**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 03 02:59:56 2010 May 03 10:14:11 Hi May 03 10:14:38 Any SDK to play around for MeeGo? Or too early to ask? May 03 10:15:47 linuxcentos: you should grab the Nokia Qt SDK; http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/IDEs/Nokia_Qt_SDK/ May 03 10:16:16 hhartz: ok, thx :) May 03 10:16:46 hhartz: no "virtual MeeGo" device? May 03 10:17:04 meego is still being created May 03 10:17:26 mm May 03 10:17:41 linuxcentos: yeah. lots of people are using the N900 as a dev device May 03 10:18:04 hhartz: i see May 03 10:18:23 linuxcentos: what are you planning on developing? May 03 10:18:44 hhartz: just one general question: MeeGo will be suitable for mobile smart phones like Android is? May 03 10:18:59 hhartz: yeah, even though i'm a newbie May 03 10:20:09 maybe stupid quest :( May 03 10:20:47 linuxcentos: well, Android isn't really linux afaik, they have a slightly different kernel May 03 10:21:12 linuxcentos: I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'suiteable for mobile smart phones like android" May 03 10:21:23 linuxcentos: but it will be suitable for mobile phones yes May 03 10:22:08 hhartz: you answered my quest :) May 03 10:26:40 linuxcentos: good :) May 03 10:30:34 i'm interested to play around with apps for MeeGo, but now i don't have N900 May 03 10:30:47 meego also supports x86 May 03 10:30:58 aha, cool May 03 10:31:17 meebo will be in my car pc when ready May 03 10:31:50 a car PC would be more than my car May 03 10:32:00 hey tekojo May 03 10:32:35 i have that effect on people May 03 10:42:05 CosmoHill: if MeeGo supports x86 then VIA board will be perfect for carputers May 03 10:42:07 :) May 03 10:42:44 you overestimate the value of my car :p May 03 10:43:05 i think meego requires SSSE3 still May 03 10:43:20 SSSE3 is required May 03 10:43:33 thiago: no bank hoilday for you? May 03 10:43:40 CosmoHill: hehe May 03 10:46:40 Via Nano supports SSE3 :) May 03 10:46:51 SSSE3* May 03 10:47:54 Really excited about MeeGo May 03 10:54:25 hi May 03 11:47:27 damn mac May 03 11:47:49 you're meant to care when i make mistakes in my program May 03 15:14:27 hi May 03 15:14:31 anybody there ? May 03 15:14:38 hi May 03 15:15:09 hi i was wondering if anybody has any clue about moblin and nvidia proprietary drivers ? May 03 15:16:12 i've installed ubuntu-moblin-remix but i've seen the problem was the same no matter wich plateform moblin is based on, maemo or the original moblin May 03 15:16:39 as there is no ubuntu-moblin-remix channel, i'm obliged to be asking the questino there May 03 15:21:10 jacquesdupontd: i think you need the older nvidia drivers May 03 15:21:23 the current ones ate 9X somethinh May 03 15:21:28 you need the 8x ones i think May 03 15:21:32 but I've never gotten it towkr May 03 15:40:41 heya CosmoHill May 03 15:40:51 hey th0br0 May 03 15:40:55 sup? May 03 15:41:00 programming still May 03 15:41:03 :) May 03 15:41:04 almost done I think May 03 15:41:09 good May 03 15:41:12 nice May 03 15:41:17 I overloaded -- May 03 15:41:24 so player-- will reduces it's score by 1 May 03 15:41:43 but will not go below zero May 03 15:43:45 ^^ May 03 16:18:16 i think my program is going well May 03 16:20:26 works on windows, mac and linux :D May 03 16:41:37 CosmoHill: using Qt? Or plain ISO C++? May 03 16:41:44 just C++ May 03 16:41:47 it's command line May 03 16:42:52 cout and cin then? May 03 16:42:56 yep May 03 16:43:20 CosmoHill: well... Qt can do command line as well, that's what QCoreApplication is for :) May 03 16:43:32 (not saying you must, just pointing out the possibility :) ) May 03 16:43:37 i know the game can be improved a fair bit but it's due in friday May 03 16:43:38 yeah, but not terminal work properly May 03 16:43:45 unless you use the "qout" trick May 03 16:43:59 this is my university assignment May 03 16:48:08 CosmoHill, add an easter egg which has great animated credits and ensure you thank your tutor in big letters - should be worth an extra grade point :D May 03 16:48:31 and invoke it if you run the app with a parameter of "moo" May 03 16:48:50 anyone experimented with doing fibo retrace on bbands? May 03 16:49:02 sorry, wrong window May 03 17:10:22 hi folks :-) May 03 17:11:06 wello May 03 17:11:54 new to this... i just read that the nokia provided n900 images (as opposed to the OSS ones) includes some proprietary software... but the list does not show the PowerVR graphics blobs May 03 17:12:29 that's coming in 1.0 May 03 17:12:37 is this an ommision, or does meegoo not support 3d acceleration on N900 and GMA500 devices May 03 17:12:47 ah, roger :-) May 03 17:13:06 it was just that they werent needed May 03 17:13:21 (so what brings a dane here?) May 03 17:13:28 :-) May 03 17:14:01 my GF's oldest kid just bought an N900, so i figured i better get up to speed on everything relevant to it May 03 17:14:20 hehe May 03 17:14:23 ... as this old slackware rat is probably going to get bombarded with questions about it soon ;-) May 03 17:15:58 http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-April/001972.html tells a bit about how we deal with a open system and closed gles libs May 03 17:16:47 anyhow, you are aiming at the new TTM backed kernel module and the psb DDX that are in the molds at Tungsten, so only the Gallium3D "JIT" will be closed, right? May 03 17:16:52 ah, too late May 03 17:18:04 libs are closed, kernel is open, on n900 May 03 17:18:15 psb is a different nightmare May 03 17:18:43 the idea is to provide them on a repo you get an url for when agreeing to a eula, if you own a n900 May 03 17:18:45 riiight.. i apparently just made a series of assumptions about IA<->ARM May 03 17:19:08 tungsten is no more, vmware bought them May 03 17:19:11 i am fairly intimate with the Xorg stack for a non-programmer/packager May 03 17:19:50 suihkulokki: i know.. i just still refere to Keith's team at VMware as "tungsten graphics".. since its still the same guys May 03 17:19:53 xorg side on n900 is a slightly butchered fbdev drv May 03 17:20:10 O_O May 03 17:20:19 ok, that is not exactly what i expected May 03 17:20:38 but quite well written, so worth looking at the source May 03 17:21:00 my C is more rusty than you can imagine :-/ May 03 17:23:24 anyhow, i will dig into this and deside when i think maemo5 is replaceable with meego May 03 17:23:42 m5's quite good on its own May 03 17:23:58 and meego's a cool project but in its infancy May 03 17:25:10 i gathered as much May 03 17:25:44 but considering a rock solid stack (moblin core) and rock solid toolkit for mobile (qt).. May 03 17:26:25 well, the toolkit's not really enough to have a desktop stack :) May 03 17:26:42 still May 03 17:26:45 it helps :) May 03 17:26:50 i just figured i better stay up to date with the portable/mobile side of things.. as i will probably end up ramming my head against a samba4 client on the n900 sooner or later May 03 17:27:23 we used to have smb support straight in libhildonfm May 03 17:27:29 got removed though May 03 17:27:48 i will need AD support eventually May 03 17:28:13 thats the whole point in fusing a computer with a telephone imho :P May 03 17:35:02 a lot of stuff possible May 03 17:35:35 btw, i know this has probably been asked lots of times, but... any guess on when there will be meego based devices? (specially phones) May 03 17:37:15 depends if you mean ports or products with meego in them May 03 17:37:47 i mean a new device with meego already installed May 03 17:38:19 suy_: most companies don't tell when their devices will be released. May 03 17:38:19 my guess is the end of the year, if meego 1.0 is Q2-2010 May 03 17:39:34 thiago_home: yes, i understand, it's just that i'm eager to buy a new phone, and i don't know if i should wait for a symbian^3 one, or wait even more for a meego one May 03 17:39:57 i just want one with Qt to play a little bit 0:-) May 03 17:40:26 despite the misleading announcements, the N8 is not the first phone with Qt in May 03 17:40:29 there's the N900 May 03 17:42:25 thiago_home, well not until pr1.2 it's not officially supported I think. May 03 17:42:33 even thought you could install it May 03 17:42:35 it still has Qt May 03 17:42:45 and PR1.2 will ship before the N8 (hopefully) May 03 17:42:48 well... technically i can install Qt on my n81 too, but i don't have space in the phone memory May 03 17:43:28 thiago_home, you've been able to install qt demos etc on s60 devices for a long time I think. May 03 17:43:30 if the n900 were more phone (less landscape-based), i'd probably go for the n900 May 03 17:43:49 I think there is even official demos package. May 03 17:49:42 to have QT is different thing than having the native UI written with QT May 03 17:49:55 N900 is GTK and N8 is QT May 03 17:50:26 i doubt the apps on the N8 will be written in Qt (no time to rewrite them) May 03 17:52:34 suy_: s/QT/Qt/ There, i fixed it for you ;) May 03 17:52:39 ehrm... sulx even :P May 03 17:52:44 (damn, fail ;) ) May 03 17:52:55 heh May 03 17:52:57 ok thanks May 03 17:53:04 hehe, i'm very picky with Qt/QT too :) May 03 17:53:06 sulx: N8 is Avkon May 03 17:53:14 N8++ will be Qt May 03 17:53:16 suy_: As you should be :) May 03 17:53:49 ok whatever...;) May 03 17:53:58 I hate symbian... May 03 17:54:20 I don't hate it. I hate having to deal with it. May 03 17:54:31 that too May 03 17:54:35 i'd ride with sybian May 03 17:55:30 symbian is like 80's car with new chromed rim covers May 03 17:55:37 Avkon....errrr May 03 17:55:42 oil changed once May 03 17:55:56 Actually, it is not like that May 03 17:56:24 It does look ok on the outside, once a zillion Nokia engineers spends a year debugging their software May 03 17:56:58 On the inside, though, everything that came on top of the very basic Symbian APIs existing for 10+ years is a bloody mess May 03 17:57:22 The same Avkon for example, almost impossible to program for May 03 17:58:07 Usually comes down to copying examples, laborously found on the Net, exactly, because any tiny change causes the app to crash May 03 17:58:36 And even if your app does not crash for you, it crashes for someone else, with a different phone model or just different firmware May 03 17:59:32 Eikon is kinda usable, except that Nokia broke it, so parts of it do not even work on S60 phones (they worked on UIQ phones though) May 03 18:00:29 Pretty much the only working API there is STDIO, that Nokia implemented in order to satisfy JVM (!!!) requirements (!!!!) May 03 18:01:56 i thought the stdio was a bit broken, atleast considering how it works from python May 03 18:02:00 at least now is open source :) May 03 18:03:16 ShadowJK: comparing ro Symbian's own file access API...mhmm... :) May 03 18:04:36 OpenC is bad too May 03 18:04:44 ANyone has got a Karmic 32bit machine by any chance? May 03 18:04:56 portions of Qt that were written to use OpenC are being rewritten with native Symbian May 03 18:05:07 thiago: I did not even try OpenC as it requires installing additional libraries on many phones May 03 18:05:18 pips May 03 18:05:36 "Pips Isn't Posix for Symbian" May 03 18:05:38 Not feasible commercially May 03 18:06:32 well, Qt depends on it May 03 18:06:51 anyway, Symbian is a Unix system with all the bad habits from Windowssssssssssss May 03 18:07:11 It is not really a Unix syste, May 03 18:07:18 backslashes as path separators, ordinals, declspec(dllexport), no good C library, drives May 03 18:07:29 It is a sand castle built by a bunch of asperger's patients May 03 18:07:34 lol May 03 18:07:46 For two decades, too May 03 18:08:40 people say that they had their reasons to do it like that at that time, no? May 03 18:08:55 you can look at it from another angle, which is a Windows-like system with ELF (-like) binaries May 03 18:09:33 well, yeah, if you look at phones of 8 years ago, they had very little memory, small screens and slow processors May 03 18:09:54 today's smartphones are as powerful as Pentium IIIs May 03 18:11:46 Everybody says he has "reasons" May 03 18:12:11 A lot of time the main reason is the inability to see the larger picture May 03 18:13:39 (typical example: Java :)) May 03 18:14:09 problems with java? May 03 18:14:36 i think java has it's benefits May 03 18:15:49 Last I looked at Symbian (5+ years ago) the binaries weren't ELF at all, they were using a hacked binutils to generate PE/COFF files and then post-processing them with their own script. But all the tools and linkage rules were as for windows, not ELF. May 03 18:16:32 andyross: e32 is ELF-like May 03 18:16:42 it generates ELF binaries, then strips of the symbols and uses ordinals May 03 18:17:32 Maybe things have changed then. But I distinctly remember dealing with the win32-style map files. I'm all but certain they weren't ever generating ELF. May 03 18:20:53 .def files still exist May 03 18:27:31 where do i get the latest SDK install files from? are they whats offered direct from qt.nokia.com/downloads - or somewhere else (I mean the one with the simulator for n900 etc) May 03 18:28:18 the 2010.02 release is whats offered in the lgpl link May 03 18:29:18 that's the Qt SDK. The Nokia Qt SDK is in forum.nokia.com somewhere May 03 18:29:59 http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/IDEs/Nokia_Qt_SDK/ May 03 18:31:00 well i thought as much thiago_home, thanks suy_ \o you are a gent May 03 18:31:07 (or a lady) May 03 18:31:30 the url doesnt roll off the tongue as easily tho May 03 18:31:43 yes, quite a long URL May 03 18:32:24 thiago_home, how come the beta is so hidden away? May 03 18:33:16 as RST38h said, everyone has "reasons" May 03 18:34:44 * lcuk never saw that comment, just got back from tea May 03 18:35:32 it was in an unrelated subject May 03 18:35:43 there are some reasons not to make a big splash about this now May 03 18:36:08 but all of twitter went gaga? May 03 18:36:53 and we have had folks in #maemo wanting to do same May 03 18:37:02 (just pasted into maemo lol) May 03 18:37:42 thiago_home, i got multicast working in python nicely May 03 18:37:48 cool May 03 18:38:00 anyway, marketing needs to relearn how to work now with twitter May 03 18:38:05 you can't bury news May 03 18:38:32 well people are excited ! its an open platform May 03 18:38:42 indeed May 03 18:38:49 but I guess the point is that it's not finished May 03 18:39:04 linux developers dont come to see a masterpiece May 03 18:39:10 they come because they want to help build the barn May 03 18:39:29 agreed, but again, this is corporate marketing May 03 18:39:51 they are thinking of partner companies, journalists, investors and the Symbian Foundation (and its members) May 03 18:42:06 we got another community app filling in the maemo pieces starting at the moment May 03 18:42:27 a few people have started a vertical sms app to complement the system :) May 03 18:43:38 lcuk: more interested in the app manager replacement though =) May 03 18:44:01 RST38h, the one that works on 810 too? May 03 18:44:23 dunno, the one that works =) May 03 18:44:41 wheres a link to the thread? May 03 18:45:45 RST38h: btw, the other day you were looking for people who know Qt. Try #qt next time :-) May 03 18:47:15 thiago; Oh, I found what I wanted May 03 18:47:24 thiago: Actually not entirely, but ok May 03 18:48:04 RST38h, is it the telescope project? May 03 18:48:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7xVOC8zI8o May 03 18:48:30 lcuk: No, don't think so, appdownloader I think May 03 18:48:48 thiago: I still cannot figure out how to use Qt SDK to create a resiable rotatable UI May 03 18:48:54 ohhhh gawd yeah im thinking completely different May 03 18:48:58 thiago: the top window seems to require fixed size May 03 18:49:36 RST38h, set window to be fullscreen, when window resize occurs adjust your content? May 03 18:50:23 content should be adjusted automatically if you use layouts (assuming you have widgets) May 03 18:50:45 RST38h, http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/appdownloader/0.1-2/ from danielwilms written in qt May 03 18:50:49 interfaces with maemo.org May 03 18:50:56 RST38h: nor do I. My apps don't have UIs, much less that rotate. May 03 18:51:06 yea, that is it, but has too many bugs right now May 03 18:51:07 http://danielwilms.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/download-assistant-for-extras-applications/ May 03 18:51:14 yeah but the principle is bang on May 03 18:51:26 only end product matters May 03 19:00:59 the Nokia SDK beta installation, do i need to uninstall every other qt sdk i have prior to starting? May 03 19:05:30 no May 03 19:06:10 cool beans May 03 19:07:04 in the future, it should be possible to download extra components May 03 19:07:24 like a MeeGo sysroot and toolchain May 03 19:09:19 hey, did you know on the EULA for the nokia qt setup wizard on my desktop, the list of open source licenses link opens up blank, and also the link to the EULA itself opens blank window - hence accepting the terms is cool for all uses? May 03 19:09:28 (first step of installing) May 03 19:09:37 it says that source is available for 3 years May 03 19:09:55 but when i click the links within a text editor opens up with blank document May 03 19:11:13 * lcuk wonders why the eulas point to a secondary location instead of just listing the eula terms in the eula text box itself May 03 20:25:44 anyone here? May 03 20:26:08 I'm wondering about repo.meego.com May 03 20:26:19 I wanted to get the source package for the distrp May 03 20:26:21 distro May 03 20:30:32 * CosmoHill stares at jedix May 03 20:30:51 Aren't you a kids tv channel i used to watch? May 03 20:35:19 negative May 03 21:20:47 nite all, sweet dreams May 03 21:22:02 hi) how are you?) May 03 21:33:39 so is there an rsync site for the devel branch yet? May 03 21:52:45 th0br0: you about? May 03 23:14:58 Time for bed. Cyas! May 03 23:22:31 good morning May 03 23:25:11 Will Meego be compatible with Poulsbo devices? May 03 23:44:20 what's the delay on putting up the UX code onto gitorious? May 04 01:39:57 we need a "car mode" ofono plugin May 04 01:40:24 that sends an auto-response when you are in car-mode (ie, "don't talk to me I'm driving") May 04 01:59:57 tripzero: does ofono do anything useful at present? May 04 02:01:08 TSCHAKeee, i believe so May 04 02:01:17 TSCHAKeee, sends sms'es and makes calls? :P May 04 02:01:21 does it? May 04 02:01:27 yes May 04 02:01:27 but i admit i've only seen it work with phonesim May 04 02:01:46 :/ May 04 02:01:47 but yes, it makes phone calls and sends/recv sms May 04 02:02:57 ok May 04 02:03:06 shit. I am completely broke now May 04 02:03:12 took three months May 04 02:03:21 and i've got bills due May 04 02:03:26 *facepalm* May 04 02:03:32 paying too much for pr0n? May 04 02:04:22 not funny. May 04 02:04:29 last contract ended in march May 04 02:04:37 attached to 7 agencies May 04 02:04:43 calling them twice a week May 04 02:04:47 nothing. May 04 02:04:53 oh, that does suck May 04 02:04:57 sorry about that May 04 02:04:59 if i could build a fucking time machine May 04 02:05:07 and tell myself to NOT go into that side line of web work May 04 02:05:10 i would May 04 02:05:21 it has been a fucking plague on my whole damn resume May 04 02:05:30 I have a flux capacitor, would you like to borrow it? May 04 02:05:35 yes please. May 04 02:05:47 i also have weapons grade plutonium May 04 02:05:49 to power it May 04 02:06:03 tripzero, heh :P May 04 02:06:42 But anyway, in all seriousness, I'm sorry to hear about all this TSCHAKeee. May 04 02:06:56 i just May 04 02:06:59 need a job May 04 02:07:01 anything :( May 04 02:07:06 i don't have much use for it these days anyway... countries now insist on making their own. thanks iran May 04 02:07:48 TSCHAKeee, If something on your resume is letting you down, why not just not include it on there? May 04 02:08:18 because the last decade May 04 02:08:24 has been dominated by it on my resume May 04 02:08:39 i'm a polymath.. have done a WHOLE bunch of different things May 04 02:08:45 but professionally, I look like a web guy May 04 02:09:13 nevermind I started designing my own computers when I was 7 (first one was a little Z80 machine) May 04 02:09:28 or that i've spent time as a professional musician and recording engineer May 04 02:09:42 Ah. Well, wiping a whole decade off your resume probably wouldn't be the best idea in finding a job. May 04 02:10:18 (or a whole host of other things that I did just because...well.. it was fun) May 04 02:11:07 TSCHAKeee, why not become an iPhone programmer. Isn't that the new "hot" programming job that is franticly looking for people? :P May 04 02:11:26 i have been trying but people have been looking for "experience" May 04 02:11:29 nevermind May 04 02:11:34 that I do have Cocoa, and NeXTSTEP on my list May 04 02:11:40 and that I had been dealing with both since 1990 May 04 02:11:53 but no, i haven't spent 5 years developing iPhone apps May 04 02:12:03 (oh yes, people are putting that on their resumes) May 04 02:12:43 Why not try going into a junior programming job? (ones that accept people with no field experience, normally the ones taken by people fresh out of college/uni) May 04 02:12:49 (nobody knows that Cocoa came from OpenStep, which came from NeXTSTEP, all of which share the same damn toolkit, same damn language.) May 04 02:13:04 I am trying for anything May 04 02:15:09 Nokias hiring i heard :P May 04 02:15:35 Finland and Australia though (AFAIK) :P **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue May 04 03:00:01 2010