**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 30 02:59:56 2010
May 30 03:06:11 <breakd0wn> i used to hate the word meego, but after looking around the site and seeing all the cool little cartoon guys. It kinda fits
May 30 04:10:42 <Termana> Miguel de Icaza to the rescue on the mailing list
May 30 04:10:54 <Termana> Mono rescue*
May 30 04:11:37 <Termana> I thought he worked for Microsoft though, but he is using a novell email address, so I guess not :P
May 30 04:32:39 <microlith> let me guess, he's defending mono against "bs" concerns regarding patents
May 30 05:07:46 <kisse> hola
May 30 05:27:55 <th0br0> gday
May 30 05:31:05 <kisse> hardly "good" :(  I really wish I could figure out how to configure the power options on MeeGo
May 30 07:48:19 <lbt> o/
May 30 07:50:12 <Termana> hey lbt
May 30 07:50:33 <lbt> what a nice sunny morning :)
May 30 07:51:37 <pupnik> we got some happy rain
May 30 07:52:22 <pupnik> love it when it rains at night and I wake up to a freshly cleaned world
May 30 07:53:35 <lbt> ....and wet cats
May 30 07:53:58 <lbt> "IM WET AND HUNGRY FEEEEDZ ME!!!"
May 30 07:54:12 <lbt> "bugger off - it's 6am"
May 30 08:33:31 <sivang> morning everybody
May 30 08:33:48 <sivang> lbt: hehe
May 30 08:34:07 <sivang> lbt: the cat ran out while it was raining ?
May 30 08:39:06 <lbt> sivang: seems like every time it rains.... soggy cat
May 30 08:39:28 <sivang> lbt: hehe, you in the UK?
May 30 08:39:44 <lbt> how did you guess ;)
May 30 08:40:00 <sivang> lbt: you're wonderful choice of words, and attitude :-)
May 30 08:40:05 <sivang> lbt: I love the UK
May 30 08:40:13 <sivang> lbt: I wish I could be there for a while.
May 30 08:40:26 <lbt> yeah, it's a nice place
May 30 08:40:43 <sivang> lbt: bugger off is one of the nicest expression that had be concieved by human language.
May 30 08:40:53 <sivang> lbt: it encompasses so many in it.
May 30 08:41:04 <lbt> especially when said by a northerner
May 30 08:44:54 <pupnik> i thought the soggy cat gave it away
May 30 08:45:20 <janne_oksanen> has anyone had problems extracting the sdk? After a while of extracing a ton of files I get a:
May 30 08:45:31 <janne_oksanen> tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors
May 30 08:45:53 <janne_oksanen> I can't see any errors right above that
May 30 08:46:42 <janne_oksanen> not within as far as I can scroll back anyway
May 30 08:48:00 <Frye> Disk full? You could redirect the output of the tar process to a file (with stderr too) and see if that reveals the reason.
May 30 08:48:33 <janne_oksanen> disk is not full, or even close
May 30 08:48:45 <janne_oksanen> I guess I make an error log file then
May 30 08:49:02 <Frye> That is the easiest way. As the real error can be quite deep in the log
May 30 08:52:04 <Vortiago> janne_oksanen, got the same error myself. But the sdk seems to work none-the-less
May 30 08:52:22 <janne_oksanen> Vortiago: I was thinking that it might be nothing
May 30 08:52:44 <janne_oksanen> so far the only errors I'm getting are due to files already existing
May 30 08:52:50 <Vortiago> ye
May 30 08:57:19 <janne_oksanen> and this time it went cleanly through
May 30 08:57:41 <janne_oksanen> oh wait, the last message went into the log too
May 30 09:02:42 <gour> does meego work under vm (vbox) ?
May 30 09:05:01 <janne_oksanen> hmmm... startmeego doesn't appear to have started the Meego desktop
May 30 09:05:13 <janne_oksanen> I'm just getting a black box
May 30 09:08:16 <janne_oksanen> owell, will have to get back to debugging this later
May 30 09:08:20 <bogie11> i had same kind of problems.
May 30 09:08:38 <janne_oksanen> did you get it running eventuallt?
May 30 09:08:52 <bogie11> well i switched to other console and ran startx
May 30 09:08:57 <bogie11> it started twm
May 30 09:09:45 <bogie11> i had weird problem, it kept switching after few seconds back to blank page. maybe because of some watchdog
May 30 09:10:14 <janne_oksanen> k, thanks
May 30 10:21:57 * gour is installing meego on under vbox
May 30 10:31:18 <gour> well, i got it working (with the help from the forum), but having twm is not thrilling :-/
May 30 10:34:58 <Vortiago> gour, what did you do to get it working?
May 30 10:35:12 <gour> Vortiago: xorg & twm :-/
May 30 10:35:24 <Vortiago> ah
May 30 10:36:22 <gour> quite disappointed in comparison with moblin experience
May 30 10:37:18 <gour> the only 'advantage' is that meego can be properly shutdown :-D
May 30 10:39:11 <CosmoHill> gour: what version of meego? 1.0 or 0.1 ?
May 30 10:39:37 <gour> CosmoHill: 1.0-chromium
May 30 10:39:53 <CosmoHill> this virtualbox 3.2?
May 30 10:42:54 <gour> CosmoHill: yes
May 30 10:44:44 <Vortiago> gour, then it's onwards to finding the startup-script and make changes so that the normal desktop runs
May 30 10:51:40 <CosmoHill> hey thiago
May 30 10:54:59 <gour> Vortiago: i'm not sure it can work due to 3d accel. stuff
May 30 10:55:54 * CosmoHill wonders if anyone has vmware workstation / player
May 30 10:57:31 <gour> Vortiago: check http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=202 thread
May 30 13:01:46 <marquinos> Hi! Please, which installer is using MeeGo?
May 30 13:02:20 <CosmoHill> what do you want to install it on?
May 30 13:02:53 <marquinos> CosmoHill, I only want the name of the application
May 30 13:03:17 <marquinos> it isn't debian installer, isn't it?
May 30 13:03:29 <CosmoHill> i don't think so since meego uses rpm
May 30 13:04:01 <marquinos> I would localize it :)
May 30 13:04:15 <marquinos> is Red Hat? is Suse?....
May 30 13:04:28 <blabla> hi
May 30 13:04:51 <blabla> Is here anyone who have meego on his eeePC 1000H ?
May 30 13:05:22 <CosmoHill> does it support SSSE3?
May 30 13:05:39 <CosmoHill> blabla: your device is supported
May 30 13:06:09 * lcuk installs meego on CosmoHill and hopes his brainstem supports SSSE3
May 30 13:06:38 <blabla> That's nice, but my wi-fi doesn't work.
May 30 13:06:52 * CosmoHill starts to drool
May 30 13:07:07 <lcuk> nice fast 2d rendered drool i hope
May 30 13:07:09 <lcuk> 3d
May 30 13:08:31 <th0br0> :D
May 30 13:08:33 <th0br0> hello everyone
May 30 13:08:37 <CosmoHill> hey th0br0
May 30 13:08:47 <blabla> I set my wi-fi connection and hit connect but seems nothing is happening.
May 30 13:14:56 <blabla> any ideas?
May 30 13:15:27 <CosmoHill> broadcom wiif?
May 30 13:16:17 <blabla> ralink
May 30 13:48:01 <CosmoHill> lcuk: you watching the F1?
May 30 13:48:24 <CosmoHill> dude is waving an ipad about
May 30 13:49:36 <lcuk> CosmoHill, couldnt care less about ipad tbh unless i can install regular linux
May 30 13:49:47 <lcuk> ive had a 12" slate for the last 18 months
May 30 13:50:08 <CosmoHill> if i had an ipad I'd be like "yay i have an ipad...now what?"
May 30 13:50:15 <lcuk> exactly
May 30 13:50:29 <CosmoHill> the ipad doesn't meet my requirments
May 30 13:50:38 <lcuk> hardware wise it kinda does
May 30 13:50:51 <CosmoHill> irc + touch screen? no thanks
May 30 13:50:52 <lcuk> but not being able to write on it with anything more delicate than a sausage is fail
May 30 13:51:41 <CosmoHill> it's like people who have iphones
May 30 13:52:25 <lcuk> really old photo: http://liqbase.net/liqbase_big.JPG
May 30 13:52:47 <CosmoHill> what the
May 30 13:53:29 <lcuk> :) thats the original liqbase running on both my n810 and the x41
May 30 13:53:47 <lcuk> once i knew that worked i started on the new liqbase framework
May 30 13:54:41 <CosmoHill> I saw an N900 yesterday, a lot thinker than I thought they'd be
May 30 13:55:04 <lcuk> yeah its a bit deeper than my 810 was
May 30 13:55:13 <lcuk> and didnt fit in my crate properly
May 30 13:57:46 <CosmoHill> I'd like it if nokia has a page that sony does
May 30 13:58:01 <lcuk> ?
May 30 13:58:06 <CosmoHill> where you go onto their website, enter your phone number and select your network
May 30 13:58:13 <CosmoHill> then they send settings to your phone
May 30 13:58:38 <lcuk> which phone are you having trouble with
May 30 13:58:47 <CosmoHill> 6220c
May 30 13:58:56 <lcuk> and providers are meant to periodically resend details anyway
May 30 13:59:04 <lcuk> cant you request it from your provider..
May 30 13:59:17 <CosmoHill> it's an O2 phone on the vodafone network
May 30 13:59:59 <lcuk> when you break the walled garden you are on your own :p
May 30 14:00:09 <lcuk> ask vodaphone
May 30 14:01:16 <CosmoHill> i did
May 30 14:01:28 <CosmoHill> they go "please select your phone" and then don't list mine
May 30 14:01:59 <lcuk> shit happens :P why would you expect nokia to know if your own provider doesnt
May 30 14:02:09 <lcuk> since nokia would have to get the information from the provider
May 30 14:02:24 <lcuk> you are going off piste
May 30 14:02:29 <lcuk> try selecting a similar phone
May 30 14:03:59 <CosmoHill> in theory i should be able to select any phone
May 30 14:09:27 <lcuk> CosmoHill, and you should also have a pony
May 30 14:09:47 <CosmoHill> my aunty has a horse, does that count?
May 30 14:10:29 <Termana> <lcuk> but not being able to write on it with anything more delicate than a sausage is fail
May 30 14:10:45 <Termana> oh noes what will lcuk ever do when Nokia is using capacitive screens!
May 30 14:11:31 <lcuk> Termana, what will nokians do when they cant use their nokias with capacitive screens in the cold?
May 30 14:12:17 <lcuk> what will the hong kong/eastern countries do when they cant do HWR with fingers
May 30 14:12:45 <Termana> Call Ghost Busters?
May 30 14:12:51 <lcuk> sure, theres a fad for capacitive, but its not the answer to everything
May 30 14:13:16 <Termana> sure, but Nokia has said they will be making Harmattan and on devices capacitive
May 30 14:13:41 <lcuk> sure and it will work rly rly well
May 30 14:13:54 <lcuk> and loads of apps will play nicely on them :D (mine included)
May 30 14:14:11 <Termana> Sure, but what are YOU going to do?
May 30 14:14:23 <lcuk> i still write on my 810
May 30 14:14:37 <lcuk> i never stopped
May 30 14:14:42 <Termana> Isn't Nokia like almost the only company still making anything resistive? :P
May 30 14:15:23 <Termana> only company == only major company
May 30 14:15:46 <lcuk> Termana, the nintendo ds..
May 30 14:16:04 <Termana> lcuk, I mean more in the smartphone/mobile computing arena
May 30 14:16:28 <lcuk> ds big
May 30 14:16:57 * Termana notes lcuk avoiding the answer "yes" :P
May 30 14:17:00 <lcuk> Termana, doesnt bother me, apps still work
May 30 14:17:34 <pupnik> capacitive is inferior tech for inferior minds
May 30 14:17:47 <Termana> lcuk, sure, but didn't you just say you didn't like capacitive. Your going to be practically forced to use it
May 30 14:17:59 <pupnik> like laptops with glossy screens
May 30 14:18:05 <Termana> Doesn't that... boil your bubble or something like that?
May 30 14:18:15 <lcuk> not at all
May 30 14:18:28 <Termana> So its all... chip chip cherio?
May 30 14:18:30 <lcuk> finger friendly ui is great for lots of things
May 30 14:20:02 <pupnik> if you have a hardware keyboard, which is better, you can use a resistive screen
May 30 14:20:20 <Termana> Just as an aside, HTC put out a resistive touchscreen smartphone - after doing so, they said they would never do it again
May 30 14:20:36 <pupnik> did it have a keyboard
May 30 14:20:55 <pupnik> now we learned something, didnt we
May 30 14:21:08 <Termana> pupnik, I don't know to be honest, it didn't interest me to read to far into it
May 30 14:21:22 <Termana> pupnik, when you crush cornflakes it turns into milk?
May 30 14:21:34 <Termana> Is that what we learnt?
May 30 14:21:37 <CosmoHill> lcuk: done :)
May 30 14:23:03 <Termana> pupnik, I don't see what your point is anyway. Keyboard or no keyboard how does that make a difference
May 30 14:24:21 <pupnik> because people who type on a screen need a different screen behavior than people who click on a screen or tap urls on a screen
May 30 14:24:22 <CosmoHill> bollocks
May 30 14:24:37 <CosmoHill> home page was wrong and it cost me money :(
May 30 14:30:38 <lcuk> CosmoHill, lol
May 30 14:30:59 <CosmoHill> Welcome to O2, that will be 50p please
May 30 14:31:02 <lcuk> normally its mms config thats sent!
May 30 14:31:18 <CosmoHill> i went on the browser and the homepage is set to O2
May 30 14:31:19 <lcuk> i never used internet on tinyphones
May 30 14:31:43 <CosmoHill> whenever I go online with my phone it's teathered to my laptop
May 30 14:35:02 <ivarela> hi
May 30 14:36:00 <ivarela> when using Meego in Applications / Settings / Languages, I've found an error. Which is the template translation to fix it?
May 30 14:40:26 <CosmoHill> now to get it working with my mac
May 30 14:42:16 <CosmoHill> hmm
May 30 14:42:24 <CosmoHill> the nokia 6220c isn't on the UK website :/
May 30 14:44:08 <Zapp> hi everyone
May 30 14:46:46 <CosmoHill> hi
May 30 14:54:01 <Zapp> sometimes I lose my wifi conection, randomly (I've tried it with diferent acces points), my netbook is a eee 1000H wich comes with a ralink 2860sta ...any way to solve this, maybe a new module (even if its propietary)
May 30 14:54:01 * CosmoHill dances cos he has 3G working on his nokia from his mac
May 30 14:57:38 <pupnik> nice hotspot app eh CosmoHill
May 30 14:59:14 <CosmoHill> http://raoulpop.com/2008/10/24/use-a-nokia-n95-as-a-bluetooth-modem-on-a-mac/
May 30 15:00:19 <pupnik> ohh
May 30 15:06:49 <vgrade> meego 1.0 on GMA500 based O2 Joggler with touch, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUiSnITKeRY
May 30 15:08:18 <TSCHAKeee2> vgrade: am guessing you shoehorned IEGD onto it?
May 30 15:10:01 <CosmoHill> meego looks sweet
May 30 15:10:05 <CosmoHill> i want >.<
May 30 15:10:14 <pupnik> would help if it had a descriptive title
May 30 15:20:28 <vgrade> long way to go here, but yes this is using old X as it must without 1.7 support from IEGD
May 30 15:20:59 <vgrade> anyone know when the new driver is out, someone mentioned it was not called someting else
May 30 15:22:14 <vgrade> eigd?
May 30 15:22:20 <vgrade> emgd?
May 30 15:31:26 <TSCHAKeee2> yeah, they renamed it
May 30 15:31:29 <TSCHAKeee2> but i dunno to what
May 30 15:31:32 <TSCHAKeee2> :/
May 30 15:43:48 <Abhijeet> Hi guys.
May 30 15:44:37 <Abhijeet> I want to develop applications for Meego. To do so do I need to install the latest meego release or there are other ways to do so?
May 30 15:45:24 <Stskeeps> meego sdk exists
May 30 15:45:36 <Stskeeps> but look into the qt sdk stuff
May 30 15:46:15 <Abhijeet> Stskeeps: i have downloaded the sdk... but there is nothing call Meego project in it.
May 30 15:47:40 <Abhijeet> there is no tutorial on meego site just like android have videos explaining from scratch about application development on android.
May 30 15:48:51 <Stskeeps> :nod: agreed
May 30 15:49:01 <Stskeeps> i think this is under development.
May 30 15:50:57 <Abhijeet> Stskeeps: let say, i have created normal project using Qt as it is done for linux os... then how we can package or test it if it is working fine on meego enviroment.
May 30 15:51:26 <Abhijeet> is there any meego simulator there?
May 30 15:51:39 <Stskeeps> there is one .. sec
May 30 15:51:43 <CosmoHill> you can chroot into meego
May 30 15:52:44 <Stskeeps> Abhijeet: actually, ask those questions on meego-dev mailing list. they're better at giving straight answerd
May 30 15:52:47 <Stskeeps> s
May 30 15:52:57 <Stskeeps> Abhijeet: you're a typical developer story so
May 30 15:54:01 <Abhijeet> let me try there.... I think nokia and intel started this project in hurry...
May 30 15:56:58 <Stskeeps> yes and no, i just think the sdk stuff isnt 100 percent out yet. its supposed to glue in with qt creator
May 30 15:57:56 <Stskeeps> http://wiki.meego.com/Developer_Guide
May 30 16:20:20 <Abhijeet> Stskeeps: thanks.
May 30 16:21:17 <Stskeeps> np
May 30 16:52:42 <reenignEesreveR> i downloaded a CD image but it seems like a pretty normal linux distro ... i wanna see some eye-candy interfaces ... how can i do that?
May 30 16:55:43 <CosmoHill> huh?
May 30 16:56:34 <arjan> what did you download?
May 30 16:56:45 <CosmoHill> hey arjan
May 30 16:56:48 <arjan> morning
May 30 16:58:14 <reenignEesreveR> arjan, meego-1.0-preview-ivi-noemgd-201005121943.iso
May 30 16:58:30 <thiago_home> ivi = in-vehicle infotainment
May 30 16:58:49 <arjan> reenignEesreveR: that's just a core OS build
May 30 16:58:54 <arjan> not a netbook/UI build
May 30 16:59:06 <arjan> if you want to see the UI, get the netbook build
May 30 16:59:12 <reenignEesreveR> ok
May 30 16:59:31 <reenignEesreveR> btw does the netbook build have touch support in UI?
May 30 16:59:37 <arjan> not really
May 30 16:59:37 <reenignEesreveR> i mean, is it finger friendly?
May 30 16:59:47 <arjan> again.. not really
May 30 16:59:54 <arjan> for that we'll have the meego touch framework in meego 1.1
May 30 17:00:11 <reenignEesreveR> are you guys planning to use hildon or something else?
May 30 17:00:18 <Stskeeps> by god, i hope not ;)
May 30 17:00:20 <arjan> nope a QT based architecture
May 30 17:00:22 <thiago_home> no hildon
May 30 17:00:24 <CosmoHill> reenignEesreveR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUiSnITKeRY
May 30 17:01:30 <bogie11> is there already working DUI packages, i think that i saw it somewhere?
May 30 17:01:36 <reenignEesreveR> CosmoHill, thats cool ... how can i try that out? :P
May 30 17:01:46 <arjan> some of it is in gitorious
May 30 17:01:55 <arjan> but I have to say that it's still quite rough around the edges
May 30 17:02:04 <arjan> that's why it's aimed at 1.1
May 30 17:02:07 <Billius> How does composition work with Meego? do you use OpenGL ES for hwa composition?
May 30 17:02:18 <thiago_home> OpenGL ES is used in most configurations
May 30 17:02:20 <arjan> on netbook we use openGL for composition
May 30 17:02:21 <thiago_home> OpenGL where available
May 30 17:02:26 <arjan> openGL-es is for handset
May 30 17:02:33 <arjan> it's a per-device-category thing
May 30 17:02:36 <Stskeeps> vgrade: i'm actually amazed the netbook ux can work sortof on the iegd configuration
May 30 17:02:40 <arjan> tablets likely will be openGL for example
May 30 17:02:53 <arjan> Stskeeps: it does? last we tested it fell rather appart badly
May 30 17:02:58 <Stskeeps> arjan: well, watch the video :P
May 30 17:03:00 <Billius> any plans to use OpenWF-composition for lower power?
May 30 17:03:12 <vgrade> stskeeps, yes you said it as not possible earlier :)
May 30 17:03:18 <Stskeeps> that CosmoHill just linked - joggler's a gma500 and we hacked iegd onto meego
May 30 17:03:52 <Stskeeps> hm
May 30 17:03:58 <Stskeeps> seems like it's falling apart a little bit still
May 30 17:04:02 <thiago_home> OpenWF is one of several technologies we're looking at in Qt
May 30 17:04:05 <thiago_home> OpenKODE too
May 30 17:04:05 <Stskeeps> but then again, it's on top of a nasty hack
May 30 17:04:10 * TSCHAKeee2 read that as OpenWTF
May 30 17:04:21 <arjan> meego requires opengl/es anyway
May 30 17:04:23 <arjan> so why not use it
May 30 17:04:25 <thiago_home> TSCHAKeee2: happened to me the first time too :-)
May 30 17:04:31 <TSCHAKeee2> heheh
May 30 17:04:41 <thiago_home> Billius: but, no, for the moment X is used, so GLX is available.
May 30 17:04:45 <arjan> thiago_home: btw I'd like to talk to you abuot qt timers some time ;)
May 30 17:05:04 <TSCHAKeee2> so, just to be sure, the first UX built atop Qt will be the Handset UX?
May 30 17:05:18 <thiago_home> arjan: before you do, try running the app/test without the glib mainloop (export QT_NO_GLIB=1)
May 30 17:05:30 <arjan> thiago: more API like things
May 30 17:05:35 <thiago_home> ok
May 30 17:05:36 <CosmoHill> hey trem
May 30 17:05:38 <arjan> want to have range timers as an api
May 30 17:05:48 <arjan> and as well as a "seconds" API that rounds internally (like I did for glib)
May 30 17:05:49 <thiago_home> range timers? As in they fire for a while then auto shutdown?
May 30 17:05:54 <arjan> no
May 30 17:06:06 <arjan> more like "I want a timer between 5 and 7 seconds from now"
May 30 17:06:18 <arjan> and then within that 2 second window it coalesces with other existing timers
May 30 17:06:28 <thiago_home> and then fire at the first oportunity that a timer is already set?
May 30 17:06:30 <Billius> I'm new to X so I need to look into how it backends onto the hardware for composition. Obviously if you are using GPU for UI anyway then you can use it for composition. However for full screen video with some blended overlays it would be better to use alpha blending hardware in LCD controller or OpenVG h/w if present
May 30 17:06:31 <arjan> rather than the current "I want a timer 5.0000000000 seconds from now"
May 30 17:06:33 <arjan> thiago: yup
May 30 17:06:42 <thiago_home> ok, I see
May 30 17:06:48 <thiago_home> coarse timer
May 30 17:07:03 <thiago_home> do you need to specify how coarse?
May 30 17:07:19 <arjan> for glib I added an API that takes "seconds" only
May 30 17:07:23 <arjan> and rounds behind the apps back
May 30 17:07:35 <thiago_home> without letting the app specify how to round?
May 30 17:07:37 <arjan> in fact, it rounds such that all apps in the system that use seconds, round to the same poinmts
May 30 17:07:45 <arjan> (for recurring timers)
May 30 17:08:02 <arjan> basically what I did for glib, was pick a point inside the second
May 30 17:08:13 <arjan> which is the same point for all apps in the system
May 30 17:08:19 <arjan> and then "seconds" timers round to that point
May 30 17:08:34 <arjan> and once you're on that point, obviously recurring timers will stay on that point
May 30 17:08:39 <lcuk> is qildon being used
May 30 17:08:41 <thiago_home> is that point inside the second fixed, or is it random per app?
May 30 17:08:47 <thiago_home> lcuk: no
May 30 17:08:49 <lcuk> and whatever happened to qtablet
May 30 17:08:49 <arjan> it's the same within the system
May 30 17:08:52 <Stskeeps> lcuk: qildon is just to add qt widgets in hildon desktop
May 30 17:08:54 <arjan> but different between systems
May 30 17:09:01 <arjan> (basically a hash of a session env var)
May 30 17:09:09 <lcuk> is that code around ?
May 30 17:09:18 <Stskeeps> lcuk: right
May 30 17:09:23 <thiago_home> arjan: why not just stick to a constant section fraction of the monotonic timer?
May 30 17:09:24 <arjan> by making it the same within the system, all apps group their background work timers to the same point
May 30 17:09:27 <lcuk> cos that worked nicely on 8x0
May 30 17:09:35 <lcuk> or so the video showed
May 30 17:09:40 <thiago_home> arjan: the monotonic clock isn't shared between systems
May 30 17:09:50 <arjan> that could have worked I suppose
May 30 17:10:03 <lcuk> Stskeeps, by right its around? do you have url
May 30 17:10:09 <arjan> so yeah that'd work too
May 30 17:10:17 <arjan> as long as not all devices on the internet do the same one ;-)
May 30 17:10:21 <thiago_home> Qt already uses the monotonic clock, so the simplest is to just use a known value of the seconds fraction
May 30 17:10:24 <thiago_home> like 0
May 30 17:10:24 <Stskeeps> lcuk: qtablet is around somewhere, google for it, qildon too
May 30 17:10:28 <arjan> thiago: yup
May 30 17:10:39 <trem> hey CosmoHill
May 30 17:10:44 <thiago_home> sounds easy and doable
May 30 17:10:45 <lcuk> http://github.com/zchydem/qtablet
May 30 17:10:55 <lcuk> qildon is on gitorious
May 30 17:10:57 <lcuk> i know that
May 30 17:11:03 <arjan> thiago: it's a good thing for power, since all those "once every few seconds do X" things do cause tons of distributed wakeups
May 30 17:11:07 <lcuk> it was qtablet that was lacking
May 30 17:11:24 <arjan> in glib, once the API was there as a very obvious right thing to use, people just use it automatically for all background stuff
May 30 17:11:25 <thiago_home> arjan: we've been thinking of a coarse timer API for a while already
May 30 17:11:27 <arjan> and... get the gain
May 30 17:11:40 <arjan> now the range timers are also potentially useful for finer grained stuff
May 30 17:11:45 <arjan> but the second one is an obvious
May 30 17:11:47 <thiago_home> things like a 30-second timer for a socket
May 30 17:11:51 <thiago_home> it doesn't need to be precise
May 30 17:11:53 <arjan> yup
May 30 17:12:06 <arjan> the linux kernel also has the range timer concept
May 30 17:12:16 <arjan> by default we give each timer like 50 usecs slack like that
May 30 17:12:22 <arjan> but each app can change that slack all the time
May 30 17:12:22 <thiago_home> we were actually wanting to do this for all timers
May 30 17:12:41 <arjan> and the kernel will group it with various system events (say hw interrupts) within this interval
May 30 17:12:43 <thiago_home> auto-coarse depending on the interval you select
May 30 17:12:46 <arjan> (in meego we set the default to 1ms)
May 30 17:12:55 <thiago_home> good, that's how it should be
May 30 17:13:05 <arjan> auto-course with an optional "I want this one precise"
May 30 17:13:14 <arjan> so if Qt knows the tolerance, it can tell the kernel
May 30 17:13:23 <arjan> and the kernel will naturally group stuff between apps
May 30 17:13:47 <thiago_home> we tell people that Qt timers below 15 milliseconds are imprecise already
May 30 17:13:49 <arjan> thats something i haven't worked on for glib since it does not fit the glib api model
May 30 17:13:59 <arjan> on linux that's not really true
May 30 17:14:11 <arjan> we give nanoseconds to apps nowadays
May 30 17:14:25 * arjan did the work to move select/poll/etc away from jiffies to precise tiemrs
May 30 17:14:27 <arjan> timers
May 30 17:14:28 <thiago_home> maybe, but the point was to ask that people don't count on it being exact
May 30 17:14:51 <arjan> the nice thing with Qt/C++ is that you can just provide a different prototype for a precise set
May 30 17:14:53 <arjan> on the same object
May 30 17:15:15 <thiago_home> yeah
May 30 17:15:16 <arjan> so you can within the same API, do a sane default and an optional "I know what i'm doing" option
May 30 17:15:42 <thiago_home> would you mind logging this as a suggestion in bugreports.qt.nokia.com ?
May 30 17:15:47 <lcuk> what sorts of things need ms precision
May 30 17:15:54 <arjan> lcuk: media playback
May 30 17:16:02 <arjan> AV/sync kind of stuff
May 30 17:16:03 <thiago_home> 60 fps screen updates
May 30 17:16:20 <arjan> you don't want your audio to be 10 msec disconnected from your video stream. trust me ;)
May 30 17:16:21 <lcuk> sure but thats different surely?
May 30 17:16:28 * thiago_home thinks this will require some C++ ugly hacks to get the new prototypes in QAbstractEventDispatcher
May 30 17:16:35 <thiago_home> probably QAbstractEventDispatcherV2
May 30 17:16:45 <arjan> lcuk: not really. to achieve that, you end up needing relatively precise timers
May 30 17:17:09 <lcuk> or you just accept you can never get timing like that and make algorithm work based on interval since last ;)
May 30 17:17:19 <lcuk> then it works on any machine whether slow or fast
May 30 17:17:23 <arjan> the media people will kill you
May 30 17:17:27 <arjan> they need that anyway
May 30 17:17:29 <lcuk> not really
May 30 17:17:36 <arjan> but they also want to get the common case working well
May 30 17:17:38 <lcuk> its like a clock timer that needs to update seconds hand
May 30 17:18:02 <arjan> if you show "seconds" on the default screen I'll yell at you anyway
May 30 17:18:11 <arjan> one wakeup per second for a clock on the screen is silly
May 30 17:18:14 <lcuk> same goes for minute
May 30 17:18:24 <arjan> minute is fine, we give that a nice range
May 30 17:18:24 <lcuk> you cant just set a 60second timer and expect it not to drift
May 30 17:18:31 <CosmoHill> arjan: isn't that pretty resource intensive?
May 30 17:18:35 <lcuk> each iteration you adjust, it might be 59.4 seconds you need
May 30 17:18:39 <arjan> lcuk: sure
May 30 17:18:52 <arjan> lcuk: just the sound people want to adjust every few milliseconds
May 30 17:19:07 <arjan> and the more precise you give them *on average* the better they can do that without distortions
May 30 17:19:14 <arjan> (or heavy compute work)
May 30 17:19:16 <lcuk> sure
May 30 17:19:25 <lcuk> anyway, teatime \o
May 30 17:20:02 <thiago_home> anyway, we wanted to make the default timers coarse
May 30 17:20:08 <thiago_home> and add a precise timer for precise things
May 30 17:20:21 <thiago_home> it's far more common that people need coarse
May 30 17:20:25 <arjan> yep
May 30 17:20:32 <arjan> in glib the 'seconds' api seems very popular
May 30 17:20:41 <arjan> also because it conveys in the api what the person wants
May 30 17:20:45 <arjan> he wants "10 seconds"
May 30 17:20:55 <arjan> so he'll rather pass "10" to something called "seconds"
May 30 17:21:02 <arjan> than "10000" to something else
May 30 17:21:06 <arjan> api psycology 101 ;)
May 30 17:21:40 <thiago_home> of course
May 30 17:22:19 <arjan> we have pretty nifty tools to show the effects and how well it works
May 30 17:22:23 <arjan> (have you seen timechart ?)
May 30 17:22:46 <thiago_home> no
May 30 17:22:57 <thiago_home> have you seen FineToothComb?
May 30 17:23:03 <arjan> shows on a nanosecond-to-nanosecond what happens in the system
May 30 17:23:06 * arjan googles
May 30 17:23:33 <thiago_home> http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/09/29/exploring-qt-performance-on-arm-using-finetoothcomb/
May 30 17:23:54 <arjan> I've heared about that
May 30 17:24:02 <arjan> slightly different level but very interesting
May 30 17:24:12 <thiago_home> full-speed instruction dump
May 30 17:24:22 <arjan> timechart soon will soon at least show you which functions are hot
May 30 17:24:28 <arjan> but it also shows you who you're talking to
May 30 17:24:35 <arjan> like you can follow a dbus conversation and why it's slow
May 30 17:24:52 <arjan> and it's pure s/w, no special hw needed
May 30 17:25:39 <arjan> ftc will be one level more detail even
May 30 17:25:46 <arjan> which is interesting for sure
May 30 17:26:04 <arjan> timechart tries to be a multilevel representation, so you can zoom in for more details many times
May 30 17:26:12 <arjan> while still also showing the high level behavior
May 30 17:27:03 <thiago_home> if you want talk to the author of ftc, I can put you in contact
May 30 17:27:10 <arjan> I might have already
May 30 17:27:34 <arjan> but some of that has nda's deeper than this server allows ;)
May 30 17:28:22 <arjan> it'd be awesome to zoom timechart all the way into the actual instruction stream ;-)
May 30 17:28:42 <thiago_home> right, we can't give you the devices with the wings and ETM ports
May 30 17:28:53 <thiago_home> (that's why he had to draw it by hand)
May 30 17:29:07 <thiago_home> but discussing the tool, how it works, etc., I'm sure we can
May 30 17:29:56 <arjan> we have internal stuff as well like this that we can't share
May 30 17:30:04 <arjan> but we're not even allowed to talk about them in public
May 30 17:30:25 <arjan> or even under NDA normally :)
May 30 17:30:54 <Robot101> arjan: hey, have you seen bustle?
May 30 17:31:05 <thiago_home> then we'll need some NDAs in order to get our hands in some of those things
May 30 17:31:13 <thiago_home> :-)
May 30 17:31:24 <Robot101> arjan: d-bus sequence diagram tool - http://willthompson.co.uk/bustle/
May 30 17:31:31 <Robot101> arjan: popular in the N900 performance team :)
May 30 17:31:52 <Robot101> like "why the hell does the media player take 2 years to start... oh hey, 50,000 d-bus round trips"
May 30 17:31:55 <Robot101> etc
May 30 17:32:05 <pupnik> ty ty
May 30 17:32:08 <arjan> not seen actual bustle
May 30 17:32:18 <arjan> but I've had the same thing found with timechart
May 30 17:32:31 <arjan> timechart can find it without you knowing it's dbus yet ;)
May 30 17:32:46 <arjan> it just show you "oh you're talking to dbus daemon, and then waiting for a reply"
May 30 17:33:13 <Robot101> arjan: are you going to computex btw?
May 30 17:33:19 <arjan> nope
May 30 17:33:23 <arjan> no travel budget
May 30 17:33:32 <Robot101> ah, so not many meego folks?
May 30 17:33:33 * arjan makes too many other work trips
May 30 17:33:45 <arjan> more like I travel too much already
May 30 17:33:54 <arjan> for my budget group
May 30 17:33:55 <Robot101> I know the feeling :)
May 30 17:34:07 * arjan does not actually report into the meego group, travel budget wise
May 30 17:34:12 * Robot101 is in a plane... on the ground... at heathrow. sigh.
May 30 17:34:28 <arjan> I don't travel as much as I used to, but it's more last minute
May 30 17:34:29 <Robot101> german ATC is closed due to a dead hamster or something, so 1-2 hour delay
May 30 17:34:31 <arjan> which means more $$$
May 30 17:34:54 <Robot101> do you know of (m)any meego folks from Intel going?
May 30 17:35:09 <Stskeeps> Robot101: wasn't it the german ATC that was running on linux and was 'rock solid'? ;p
May 30 17:35:10 <arjan> at least a few from oregon are going
May 30 17:35:14 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: not only that
May 30 17:35:17 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: it runs Qt too
May 30 17:35:27 <arjan> Stskeeps: dead hamsters are a biological attack ;)
May 30 17:35:31 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 30 17:35:45 <thiago_home> but I guess the German traffic controllers are busy watching Lena arrive in Hamburg
May 30 17:36:38 <Robot101> they'd better fix it, flightradar24 shows quite a lot of flights in the air above germant atm :)
May 30 17:36:41 <Robot101> *germany
May 30 17:36:42 <vgrade> don't mention eurovision
May 30 17:36:49 <vgrade> vgrade from UK
May 30 17:36:50 <arjan> do not mention eurovision.
May 30 17:36:55 <arjan> that does not exist.
May 30 17:37:27 <Robot101> I'm pretty sure that have some hung over friends who would beg to differ... :) unfortunately
May 30 17:37:28 <CosmoHill> vgrade: cool, that would explain the O2 jogger
May 30 17:37:35 <Robot101> *that I
May 30 17:37:42 * Robot101 seems to be terrible at typing today
May 30 17:37:52 <Billius> What's the Meego presence likely to be like at Akademy in Tampere?
May 30 17:38:00 <thiago_home> Billius: there will be some people
May 30 17:38:07 <CosmoHill> Robot101: you should see reenignEesreveR, he's typing everything backwards
May 30 17:38:10 <janne_oksanen> Billius: what academy would that be?
May 30 17:38:13 <thiago_home> valtteri halla (Nokia, TSG, etc.) will be there giving a keynote
May 30 17:38:14 <pupnik> my n900 cght a wlan beacon 30k feet over sweden
May 30 17:38:18 <arjan> Billius: not sure if there's official meego.... I mean... meego isn't kde
May 30 17:38:30 <Robot101> Billius: collabora is sponsoring and I guess quite a few collabora folks will go
May 30 17:38:43 <Robot101> not sure if I will, will decide nearer the time :)
May 30 17:38:44 <reenignEesreveR> ?tahW
May 30 17:38:45 <thiago_home> you can expect a lot of Nokians too
May 30 17:39:06 <thiago_home> we'll be 10-15 from the Oslo office
May 30 17:39:31 <Robot101> heh, the collabora wiki has grown a recipes page since I last looked
May 30 17:39:49 <janne_oksanen> would someone tell me what this academy in Tampere is?
May 30 17:40:00 <janne_oksanen> I live near Tampere
May 30 17:40:12 <thiago_home> janne_oksanen: Akademy
May 30 17:40:16 <janne_oksanen> ah
May 30 17:40:18 <janne_oksanen> I cee
May 30 17:40:20 <Stskeeps> http://akademy.kde.org/
May 30 17:40:24 <Billius> Hmm, might look into coming - Akademy http://meego.com/community/events/2010/akademy-2010
May 30 17:40:59 <Robot101> oh look, there's a MeeGo party
May 30 17:41:07 <Robot101> we'll have to have a MeeGo vs Collabora party contest :D
May 30 17:41:19 <Stskeeps> combine to make it a bigger one? ;p
May 30 17:41:28 <thiago_home> Robot101: the one last year was awesome :-)
May 30 17:42:14 <Robot101> actually it might be the day trip from us this year
May 30 17:43:03 * Robot101 is also thinking what Collabora should do for its 5th birthday this summer
May 30 17:47:45 <Billius> Mobile track on Sat - day one - looks ok. http://akademytest.kde.org/program/conference
May 30 17:49:25 <lcuk> Robot101, how far away is birthday
May 30 17:52:31 <arjan> thiago: btw .. there's a need for a Qt tutorial book that does not start with 15 chapters of GUI stuff
May 30 17:52:37 <arjan> but focuses on all the other parts of Qt
May 30 17:53:03 <thiago_home> sounds like a tutorial I'd like to see :-)
May 30 17:56:12 * arjan wants to write a meego touch framework app... but want to get solid on qt fundamentals first
May 30 17:56:19 <arjan> just the qt gui stuff isn't as appropriate to start with
May 30 17:56:26 <arjan> oh well. time to go to a long lunch L)
May 30 18:00:15 * TSCHAKeee2 fries his evol buttermilk battered southern fried chicken, for lunch
May 30 18:01:07 * CosmoHill noms pizza
May 30 18:14:42 <bogie11> cooked Macaroni with minced meat (+tuna fish)
May 30 18:21:35 <CosmoHill> I'm sure my server case shouldn't flex like that
May 30 18:45:33 <cwells> hi, just installed meego on a EEE 1001P.   couple of small issues: doesn't seem to want to do update ("can't establish trust relationship") and can't install software from garage.   I assume they are related
May 30 19:00:48 <mindThomas> Hi. Any UK guys in here?
May 30 19:00:54 <CosmoHill> maybe
May 30 19:00:55 <Stskeeps> uk or dk? :P
May 30 19:00:59 <CosmoHill> what's the follow up question?
May 30 19:01:07 <mindThomas> I'm DK
May 30 19:01:13 <mindThomas> but I'm looking for UK guys
May 30 19:01:18 <Stskeeps> to buy a joggler?
May 30 19:01:19 <Stskeeps> :P
May 30 19:01:21 <mindThomas> yup
May 30 19:01:21 <mindThomas> :)
May 30 19:01:27 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 30 19:01:28 <mindThomas> I'm really into embedded electronics
May 30 19:01:35 <mindThomas> http://elec.tkjweb.dk <- that's my blog
May 30 19:01:52 <Stskeeps> keep in mind the joggler has gma500 and hence may not have sane meego experience
May 30 19:02:03 <mindThomas> and unfortunately I first saw today that it has been on sale for quite a while
May 30 19:02:21 <mindThomas> It is going to be used with Linux
May 30 19:02:22 <mindThomas> UNE
May 30 19:02:27 <Stskeeps> it's a bargain at 50 quid, yeah
May 30 19:02:30 <mindThomas> Ubunto Network Edition
May 30 19:02:46 <mindThomas> But I think it's the last day tomorrow
May 30 19:02:50 <Stskeeps> it's good to some extent, but UNE isn't really a touchscreen os..
May 30 19:02:51 <Stskeeps> :P
May 30 19:02:55 <mindThomas> as the campaign only runs throughout may
May 30 19:03:22 <Stskeeps> (i know, i run jogglerhacks.blogspot.com , hobby project for me)
May 30 19:03:26 <mindThomas> anyways, then it can run some IRC bots or server for me :)
May 30 19:03:32 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 30 19:03:40 <CosmoHill> half price but out of stock
May 30 19:03:46 <mindThomas> wouldn't it be able to do that?
May 30 19:03:54 <Stskeeps> sure
May 30 19:04:01 <mindThomas> 1.3GHz and 512mb ram
May 30 19:04:05 <Stskeeps> go read what's possible to do on it at my blog :P
May 30 19:04:05 <mindThomas> that should be plenty :)
May 30 19:04:10 <mindThomas> have read it
May 30 19:04:13 <Stskeeps> you can pretty much boot a lot of things (android is fucking up)
May 30 19:04:27 <CosmoHill> that spec? that's better than my server :/
May 30 19:04:27 <mindThomas> out of stock :(
May 30 19:05:37 <mindThomas> Is it only possible to buy them online?
May 30 19:05:42 <mindThomas> From o2?
May 30 19:05:43 <Stskeeps> think so, or in shop
May 30 19:05:53 <Stskeeps> or on ebay, where people charge a shitload ;p
May 30 19:06:06 <mindThomas> So theoretically there could be stock in a shop?
May 30 19:07:28 <Stskeeps> theoretically
May 30 19:08:01 <CosmoHill> hmmm
May 30 19:08:18 <CosmoHill> if i had one of them i could attach it to my speakers via the 3.5mm jack
May 30 19:08:22 <CosmoHill> and use it for music
May 30 19:10:20 <CosmoHill> http://www.openpeak.com/OpenFrame7.php
May 30 19:12:57 * CosmoHill blinks
May 30 19:13:17 <CosmoHill> they wrote the applications in flash...for a linux based device..crazy people
May 30 19:13:55 <Stskeeps> not a bad idea if you need simple dev env though
May 30 19:19:06 <TSCHAKeee2> I want to eventually make them an Orbiter for bedside use
May 30 19:19:23 <TSCHAKeee2> but i am still researching orbiter ideas that can run okay on that constrained GMA500
May 30 19:20:29 <Stskeeps> it ran hildon desktop fine
May 30 19:20:51 <mindThomas> Anyone who could be one for me?
May 30 19:21:40 <CosmoHill> not me, sorry
May 30 19:22:08 <Stskeeps> mindThomas: sorry, got mine from a guy in UK too :P
May 30 19:22:20 * CosmoHill blinks
May 30 19:22:37 <CosmoHill> I'm on a computer store and under "toys and gadgets" there is "Nissan Cars" :/
May 30 19:23:29 <mindThomas> Stskeeps: You did :P
May 30 19:23:43 <Stskeeps> and i think he's maxed out atm :P
May 30 19:23:51 <Stskeeps> (there's a limit on how many jogglers you can buy)
May 30 19:24:31 <mindThomas> oh, there is? :O
May 30 19:26:27 <TSCHAKeee2> yup. 2
May 30 19:27:17 <mindThomas> max 2?
May 30 19:27:24 <TSCHAKeee2> yup
May 30 19:37:53 <CosmoHill> I think there are two O2 shops in my town
May 30 19:38:39 <mindThomas> "None left in the central Newcastle-upon-tyne or Metrocentre stores. " - http://www.hotukdeals.com/item/646001/o2-joggler-49-99-now-with-free-app?page=137
May 30 19:38:54 <mindThomas> CosmoHill would you mind buying one for me?
May 30 19:39:46 <lcuk> buying a whole shop?
May 30 19:40:02 <mindThomas> haha :D
May 30 19:51:02 <sivang> lbt: hey, just responded to your email :)
May 30 19:51:19 <sivang> lbt: so I Know which meeting, on the 2nd of june :)
May 30 20:38:02 <lbt> sivang: cheers
May 30 20:45:50 <rioch> Will meego also work on a mid/umpc?
May 30 20:46:40 <thiago_home> meego works on netbooks
May 30 20:46:53 <thiago_home> and eventually slates
May 30 20:46:58 <markatto> and phones
May 30 20:47:08 <markatto> I don't see why not mid
May 30 20:47:31 <arjan> mid/umpc ... also depends on the hw in use
May 30 20:47:32 <thiago_home> what's the difference between a netbook and a mid after all?
May 30 20:47:38 <rioch> true, true
May 30 20:47:38 <arjan> and the exact usage model you expect
May 30 20:47:53 <arjan> from where I sit, mid/umpc does not exist
May 30 20:47:54 <rioch> well, I want to write an application that I need to carry around with me all the time
May 30 20:48:10 <arjan> it was more a vision of what turns out to be a few different device categories
May 30 20:48:21 <thiago_home> well, what device are you going to carry that application on?
May 30 20:48:35 <thiago_home> I can carry applications on a USB stick, but they're not very useful without another device
May 30 20:49:27 <rioch> I haven't got a device yet. I need it to be touchscreen, around a 5 inch screen (not so small it's useless, not so big that it's not portable)
May 30 20:49:47 <rioch> I've been looking at a few, like this one: http://carrypad.com/2010/05/21/evigroup-wallet-now-available/
May 30 20:49:57 <thiago_home> what's the difference between that and a slate?
May 30 20:50:06 <arjan> netbook sized ones... I'm now using a lenovo s10 3t
May 30 20:50:35 <rioch> thiago: it's small
May 30 20:50:41 <rioch> I dunno, maybe it is a slate
May 30 20:50:52 <arjan> it sounds halfway between an ipad and an iphone
May 30 20:50:53 <arjan> size wise
May 30 20:51:05 <rioch> arjan: yeah, I'd say so
May 30 20:51:09 <thiago_home> maybe slightly larger than an N810 then
May 30 20:51:25 <lcuk> smartq is prolly closest :)
May 30 20:51:28 <lcuk> that already ran mer
May 30 20:51:35 <lcuk> the device is an arm11 one
May 30 20:51:39 <lbt> didn't meego used to have lighttpd?
May 30 20:51:53 <arjan> meego never had a httpd server yet
May 30 20:52:04 <lcuk> doesnt qt have one
May 30 20:52:06 <arjan> we've been asked a few times but with not-so-clear reasons
May 30 20:52:08 <thiago_home> lcuk: no
May 30 20:52:12 <lcuk> rly?
May 30 20:52:15 <lcuk> surprised
May 30 20:52:20 <arjan> also, doing http serving is.. interesting security wise
May 30 20:52:24 <arjan> open port and all that
May 30 20:52:27 <thiago_home> unless you count the MiniHttpServer I wrote in several unit tests
May 30 20:52:32 <lbt> arjan: OK - I thought I'd found one... been asked about it
May 30 20:52:40 <lcuk> i expected qkitchensink->httpserver or something thiago_home :D
May 30 20:52:59 <arjan> I can see a small packaged apache as well if we'd really need one
May 30 20:53:02 <arjan> kinda hoping we don't need one
May 30 20:53:06 <arjan> (security)
May 30 20:53:08 <rioch> thiago_home: so, how can I tell if it will work? Is there a list of compatible devices?
May 30 20:53:17 <lcuk> in the default install i can see not including it
May 30 20:53:26 <lcuk> but why prevent people from doing what they want
May 30 20:53:26 <thiago_home> rioch: if it runs OMAP3, there's a high chance it will work
May 30 20:53:31 <thiago_home> ARM11 isn't so
May 30 20:53:45 <rioch> what is OMAP3?
May 30 20:54:03 <thiago_home> an ARMv7 SoC from TI
May 30 20:54:12 <lcuk> will the handset ux work on netbook
May 30 20:54:24 <thiago_home> lcuk: if you install it, it will probably run
May 30 20:54:43 <lcuk> so it will be open source enough to build or just a case of binaries for different platforms?
May 30 20:54:44 <thiago_home> but it's meant to be used on a small-screen touch device, not on a medium-sized one with keyboard and touchpad
May 30 20:55:40 <lcuk> well like in the arm11 example - could i theoretically (forgetting performance) run the handset ux on open moko
May 30 20:55:50 <thiago_home> if you recompile, yes
May 30 20:56:05 <thiago_home> the ARM builds are done for ARMv7 CPUs
May 30 20:56:12 <lcuk> and theres no blockers for recompilation beyond software bugs
May 30 20:56:20 <thiago_home> and the need for OpenGL ES
May 30 20:56:39 <lcuk> well that can technically be emulated cant it?
May 30 20:56:44 <thiago_home> yes
May 30 20:56:51 <lcuk> ok, so its not a blocker as such
May 30 20:56:58 <thiago_home> if you do the work of isolating and testing the non-OpenGL ES codepaths
May 30 20:57:14 <thiago_home> I'm pretty sure the developers aren't doing it
May 30 20:57:22 <lcuk> i dont blame them
May 30 20:58:19 <arjan> actually
May 30 20:58:29 <arjan> since tablets will use opengl and share a bunch of the underlying code
May 30 20:58:33 <arjan> that'll get debugged as well
May 30 20:58:46 <thiago_home> opengl2 is a superset of opengles2
May 30 20:58:54 <arjan> almost.
May 30 20:59:00 <thiago_home> right
May 30 20:59:13 <thiago_home> but testing the raster and X11 codepaths may not happen
May 30 20:59:18 <arjan> oh sure
May 30 20:59:26 <thiago_home> or what happens for the effects and other portions of the code depending on opengl
May 30 20:59:31 <benp_> Hi there. Giving meego a try and have a bunch of questions. Is this the right place?
May 30 20:59:44 <lcuk> mmm no x11?
May 30 21:00:10 <thiago_home> lcuk: actually, what I meant were the native (x11) and raster graphics engines in Qt
May 30 21:00:19 <thiago_home> they still use X11 for WM
May 30 21:00:33 <arjan> benp_: sure
May 30 21:00:35 <rioch> thiago_home: is it likely that arm11 will ever be supported/provided?
May 30 21:00:45 <thiago_home> rioch: not officially
May 30 21:00:49 <benp_> arjan: Great.
May 30 21:00:56 <thiago_home> but if people do the work, sure
May 30 21:01:06 <lcuk> why the regression tho - i thought qt was happy on n8x0
May 30 21:01:13 <thiago_home> lcuk: Qt is
May 30 21:01:14 <benp_> One by one: Can I use the meego netbook thingy with multiple users/logins?
May 30 21:01:22 <lcuk> isnt everything based on qt?
May 30 21:01:24 <thiago_home> lcuk: but why says anything about the applications built with it?
May 30 21:01:51 <lcuk> thats like saying my boat is waterproof, till i put it in the ocean
May 30 21:01:54 <thiago_home> lcuk: not yet. Non-Qt apps will be used for some time, maybe forever. Who knows.
May 30 21:01:55 <arjan> benp_: not currently.
May 30 21:02:13 <lcuk> thiago_home, sure, but qt apps are qt apps?
May 30 21:02:17 <lcuk> and qt works on 8x0
May 30 21:02:22 <thiago_home> lcuk: they're also native apps
May 30 21:02:25 <arjan> lcuk: there's more than "it uses qt" for apps to work well
May 30 21:02:32 <benp_> yum is configured "wrong", having two sources that have names that are already taken. Is this well-known? Something to report?
May 30 21:02:33 <arjan> like which compiler options you use etc
May 30 21:02:38 <thiago_home> lcuk: you can use any lib in the system, including OpenGL
May 30 21:02:39 <lcuk> yeah sure arjan
May 30 21:02:46 <thiago_home> besides, Qt has never officially supported Diablo and before
May 30 21:02:48 <lcuk> but using random libraries is tough
May 30 21:02:49 <arjan> benp_: hmmm that was supposed to be fixed
May 30 21:03:05 <lcuk> and stops the qt crossplatformness?
May 30 21:03:16 <lcuk> native qt application can run on windows
May 30 21:03:24 <thiago_home> only if you recompile for Windows
May 30 21:03:30 <thiago_home> that's also another issue
May 30 21:03:32 <benp_> arjan: Not yet mean "but planned, for sure"? I understand that it won't be that much of a deal for mobiles, but on a netbook my gf and me are using different accounts.. :)
May 30 21:03:46 <thiago_home> and it doesn't work if you use libX11 stuff in your app
May 30 21:03:57 <lcuk> sure - the walled garden
May 30 21:04:00 <arjan> benp_: we're struggling with how to do it properly; we're looking at things like "guest mode" and "kid mode"
May 30 21:04:01 <benp_> arjan: It started that way on this image. Changed the repository source names manually
May 30 21:04:46 <benp_> arjan: Ah, okay. That's a better/deeper solution that I thought of. I was expecting just a simple login manager or something..
May 30 21:04:51 <lcuk> thiago_home, something like sdl has the same sort of thing
May 30 21:04:56 <arjan> benp_: we found the name thing pretty late, but I know we tried to fix it
May 30 21:05:03 <lcuk> write an sdl game and it can run on the platforms sdl supports
May 30 21:05:04 <lbt> arjan: when you say "we're looking at".... who is looking at it? And where are the discussions?
May 30 21:05:09 <arjan> benp_: login manager... more a "switch user" but yeah
May 30 21:05:14 <rioch> thiago_home: Is it always possible to install this on a device, or does it depend on the device being open in some way (i.e. not locked down)?
May 30 21:05:22 <arjan> lbt: this is the user interaction design team
May 30 21:05:40 <thiago_home> rioch: which device?
May 30 21:05:42 <lbt> arjan: there's a lot of interest in that area
May 30 21:05:53 <lcuk> arjan, are they interacting with anyone publicly?
May 30 21:05:56 <lbt> and I wondered if they'd be a good team to help "out" :)
May 30 21:06:00 <benp_> arjan: Well.. There should be some password protection (otherwise I really won't use it for social network things and connect it to my accounts).
May 30 21:06:10 <arjan> benp_: there is password protection
May 30 21:06:12 <lbt> arjan: ie set Stskeeps on them
May 30 21:06:17 <arjan> you can set it so that it asks for your password at boot
May 30 21:06:24 * arjan coded the "lower half" of that stuff
May 30 21:06:28 <benp_> arjan: Failed to find that.
May 30 21:06:36 <arjan> but it's done with the screensaver, not with a login manager
May 30 21:06:40 <rioch> thiago_home: I'm speaking hypothically. Can a device prevent me from installing meego?
May 30 21:06:46 <arjan> there's a settings thing for it somewhere
May 30 21:06:46 <thiago_home> rioch: yes
May 30 21:06:51 <thiago_home> rioch: talk to the people who made the device
May 30 21:06:56 <thiago_home> rioch: think of TiVo
May 30 21:06:57 <arjan> (but I didn't code that part of the solution, only the part that actually does the lock)
May 30 21:07:05 <lcuk> benp_, on maemo the one thing i want to do is lock down the entire net aspects - phone sms internet - so my son can play without accidentally phoning finland
May 30 21:07:13 <lcuk> which he has done more than once :|
May 30 21:07:19 <benp_> lcuk: Hehe
May 30 21:07:32 <benp_> lcuk: Looking forward to N810 support, fbtw
May 30 21:07:35 <rioch> thiago_home: ok, thanks for your help.
May 30 21:08:02 <lcuk> thiago_home, will meego be using the tivo model
May 30 21:08:14 <thiago_home> lcuk: tivo model is a hardware thing
May 30 21:08:17 <lcuk> ie actively prevent installation on alternative hardware
May 30 21:08:18 <thiago_home> meego is softwar only
May 30 21:08:28 <thiago_home> companies put meego on their devices, you have to talk to those companies
May 30 21:08:42 <thiago_home> I *think* the Nokia devices will be flashable
May 30 21:08:48 <thiago_home> they have been so far
May 30 21:09:35 <benp_> Another thing that struck me: What's this "Catalog" thing? Seems - uhm, I hope I offend no one in here - ugly and I fail to understand the difference between the other program to add/remove packages (looks like synaptic, but I understand this is rpm based)
May 30 21:09:47 <lcuk> but can people make a new image with (for instance) different software and flash it on
May 30 21:10:11 <lcuk> ie remove/change browser but still have full media player usage
May 30 21:10:27 <arjan> benp_: please use the garage app
May 30 21:10:38 <arjan> the "low level" install/remove app is pretty crappy if you ask me
May 30 21:10:43 <benp_> lcuk: For me the main point is not cost, but privacy. I share a netbook with family and friends. Even in my family it's not ok to read/share mail or IM accounts etc.
May 30 21:11:17 <lcuk> benp_, technically your entire family should have their own device but i see your point
May 30 21:11:22 <lcuk> i have a floating n810 with games etc
May 30 21:11:31 <lcuk> but i dont share my phone regularly
May 30 21:11:48 <benp_> arjan: Hmm.. Looked so much more familiar (see above, like synaptic). Garage looks like it was hand-drawn. Yesterday. And has no contents. Sorry - that's the ugliest part of the image I found so far.
May 30 21:12:12 <benp_> lcuk: Technically that's not correct. :) This is not a phone, this is a EeePc :)
May 30 21:12:25 <arjan> it's more about "personal device"
May 30 21:12:36 <arjan> and we need ways to share a "personal device" safely
May 30 21:12:41 <arjan> it's not ... trivial
May 30 21:12:44 <lcuk> benp_, sure, even more differenter then!
May 30 21:12:47 <benp_> Yep, I understand that.
May 30 21:13:01 <arjan> share-with-kid is different to show-off-to-friends :0
May 30 21:13:04 <lcuk> arjan, technically with full user accounts it is
May 30 21:13:20 <arjan> lcuk: full user accounts are not a good solution per se
May 30 21:13:22 <pupnik> the different ux concept is ok.  but how much space / market is there really for meeego on netbooks
May 30 21:13:26 <lcuk> arjan, ?
May 30 21:13:31 <arjan> they're a component to the solution, but they're not the whole part of it
May 30 21:13:47 <lcuk> thats intruiging
May 30 21:13:50 <pupnik> when a netbook is essentially a laptop.
May 30 21:14:13 <lcuk> yeah, what else do you need than user accounts?
May 30 21:14:17 <arjan> lcuk: you have different levels of user. "owner" "kids that whine in the back of the car"
May 30 21:14:21 <lcuk> /home/arjan
May 30 21:14:26 <lcuk> /home/gary
May 30 21:14:35 <benp_> pupnik: I'd love to go for it on a netbook (but install more software for me)
May 30 21:14:39 <arjan> you need well defined roles to match those accounts, since you the owner want not all users to have the same full access
May 30 21:14:57 <lcuk> arjan, isnt this a solved problem for like eons?
May 30 21:15:01 <benp_> pupnik: For me a netbook is a device for online services mostly (and more, not part of meego by default)
May 30 21:15:03 <lcuk> even windows has multiuser
May 30 21:15:42 <arjan> lcuk: having multiple accounts isn't the hard part. how to manage those accounts, how to let them share, how to limit some of them in various ways, is there it gets "fun"
May 30 21:15:52 <pupnik> benp_: what do you want netbook meego to do differently than linux or win7
May 30 21:16:26 <benp_> But for now it's not ready for my (personal, irrelevant) usecase. Multiuser support with password protection, a PDF client that doesn't look out of place and access to more "standard" packages (word processor, monodevelop, stuff)
May 30 21:16:31 <arjan> pupnik: on your earlier question. I think that "meego on netbook" alone does not make sense commercially
May 30 21:16:34 <lcuk> arjan, how do you define the role of a single user machine?  you let them install apps they want and set the experience to them
May 30 21:16:51 <arjan> pupnik: but it is part of a bigger suite, with meego-on-phones, meego-on-tablets etc... and as part of a whole suite it has value
May 30 21:17:39 <arjan> since it means different types of devices share concepts and have some degree of compatibility, and can complement and add value to eachother
May 30 21:18:03 <benp_> pupnik: Deep and good integration of online services (chat, social networks, mail..)
May 30 21:18:16 <pupnik> ah good answers - ty
May 30 21:18:37 <hylix_> hi all
May 30 21:18:58 <benp_> pupnik: With a simple (think non-technical friends) and beautiful UI/UX/whatever
May 30 21:19:40 <hylix_> do you know if its possible to build meego from sources by MIC to make my pc work with meego ?
May 30 21:19:55 <arjan> hylix_: MIC does not build sources
May 30 21:20:04 <arjan> but.. what do you actually want to do
May 30 21:20:05 <hylix_> ah nice :(
May 30 21:20:05 <arjan> ?
May 30 21:20:33 <hylix_> arjan: i have a eeepc900 (not 901) and meego dont works on it
May 30 21:20:48 <hylix_> but i really want too have meego on my pc :)
May 30 21:20:53 <hylix_> to*
May 30 21:21:12 <s13ge> :P
May 30 21:21:26 <s13ge> does meego work on 1101HA?
May 30 21:21:31 <hylix_> maybe
May 30 21:21:36 <hylix_> if its an atom
May 30 21:21:41 <s13ge> yes it is
May 30 21:21:55 <hylix_> i think its ok
May 30 21:22:04 <arjan> and has gma950 or so graphics
May 30 21:22:05 <hylix_> but for me :'(
May 30 21:22:06 <arjan> and not gma500
May 30 21:22:15 <s13ge> GMA500 :)
May 30 21:22:22 <s13ge> so its not working..
May 30 21:22:25 <arjan> nope
May 30 21:22:33 <s13ge> fucking intel
May 30 21:22:35 <arjan> sadly that device has no linux support from the hardware vendor
May 30 21:22:37 <hylix_> is there a way to compile meego ?
May 30 21:22:53 <arjan> hylix_: yes you can compile it yourself. however it's not a small task....
May 30 21:23:12 <hylix_> i mean simple
May 30 21:23:13 <thiago_home> hylix_: have you ever built a linux distribution from scratch?
May 30 21:23:17 <hylix_> like make
May 30 21:23:18 <s13ge> i have linux on my 1101HA, but videocard doesn't work very well...
May 30 21:23:21 * TSCHAKeee2 laughs
May 30 21:23:25 <TSCHAKeee2> make
May 30 21:23:33 <hylix_> thiago_home: i dont want to reinvant the wheel
May 30 21:23:36 <lcuk> dont you need to type make all?
May 30 21:23:38 <TSCHAKeee2> hoo boy, that's a good one.
May 30 21:23:39 <hylix_> reinvent*
May 30 21:23:50 <arjan> hylix_: it's a little more involved than that.
May 30 21:23:52 <pupnik> yes there is a lot to dso to make linux as slick as OSX for e.g.
May 30 21:24:18 <hylix_> mmh
May 30 21:24:38 <hylix_> then what do i do ?
May 30 21:25:53 <hylix_> (and why not make a i686 standard distro ?)
May 30 21:26:36 <lcuk> because the sky isn't green
May 30 21:27:07 <trem> nite all, sweet dreams
May 30 21:27:11 <hylix_> lcuk: its relative
May 30 21:27:23 <lcuk> sure
May 30 21:27:34 <lcuk> theres plenty of lively discussion on this very topic anyway
May 30 21:28:01 <lcuk> general conclusion is yeah no real technical reason (especially since the bigger cpus will be generally faster)
May 30 21:28:18 <arjan> hylix_: optimizing for atom gives performance.
May 30 21:28:25 <arjan> it's that simple.
May 30 21:28:40 <arjan> so if someone else wants to build the thing for pre-atom, they can do that
May 30 21:28:48 <hylix_> arjan: a lot or just a litle ?
May 30 21:28:55 <arjan> but my estimate of doing that is $50k/year in cost
May 30 21:29:01 <arjan> hylix_: around 10% to 15%
May 30 21:29:10 <arjan> (and 10% in performance is also 10% in power generally)
May 30 21:29:14 <hylix_> hum ok
May 30 21:30:12 <hylix_> then i just have to kill myself :(
May 30 21:30:40 <lcuk> hylix_, if its anything like moblin someone will put it ontop of ubuntu anyway
May 30 21:31:04 <arjan> it's the same ask asking the arm guys who compile for armv7 and not armv5
May 30 21:31:21 <hylix_> arjan: maybe :)
May 30 21:31:21 <arjan> lcuk: : define "it"
May 30 21:31:22 <thiago_home> the big difference is fp
May 30 21:31:24 <thiago_home> in both, actually
May 30 21:31:27 <thiago_home> ABI-changing
May 30 21:31:43 <hylix_> arjan: but i dont ask i just looking for a way to do it alone
May 30 21:32:03 <arjan> slaine, who's here on weekdays, I think has done it before
May 30 21:32:04 <lcuk> arjan, not really, there are grave differences - if it is just cpu stuff, sure it will all be happy, but the soc includes the entire graphics card which doesnt exist
May 30 21:32:20 <lcuk> same binary runs on 8x0 and 900 happily
May 30 21:32:33 <hylix_> lcuk: yes
May 30 21:32:34 <arjan> yeah but the 900 stuff is compiled for the 900 cpu
May 30 21:32:38 <arjan> for that extra 10% performance
May 30 21:32:40 <lcuk> nahh
May 30 21:32:41 <arjan> if not 15%
May 30 21:32:49 <lcuk> i used to build binaries quite happily for my 810
May 30 21:32:53 <lcuk> and copy directly to 900
May 30 21:32:57 <arjan> I know it runs on 900
May 30 21:33:12 <arjan> I'm just pointing out that nokia doesnt' build the n900 OS and core stuff like that
May 30 21:33:17 <thiago_home> arjan: not really. The Fremantle binaries are built for the armv6 arch with soft-fp ABI
May 30 21:33:17 <hylix_> i ma case there is just a cpu problem
May 30 21:33:28 <thiago_home> but it does use the neon chip
May 30 21:35:34 <lcuk> arjan, "it" http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/9.10/release/
May 30 21:36:30 <lcuk> runs on pretty much everything x86, including intels amds, and can even be used on the new macs
May 30 21:37:00 <hylix_> hum
May 30 21:37:08 <lcuk> so why cant the same be available direct for meego netbook?
May 30 21:38:30 <arjan> it can.
May 30 21:38:33 <arjan> please do the work ;)
May 30 21:38:44 <arjan> (and provide the build servers etc)
May 30 21:39:07 <ml-mobile> I think MeeGo needs more competing interests
May 30 21:39:09 <arjan> maybe your employer wants to fund the $50k/year
May 30 21:39:21 <arjan> .... since mine sure doesn't want to spend the 50 grand on this
May 30 21:39:38 <lcuk> im not capable, but if canonical did it before im sure they can again
May 30 21:39:58 * pupnik whispers "business case"
May 30 21:40:03 <lcuk> and arjan in open source, it does not take 50k
May 30 21:40:09 <lcuk> it takes one determined individual
May 30 21:40:10 <thiago_home> canonical is still doing something meego
May 30 21:40:17 <thiago_home> they're not very pleased, but they're doing it
May 30 21:40:20 <arjan> lcuk: it takes about 50k in terms of build hardware and datacenter space
May 30 21:40:34 <arjan> I did not count people time
May 30 21:40:41 <lcuk> nope, it takes 1 person with 1 machine and some spare time
May 30 21:40:56 <arjan> after the fact maybe.
May 30 21:40:57 <lcuk> linux on toasters
May 30 21:41:00 <lcuk> linux on xbox
May 30 21:41:06 <lcuk> linux on XXXXXXX
May 30 21:41:17 <lcuk> do not underestimate the community
May 30 21:41:18 <arjan> but not during development of a distro; there you need a fast enough build result so that things aren't helt back
May 30 21:41:26 <arjan> I do not underestimate the community
May 30 21:41:38 <arjan> I see what kind of setup we need for what is produced right now
May 30 21:41:49 <arjan> and how it scales in terms of adding arm and such
May 30 21:41:52 <lcuk> sure, and theres people out there twiddling their thumbs
May 30 21:41:54 <arjan> and how many machines we had to add
May 30 21:42:04 <lcuk> jebba was in here recently offering to do it
May 30 21:42:08 <arjan> and I'm more than halving that for this effort
May 30 21:42:10 <TSCHAKeee2> although
May 30 21:42:12 <TSCHAKeee2> oops wrong window
May 30 21:42:19 <arjan> lcuk: there's NOTHING stopping him.
May 30 21:42:32 <lcuk> there was at the time - the code wasnt up :p
May 30 21:42:36 <mindfaq> at least the sdk simulator needs a solution to run without intel gma chipsets imho
May 30 21:42:37 <arjan> hehe
May 30 21:45:08 <lcuk> arjan, more difficult than recompiling would be something like Stskeeps attempted with mer - to actually rebuild maemo using sometimes altnerative apps
May 30 21:45:30 <tmzt> mindfaq: I wonder what adding 2d intel support to qemu would entail
May 30 21:45:39 <tmzt> they've used the same emulated card (cirrus?) for years
May 30 21:48:57 <ShadowJK> because that cirrus card has documentation and is well known :)
May 30 21:49:00 <mindfaq> yes, cirrus it was
May 30 21:49:35 <ShadowJK> iirc someone was at some point writing opensource bios for that hw :)
May 30 21:49:43 <mindfaq> are they planning to include other virtual graphics devices?
May 30 21:50:23 <mindfaq> think i read something on fedora's wiki
May 30 21:50:34 <ShadowJK> I suspect it'd be easier to invent your own nonexistant graphics card, and then write drivers for it on every os
May 30 21:50:38 <tmzt> qfx?
May 30 21:50:55 <mindfaq> like innotek did with virtualbox?
May 30 21:51:00 <ShadowJK> than to figure out enough of how existing cards work in order to emulate them..
May 30 21:51:35 <mindfaq> as long as the drivers go into the kernel/xorg, that'd be fine
May 30 21:52:39 <mindfaq> with virtualbox, from time to time they are lacking support for recent x-servers
May 30 21:58:09 <mindfaq> would it be possible to run the meego sdk simulator on nvidia graphics hardware through xephyr if one would drop the nvidia GL libs into the meego chroot?
May 30 22:16:22 <pupnik> mindfaq: for sure if you dont use gl
May 30 22:16:27 <pupnik> :)
May 30 22:47:42 <Monotoko> hiya guys...telepathy keeps crashing when im trying to IM...afterwards, it wont let me open any new IM windows
May 30 22:47:46 <Monotoko> without a reset
May 30 23:16:56 <sivang> Monotoko: try to rebuild telepathy with debugging informaiton and run it through GDB
May 30 23:16:59 <sivang> gdb
May 30 23:17:28 * sivang -< sleep
May 31 00:14:08 <mamoul> hey budz
May 31 00:14:12 <mamoul> I'm on my cute meego netbook now
May 31 00:15:01 <mamoul> this is interesting
May 31 00:15:17 <mamoul> for some reason the system update doesn't work
May 31 00:15:21 <mamoul> it says something like invalid key
May 31 01:38:33 <neopsis> can we install meego on vmware?
May 31 01:38:51 <pupnik> yes
May 31 01:39:16 <neopsis> cool :D
May 31 01:39:22 <neopsis> try it now :D
May 31 01:49:46 <pupnik> later. interested in handheld ux
May 31 01:51:38 <arjan> no
May 31 01:51:53 <arjan> meego/netbook does not work (well) on vmware or any current virtual machine
May 31 01:52:04 <arjan> due to the need for fast 3D graphics
May 31 01:52:20 <GAN900> arjan, VMWare does Aero.
May 31 01:52:56 <GAN900> And Quartz, for that matter, now.
May 31 01:53:09 <arjan> where's the (open source) linux 3d driver for it?
May 31 01:53:56 <arjan> and does it need things like foul smelling kernel patches?
May 31 01:54:39 <arjan> it'd be nice to have at least one virtual machine solution
May 31 01:59:15 <neopsis> you guys can give me any recommendation on where to start for development?
May 31 02:08:15 <arjan> neopsis: qtdesigner is a very nice start
May 31 02:10:32 <TSCHAKeee2> okay, i'm gonna wipe this damn joggler
May 31 02:10:45 <TSCHAKeee2> the factory OS is uuuuuuuuuselessss :P
May 31 02:12:07 <neopsis> arjan: is there any tutorial website for qt designer?
May 31 02:12:32 <arjan> http://meego.com/developers/meego-developer-story-0
May 31 02:12:49 <arjan> I'm not involved in the sdk part of this much
May 31 02:12:53 <arjan> mostly working on the OS itself
May 31 02:13:03 <arjan> but there's a bunch of guys who're working on the SDK + documentation
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 31 02:59:56 2010