**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 18 02:59:57 2010
Aug 18 04:10:05 <ali1234> well i finally got gcc to apply patches
Aug 18 04:44:48 <mdavison> Hi all
Aug 18 04:45:39 <mdavison> I've got a question regarding building meego from source
Aug 18 04:46:07 <Stskeeps> first off, what architecture are you targetting?
Aug 18 04:46:22 <mdavison> ARM
Aug 18 04:46:34 <Stskeeps> we already have v5 and v7 targets at least
Aug 18 04:46:44 <mdavison> I dont really have a specific agenda
Aug 18 04:47:10 <mdavison> I'm actually new to meego and *nix distros
Aug 18 04:47:18 <sofar> welcome
Aug 18 04:47:23 <Stskeeps> the thing is really that there's two meanings :) one is optimizing for a certain arm version and the other is just setting up a build environment :)
Aug 18 04:47:27 <mdavison> and i want to know how distros are built
Aug 18 04:48:00 <sofar> usually you take a different distro that is built for a target and start from there, or crosscompile
Aug 18 04:48:18 <mdavison> okay
Aug 18 04:48:21 <sofar> in both cases, recompiling everything is involved
Aug 18 04:48:33 <mdavison> so how do i recompile everything?
Aug 18 04:48:36 <ali1234> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
Aug 18 04:48:46 <mdavison> i've heard that you can use poky etc to rebuild distros
Aug 18 04:48:48 <sofar> use rpmbuild, on the source rpms
Aug 18 04:48:58 <sofar> poky is one way
Aug 18 04:49:05 <ali1234> use rpmbuild, watch it totally fail, cry :/
Aug 18 04:49:11 <sofar> hehe
Aug 18 04:49:29 <sofar> meego uses OBS to build
Aug 18 04:49:30 <mdavison> i also heard about OpenEmbedded
Aug 18 04:50:14 <mdavison> okay so OBS is a build system like poky or OE ?
Aug 18 04:50:21 <sofar> yes
Aug 18 04:50:30 <ali1234> yes, but it is over 9000 times more complicated
Aug 18 04:50:35 <sofar> haha
Aug 18 04:50:45 <sofar> ali1234: stay positive
Aug 18 04:50:48 <mdavison> great :)
Aug 18 04:51:03 <sofar> it doesn't mean that you should use obs
Aug 18 04:51:07 <ali1234> i highly recommend you go and read about LFS, OE, and maybe gentoo stage 1 handbook
Aug 18 04:51:16 <sofar> you can do without obs if you only compile a few applications yourself
Aug 18 04:51:19 <ali1234> before you even attempt to bootstrap in OBS
Aug 18 04:51:43 <sofar> if you have never compiled anything in linux, bootstrapping a distribution is far beyond your skills
Aug 18 04:52:00 <mdavison> right then this means that meego sdk doesnt have anything to do with building distros  :S
Aug 18 04:52:01 <ali1234> i disagree actually
Aug 18 04:52:10 <ali1234> if you follow LFS it's all laid out pretty easily for you
Aug 18 04:52:43 <mdavison> I can handle bootstrapping .. i've got some experience working with packages in OE
Aug 18 04:52:44 <Stskeeps> mdavison: we use OBS to build the distro :)
Aug 18 04:52:45 <sofar> gee, you're so critical
Aug 18 04:53:01 <sofar> ali1234: can't you just ... go along with people?
Aug 18 04:53:08 <Stskeeps> mdavison: grab an account on build.opensuse.org and poke around in projects to see how it works in general
Aug 18 04:53:08 <ali1234> no
Aug 18 04:53:23 <mdavison> Stskeeps: thanks
Aug 18 04:53:47 <mdavison> i was actually googleing for meego sdk
Aug 18 04:53:55 <sofar> that's a good pointer
Aug 18 04:54:04 <mdavison> now it appears that it doesnt have anything to do with building distros yea?
Aug 18 04:54:15 <sofar> correct
Aug 18 04:54:16 <ali1234> correct
Aug 18 04:54:25 <sofar> the meego sdk is not something that builds an entire distro
Aug 18 04:54:26 <Stskeeps> mdavison: meego sdk is usually for building apps in general - it gets messy with a lot of dependancies
Aug 18 04:54:28 <ali1234> most of the meego packages won't actually compile in the SDK :/
Aug 18 04:54:39 <mdavison> gee... there goes 2 hrs :(
Aug 18 04:54:49 <ali1234> i have a list somewhere but it is out of date
Aug 18 04:54:55 <mdavison> Stskeeps: yea i got to that point :D
Aug 18 04:54:58 <sofar> ali1234: file bugreports?
Aug 18 04:56:23 <ali1234> sofar: i will one day
Aug 18 04:56:36 <sofar> we need them today
Aug 18 04:56:53 <ali1234> well, make a port to AMD you can have them
Aug 18 04:57:03 <sofar> can't complain in irc and withold bugs from meego devs
Aug 18 04:57:16 <sofar> sorry, I get paid to do the ssse3 port only
Aug 18 04:57:31 <sofar> but, sdk bugs are not platform specific
Aug 18 04:57:34 <ali1234> well then you'll just have to wait until i finish porting the SDK to AMD
Aug 18 04:58:04 <sofar> file a bug about that
Aug 18 04:58:35 <Stskeeps> sofar: out of curiousity, what do you work on in meego?
Aug 18 04:58:40 <sofar> <- auke
Aug 18 04:58:50 <Stskeeps> ah
Aug 18 04:58:57 <Stskeeps> well i wouldn't have been able to guess that :)
Aug 18 04:59:23 <sofar> which doesn't answer your question ;)
Aug 18 04:59:38 <Stskeeps> i don't even know what i work on at times, besides meego arm/n900 in general :P
Aug 18 04:59:47 <sofar> fastboot, core stack, uxlaunch, dbus/udev, pam parts, anything about booting to X really
Aug 18 05:00:17 <sofar> I also lead the distro engineering team in oregon, although I'm not an official manager
Aug 18 05:00:28 <sofar> day-to-day engineering stuff
Aug 18 05:00:30 * Stskeeps has a fun day of trying to find out why gcc on arm is generating random W: shlib-with-non-pic-code
Aug 18 05:00:54 <sofar> yeah
Aug 18 05:01:00 <sofar> pic-or-die
Aug 18 05:01:03 <Stskeeps> which is kinda bad when entire qt is un-prelinkable
Aug 18 05:01:11 <sofar> nod
Aug 18 05:01:23 <sofar> wait qt-on-arm is not pic?
Aug 18 05:01:27 <slonopotamus> pic-a-choo
Aug 18 05:01:47 <sofar> I need to get mysefl a beagleboard or something
Aug 18 05:02:04 <Stskeeps> sofar: the stupid part is that all the object code is built with -fPIC but there's like a TEXTREL with zero entries in it
Aug 18 05:02:16 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: gcc 4.5 has at least four bugs making it unusable on armv7.
Aug 18 05:02:23 <sofar> can you strip that entire section perhaps?
Aug 18 05:02:31 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: i mean, four armv7-specific bugs
Aug 18 05:02:35 <Stskeeps> slonopotamus: which?
Aug 18 05:02:39 <Stskeeps> sofar: i'd rather figure out what causes it at first
Aug 18 05:02:49 <sofar> true
Aug 18 05:02:59 <Stskeeps> i've found some smaller libraries causing the same problem so will look into that today
Aug 18 05:03:02 <Stskeeps> (non-qt)
Aug 18 05:03:09 * sofar ctrl-alt-left's off
Aug 18 05:07:03 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: PR43698, PR45070,  PR45094, PR43440
Aug 18 05:07:36 <Stskeeps> slonopotamus: thanks
Aug 18 05:08:00 <Stskeeps> first one we have a fix for
Aug 18 05:10:04 <Stskeeps> two,three doesn't directly affect us, fourth is neon specific, we don't use neon
Aug 18 05:15:20 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: afaik, gentoo decided to just skip 4.5
Aug 18 05:25:09 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: does meego have some policy on hw requirements changes?
Aug 18 05:25:28 <Stskeeps> slonopotamus: hmm?
Aug 18 05:27:50 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: can't that happen that tomorrow meego _suddenly_ requires OpenGL 4.0 to run?
Aug 18 05:29:03 <slonopotamus> Stskeeps: current ssse3 requirement is strange already.
Aug 18 05:29:12 <Stskeeps> slonopotamus: that'll be have to be roadmapped and ssse3 is a longer story
Aug 18 05:30:12 * Stskeeps goes back to figuring out the stupid fpic issue
Aug 18 05:30:24 <slonopotamus> isn't ssse3 is just a question of replacing/#ifdeffing ssse3 assembly with something more sane?
Aug 18 05:48:58 <dl9pf> ali1234: ok, how far did you come ? whats the issue ?
Aug 18 06:01:54 <mdavison> Stskeeps: is there guide/document that can help me set up a meego build on OBS?
Aug 18 06:02:47 <Stskeeps> http://wiki.meego.com/Build_Infrastructure is a good start
Aug 18 06:03:10 <Stskeeps> and http://wiki.meego.com/Category:Build_Infrastructure
Aug 18 06:04:02 <mdavison> thanks
Aug 18 06:48:07 <thangam_arun> hello all
Aug 18 06:48:36 <thangam_arun> i am compiling a Darwin Streaming server 6.0.3 on meego  netbook SDK
Aug 18 06:48:57 <thangam_arun> getting some undefined reference erro
Aug 18 06:49:11 <thangam_arun> undefined reference to `pthread_mutexattr_init'  undefined reference to `pthread_once`   undefined reference to `pthread_mutex_trylock'
Aug 18 06:49:18 <thangam_arun> kindly help me on this
Aug 18 06:49:47 <Stskeeps>  -lpthread i think
Aug 18 06:49:47 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 06:52:34 <thangam_arun> Stskeeps:i think it is linking  http://pastebin.com/uDifWVw9
Aug 18 06:53:04 <thangam_arun> Stskeeps: can you please look at the link
Aug 18 06:53:34 <Stskeeps> dunno, maybe link order
Aug 18 06:54:07 <thangam_arun> Stskeeps: how to relove this
Aug 18 06:54:52 <Stskeeps> not sure sorry, but same way other linux os's does it
Aug 18 07:06:59 <thangam_arun> Stskeeps: i am compiling the source from ".spec" file
Aug 18 07:07:15 <thangam_arun> Stskeeps: So how to approach this ?
Aug 18 07:45:53 <seshucl> Hello
Aug 18 07:46:21 <seshucl> I have an ARM board in the netbook form
Aug 18 07:46:47 <seshucl> Will I be able to install MeeGo Code OS on it?
Aug 18 07:47:15 <seshucl> *Core
Aug 18 07:47:24 <Stskeeps> can you boot your own kernel and rootfs
Aug 18 07:47:25 <Stskeeps> ?
Aug 18 07:47:35 <seshucl> yes
Aug 18 07:47:41 <seshucl> I can...
Aug 18 07:47:47 <Stskeeps> seshucl: ARMv5, ARMv6, ARMv7?
Aug 18 07:47:54 <seshucl> ARMv7
Aug 18 07:48:15 <Stskeeps> then that's a yes
Aug 18 07:49:14 <seshucl> Great to know...do I have to download meego-n900-open-armv7l-1.0.0.20100525.1-vmlinuz-2.6.33.3-11.2-n900
Aug 18 07:50:01 <Stskeeps> no, just the rootfs
Aug 18 07:51:58 <seshucl> Stskeeps: Can you please elaborate...sorry, I'm being a spoon fed baby!
Aug 18 07:56:05 <vlj> vgrade: hi
Aug 18 07:56:19 <slaine> morning all
Aug 18 07:58:25 <Khertan1> Morningg all !
Aug 18 07:58:51 <Stskeeps> morn Khertan1
Aug 18 08:03:17 <seshucl> Okay...anyways, thanks for the pointers/hints...I think I can work my way through
Aug 18 08:03:30 <seshucl> ...atleast to some extent...
Aug 18 08:06:13 <Stskeeps> seshucl: sorry, was doing some work
Aug 18 08:06:48 <Stskeeps> seshucl: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.80.15.20100817.1/core/images/meego-core-armv7l-n900/
Aug 18 08:07:05 <Stskeeps> raw.tar.bz2 has a sd card image inside
Aug 18 08:08:36 <seshucl> Stskeeps: no worries my friend. That's more then what I need to head start...
Aug 18 08:08:48 <seshucl> Thank you again!
Aug 18 08:11:29 <vgrade_> vlj, morning
Aug 18 08:12:11 <vlj> morning vgrade_
Aug 18 08:15:13 <dcthang> morning everyone
Aug 18 08:16:18 <sivang> morning all
Aug 18 08:16:28 <sivang> where does one indicate he needs conference sponsership to attend?
Aug 18 08:17:36 <seshucl> sivang: ??
Aug 18 08:18:25 <sivang> seshucl: s/conference/travel exapnses/
Aug 18 08:18:51 <seshucl> ok..you mean the Qt developer conf?
Aug 18 08:18:59 <Stskeeps> no, conference2010.meego.com
Aug 18 08:19:22 <sivang> seshucl: Qt developer conf could be great, but there's just so many confs a man can attend a year :)
Aug 18 08:19:40 <sivang> but yes, what Stskeeps said
Aug 18 08:20:15 <Jaffa> sivang: On the registration screen there's a checkbox for "assistance"
Aug 18 08:20:24 <X-Fade> Morning Jaffa
Aug 18 08:20:34 <X-Fade> Morning Jaffa
Aug 18 08:20:36 <sivang> Jaffa: I see, thanks.
Aug 18 08:20:39 <sivang> morning X-Fade
Aug 18 08:20:53 <X-Fade> Damn multiple windows redrawing badly ;)
Aug 18 08:20:58 <sivang> heh
Aug 18 08:21:09 <sivang> what desktop env?
Aug 18 08:21:23 <X-Fade> xterm ;)
Aug 18 08:21:43 <X-Fade> But irrssi in a screen, and irssi with 10 window split ;)
Aug 18 08:21:48 <sivang> ah, well, I still use gnome-term and IRSSI, until I switch to MeeGo
Aug 18 08:21:56 <sivang> ah, same here
Aug 18 08:22:05 <sivang> good for me latency is not so latent today! :)
Aug 18 08:27:46 <seshucl> sivang: Question - Is there a place where you'd/somebody would post the presentations, new update etc so people who could not attend can read and update themselves.
Aug 18 08:28:27 <seshucl> *new update = news updates/conf updates.
Aug 18 08:34:52 <sivang> seshucl: I'm sure something like that would be set up, also I should propose to use some online collaboration tools, like that distributed text editor for example comonly used in Ubuntu conferences.
Aug 18 08:35:48 <seshucl> Sure, that will help! :-)
Aug 18 08:36:49 <dcthang> Has anybody here installed kde on meego?
Aug 18 08:37:43 <sivang> seshucl: this is one tool http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/
Aug 18 08:38:01 <sivang> seshucl: also, google docs seems to carry promises for effective online collaboration
Aug 18 08:45:59 <seshucl> well, yes...reading a bit about these tool/features...
Aug 18 08:47:24 <seshucl> Stskeeps & sivang: What's your time zone..., If I may ask?
Aug 18 08:51:55 <sivang> seshucl: UTC+2 (+1 for DS)
Aug 18 09:00:09 <seshucl> Well, thanks...I'm UTC-7
Aug 18 09:00:58 <seshucl> Catch you guys soon again...have a nice day. Bye.
Aug 18 09:11:37 * thiago times the meego boot
Aug 18 09:12:20 <thiago> 20 seconds from power button to usable meego
Aug 18 09:12:32 <thiago> 10 of which were spent on POST
Aug 18 09:13:20 <Stskeeps> thiago: so, we don't have NEON in meego qt on armv7l - how bad a thing is this?
Aug 18 09:14:10 <thiago> Qt compiles with Neon always, if it finds that the compiler supports it
Aug 18 09:14:12 <thiago> you can't turn it off
Aug 18 09:14:31 <Stskeeps> thiago: hmm
Aug 18 09:16:18 <Stskeeps> thiago: well, we don't have neon as we don't have -mfpu=neon according to log
Aug 18 09:16:41 <Stskeeps> as in, we don't have it in optimization flags
Aug 18 09:16:45 <Stskeeps> (intended, afaik)
Aug 18 09:16:55 <thiago> Qt enables it
Aug 18 09:17:29 <Stskeeps> http://pastebin.com/EgBBQwvG
Aug 18 09:17:32 <thiago> the same way that Qt enables MMX, SSE and SSE2 on x86
Aug 18 09:18:07 <thiago> it's not the -mfpu= that is missing
Aug 18 09:18:13 <thiago> it's the -mfloat-abi=
Aug 18 09:18:16 <thiago> it must be softfp or hard
Aug 18 09:18:33 <Stskeeps> hmm
Aug 18 09:19:04 <Stskeeps> + CFLAGS='-O2 -g -pipe -Wall -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -fexceptions -fstack-protector --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -fmessage-length=0 -march=armv7-a -mtune=cortex-a8 -mlittle-endian -mfpu=vfpv3 -mfloat-abi=softfp -D__SOFTFP__'
Aug 18 09:19:08 <Stskeeps> or does it use CXXFLAGS?
Aug 18 09:19:15 <thiago> not for all tests
Aug 18 09:19:19 <thiago> Qt doesn't like environment variables
Aug 18 09:19:24 <thiago> modify the mkspec
Aug 18 09:19:54 <Stskeeps> k
Aug 18 09:20:53 <Stskeeps> i think the issue is a bit that not all armv7 has neon so it's not enabled by default (nvidia, marvell) in meego armv7
Aug 18 09:23:29 <Stskeeps> in cases like that some run-time detection or even config would be good, for omap and so on to take advantage of neon
Aug 18 09:23:53 <Stskeeps> as recompiling entire qt might be a bit overkill/cause other problems
Aug 18 09:45:45 <sivang> not meaning to interrupt, but I'm curious to learn about this- So Neon is a 2D/3D gfx hardware acceleration in the ARM arch ? or for any general purpose arithmatics
Aug 18 09:45:48 <sivang> ?
Aug 18 09:46:21 <sivang> how it is used, where etc, is there a meego doc about that?
Aug 18 09:46:35 <lcuk> my understanding was that its for large vector operations - upto 128bit afaik
Aug 18 09:47:02 <sivang> lcuk: so to enable matrices calcs in parallel ? (I read that it's a packed SIMD)
Aug 18 09:47:31 <lcuk> thats how I read it too - I might be wrong but until then thats what I think ;)
Aug 18 09:47:38 <CosmoHill> Morning.
Aug 18 09:47:41 <sivang> okay, thanks lcuk :)
Aug 18 09:49:25 <slaine> vgrade, looking at the irc log ont he GMA500/joggler wiki page
Aug 18 09:49:40 <slaine> you asked arjan a question, poked him a few times and then thanked him
Aug 18 09:49:46 <slaine> Did he respond off lost ?
Aug 18 09:49:49 <slaine> sorry
Aug 18 09:49:51 <slaine> off the channel ?
Aug 18 09:50:22 <Stskeeps> vgrade_: i think you're barking up the wrong tree - arjan has nothing to deal with emgd - it's a different department. they had a legit problem - no right to redistribute on repo.meego.com
Aug 18 09:55:54 <thiago> Stskeeps: Qt detects Neon at runtime (I think...)
Aug 18 09:56:05 <thiago> I actually don't know if it can be detected
Aug 18 09:56:18 <CosmoHill> thiago: would it tell you that in config.log ?
Aug 18 09:56:51 <thiago> no, it can't be detected at runtime
Aug 18 09:57:01 <thiago> but it can be disabled at runtime (QT_NO_NEON=1)
Aug 18 09:57:13 <X-Fade> It is in /proc/cpuinfo, but that doesn't help when building ;)
Aug 18 09:57:14 <Stskeeps> ah, that might be useful
Aug 18 09:57:54 <thiago> we don't have assembly code for detecting its presence
Aug 18 09:58:06 <thiago> reading from /proc/cpuinfo is a good idea
Aug 18 09:59:16 <CosmoHill> cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep neon > /dev/null; echo $?
Aug 18 09:59:28 <thiago> programmatically :-)
Aug 18 09:59:34 <thiago> in src/corelib/tools/qsimd.cpp
Aug 18 09:59:50 <thiago> RESULT : tst_QString::ucstrncmp():"shortwise":
Aug 18 09:59:51 <X-Fade> Also gets karma from external sources like digg and technorati etc.
Aug 18 09:59:52 <sivang> thiago: opening the file and readLine() it? :)
Aug 18 09:59:54 <thiago>      36,085,242.5 CPU ticks per iteration (total: 144,340,970, iterations: 4)
Aug 18 10:00:07 <thiago> RESULT : tst_QString::ucstrncmp():"ssse3": 27,594,897.5 CPU ticks per iteration (total: 110,379,590, iterations: 4)
Aug 18 10:00:11 <X-Fade> -EWINDOW :(
Aug 18 10:00:16 <thiago> for those wondering if ssse3 makes a difference
Aug 18 10:00:31 <thiago> 25% faster
Aug 18 10:03:04 <Stskeeps> thiago: out of morbid curiousity, does QT_NO_SSSE3 exist too?
Aug 18 10:03:20 <thiago> as an environment variable? no
Aug 18 10:03:37 <thiago> currently, all SSSE3 code is runtime-checked
Aug 18 10:03:43 <Stskeeps> ok
Aug 18 10:03:52 <thiago> on x86, we can do cpuid
Aug 18 10:04:05 <CosmoHill> thiago: ooo
Aug 18 10:04:25 <sivang> thiago: isn't ssse3 only for intel procs?
Aug 18 10:04:33 <Stskeeps> does the compile flags with -fssse3 (or whatever) try to optimize any code or is just so you have access to SSSE3 instructions?
Aug 18 10:05:06 <thiago> sivang: yes
Aug 18 10:05:18 <thiago> Stskeeps: they try to optimise code
Aug 18 10:05:27 <thiago> which makes it very hard for us to enable such features
Aug 18 10:05:36 <thiago> we need separate .cpp for each featureset
Aug 18 10:05:44 <sivang> ah okay, I Was wondering why in the discussion on armv7 you guys move to talk about ssse3 :)
Aug 18 10:05:45 <slaine> that's the right way imo
Aug 18 10:05:46 <thiago> and the expense of the call is sometimes not worth it
Aug 18 10:05:52 <Stskeeps> sivang: similar type of thing
Aug 18 10:06:08 <thiago> so for the QString optimisations, I'm not going to insert CPU detection
Aug 18 10:06:17 <thiago> if you compile with -mssse3, you get it, otherwise you don't
Aug 18 10:07:08 <sivang> ah, so intel's SIMD instruction set as Neon is arm's
Aug 18 10:07:14 <thiago> yes
Aug 18 10:07:17 <slaine> nod
Aug 18 10:07:20 <Stskeeps> i wonder if the NEON one applies in same way, ie, we cannot reliably assume that QT_NO_NEON will actually avoid 'non neon instructions'?
Aug 18 10:07:22 <thiago> except that there are multiple levels of SIMD on x86
Aug 18 10:07:39 <thiago> SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, 4.2, 4a
Aug 18 10:07:57 <sivang> thiago: wow I see, they differ in bitness?
Aug 18 10:08:04 <thiago> more instructions
Aug 18 10:08:04 <slaine> Isn't ssse3 a subset of sse3 ?
Aug 18 10:08:09 <thiago> slaine: superset
Aug 18 10:08:19 <slaine> ah
Aug 18 10:11:10 <lbt> nb thiago, I don't think there's an issue as to whether ssse3 should be present.... it's more about asking if it has to be enabled in such a way as to affect every single binary...
Aug 18 10:11:24 <thiago> depends on the case
Aug 18 10:11:29 <lbt> the load to support non-ssse3 is now *every* package
Aug 18 10:11:46 <lbt> does cron really benefit?
Aug 18 10:11:52 <lbt> or cat?
Aug 18 10:11:56 <thiago> if it's easy to separate out and then do CPU detection, do it
Aug 18 10:12:06 <thiago> we've done for all the large image and painting operations
Aug 18 10:12:25 <thiago> my problem is qstring.cpp
Aug 18 10:12:35 <thiago> the benefit is not in the 4x range, but in the 20% range
Aug 18 10:12:55 <thiago> and that's quickly offset by the complexity required to do the CPU detection and extra call
Aug 18 10:13:22 <thiago> the compiler cannot inline the code because it's in a separate .cpp
Aug 18 10:13:33 <CosmoHill> so it benefits from ssse3 but the benefits are canceled out by the need to detect ssse3?
Aug 18 10:13:44 <thiago> and I can't put it in the same .cpp otherwise the rest of the code might use instructions not present
Aug 18 10:13:47 <timeless> compilers doing PGO can, right?
Aug 18 10:13:47 <thiago> CosmoHill: yes
Aug 18 10:14:04 <thiago> timeless: no, manually-written intrinsics in the .cpp file
Aug 18 10:14:49 <thiago> I can't use the intrinsics unless the respective compiler flag was passed on the command-line
Aug 18 10:14:54 <lcuk> thiago, I saw some stats on the various qt string functions
Aug 18 10:15:08 <lcuk> the one that stood out as benefit/usability was the 4byte long one
Aug 18 10:15:18 <thiago> lcuk: yeah
Aug 18 10:15:30 <lcuk> it wasnt the fastest, but it was certainly the most usable on multiplatform
Aug 18 10:15:33 <timeless> isn't this a case where one just wants to cpu detect and pull in the right library or function pointer?
Aug 18 10:16:05 <thiago> timeless: the indirect call is far too expensive
Aug 18 10:16:09 <timeless> from memory you one can do some pretty evil things as part of library initialization
Aug 18 10:16:27 <timeless> people think of it as merely being static code, but it isn't
Aug 18 10:16:32 <lcuk> sure timeless, but its the inline functions that will suffer
Aug 18 10:16:52 <timeless> lcuk: if they aren't in the same .cpp, then they aren't going to be inlined, right?
Aug 18 10:16:56 <timeless> wasn't that thiago's point?
Aug 18 10:17:07 <thiago> lcuk: I've spent the past week trying to optimise the functions to compare strings in Qt
Aug 18 10:17:25 <lcuk> yes, and possibly it was your result list I saw thiago
Aug 18 10:17:28 <thiago> lcuk: on my i7, using SIMD helps a lot
Aug 18 10:17:37 <thiago> but on the Atom, the unaligned loads are a penalty
Aug 18 10:17:57 <thiago> hence the attempt to use SSSE3, to reduce the number of unaligned loads
Aug 18 10:18:18 <lcuk> the 4byte one stands out to me
Aug 18 10:18:29 <lcuk> because its similar to how I was mucking with the blitter
Aug 18 10:18:43 <thiago> yeah, it depends on the bus width
Aug 18 10:18:50 <thiago> I'm not sure the Atom can do 16-byte loads in one cycle
Aug 18 10:18:55 <thiago> the i7 can
Aug 18 10:19:24 <lcuk> but in the little set of results, those operations did not give uber benefit over the normal one?
Aug 18 10:19:41 <thiago> 20-25% improvement
Aug 18 10:19:53 <thiago> ucstrncmp is the most-called function in qstring.cpp
Aug 18 10:20:26 <lcuk> cool
Aug 18 10:21:53 <CosmoHill> will a intel GMA3100 work with meego?
Aug 18 10:23:34 <sivang> timeless: PGO requires static previous execution metrics, how is this usually done? </curious>
Aug 18 10:23:39 <CosmoHill> or a X4500HD?
Aug 18 10:23:49 <sivang> timeless: (at least so wikipedia says)
Aug 18 10:24:45 <timeless> typically you run your app through some paces building traces
Aug 18 10:25:08 <timeless> you can either do this as part of a two pass build system, or collect them once and store them w/ your build system
Aug 18 10:25:16 <timeless> netscape did the latter ~8 years ago
Aug 18 10:25:22 <timeless> mozilla is doing the former today iiuc
Aug 18 10:26:49 <sivang> and the data has to be stored somewhere, but I take it it is light and not a space overhead?
Aug 18 10:27:08 <timeless> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/building_with_profile-guided_optimization
Aug 18 10:27:38 <sivang> ah no, it is profiling and then modifying the machine code to match, I had the crazy idea it can do that in runtime.
Aug 18 10:27:46 <timeless> if you're doing it as part of a two pass build system, then it only has to last for the life span of a build
Aug 18 10:27:54 <sivang> yes
Aug 18 10:27:58 * sivang read the mozilla link
Aug 18 10:28:09 <timeless> the laternative is when you store the data as netscape did w/ the sources
Aug 18 10:28:13 <timeless> s/lat/alt/
Aug 18 10:28:13 <infobot> timeless meant: the alternative is when you store the data as netscape did w/ the sources
Aug 18 10:28:29 <timeless> the problem w/ that is that the data tends to get stale/out-of-date
Aug 18 10:28:46 <sivang> right, so you need frequent profiling runs with every change?
Aug 18 10:29:04 <timeless> the builders which do PGO do profiling as part of each build
Aug 18 10:29:07 <timeless> the build is two pass
Aug 18 10:29:22 <timeless> first it builds w/o hints then it profiles and rebuilds using the data
Aug 18 10:30:01 <sivang> why were netscape doing the latter then?
Aug 18 10:30:21 <timeless> much faster build system
Aug 18 10:30:31 <timeless> all engineers could share the build process
Aug 18 10:30:37 <timeless> and only one person had to update the profile data
Aug 18 10:30:43 <timeless> using a possibly secret dataset
Aug 18 10:30:59 <timeless> the number of cpu cycles for the netscape system is much lower
Aug 18 10:31:05 <timeless> but the results aren't as good
Aug 18 10:31:11 <timeless> it's a tradeoff
Aug 18 10:31:16 <timeless> which isn't so bad if you think about it
Aug 18 10:31:17 <sivang> ah I see.
Aug 18 10:31:46 <timeless> remember netscape only needed good profile results for shipped binaries (official releases)
Aug 18 10:32:45 <timeless> actually, the same logic more or less applies today
Aug 18 10:32:48 <sivang> given low number of cpu cycles for the build, increasing them meant increasing resulting performance? (more optimization passes at the resulting binary)
Aug 18 10:33:08 <timeless> but the problem is that if you don't do profiling regularly, it's very easy for the code for it to rust
Aug 18 10:33:15 <timeless> which means you won't spot problems until it's too late
Aug 18 10:33:46 <timeless> well, that depends
Aug 18 10:33:49 <sivang> (optimization pass in my understanding- reorganizing the resulting code to be better perfromant then the previous pass)
Aug 18 10:33:59 <timeless> in theory it's possible that the netscape guided profile was more thorough
Aug 18 10:34:47 <sivang> oh
Aug 18 10:34:58 <CosmoHill> I've just speced up a computer which I think is meego compatable for £362.47
Aug 18 10:35:07 <timeless> i'm not sure ...
Aug 18 10:35:19 <timeless> cosmohill: get insurance against it being compatible :)
Aug 18 10:35:33 <CosmoHill> well I'm not going to buy it, it costs money :(
Aug 18 10:36:07 <sivang> CosmoHill: there's that cheap LG neotebook :)
Aug 18 10:36:21 <sivang> CosmoHill: I got it for quite cheap and Arjan told me meego should run every well there :)
Aug 18 10:37:29 <CosmoHill> if I wanted to I could use a i5 750
Aug 18 10:37:37 <sivang> CosmoHill: http://www.itechnews.net/2009/10/23/lg-xnote-t380-gr73k-culv-notebook-with-windows-7/
Aug 18 10:37:49 <CosmoHill> that would being the price up to 428.27
Aug 18 10:38:01 <sivang> CosmoHill: midn the irritating keyboard and typing miss, and you are sorted :)
Aug 18 10:38:01 <CosmoHill> oo
Aug 18 10:39:08 <CosmoHill> what I was aiming for was a cheap developer desktop which could be upgraded
Aug 18 10:39:57 <sivang> CosmoHill: I managed to build Qt on it in just a bit less then 4 hours
Aug 18 10:39:59 <sivang> :)
Aug 18 10:40:06 <CosmoHill> lol
Aug 18 10:40:24 <CosmoHill> my personal best ( worst) is GCC with tests in 25 hours
Aug 18 10:40:46 <CosmoHill> I think next time I do that I'm moving that computer out of my bedroom
Aug 18 10:41:16 <CosmoHill> anyway I'll let you get back to your discussion that I interrupted
Aug 18 10:45:51 <npr664> hello! do you know something about Pinta package?
Aug 18 10:46:49 <ismael> Hi  npr664!
Aug 18 10:46:52 * timeless beats the stuffing out of:
Aug 18 10:46:57 <timeless> warning: detected divergent renames of toolkit/mozapps/extensions/test/addons/test_bug542391_3/install.rdf to:
Aug 18 10:48:29 <npr664> Hi Isamel!
Aug 18 11:09:03 <teizz> Quick question, I'm trying to get "Handset UX weekly 1.0.80.13.20100803.2 kernel" to use /dev/mccblk1p1 (microsd-card) as rootfs.
Aug 18 11:09:41 <teizz> default is waits for /dev/mmcblk0p1 and shutsdown after a while
Aug 18 11:10:03 <teizz> giving root=/dev/mmcblk1p1 as boot option results in a panic
Aug 18 11:10:09 <CosmoHill> do you have more than one CD card?
Aug 18 11:10:10 <Stskeeps> did you put your back cover on?
Aug 18 11:10:12 <CosmoHill> *SD
Aug 18 11:10:41 <teizz> this is on a n900, just one sd card, and the cover is back on :)
Aug 18 11:11:31 <Stskeeps> microsd will be mmcblk0p1 at boot
Aug 18 11:12:10 <sivang> CosmoHill: oh and I don't you interrupted any discussion :)
Aug 18 11:12:19 <CosmoHill> yay
Aug 18 11:12:45 <sivang> s//think/
Aug 18 11:13:04 <teizz> Stskeeps: ah, that clears it up somewhat. I dd'ed the raw to my sd card in maemo. I'll get a cardreader and see if that works better :)
Aug 18 11:13:46 <teizz> mounting it in maemo however does show the rootfs so why the kernel is waiting for it and then shuts down, I don't know
Aug 18 11:14:30 * sivang should fine the time to upgrade to pr1.2 :-p
Aug 18 11:21:04 <maclaver> teizz: I had similar problems yesterday, there was something strange about dd'ing into the SD on the N900.  I got around it using the windows disk imager.
Aug 18 11:21:36 <maclaver> teizz: (If you have a windows box that is).
Aug 18 11:22:36 <teizz> maclaver: I have a linux box, but no mmc->sd converter to read the card. I should run to the shop and pick one up :)
Aug 18 11:23:45 <sivang> hmm so Canonical rolled they own touch framework?
Aug 18 11:23:57 <sivang> *their
Aug 18 11:24:07 <teizz> maclaver: I do see however, with the cover removed that it continues past the 'waiting for /dev/mmcblk0p1'. but I'm guessing it found the internal card then?
Aug 18 11:24:15 <sivang> no already existing frameworks used?
Aug 18 11:37:15 <teizz> ah! I did have a magnet laying around. turns out it does boot when I remove my battery, put a magnet to simulate cover presence and replace battery while running the flasher
Aug 18 11:37:34 <teizz> <-- n00b
Aug 18 11:37:49 <CosmoHill> teizz: no idea why that set off my highlight
Aug 18 11:38:02 <CosmoHill> first person who says "cos it said n00b" gets a smack
Aug 18 11:38:21 <teizz> lol
Aug 18 11:51:03 <robtaylor> Who's sysadminning the meego conference site? I just got an error on uploading a profile pic
Aug 18 11:51:07 <robtaylor>     * The selected file sites/all/files/tmp/profileRob.jpg could not be uploaded, because the destination is not properly configured.
Aug 18 11:51:10 <robtaylor>     * Failed to upload the picture image; the user_pics directory doesn't exist or is not writable.
Aug 18 11:52:33 <vgrade_> slaine, Stekeeps, The thanks was for his non response to my repeated question,  I took that to mean GMA500 will never have a future in MeeGo. I understand that the EMGD drivers should not have been on repo.meego but wanted to know if Arjan had any plans for the future.
Aug 18 11:52:59 <Stskeeps> vgrade_: generally it's a bit rude to constantly repeat a question :P this isn't a tabloid :)
Aug 18 11:53:56 <slaine> What's the difference between the non-OSS repo that the WiMax drivers are in and the EMGD drivers requirements ?
Aug 18 11:54:17 <slaine> Do you have to sign an NDA to use the latest psb drivers ?
Aug 18 11:59:26 <vlj> slaine: psb driver != emgd driver
Aug 18 11:59:53 <vlj> psb was written by dell+ubuntu
Aug 18 11:59:58 <vlj> emgd is written by intel
Aug 18 12:00:23 <slaine> was just using it as a short version of poulsbo or however you spell it
Aug 18 12:00:37 <slaine> didn't realize there was another driver called psb
Aug 18 12:00:50 <vlj> psb is the driver shipped with ubuntu
Aug 18 12:00:58 <slaine> got it
Aug 18 12:01:10 <vlj> emgd is a not yet publicy shipped driver
Aug 18 12:02:06 <vgrade_> Stskeeps, and also rude not to answer :)
Aug 18 12:05:16 <sid3windr> hey vgrade_ - I made an image using your instructions and have meego "up" and running, however is it normal I only have a clock and an xterm on screen?
Aug 18 12:07:58 <sid3windr> (right in time for the emgd drivers, too ;)
Aug 18 12:08:44 <Stskeeps> slaine, non-oss only contains redistributable bits
Aug 18 12:09:17 <slaine> right, so needs nda at the moment iirc
Aug 18 12:09:31 <slaine> as vlj commented, it's not released yet
Aug 18 12:09:39 <Stskeeps> slaine, imgtec has allowed this for pvr-bin so not a far throw to emgd
Aug 18 12:09:43 * sid3windr is working with intel to get emgd nda'd, too
Aug 18 12:10:03 <sid3windr> well, with 4 people in between anyway
Aug 18 12:10:19 <Stskeeps> bureaucracy is always fun
Aug 18 12:10:25 <slaine> I'll say again, it's a pity is such a bloody mess. The hardware seems to be quit capable
Aug 18 12:10:34 <slaine> quite
Aug 18 12:10:52 <timeless> you prefer clean messes?
Aug 18 12:10:59 <timeless> or pink messes?
Aug 18 12:11:03 <Stskeeps> i dont fully understand why the xorg driver is closed though
Aug 18 12:11:20 <vlj> because it was closed in iegd
Aug 18 12:11:24 <Stskeeps> libs, no problem, xorg..
Aug 18 12:11:25 <timeless> it probably discloses spec details about unannounced products
Aug 18 12:11:38 <Stskeeps> ah, legacy..
Aug 18 12:11:54 <timeless> historically drivers disclose things like the specific supplier vendor, resolution of display, camera, etc
Aug 18 12:14:16 <timeless> oh, in other news, as of around aug 11 or 13 or so, mozilla is using gcc4.5.1 in some env
Aug 18 12:14:58 <sivang> ah, GMA500
Aug 18 12:16:25 <Phazorx> hrm... can nyone pleas suggest a reason why connman fails to connect after reboot (and forgets WPA2 cridentials)?
Aug 18 12:16:57 <Stskeeps> Phazorx: does your MAC change?
Aug 18 12:17:28 <Phazorx> on reboot? unlikely
Aug 18 12:17:44 <Phazorx> at least i dont have any scripts that force the change
Aug 18 12:19:04 <vgrade_> sid3windr, close the xtern and the clock, you should then have the UX
Aug 18 12:20:23 <sivang> the current yotubes for Joggler are meego with emgd in?
Aug 18 12:21:11 <Stskeeps> yeah
Aug 18 12:21:11 <vgrade_> sivang, yes
Aug 18 12:21:21 <sivang> nice
Aug 18 12:21:22 <Stskeeps> so it is quite capable driver
Aug 18 12:21:50 <sivang> so MeeGo is a natural Linux distro for those millions of netbooks using it :)
Aug 18 12:22:21 <Stskeeps> if only licensing was right.
Aug 18 12:22:26 <sivang> back then I bought an ION based machine because Ubuntu did not support it
Aug 18 12:22:36 <sivang> for netbook, that is.
Aug 18 12:22:41 * CosmoHill is in uni now ;)
Aug 18 12:22:55 <sivang> Stskeeps: is it NDA'd or requires a contributor's agreenment?
Aug 18 12:23:10 <Phazorx> Stskeeps: i actualyy see in dmesg that it does authenticate but panel icon keeps spinning and something blocks from providing it the service, then it fail - i retype same key and it reconnects with no issues
Aug 18 12:23:46 <Stskeeps> sivang: atm non-released as the emgd on repo.meego.com was there by accident
Aug 18 12:24:04 <sivang> ah I see.
Aug 18 12:24:26 <vgrade_> it is other places
Aug 18 12:30:15 <sid3windr> vgrade_: oh, doh =)
Aug 18 12:30:26 <sid3windr> vgrade_: thanks btw for the kickstart files and this tip ;)
Aug 18 12:31:16 <Phazorx> lame question.. how can i get automake/autoconf work under meego?
Aug 18 12:31:37 <Phazorx> yum/zypper dont see the packages... are they bundled and shipped as something else?
Aug 18 12:31:44 <vgrade_> sidwindr, what platform are you on?
Aug 18 12:32:05 <vgrade_> sid3windr, what platform are you on
Aug 18 12:32:07 <sid3windr> custom atom tablet with gma500
Aug 18 12:32:32 <vgrade_> custom?
Aug 18 12:32:36 <vgrade_> pics, video
Aug 18 12:32:48 <sid3windr> custom as in "developed by $customer"
Aug 18 12:32:56 <sid3windr> can't disclose anything yet unfortunately :)
Aug 18 12:33:14 <vlj> sivang: your ion machine does not work with emgd, does it ?
Aug 18 12:33:37 <sid3windr> touchscreen doesnt work yet, but we'll be changing to another touchscreen anyway so I'm not spending time on that yet
Aug 18 12:33:54 <sid3windr> I'm already happy it starts, with Stskeeps' ks I didn't get that far a few months ago :[
Aug 18 12:34:23 <sivang> vlj: nope, it has ION, it uses ether nv or nvidia
Aug 18 12:34:34 <vlj> err
Aug 18 12:34:42 <sivang> vlj: emgd is capable of running nVidia's ?
Aug 18 12:34:44 <vlj> s/emgd/Meego
Aug 18 12:34:48 <Stskeeps> no
Aug 18 12:34:59 <vgrade_> I'm getting a bit miffed with this, you put the hours in, provide wiki material, share things and all you get is can't download that, can't disclose the other
Aug 18 12:35:14 <sivang> vlj: it has GMA4500 so I don't think so
Aug 18 12:35:18 <Stskeeps> vgrade_: nothing the open source part of intel can do anything about..
Aug 18 12:35:24 <sivang> vlj: well, the driver is unrealeased, so no :)
Aug 18 12:35:43 <sid3windr> vgrade_: I did say "yet" - alas nothing I can change at the moment :)
Aug 18 12:35:46 <vlj> sivang: there is a nvidia driver
Aug 18 12:35:52 <sivang> vlj: for MeeGo ?
Aug 18 12:36:01 <sivang> nvidia, as the prop. tainting driver?
Aug 18 12:36:06 <vlj> yup
Aug 18 12:36:09 <Stskeeps> vgrade_: when it comes to SGX, it's usually not the hardware vendor's fault it's closed
Aug 18 12:36:12 <sid3windr> I hope the intel negotiations go ok so we have some better luck with emgd
Aug 18 12:36:13 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 12:36:21 * sivang recalls with a grin the messages from kernel build process that the driver is going to 'taint' the kernel
Aug 18 12:36:37 <vlj> but it seems not to be compatible with meego
Aug 18 12:37:31 <vlj> the moblin interface did not work with nvidia proprietary driver
Aug 18 12:41:40 <vlj> is xorg-server built with the --no-xinerama option ?
Aug 18 12:57:20 <slaine> vlj, that used to be the case
Aug 18 12:57:25 <slaine> not sure now
Aug 18 13:00:34 <vlj> because the --no-xinerama make nvidia driver uninstallable
Aug 18 13:08:44 * thiago installed the MeeGo Netbook 1.0.80 without touching the keyboard or mouse
Aug 18 13:09:28 <Bostik> now that sounds like a clean install procedure
Aug 18 13:09:57 <thiago> ok, reached a point where I need to use the keyboard
Aug 18 13:10:02 <thiago> typing the username and password
Aug 18 13:10:17 <leinir> Step 1: Take ROM chip out. Step 2: Insert new ROM. Step 3: ...profit? ;)
Aug 18 13:10:28 <heibox> Is hostapd or wpad already in the repository, or how will a WiFi access point work?
Aug 18 13:10:56 * thiago was using the touchscreen
Aug 18 13:11:06 <leinir> Aah ;)
Aug 18 13:11:27 * leinir is looking forward to that on the touchbook...
Aug 18 13:11:41 <Stskeeps> then port it
Aug 18 13:11:41 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 13:12:01 <leinir> *giggles* Oh, i'm busy making other nifty things, but i understand people are, in fact, working on it :)
Aug 18 13:12:18 * leinir pokes Aard "...or am i misunderstanding things?" ;)
Aug 18 13:12:26 <leinir> (wouldn't be the first time ;) )
Aug 18 13:13:06 <Aard> ouch.
Aug 18 13:13:26 <leinir> Not that 'ard... *ducks* ;)
Aug 18 13:13:56 <Aard> trying to get the motivation to change the ugly mic-image-creator to directly write squashfs images...
Aug 18 13:14:17 <leinir> *nods* :)
Aug 18 13:15:25 * CosmoHill growls at the Rocks head node for not netbooting it's nodes
Aug 18 13:39:07 <CosmoHill> hey DawnFoster
Aug 18 13:39:17 <DawnFoster> hey cosmohill
Aug 18 13:40:10 <DawnFoster> Quick reminder to everyone that we have a TSG meeting today at 19:00 UTC. Details & agenda here: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
Aug 18 13:43:49 <CosmoHill> thanks
Aug 18 13:44:10 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: says august 11 in the top :)
Aug 18 13:45:17 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: oops - fixed now :)
Aug 18 13:46:05 <Stskeeps> interesting nomination
Aug 18 13:46:41 <Stskeeps> (given that there was a different guy listed in that position before)
Aug 18 13:46:47 <Stskeeps> but i guess that'll be mentioned tonight
Aug 18 14:01:31 <CosmoHill> damn laptop
Aug 18 14:18:30 * CosmoHill stabs
Aug 18 14:18:37 <CosmoHill> damn firewall
Aug 18 14:18:47 <CosmoHill> it's blocking it's own services >.<
Aug 18 14:33:45 <sebs__> hello, is anybody there who would waste some time to guide me through the insallation process of meego on a n900 deviceß
Aug 18 14:34:18 <sebs__> to be more exact: i am not sure which of the 2 files i need to put on the dvice with flasher
Aug 18 14:34:38 <Stskeeps> sebs__: did you read wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC ?
Aug 18 14:35:04 <sebs__> hmm i have no access to a external mmc card
Aug 18 14:35:15 <Stskeeps> you'll need to buy a microsd then
Aug 18 14:35:49 <sebs__> this is the easiest way?
Aug 18 14:35:55 <Stskeeps> and only
Aug 18 14:35:59 <Stskeeps> well, best
Aug 18 14:36:24 <sebs__> ah okay
Aug 18 14:36:43 <sebs__> will it work with a already wasted n900 from previous attempts?
Aug 18 14:39:20 <sebs__> okay, now the mision is to get a SD card reader, this questseries better gets me a lot of XP, an achievement and a lot of GOLD.
Aug 18 14:39:33 <sebs__> besides the epic linux handheld device ;)
Aug 18 14:42:04 * sebs__ goot his stuff
Aug 18 14:43:34 <sebs__> Stskeeps: Can you point me to the two files i will need for the next step? I have multiple files that are presuambly wrong
Aug 18 14:45:13 <Stskeeps> sebs__: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php , meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 and http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php?f=meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35-11.2-n900
Aug 18 14:51:27 <Stskeeps> wb wazd
Aug 18 14:51:36 <wazd> Stskeeps: o/
Aug 18 14:52:20 <sebs__> Thanks Stskeeps
Aug 18 14:54:49 <sebs__> btw: whatfor am I doing ths? My colleague, a editor at a german news website about mobilephones and computers asked me to do this. So he can show of the meego in an article
Aug 18 14:55:47 <Stskeeps> sebs__: ah, well, just be sure to indicate it is a -development image- :P
Aug 18 14:55:54 <Stskeeps> as in, work in progress, we're not even at beta yet
Aug 18 14:57:51 <sebs__> yeah, but a good way to show something off ;) we are not indicating that our users should get the images and install them
Aug 18 14:58:05 <sebs__> but a good way to see for people where stuff goes
Aug 18 14:58:43 <sebs__> brb ... crappy meetings
Aug 18 15:06:44 <tybollt> Stskeeps: will you be doing milestones every now and then or will there be set intervals between each update.
Aug 18 15:07:17 <Stskeeps> tybollt: go check wiki.meego.com/Release_engineering (or Engineering, I forget)
Aug 18 15:07:43 <stinkydog> hello everyone
Aug 18 15:10:39 <stinkydog> I'm using meego on a asus 1001p boot'n live from a 4gig flashdrive (dont 'cha know) I'm wondering why couldn't I boot on a cd/dvd live to install to an empty flash drive and where
Aug 18 15:11:16 <stinkydog> and where it wouldn't install any other boot loader. So when I don't have the flash drive in... i don't get meego.. just regular windows.
Aug 18 15:12:06 <stinkydog>  i tried it with ubuntu and made a mess of things.
Aug 18 15:12:47 <stinkydog> knoppix used to let you boot off the live cd and create a little partition for updating and ... swap file.. i think they called it....
Aug 18 15:17:17 <thiago> meego netbook doesn't ask for a password when booting
Aug 18 15:17:22 <thiago> but does when resuming from suspend
Aug 18 15:33:52 <luist> hey guys... i just installed a meego and did some changes... how can i create a .img from my system? i want to transform the .img into a virtual machine
Aug 18 16:09:04 <sebs__uselessact>  /nick sebs__
Aug 18 16:15:41 <sebs__> Stskeeps: Hmm, do i need to unpack the bz2 file or do i stick it bz2ed on the sd card?
Aug 18 16:16:12 <CosmoHill> is it raw.bz2 ?
Aug 18 16:17:19 <wazd> If anyone interested, I'm working on MeeGo Handset homescreen template for widget design
Aug 18 16:17:22 <wazd> http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1008/28/bb2d660c9ae4.png
Aug 18 16:17:35 <sebs__> CosmiHill: Yes, sir, yes
Aug 18 16:17:53 <CosmoHill> i'd imagine you'd need to decompress it then
Aug 18 16:18:25 <CosmoHill> wazd: looks nice but i can see the grading
Aug 18 16:18:37 <CosmoHill> would that be noticable on the handset?
Aug 18 16:18:56 <sebs__> kk
Aug 18 16:19:14 <wazd> CosmoHill: I'd like to replace the wallpaper anyway :)
Aug 18 16:19:30 <ali1234> this is what happened on my OBS while i was sleeping
Aug 18 16:19:47 <ali1234> mpc compiled successfully, which allowed gcc to compile successfully
Aug 18 16:19:51 <lcuk> wazd, have you gota nice blue one lying around? :)
Aug 18 16:20:27 <lcuk> and what happens to those background when you switch to landscape
Aug 18 16:20:30 <ali1234> after gcc compiled it tried to recompile mpc, but it died in configure saying "configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables"
Aug 18 16:20:59 * sebs__ prays for more disk IO while unpacking 
Aug 18 16:21:01 <wazd> lcuk: well, Marina's only I guess :)
Aug 18 16:21:12 <ali1234> build log: http://pastebin.com/FJEPyQwA
Aug 18 16:21:19 <lcuk> is meego themable
Aug 18 16:22:23 <CosmoHill> ali1234: funny, someone else had that problem with binutils 10 mins ago
Aug 18 16:22:24 <tripzero> lcuk, yes
Aug 18 16:23:02 <tripzero> lcuk, well, i guess one should ask which "meego" you are referring to....
Aug 18 16:23:10 <lcuk> tripzero, do you want to send over a red cross theming pack (or link to details) to wazd then :P
Aug 18 16:23:12 <ali1234> CosmoHill: really? because i just read the backlog from when i went to sleep last night, and i didn't see it
Aug 18 16:23:39 <ali1234> i suspect that the new built gcc has some hardcoded ssse3 instructions in it so it doesn't work
Aug 18 16:23:50 <CosmoHill> ali1234: this person was builing LFS and didn't check his envrioment first
Aug 18 16:24:10 <ali1234> hardcoded as in they still show up even if you don't ask for them in cflags
Aug 18 16:24:14 <CosmoHill> hmm
Aug 18 16:24:31 <CosmoHill> gmp tends to self optimise and thus brake things
Aug 18 16:24:44 <ali1234> i am not compiling gmp
Aug 18 16:24:55 <CosmoHill> gmp -> mpfr -> gcc
Aug 18 16:25:04 <ali1234> yeah i'm not compiling either of those things
Aug 18 16:25:20 <ali1234> i am using the ones from fedora 13
Aug 18 16:25:21 <CosmoHill> mpc too
Aug 18 16:25:51 <tripzero> wazd: not sure if the system-ui bar is themeable
Aug 18 16:26:20 <tripzero> just about everything else is though...
Aug 18 16:26:31 <Phazorx> hrm... can anyone please suggest a reason why connman fails to connect after reboot (and forgets WPA2 credentials)?
Aug 18 16:26:34 <wazd> tripzero: well, I've just remade leaked nokia ui footage in high res
Aug 18 16:26:51 <tripzero> oh
Aug 18 16:26:52 * CosmoHill goes to check a theory
Aug 18 16:26:53 <tripzero> hmm
Aug 18 16:27:15 <tripzero> Phazorx, try #connman?
Aug 18 16:30:51 <wazd> lcuk: http://s002.radikal.ru/i199/1008/e3/b1d5a2ce4100.png
Aug 18 16:31:31 <tripzero> ooo
Aug 18 16:31:32 <tripzero> pretty
Aug 18 16:31:41 <sebs__> okay, i need to get me a 2 gig microsd card ;)
Aug 18 16:31:46 <sebs__> mine is 1 gig ;)
Aug 18 16:31:46 <lcuk> thats pretty wazd :)
Aug 18 16:31:55 <Phazorx> tripzero: thanks, asking there
Aug 18 16:31:57 <tripzero> sebs__, got 16 gigs class 10
Aug 18 16:32:06 <sebs__> price?
Aug 18 16:32:06 <Phazorx> i was assuming it is configuration/meego issue though
Aug 18 16:32:07 <tripzero> Phazorx, np :)
Aug 18 16:32:14 <ali1234> ok i located the problem: http://pastebin.com/Lm8r6atd
Aug 18 16:32:31 <sebs__> ill go shopping now
Aug 18 16:32:35 <ali1234> gcc doesn't work because no libmpc was installed in the buildroot - but it is trying to compile libmpc
Aug 18 16:32:40 <tripzero> Phazorx, that is possible.  but those guys are very familiar with meego and will be able to help better (at least hopefully)
Aug 18 16:32:41 <Phazorx> and looking at ali1234's paste - how do i get autoconf to work ?
Aug 18 16:32:52 <leinir> wazd: i'm with lcuk on that :) Nicely smooth there :)
Aug 18 16:32:58 <ali1234> Phazorx: you really want to know?
Aug 18 16:33:22 <ali1234> it involves installing OBS in a server...
Aug 18 16:33:43 <Phazorx> ali1234: is there a simpier way
Aug 18 16:33:48 <Phazorx> i want to be able to compile things
Aug 18 16:33:58 <Phazorx> and there is no auromake/autoconf in meego's repo
Aug 18 16:34:01 <ali1234> there might be, i don't know
Aug 18 16:34:20 <ali1234> i can't use anything from the repos except source on my computer
Aug 18 16:34:30 <Phazorx> not good
Aug 18 16:34:53 <Phazorx> one of reasons i choose meego is so my wife can maintain the netbook w/o much hassle
Aug 18 16:35:08 <Phazorx> if i have to ocmpile from source - might as well went with gentoo, since i am farm more familiar with it
Aug 18 16:35:10 <CosmoHill> ali1234: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuf61OjvoPQ&NR=1 this will make you smile :)
Aug 18 16:46:45 <ali1234> lbt: can you advise on how i should break the circular dependency between mpc and gcc?
Aug 18 16:47:12 * CosmoHill goes to watch a movie
Aug 18 17:18:32 <andyross> Hardware compatibility question: anyone have experience with the "HD" variant (with the 1366x768 screen) of the Dell Mini 10?  I'm looking at this for personal use, but don't know the video hardware.  Dell lists "Crystal HD" in that slot, which isn't right (it's a codec accelerator, not the GPU)
Aug 18 17:18:59 <andyross> Ideally it'd do double-duty as a MeeGo box for work, thus the question.
Aug 18 17:20:30 <girishr> anyone know about where Q_WS_MAEMO_6 gets defined?
Aug 18 17:23:53 <tripzero> girishr, ask in #qt
Aug 18 17:23:57 <tripzero> cuz I'm not sure
Aug 18 17:24:02 <tripzero> or maybe thiago knows
Aug 18 17:24:55 <girishr> k, let me check. i think it's probably some unreleased code
Aug 18 17:29:33 <lcuk> girishr, afaik its defined inside qtmobility project files when used in the maemo6 branches and enables or disables specific generic behaviour
Aug 18 17:31:50 <lcuk> from a marginally outdated symbian dev doc:
Aug 18 17:31:51 <lcuk> • Q_OS_SYMBIAN macro for Symbian
Aug 18 17:31:52 <lcuk> • Q_WS_WIN or Q_WS_WIN32 macrof for Windows OS
Aug 18 17:31:52 <lcuk> • Q_WS_MAEMO_5 for Mameo OS 5
Aug 18 17:31:52 <lcuk> • Q_WS_MAEMO_6 for coming Maemo OS 6
Aug 18 17:31:52 <lcuk> • Q_WS_S60
Aug 18 17:32:28 <lcuk> (google is great for constants and you can see many places around qt code which use this define but few that google sees which declare it
Aug 18 17:33:46 <ScottishDuck> Is it beta announce tomorrow?
Aug 18 17:34:24 <girishr> lcuk: i see that qt-mobility defines that Q_WS_MAEMO_6.
Aug 18 17:34:46 <ScottishDuck> lol maemo 6
Aug 18 17:34:54 <lcuk> girishr, thats what i just told you
Aug 18 17:35:12 <girishr> lcuk: yeah, i did found out from you :)
Aug 18 17:35:31 <girishr> lcuk: that doesn't seem like the right place to add it, does it
Aug 18 17:37:20 <lcuk> girishr, :) its there because htey must have needed it there
Aug 18 17:37:37 <lcuk> when you encounter a problem and the definition scope needs expanding, then discuss with the wider teams?
Aug 18 17:39:03 * lcuk goes back to deeper qtmobility inspection
Aug 18 17:40:20 <sebs__> hello again
Aug 18 17:40:49 <lcuk> girishr, which commit/url/file did you find specific declaration on
Aug 18 17:42:54 <girishr> lcuk: well, i am actually trying to find out what is the correct define to use for meego in Qt/WebKit. The answer is Q_WS_MAEMO_6. but i was just trying to find out how it gets defined
Aug 18 17:43:06 * sebs__ okay, trying again with a 4gb microsdcard
Aug 18 17:48:43 <lbt> tsg in an hour+10
Aug 18 17:49:00 * Stskeeps ponders coffee to stay awake
Aug 18 17:49:34 * lbt goes to eat chip butties
Aug 18 17:49:43 <tripzero> lbt!!
Aug 18 17:49:47 <lbt> sweet potato chip butties .... mmmm
Aug 18 17:49:56 * sebs__ hpoes Stskeeps stays awake because sebs__ wasted his n900 totally 
Aug 18 17:50:25 <sebs__> the guy at the shop really gave me a strange look when i asked him to reset the n900 to outofthebox state
Aug 18 17:50:42 <CosmoHill> lol
Aug 18 17:50:49 <sebs__> yeah
Aug 18 17:50:53 <ali1234> sebs__: it can't be done without a computer to reflash
Aug 18 17:51:10 <sebs__> i have a computer and i am not afraid to use it
Aug 18 17:51:11 <sebs__> ;)
Aug 18 17:51:19 <ali1234> i doubt the guy in the shop would though
Aug 18 17:52:01 <sebs__> hey nokia was the company holding a presscon and posing around with their new shiny os thingie
Aug 18 17:52:15 <ali1234> it was a nokia shop?
Aug 18 17:52:18 <sebs__> no
Aug 18 17:52:23 <CosmoHill> i went to vodafone to get my mobile internet settings
Aug 18 17:52:42 <CosmoHill> they basically told me they never sold the phone so I'd have to figure it out
Aug 18 17:53:00 <sebs__> lucky me, its 2.1 gigs and i went for the 4 gig card
Aug 18 17:53:03 <sebs__> ;)
Aug 18 17:53:04 <ali1234> should have gone on t-mobile
Aug 18 17:53:13 <sebs__> they will tell you the same
Aug 18 17:53:17 <ali1234> they send the internet setting on sms for free if you put your sim card in a new phone
Aug 18 17:53:49 <sebs__> if NOCLUE == true -> answer(yourfault)
Aug 18 17:53:55 <CosmoHill> sony are nice, they send you an sms with the settings
Aug 18 17:53:56 <sebs__> in this case it is my fault ;)
Aug 18 17:56:20 <sebs__>  btw: flasher-3.5 .deb packages only in 32bit ?
Aug 18 17:56:37 <sebs__> orlly? ;) anyone already buildt 64bit ones?
Aug 18 17:56:46 <ali1234> what would be the point?
Aug 18 17:57:06 <CosmoHill> cos he can
Aug 18 17:58:16 <ali1234> vgrade: why does your prjconf refer to rpm-build when it isn't in any meego repository?
Aug 18 17:59:22 <ali1234> Required: binutils gcc glibc rpm-build libtool
Aug 18 17:59:43 <ali1234> if i compile against fedora then it supplies rpm-build
Aug 18 17:59:52 <ali1234> but opensuse doesn't have it
Aug 18 18:00:07 <sebs__> ali1234: my 64bit debian package manager does not like 32 bit packages
Aug 18 18:00:11 <ali1234> it looks to me like meego uses build instead of rpm-build anyway
Aug 18 18:00:44 <ali1234> sebs__: dpkg --force-architecture
Aug 18 18:00:59 <ali1234> or just unpack it
Aug 18 18:01:08 <ali1234> ar -x foo.deb
Aug 18 18:01:09 <sebs__> ah ok
Aug 18 18:01:14 <sebs__> ty
Aug 18 18:01:18 <ali1234> the flasher should be static compiled
Aug 18 18:01:29 <ali1234> so it will work fine even you don't have 32bit libs
Aug 18 18:04:07 <sebs__> hmmm
Aug 18 18:05:30 <sebs__> the device dies with a kernel panic
Aug 18 18:05:37 <sebs__> let get back to rtfm ;)
Aug 18 18:08:58 <sebs__> hmm
Aug 18 18:09:15 <Stskeeps> put your back cover on
Aug 18 18:09:16 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 18:09:25 <sebs__> wooot?
Aug 18 18:10:28 <sebs__> may my i used the -f instead of the -l param to flasher
Aug 18 18:10:57 <sebs__> unable to mount root fs is the error
Aug 18 18:11:11 <vgrade> ali1234, the prjconf I'm using was copied from the Meego-:1.0:Core on the maemo OBS, and edited to remove atom and ssse3 flags
Aug 18 18:11:17 <sebs__> unknown-block(179,1)
Aug 18 18:12:06 <ali1234> vgrade:  so where does it get rpm-build from?
Aug 18 18:12:13 <vgrade> ali1234, this is based on the prjconf on git
Aug 18 18:12:37 <ali1234> why is that prjconf using rpm-build?
Aug 18 18:13:04 <vgrade> let me fire up the VM
Aug 18 18:13:43 <sebs__> the n900 is dead
Aug 18 18:13:45 <sebs__> lol
Aug 18 18:13:56 <sebs__> sebs__ 1: n900 0
Aug 18 18:15:11 <sebs__> this worries me
Aug 18 18:15:26 <vgrade> I have line in the gcc build log
Aug 18 18:15:47 <sebs__> pew
Aug 18 18:16:03 <Stskeeps> sebs__: dead how?
Aug 18 18:16:10 <Stskeeps> sebs__: no, use -l
Aug 18 18:16:19 <ali1234> which package in meego provide rpm-build?
Aug 18 18:17:11 <sebs__> Stskeeps: didnt power on but still accepts kernels via the battery in and out thingie in the docs
Aug 18 18:17:19 <sebs__> but: l does not work too
Aug 18 18:17:42 <vgrade> ali1234, installing rpm-build-4.8.0-4.2
Aug 18 18:18:03 <Stskeeps> sebs__: basically once you've -f'ed, you need to flash back the old maemo kernel..
Aug 18 18:18:29 <sebs__> so i need the old kernel to make the new one work?
Aug 18 18:18:38 <ali1234> vgrade: which source package provides it?
Aug 18 18:18:47 <sebs__> i guess i fucked up by -f ing a lot of kernels which did not work?
Aug 18 18:19:03 <Stskeeps> sebs__: grab a fiasco image from tablets-dev.nokia.com and reflash
Aug 18 18:19:42 <sebs__> fiasco image, oh how that fits ;)
Aug 18 18:19:48 <sebs__> Stskeeps: Thank you ;)
Aug 18 18:23:39 <vgrade> ali1234, I guess this one, http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/core/repos/source/rpm-4.8.0-4.1.src.rpm
Aug 18 18:23:47 <ali1234> nope
Aug 18 18:23:54 <sebs__> member:Stskeeps: There is a note on this page telling me to flash the FIASCO one before flashing the ones listed, bit no release named fiasco
Aug 18 18:23:57 <ali1234> guess again :)
Aug 18 18:24:18 <Stskeeps> sebs__: take the one without MMC in it
Aug 18 18:24:19 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 18:25:09 <sebs__> Stskeeps: sorry i am extradumb 2day, but i looked up 0size replys on a webserver all day long
Aug 18 18:25:26 <Stskeeps> sebs__: ah, i'm a bit ill so we're even
Aug 18 18:25:41 <auke>  
Aug 18 18:25:50 <auke> ^ zero sized reply :)
Aug 18 18:26:24 <vgrade> ali, binary is here, http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/core/repos/ia32/packages/i586/rpm-build-4.8.0-4.2.i586.rpm
Aug 18 18:26:37 <vgrade> but don't see the source atm
Aug 18 18:29:22 <vgrade> can't see the source
Aug 18 18:29:41 <ali1234> it does come from rpm
Aug 18 18:30:00 <ali1234> OBS just can't figure it out because rpm is "unresolvable" due to another problem
Aug 18 18:30:28 <auke> .
Aug 18 18:30:36 <ali1234> rpm-libs rpm-build rpm-devel all come from rpm source rpm
Aug 18 18:33:08 <DawnFoster> TSG starts in 30 minutes for those planning to attend. Agenda / details: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
Aug 18 18:33:29 <CosmoHill> ali1234: you know you can have one spec file make multiple RPMs right?
Aug 18 18:33:33 <CosmoHill> DawnFoster: thanks
Aug 18 18:33:34 <ali1234> yes
Aug 18 18:33:44 <ali1234> CosmoHill: i just didn't understand the rules for how they get named
Aug 18 18:34:03 <CosmoHill> yeah i never worked that out either
Aug 18 18:34:07 <CosmoHill> so i never split them
Aug 18 18:34:08 <ali1234> therefore, rpm.spec does not contain the word "rpm-build"
Aug 18 18:34:22 <ali1234> it says "%package build" instead
Aug 18 18:34:37 <ali1234> which i had mistook for a generic build directive
Aug 18 18:34:37 <CosmoHill> that makes sense
Aug 18 18:34:45 <ali1234> it doesn't make much sense to me
Aug 18 18:34:52 <ali1234> but i am used to .deb
Aug 18 18:36:24 <ali1234> i'm still no better off though
Aug 18 18:36:40 <ali1234> gcc links against libmpc but no projconf will install libmpc into the build root
Aug 18 18:36:53 <ali1234> so nothing will ever compile because gcc is missing libraries
Aug 18 18:36:56 <Stskeeps> you probably need to start doing some prjconf magic
Aug 18 18:37:06 <Stskeeps> sec
Aug 18 18:37:15 <ali1234> Stskeeps: i don't even understand how it can work for anyone else
Aug 18 18:37:35 <Stskeeps> ali1234: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_prjconf
Aug 18 18:37:44 <ali1234> i need to put a line like "Require: mpc" into my prjconf
Aug 18 18:37:54 <Stskeeps> you probably need Keep: and such
Aug 18 18:37:57 <ali1234> but i do not understand why nobody else had to do this
Aug 18 18:38:10 <Stskeeps> ali1234: because you're doing something alternative
Aug 18 18:38:21 <Stskeeps> trying to rebuild meego for x86 from scratch
Aug 18 18:38:25 <ali1234> the gcc requirement on mpc is in the spec file
Aug 18 18:38:35 <ali1234> nobody can compile meego gcc with mpc
Aug 18 18:39:01 <ali1234> *without
Aug 18 18:39:21 <CosmoHill> ali1234: iirc gcc requires mpc from 4.5.x
Aug 18 18:39:38 <CosmoHill> not to sure tho as I've not done a dev build of lfs
Aug 18 18:39:54 <vgrade> I suppose thats why I can build gcc using Meego:1.0:Core
Aug 18 18:40:12 <ali1234> so mpc problem is just a problem for the latest gcc which nobody is using outside the meego OBS
Aug 18 18:40:20 <ali1234> and the problem has been fixed inside the meego OBS
Aug 18 18:40:26 <ali1234> but nobody can see the solution because it is private
Aug 18 18:40:31 <ali1234> ?
Aug 18 18:41:19 <sebs__> uh looks like the slasher-3.5 + FIASCO is doing way more output then the meego image
Aug 18 18:42:33 <sebs__> Flashing cmt-mcusw... Sending request 0x50 failed: Operation timed out
Aug 18 18:42:42 <sebs__> and leaving me with a error message
Aug 18 18:42:56 <sebs__> RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Aug 18 18:42:59 <sebs__> this image
Aug 18 18:43:50 <vgrade> ali1234, I will try a gcc build against Meego:current
Aug 18 18:43:55 <Stskeeps> sebs__: that's usually not a good sign - you may need to upgrade on a stepping stone basis then
Aug 18 18:44:03 <ali1234> meego 1.0: gcc-4.4.2-12.8.src.rpm
Aug 18 18:44:06 <Stskeeps> sebs__: i have to go - go look at maemo.org for tutorials
Aug 18 18:44:14 <sebs__> kk
Aug 18 18:44:21 <ali1234> meego 1.0.1: gcc-4.4.2-12.8.src.rpm
Aug 18 18:44:22 <vgrade> ali1234 make take sometime as I need to populate my cache
Aug 18 18:44:52 <ali1234> trunk: gcc-4.5.0-6.3.src.rpm
Aug 18 18:44:59 <ali1234> so yeah, this could just be a 4.5 problem
Aug 18 18:45:11 <ali1234> i will go back to 1.0.1 i think, no i fixed the patch apllication thing
Aug 18 18:45:36 <CosmoHill> does meego have traceroute?
Aug 18 18:46:37 <auke> tracepath
Aug 18 18:46:46 <CosmoHill> okay cool
Aug 18 18:46:59 <CosmoHill> i was gonna say, I have a patch for traceroute for make 3.82
Aug 18 18:52:30 <sebs__> okay, looks like i got a devive w.o. a initfs
Aug 18 18:53:11 <Stskeeps> yes, n900 doesn't have one
Aug 18 18:53:11 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 18:56:18 <vgrade> ali1234, http://meego.gitorious.org/~stskeeps/meego-developer-tools/stskeepss-obs-project-config
Aug 18 18:56:46 <Stskeeps> vgrade: think he can't be using a full prjconf yet
Aug 18 18:57:02 <Stskeeps> vgrade: as he's taking the approach of rebasing initially on top of fedora 12
Aug 18 18:57:02 <ali1234> i've tried with and without
Aug 18 18:57:33 <ali1234> either way does nto solve the issues i have
Aug 18 18:57:52 <Stskeeps> ali1234: even though you have non-ssse3 device, i'd consider simply importing the binaries of meego, then sources into packages with a changed prjconf..
Aug 18 18:58:12 <ali1234> i don't know how to import binaries into OBS
Aug 18 18:58:15 * CosmoHill joins #meego-meeting
Aug 18 18:58:27 <ali1234> so i can only use the ones that i get from linking to build.opensuse.org
Aug 18 18:59:45 <ali1234> (which annoyingly means my OBS dies whenever the remote one goes down)
Aug 18 19:00:01 <ali1234> that's something else i don't know how to fix
Aug 18 19:02:24 <Stskeeps> ali1234: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_adding_build_targets
Aug 18 19:02:41 <DawnFoster> TSG has started in meego-meeting (fyi)
Aug 18 19:03:39 <ali1234> Stskeeps: thanks, i will try it
Aug 18 19:06:03 <lcuk> hehe maclaver :D happy to see you getting involved in the #maemotop5 listing on twitter
Aug 18 19:10:31 <lbt> not the "same core software stack" if the patches aren't upstream?
Aug 18 19:12:54 <lcuk> sigh
Aug 18 19:12:58 <lcuk> no add on level packs
Aug 18 19:13:02 <lcuk> no plugins for apps
Aug 18 19:13:06 <lcuk> no new libraries
Aug 18 19:13:21 <lcuk> errr no apps using new libraries
Aug 18 19:13:36 <GAN900> Hello, Android?
Aug 18 19:14:05 <lcuk> GAN900, ? android is just as anal?
Aug 18 19:14:06 <Stskeeps> go read the whole meeting log first
Aug 18 19:14:07 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 19:14:25 <GAN900> Stskeeps, to what end?
Aug 18 19:14:31 <DawnFoster> lcuk: that's not true
Aug 18 19:14:39 <DawnFoster> mark will clarify in meego-meeting
Aug 18 19:15:01 <lcuk> DawnFoster, cannot upload a package which depends on something not in core:  plugins for an app would depend on the app existing
Aug 18 19:15:07 <lcuk> game addons same situation etc
Aug 18 19:15:10 <Stskeeps> GAN900: in terms of that i think this compliance approach is sane
Aug 18 19:15:54 <DawnFoster> compliance for a shipping meego distribution is different from installing applications on MeeGo - let's let mark calrify
Aug 18 19:16:19 <lbt> it's good - it's source based compliance
Aug 18 19:16:22 <DawnFoster> lcuk: can you post a follow-up question after he finishes answering this one
Aug 18 19:16:25 <lcuk> if user cannot install new game level packs from app store...
Aug 18 19:16:39 <lbt> I'm a bit dubious that you can be compliant with a "patched" version of meego...
Aug 18 19:16:58 <Stskeeps> lbt: well, it should be possible to provide ABI/API matching
Aug 18 19:17:11 <Stskeeps> lbt: Compliance requires the use of the MeeGo source packages for required components, and that any applied patches (e.g. to fix bugs found in the field) must not effect API, ABI, or defined functionality of interfaces.
Aug 18 19:17:15 <Stskeeps> (from text0
Aug 18 19:17:18 <Stskeeps> which is pretty sane
Aug 18 19:17:49 <GAN900> lbt, we wouldn't want to keep carriers from getting every cent they can get out of their customers, would we?
Aug 18 19:18:08 <lbt> god no... they need to be able to pay me !
Aug 18 19:18:30 <Stskeeps> i think a after-discussion on compliance on mailing list should be good
Aug 18 19:18:35 <CosmoHill> I wonder why I go to meetings, I just become confused >.<
Aug 18 19:19:13 <GAN900> CosmoHill, you go to hear about holding discussions on the lists.
Aug 18 19:19:23 <lbt> lcuk: MeeGo Device compliance != Application compliant with MeeGo ?
Aug 18 19:19:53 <CosmoHill> lbt: like windows 7 will run on this computer but your fav game won't run on windows 7
Aug 18 19:19:54 <CosmoHill> ?
Aug 18 19:20:20 <lbt> no... a meego device comes with meego installed
Aug 18 19:20:32 <lbt> and a meego app will run on it
Aug 18 19:20:48 <lbt> (well, if they build it for your device, it will build+run_
Aug 18 19:20:50 <lbt> )
Aug 18 19:21:01 <ali1234> i missed start of meeting, is there a log? i missed what they said that set everyone off :)
Aug 18 19:21:02 <lbt> eg a ppc meego device
Aug 18 19:21:40 <CosmoHill> ali1234: they said you where a poopoo head for not being at the start
Aug 18 19:21:45 <Stskeeps> ali1234: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-08-18-18.58.log.txt
Aug 18 19:21:50 <ali1234> CosmoHill: :(
Aug 18 19:22:10 <CosmoHill> http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-08-18-18.58.log.txt
Aug 18 19:22:15 <CosmoHill> oh damn you Stskeeps
Aug 18 19:23:12 <Stskeeps> the elephant in the room is the harmattan approach still though, which is clearly not rpm..
Aug 18 19:23:33 <sebs__> grml ... completely switching to my linux
Aug 18 19:23:41 <sebs__> screw osx
Aug 18 19:23:48 <CosmoHill> sup?
Aug 18 19:23:58 <thiago_home> for marketing people, harmattan is MeeGo
Aug 18 19:24:03 <thiago_home> on the technical side, it isn't
Aug 18 19:24:17 <Stskeeps> thiago_home: yeah, but compliance doesn't mention how to deal with it :P
Aug 18 19:24:52 <vgrade> lbt :)
Aug 18 19:24:53 <lbt> is that right?
Aug 18 19:25:21 <GAN900> thiago_home, no, no it's not.
Aug 18 19:25:46 <GAN900> thiago_home, what I keep hearing from marketing people is that it's not finalized yet, but wont be called MeeGo.
Aug 18 19:25:58 <thiago_home> I can't speak for the Marketing people
Aug 18 19:26:23 <lbt> thiago_home: ?
Aug 18 19:26:31 <GAN900> I can tell you what I hear from the top marketing people, and that's that they're not calling Harmattan MeeGo.
Aug 18 19:26:40 <VDVsx> GAN900, so will be called what ? meeko,meeto,... :D
Aug 18 19:26:43 <lbt> an ssse3 app won't run on an AMD running MeeGo 1.1
Aug 18 19:26:44 <Stskeeps> neego
Aug 18 19:26:55 <GAN900> VDVsx, dunno that.
Aug 18 19:26:57 <thiago_home> lbt: no, but that's different
Aug 18 19:26:59 <frals> meegattan!
Aug 18 19:27:04 <VDVsx> ahhaha
Aug 18 19:27:07 <thiago_home> lbt: you can't run an SSSE3 app on a device without SSSE3
Aug 18 19:27:08 <lbt> thiago_home: that was my question
Aug 18 19:27:09 <Stskeeps> megatan ;)
Aug 18 19:27:18 <thiago_home> lbt: the same way that you can't run an ARM app on x86
Aug 18 19:27:22 <GAN900> YoureScrewedIfYouBuyThisToo
Aug 18 19:27:23 <thiago_home> you must match the processor
Aug 18 19:27:27 <lbt> the label needs to say MeeGo 1.1 (Atom)
Aug 18 19:27:35 <frals> from now on i shall refer to harmattan as meegattan
Aug 18 19:27:36 <arjan> same is true for armv7 vs armv5
Aug 18 19:27:40 <arjan> v7 has more instructions
Aug 18 19:27:44 <VDVsx> frals, +1
Aug 18 19:27:47 <frals> GAN900: whats the top marketing people saying about that?
Aug 18 19:27:47 <lbt> yes... that's what I said
Aug 18 19:27:51 <arjan> v7 apps don't run on a v5 cpu
Aug 18 19:27:54 <arjan> likewise with neon
Aug 18 19:27:57 <CosmoHill> what happened to v6?
Aug 18 19:27:59 <thiago_home> now, if you have an SSSE3-capable device running generic x86 MeeGo, you can install SSSE3-apps
Aug 18 19:27:59 <arjan> with/without is a hueg delta
Aug 18 19:28:05 <arjan> v6 is also used but by fewer people
Aug 18 19:28:17 <thiago_home> is the v5 build using hardfp?
Aug 18 19:28:57 <andyross> The ARM11 core is ARMv6 and is/was reasonably popular.  But no one targets the architecture.
Aug 18 19:29:00 <thiago_home> the FP ABI is, well, ABI-changing option
Aug 18 19:29:27 * thiago_home needs to add the ARMv7 memory-ordering instructions to the Qt atomics
Aug 18 19:31:20 <CosmoHill> is there an IRC client for a Nokia 6220c?
Aug 18 19:31:31 <ali1234> remember on maemo, how if app X depends on library Y, people who installed app X don't get updates to library Y? mandating no external deps would solve that problem... albeit in the worst way possible: by forcing the developer of app X to static link library Y into his package...
Aug 18 19:32:13 <thiago_home> ali1234: depends if you're using repos or an app store
Aug 18 19:32:32 <thiago_home> app stores often don't have repos: you download just the .rpm
Aug 18 19:32:45 <ali1234> oh, so we're still going to have to deal with that issue anyway?
Aug 18 19:32:47 <thiago_home> that's why the compliance is important
Aug 18 19:33:02 <thiago_home> but for repos, everything should be handled the Linux way
Aug 18 19:33:06 * sebs__ hits the keyboard on the n900 
Aug 18 19:33:12 <ali1234> the linux way or the maemo way?
Aug 18 19:33:20 * sebs__ considers a hour quakelive
Aug 18 19:34:09 <thiago_home> maemo repos are the linux way
Aug 18 19:34:16 <thiago_home> the Ovi Store isn't
Aug 18 19:34:40 <ali1234> maemo repos are not the linux way, sorry
Aug 18 19:34:47 <ali1234> for the reason i explained above ^
Aug 18 19:34:56 <thiago_home> APT works just fine
Aug 18 19:35:03 <Stskeeps> suse meego.. is it meego based and hence compliant?
Aug 18 19:35:13 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: that's the question I have waiting to ask
Aug 18 19:35:18 <ali1234> apt works fine, the maemo update utility does not
Aug 18 19:35:26 <lbt> who tests it?
Aug 18 19:35:26 <Stskeeps> because otherwise it waters out the compliance program horribly :)
Aug 18 19:35:28 <thiago_home> ali1234: you mean the Application Manager?
Aug 18 19:35:41 <ali1234> thiago_home: yes
Aug 18 19:35:53 <thiago_home> ali1234: that's a front-end for APT
Aug 18 19:36:04 <ali1234> thiago_home: a broken one, yes
Aug 18 19:36:20 <thiago_home> so it can trigger the installation of something without its dependencies?
Aug 18 19:36:26 <ali1234> thiago_home: broken because maemo repo policy is broken by design
Aug 18 19:36:43 <ali1234> thiago_home: do i really have to explain the problem again?
Aug 18 19:36:50 <Stskeeps> 'Do not refer to a product or service as being certified under any of the Foundation’s marks unless your company has successfully undergone the requisite compliance testing suites and has explicit authorization to use such terms by the Foundation.'
Aug 18 19:37:37 <thiago_home> ali1234: repo policy is different
Aug 18 19:37:49 <thiago_home> ali1234: but it works the way that APT is supposed to work
Aug 18 19:38:50 <ali1234> by "it" do you mean maemo or meego?
Aug 18 19:38:55 <thiago_home> maemo
Aug 18 19:39:12 <thiago_home> unless that App Manager manages to do something that the command-line utility can't do, it's the linux way
Aug 18 19:39:16 <ali1234> so apt is supposed to not offer updates to any packages except those that were explicitly selected?
Aug 18 19:39:27 <thiago_home> the only difference is that there's a "meta-package" that depends on specific versions of some packages
Aug 18 19:39:35 <lbt> seems safest to say "compliance not finalised ... please wait"
Aug 18 19:39:38 <thiago_home> you can't upgrade one without uninstalling this meta package
Aug 18 19:39:49 <ali1234> if i do apt-get upgrade on maemo, it has a different result to running "update" through the app manager
Aug 18 19:39:56 <thiago_home> or triggering an upgrade of the metapackage and all that it depends on
Aug 18 19:39:59 <Stskeeps> lbt: or 'compliance is for meego 1.0'
Aug 18 19:40:19 <ali1234> thiago_home: i'm talking *only* about packages outside the maemo core
Aug 18 19:40:36 <lbt> yes, ... or "in principle, pending compliance verification when finalised"
Aug 18 19:40:54 <thiago_home> ok, for those it should work fine
Aug 18 19:41:08 <thiago_home> installing dependencies as needed
Aug 18 19:41:13 <ali1234> thiago_home: for example say i package libogre for maemo, and then 10 people port different games to maemo, then i find a security bug in libogre so i release an update for it. none of the people who downloaded the games that use it will get my fixed package
Aug 18 19:41:31 <lbt> CosmoHill: I'm so glad you think that :)
Aug 18 19:41:34 <ali1234> unless they go in console and run "apt-get upgrade"
Aug 18 19:41:41 <CosmoHill> yay
Aug 18 19:41:44 <ali1234> then they will get the updates
Aug 18 19:42:06 <ali1234> the only way to force the app manager to show the updates is by bumping the version on all 10 of the games that use it
Aug 18 19:42:13 <Stskeeps> i personally feel TSG isn't being handed enough info on the issue - is SuSE MeeGo based on MeeGo core+netbook at all? :P
Aug 18 19:42:31 <lbt> CosmoHill: out of interest what experience have you had with international trademark law?
Aug 18 19:42:53 <CosmoHill> /o\ that much
Aug 18 19:43:01 <lbt> uh huh ;)
Aug 18 19:43:38 <lcuk> lol
Aug 18 19:43:52 <CosmoHill> there's still more to fine out
Aug 18 19:43:52 <lcuk> hey, he asked a valid question though and sounded all grown up :D
Aug 18 19:44:23 <CosmoHill> i wonder if it would cause compliant issues
Aug 18 19:44:39 <CosmoHill> IE a program works on SuSe MeeGo but not Meego
Aug 18 19:45:11 <lbt> they shouldn't be asking for approval for a specific case IMHO. They should ask how to assess approval for a pending request.
Aug 18 19:45:33 <lcuk> ++
Aug 18 19:45:52 <CosmoHill> I think I'm gonna start calling it Smeego
Aug 18 19:46:08 <lbt> valhalla answered. No. Not until it's understandable. Which isn't going to happen over irc.
Aug 18 19:46:12 <lcuk> i actually saw some of the Meego tv show the other day
Aug 18 19:46:21 <lcuk> my brain melted a little
Aug 18 19:46:29 <Stskeeps> lbt: i would not have minded one wiki page about the issue
Aug 18 19:48:21 <Stskeeps> excellent, the TSG works
Aug 18 19:49:35 <CosmoHill> if it's urgent and meego has been out for 2 months, shouldn't they of made it sooner?
Aug 18 19:50:06 <Stskeeps> CosmoHill: another good point..
Aug 18 19:50:20 <thiago_home> "oh, crap, we need to ask for permission again?"
Aug 18 19:51:39 <CosmoHill> Meego is a new (legal) entity created to replace Moblin. so if you have a Moblin based product it would make sense to find out where you start with the Moblin replacement
Aug 18 19:52:11 <thiago_home> yeah, but that assumes that someone remembered to ask
Aug 18 19:52:17 <thiago_home> things fall through the cracks
Aug 18 19:52:41 <lcuk> ok, can someone please check if CosmoHill has been hacked :D he is making the most sensible postings I think I have heard anyone make around here :P
Aug 18 19:52:41 <thiago_home> they might have been told also "please wait, we'll have a compliance suite in a couple of weeks" for months
Aug 18 19:52:44 <CosmoHill> SuSe Moblin for April, SuSe Moblin for October...oh crap
Aug 18 19:53:25 <CosmoHill> lcuk: :D
Aug 18 19:55:05 <CosmoHill> lbt: behold the power of the cookie, she's already here :)
Aug 18 19:55:09 <mneptok> Smeego neeeedssss the precioussssssss. Gooooood Smeego.
Aug 18 19:55:33 <CosmoHill> excerlent, it's already catching on
Aug 18 19:55:54 * mneptok bites off CosmoHill's ring finger.
Aug 18 19:56:07 <CosmoHill> ha! I'm single!
Aug 18 19:56:14 <CosmoHill> wait...dammit! I'm single :(
Aug 18 19:57:49 <Chicktopus> Kurosmiornica kurwa!
Aug 18 19:58:16 <lcuk> :D and CosmoHill returns!
Aug 18 19:58:17 <CosmoHill> I concur
Aug 18 20:00:34 <jeremiah> So the IVI release does not support ARM yet.
Aug 18 20:00:44 <lbt> mlfoster: congrats on the release :)
Aug 18 20:00:54 <jeremiah> Do we have an official idea of when the official MeeGo IVI will support ARM?
Aug 18 20:01:18 * jeremiah wearing his GENIVI hat.
Aug 18 20:01:24 <Stskeeps> http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5310 is a bug related to this issue
Aug 18 20:01:37 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: Yeah, that was mentioned in one of our meetings.
Aug 18 20:02:18 <lbt> mlfoster, jeremiah.... IVI seems kinda shy and retiring .... where are your meetings?
Aug 18 20:02:43 <mlfoster> lbt: well, we don't have any public meetings at the moment
Aug 18 20:02:46 <jeremiah> They are coming
Aug 18 20:02:46 <GAN900> jeremiah, you're clearly not an OEM, so why do you care if it supports ARM? :P
Aug 18 20:03:10 <jeremiah> Umm, maybe because that is all that automotive software runs on?
Aug 18 20:03:27 <GAN900> jeremiah, clearly they'll be using Atoms.
Aug 18 20:03:33 <jeremiah> Clearly. :)
Aug 18 20:03:42 <GAN900> I mean, there's nothing else worth looking at, right? :P
Aug 18 20:03:51 <jeremiah> Surely not. :)
Aug 18 20:03:59 <lbt> mlfoster: fair enough. Are you moving in that direction? I know it's kinda hard for us in Nokia too.
Aug 18 20:04:04 <GAN900> OK, so long as we're all clear.
Aug 18 20:04:04 <vgrade> mlfoster, no public meetings!
Aug 18 20:04:13 <jeremiah> lbt: They are moving along nicely.
Aug 18 20:04:24 <jeremiah> There will be public meetings I am sure.
Aug 18 20:04:45 <GAN900> Open isn't actually open. It wouldn't be fun if we didn't have to fight tooth and nail every step of the way.
Aug 18 20:04:55 <mlfoster> we don't even have a working group yet. :-(
Aug 18 20:04:59 <jeremiah> Well, you're all gonna love IVI then!
Aug 18 20:05:10 <jeremiah> Your teeth and nails will be falling out.
Aug 18 20:05:47 <Stskeeps> mskarpne: thanks for what looks like a sane compliance approach
Aug 18 20:05:59 <sebs__> so this is really sick
Aug 18 20:06:00 <lbt> mlfoster: it's an area of personal interest ... so I'm watching out for your arrival.
Aug 18 20:06:08 <jeremiah> Yeah, if you guys can pull this off, it will be pretty amazing
Aug 18 20:06:12 <GAN900> Not mine, these days. ;)
Aug 18 20:06:25 <jeremiah> GAN900: Have you joined the dark side?
Aug 18 20:06:32 <sebs__> the re-flashing of memo didnt work because the usb port seems to break easily
Aug 18 20:06:37 <mskarpne> Stskeeps:  thanks for the feedback
Aug 18 20:06:46 <lbt> mskarpne: yes... looks good
Aug 18 20:06:59 <CosmoHill> mskarpne: kudos
Aug 18 20:07:03 <sebs__> the n900 is maybe a pre production sample
Aug 18 20:07:05 <mskarpne> we'll try to get a lot more details out soon so we can get feedback on the details
Aug 18 20:07:08 <mlfoster> lbt: I'm just baby-sitting for now. :-) Joel Clark is the main man
Aug 18 20:07:13 <jeremiah> lbt: Can I get an rsync ho;alsk
Aug 18 20:07:18 <mskarpne> lbt, CosmoHill: thanks
Aug 18 20:07:20 <jeremiah> Oy
Aug 18 20:07:23 <lbt> mskarpne: I'm working on the "garage" side so that's why I was interested in those points
Aug 18 20:07:40 <mskarpne> lbt:  ah, makes sense
Aug 18 20:07:46 <lbt> we need to think of how to setup builds to provide OSS apps to different platforms
Aug 18 20:07:53 <jeremiah> lbt: How do I get an rsync hook into MeeGo OBS if I want to host my own OBS instance?
Aug 18 20:07:55 <lbt> we need an x86 to get the fans in
Aug 18 20:07:59 <jeremiah> lbt: Who do I speak to
Aug 18 20:08:04 <lbt> anas
Aug 18 20:08:13 <jeremiah> ah
Aug 18 20:08:16 <mskarpne> lbt:  yes - you mean figuring out how to deliver the right binary to a given platform?
Aug 18 20:08:16 <jeremiah> thanks
Aug 18 20:08:20 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: or just rsync off kernel.org like the rest of people..
Aug 18 20:08:28 <lbt> mskarpne: yes
Aug 18 20:08:38 <lbt> and how to label things and present multiple targets
Aug 18 20:08:38 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: But I may need to provide options to the decision makers
Aug 18 20:08:47 <GAN900> jeremiah, probably going to get an iPhone if there's nothing free or discounted.
Aug 18 20:08:57 <jeremiah> That is dark indeed.
Aug 18 20:09:12 <jeremiah> ALthough they say the iPhone 4 is pretty cool.
Aug 18 20:09:15 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: the problem is two-fold.. there's a bug in OBS so you can't easily do 'OBS linking' right now
Aug 18 20:09:20 <GAN900> Watching the same mistakes replayed over and over and generally wasting the last 5 years of your hobby time isn't something I'd like to continue.
Aug 18 20:09:31 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: so people are manually importing the released binary packages
Aug 18 20:09:34 <lbt> jeremiah: yes... periodic sync (weekly) is pretty sane
Aug 18 20:09:47 <lbt> we do that internally at nokia
Aug 18 20:09:56 <lbt> and on the community OBS too
Aug 18 20:10:05 <jeremiah> lbt: Ah, okay.
Aug 18 20:10:28 <lbt> mskarpne: so the compliance... we can make a community build of generic x86 and be safe calling it MeeGo
Aug 18 20:10:39 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: When you say manually, you mean using curl or something?
Aug 18 20:10:46 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: rsync
Aug 18 20:10:48 <lbt> given we'll likely do nothing other than tweak the build flags
Aug 18 20:11:37 <lbt> mskarpne: the objective there is to reach the wider linux base and minimise barriers to participation and trial
Aug 18 20:11:43 <jeremiah> So the only rsync option right nobw is up at Kernel.org?
Aug 18 20:12:08 <lbt> jeremiah: once you've seen the meego.com OBS bwidth... you'll be right up there....
Aug 18 20:12:22 <Stskeeps> yeah, you will want to take kernel.org
Aug 18 20:12:29 <jeremiah> okay, cool.
Aug 18 20:12:34 <jeremiah> I'll try to stress that.
Aug 18 20:12:50 <lcuk> GAN900, "free or discounted"  you have a free android don't you?
Aug 18 20:12:52 <lbt> mlfoster: OK ... good to see some IVI people around... although jeremiah does tend to drown you all out ;)
Aug 18 20:13:05 * lbt ducks and....
Aug 18 20:13:07 <jeremiah> I'm just afraid of feedback saying; "that is not official, that is not compliant, etc."
Aug 18 20:13:15 <GAN900> lcuk, I can't stand Android and I don't agree with them politically or ethically.
Aug 18 20:13:18 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: nah, it's a exact mirror
Aug 18 20:13:18 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 20:13:23 <ali1234> jeremiah: why fear it?
Aug 18 20:13:25 * lcuk thought mlfoster and jeremiah were related at first o_O
Aug 18 20:13:27 <mdp> jeremiah, hi, that was me that mentioned 5310 on the meeting
Aug 18 20:13:35 * jeremiah presents lbt with a bouquet of flowers for putting up with all my crap. =)
Aug 18 20:13:37 <mlfoster> jeremiah: so, you are an IVI guy? That's wonderful. There don't seem to be too many around.
Aug 18 20:13:53 <mdp> mlfoster, there's more arriving every day here :)
Aug 18 20:13:55 <lbt> jeremiah: np... is the OBS stuff going OK?
Aug 18 20:13:57 <lcuk> GAN900, *nod*
Aug 18 20:13:59 <mlfoster> mdp: and that bug is assigned to me! :-(
Aug 18 20:14:06 <jeremiah> mlfoster: I met another one at Linuxcon :)
Aug 18 20:14:08 <CosmoHill> my car doesn't even have a CD player >.<
Aug 18 20:14:09 <mdp> mlfoster, sorry!
Aug 18 20:14:12 <tcounihan_> mkfoster: another here to
Aug 18 20:14:15 <jeremiah> I think he's gonna be great. :)
Aug 18 20:14:15 <GAN900> lcuk, at least Apple is upfront about what it is and isn't.
Aug 18 20:14:17 <Stskeeps> mlfoster: if you want some practical guidance on making it happen, feel free to prod me
Aug 18 20:14:18 <lcuk> GAN900, did you see that mohammadag has started hacking on hildon-* stuff
Aug 18 20:14:24 <Stskeeps> mlfoster: (from meego n900 team here)
Aug 18 20:14:28 <lbt> wow... IVI woodworm....
Aug 18 20:14:37 <jeremiah> Yeah, tcounihan_ knows more about this IVI stuff than I do
Aug 18 20:14:41 <mdp> jeremiah, somehow I missed you at linuxcon
Aug 18 20:14:45 <tcounihan_> lbt: tin rust actually
Aug 18 20:14:50 <jeremiah> Ask him anything! :)
Aug 18 20:14:52 <lbt> ah... good point ;)
Aug 18 20:15:05 <jeremiah> mdp: Yeah, sorry. I was mostly holed up in webex meetings.
Aug 18 20:15:06 * lbt has been running linux in his car since ~2000
Aug 18 20:15:14 <jeremiah> Missed a lot of Linuxcon
Aug 18 20:15:19 <mdp> jeremiah, lol...I ended up doing the same thing
Aug 18 20:15:24 <jeremiah> :)
Aug 18 20:15:26 <lbt> although I doubt my empegs will ever be MeeGo compliant ;)
Aug 18 20:15:39 <lbt> jeremiah: I've done a load more docs on Xen/OBS btw...
Aug 18 20:15:44 <mlfoster> I can feel the love already. ;-)
Aug 18 20:15:56 <jeremiah> lbt: You are the single best person in the entire universe
Aug 18 20:16:01 <jeremiah> Because I need those docs. :)
Aug 18 20:16:12 <jeremiah> Although I got a good go round with Stskeeps :)
Aug 18 20:16:18 <lbt> http://wiki.meego.com/Build_Infrastructure/Community_Builder/Installation
Aug 18 20:16:20 <jeremiah> Who is also the best preson in the universe
Aug 18 20:16:32 <lbt> cut'n'paste to get a full OBS install
Aug 18 20:16:40 <Phazorx> ever since having shoutcast server at home with wap interface i can controll from my phone my dream was to be able to tune-in/select what to play while being in the car
Aug 18 20:16:43 * jeremiah plays a tango or fox trot for lbt 
Aug 18 20:16:56 <lbt> tango... Argentine please
Aug 18 20:17:00 <Phazorx> but grps/evdo providers are not flat rate friendly where i been :(
Aug 18 20:17:06 <jeremiah> Yes sir!
Aug 18 20:17:33 <ali1234> lbt: do i need to use XEN? because i'm not
Aug 18 20:17:46 <jeremiah> Yeah, I think you have to right lbt?
Aug 18 20:17:52 <jeremiah> Something about nesting virtual instances
Aug 18 20:17:57 <lbt> ali1234: only for shared OBSes
Aug 18 20:18:19 <jeremiah> "Shared OBSes" What is that?
Aug 18 20:18:20 <ali1234> so it won't affect the actual result of builds?
Aug 18 20:18:22 <lbt> you can use chroot for one with trusted users... but not a good idea for production
Aug 18 20:18:29 <lbt> (and kvm is an alternative)
Aug 18 20:18:31 <lbt> ali1234: no
Aug 18 20:18:38 <ali1234> i'm using chroot i guess
Aug 18 20:18:44 <lbt> jeremiah: one that is on the internet
Aug 18 20:18:45 <jeremiah> Ah, I see, shared in this instance means lots of users
Aug 18 20:18:47 <lbt> yes
Aug 18 20:18:51 <jeremiah> cool, thanks
Aug 18 20:19:45 * sebs__ learned 2day: first try the downgrade before applying the upgrade ;) 
Aug 18 20:19:56 <lbt> oh... and watch out for osc on python2.6 ... bugs
Aug 18 20:20:23 <jeremiah> heh, I don't think python2.6 will be in Squeeze so I don't have to worry.
Aug 18 20:20:38 <ali1234> i'm using the OBS appliance.. it has python 2.6 :(
Aug 18 20:20:39 <jeremiah> How many LOC is mic?
Aug 18 20:20:45 <jeremiah> ah.
Aug 18 20:20:47 <lbt> really jeremiah? I thought it was
Aug 18 20:21:07 <jeremiah> I think it will remain in unstable, but now I have to check
Aug 18 20:21:12 <ali1234> i don't use osc much though
Aug 18 20:21:16 <jeremiah> (Squeeze is frozen)
Aug 18 20:21:21 <lbt> ali1234:  you should
Aug 18 20:21:22 <ali1234> i only use it for importsrcpkg actually
Aug 18 20:21:32 <ali1234> everything else i do through the webif
Aug 18 20:25:38 <jeremiah> So no chance on getting the IVI MeeGo image to build in a virtual machine?
Aug 18 20:25:50 <Stskeeps> image can build fine in a vm
Aug 18 20:25:56 <Stskeeps> i mean, we build images fine in a fedora vm..
Aug 18 20:25:56 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 18 20:26:17 <jeremiah> Oh! \0/
Aug 18 20:26:25 <Stskeeps> building OBS securely in a vm is a different matter
Aug 18 20:27:44 <jeremiah> heh
Aug 18 20:27:48 <jeremiah> I won't even try
Aug 18 20:28:17 <jeremiah> I think I am going to have to use OpenSuSE for the OBS
Aug 18 20:28:24 <jeremiah> Just because I think it will be easier
Aug 18 20:28:25 <Stskeeps> wise choice
Aug 18 20:28:29 <jeremiah> :)
Aug 18 20:29:26 <mdp> jeremiah, I've gone that route for my local experimental OBS
Aug 18 20:30:03 <mdp> going smoothly so far, just need to limit the local interrupts
Aug 18 20:30:24 <ali1234> if you just want a OBS you can play around on, by far the easiest way: http://wiki.meego.com/User:Ali1234
Aug 18 20:34:42 <MaikelZ> hello
Aug 18 20:35:44 <MaikelZ> i have a question, is there any way to run meego on a non ssse3 cpu, atm?
Aug 18 20:36:18 <CosmoHill> atm? no
Aug 18 20:36:29 <jeremiah> mdp: Aha, good to know
Aug 18 20:37:16 <jeremiah> ali1234: Looks great, but I might need a more production-ready builder.
Aug 18 20:37:37 <auke> MaikelZ: sure, there's an ARM port
Aug 18 20:37:46 <auke> ;)
Aug 18 20:37:52 <tripzero> haha
Aug 18 20:37:57 <tripzero> auke, i was just about to say that
Aug 18 20:37:58 <tripzero> :P
Aug 18 20:38:06 <ali1234> MaikelZ: http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/nonSSSE3
Aug 18 20:38:14 <MaikelZ> thanks
Aug 18 20:38:47 <ali1234> when it's possibly, that page will tell you how, but for now it isn't possible
Aug 18 20:39:52 <tripzero> ali1234, are you working/hacking on the public obs as well?
Aug 18 20:39:59 <ali1234> no
Aug 18 20:40:06 <ali1234> the public OBS is not public
Aug 18 20:40:25 <ali1234> unless you mean the opensuse one
Aug 18 20:41:22 <ali1234> i have an account there but i don't think it's really meant for uploading entire distros
Aug 18 20:42:18 <tripzero> ali1234, i mean the build.obs.maemo.org one
Aug 18 20:42:33 <tripzero> yeah, i know it's not open to the public yet
Aug 18 20:42:58 <tripzero> ali1234, you should bug lbt for access
Aug 18 20:43:11 <ali1234> i don't see how it would help me tbh
Aug 18 20:43:20 <ali1234> and i certainly don't see how i can help them
Aug 18 20:43:26 <ali1234> given i have no idea what i am doing
Aug 18 20:43:32 <tripzero> heh
Aug 18 20:43:44 <tripzero> reading you wiki page, you seem to know *something*
Aug 18 20:43:54 <ali1234> but i have a special requirement: i want to build on a machine without ssse3
Aug 18 20:44:03 <ali1234> afaik the maemo OBS does not have that limitation
Aug 18 20:44:08 <ali1234> so they are solving a different problem
Aug 18 20:45:03 <lbt> tripzero... ali1234 doesn't want to work on a machine that needs non-anonymous access... (right ali1234?)
Aug 18 20:45:17 <ali1234> that too
Aug 18 20:45:27 <tripzero> oh
Aug 18 20:45:28 <tripzero> lame
Aug 18 20:45:29 <lbt> the maemo obs is actually an AMD box.... shhh
Aug 18 20:45:34 <tripzero> lol
Aug 18 20:45:34 <arfoll> what's wrong with non anon access?
Aug 18 20:45:40 <arfoll> lbt: LMAO
Aug 18 20:46:05 <ali1234> well, not non anonymous but not open to the public
Aug 18 20:46:12 <tripzero> lbt, who else is hacking on the obs's?
Aug 18 20:46:19 <arfoll> the repo's are though... just the actual projects
Aug 18 20:46:34 <ali1234> for example i have a launchpad account but i won't sign the CoC
Aug 18 20:46:43 * tripzero wonders what it takes to get more build infrastructure going (like autotools, pkg-config, etc)
Aug 18 20:46:47 <ali1234> so i can't use their build service
Aug 18 20:46:59 <lbt> lbt we're still in beta... so we're working on getting the maemo stuff to build... so people need to have an N900
Aug 18 20:47:22 <arfoll> but there is no condition as far as I know to use the maemo OBS...
Aug 18 20:47:33 <lbt> when the meego.com public one opens we'll have that wide open
Aug 18 20:47:42 <lbt> arfoll: there is ... it has fremantle on it
Aug 18 20:47:47 <lbt> binaries
Aug 18 20:48:07 <tripzero> lbt, meego.com is going to open?
Aug 18 20:48:23 <lbt> public one... yes. not build.meego.com
Aug 18 20:48:36 <tripzero> lbt, your public one?
Aug 18 20:48:38 <lbt> yes
Aug 18 20:48:41 <tripzero> ahk
Aug 18 20:48:58 <tripzero> different than what's on build.obs.maemo.org?
Aug 18 20:48:59 <lbt> "my" public on is a meego.com machine at OSU
Aug 18 20:49:23 <tripzero> oh
Aug 18 20:49:34 <lbt> yes... but when it's up we'll unplug build.obs.maemo.org and ship it over and plug it in
Aug 18 20:49:42 <tripzero> cool
Aug 18 20:49:43 <tripzero> eta?
Aug 18 20:49:52 <lbt> weeks
Aug 18 20:50:06 <lbt> before the conference :)
Aug 18 20:50:14 <tripzero> mkk
Aug 18 20:50:19 <tripzero> :)
Aug 18 20:50:47 <lbt> feel free to pay me to take a day off work and work on it... I already spend most of my weekends and evenings on it
Aug 18 20:50:54 * sebs__ thinks meego will not boot from a fat32 microsdcard
Aug 18 20:50:59 <sebs__> ;)
Aug 18 20:51:35 <lbt> although recently I've not actually had any weekends...
Aug 18 20:52:02 <tripzero> summer happens to us all
Aug 18 20:52:38 <CosmoHill> unless you live in iceland
Aug 18 20:52:49 <ali1234> i was just about to ask if all this OBS stuff is going to be "ready" before the conference :)
Aug 18 20:52:52 <sebs__> to complete the list of shame i filled while trying to setup meego: false images, not using -l instead -f, FAT32 instead of ext* on the microsd, not knowing the way back, having a empty battery (after 20 tries) and a broken USB port on a N900
Aug 18 20:53:08 * sebs__ shakes his head 
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 18 20:55:40 2010
Aug 18 20:57:25 <ali1234> damn, i filled my disk :(
Aug 18 20:57:51 <ali1234> i forgot ~root was not on home... oops
Aug 18 20:59:06 <Pforce> wow
Aug 18 20:59:26 * CosmoHill plugs the cable back in
Aug 18 20:59:47 * Gizmokid2005 eats CosmoHill for pulling the plug
Aug 18 20:59:53 <CosmoHill> :o
Aug 18 20:59:54 <vgrade> ali1234, gcc-4.5.0-6.3 builds against meego:current on build.obs.maemo.org
Aug 18 20:59:58 <vgrade> ali1234
Aug 18 21:01:00 <vgrade> ali1234 gcc-4.5.0-6.3 fails with 'nothin provides mpc-devel' when built against meego:1.0:core on build.obs.maemo.org
Aug 18 21:01:19 <ali1234> yeah sounds like the problem i have
Aug 18 21:01:51 <ali1234> if you tell it to build gcc and mpc then it will build first mpc, then gcc, then mpc again, and at that point it fails
Aug 18 21:01:59 <CosmoHill> could you try "--nodeps" ?
Aug 18 21:02:05 <ali1234> because gcc now depends on mpc to run
Aug 18 21:02:19 <vgrade> there is no problem, if you use a build repository which is matched to the gcc version it works
Aug 18 21:02:38 <ali1234> i cannot use a meego repository
Aug 18 21:03:34 <vgrade> why not, what am I missing
Aug 18 21:03:43 <ali1234> meego repositories need ssse3
Aug 18 21:04:51 <vgrade> still not getting it
Aug 18 21:05:19 <ali1234> my machine does not have ssse3
Aug 18 21:05:30 <MaikelZ> @ ali1234 so you need a repos sever for non-ssse3 only?
Aug 18 21:05:52 <vgrade> evening arjan
Aug 18 21:05:58 <ali1234> MaikelZ: yes, i need meego compiled for non-ssse3 in order to build meego for non-ssse3
Aug 18 21:06:31 <vgrade> so you need to use the maemo OBS
Aug 18 21:06:51 <ali1234> no, i don't "need" to use the maemo OBS
Aug 18 21:07:11 <ali1234> i need to figure out how to hack enough meego packages so that they compile on fedora or opensuse, and then use them to build meego
Aug 18 21:07:15 <vgrade> ok, you could use it
Aug 18 21:09:44 <ali1234> so does the meego:current prjconf have a line like "Require: mpc"
Aug 18 21:09:57 <ali1234> cos what you pasted yesterday doesn't
Aug 18 21:10:11 <ali1234> so i am confused as to how it ends up inside the buildroot
Aug 18 21:10:42 <vgrade> the one I posted was the meego:1.0:core one not the meego:current one
Aug 18 21:10:47 <vgrade> sec I'll post
Aug 18 21:10:51 <ali1234> ty
Aug 18 21:22:40 <vgrade> the meego:current prjconf does not have any reference to mpc, but it is installed from the build cache, I guess due to the gcc spec. http://pastebin.com/K3F9eby0
Aug 18 21:23:09 <ali1234> well... that makes no sense
Aug 18 21:23:27 <ali1234> i see it gets installed on line 200
Aug 18 21:23:49 <ali1234> but that is when building gcc
Aug 18 21:24:06 <ali1234> what happens when it subsequently tries to rebuild mpc?
Aug 18 21:24:41 <CosmoHill> on my left I have ali1234, on my right I have Grumpy Old Men on bbc2
Aug 18 21:25:09 <vgrade> sec, I'll upload that source package to the OBS
Aug 18 21:26:18 <sivang> so I don't get it- I signed up for the conference, and now it wants me to book the hotel?
Aug 18 21:26:31 <sivang> but what if I can attend only if I get some travel assistance?
Aug 18 21:26:48 <sivang> then I want to book only if I get that assistance
Aug 18 21:27:28 <sivang> and what are the proper dates? :)
Aug 18 21:27:51 <sivang> the interface let's me choose from 12/Nov to 19/Nov .
Aug 18 21:27:53 * sivang is confused.
Aug 18 21:29:00 <ali1234> the real conf is 13/14/15th
Aug 18 21:29:14 <ali1234> but you might want to arrive the day before hence 12th
Aug 18 21:29:20 <ali1234> i dunno about the rest
Aug 18 21:29:58 <sivang> the dates on the banner say 15-17 :)
Aug 18 21:30:08 <ali1234> lol wat
Aug 18 21:30:14 <ali1234> i need to check this
Aug 18 21:30:26 <sivang> https://cpregistrations.com/MeeGo2010/default.asp?page=reg-participant&wizard.stage=2&wizard.session=82215
Aug 18 21:30:29 <sivang> can you check this?
Aug 18 21:31:10 <ali1234> hmm yeah that's right actually 15th is a monday
Aug 18 21:32:59 <ali1234> i must have been thinking of NDS
Aug 18 21:33:25 <DawnFoster> sivang: you can wait to book your hotel
Aug 18 21:34:11 * thiago_home wonders if he should register too
Aug 18 21:35:53 * ali1234 had flight and hotel booked before the conf registration was even open
Aug 18 21:43:16 <vgrade> ali1234, mpc upoaded to OBS, blocked waiting for cpp as gcc bulid is in progress
Aug 18 21:48:39 <trem> nite all, sweet dreams
Aug 18 22:01:43 <ali1234> awesome, rpm actually managed to build without the unpackaged files error
Aug 18 22:01:53 <ali1234> rpm from 1.0.1 against fedora 13 that is :)
Aug 18 22:02:25 <mdp> hrm, thinking about that compliance discussion...made me wonder about the whole gtk thing in the architecture
Aug 18 22:02:29 <ali1234> and now it is building it... again?
Aug 18 22:02:39 <ali1234> oh well, w/e
Aug 18 22:02:44 <mdp> so gtk is by definition part of the middleware and therefore part of MeeGo Core
Aug 18 22:03:00 <mdp> but yet it's not part of the versioned MeeGo API (yet?)
Aug 18 22:03:19 <mdp> but required to be in the stack to gain device compliance
Aug 18 22:03:29 <mdp> if I understand correctly
Aug 18 22:05:17 <arjan> mdp: it's there for legacy apps
Aug 18 22:05:37 <mdp> arjan, ok, I kinda figured it stuck from moblin
Aug 18 22:05:50 <arjan> there's also a ton of LSB software that needs it
Aug 18 22:06:01 <arjan> and meego compliance is kind of trying to be not too far away from LSB
Aug 18 22:06:05 <arjan> at least not in the subtractive sense
Aug 18 22:06:27 <arjan> quite a few things ONLY require gtk (and glibc)
Aug 18 22:06:38 <arjan> it's not the most elegant part of the architecture
Aug 18 22:06:41 <arjan> I'll give you that
Aug 18 22:06:45 <arjan> but it's pretty hard to not have gtk
Aug 18 22:07:33 <mdp> ok, I see the LSB issue
Aug 18 22:08:55 <mdp> arjan, by "quite a few things" requiring gtk, you mean specific apps included in the current release?
Aug 18 22:14:12 <arjan> not so much apps we have
Aug 18 22:14:34 <arjan> as things like flash player, the various plugins to browsers, the various LSB reference apps
Aug 18 22:14:38 <arjan> is just reality
Aug 18 22:14:45 <arjan> gtk does not make sense really on a touch only device.
Aug 18 22:14:53 <arjan> but .... looooooooooooong discussion
Aug 18 22:15:04 <TSCHAKeee> clutter
Aug 18 22:15:07 <TSCHAKeee> *cough*
Aug 18 22:15:09 <mdp> heh, ok
Aug 18 22:15:17 <arjan> TSCHAKeee: even longer discussion.
Aug 18 22:15:19 <alistair> but why should connected-tv and ivi require gtk as they are effectively clean slate devices in MeeGo with no baggage from previous work
Aug 18 22:15:53 <arjan> alistair: ivi is sadly currently chockful of gtk using stuff
Aug 18 22:15:57 <arjan> ivi.. yeah that's QT only
Aug 18 22:16:03 <arjan> eh TV on the second one
Aug 18 22:16:13 <arjan> but.. again if you want a flash plugin or similar stuff ;(
Aug 18 22:16:13 <alistair> well there's no TV yet...
Aug 18 22:16:24 <arjan> LSB has it, which means tons of 3rd party vendors use it
Aug 18 22:16:34 <arjan> explicitly removing it and going away from LSB is not very nice
Aug 18 22:16:34 <mdp> alistair, so that's where I was going to go as well...wondering if it's possible to make a new UX without those things..would be nice to be compliant
Aug 18 22:16:38 <arjan> and it's not like GTK is huge
Aug 18 22:17:52 <arjan> but as I said, it's not the most sane part of the architecture in that way
Aug 18 22:18:12 <alistair> its totally possible to create a UX without gtk but it comes down to whether gtk is in the core and as arjan says how much does it cost to carry around the extra few MB
Aug 18 22:18:57 <Macer> blah
Aug 18 22:19:03 <mdp> alistair, sure technically possible. so yeah, just carry it around if you want to be compliant..np
Aug 18 22:19:53 <mdp> it's one thing I see people ask about when they see gtk/clutter/qt in the arch...confuses many brains
Aug 18 22:49:51 <denro> Hey guys ive been looking at this project for a while to install on my sony vaio p with gma500 should i even try or is it still a dead end this dammed peace of plastic?
Aug 18 22:51:03 <denro> sad thing i bought it in feb and only used it for one month, that was how long i standed vista
Aug 18 22:51:32 <denro> since then no real progress in the gma500 problem?
Aug 18 22:52:29 <CosmoHill> i think there might be a wiki page about the GMA5000
Aug 18 22:59:27 <denro> CosmoHill: yeah someone got it working with some relase that has been removed:/
Aug 18 23:00:27 <CosmoHill> as far as I know it's not been released because of something to do with the driver lisence
Aug 18 23:01:06 <denro> the most sad thing is that all other is soo nice, i mean suspend, screen,
Aug 18 23:01:27 <denro> and fast bootup, compared to the otehr distros
Aug 18 23:03:11 <denro> i bought it to have a clean nice portable device, i gues im just sad and desperate cos ive never actually got to use ut :D
Aug 18 23:03:38 <CosmoHill> either find a purpose for it
Aug 18 23:03:47 <CosmoHill> or restore it to factory settings and sell it quickly
Aug 18 23:09:38 <denro> is there anyone who know a linux distro that might work?
Aug 18 23:12:47 * CosmoHill gives vgrade a poke
Aug 18 23:48:51 <balor> does bzr exist in the Meego repos?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 19 02:59:57 2010