiah: Because I am 100% sure TSG will thank me and go its own way Mar 27 12:14:43 Ah. Mar 27 12:14:44 jeremiah: This happened to me before, with Maemo.org. I am not losing any more of my time again, by proposing to TSG etc Mar 27 12:14:53 okay Mar 27 12:18:16 I really think that the community should propose this to the TSG to get the most traction. Mar 27 12:18:22 I am nobody to the MeeGo people Mar 27 12:19:19 we're all nobodies :P Mar 27 12:19:24 Ok, prpopse it to the TSG and claim the credit, it is all yours :) Mar 27 12:19:28 well, except for merit Mar 27 12:19:44 * RST38h thinks somebody (not community but a person) should simply implement it Mar 27 12:20:24 In fact, have a joint server for both Maemo5 and Meego packages Mar 27 12:32:57 I think a lot of what has been said (whilst I got my food) relates to the RWG Mar 27 12:33:41 I feel that a meego-community.org OBS would pull all of that together amazingly well Mar 27 12:34:15 as for the TSG aspect... the RWG sets out some goals - not implementation details Mar 27 12:38:41 Hmm, meego-community OBS eh? Mar 27 12:38:52 Will it be bit for bit the same as the official meego OBS? Mar 27 12:39:04 it will have a n/w link to it Mar 27 12:39:08 so yes Mar 27 12:39:16 And I have already asked Intel about thins, but what happens when Novell gets bought? Mar 27 12:39:35 And OBS becomes proprietary? Mar 27 12:39:40 it's GPL Mar 27 12:39:51 So who will maintain it? Mar 27 12:39:57 all that may happen is we lose the devs/maintainers Mar 27 12:40:06 about half of whom work for LF Mar 27 12:40:12 iirc Mar 27 12:40:18 then just move on to koji :D until then it'll have all the features needed Mar 27 12:40:22 ah, okay cool Mar 27 12:40:27 * lbt stabs heffer Mar 27 12:40:29 :P Mar 27 12:40:39 What is koji? Mar 27 12:40:44 * jeremiah_ googles Mar 27 12:40:46 nothing to see... move along Mar 27 12:40:51 Fedora's build system :D Mar 27 12:40:58 i know i'm a Fanboy :P Mar 27 12:40:59 Ah, okay Mar 27 12:41:02 good god people.... Mar 27 12:41:13 hey, how about building it from source... Mar 27 12:41:15 we could.... Mar 27 12:41:21 ooh shiney... Mar 27 12:41:38 Looks interesting Mar 27 12:41:41 * lbt puts head in hands Mar 27 12:41:53 See what it is like? Mar 27 12:41:57 Now you know. Mar 27 12:41:57 OK, a friend is moving house... I have to go... :) Mar 27 12:42:14 Later! We'll talk about koji while you're gone Mar 27 12:42:19 I'll be back l8r.... jeremiah_ I expect to see a Mer package on the Suse OBS in home:jeremiah Mar 27 12:42:21 :P Mar 27 12:42:25 l9r guys ;) Mar 27 12:42:26 jeremiah_: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-March/000562.html Mar 27 12:42:31 =) Mar 27 12:42:55 * jeremiah_ surfs Stskeeps link Mar 27 12:43:42 Is Orange officially in? Mar 27 12:43:49 i think they were Mar 27 12:44:14 I saw some kind of announcement, but I don't remember if they were going to commit resources or not Mar 27 12:45:40 Good stuff Stskeeps Mar 27 12:47:05 that's personally how i see things in meego, though i might be wrong :P Mar 27 12:52:06 what do you think, jeremiah_? Mar 27 12:53:06 Stskeeps: This is a hard subject, but I think your vision is about as good as can be Mar 27 12:53:22 I feel community has to go right through the project Mar 27 12:53:31 Up to the top, to the build system, to the repos, etc. Mar 27 12:53:57 If the corporate powers act as a brake then community momentum suffers Mar 27 12:54:18 i wouldn't mind seeing a representant in TSG for 'meego contributors' for instance Mar 27 12:54:21 And I am not convinced that coroporations have it in their DNA to allow the community to run the asylum Mar 27 12:54:33 or allow the asylum to run the community ;) Mar 27 12:54:53 Stskeeps: Well, your Vendor social contract is an awesome idea that I think they are ignoring Mar 27 12:54:58 That kinda upsets me Mar 27 12:55:27 code first, organisation, then we can talk about how we deal with the unruly people Mar 27 12:55:30 :P Mar 27 12:55:45 i don't think it's being ignored, personally Mar 27 12:55:45 You mean unruly like me? ;) Mar 27 12:55:58 Stskeeps: hi, does your mom have a cellar? ;) Mar 27 12:55:59 Stskeeps: Good, I don't think it should be ignored Mar 27 12:56:08 lol Mar 27 12:56:20 qgil: Where do you think he is writing from? Mar 27 12:56:31 poland? Mar 27 12:56:41 qgil: actually when she was alive, then yes, she did have, but i didn't live there ;) Mar 27 12:57:36 ... your mail is good Mar 27 12:58:02 I guess the non-coders contributors could be more stressed Mar 27 12:58:08 and they you would have a nice blog post Mar 27 12:58:47 yeah - my perspective and knowledge is on coder side, so that was what i was writing about Mar 27 12:58:56 background: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-March/000562.html Mar 27 12:59:30 any opinions about http://wiki.meego.com/Community_working_group ? Mar 27 12:59:43 jeremiah_: sorry for my blunt answer yesterday Mar 27 12:59:45 * Stskeeps looks Mar 27 12:59:54 qgil: I appreciate your directness. :) Mar 27 13:00:08 jeremiah_: I guess I'm seeing too many debates moving away from the kernel that matters :) Mar 27 13:00:31 Fair enough, we all have our little pet projects, you know what mine is. =) Mar 27 13:00:58 Will you be in San Francisco? Mar 27 13:01:04 I won't, too far away Mar 27 13:01:07 qgil: i like the focus on collaboration tools and processes as this is what will seep through the entire community/whatever is surrounding the platform Mar 27 13:01:13 But I would love to go to that some day Mar 27 13:01:28 I'll go to the collaboration summit in SF, yes Mar 27 13:01:40 qgil: and allow people to 'advance' as such Mar 27 13:01:49 yep Mar 27 13:02:19 i had to re-read goals a bit to not confuse it with a bada architecture diagram :P Mar 27 13:02:23 So there is no community role in the "official" rpm repos? Mar 27 13:02:40 I don't see them in the Web infrastructure list Mar 27 13:02:51 jeremiah_: release management can have non-nokians-non-intel people in it by merit, i guess Mar 27 13:02:53 jeremiah_: define "community role" Mar 27 13:03:23 Well, someone to help check that the repos work, that the packages build I guess Mar 27 13:03:24 in that page you have OBS (official infra) and Extras/Downloads Mar 27 13:03:31 Okay. Mar 27 13:03:39 Perhaps those two cover it then. Mar 27 13:03:40 anybody can help anywhere Mar 27 13:03:45 okay, great Mar 27 13:04:19 qgil: think my mail would work a lot better as a short animated movie :) Mar 27 13:04:29 Stskeeps: that too Mar 27 13:04:42 Stskeeps: by 'bada style' goals you mean http://wiki.meego.com/Community_working_group#Coordination ? Mar 27 13:04:59 With furry creatures wearing eye-patches! Mar 27 13:05:13 A penguin on a skateboard. Mar 27 13:05:19 qgil: yeah - when i read it together with mission it made sense Mar 27 13:05:30 it was just physically seperate so i didn't connect the two Mar 27 13:05:59 lbt and I spoke with Dawn last night Mar 27 13:06:14 Good to see so many of the community folks from MeeGo showing up on the IRC channel Mar 27 13:06:24 Really feels like MeeGo is accessible. Mar 27 13:06:27 but these try to be the specific goals of the coordinators Mar 27 13:07:01 jeremiah_: there's also a fair big bunch of people in here, though you might not spot them immediately Mar 27 13:07:37 Stskeeps: We spoke with Thiago too Mar 27 13:07:47 A couple others for a while as well. Mar 27 13:08:38 now that we know who is who, it helps :P in maemo it was difficult to know where people were sitting or responsibilities etc Mar 27 13:09:15 this is the point I didn't want to insist more yesterday with the council-purpose discussion Mar 27 13:09:23 Yeah, lots of interesting Nokians coming out of the woodwork Mar 27 13:09:48 and intel people too, obviously Mar 27 13:09:52 the MeeGo structure will be evident through appointments, additional people joining teams, package maintainers, committers... Mar 27 13:10:03 * thiago_home heard his name Mar 27 13:10:16 Speak of the devil and he shall appear Mar 27 13:10:18 =) Mar 27 13:10:23 she Mar 27 13:10:32 The devil is a she? Mar 27 13:10:34 Oh. Mar 27 13:10:43 I'm no the devil, but I'm well connected :-P Mar 27 13:10:45 I mean, the devil - not Thiago Mar 27 13:10:51 thiago_home: =) Mar 27 13:42:44 Jaffa: according to Facebook you got married 12 minutes ago Mar 27 13:43:05 Jaffa: congrats! Mar 27 13:43:33 (these youngsters, not even at the church can they stop with the FB thing) Mar 27 13:45:08 * Stskeeps is amazed 'maemo/meego dual boot (not yet)' made it to engadget Mar 27 13:45:46 Stskeeps: you tell me Mar 27 13:46:06 must be slow news day :) Mar 27 13:46:10 answering a post forum about expectations of the first MeeGo code dump Mar 27 13:46:25 then just adding a note about the dual boot just because I had heard the day before Mar 27 13:46:28 and... Mar 27 13:46:46 all this in the morning, with N900 and commuter train Mar 27 13:46:54 XXIst century news! Mar 27 13:47:46 illustrating with a GTK+ virtual keyboard helps giving people an impression of what MeeGo could be, I guess :( Mar 27 13:51:18 "totally revamped landscape on-screen keyboard" :) Mar 27 13:59:03 heh Mar 27 14:01:59 Cool. Glad I have an extra N900 for development bricking Mar 27 14:09:28 * Stskeeps is happy he has found a N900-compatible car Mar 27 14:58:56 * lcuk awaits a build of meego to try on his touchscreen Mar 27 14:59:30 what processor? Mar 27 15:00:49 intel Mar 27 15:01:02 * lcuk checks exact specs Mar 27 15:01:18 but if it doesnt work ill just have to carry on using windows normal qt Mar 27 15:01:47 or ubuntu or something Mar 27 15:01:47 Intel® Pentium® Dual Core T4300 (2.1 GHz) Mar 27 15:02:07 ah, got a t4200 Mar 27 15:02:11 Yeah, MeeGo is more geared toward Atom Mar 27 15:02:16 http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/product-03660998-pdt.html?srcid=198&tag=Desktops_LT&xtor=SEC-23-GOO&mctag=gg_goog_7904 Mar 27 15:02:21 i know jeremiah_ Mar 27 15:02:26 i do have the ssse3 extension so technically i shouldn't have a proble Mar 27 15:02:27 m Mar 27 15:02:31 its such a waste since high powered intel chips are so workable Mar 27 15:02:38 Just sayin' Mar 27 15:02:41 * lcuk nods Mar 27 15:03:09 SUSE's distro works nicely on that machine I think Mar 27 15:03:15 I saw one at FOSDEM Mar 27 15:03:26 i hope for community builders where it is possible to do non-atom builds Mar 27 15:03:31 yeah i saw lots i might just keep windows on it for the novelty Mar 27 15:03:32 with ze powah of obs Mar 27 15:04:01 didnt i see something that the home obs builders wont work because of lack of sse3 emulation Mar 27 15:04:24 Yeah, lbt was going on about that last night Mar 27 15:04:56 ssse3 Mar 27 15:04:56 :P Mar 27 15:04:58 i asked at first about just why sse3 was required Mar 27 15:05:05 and i still fail to see need :) Mar 27 15:05:09 cos everything is built against it, probably Mar 27 15:05:18 i'm a believer in hwcap instead Mar 27 15:05:22 with however millions of potential machines Mar 27 15:05:38 but :) if meego is qt then its not an issue Mar 27 15:05:48 cos people will just write normal qt Mar 27 15:05:59 lcuk: it also means you can't run a meego VM on your computer if you have a AMD processor, for instance Mar 27 15:06:20 Ah the limits of corporate open source Mar 27 15:06:37 well, i've seen equally insane things in free software Mar 27 15:06:44 well once the code drops we can start building against it Mar 27 15:06:49 but i think this one is one that can be worked with Mar 27 15:07:06 lbt seemed a little skeptical Mar 27 15:07:16 so - if someone buys an intel atom netbook Mar 27 15:07:21 it's a few lines in a spec file most likely Mar 27 15:07:27 and a setting in OBS Mar 27 15:07:28 they should be able to natively install meego base on it Mar 27 15:07:32 and develop direct from within it Mar 27 15:07:51 I'm not sure - I wonder which version of the Atom Mar 27 15:08:00 I think you may need Russelville or later Mar 27 15:08:04 But I may be mistaken Mar 27 15:08:22 Just like you won't be able to run on any ARM chip Mar 27 15:08:33 It'll have to be some kind of OMAP3 thingy Mar 27 15:08:33 it really seems silly talking about it from a performance perspective - when on the other hand they say much slower arm processors are fine :) Mar 27 15:08:50 jeremiah_: well, that's assuming a lot too Mar 27 15:09:04 * Stskeeps hopes for armv5, armv6+vfp and armv7 builds Mar 27 15:09:05 :P Mar 27 15:09:06 Stskeeps: So you think it'll run on any IA Atom? Mar 27 15:09:28 Stskeeps: You really think all those will be supported on the ARM platform? Mar 27 15:09:29 jeremiah_: was to the omap3 part Mar 27 15:09:33 yes, they are Mar 27 15:09:40 Already out of the box? Mar 27 15:09:44 armv7 supports armv6+vfp and backwards Mar 27 15:09:53 like debian supports >= armv4t Mar 27 15:10:03 it depends on what you choose as baseline Mar 27 15:10:14 why would you need a meego vm out of interest Mar 27 15:10:16 Or what they choose as a baseline Mar 27 15:10:20 lcuk: testing your stuff Mar 27 15:10:28 jeremiah_: armv7 isn't entirely insane as a baseline Mar 27 15:10:29 lcuk: Well so you can cross compile no? Mar 27 15:10:36 lcuk: test your app directly Mar 27 15:10:39 only for far across Mar 27 15:10:49 Stskeeps: No - it makes sense to me. But hey, who knows what they have up their sleeve Mar 27 15:10:54 im just wondering whether moblin on normal netbook + native compile Mar 27 15:11:00 Because you'll need help from TI or ARM or someone Mar 27 15:11:06 jeremiah_: not really Mar 27 15:11:09 gcc settings Mar 27 15:11:20 ARM kernel drivers? Mar 27 15:11:28 power management Mar 27 15:11:32 All that stuff is TI Mar 27 15:11:34 the shared userland system doesn't care about kernel Mar 27 15:11:42 ARM has instruction sets Mar 27 15:11:42 :P Mar 27 15:12:01 Still, we'll see where they draw the line Mar 27 15:12:34 Some of it will care about the kernel Mar 27 15:12:40 * qgil considers new avatar http://www.flickr.com/photos/quimgil/4466975880/in/photostream/ Mar 27 15:12:58 lols Mar 27 15:13:03 i'm not worried about ARM side because i think nokia is rather neutral towards processors while intel is well, not so processor neutral :) Mar 27 15:13:31 But you need good ARM support for this to be successful Mar 27 15:13:41 So you need someone to do that work Mar 27 15:13:44 i run ubuntu armv5 on my smartq and my n8x0 :P Mar 27 15:13:53 Yeah, see Mar 27 15:14:06 I mean, why won't vendors go with Ubuntu? Mar 27 15:14:18 they muck around too much Mar 27 15:14:18 MeeGo will have to have a compelling ARM story Mar 27 15:14:24 simple as that Mar 27 15:14:31 Otherwise it is just the Nokia netbook distro Mar 27 15:14:44 ubuntu moblin remix thingy isnt there? Mar 27 15:14:46 i agree on the compelling story Mar 27 15:15:01 lcuk: I think Ubuntu has stopped their MID support Mar 27 15:15:01 jeremiah_: because MeeGo's UX will be much better than Ubuntu's? Mar 27 15:15:22 UX is useless unless you can run on ARM Mar 27 15:15:24 we had a pretty nice one in Mer (ARM story): 'want to use ARM? sure! zero difference in developer workflow' Mar 27 15:15:32 MeeGo supports arm... Mar 27 15:15:58 \o/ Mar 27 15:16:12 But which ARM? =) Mar 27 15:16:18 arm, intel > core, and via nano Mar 27 15:16:21 OMAP3 we know for sure Mar 27 15:16:39 jeremiah_: i think once you have armv5 it is trivial to recompile the system for any arm Mar 27 15:16:45 well, ok, vfp support Mar 27 15:16:45 oh cool Mar 27 15:16:48 or any intel Mar 27 15:17:02 since the shared system is open source it doesn't pose much limits Mar 27 15:17:10 How hard is the ssse3 stuff to remove? Mar 27 15:17:12 the interesting part is what the SDK's will built against. Mar 27 15:17:16 jeremiah_: probably modding one spec Mar 27 15:17:33 and asking obs to rebuild the thing Mar 27 15:18:30 will there be obsisms i nthe source, or will it be possible to build using an alternative build system easily (if such a thing exists Mar 27 15:18:53 lcuk: Well, if OBS is GPL, you should be able to re-create it. Mar 27 15:18:58 If it doesn't move too fast Mar 27 15:19:06 lcuk: ideally a package should build both in local build and obs Mar 27 15:19:33 lcuk: could you poke me on that issue again at some point? Mar 27 15:19:40 sure Stskeeps :) Mar 27 15:19:47 cos it's an interesting part of packaging policy Mar 27 15:19:53 Poke him with a flaming barge pole Mar 27 15:20:07 * lcuk has stylus sharpener Mar 27 15:20:21 nano tips :D Mar 27 15:20:58 i best switch on my new toy Mar 27 15:20:58 btw anybody (apart from jeremiah_ ) thinking of proposing a topic for the next TSG meeting? http://wiki.meego.com/TSG_meetings Mar 27 15:21:10 Nejmen, smellyfis?! Ewww Mar 27 15:21:25 * qgil missed that Europe is changing daylight hour and the meeting will start at 23h in Helsinki.... zzzz Mar 27 15:21:46 qgil: chances are we'll all be busy digging through day one released materials and too busy to notice there's a TSG meeting ;) Mar 27 15:21:47 That means 22 in Sweden. Late. Mar 27 15:22:03 Stskeeps: What do you know that I don't know"? Mar 27 15:22:05 Stskeeps: good, this way we will be done in 30 mins ;) Mar 27 15:22:09 heh Mar 27 15:22:13 eep qgil thats late Mar 27 15:22:27 can it be readjusted by the hour? or too late to change right now? Mar 27 15:22:37 jeremiah_: i know my N900 lock code. Mar 27 15:22:40 lcuk: the first one lasted 2h - doing my maths Mar 27 15:22:49 I think we just have a clear agenda and run through the TSG meeting quickly Mar 27 15:22:50 yeah Mar 27 15:23:03 The TSG is no place for the chaos of the "community process" Mar 27 15:23:10 maybe we should have a PR group for all the questions Mar 27 15:23:10 :P Mar 27 15:23:20 PR? Mar 27 15:23:24 Debian has a publicity wing Mar 27 15:23:26 well, or marketing ;) Mar 27 15:23:30 A propaganda wing Mar 27 15:23:46 ok, I was just confused about you mentioning that acronym ;) Mar 27 15:24:22 * lcuk is torn between making a proposal and playing with new toy Mar 27 15:24:26 i think toy wins Mar 27 15:24:31 lcuk: changing time, I guss there is something beautiful in announcing a time and not changing it few days after ;) Mar 27 15:24:34 a spinbot Mar 27 15:24:45 if nobody does, I will propose to move to 19h UTC Mar 27 15:24:46 of course Mar 27 15:24:58 maybe if we run this one at designated time Mar 27 15:25:03 and change it for after Mar 27 15:25:08 yep Mar 27 15:25:08 its evolutionary process Mar 27 15:25:31 That means you'll be left out you single cell ameoba! Mar 27 15:25:47 damn Mar 27 15:25:50 or we could use solar time - at the end "00"s are overrated since NTP exists Mar 27 15:25:56 i have so many lcd screens in front of me now Mar 27 15:26:01 all at different sizes Mar 27 15:26:01 :D Mar 27 15:26:26 Stskeeps, still waiting for mer on cig lighter tho :D Mar 27 15:26:43 lcuk: i'm waiting for the first arm processor in a lighter Mar 27 15:26:44 :P Mar 27 15:27:02 jeremiah_: amoebas are a lot more evolved than us Mar 27 15:27:11 :D Mar 27 15:27:27 jeremiah_: but regarding day one, it's supposed to be end of month Mar 27 15:27:38 31th is probably latest time for that to happen ;) Mar 27 15:28:46 Stskeeps: Well even I knew that. =) Mar 27 15:28:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKz4qVmUz84 Mar 27 15:29:03 oups sorry wrong window Mar 27 15:29:05 qgil: But they don't wear pants so how evolved are they really? Mar 27 15:29:17 jeremiah_: imagine, they don't even need pants Mar 27 15:29:29 Messy Mar 27 15:31:11 koupsa: don't apologize, that video is on topic, since we were discussing amoebas and evolution Mar 27 15:32:53 * qgil wonders why the first "related" video offered by YouTube is "Boys boys boys - Sabrina" Mar 27 15:32:58 :) it will be a nice logon song for meego Mar 27 15:33:00 heh Mar 27 15:33:11 thats your personal playlist quim Mar 27 15:33:32 mine shows futurama ones Mar 27 15:34:36 * Stskeeps is looking forward to futurama starting again Mar 27 15:34:54 :D yeah Mar 27 15:35:07 about evolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HL1IlmEyFo Mar 27 15:35:52 the second option was better than Sabrina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmx3TKFxQvU&NR=1 Mar 27 15:36:15 heh, c64 flashback.. Mar 27 15:36:21 in in #archlinux they have a bot which displays the titles of links :) Mar 27 15:36:26 its a cool little thing Mar 27 15:37:45 * lcuk goes playing with toys Mar 27 15:37:47 qgil, :) like an amiga demo Mar 27 15:41:28 * lcuk rolls eyes at meego password strength (before i go) Mar 27 15:43:15 whatinthefuckinghellareyoutalkingaboutthispasswordissecure Mar 27 15:43:20 is considered low strength Mar 27 15:44:47 it's still all lower case letters, though ;) Mar 27 15:45:06 i'd like to see password crackers attack something of that length tho Mar 27 15:45:12 But a checking algorithm which actually investigated the total number of permutations would be interesting ;) Mar 27 15:45:50 dictionary based checks, that one is... 14 tokens for testing with a few hundred thousand possibilities each, i guess ;) Mar 27 15:46:42 i would like to have iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii or something Mar 27 15:47:07 or Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã…Ã… ;) Mar 27 15:47:27 thats low strength too Mar 27 15:47:32 *nods* :) Mar 27 15:47:57 th1s1sn07 ;) Mar 27 15:48:11 l337 sp33k is useful for something, at least ;) Mar 27 15:48:17 * lcuk finds the shortest strong password Mar 27 15:48:27 .cV1 Mar 27 15:49:51 aA1!2" is high Mar 27 15:49:58 and less secure than my original one Mar 27 15:50:11 Hi guys, is the N900 going to support MeeGo? Mar 27 15:50:19 original is dictionary vulnerable. Mar 27 15:50:31 MrCoder: i take it you've actually looked before asking this? :) Mar 27 15:50:41 MrCoder, depends entirely on how you define "MeeGo" Mar 27 15:50:49 GAN900, most dictionary crackers check 2 maybe 3 word combos Mar 27 15:51:03 Been looking on forums for the past half hour, cant find a yes / no answer :/ Mar 27 15:51:04 not 14 Mar 27 15:51:25 MrCoder: Well, check the meeting minutes from the last TSG meeting, it's in the topic :) Mar 27 15:52:10 wait, no it's not... *frowns* Why it is not in the topic? Mar 27 15:52:24 well, the blog post up there applies as well Mar 27 15:52:47 "What is scheduled to be available then is the first and very raw baseline to a source and binary repository to build MeeGo trunk on Intel ATOM boards and Nokia N900." Mar 27 15:53:04 mrcoder: the answer is yes or don't know depending on what you mean by meego Mar 27 15:53:05 * lcuk wonders where to write down a password so i dont forget it Mar 27 15:54:23 Thanks guys, I was starting to panic for a min, got my N900 2 days ago and stumbled along posts about support being dropped for it. Mar 27 15:54:52 Yeah, that post has caused such a lot of stupid Mar 27 15:55:01 Little confussed thou, there are diffrent types of Meego? Mar 27 15:55:12 haha i tried using the url for my onetime login as a password ( http://meego.com/user/reset/957/1269704401/a823527b0xxxxx988xxxxx42e39fdab4 ) and it says its medium :) Mar 27 15:55:19 (without the xxxxx blocks Mar 27 15:55:19 It emits deadly rays of stupidness Mar 27 15:57:14 \o/ yayyy finally found a password it agrees is high strength Mar 27 15:57:21 * lcuk writes it on a postit Mar 27 15:57:22 qwerty? Mar 27 15:57:23 "lcuk" Mar 27 15:57:26 :D Mar 27 15:57:41 "changeme" Mar 27 15:57:41 its shorter and less personally memorable to me Mar 27 15:58:03 jsa-: What do you mean "depending on what you mean by meego"? Mar 27 15:58:03 but its more secure *rolleyes* Mar 27 15:58:42 * lcuk senses this game will occur frequently Mar 27 15:58:45 MrCoder: he means MeeGo as released by the MeeGo project (free software stack) or MeeGo as shipped by Nokia will all the proprietary whistles Mar 27 15:59:02 (I guess) Mar 27 15:59:24 As far as I was aware they is Maemo 5.0, MeeGo and something called Harmattan? Mar 27 15:59:51 MrCoder: you gut your device 2 days ago, enjoy! :) Mar 27 16:00:02 lol, good point :) Mar 27 16:00:26 If only I could get GTK+2.0 upgraded to 2.8 I would be happy :/ Mar 27 16:00:47 Sorry, 2.1.8 i think Mar 27 16:01:18 Trying to build Mangler (Linux ventrilo client) and failing lol Mar 27 16:01:56 ig GTK+ would reach 2.8 more people than you would be happy, probably :) Mar 27 16:02:14 I guess you mean 2.18 Mar 27 16:03:13 Yeah, I'm pretty noobish on Linux thou, I have managed to break X on 4 SDK images already somehow lol Mar 27 16:05:08 I cant seem to get my head around how you would go about upgrading the esbox / scrachbox GTK, I guess im in the wrong IRC channel thou :) Mar 27 18:04:08 hey Mar 27 18:05:37 hi CosmoHill Mar 27 18:05:59 * CosmoHill is trying to find out what CD he wants for his birthday Mar 27 18:06:17 A Meego CD? Mar 27 18:06:35 that too Mar 27 18:08:16 I'm currently listening to "This is dubstep" Mar 27 18:08:54 dubstep? Mar 27 18:09:09 * Shapeshifter is listening to Dom and Roland - Soundwall Mar 27 18:10:57 * CosmoHill goes for a listen Mar 27 18:13:43 well it's not exactly dubstep ;) Mar 27 18:13:55 but some kind of *step no doubt. Mar 27 18:14:13 sounds like drum and bass Mar 27 18:14:19 whatever it is, i like it so far Mar 27 18:22:45 I'm assuming that if meego is going to support nvidia graphics cards that it was never going to use the open source nvidia driver? Mar 27 18:24:34 If you look at the meego website, you'll see that hw drivers are to be provided by device vendors Mar 27 18:25:22 so if HP sold a laptop with meego it's up to them to install the graphics card drivers before shipping? Mar 27 18:25:30 yes Mar 27 18:25:34 I see Mar 27 18:25:39 makes sense Mar 27 18:34:10 CosmoHill: my guess is that as a user, you can install both drivers anyway. it's just yet another linux Mar 27 18:38:59 I can't remember if I've asked in here or not Mar 27 18:39:16 but does anyone have experience with clusters and / or virtual machines? Mar 27 18:40:24 You might want to state the nature of the problem you're trying to solve rather than the means by which you expect to solve it. Mar 27 18:40:56 Or both, I suppose. Mar 27 18:41:07 qgil: Stskeeps: Mrs Jaffa noticed that it said we were married, but not to whom. Mar 27 18:41:30 qgil: Stskeeps: after 6 years (next week), you'd think she'd've noticed already ;-) Mar 27 18:41:39 erm, I'm gonna be building a cluster for part of my dissertation Mar 27 18:41:45 and maybe using VM machines too Mar 27 18:42:26 What kind of computation? Mar 27 18:42:26 here's a more specific question: what can you do on a cluster that would look good to 16 year olds and demonstrates cluster computing to them? Mar 27 18:42:36 basically something shiny to impress them Mar 27 18:42:41 Povray. Mar 27 18:42:59 pvm can run on pretty much any platform, povray can run on top of that. Mar 27 18:44:59 Povray is also fun for 16 year olds to learn, and pretty much defines the concept of shiny :) Mar 27 18:45:18 awesome Mar 27 18:45:35 the problem I have atm is that the dissertation is far away (september) Mar 27 18:45:50 and different lecturers have different ideas for the cluster Mar 27 18:49:02 Most general-purpose clusters are a waste of time without extremely expensive fast and efficient semi-proprietary busses like Infiniband. Mar 27 18:49:16 Shapeshifter: man, this Dom and Roland is dark! Mar 27 18:50:57 jrayhawk: one lecturer wants it so that we can learn how to program for multiple cores / nodes Mar 27 18:51:11 one wants it so that the mutlimedia students can render their images faster Mar 27 18:51:49 CosmoHill: that's a complete cluster-waste Mar 27 18:52:04 and good evening everyone. Mar 27 18:53:11 hey th0br0 Mar 27 18:54:32 Two separate problems, really. You can find non-symmetric multiprocessing in the form of NUMA on single systems, and multimedia-rendering is going to be application-specific (like pvmpov) anyway, so is best done more cloud-style. Mar 27 19:02:06 http://mjg59.livejournal.com/69392.html always makes me laugh Mar 27 19:04:46 haha jrayhawk Mar 27 19:35:15 * CosmoHill wonders what it would be like to be a system admin Mar 27 19:44:38 qgil: good stuff :) Mar 27 19:45:10 blog? Mar 27 19:53:39 thiago_home: no, I guess drum & bass :) Mar 27 19:53:51 btw, has someone got emails returned from @meego.com mailing lists? Mar 27 19:55:45 what do you mean? Mar 27 20:00:27 * Jaffa is receiving emails to the list; and hasn't got any bounces (AFAHCT) when posting Mar 27 20:00:50 nor I Mar 27 20:02:09 thiago_home: Shapeshifter was saying before that he was listening http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqomBIWx83I - jump to 1:55 if you're impatient Mar 27 20:03:03 texrat has shown me bounces and the funny thing is that the meego.com mail server IP is located in Dallas, (where he lives?) Mar 27 20:04:06 Jaffa: did you have a chance to look at http://wiki.meego.com/Community_working_group ? Mar 27 20:05:48 * thiago_home is watching Tropa de Elite, now on Canal+ Action Mar 27 20:30:43 qgil: Only very briefly. Mother-in-law and youngest child both ill :-( Mar 27 20:31:16 aww Mar 27 20:57:57 Jaffa, unfun. Mar 27 21:49:35 GAN900: Indeed. However, I've got a 6.8G VM image with Fremantle x86/armel, PR1.2, Diablo x86 and Nokia apps ready to test drive for jumpstart thingy in London on April 17. Texrat's updated his flyers with MeeGo stuff and A4 layout too Mar 27 21:50:06 Jaffa, cool. Mar 27 21:51:06 * Jaffa beds. Mar 27 22:00:19 * CosmoHill lampshades Stskeeps Mar 27 22:01:17 not sure what that is :P Mar 27 22:03:25 i think it means to draw attention to something for no reason Mar 27 22:04:05 ah Mar 28 01:25:48 how much longer will we have something to play with Mar 28 01:26:00 probably next week Mar 28 01:26:02 i believe end of march was originally specified as target date Mar 28 01:26:05 yeah Mar 28 01:26:09 given that's the end of march Mar 28 01:35:41 well, we aren't quite to the end of march :) Mar 28 01:39:36 DawnFoster: no, no, my implication was that there's still time until the end, so it'll likely be next week Mar 28 01:39:49 :) Mar 28 01:40:18 Yeah, I was agreeing with you. We still have *days* left :) Mar 28 01:44:47 good luck! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 28 02:59:56 2010