**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 31 02:59:57 2010 Aug 31 03:22:24 Is there some place where I can get instructions to checkout Meego trunk and build it for my netbook? Aug 31 04:33:01 The Community Office Meeting starts in about 30 minutes in #meego-meeting. Details here: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Meetings Aug 31 04:47:40 mmf Aug 31 04:48:28 morning lbt :) Aug 31 04:48:35 good morning Aug 31 04:49:12 how's you? Aug 31 04:49:45 good - I just have to get through this meeting and I can go to bed Aug 31 04:49:58 I have another 7am meeting tomorrow am :) Aug 31 04:49:59 me too Aug 31 04:56:31 * Stskeeps tries to awaken but fails Aug 31 04:57:00 stskeeps: you can do it! Aug 31 04:57:31 * X-Fade needs a lot of coffee Aug 31 04:58:27 already 8am here :) Aug 31 04:59:49 morning Aug 31 05:00:12 well at least i'm glad it's not a telco Aug 31 05:01:42 Indeed. Aug 31 05:02:40 sent a mail to -community to reply to Quim Aug 31 05:03:57 no Jaffa? Aug 31 05:04:03 part-timer ;) Aug 31 05:10:45 * slaine yawns and stretches and gets a coffee Aug 31 05:13:24 DawnFoster: I was just noting it - Jaffa and dneary will also be interested :) Aug 31 05:13:54 lbt: we can talk about this later - there were reasons to have one page on the website for contribution guidelines Aug 31 05:14:05 the page was already there and linked to, but blank Aug 31 05:14:10 searchability, etc. Aug 31 05:14:20 it will link to the other, more detailed guidelines on the wiki Aug 31 05:14:43 this was an exception made for good reasons, not a "change" in how we are treating documentation Aug 31 05:15:31 ah, makes sense Aug 31 05:25:54 slaine: sure Aug 31 05:28:34 any MeeGo Touch guys around? Aug 31 05:35:41 Hey guys, I'm trying to compile libmeegotouch, but I get some warnings. How do I remove the -Werror from the gcc calls? Aug 31 05:43:32 man, this really is a morning of inflammatory topics.. :P Aug 31 05:43:41 :) Aug 31 05:44:12 it wakes you up Aug 31 05:46:10 Stskeeps: what again? Aug 31 05:48:12 ooh... sunlight Aug 31 05:58:05 * slaine scratches face, hmmm I need a shave Aug 31 06:00:47 dneary: see earlier comments about wiki/docs Aug 31 06:00:54 /query dneary Aug 31 06:00:56 err.. Aug 31 06:04:49 Stskeeps, what does /query do? Aug 31 06:04:57 dneary: moves to your window :) Aug 31 06:05:10 lbt, Might have been before I got on Aug 31 06:05:24 lbt: we can talk about this later - there were reasons to have one page on the website for contribution guidelines Aug 31 06:05:24 the page was already there and linked to, but blank Aug 31 06:05:24 searchability, etc. Aug 31 06:05:24 it will link to the other, more detailed guidelines on the wiki Aug 31 06:05:24 this was an exception made for good reasons, not a "change" in how we are treating documentation Aug 31 06:05:49 lbt: you're making too much out of a single page move to the website :) Aug 31 06:06:11 nipping it in the bud Aug 31 06:06:32 if it's a "single page move" then we can move it back, yes? Aug 31 06:06:41 How about linking it to the original page in the wiki? Aug 31 06:06:50 sounds good Aug 31 06:07:06 Wiki pages can be write protected if needed. Aug 31 06:07:09 DawnFoster: what do you think? Aug 31 06:07:21 X-Fade: I hate write protected wiki pages Aug 31 06:07:42 I think it's fine to have a single contribution guidelines page on the website Aug 31 06:07:51 why? Aug 31 06:07:52 I'm happy to talk about this later, but not right before bed Aug 31 06:08:09 you guys can catch me on this in my morning Aug 31 06:08:13 OK ... tomorrow ... g'night Aug 31 06:08:13 DawnFoster: Well website page is write protected too ;) Aug 31 06:08:26 website pages are meant to be write protected Aug 31 06:08:31 wiki pages are not Aug 31 06:08:32 DawnFoster: Hehe, good night. Don't let us keep you up :) Aug 31 06:08:56 this is less about write protection and more about searchability and having useful information on our website for people to find easily Aug 31 06:09:28 DawnFoster: Maybe all is needed then is to point to the wiki page revision at the bottom of that page. Aug 31 06:09:39 So the source is known. Aug 31 06:09:55 'Exported from ...' Aug 31 06:10:11 * Stskeeps looks at his morning coffee Aug 31 06:10:20 (tuning out - going to bed) Aug 31 06:11:44 mm, sleep, that would be good right now Aug 31 06:15:44 Stskeeps: Do you ever sleep? :) Aug 31 06:15:58 X-Fade: yeah, usually between 11pm and 6am Aug 31 06:15:58 :P Aug 31 06:16:10 Stskeeps: Hehe ;) Aug 31 06:16:16 i don't want to get paranoid like when i've not gotten enough sleep Aug 31 06:16:16 :P Aug 31 06:16:21 bad for business :) Aug 31 07:43:36 wow, a computer Aug 31 07:43:49 * Myrtti has returned from her vacation Aug 31 07:43:51 where have you been, the north pole? :P Aug 31 07:44:08 Cornwall Aug 31 07:45:29 http://www.flickr.com/photos/duncansample/4916953618/ Aug 31 07:46:52 nice umbrella! Aug 31 07:47:19 Myrtti: you are right, there are no computers in cornwall based on those pics :) Aug 31 08:08:39 hmm the rescue-n900 image reboots after a minute or so (even when i'm in the busybox) Aug 31 08:19:43 sejo, does N900 have a hardware watchdog like the N8x0 did? Aug 31 08:20:35 johnx: I have no idea! Aug 31 08:20:47 it does Aug 31 08:20:53 newer kernels has that sorted though Aug 31 08:22:56 Stskeeps: well was trying to see if I can mount the sd manually but by the time i type mount it shuts down :p Aug 31 08:25:46 sejo, some advice on disabling the watchdog, halfway down the page: Aug 31 08:25:46 http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=532 Aug 31 08:28:25 johnx: ok i'll test that Aug 31 08:28:43 it's just a thought. keep in mind I haven't tried that ... Aug 31 08:31:01 nope didin't help with the rescue image ;/ Aug 31 08:39:01 Morning, all Aug 31 09:17:29 DawnFoster: sponsered travel/lodging Aug 31 09:17:47 morning Jaffa Aug 31 09:29:55 morning BuBU, hows the A9 dev going? Aug 31 09:32:16 _BuBU: ever got handset ux going on there? Aug 31 09:32:32 <_BuBU> hi guys Aug 31 09:32:41 <_BuBU> I'm on vacations Aug 31 09:32:44 ah ;) Aug 31 09:32:47 <_BuBU> I did not went further yet Aug 31 10:02:11 * Stskeeps ponders idly why the hotel claims i should arrange payment. Aug 31 10:02:53 * Jaffa was wondering that too Aug 31 10:02:57 Especially since they have his CC details Aug 31 10:03:05 yeah Aug 31 10:03:06 * Jaffa filed it under the handy dandy "Archive" button Aug 31 10:03:25 i mailed back and asked what's they're on about, in nice diplomatic terms Aug 31 10:03:35 and i would have killed them if they sent my credit card details in plain tet. Aug 31 10:03:42 Stskeeps: It was in a PDF! Aug 31 10:03:52 i got mine in ad oc Aug 31 10:06:12 Oh, was it? Gmail showed it in their preview thingy anyway Aug 31 10:20:49 I've look around, and around, for info on porting meego. Or how to build the meego platform, not the sdk. Aug 31 10:21:59 first off, what do you intend to do? Aug 31 10:22:02 X86 or ARM porting? Aug 31 10:22:30 x86, but for a110 (not the acer, the intel a110) Aug 31 10:23:05 does it do SSSE3? Aug 31 10:23:31 no, is that only needed for the opengl es 2.0 stuff? Aug 31 10:23:59 generally for the whole system Aug 31 10:24:26 ok... so what if I wanted to port it to a freescale chip. Aug 31 10:24:44 freescale is easier as armv5 and armv7 exists for meego Aug 31 10:25:33 sure, I guess what I am looking for is a document that contains the requirements for the platform. Aug 31 10:26:06 right, so, meego is currently compiled for X86: tuned for core2, SSSE3 instructions. for ARM: armv5 and armv7 Aug 31 10:26:25 that's the binary packages delivered off repo.meego.com Aug 31 10:27:02 ah, but there isn't any source for that. Aug 31 10:27:09 sure there is :) Aug 31 10:27:14 in source/ directory Aug 31 10:27:35 but it's like redhat/fedora/debian, source packages are made into binary packages, not rebuilt every time for a image Aug 31 10:27:49 right, that makes sense Aug 31 10:28:13 you can probably build for your own processor or whatever, but sometimes it's not worth it unless it just doesn't work Aug 31 10:28:16 :P Aug 31 10:28:21 an arm rebuild can take up to 3 days Aug 31 10:28:30 with a build farm Aug 31 10:30:24 yea, it would be crazy to try and port the world. I am just interested in the "Base Platform". Enough to see if I can get the wheels to roll before I drive down the street with gps ;) Aug 31 10:30:33 hehe Aug 31 10:34:42 well. I'm gonna sleep (3:29am pst), but I'll lurk in case someone can answer... Aug 31 11:45:27 the latest chromium build is really fast with --enable-accelerated-compositing flag Aug 31 11:57:46 sorry about the short notice but QA-tools meeting starting in about 5 minutes in #meego-meeting Aug 31 11:58:06 thanks timoph - i was about to announce that :) Aug 31 11:58:55 np Aug 31 12:20:46 does anyone know the method used to detect LCD type on N900? Aug 31 12:23:01 ali1234: MIPID maybe Aug 31 12:23:09 MIPID? Aug 31 12:23:46 the LCD takes serial command? hmm Aug 31 12:25:23 looks complicated... i really just need to detect qemu :) Aug 31 12:26:42 it emulates acx panel afaik Aug 31 12:26:51 might be wrong Aug 31 12:27:03 in qemu the framebuffer is 32bit, in n900 it is 16 bit Aug 31 12:27:23 i suspect qemu follows the host colour depth Aug 31 12:43:17 Stskeeps: how long did it takes to port meego to arm ? Aug 31 12:43:53 vlj: who says we're done? ;) Aug 31 12:44:01 hmm Aug 31 12:44:29 vlj: we just typed make Aug 31 12:44:30 :-) Aug 31 12:44:48 well I'm tempted to get toshiba smartbook Aug 31 12:45:07 but I'm not sure it can run "out of the box" with arm build of meego Aug 31 12:45:27 that depends on the HW Aug 31 12:45:33 ARM has a lot more HW differences than x86 Aug 31 12:45:34 tegra 2 :/ Aug 31 12:45:37 and a lot less in detecting Aug 31 12:45:42 Tegra is very high-end... Aug 31 12:45:48 however, the team is focussing on OMAP3 Aug 31 12:46:04 so it won't work with tegra 2 ? Aug 31 12:46:11 * thiago needs to call NVidia again to get that other Tegra board they promised Aug 31 12:46:23 cool Aug 31 12:46:25 vlj: tegra 2 should work Aug 31 12:46:25 vlj: unknown. YMMV now. Aug 31 12:46:31 armv7 without neon Aug 31 12:46:32 YMMV ? Aug 31 12:46:46 you may vary...? Aug 31 12:47:32 I mean binary for arm are not forward compatible or ...? Aug 31 12:51:10 vlj: "Your Mileage May Vary" Aug 31 12:51:30 ok Aug 31 13:15:38 vilvo, jani, timoph... ping... re QA/test automation Aug 31 13:16:02 sorry I missed the meego-meeting... just caught the backlog Aug 31 13:16:19 pong Aug 31 13:16:46 ping Aug 31 13:16:52 so have you seen the nokia-led work being done around BOSS? Aug 31 13:17:18 not seen, ramez forgot to invite me to demo :) Aug 31 13:17:38 have you seen the wiki overview? Aug 31 13:17:50 we are deploying it internally this week Aug 31 13:18:00 and to MeeGo as soon as I get some access Aug 31 13:18:14 current status: "it lives" Aug 31 13:18:20 cool Aug 31 13:18:29 the OTS team are now looking actively Aug 31 13:18:36 http://wiki.meego.com/Infrastructure/BOSS Aug 31 13:18:41 is the main overview page Aug 31 13:18:47 lbt: I've seen wiki overview and sent the link around for people who have asked about boss Aug 31 13:19:07 OK ... the focus is on automating the process around build Aug 31 13:19:27 but I think it would make a useful tool to orchestrate series of tests too Aug 31 13:19:49 so basically taking some tasks from OTS? Aug 31 13:19:55 we have the same target Aug 31 13:20:02 how is OBS upgrade going/gone ? is there a thread/article/wiki on that ? Aug 31 13:20:05 I can see OTS could use the core engine Aug 31 13:20:25 but that's a longer term design issue for the team Aug 31 13:20:47 I'd really like OTS to be able to focus on test management and analysis Aug 31 13:21:02 and allow initiattion to be BOSS driven Aug 31 13:21:03 lbt: do you have a like to the logs? Aug 31 13:21:13 possibly moving to a BOSS driven test flow Aug 31 13:21:29 CosmoHill: logs? Aug 31 13:21:37 for this morngins meeting Aug 31 13:21:42 *link Aug 31 13:21:49 no... the usual though Aug 31 13:22:11 so vilvo I'm in Hel next monday/tuesday Aug 31 13:22:30 Ramez isn't around so we're not likely to have much of a demo needed Aug 31 13:24:25 CosmoHill, THIS ONE? Welcome to the Community Office Meeting! Meeting started Tue Aug 31 04:57:26 2010 UTC http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-08-31-04.57.html Aug 31 13:24:36 yep Aug 31 13:24:40 I just found it thanks Aug 31 13:25:09 do we have a TSG meeting tonight? Aug 31 13:25:24 * lbt rolls a dice Aug 31 13:25:29 lbt: sorry, I'm now in the middle of something but we need to sync with you regarding BOSS/OTS dev Aug 31 13:25:37 lbt: 8 ball would be better :) Aug 31 13:25:41 vilvo: ping me Aug 31 13:25:44 sure Aug 31 13:26:23 thiago: no, it's on thursdays Aug 31 13:26:24 er Aug 31 13:26:26 wednesdays Aug 31 13:26:34 oh, right Aug 31 13:26:49 this month has 31 days... Aug 31 13:29:09 hi everyone Aug 31 13:30:06 can anyone tell me what version this device is likely to be running? Aug 31 13:30:07 http://szhyelec.en.alibaba.com/product/324034506-210116227/10_Epad_Freescale_CPU_1Ghz.html Aug 31 13:30:20 can you tell from the kernel version alone? Aug 31 13:30:48 (2.6.31) Aug 31 13:31:39 mzb, maybe ask the vendor, it is in an android tablet pc section, this channel is to do with meego Aug 31 13:31:40 478 Aug 31 13:32:01 the device runs meego Aug 31 13:32:24 OS: MeeGo linux 2.6.31 ( Equal to Android 2.2 ) Aug 31 13:32:27 specifically Aug 31 13:32:45 and yes, I've sent the vendor a question Aug 31 13:33:38 we never had 2.6.31 Aug 31 13:33:39 :P Aug 31 13:34:13 impressive specs though.. supporting 10.1 on arm and internet explorer Aug 31 13:34:13 :P Aug 31 13:34:19 re the " Equal to Android 2.2 " don't you just love marketing departments Aug 31 13:34:26 odin_: indeed.. Aug 31 13:36:02 it is probably more a case of, "we just make it, please order 50k devices from us, and we will get MeeGo working on it :)" Aug 31 13:36:23 Stskeeps, yeah quite impressive, would be more impressed if i could write on it too Aug 31 13:36:31 the hp slates have that dual layered stuff Aug 31 13:37:40 big difference in price Aug 31 13:37:45 indeed Aug 31 13:37:54 and big difference in resulting writing quality Aug 31 13:37:59 i tried making notes with my finger last night Aug 31 13:38:02 big mistake Aug 31 13:38:13 (by an order of magnitude, I suspect;)) Aug 31 13:38:17 * lcuk looked like doing homework on the back of bumpy bus Aug 31 13:39:52 vendor has *just* replied Aug 31 13:40:02 "just Android 2.1" Aug 31 13:40:04 *sigh* Aug 31 13:40:17 if it was hackable it wouldn't be half bad Aug 31 13:40:17 :P Aug 31 13:40:18 thanks for the help guys ... got my hopes up there for a while ;) Aug 31 13:40:41 nice chip by the looks of it ... battery life is scary Aug 31 14:25:20 is there a panel api change from 1.0 to 1.1? Aug 31 14:52:49 Is it possible to port Meego to other than intel architecture? Aug 31 15:01:40 inteallahonsen: yes Aug 31 15:01:58 by intel do you mean intel atom of x86? Aug 31 15:02:54 CosmoHill: he's already left Aug 31 15:02:59 CosmoHill: less than a minute in the channel Aug 31 15:03:23 I do wish people would learn the difference between IRC and a phone call Aug 31 15:03:46 "no one responded withing 60 seconds, all 480 of them must be out to lunch!" Aug 31 15:04:30 * thiago goes back to valgrinding creator Aug 31 15:04:30 i always wonder why so many people idle in irc channels Aug 31 15:04:35 that''s the reason I got our channel bot to say "hello" to people who join Aug 31 15:04:42 in any given channel 95% of the people will never speak Aug 31 15:05:04 it's important that Stskeeps idles cos he makes the stats Aug 31 15:05:14 i'm in some channels with people who haven't spoken in 4 years, and were there long before i even arrived Aug 31 15:05:32 I'm only on IRC / MSN when my laptop is on and that\s only on when I'm awake (excluding naps) Aug 31 15:06:50 anyway, anybody happen to know the physical address of the n900 onenand chip? Aug 31 15:15:00 * CosmoHill offers arjan coffee Aug 31 15:40:49 hello I try to install libmeegottouch, but ./configure tell me "QMAKESPEC has not been set, so configuration cannot be deduced. Aug 31 15:40:49 Error processing project file: /home/niala/src/git/libmeegotouch/projects.pro" Aug 31 15:43:25 do you know what QMAKESPEC should be set to? Aug 31 15:44:22 eh no. I don't know wht is QMAKESPEC Aug 31 15:48:00 grep -r -i QMAKESPEC * |more no results Aug 31 15:48:48 do you have libqt4-dev installed Aug 31 15:49:59 qt4 from git in /usr/local and qt 3.6 from meego-notebook Aug 31 15:52:42 can I swap from meego-notebook.1 to daily ? I have tested to simply add daily repos. but as expect that didn't work Aug 31 15:54:07 or the only solution is to reinstall with daily.ks Aug 31 16:13:36 morning Aug 31 16:18:46 lbt, my personal view on the irc channel things is that various teams and such has to create an identity and many teams come from internal irc networks where they had their own channels for their work.. consolidation doesn't seem to work to bootstrap work/identity :P Aug 31 16:19:16 and perhaps it's for the better not to have information overload or that you join where you're interested.. Aug 31 16:19:20 :P Aug 31 16:22:43 aanyhow. what's the best way to show our discussion in the morning? flowchart? Aug 31 16:22:48 (the OBS one) Aug 31 16:22:54 *nod* Aug 31 16:24:03 internal irc channels... Aug 31 16:24:39 I think the thing to show is the OBS using external and 'authoritative' repos. Aug 31 16:24:48 :nod: Aug 31 16:24:58 allowing external resource to be pulled into the OBS Aug 31 16:25:09 but not being distributed Aug 31 16:25:40 although I'd like to present some options Aug 31 16:25:53 eg that as a conceptual goal Aug 31 16:25:59 what other options exist? Aug 31 16:26:14 well, allowing "osc build" to "distribute" Aug 31 16:26:32 Stskeeps / lbt: I'm giving up on consolidation Aug 31 16:26:37 like, hacking osc build to contact the server directly Aug 31 16:26:41 yes Aug 31 16:26:58 DawnFoster: change of heart or fed up with trying :) Aug 31 16:27:05 both Aug 31 16:27:05 DawnFoster: alright - it wasn't an opinion on your view as at a given point i thought consilidation would be the right way too.. Aug 31 16:27:15 you persuaded me too Aug 31 16:27:35 I have to say I've stumbled across relevant conversations in backlogs Aug 31 16:27:44 I think it's too early for the community to break off into silos; however, the community is so huge people can't get any work done Aug 31 16:27:45 but i guess the teams that 'break out' and have their own channel are more encouraged to work in the open Aug 31 16:27:55 encouraged/willing Aug 31 16:28:10 consolidation was pushing people into private channels, which is worse than silos Aug 31 16:28:35 i'm certainly learning a fair bit about community creation through our 'problems' here :) Aug 31 16:28:48 well, opening up organisations too Aug 31 16:29:03 The root cause of the problem is that we are 6 months old with the volume of a 5 year old project Aug 31 16:29:21 DawnFoster: good catch on the community/project in the security call BTW Aug 31 16:29:26 and we have 2 very different communities coming together Aug 31 16:29:46 DawnFoster: and unlike other communities we haven't had a chance to grow sanely.. 1 to 400+ in 3 hours from announcement Aug 31 16:29:49 :P Aug 31 16:30:03 lbt: thanks - I *hate* it when people talk about community as something separate - Intel, Nokia, you, me, everyone are part of the community Aug 31 16:30:11 3 communities actually Aug 31 16:30:35 ali1234: Moblin, Maemo & ? Aug 31 16:30:44 DawnFoster: true... but you know... I don't think it says that on MeeGo.com Aug 31 16:30:55 "everyone who ever tried to contribute to maemo or moblin and got turned away" Aug 31 16:31:08 I just gave myself a task to do a better job of defining "community" :) Aug 31 16:31:19 * slonopotamus yawns Aug 31 16:31:20 ali1234: ah, you mean maemo.org ;) Aug 31 16:31:25 rest got hired into maemo :> Aug 31 16:31:45 Stskeeps: not really, i'm not even counting people who get paid Aug 31 16:31:51 as an aside, DawnFoster: http://meego.com/about doesn't mention community Aug 31 16:32:04 I'm going to completely revamp the community section of the website with better definitions, details by audience, etc. Aug 31 16:32:19 cool Aug 31 16:32:27 lbt: thanks, I'll take a look at the about page, too. Aug 31 16:32:31 if you need our usual nitpicking feedback, do say :) Aug 31 16:32:44 we only complain because we care :D Aug 31 16:33:28 and I'm *still* not done on the OBS / closed code bit :) but I hope I'm arguing constructively Aug 31 16:33:45 lbt: or because meego is a career direction and we don't want to see it fail? :P Aug 31 16:34:01 retirement policy ;) Aug 31 16:34:11 I need something to do in 40 years Aug 31 16:34:18 I'm in this boat along with the rest of you :) Aug 31 16:34:54 lbt: I actually think we agree on the principles and the technical implementation of community OBS Aug 31 16:35:07 *nod* not far off Aug 31 16:35:08 lbt: I think we keep talking past each other on minor nitpicky things Aug 31 16:35:18 I'm really thinking about other vendors Aug 31 16:35:23 which is why I pushed for more documentation Aug 31 16:35:38 would we rather support all meego vendors in one community? Aug 31 16:35:40 my worries is that this might be a backdoor for other vendors to have "X-specific apis" Aug 31 16:35:53 or have each go off to their own OBS Aug 31 16:36:00 Stskeeps: agreed... that's a risk Aug 31 16:36:08 lbt: also an interesting philosophical discussion Aug 31 16:36:14 OTOH if we manage it in our OBS we policify it Aug 31 16:36:33 ie MeeGo-std ... MeeGo-diverged Aug 31 16:36:42 lbt: maybe if we require that any closed apis must be on direction to inclusion into mainline meego ;) Aug 31 16:36:52 easier to police too Aug 31 16:37:14 why? Aug 31 16:37:26 MeeGo is a baseline for commercial vendors Aug 31 16:37:36 we refuse GPL3... Aug 31 16:37:40 mm Aug 31 16:37:54 we are pragmatically getting OSS culture and values into commercial realit Aug 31 16:37:56 y Aug 31 16:38:08 not ramming it down their throats Aug 31 16:38:09 i haven't made up my mind about vendor specific apis but an example of how bad it can get can be seen with maemo.. Aug 31 16:38:27 where they lost their flexibility to move apps easily to something like meego Aug 31 16:38:34 yeah... and we want to provide a good place for vendors to see other vendors *doing it right* Aug 31 16:38:45 vendors will be part of the community too Aug 31 16:38:49 some will be arrogant Aug 31 16:38:56 lbt: i think there's room for 'API extras'.. Aug 31 16:39:04 meego surrounds... Aug 31 16:39:10 like, staging area for community (vendors) where they can post apis Aug 31 16:39:19 for possible merging into meego later Aug 31 16:39:20 remember? Aug 31 16:39:26 yes... a staging concept Aug 31 16:39:30 in *and* out Aug 31 16:39:37 when an API is deprecated Aug 31 16:39:42 :nod: Aug 31 16:39:54 a vendor could hold it for a while without "going rogue" Aug 31 16:40:13 there's a lot to be said for the community OBS being more relaxed Aug 31 16:40:22 and core OBS being hardline Aug 31 16:40:45 they can now point to a pragmatic solution too... which helps them stay hardline Aug 31 16:41:36 DawnFoster: so how does that sound...? sometimes I think a debate has moments of clarity... was that useful for you? Aug 31 16:42:21 I worry about the vendor stuff Aug 31 16:42:33 this a continuation from this morning's meeting? Aug 31 16:42:49 I'd rather have community obs be focused on open source code (from vendors or otherwise) Aug 31 16:43:04 proprietary stuff belongs elsewhere Aug 31 16:43:55 DawnFoster: do you support people writing OSS/GPL code on windows? Aug 31 16:44:09 lbt: of course Aug 31 16:44:23 but they can't store a copy of their windows OS on our OBS :) Aug 31 16:44:41 legally no Aug 31 16:44:51 but if there were no legal barrier Aug 31 16:44:59 just a philosophical one Aug 31 16:45:02 the open source / proprietary code split is cleaner Aug 31 16:45:07 lbt: maybe a good one over beer in dublin Aug 31 16:45:19 code "stored" (not cached) on our OBS should be open source Aug 31 16:45:35 how about code "built" ? Aug 31 16:47:59 DawnFoster: has there been any talk about how to handle APIs from other vendors? i mean, there's the requirements/roadmapping work, but like "standard recommendation for vendors how to deal with custom vendors, a guide" Aug 31 16:48:05 custom apis, i mean Aug 31 16:48:06 lbt: building is where things start to get tricky Aug 31 16:48:34 Vendors where encouraged to have their own build system downstream I thought Aug 31 16:48:37 Stskeeps: the goal is to have one MeeGo API that we support for MeeGo Aug 31 16:48:37 to my mind that's a firm "yes, code built must be open" Aug 31 16:48:44 where such code could reside Aug 31 16:48:53 slaine: yes... for building their product Aug 31 16:49:07 now... how do you build an app to run on their product? Aug 31 16:49:15 Is there docs on how to do that btw ? Aug 31 16:49:23 their "differentiated and value-added" product Aug 31 16:49:40 Stskeeps: I think it gets really confusing if we let vendors push other APIs on our infrastructure Aug 31 16:49:48 You get access to their community obs ? Aug 31 16:50:04 lbt: this is where compliance comes in Aug 31 16:50:09 nod Aug 31 16:50:12 slaine: so now, as a vendor, I need to support my own OBS? Aug 31 16:50:13 I'd agree with that Aug 31 16:50:26 DawnFoster: I'll not disagree about compliance Aug 31 16:50:39 lbt, yes, if your expecting people to link against non-open code for app dev Aug 31 16:50:43 I'm not proposing vendor divergence Aug 31 16:50:46 if the vendor's code is compliant, you should be able to build on the community obs against open source meego, and your app will run on any meego Aug 31 16:50:47 on an open platform Aug 31 16:50:58 we hit this kind of issue lately. it was solved by providing binary, not source. Aug 31 16:51:00 notice that MeeGo APIs are a minimum Aug 31 16:51:18 nothing stops a vendor shipping a 100% compliant API Aug 31 16:51:25 with added APIs Aug 31 16:51:29 that's compliant Aug 31 16:51:50 now, any app that targets those apis, isn't a meego compliant app Aug 31 16:51:57 correct Aug 31 16:52:07 they're not part of the meego reference api's Aug 31 16:52:14 even if it comes in 2 flavours, meego-compliant and meego-plus Aug 31 16:52:25 it wouldn't be meego-plus Aug 31 16:52:33 it'd vendor-addon Aug 31 16:52:48 if it isn't meego compliant, it won't be meego anything Aug 31 16:52:51 badd phrase Aug 31 16:53:00 they can call it bob if they want, but not meego :) Aug 31 16:53:10 who's they? Aug 31 16:53:19 the vendor produced a meego product Aug 31 16:53:23 $vendor Aug 31 16:53:29 yes Aug 31 16:53:43 the app developer coding against vendor specific api's didn't Aug 31 16:53:48 but me, as a GPL app writer, I can't write an OSS app to target $vendor's MeeGo platform? Aug 31 16:54:06 sure you can Aug 31 16:54:20 but not on the MeeGo community OBS Aug 31 16:54:20 just don't use their non-oss api's, use the meego recommended one Aug 31 16:54:46 then you have a meego complaint app that can work on any meego compliant device Aug 31 16:54:55 including $vendors Aug 31 16:54:57 (note, I'm not taking a position here... exploring the implications) Aug 31 16:55:07 slaine: so... Aug 31 16:55:11 I don't want that Aug 31 16:55:22 just like I want a GPL app that runs on windows Aug 31 16:55:32 it's not going to be simple i afraid Aug 31 16:56:07 ok, well develop your gpl app on windows using the vendor's api's, don't develope it on the meego obs Aug 31 16:56:47 What exactly are the API's that are closed from Maemo that are causing all this discussion anyway >? Aug 31 16:57:05 theoretical Aug 31 16:57:12 lbt: you don't need windows to build apps that run on windows, what is your point? Aug 31 16:57:20 lets say acceleromter adn *pretend* they're not in core Aug 31 16:57:27 location? Aug 31 16:57:37 sx0n: that would be another Aug 31 16:58:02 ali1234: show me the GPL headers Aug 31 16:58:11 * arjan wonders if amaya is around Aug 31 16:59:03 arjan: think work day is over, anything i can help with? Aug 31 16:59:56 hmmm DawnFoster, so if a vendor extends MeeGo on their compliant product but provides OSS implementation of the extension... *then* it's OK to target MeeGo-addon? Aug 31 17:00:39 so targetting extra APIs is OK if they're OSS even if they're not in MeeGo? Aug 31 17:01:01 slaine, sx0n.... how about a cell-carrier micropayment API? Aug 31 17:01:05 lbt: http://www.mingw.org/license i'm not an expert, you'll have to tell me if that is GPL compatible or not Aug 31 17:01:26 Even then, I'd argue that the vendor should push those extensions upstreams (to meego-extras) Aug 31 17:01:37 ali1234: don't care.... I don't do windows. This is a conceptual debate. You can't prove a negative. Aug 31 17:01:51 lbt: i'm not trying to. i'm asking you what your point is? Aug 31 17:01:55 slaine: and that's where the real world bites you Aug 31 17:02:03 because ? Aug 31 17:02:31 * slaine notes that the real world bites regardless, you just have to get on with it Aug 31 17:02:32 slaine: 'cos vodaphone/visa aren't pushing their API to meego Aug 31 17:02:47 Then your app won't be meego compliant Aug 31 17:02:49 Stskeeps: I have some issues with the n900 kernel biting the x86 kernel Aug 31 17:02:55 need an n900 kernel person to help take a look Aug 31 17:03:01 (preferably someone who works at nokia) Aug 31 17:03:11 (since it seems to be in a nokia funded driver) Aug 31 17:03:18 :) Aug 31 17:03:26 slaine: yes... Aug 31 17:03:31 I never said it would be Aug 31 17:03:56 Well, how can you expect to use and publish on a meego community obs if you're writing against code that doesn't belong in meego Aug 31 17:04:00 I would like to write my GPL shopping app in such a way as to allow payment to be made Aug 31 17:04:16 slaine: because my code runs on a MeeGo product Aug 31 17:04:34 the platform with the micropayment API *is* MeeGo compliant Aug 31 17:04:42 my GPL app isn't Aug 31 17:04:46 and so as a developer you made the choice to use non-meego api's for your product, so you have to manage it yourself, aka the real world bites Aug 31 17:05:00 slaine: but this isn't the FSF Aug 31 17:05:06 ? Aug 31 17:05:20 what's that got to do with anything Aug 31 17:05:21 I want to write an app that runs on a MeeGo device Aug 31 17:05:28 where do I go? Aug 31 17:05:37 "sod off" not really a good answer Aug 31 17:05:42 you go to developer.$vendor.com and download their SDK Aug 31 17:05:47 and then use it Aug 31 17:05:52 arjan, best way is to mail ameya/bugtracker and he'll get it to the right people. any specific driver? Aug 31 17:05:58 ali1234: and then publish it? Aug 31 17:06:06 on the vendor shop site? Aug 31 17:06:09 Great, we'd recommend you use MeeGo API's for your APP, that way you can push it to MeeGo-Extra's for wide distribution and packaging on the meego community OBS Aug 31 17:06:24 so why should the vendor no support the meego app store? Aug 31 17:06:42 you just made them go to the expense of supporting their own Aug 31 17:06:49 and meego diverges Aug 31 17:06:49 If they want to use code that they don't want to put open Aug 31 17:06:57 slaine: this is not the fsf Aug 31 17:07:01 apis should be extendable without need to replace/change functionality. Aug 31 17:07:08 what has the fsf got to do with this Aug 31 17:07:11 MeeGo is *designed* to be a baseline distro Aug 31 17:07:20 lbt: why should the community support proprietary APIs that are only good for a single vendor's system? Aug 31 17:07:25 it is *designed* to have closed code put on it Aug 31 17:07:26 we're talking about operating within the bounds of MeeGo's guidelines Aug 31 17:07:54 please distinguish between MeeGo core distro and the meego community Aug 31 17:08:02 the distro is fully open Aug 31 17:08:15 the community consists of us... GPL oriented devs Aug 31 17:08:16 MeeGo == distro, meego == community Aug 31 17:08:22 slaine: no Aug 31 17:08:34 MeeGo distro != MeeGo community Aug 31 17:08:44 you're missing the case Aug 31 17:08:45 lbt, i'm a bsd guy :P Aug 31 17:08:59 Stskeeps: and actually this is a pro-bsd thing Aug 31 17:09:12 lbt: are you suggesting that a program dependent on a closed source library should be hosted on a public repository geared towards the base set specified by the distro or something? Aug 31 17:09:19 yes Aug 31 17:09:27 ok, why? Aug 31 17:09:31 an OSS program Aug 31 17:09:46 irrelevant, no one but a subset of users can make use of it Aug 31 17:09:55 I worry that we're spending too much time in hypothetical discussions about the OBS Aug 31 17:09:58 * lbt wonders about facebook apps Aug 31 17:10:14 API is probably open enough Aug 31 17:10:25 I'd like to see us focus on solutions and get it implemented Aug 31 17:10:31 sorry, on a call Aug 31 17:10:34 DawnFoster: oh, we did that Aug 31 17:11:09 lbt just likes a good discussion Aug 31 17:11:13 lbt: compound the issue with the fact that a closed API may also be used on a device that disables and locks out the community repos Aug 31 17:11:13 it's healthy Aug 31 17:11:25 helps make sure we're on the right track Aug 31 17:11:36 I'm all for healthy discussion Aug 31 17:11:45 lbt, what are next steps for cbuild? Aug 31 17:11:48 slaine: it is... and I think it makes us think about some of the issues that we will face Aug 31 17:11:53 ldap Aug 31 17:11:57 Stskeeps: ldap. Aug 31 17:11:58 lots of people in the community office meeting got lost in the long discussion Aug 31 17:12:13 :nod: Aug 31 17:12:18 lbt, already impl but not setup i guess? Aug 31 17:12:19 Stskeeps: I got permission to setup an LDAP server on the cbuild infra Aug 31 17:12:23 it was also very early Aug 31 17:12:24 ldap backend would be? Aug 31 17:12:29 no... I get to do that .... Aug 31 17:12:29 I think we need to sum it all up, put together the simplest possible guidelines about what is / is not allowed and then let people start using it :) Aug 31 17:12:31 oh and you may say "this isn't the FSF" but do recall that they freaking quoted Stallman at the LFCS :) Aug 31 17:12:41 microlith: I'm a member :) Aug 31 17:12:54 :D Aug 31 17:13:16 DawnFoster: yes... and I know what guidelines to put up and some awkward questions to ask now Aug 31 17:13:47 which we'd better answer before we get serious traction or it'll hurt Aug 31 17:15:33 lo yerga Aug 31 17:15:57 hi Stskeeps :-) Aug 31 17:16:06 and all Aug 31 17:16:19 hahah Aug 31 17:16:26 how's it going? Aug 31 17:16:37 "hello, I'm not a sale person of religious" << always a good way to start a convo Aug 31 17:16:43 *or Aug 31 17:18:20 Stskeeps, fine, ending the summer session but looking ahead to the future ;-) Aug 31 17:18:38 right, commute time Aug 31 17:18:43 might be online later Aug 31 17:20:10 yerga: 8 months ago i wouldnt have believed we would have a voice call on a open telephony stack on a open maemo like system.. so i classify now as the future ;) Aug 31 17:20:17 .. on a n900 Aug 31 17:22:00 is the whole stack open? I was under the impression there was a binary blob in the chain somewhere. Aug 31 17:22:00 hehe Aug 31 17:22:49 specifically, it was related to the phonet software. was that resolved? Aug 31 17:22:49 microlith: not to my knowledge. the modem firmware is closed and on another chip though Aug 31 17:22:55 microlith: yeah Aug 31 17:23:08 Stskeeps: yeah, most basebands like that are kept well isolated ;) Aug 31 17:23:12 good to hear Aug 31 17:33:21 Stskeeps, definitely! It goes progressing, but the future is always brighter. Aug 31 17:33:28 DawnFoster: +1 for mentioning the skeleton in the closet in kernel contribution guidelines.. (SGX) Aug 31 17:33:48 stskeeps - you can thank arjan Aug 31 17:33:54 I stole his text :) Aug 31 17:34:16 hehe, thanks to arjan then Aug 31 17:34:43 should save a lot of discussion in the future Aug 31 17:39:47 so has a ssc-daemon replacement for ofono been commited? Aug 31 17:40:20 ofono can power up modem itself yeah Aug 31 17:42:40 of course you know that the htc hackers beat you to it before the n900 was even released, by a couple of years... right? Aug 31 17:45:09 ali1234: right Aug 31 17:45:28 ali1234: much respect to the htc hackers Aug 31 17:52:41 this is where i am up to with u-boot: http://imagebin.org/112164 Aug 31 17:57:34 ali1234: cool Aug 31 17:58:49 ali1234: good work Aug 31 18:28:46 hmm... nolo unmaps the onenand before handing control to the kernel Aug 31 18:29:30 that explains why i can never see it Aug 31 18:41:18 ali1234: hmm.. You are replacing nolo with u-boot? Aug 31 18:41:27 no, chainloading Aug 31 18:43:02 Hmm.. Because we have a problem with QEMU images. The N900 version.. as nolo is proprietary. So we would like to replace that in the qemu image. Aug 31 18:43:22 well you should be able to make use of what i have Aug 31 18:43:47 but i would guess a lot of stuff that nolo does (eg set up framebuffer) would have to be moved into u-boot Aug 31 18:53:53 yes... Aug 31 18:57:38 i got onenand working in qemu :) Aug 31 18:58:52 seems to work on real hw too, it didn't crash anyway Aug 31 19:38:13 what the hell, there's an eye lash in my monitor Aug 31 19:38:22 yours? Aug 31 19:38:29 I hope so Aug 31 19:38:33 it wasn't there last week Aug 31 19:43:16 there's dust in my monitor too from when apple took it apart Aug 31 19:43:39 yay apple support Aug 31 19:44:43 I sent it away once, it came back with a different list of faults Aug 31 19:46:28 did they fix the ones that made you send it for support in the first place? Aug 31 19:46:35 yes Aug 31 19:46:53 basically the FW400 port when up in smoke Aug 31 19:47:08 then they did their work Aug 31 19:47:11 stop complaining :-P Aug 31 19:47:15 well not smoke but defiantly something burnt Aug 31 19:47:44 it's been repaired so many times Aug 31 19:47:50 I'm meant to complain Aug 31 19:49:36 GAN900: bitched enough and got a new computer Aug 31 19:57:35 * CosmoHill shakes fist at netgear Aug 31 19:57:51 noo Aug 31 19:59:26 for some reason when you answer the phone the broadband drops Aug 31 19:59:37 when you answer or when it rings? Aug 31 19:59:58 latter is very common Aug 31 19:59:59 answer it Aug 31 20:00:11 margin drops when rings, cuts out when answered Aug 31 20:00:31 it took me a year of complaining to get it fixed Aug 31 20:00:42 what was it in the end? Aug 31 20:00:52 I've been disconnected twice without explaination Aug 31 20:00:55 line margins were set way too optimistically Aug 31 20:01:02 all i know was that it was to do with the exchange Aug 31 20:01:21 mine is 4dB atm Aug 31 20:01:32 now 2 :/ Aug 31 20:01:40 oh I'm gonna stab this router Aug 31 20:01:51 videotape it Aug 31 20:02:03 or filter may not be very good Aug 31 20:02:09 try replacing it Aug 31 20:03:47 hmm, netgear router for £40 Aug 31 20:03:57 cheap, but shame it's a netgear Aug 31 20:04:48 is it an ADSL modem too? Aug 31 20:05:09 actually yes Aug 31 20:05:50 do you have a frequency splitter installed? Aug 31 20:06:13 yes Aug 31 20:06:20 one for phone / router, one for digibox Aug 31 20:06:20 whats the frequency Cosmo Aug 31 20:06:36 that might be defective. See if you can get a different one. Aug 31 20:06:49 they usually bundle two, or you can get from a friend or something. Aug 31 20:06:50 oo, 6dB now Aug 31 20:07:01 6 dB SNR? Aug 31 20:07:13 yes Aug 31 20:07:15 back to 2 Aug 31 20:07:19 *4 Aug 31 20:07:20 that doesn't look like a lot Aug 31 20:07:39 thiago_home: I long for the day when I see double figures Aug 31 20:07:50 really, try another splitter Aug 31 20:08:01 i have mmc driver working in u-boot :) Aug 31 20:08:08 if it's not the splitter, then you have bad wiring Aug 31 20:08:29 or the headend sends noise in the ADSL frequency range, but then there's nothing you can do about that Aug 31 20:10:35 ideally I'd like to plug my router into the test port and see how it goes Aug 31 20:10:44 but we don't have a master socket, we have a connector block Aug 31 20:11:19 one reason I don't trust maplins is cos I'm looking at their pics of products. same product. two totally different pics Aug 31 20:13:52 thanks for the tips guys Aug 31 20:16:37 check it out: http://imagebin.org/112186 Aug 31 20:17:19 yay Aug 31 20:17:22 kudos Aug 31 20:17:40 could you not use the flash next time? Aug 31 20:17:57 sorry, picture was taken with nokia 5800 Aug 31 20:18:12 nice finger print btw Aug 31 20:18:30 it's either washed out like that, or too dark to even see anything Aug 31 20:19:14 anyway, if i stick maemo kernel on there, it should be able to boot it, in theory Aug 31 20:19:31 also note than onenand doesn't work properly, i don't know why Aug 31 20:19:57 size is totally wrong... but sd card size is wrong too (its a 8GB) Aug 31 20:20:26 it didn't error out though, so i have no idea Aug 31 20:20:33 it must have read a correct manufacturer ID Aug 31 20:20:40 or it wouldn't work at all Aug 31 20:23:04 onenand support may be unecessary anyway Aug 31 20:23:37 i think it should be possible to just cat zImage >> u-boot.bin and then just jump directly to kernel entry from u-boot Aug 31 20:24:06 or boot from sd card if some button is held Aug 31 20:24:15 I like the idea you buy shiny things and then take a soldering iron to them Aug 31 20:24:29 soldering iron? Aug 31 20:24:39 i didn't solder anything to my n900 (yet) Aug 31 20:30:59 i mean you have a n900 just for dev work Aug 31 20:31:09 who says it's just for dev? Aug 31 20:31:10 have you ever used it to make calls? Aug 31 20:31:16 my imagination! Aug 31 20:31:17 yes, i use it as my main phone daily Aug 31 20:31:30 i put my sim into the crappy 5800 when i am hacking Aug 31 20:31:42 i couldn't use that thing regularly though Aug 31 20:32:45 * CosmoHill hangs luck_laptop a stylis Aug 31 20:44:45 nite all, sweet dreams Aug 31 21:21:52 well, seems i have to convert the zImage to a uImage before i can use it Aug 31 21:21:58 it loaded it though, that's something Aug 31 21:27:26 oh dear lord Aug 31 21:27:33 4chan made it onto the bcc Aug 31 21:27:35 bbc* Aug 31 21:28:26 CosmoHill, for the cat woman thing, or for the uploading dodgy material to youtube thing? Aug 31 21:28:36 or any number of other articles where they get mentioned on the bbc Aug 31 21:28:48 car woman this time Aug 31 21:29:11 cat woman. was I the only one who laughed when they saw the video (obviously I'm glad the cat was ok in th end) Aug 31 21:30:28 * Milhouse thinks maybe he was the only who laughed... oops. :) Aug 31 21:30:48 s/only/only one/g Aug 31 21:30:48 Milhouse meant: cat woman. was I the only one one who laughed when they saw the video (obviously I'm glad the cat was ok in th end) Aug 31 21:32:33 Milhouse, i laughed when I saw the cat put the woman in the bin fake video Aug 31 21:33:00 but was mortified when I saw woman put the cat in Aug 31 21:33:04 me to Aug 31 21:33:05 * lcuk has cats of his own Aug 31 21:33:05 I was :oi Aug 31 21:33:08 but in real life Aug 31 21:33:15 haven't seen the fake video - just the legit one. it wasn't really a lol, more of a "feck me!" Aug 31 21:33:23 I don't have cats but my two best friends have enough for me Aug 31 21:35:22 just wondering, do we now have a MeeGo Joggler image for download with EMGD built-in? Aug 31 21:35:40 Or is there still problems distributing anything with EMGD? Aug 31 21:35:47 the latter I think Aug 31 21:35:52 bugger. Aug 31 21:36:34 I hate Imagination Technologies - why does anyone use their sh1t? Aug 31 21:37:10 Particularly in any project related to open source. Aug 31 21:37:45 Milhouse, do you see a realistic alternative for 3d? Aug 31 21:39:07 i would rather having a poorly maintained and documented closed driver giving access to silicon than leave the silicon idle Aug 31 21:39:09 Stock ARM cores aren't so bad... probably not in the same league as PowerVR but given they seem to be such a problem I'd trade performance for source code. If ARM got a few more design wins I'm pretty sure Imagination would think again. Aug 31 21:39:27 When I say "stock ARM cores" I mean the current ARM GPUs Aug 31 21:39:37 Mali Aug 31 21:39:44 cool, hold on then, lemme swap graphics card on my n900 Aug 31 21:40:00 now now, obviously I'm not talking about current hardware. :) Aug 31 21:40:38 :) Aug 31 21:40:53 But this continued PowerVR nonsense is just ridiculous Aug 31 21:41:13 Milhouse, do you see a realistic alternative for 3d? Aug 31 21:41:22 ask the user to get out and push? Aug 31 21:41:26 s/push/draw by hand/ Aug 31 21:41:28 timeless_mbp meant: ask the user to get out and draw by hand? Aug 31 21:41:40 timeless_mbp, already been there, done that, got the tshirt ;) Aug 31 21:41:41 Mali > PowerVR :-) Aug 31 21:41:49 touche Aug 31 21:42:08 Milhouse: I agree with you Aug 31 21:42:11 another way of looking at it is "stop patronising the user with flashy graphics on top of buggy software" Aug 31 21:42:12 mlfoster: ping Aug 31 21:42:15 everyone complains about the driver and SGX Aug 31 21:42:18 DawnFoster: ping Aug 31 21:42:18 yet it keeps being sold Aug 31 21:42:33 thiago: amusingly, i met a guy over the weekend who actually works on the driver Aug 31 21:42:39 hey timeless Aug 31 21:42:40 from the supplier side Aug 31 21:42:46 I know people who have worked on the driver Aug 31 21:42:47 he complained about how we were such awful customers Aug 31 21:42:54 and as Nokia, we have put some pressure on them to improve the driver Aug 31 21:43:09 … that it works for everyone else … that they have no idea what we're doing to cause it so much grief Aug 31 21:43:10 13 ms for a swap-buffers is stupid Aug 31 21:43:13 it was really amusing :) Aug 31 21:43:16 PowerVR seems to be a cluster fuck - nobody is happy! Aug 31 21:43:22 Milhouse: not true! Aug 31 21:43:27 that leaves 3 ms for preparing the frame if you want 60 Hz Aug 31 21:43:27 everyone is happy to complain about it! Aug 31 21:43:34 *cough*no swearing *cough* Aug 31 21:43:41 (Sorry) Aug 31 21:43:50 thanks CosmoHill :) Aug 31 21:46:16 s'alright Aug 31 21:46:17 thiago_home, Milhouse - dali agreed Aug 31 21:46:33 but that doesnt mean it can jump Aug 31 21:46:40 for all existing hw Aug 31 21:47:01 is it a discrete chip or like the powervr with different name Aug 31 21:47:08 ie another core on the arm itself Aug 31 21:47:47 damn Aug 31 21:48:32 * lcuk cant even type today Aug 31 21:49:00 I can type. can't spell tho >.< Aug 31 21:49:04 you can probably find some info on ti.com Aug 31 21:49:13 architectural diagrams of OMAP3430 Aug 31 21:50:02 lcuk: it's built in to the omap chip Aug 31 21:50:29 Hi #meego Aug 31 21:50:40 ali1234, that will be good then, looking at a demo of it Aug 31 21:50:42 http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/mali-graphics-hardware/index.php Aug 31 21:50:50 thiago_home: you know how I've been bitching about my router. It's managed to keep the same IP address which is good for my server Aug 31 21:51:15 yeah Aug 31 21:51:22 I've used every .raw and kernel image combo from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php on the N900 using MMS without any success. Aug 31 21:52:27 the current error I'm getting with meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35-11.2-n900 and meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-mmcblk0p.raw is a kernel panic: "No init found" Aug 31 21:52:46 I checked the SD card, and there's an init executible in /bin Aug 31 21:53:15 it's like my SNR is inversely proportionate to the weather Aug 31 21:53:21 I've tried two different SD card vendors Aug 31 21:53:41 Kingston 4GB and Sandisk 16GB Aug 31 21:53:51 CosmoHill: known to happen. The weather affects the wiring. Aug 31 21:54:06 CosmoHill: I used to have problems with my cable modem, that it lost sync when it rained Aug 31 21:54:14 If my questions are noise, plese direct me to the proper forum. Aug 31 21:54:16 "lovey weather today, now go outside" Aug 31 21:54:20 lcuk/ali1234: Yep, TI is the problem since OMAP has PowerVR built-in... Nokia would probably need an "open source" friendly version of OMAP in order to break this cycle of PowerVR nonsense Aug 31 21:54:30 bennry: the back cover is on? (though iirc the panic message would be different) Aug 31 21:54:31 bennry: no you're in the right place Aug 31 21:54:34 Or Nokia go elsewhere to source their ARM SoCs Aug 31 21:54:46 As for Intel choosing PowerVR... the mind boggles. Aug 31 21:54:56 @aard - back cover is on Aug 31 21:55:01 Milhouse: yeah Aug 31 21:55:03 Milhouse: it could be worse, they could use QSD with it's ATI graphics and "everything is done by the radio core" architecture Aug 31 21:55:04 Milhouse, technically there are ways round even the powervr, but it involves going off and changing whole way graphics are done Aug 31 21:55:07 CosmoHill - good. Aug 31 21:55:10 though some of the Atoms have OpenGL 1.x Aug 31 21:55:14 I don't know which one is worse... Aug 31 21:55:25 do in process losing important compatability Aug 31 21:55:29 so Aug 31 21:56:04 bennry: I have to admit that I never tried those images, and my test-hardware is at work Aug 31 21:56:42 you might want to try in #meego-arm, though. with best changes of getting good answers during working hours in eest Aug 31 21:57:00 lcuk: jumping through hoops is not the answer... open source friendly hardware suppliers is the solution. Existing hardware such as the N900 and Joggler are what they are, but future MeeGo hardware must avoid this problem at all costs otherwise they're no better than closed source solutions. Aug 31 21:57:11 Aard: What would recommend? I'm trying to get Meego to boot on the N900. I've tried and failed withi all of the .ks files, and just finished trying with all of the .raw and MMS boot Aug 31 21:57:36 bennry: I create my own images, which works for me Aug 31 21:57:39 Aard: I'm not sure I want to flash the device. Aug 31 21:57:48 Aard: Ok. Using the ks files and image-creator? Aug 31 21:57:59 you don't need to flash the device (though it's handy to flash the kernel image if you use it often) Aug 31 21:58:02 yes Aug 31 21:58:09 well, variation of the image files Aug 31 21:58:43 Milhouse: that's a worthy goal, but not always possible Aug 31 21:58:48 Aard: I'll try again. Aug 31 21:58:54 thanks Aug 31 21:59:07 I'm using the image files from git (git://gitorious.org/meego-os-base/image-configurations.git). need to fill in the nokia proprietary url from one of the closed ks files Aug 31 21:59:08 Milhouse: the PowerVR is a good example: the IP belongs to a separate company, so even OSS-friendly companies like Nokia and Intel can't release the source code Aug 31 21:59:28 thiago: Sure... but it's worth trying at least. :) What good is there developing a whizzy open source OS when you can't even distribute a usable video driver? Aug 31 21:59:28 Milhouse, its something a lot of people are actively seeking also Aug 31 21:59:36 lcuk: Good to hear. :) Aug 31 21:59:40 Milhouse: if you're shipping tens of millions of units, the difference between a PowerVR-enabled device and something more OSS-friendly can be significant Aug 31 22:00:03 the good is that it should work on OSS-friendly HW Aug 31 22:00:03 thiago: Yes, but that can apply both ways Aug 31 22:00:12 but that doesn't mean all companies must use OSS-friendly HW only Aug 31 22:00:57 Milhouse, realistically hardware has much longer cycles than the serious push (at least in mobile space) to open source the drivers has been. Aug 31 22:00:57 thiago: The open source friendly hardware is likely to have active support for much longer than a device for which nobody can ship an updated video driver. Aug 31 22:00:57 MeeGo is OSS only. Meaning that it must work with a fully open stack. Aug 31 22:01:03 hell, even in desktop world its still there Aug 31 22:01:11 now, if someone ships a device that has non-OSS components, it's their problem. Aug 31 22:01:24 as long as they don't do anything that would invalidate the MeeGo brand certification Aug 31 22:01:28 bennry: and, as I said, try #meego-arm. people from the n900 adaption team should show up in about 9 hours there Aug 31 22:01:48 We've had this discussion before, and GAN900 was in favour of simply rejecting non-OSS-friendly HW Aug 31 22:02:19 Milhouse: when you're shipping tens of millions of units, you have a support contract with the driver vendor Aug 31 22:02:21 I have a feeling GAN900 would reject his own grandmother some days Aug 31 22:02:27 Aard - Ha...ok. I'll be more timely later this week. I have a contact at Nokia but who isn't around today. Thanks again, I'll keep chugging along. I may have some recommendations on documentation updates Aug 31 22:02:43 Huh? Aug 31 22:02:45 Aard: And with recommendations come edits :) Aug 31 22:02:58 GeneralAntilles, my bit was tongue in cheek :P Aug 31 22:03:00 thiago: Fine, do ARM not support their drivers? Aug 31 22:03:05 bennry: well, quite a few nokians are around in the evening as well, but the changes are better during our working hours ;) Aug 31 22:03:11 people use closed source drivers for two reasons: 1) they have no choice, or 2) it doesn't matter that it's closed Aug 31 22:03:14 sometimes 1 and 2 together Aug 31 22:03:26 2 is the usual Aug 31 22:03:27 in the case of large shipments, it's most likely (2) Aug 31 22:03:28 bah, s/changes/chances/ Aug 31 22:03:48 technically even for software, closed doesn't *matter* its the support issue that counts. Aug 31 22:03:55 so, yeah, the N900 has SGX and PowerVR. But Nokia has a contract with Imagination. Aug 31 22:04:03 and Imagination does fix and improve the drivers on our request. Aug 31 22:04:06 * lcuk nods Aug 31 22:04:30 I'm sympathetic to the expediency argument, but closed drivers are becoming more of a problem and it's only going to become worse as the situation with MeeGo evolves. Aug 31 22:04:31 it's unfortunate that others can't benefit that easily from this relationship, I agree Aug 31 22:04:33 thiago_home: currently both hardware platforms use non-oss graphic drivers, unfortunately Aug 31 22:04:45 but the choice for OMAP3430 was way back, and it's also economically-driven Aug 31 22:05:00 Milhouse: can you contribute 1billion eur including open source hardware and software? Aug 31 22:05:06 (both handset-platforms, of course. I'm not involved in netbook-stuff) Aug 31 22:05:21 something which enables vendors to produce competitively priced hardware? Aug 31 22:05:25 (tomorrow) Aug 31 22:05:28 Aard: netbook is only slightly better because right now only Intel graphics chips work Aug 31 22:05:29 timeless: I've just checked my piggy bank and that's a negatory Aug 31 22:05:36 Milhouse: too bad Aug 31 22:05:40 it'd be a good donation Aug 31 22:05:45 you might even get a tax write off Aug 31 22:05:52 timeless: 50p and a couple of washers, that any good? Aug 31 22:05:55 it's probably not hard to get MeeGo to work on NVidia-powered netbooks, with the NVidia blob Aug 31 22:06:20 Milhouse: sorry? Aug 31 22:06:28 thiago_home: packaging other drivers is quite easy (at least as long as you're going for the xorg opensource drivers), and shouldn't be too hard with that binary crap stuff Aug 31 22:06:30 thiago: donations Aug 31 22:06:45 Aard: hard? No Aug 31 22:07:02 Aard: do we want to support closed? That's a different question. And that's a No too. Aug 31 22:07:15 Millhouse, do you have mic2 build environment? Aug 31 22:07:16 MeeGo wants to be open. Wants to force HW makers to be open. Aug 31 22:07:21 that's why I mentioned the open xorg drivers in the first sentence Aug 31 22:07:40 if a company (like Nokia) needs/wants to use HW without open components, the burden is on them to integrate that Aug 31 22:07:46 I personally have never bought an nvidia card because I don't want to support that closed source crap (same for ati) Aug 31 22:07:48 I can see that for the time being there is little choice but to use PowerVR/OMAP/Whatever, but it would be nice to know that decisions are being made (or at least thought about) to use something more "open" or friendly on future MeeGo (or even Symbian) devices. Aug 31 22:07:51 it could be hard, clutter or Qt issues can be exposed using nvidia closed drivers (you know that if you already tried Moblin/MeeGo with nvidia drivers) Aug 31 22:08:31 Milhouse: MeeGo.com (as the OSS project) decisions are being made for OSS's benefit Aug 31 22:08:51 Milhouse: I can't tell you whether Nokia is planning on continuing with OMAP3, switching to something equally closed, or going open Aug 31 22:09:14 even if I could tell you, there's little we can do about this, since the HW costs are still an issue Aug 31 22:09:24 thiago_home: for handset you currently don't really have much options about going open for graphics hardware. Aug 31 22:09:49 whilst we are on the subject, does the aava device have powervr? Aug 31 22:09:57 if TI say they make an X price for OMAP3, and that is less than what STE charges for something with Mali, what do you think the decision will be? Aug 31 22:10:28 lcuk: I can look the specs up tomorrow, but I think it's SGX yes Aug 31 22:10:40 * lcuk nods Aug 31 22:11:05 there are other considerations too Aug 31 22:11:10 lcuk: it's branded as intel gma something, but it's thirdparty Aug 31 22:11:34 is the HW power-efficient? Does it have the latest cool feature? (1080p decoding, HDMI output, whatever) Aug 31 22:11:40 I'm new to this project and am trying to load the latest release to the N900, Any pointers would be appreciated, like where to start....I've got the SDK loaded and have done a QT app, now I need to load an image to my phone Aug 31 22:12:00 possomfat: the latest release is PR1.2 of the N900. Aug 31 22:12:20 thiago: I know I know... it's just so frustrating to see so much wasted time and effort by people trying to get the drivers to work with this hardware. Aug 31 22:12:21 Where is it? How do I download it? Aug 31 22:13:01 thiago: as for Mali capabilities, they look up to snuff for a mobile device, certainly. As for cost and whether it's cheaper than PowerVR, I've no idea. Aug 31 22:13:15 possomfat: well, if you have PR1.1, the Application Manager tool should have asked you to upgrade a long time ago Aug 31 22:13:25 possomfat: if you have PR1.0, you need to download the image and reflash the device Aug 31 22:13:37 thiago_home, I think he meant the meego handset image. Aug 31 22:13:44 oh Aug 31 22:13:46 not maemo pr1.2 ;) Aug 31 22:13:46 oops :-) Aug 31 22:14:02 lcuk: just checked, iirc it's branded as "gma 600", which is a powervr core Aug 31 22:14:07 you know, that makes a lot more sense now Aug 31 22:14:08 I had to check which chan I was in then :P Aug 31 22:14:59 possomfat, http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC Aug 31 22:15:08 thanks Aug 31 22:15:16 those instructions are generic steps to getting meego handset onto a memory card and booting it Aug 31 22:15:33 I've reviewed that Aug 31 22:15:58 I was trying to do the usb sfroot way Aug 31 22:15:59 and you want to go a little further..? Aug 31 22:16:15 possomfat: hi again! Aug 31 22:16:37 Kindly avoid speaking for me, thanks! :P Aug 31 22:16:42 possomfat, eek, I had a snag of my own trying it (my memory card was not big enough) Aug 31 22:16:43 possomfat: also keep in mind that this is a very early developer version of MeeGo :) Aug 31 22:16:48 I guess my big conceptual issue is what image for the N900 handset do I down load and Aug 31 22:16:53 Hi Dawn Aug 31 22:17:21 possomfat, GeneralAntilles just offered to help if you PM him :P Aug 31 22:17:30 What Image do I download and how do I load it to the phone? Aug 31 22:17:53 hold on ill get the filename Aug 31 22:18:02 i cannot give a direct link because you need the eula bit Aug 31 22:18:05 Do I download the image to my meego root or the native linx dev box to load to the phone Aug 31 22:18:28 lcuk: remove that iirc above, it's the gma600. Aug 31 22:19:24 possomfat, you download it first to your computer Aug 31 22:19:25 http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php Aug 31 22:19:28 and its on there Aug 31 22:19:43 but my god that page is just a jumble of numbers and letters Aug 31 22:20:25 I take GeneralAntilles Help, just don't know how to PM him :P Aug 31 22:20:26 meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.16.20100824.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 i believe! Aug 31 22:20:39 possomfat, thats probably a good thing Aug 31 22:20:42 Downloading now Aug 31 22:20:50 :) Aug 31 22:21:22 lcuk: totally agree, the file naming or page formatting would help make things a lot clearer. Heck, an FTP web listing would be clearer. Aug 31 22:21:28 once you have that, the instructions should let you follow it, I tried using my n900 itself for this Aug 31 22:21:51 Lcuk, I've previously downloaded all those files and hand them on my dev box Aug 31 22:22:31 your dev box is ? windows/linux/mac/amiga/spectrum? Aug 31 22:22:45 So I guess I need the next step Aug 31 22:22:52 box is Fedora Aug 31 22:23:23 then put your hat on and follow the linux instructions Aug 31 22:23:27 Release 12 Aug 31 22:24:19 i followed the n900 direct instructions also because I couldn't find a card reader that accepted the microsd only Aug 31 22:24:22 and I dont have a shim Aug 31 22:24:49 where are the instructions on what page? Aug 31 22:25:04 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC#Linux Aug 31 22:25:10 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC#On_the_N900_itself Aug 31 22:25:15 are the 2 I read Aug 31 22:25:20 I skipped the Windows one ;) Aug 31 22:25:22 OK, putting my hat on, thanks for the help Aug 31 22:25:27 \o have fun Aug 31 22:37:59 yawn Aug 31 22:38:10 snap Aug 31 22:38:22 crackle Aug 31 22:39:37 do something else, I wanna see if someone else times ou Aug 31 22:40:11 * lbt gesticulates Aug 31 22:40:28 nope... it's broken Aug 31 22:42:24 i got u-boot to load a uImage and boot it succesfully Aug 31 22:42:32 but then the board just hangs Aug 31 22:45:15 does the n900 kernel have the command line built in? Aug 31 22:51:14 Aard: Pardon my ignorance, but could you lead me to instructions on how to build from Git + Propritery.ks? Aug 31 22:51:50 bennry: I have no idea if there are any instructions Aug 31 22:52:49 basically, take the handset/handset-armv7l-n900.ks, fill in the pathnames to the repositories (you can get the url to the propriatery nokia stuff from the kickstart from tablet-dev), and build it Aug 31 22:54:25 if you want bleeding edge you may use http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/armv7l/packages/ and http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/handset/repos/armv7l/packages/ Aug 31 22:54:52 if not replace the daily by the release (1.0.90.1.20100831.1 is the most recent) Aug 31 22:54:54 lcuk: I must be real dumb, Because when I read the two sections you linked to they make very little sense - I've read them before Aug 31 22:55:56 ok Aug 31 22:56:00 aard: thanks. Aug 31 22:56:59 I just want to load the N900 Phone with the latest image which I have downloaded to my dev system. I'm Running Linux and dont have a microSD. I want to load it through the USB mounting the fsroot that way so I don't kill the OS it was shipped with Aug 31 22:57:27 possomfat, the n900 instructions made most sense to me, I am strongly technophobic myself so all the various flags and settings worry me Aug 31 22:57:29 possomfat: you need a micro sd Aug 31 22:57:37 BUT having said that, lots of people have managed it Aug 31 22:57:43 which bit are you specifically blocking on Aug 31 22:58:22 possomfat, Aard is right there, you end up copying the whole big file onto your removable MicroSD card Aug 31 22:58:27 then you put it in your N900 Aug 31 22:58:39 the usb-load is just for the kernel, not the main os-image Aug 31 22:58:45 and run the flasher to replace only a very small part of the maemo system used for booting Aug 31 22:58:55 I thought there was a way to do the USB Aug 31 22:59:02 which even restores itself after you reboot Aug 31 22:59:04 Am I mistaken Aug 31 22:59:06 possomfat: only for the kernel. Aug 31 22:59:10 possomfat, you need flash for a portion of it Aug 31 22:59:24 you can chose to either flash the kernel, or just load it to memory Aug 31 22:59:28 but most heavy work is done on that 1cm little microsd card plugged in elsewhere Aug 31 22:59:38 OK, So I must have a micro SD to load the image with out nuking the original OS, Aug 31 23:00:13 Is that correct, that is my only option? Aug 31 23:00:28 yes Aug 31 23:01:00 Once I have the micro SD card I load it from my computer to a micro SD card reader other than the one on the N900. Aug 31 23:01:19 Then I just transfer the SD card to the N900, is this right Aug 31 23:01:19 yes Aug 31 23:01:23 yes Aug 31 23:01:31 then plug in n900 using usb and do the little kernel bit Aug 31 23:01:42 funny, I always seem to overcomplicate things Aug 31 23:02:14 magic buttons Aug 31 23:02:19 Do you know a good micro SD card reader that works with Fedora, guess I need to go buy one Aug 31 23:02:35 about everyone will do Aug 31 23:02:39 technically, under normal circumstanes, I use my N900 as a card reader.. Aug 31 23:03:00 but this fails for this :P Aug 31 23:03:05 i am going \o gnite Aug 31 23:03:10 sd card readers nowadays usually are just usb mass storage devices Aug 31 23:03:19 Thanks for the help! Aug 31 23:04:26 OK, I'll go get when and then continue, thanks, Good thing the phone plugs into the USB and I can't even use it, SD just easier at first I guess:) Aug 31 23:15:31 Hi Everyone Aug 31 23:15:48 hello, Wingzero. Aug 31 23:16:01 I have a problem with Meego Aug 31 23:16:13 I was hoping to get it working on a beagleboard Aug 31 23:16:59 I have followed the instructions here http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_on_Beagleboard_from_scratch, but when I boot it it seems it takes forever for it to boot the kernel Aug 31 23:17:16 Right now the serial port reads ## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 80300000 ... Aug 31 23:17:16 Image Name: Linux-2.6.35.4-x1 Aug 31 23:17:16 Image Type: ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed) Aug 31 23:17:16 Data Size: 4645008 Bytes = 4.4 MB Aug 31 23:17:16 Load Address: 80008000 Aug 31 23:17:16 Entry Point: 80008000 Aug 31 23:17:16 Verifying Checksum ... OK Aug 31 23:17:17 Loading Kernel Image ... OK Aug 31 23:17:18 OK Aug 31 23:17:19 Starting kernel ... Aug 31 23:17:19 Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel. Aug 31 23:17:47 Wingzero: use pastebin Aug 31 23:17:48 pastebin? Aug 31 23:17:58 * CosmoHill high fives asj Aug 31 23:18:06 hey that's some u-boot output Aug 31 23:18:26 i'm at the same point Aug 31 23:18:30 but with n900 Aug 31 23:19:40 generally how long does it take for Meego to boot? Aug 31 23:22:46 Whats odd, is that the screen on beagleboard turns off :( and the serial line doesn't say anything Aug 31 23:30:30 I guess I have to leave it alone for couple of min or hours :( Aug 31 23:44:24 Wingzero: check bootargs in u-boot Aug 31 23:44:37 i just discovered that mine is not setting it correctly Aug 31 23:45:05 What boot args are you using? Aug 31 23:45:31 well n900 expects something like "init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6" Aug 31 23:45:54 oh Aug 31 23:45:56 hmmmm Aug 31 23:46:13 u-boot defaults to "root=/dev/ram0 rw mem=64M console=ttyS2,115200n8 initrd=0x80600000,8M ramdisk_size=8192" Aug 31 23:46:20 which ain't gonna work Aug 31 23:46:26 although it might be different for your board Aug 31 23:47:56 I see Aug 31 23:50:03 hmmm, mine seems to stops when it finds the memory card (with time of 1.5000sec) Sep 01 00:03:22 did you get it to boot? Sep 01 00:13:51 i got a different result Sep 01 00:13:59 now it touches the onenand Sep 01 00:14:07 this is in qemu though Sep 01 00:16:53 although judging from the way it maps it, it is jumping back into u-boot for some reason Sep 01 00:17:22 cyas Sep 01 00:20:12 hmmm odd Sep 01 00:20:21 ya for me it get stuck here [ 2.085174] Waiting for root device /dev/mmcblk0p2... Sep 01 00:20:41 not sure what to do Sep 01 00:20:59 put in a mmc card with rootfs on partition 2? Sep 01 00:24:32 it does have rootfs Sep 01 00:24:33 in it Sep 01 00:24:40 I have verify it with my Linux machine Sep 01 00:24:41 :( Sep 01 00:25:42 hmmmmmmmmmmm Sep 01 00:26:08 maybe this bootloader gives a different mtype... Sep 01 00:26:39 [ 2.611236] mmc0: new high speed SDHC card at address 1234 Sep 01 00:27:31 I wonder if that mmc0 should be mmc? Sep 01 00:44:13 oh men.... Sep 01 00:59:36 :( can't figure it out, it just gets stuck there Sep 01 02:39:09 well damn. mainline u-boot works *way* better than the old crufty TI version... Sep 01 02:39:43 the beagleboard boardfiles pretty much work on n900 with a few small tweaks Sep 01 02:39:55 the kernel still won't boot properly though Sep 01 02:53:54 Anyone: I have the .raw image on the micro SD card and the microSD in the 900N, Does anyone know how to boot it with the flasher? Sep 01 02:54:15 i know Sep 01 02:54:20 and i haven't even done it Sep 01 02:54:31 u rule, wanna share? Sep 01 02:54:53 what you do is you take the kernel image and do 'flasher-3.5 -k kernel.img -l -b' Sep 01 02:55:07 that will load meego kernel to RAM and execute it Sep 01 02:55:18 it won't flash it, so after reboot you get meego again Sep 01 02:55:21 on the device or on the linux dev box? Do I need the device connected to the USB? Sep 01 02:55:34 you need the device connected to usb Sep 01 02:56:05 OK, done connected to USB Sep 01 02:56:22 you have to turn off, hold u key, and plug in on usb Sep 01 02:56:25 One quick question, how does the flasher command above know to execute on the phone? Sep 01 02:56:43 then phone goes to usb flashing mode Sep 01 02:56:48 then you run the command Sep 01 02:57:13 K, what is the u key, that really small button on the long side? Sep 01 02:57:23 it's the key with 'u' written on it Sep 01 02:57:53 ON the small keyboard on the phone, the u key? Sep 01 02:57:57 yes Sep 01 02:59:36 said connected to usb mass storage mode button or PC Suite mode button, is that the screen that should be showing after the u is pressed and it gets reconnected to the usb? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Sep 01 02:59:57 2010