**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 15 02:59:57 2010
Sep 15 04:38:16 <matt_chen> Hello all, does MeeGo support 3G connection ?
Sep 15 04:39:13 <matt_chen> From carrick UI, if plug a 3G module, does MeeGo support 3G ?
Sep 15 04:40:00 <matt_chen> Anybody has an idea ?
Sep 15 07:03:38 <fabiomssilva> matt_chen: It will, It will !
Sep 15 07:08:27 <matt_chen> fbiomssilva: so it is not working now ?
Sep 15 07:10:35 <fabiomssilva> Not 100% sure. Wifi is working. but 3g not.
Sep 15 07:11:40 <matt_chen> yep, I know wifi is working good unless driver crashed. So the 3G is not available right now ?
Sep 15 07:12:21 <fabiomssilva> I will not bet on that :)
Sep 15 07:13:29 <matt_chen> hmm.....
Sep 15 07:13:29 <matt_chen> thanks ~ ;-)
Sep 15 07:28:01 <cvandonderen-off> hi
Sep 15 07:28:04 <Stskeeps> hi
Sep 15 07:28:12 <cvandonderen-off> is there an ETA on the qemu-gl VM for OpenSuSE? http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Emulator_QEMU
Sep 15 07:28:22 <cvandonderen-off> opensuse is still on ETA
Sep 15 07:28:29 <cvandonderen-off> *TBD
Sep 15 07:38:26 <lolloo> is meego out for N900?
Sep 15 07:41:27 <lolloo> is meego out for N900?
Sep 15 07:42:32 <sandst1> lolloo: you can get the latest image from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php
Sep 15 07:42:55 <lolloo> hey, thanks sandst1
Sep 15 07:43:46 <lolloo> whats that
Sep 15 07:43:50 <lolloo> wrong mate
Sep 15 07:43:58 <lolloo> am asking about meeeeego
Sep 15 07:44:18 <lolloo> is meego released for n900?
Sep 15 07:44:28 <TermanaN900> lolloo, that link is for meeeeego
Sep 15 07:44:35 <lolloo> hahaha
Sep 15 07:44:51 <lolloo> omg is it official?
Sep 15 07:45:04 <TermanaN900> lolloo, it has the weekly releases. The official 1.1 release will come in october
Sep 15 07:45:15 <lolloo> omg so nice
Sep 15 07:45:24 <TermanaN900> well, october the last time k checked the release schedule :P
Sep 15 07:45:30 <lolloo> I hope it will support Multi-boot
Sep 15 07:45:36 <TermanaN900> I checked*
Sep 15 07:46:00 <lolloo> I really nead duel boot n900
Sep 15 07:46:14 <lolloo> maemo + meego
Sep 15 07:46:28 <Surfa> most likely possible
Sep 15 07:46:42 <lolloo> with kernel image i hope so
Sep 15 07:47:51 <aladds> duel boot? Is that where the systems battle for who gets to load their kernel?
Sep 15 07:48:19 <TermanaN900> Theres several ways you can already do this with the weekly releases, but not really anything official afaik (for on the fly, you can of cause sideload the kernel with flasher if you have a computer next to you)
Sep 15 07:49:32 <lolloo> omg that would be awesome TermanaN900
Sep 15 07:59:08 <cvandonderen-off> did anybody actually test the virtio-gl module on OpenSuSE?
Sep 15 07:59:22 <cvandonderen-off> because it says it is only supported for 2.6.33 and 2.6.35
Sep 15 07:59:28 <cvandonderen-off> and suse is 2.6.31
Sep 15 08:17:26 <vlj> hi people
Sep 15 08:17:43 <vlj> meego does not handle multi screen very well
Sep 15 08:54:37 <Jaffa> Mo9ring, all
Sep 15 08:55:00 <Jaffa> lbt: Another great email, you're spot on
Sep 15 08:57:33 <lbt> somehow it feels like we're missing the hidden agenda
Sep 15 08:57:49 <Stskeeps> you're assuming there's one
Sep 15 08:58:14 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: The space argument is so obviously spurious...
Sep 15 08:58:16 <Stskeeps> while it's hard to say it feels a bit like compliance is made by people without practical experience.
Sep 15 08:58:16 <lbt> The arguments put forwards seem unreasonably week
Sep 15 08:58:20 <lbt> weak
Sep 15 08:58:41 * Jaffa imagines that some vendors perhaps don't want any repo/package install - but still be "compliant"
Sep 15 08:58:49 <lbt> I guess I assumed competence/experience and hence politics/commercial pressure
Sep 15 09:00:53 <Stskeeps> start with the package naming..
Sep 15 09:00:54 <Stskeeps> :P
Sep 15 09:01:40 <Stskeeps> so, who's drafting a proper compliance proposal? ;)
Sep 15 09:02:24 <X-Fade> A central Surrounds repo would also solve the colliding names issue. At least make it better.
Sep 15 09:02:27 * Jaffa starts paying attn to Mary McDonald
Sep 15 09:02:46 <X-Fade> Worst thing we can have is having 1M different repos.
Sep 15 09:02:51 <lbt> *nod*
Sep 15 09:03:10 <slaine> unfortunately it seems to be heading that way
Sep 15 09:03:22 <lbt> Should Surrounds be "released" and frozen?
Sep 15 09:03:29 <X-Fade> And as we are using an OBS, everything automatically gets built against newer versions etc.
Sep 15 09:03:44 <X-Fade> So breakage would be detected a lot easier.
Sep 15 09:03:57 <X-Fade> lbt: I guess -devel and stable?
Sep 15 09:04:02 <Stskeeps> lbt: maybe a higher cycle than meego releases?
Sep 15 09:04:19 <lbt> *nod*
Sep 15 09:04:35 <lbt> or somehow versioned?
Sep 15 09:04:42 <X-Fade> Or have it dynamic in :current: and stable in release versions?
Sep 15 09:04:42 <lbt> no, forget that
Sep 15 09:04:44 <Stskeeps> we all seem to be assuming that vendor devices will be updating from repo.meego.com though
Sep 15 09:04:50 <Stskeeps> which i highly doubt
Sep 15 09:05:02 <lbt> Stskeeps: updating? installing?
Sep 15 09:05:07 <Stskeeps> both
Sep 15 09:05:18 <lbt> updating I agree is unlikley
Sep 15 09:05:55 <lbt> installing from community meego.com though... I expect that to be available
Sep 15 09:06:16 <lbt> maybe not by default, but by some kind of config
Sep 15 09:07:37 <X-Fade> Yeah, I guess that from the start no product will have it enabled by default.
Sep 15 09:08:06 <X-Fade> But we provide an attactive source of apps, people will use it.
Sep 15 09:08:23 <X-Fade> s/But/But if/
Sep 15 09:08:24 <infobot> X-Fade meant: But if we provide an attactive source of apps, people will use it.
Sep 15 09:08:34 <Stskeeps> how will OCS and that stuff do things?
Sep 15 09:08:54 <X-Fade> It will just provide a view on top of a repo.
Sep 15 09:09:33 <X-Fade> It will just index all repos we support and show things based on the requested repo.
Sep 15 09:09:33 <lbt> X-Fade: it could trivially solve the dependency installation thing couldn't it?
Sep 15 09:09:51 <Stskeeps> next question..
Sep 15 09:09:54 <X-Fade> lbt: OCS is just diplay.
Sep 15 09:10:04 <Stskeeps> nm
Sep 15 09:10:04 <Stskeeps> :P
Sep 15 09:10:36 <X-Fade> With BOSS we can have multiple repo promotions if we want.
Sep 15 09:10:55 <X-Fade> So we could go for an Extras:Pure, and an Extras:ALotCooler ;)
Sep 15 09:11:15 <X-Fade> Where the Pure version only builds against pure meego.
Sep 15 09:11:20 <lbt> mmm... I'm not giving in yet :)
Sep 15 09:11:39 <lbt> I'd push it by launching the OBS as we have it now :)
Sep 15 09:11:49 <X-Fade> Yeah, that is what I'd do.
Sep 15 09:11:58 <lbt> ready for the conference .... we can bring this up in the talk
Sep 15 09:11:59 <X-Fade> Just go for it and change later if needed.
Sep 15 09:12:39 <lbt> I'd love to stand up and say "sadly if you share code with other people you can't be MeeGo compliant"
Sep 15 09:12:43 * CosmoHill has a sneezing fit that signifies that he's awake
Sep 15 09:15:14 <X-Fade> It feels a lot of people really like to talk a lot about potential issues. I'd rather *do* and change when there are real issues.
Sep 15 09:16:33 <X-Fade> This is happening for the last 5 months or so. We can keep discussing, but we can also finally deliver something ;)
Sep 15 09:17:38 <lbt> X-Fade: yeah... that's why I'm really trying to put some more time in on the infra too
Sep 15 09:19:10 <X-Fade> I'd rather have it working with a few known issues than to push it out months more.
Sep 15 09:20:08 <lbt> yes... I think LDAP and drupal import of names/credentials is enough to go live
Sep 15 09:20:36 <lbt> I have no issues with the service being a touch "flakey" during the early days.
Sep 15 09:20:39 <X-Fade> We should test with a few test accounts in the current ldap.
Sep 15 09:20:44 <lbt> *nod*
Sep 15 09:20:57 <X-Fade> And when that works, it isn't blocking on us.
Sep 15 09:20:57 <lbt> I'm hoping to set it up today
Sep 15 09:32:17 <CosmoHill> what are you two talking about?
Sep 15 09:36:11 <lcuk2> lbt i just realised the mail I appended last night went just to you (damn google reply button) should I bother sending it further or did I just end up reasserting things already posted?
Sep 15 09:39:01 <tekojo> lbt X-Fade ping mikeshaver to get data to ldap, if you need it
Sep 15 09:39:33 <X-Fade> lcuk2: I use labs, there is a reply to all plugin there.
Sep 15 09:39:41 <CosmoHill> hey tekojo
Sep 15 09:39:50 <tekojo> hi CosmoHill
Sep 15 09:40:06 <lcuk2> X-Fade, i dont like mailing lists at the best of times, but lbt got me reading that one
Sep 15 09:40:10 <lcuk2> and so I replied
Sep 15 09:40:23 <lcuk2> sometimes google replies to the ML
Sep 15 09:40:27 <CosmoHill> tekojo: are you in london too?
Sep 15 09:40:29 <lcuk2> othertimes it goes to the person
Sep 15 09:40:31 <lcuk2> its frustrating
Sep 15 09:40:41 <tekojo> CosmoHill: London? No
Sep 15 09:40:47 <X-Fade> lcuk2: That is why I reply to all by default.
Sep 15 09:41:55 <lcuk2> and now 9hours later posting it after other replies is just as frustrating
Sep 15 09:44:35 * CosmoHill ponders new soldering iron and electric de-soldering tool
Sep 15 09:45:02 <lcuk2> CosmoHill, for a one shop dealio, just walk into maplin and ask to test their devices :D
Sep 15 09:45:15 <CosmoHill> hehe
Sep 15 09:45:16 <lcuk2> desolder and resolder direct i nthe store :P
Sep 15 09:45:43 <CosmoHill> "on second thoughts, this isn't want I want" *walk out with soldered part*
Sep 15 09:45:49 <lcuk2> or better yet, find a hack lab type place nearby (arduino guys) and wander to one of the meetings
Sep 15 09:46:02 <lcuk2> they usually have that sort of stuff at each meeting
Sep 15 09:48:06 <CosmoHill> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35016 << Sale :)
Sep 15 09:48:40 <lcuk2> CosmoHill, is that 50watt PMPO or RMS?
Sep 15 09:49:12 <CosmoHill> maybe
Sep 15 09:50:43 <CosmoHill> it's basically a dimmer switch connected to a soldering iron
Sep 15 09:51:46 <aladds> they do generally have some sort of temperature sensor too
Sep 15 09:55:46 <CosmoHill> maybe I'd be more willing to buy stuff if I had a job :/
Sep 15 09:57:14 <jacekowski> get a job then
Sep 15 09:58:40 <CosmoHill> I start my final year at uni next week
Sep 15 10:01:13 <CosmoHill> maplin need to buy some more web servers -.-
Sep 15 10:01:48 <lcuk2> CosmoHill, maplin servers generally do ok
Sep 15 10:05:44 * CosmoHill wonders if he should get a foutain pen
Sep 15 10:24:53 <lcuk> re differentiation:
Sep 15 10:26:26 <lcuk> on android, where are the differentiated mapping or mail apps?
Sep 15 10:27:23 <lcuk> or did the core OS supply a good experience
Sep 15 10:27:53 <Myrtti> I love the default ones
Sep 15 10:28:01 <lcuk> meego should strive to provide the best experience so differentiation isnt needed
Sep 15 10:28:23 <Myrtti> but there is a fork of for example of the default (non-GMail) app, K9-mail or something or other
Sep 15 10:28:30 <lcuk> and if its desired we should be trying to pull vendors together to help make those reference apps the best on the platform for everyone
Sep 15 10:28:47 <lcuk> Myrtti, which provider runs with that as default?
Sep 15 10:29:05 <lcuk> or is that just a user installable alternative (important)
Sep 15 10:29:32 <Myrtti> I haven't got a clue, I've not really looked into the metaphysics of the matter.
Sep 15 10:30:43 <lcuk> i just think that meego pushing bodily for each company to invent their own wheel kinda goes against the ethos and communal barn building that would be best
Sep 15 10:30:46 <Myrtti> the bliss of having a free unlocked N1
Sep 15 10:31:03 <lcuk> well you got yours also from google directly
Sep 15 10:31:24 <lcuk> errr s/barn/city/
Sep 15 11:31:12 <slaine> disapponted to see the openpeak tablet has switched to android
Sep 15 11:33:53 <lcuk> slaine, shit happens
Sep 15 11:34:04 <lcuk> can meego handset apps run well on the netbook?
Sep 15 11:34:31 <slaine> not tried it, but I haven't seen anything to say it doesn't
Sep 15 11:34:46 <lcuk> hm
Sep 15 11:35:38 <lcuk> would they need building by individuals
Sep 15 11:35:50 <lcuk> or do we expect them to be available in the standard repo?
Sep 15 11:37:05 <slaine> I believe the latter, but that's not based on anything I can link to
Sep 15 11:37:40 <lcuk> its ok i havent got a netbook to run it on anyway
Sep 15 11:37:59 <slaine> I do, but not much in the way of time for dabbling
Sep 15 11:38:27 <lcuk> i wouldnt like to dabble, I would like to know what to get enthused about :)
Sep 15 11:38:55 <slaine> lol
Sep 15 11:39:19 <lcuk> pretty "meh" at hearing so much about reference experiences and having to wait until differentiation occurs etc
Sep 15 11:39:34 <slaine> that's what dabbling does, gives you a taste, see if it's worth getting excited over
Sep 15 11:39:58 <lcuk> slaine, the other day I was sat in a coffee shop
Sep 15 11:40:03 <lcuk> running same apps I have run for a while
Sep 15 11:40:17 <lcuk> and someone almost fell onto the next table craning his neck to peek at my screen
Sep 15 11:40:25 <slaine> lol
Sep 15 11:40:27 <lcuk> thats the sort of reaction all meego should have
Sep 15 11:40:33 <slaine> love it when that happens
Sep 15 11:40:42 <slaine> I got that on the plane on Monday
Sep 15 11:41:16 <lcuk> what were you running?
Sep 15 11:41:37 <slaine> I was playing with clutter on my Meego 1.0 netbook on a flight back from IBC, all the people on the plane had been to IBC I think.
Sep 15 11:41:48 <lcuk> ibc?
Sep 15 11:41:51 <slaine>  the people on either side of me where staring at the screen for ages while I used it
Sep 15 11:42:00 <slaine> http://www.ibc.org
Sep 15 11:42:07 <lcuk> ibc.org?
Sep 15 11:42:13 <lcuk> i am on vnc, just use words
Sep 15 11:42:26 <slaine> Digital media show
Sep 15 11:42:50 <slaine> from content creation, TV cameras, sat systems down to TV's, STB's cabling, everything
Sep 15 11:43:06 <lcuk> cool
Sep 15 11:43:20 <lcuk> what were you running on clutter that got people noticing?
Sep 15 11:43:26 <slaine> We do a lot of IPTV/VOD for patients at hospitals, so it's important to keep on top of the tech
Sep 15 11:43:27 <lcuk> ta
Sep 15 11:43:46 <slaine> Basically, I was just goofing around with some of our UI pngs
Sep 15 11:43:57 <slaine> seeing if I could mock up an animated interface for the STB
Sep 15 11:44:26 <lcuk> you got screenies?
Sep 15 11:44:30 <slaine> There was nothing particularly fancy
Sep 15 11:44:34 <slaine> Not yet
Sep 15 11:44:46 <lcuk> it never is, i filled a screen with moving stars and bacon
Sep 15 11:44:51 <lcuk> about 2 years ago
Sep 15 11:44:58 <lcuk> it was just a test of alpha blending
Sep 15 11:45:01 <lcuk> but people liked it :)
Sep 15 11:45:17 <slaine> I'm thinking it was meego, app switching and my app moving images around and having them bounce when clicked was attention grabbing
Sep 15 11:45:38 <slaine> more the first two than the later
Sep 15 11:45:44 <slowness> Kristian: why?meego-codedrop-arm-n900-closed-201003311635.ubiimg and kernel image: meego-handset-armv5tel-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.13.20100803.2-vmlinuz-2.6.35~rc6-133.2-n900 or meego-n900-open-armv7l-1.0.0.20100525.1-vmlinuz-2.6.33.3-11.2-n900. To install it I followed http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/NAND. But at the end, I've kernel panic, nothing boot and I returned to Maemo.
Sep 15 11:45:48 <lcuk> slaine, its annoying at times
Sep 15 11:45:50 <slowness> What I did wrong?
Sep 15 11:46:12 <lcuk> the liqbase stuff has something called "pysics view" i used to do it just for skecthes but its on the playground by default
Sep 15 11:46:27 <lcuk> and it lets the grid of widgets be sized and self adjust themselves
Sep 15 11:46:30 <lcuk> lovely effect
Sep 15 11:46:45 <lcuk> but frustrating when you move accidentally
Sep 15 11:46:57 <lcuk> so it needs enabling/disabling
Sep 15 11:46:58 <slaine> I've seen one or two of your demos' on youtube before, this the libqbase stuff ?
Sep 15 11:47:02 <lcuk> because people just want to click things
Sep 15 11:47:07 <lcuk> yea
Sep 15 11:47:26 <schoenemann> Hi, I've problems running the MeeGo sdk using Xephyr
Sep 15 11:47:32 <lcuk> physics view *
Sep 15 11:47:42 <lcuk> eep schoenemann
Sep 15 11:47:47 <schoenemann> I only get the Xephyr window which is black
Sep 15 11:48:18 <lcuk> did the Nokia CBD patch get into xephyr already?
Sep 15 11:48:38 <schoenemann> lcuk: how can I check that?
Sep 15 11:48:47 <lcuk> schoenemann, it was a joke, apologies
Sep 15 11:48:57 <lcuk> did anything come up on the console
Sep 15 11:49:01 <lcuk> when you started it
Sep 15 11:49:34 <lcuk> ( CBD is Nokias new screen technology for blacker than black pixels, its not a software thing )
Sep 15 11:49:34 <fabiomssilva> what is your grapics card ?
Sep 15 11:49:35 <schoenemann> lcuk: when running ./startmeego there is no output on the console
Sep 15 11:49:49 <schoenemann> fabiomssilva: it's a Intel graphics
Sep 15 11:49:57 <schoenemann> fabiomssilva: I think a i915 chip
Sep 15 11:50:23 <fabiomssilva> I was having the same problem but I have NVidia !
Sep 15 11:52:08 <lcuk> schoenemann, thats not good at all
Sep 15 11:52:28 * lcuk thinks console output is vital to diagnostics
Sep 15 11:53:58 <schoenemann> when running ./startmeego-debug there is much more
Sep 15 11:54:10 <lcuk> :D
Sep 15 11:54:17 <schoenemann> there are also some error about DBus
Sep 15 11:54:25 <lcuk> any of it say "running cool all black on black ux"
Sep 15 11:55:24 <lcuk> Myrtti, agreed about your last RT
Sep 15 11:55:35 <schoenemann> lcuk: you are right. currently I'm using the "black hole" theme ;-)
Sep 15 11:55:56 <lcuk> nice, do you have screenshots *grin*
Sep 15 11:56:27 <lcuk> which version of the sdk are you running?
Sep 15 11:56:35 <schoenemann> maybe this could be a problem: SysUidRequest::SysUidRequest(): failed to register dbus service
Sep 15 11:57:18 <schoenemann> lcuk: the one linked from the wiki pages
Sep 15 11:57:48 <schoenemann> lcuk: meego-handset-ia32-1.0.80.9.20100706.1-sdk-pre0901.raw.tar.bz2
Sep 15 11:59:03 <schoenemann> there is also a message saying: MWindow: Switching to software rendering
Sep 15 12:00:05 <lcuk> ok so you have done the export display bit I gather?
Sep 15 12:00:17 <schoenemann> lcuk:
Sep 15 12:00:19 <schoenemann> lcuk: right
Sep 15 12:00:51 <lcuk> hmm what main os is it running on?
Sep 15 12:01:05 <schoenemann> lcuk: runs on openSuSE 11.2
Sep 15 12:01:24 <schoenemann> lcuk: also added localhost to xhost list
Sep 15 12:02:03 <schoenemann> lcuk: and copied the .Xauthority file to the home directory of the chroot /root/ directory
Sep 15 12:02:05 <lcuk> that doesnt sound good then, Stskeeps would you have any hints?
Sep 15 12:02:28 <lcuk> or anyone else - thers loads of info in scrollback about what hes done/doing and tried
Sep 15 12:55:56 <Mat_Matan> Hi
Sep 15 13:27:31 * CosmoHill has a eletric desoldering tool now
Sep 15 13:27:37 <CosmoHill> I also have bobby for tomorrow :D
Sep 15 13:37:07 <MeOnTheGo> i wanted to know whether we could retrieve information related to the DEVICES REQUIRED BY THE PROCESS in running process's queue
Sep 15 13:37:28 <MeOnTheGo> by using data structure called PROCESS DESCRIPTOR
Sep 15 13:37:58 <Stskeeps> MeOnTheGo: some context please :)
Sep 15 14:18:23 <madsdk> Hi guys, I'm new to this forum and have just begun playing around with Meego (have been developing stuff for Maemo for the past couple of years though).
Sep 15 14:18:33 <Stskeeps> welcome
Sep 15 14:18:39 <Myrtti> hi
Sep 15 14:18:42 <madsdk> I have a question about installing Meego on a Dell Latitude XT2
Sep 15 14:18:54 <madsdk> Have anybody done that with success yet?
Sep 15 14:19:22 <madsdk> When I boot from the live image everything seems to work, except for the fact that I can't actually click anything :)
Sep 15 14:35:32 * CosmoHill growls at the motherboard
Sep 15 14:36:41 <madsdk> I have found that clicking does not work at all - the touch screen doesn't accept click events _and_ the mouse can't click either...
Sep 15 14:44:45 <CosmoHill> I think i've furbarred a motherboard
Sep 15 14:45:42 <lcuk> congratulations CosmoHill
Sep 15 14:45:53 <CosmoHill> it's been furbarred for a while
Sep 15 14:45:56 <lcuk> did it throw a fireworks party
Sep 15 14:46:01 <CosmoHill> nope
Sep 15 14:46:02 <Myrtti> furbar? that's a new one
Sep 15 14:46:14 <CosmoHill> erm
Sep 15 14:46:15 <Myrtti> has your cat coughed up a furball on it
Sep 15 14:46:19 <CosmoHill> fubar*
Sep 15 14:46:39 <lcuk> lol
Sep 15 14:47:19 <CosmoHill> basically two of the three joins on the motherboard PCB are not melting
Sep 15 14:47:43 <CosmoHill> so I can't remove them so I can't install the new connector
Sep 15 14:50:07 <CosmoHill> I'm just annoyed that the motherboard is fubarred because of two little pricks not come out
Sep 15 14:52:25 <CosmoHill> I knew I should have just glued the orginal in place:(
Sep 15 14:53:23 <berndhs> CosmoHill: melt the whole thing ?
Sep 15 14:53:34 <CosmoHill> ?
Sep 15 14:53:56 <berndhs> the whole motherboard, and claim warranty
Sep 15 14:54:04 <CosmoHill> it's not in warranty
Sep 15 14:54:08 <berndhs> ah
Sep 15 14:54:13 <CosmoHill> also it's from a laptop
Sep 15 14:54:31 <kyb3R> burn the laptop :)
Sep 15 14:54:40 <berndhs> so, melt it, and put it in a laptop *with* warranty :)
Sep 15 14:54:41 <CosmoHill> and what would I tell the owner?
Sep 15 14:54:48 <kyb3R> uups?
Sep 15 14:54:59 <berndhs> tell the owner it melted, and you need a new one
Sep 15 14:55:02 <CosmoHill> In a word: fu...
Sep 15 14:55:18 <CosmoHill> wait that sounds like I'm going "f you" :/
Sep 15 14:56:14 <dm8tbr> CosmoHill: melting? like solder? or what?
Sep 15 14:56:32 <CosmoHill> yeah solder. the orginal solder holding the bits onto the board isn't melting
Sep 15 14:57:29 <dm8tbr> get a better soldering iron
Sep 15 14:57:39 <dm8tbr> high power with enough thermal mass
Sep 15 14:58:07 <CosmoHill> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35016
Sep 15 14:58:07 <dm8tbr> if you keep heating the pcb with a small iron you might damage some components
Sep 15 14:58:07 <Myrtti> DawnFoster: mind if I pm?
Sep 15 14:58:10 <CosmoHill> like that one?
Sep 15 14:58:34 <DawnFoster> Myrtti: sure, no problem
Sep 15 14:58:57 <dm8tbr> I don't see the image, but 50W sounds like a start, yeah
Sep 15 14:59:33 <CosmoHill> http://images.maplin.co.uk/full/n78ar.jpg
Sep 15 14:59:52 <dm8tbr> yeah that looks OK-ish
Sep 15 15:00:10 <CosmoHill> next one is three times the price
Sep 15 15:00:22 <lcuk> CosmoHill, a soldering iron is not powerful enough unless it has jet turbines and warning signs.
Sep 15 15:00:31 <dm8tbr> not quite like a weller magnastat <3 <3   but should work for most things
Sep 15 15:00:51 <dm8tbr> a magnastat would set you back 70quid+ used though
Sep 15 15:01:16 <CosmoHill> lcuk: considering how we have warning signs for the obvious, you'd expect there to be signs on solder irons
Sep 15 15:01:17 <dm8tbr> a blow-torch is last resort
Sep 15 15:01:36 <CosmoHill> already spent £15 on the desoldering tool
Sep 15 15:01:38 <dm8tbr> CosmoHill: like 'hold from the other end'?
Sep 15 15:01:57 <CosmoHill> "do not pick nose with"
Sep 15 15:02:20 * dm8tbr looks at the red mark on his left hand...
Sep 15 15:02:36 <dm8tbr> 'do not scratch your itch with' also applies
Sep 15 15:03:15 <CosmoHill> just wondering if I want to spent another £15 for something that may already be dead
Sep 15 15:03:40 <CosmoHill> dm8tbr: this is the victim btw: http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/DSC_0039.JPG
Sep 15 15:03:51 <dm8tbr> I have no idea in what state .... ah let's take a look
Sep 15 15:04:00 <CosmoHill> before
Sep 15 15:04:21 <dm8tbr> aaaah, I see your problem
Sep 15 15:04:37 <dm8tbr> one part of the connector is soldered to the big fat ground-plane of the PCB
Sep 15 15:05:05 <dm8tbr> huuuge thermal mass, you want an really hot iron with some mass to get rid of that thing
Sep 15 15:05:26 * lcuk recalls mentionign this last nighttt
Sep 15 15:05:54 <dm8tbr> if the connector is broken anyway, then break away the plastic carefully so that you can extract the pins one by one
Sep 15 15:07:19 <dm8tbr> if that is not possible apply a huge solder blob that touches all three pins and melts the solder within them and then pull out the connector quickly and let the blob roll of the pcb _without_ it touching any components
Sep 15 15:07:33 <CosmoHill> one pin is out
Sep 15 15:07:46 <CosmoHill> wait here, I'll get a new pic
Sep 15 15:13:31 <CosmoHill> http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/solder-bottom.jpg
Sep 15 15:13:33 <CosmoHill> http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/solder-top.jpg
Sep 15 15:15:26 <GR> any suggestion how to solve this while running mic-image-creator
Sep 15 15:15:32 <GR> Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404: Not Found: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/arm/os/repodata/repomd.xml
Sep 15 15:16:07 <dm8tbr> CosmoHill: looks like you're almost done, which of the three holes still has something in it?
Sep 15 15:18:56 <CosmoHill> the two nearest the S-Video connector
Sep 15 15:19:10 <CosmoHill> the one that's clear had the connnector ripped through it :/
Sep 15 15:19:40 <CosmoHill> the big hold nearest the s-video connector is to screw the motherboard down, nothing is soldered to it
Sep 15 15:22:28 <CosmoHill> lcuk: you may have but I don't recall
Sep 15 15:22:40 <CosmoHill> I do remember it being about 1am tho
Sep 15 15:26:45 <CosmoHill> I think you're probably right about needing a hotter soldering iron since the s-video and usb shelding becomes very hot
Sep 15 15:26:55 <CosmoHill> and if they're becoming hot it means the heat is spreading
Sep 15 15:29:26 <CosmoHill> luck, dm8tbr and TSCHakeeeee, thanks very much for your help btw :)
Sep 15 15:31:34 <dm8tbr> np
Sep 15 15:32:32 <dm8tbr> now clean the holes with some desoldering pump and desoldering 'mesh'
Sep 15 15:32:41 <dm8tbr> and fit the new connector
Sep 15 15:32:55 <CosmoHill> the problem is that there are still pins in the holes
Sep 15 15:33:34 <CosmoHill> I think I need a better picture
Sep 15 15:34:08 <dm8tbr> ah, well get a large soldering iron then
Sep 15 15:43:47 <CosmoHill> http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/soldering-marked.jpg
Sep 15 15:44:04 <CosmoHill> http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/DSC_0082.JPG
Sep 15 15:44:17 <CosmoHill> the bits circled in red are the two pins
Sep 15 15:44:48 <dm8tbr> yeah, both are attached to the ground plane
Sep 15 15:45:11 <dm8tbr> you need to use a very hot iron and excessive ammounts of solder
Sep 15 15:45:12 <CosmoHill> damn
Sep 15 15:45:20 <dm8tbr> then they will just fall out ;)
Sep 15 15:45:50 <CosmoHill> how does the rest of the board look
Sep 15 15:45:53 <dm8tbr> or better an iron with large thermal mass that can heat one or both spots quick enough
Sep 15 15:46:03 <CosmoHill> the bits above the soldering spot look kinda eep
Sep 15 15:46:21 <dm8tbr> I don't see any problems
Sep 15 15:46:26 <CosmoHill> awesome
Sep 15 15:47:05 <CosmoHill> I wonder if I could use two soldering irons at once...
Sep 15 15:52:22 <CosmoHill> dm8tbr: just poked about with a DMM, it would explain why nearby parts were getting hot too
Sep 15 16:04:49 <dm8tbr> CosmoHill: please also notice the many vias this has, and it's obviously multilayer, so there is most likely a large ground layer that goes across the whole pcb
Sep 15 16:06:15 <CosmoHill> so don't apply heat directly to the ground
Sep 15 16:08:26 <dm8tbr> CosmoHill: no, apply insane ammounts of heat localized to those two spots, so that only those spots melt
Sep 15 16:08:41 <dm8tbr> be faster than the heat propagation ;)
Sep 15 16:09:16 <dm8tbr> with an small iron you'll end up slowly heating the whole board before the solder melts
Sep 15 16:09:54 <dm8tbr> bbl
Sep 15 16:10:00 <CosmoHill> should I care about low voltage and anti-static stuff?
Sep 15 16:10:19 <dm8tbr> keep things grounded
Sep 15 16:10:44 <dm8tbr> but that's for bonus points
Sep 15 16:10:58 <dm8tbr> main thing is: BIG FAT SOLDERING IRON ;-þ
Sep 15 16:12:47 <CosmoHill> I think I had my bass to loud, it feels like my head had been rattled
Sep 15 16:24:21 <CosmoHill> btw is it a good or bad thing that my new desoldering tool started smoking when it was warming up?
Sep 15 16:27:28 <sofar> I think that's normal. even new irons smoke on the first warmup
Sep 15 16:28:21 <smoku> if it was new it is normal. there is some stuff from the manufacturing process that needs to burn down
Sep 15 16:28:31 <CosmoHill> ah good
Sep 15 16:28:37 <smoku> it should pass in a few minutes
Sep 15 16:29:03 <CosmoHill> I liked that when I pushed the pluncher a puff of smoke came out the end :)
Sep 15 16:29:15 <sofar> a lot of consumer electronics have explicit messages saying that they may generate smoke on the first use
Sep 15 16:29:24 <sofar> even my wifes crockpot :)
Sep 15 16:29:29 <CosmoHill> this packaging was useless
Sep 15 16:29:41 <CosmoHill> I didn't find out it was 30w before I took it out the packaging
Sep 15 16:30:19 <CosmoHill> and it didn't mention anyway you shouldn't scratch an itch with it :o
Sep 15 16:30:42 <smoku> Opening the box means agreeing to the licensing terms. You will find the licensing terms inside the box.
Sep 15 16:30:53 <CosmoHill> nope
Sep 15 16:31:02 <smoku> a joke ;-)
Sep 15 16:31:07 <CosmoHill> ah
Sep 15 16:31:20 <smoku> something along the lines was on some microsoft products
Sep 15 16:31:21 <CosmoHill> this is one of the drawbacks of having a text based conversation
Sep 15 16:31:50 <CosmoHill> I read that: 10% is what you say, 30% is the way you say it and 60% is body language
Sep 15 16:32:00 <smoku> yup. but isn't the contradiction obvious? :)
Sep 15 16:32:18 <CosmoHill> ah yes I see it now
Sep 15 16:32:22 <sofar> some people have no sense of sarcasm ;)
Sep 15 16:33:00 <smoku> sofar, I'm just watching second season of "The Big Bang Theory"... tell me about :)
Sep 15 16:35:51 <Stskeeps> oh, TSG tonight
Sep 15 16:35:52 * Stskeeps forgot
Sep 15 16:39:41 <CosmoHill> ah cool
Sep 15 16:39:44 <CosmoHill> I didn't even know
Sep 15 16:40:45 <CosmoHill> http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
Sep 15 16:44:48 <theplic> hi how do i use an external c++ library within qt creator which i use from within the meego-netbook developer image
Sep 15 16:48:13 <CosmoHill> when you say external you mean still within /usr ?
Sep 15 16:49:05 <theplic> CosmoHill: i mean its on my hd :)
Sep 15 16:49:51 <CosmoHill> could you not just specifc #include <foo.h> ?
Sep 15 16:50:39 <theplic> CosmoHill: i have downloaded this library for xmlrpc. now i have no idea how to use it within qt cretor which i invoke from the xephyr cli
Sep 15 17:00:10 <DawnFoster> Just a quick reminder that we have a TSG meeting today - starting in about 2 hours. Details: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
Sep 15 17:46:10 <amjad> Stskeeps: do i qualify to get a build.meego.com account?? or is it still open  only to nokia/intel developers??
Sep 15 17:46:37 <Stskeeps> amjad: not up to me to decide :)
Sep 15 17:47:57 <amjad> any one i can contact and ask for :)??
Sep 15 17:48:12 <sofar> it's still closed
Sep 15 17:49:07 <amjad> ok so i have to work with community obs then :(
Sep 15 17:53:38 <slowness> Hi. I can't anywhere 100% answer of: does meego is available to install n900? I mean whole system with X, window manager? Does is still experimental?
Sep 15 17:53:59 <Stskeeps> yes, it's still experimental, but images are provided on http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php
Sep 15 17:54:05 <Stskeeps> it has a handset u
Sep 15 17:54:07 <Stskeeps> x
Sep 15 17:55:46 <slowness> Stskeeps: Ok, thanks. Do you use it on n900? Which file I should download: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php?f=meego-codedrop-arm-n900-closed-201003311635.ubiimg, and http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php?f=meego-handset-armv5tel-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.13.20100803.2-vmlinuz-2.6.35%7Erc6-133.2-n900 (kernel image). I'm asking because I tried to install it and as a end result system does not boot at all.
Sep 15 17:56:03 <Stskeeps> wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC
Sep 15 17:56:10 <Stskeeps> get the weekly releases, not ubimg :)
Sep 15 17:57:28 <slowness> But I want to install directly on n900. I don't want to use MMC.
Sep 15 17:58:01 <Stskeeps> well, you have to :P
Sep 15 17:58:06 <Stskeeps> it doesn't fit in NAND
Sep 15 17:58:16 <slowness> Stskeeps: really? There is not other way?
Sep 15 17:58:29 <Stskeeps> no other way
Sep 15 17:58:30 <Stskeeps> well
Sep 15 17:58:32 <Stskeeps> there's nfs boot
Sep 15 17:58:44 <Stskeeps> but that's just a waste of your time better spent buying a microsd
Sep 15 17:58:44 <Stskeeps> :P
Sep 15 17:59:00 <sofar> compressed btrfs ftw
Sep 15 17:59:02 <sofar> :)
Sep 15 17:59:10 <Stskeeps> sofar: it works on aava now?
Sep 15 17:59:22 <Stskeeps> we started our first moves to get it on n900 todaay
Sep 15 17:59:22 <sofar> we're getting there
Sep 15 17:59:24 <Stskeeps> k
Sep 15 17:59:37 <sofar> get about 50% compression rate on images
Sep 15 17:59:54 <sofar> afk driving to work
Sep 15 18:00:02 <dneary> Stskeeps, hi there!
Sep 15 18:00:05 <Stskeeps> hi h
Sep 15 18:00:06 <Stskeeps> ii
Sep 15 18:00:17 <dneary> No need to be nervous...
Sep 15 18:00:26 <Stskeeps> sorry, laggy connection :)
Sep 15 18:00:31 <dneary> Stskeeps, You have some maintainer rights for test.maemo.org don't you?
Sep 15 18:00:35 <Stskeeps> dneary: not afaik
Sep 15 18:00:41 <dneary> buggre
Sep 15 18:00:59 <Stskeeps> i was (blessed?) not to be having anything to do with the infra :P
Sep 15 18:07:03 <CosmoHill> 1 hour until the TSG meeting
Sep 15 18:08:59 <Stskeeps> my memory must be really shot, i forgot that's happening (second time today)
Sep 15 18:09:26 <CosmoHill> hehe
Sep 15 18:10:48 <CosmoHill> that was stupid, I set my alerm for 5 mins ago
Sep 15 18:13:56 <sjokkis> hi. couple of small problems with the desktop version you guys might be able to help me with. for one, my speakers aren't muted when i connect headphones, which i would like them to be. second, alt+left/right change tty, which i would rather not.
Sep 15 18:29:46 <Myrtti> lolwhathappen
Sep 15 18:36:44 <npm_> did i come away from yesterdays mtg w/ wrong impression? ; lets say i build something like http://www.global.yamaha.com/tenori-on/index.html with meego. can i call it meego if it is neither desktop/netbook/phone-handheld. it might be a handheld, but it wouldn't have any networking eqpt... so would i not be able to call it meego?
Sep 15 18:37:02 <CosmoHill> half an hour until the meeting
Sep 15 18:50:05 <DawnFoster> The TSG meeting starts in 15 minutes: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
Sep 15 18:50:26 <DawnFoster> ha! beat CosmoHill to one reminder :)
Sep 15 18:51:17 <sjokkis> DawnFoster: Any chance MeeGo will open a request queue for developers needing development platforms (e.g. N900s), the way Maemo did?
Sep 15 18:57:22 <th0br0> :P DawnFoster, but where is the countdown? ;)
Sep 15 18:59:25 <DawnFoster> sjokkis: Not sure, but that's probably a pretty good idea
Sep 15 18:59:46 <DawnFoster> sjokkis: can you post that question to the meego-community mailing list?
Sep 15 19:00:09 <CosmoHill> 5 mins untill meeting
Sep 15 19:00:40 <CosmoHill> DawnFoster: these reminders are for me more than anyone else :o
Sep 15 19:00:51 <sjokkis> DawnFoster: yes
Sep 15 19:01:01 <DawnFoster> CosmoHill: whatever it takes
Sep 15 19:01:39 <lbt> sjokkis: see :)
Sep 15 19:01:56 <sjokkis> lbt: you suggested she'd say no!
Sep 15 19:02:01 <lbt> I did not!
Sep 15 19:02:24 <lbt> Dawn's the one to make it happen
Sep 15 19:02:52 <DawnFoster> ooh, I like to be the one to make stuff happen :)
Sep 15 19:03:02 <sjokkis> i'll write up a request. it doesn't have to be very formal, i hope
Sep 15 19:03:10 <lbt> sjokkis: but we're about to have the TSG meeting in #meego-meeting so busy for an houe
Sep 15 19:03:11 <DawnFoster> it's a great idea, and I can probably get Intel to kick in some netbooks
Sep 15 19:03:23 <lbt> :P
Sep 15 19:03:29 <sjokkis> lbt: that's okay. i got what i needed
Sep 15 19:03:36 <DawnFoster> sjokkis: nothing formal
Sep 15 19:03:50 <DawnFoster> we can work on the details during the discussion
Sep 15 19:04:28 <lbt> yay... Go Kate (on the ml)
Sep 15 19:06:00 <lbt> Jaffa: ... ready to talk to Mark S
Sep 15 19:10:31 <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: meeting :)
Sep 15 19:16:35 <GAN900> lbt, go indeed.
Sep 15 19:17:18 * GAN900 scolds qgilN900 for obnoxious use of e.g.
Sep 15 19:26:42 <slavik> anyone here allowed to release information about screen resolution for the Nokia N9 that knows it?
Sep 15 19:26:55 <CosmoHill> nope
Sep 15 19:27:03 <slavik> :(
Sep 15 19:27:20 <slavik> I was considering sending my resume in, just to get hired and find out :P
Sep 15 19:30:26 * CosmoHill wonders were we fit in in this topic
Sep 15 19:30:55 <Myrtti> I thought the idea of the Local Networks was mainly to endorse physical meetings
Sep 15 19:31:00 <Myrtti> amirite?
Sep 15 19:31:17 <lbt> I thought it was to distribute T-shirts
Sep 15 19:32:49 <CosmoHill> and stickers±!
Sep 15 19:33:11 <lbt> and cider
Sep 15 19:33:12 <slavik> stickers are awesome
Sep 15 19:33:20 <slavik> also, can meego run on an E90?
Sep 15 19:34:09 <CosmoHill> cider :o
Sep 15 19:34:40 <Mat_Matan> E90 have symbian s60 (?)
Sep 15 19:34:54 <slavik> yes
Sep 15 19:35:01 <slavik> E90 runs s60 v3
Sep 15 19:35:26 <Mat_Matan> so, you can't run other OS
Sep 15 19:35:54 <slavik> is it because it is symbian?
Sep 15 19:36:18 <Mat_Matan> yes
Sep 15 19:36:27 <slavik> I see, thanks.
Sep 15 19:41:36 <jnwi> Has anyone here used Qt Script Generator?
Sep 15 19:44:32 <flyman> I am starting to download the Netbook ISO and run it in Oracle VM... I want to start developing for it but where can I find a list of released apps so I can make ones that don't exist?
Sep 15 19:45:20 <lbt> lcuk: tried a BMW... prefer my Jag
Sep 15 19:45:36 <GAN900> lbt, really?
Sep 15 19:45:44 <GAN900> lbt, in which class and why?
Sep 15 19:45:52 <lbt> XKR ... looks sexy
Sep 15 19:45:58 <GAN900> lbt, ah.
Sep 15 19:46:08 <flyman> lbt, I like my XJ8 better than a BMW 3-5 series
Sep 15 19:46:21 <lbt> mmmm yummy...
Sep 15 19:46:36 <lcuk> lbt indeed you do, better now its fixed!
Sep 15 19:46:50 <lbt> mind you ... 2005 model "top of the range" ... has a cassette deck!
Sep 15 19:47:02 <lbt> probably won't run meego
Sep 15 19:47:17 <Stskeeps> plug in a c64
Sep 15 19:47:29 <GAN900> BMW sedans bore me to death.
Sep 15 19:47:36 <lbt> I have my ARM based linux Empeg in there
Sep 15 19:48:09 <lbt> QUESTION: Will MeeGo run on my 10yr old Empeg?
Sep 15 19:48:16 <auke> car interiors should bore you to death - you're supposed to look at the road
Sep 15 19:48:26 <auke> lbt: heh
Sep 15 19:49:24 <CosmoHill> should be very easy to use and very quick to use to minimise the about of time your eyes are off the road
Sep 15 19:49:38 <CosmoHill> if my ipod plays up when I'm driving I just turn it off
Sep 15 19:49:41 <GAN900> auke, not the interior.
Sep 15 19:49:44 <Stskeeps> i vote for tetris on the windscreen
Sep 15 19:49:51 <GAN900> auke, driving feel. ;)
Sep 15 19:49:59 <lbt> here we go....
Sep 15 19:50:11 <lcuk> lol Stskeeps
Sep 15 19:50:26 <auke> brace for impact
Sep 15 19:50:30 <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: HUD Tetris :o
Sep 15 19:51:02 <CosmoHill> sweaving left and right over the motorway to get the blocks in the right place
Sep 15 19:51:14 <TomaszD> Stskeeps, no chance for fluid handset ux on the freerunner eh?
Sep 15 19:51:47 <Stskeeps> TomaszD: if you take some drug that slows down your perception, maybe
Sep 15 19:51:56 <TomaszD> hmm
Sep 15 19:52:01 <lbt> CosmoHill: controlled by accelerometer
Sep 15 19:52:10 <CosmoHill> accelerator :)
Sep 15 19:52:23 <lcuk> TomaszD, what res does it run at?
Sep 15 19:52:28 <lcuk> and CosmoHill AWESOME!
Sep 15 19:52:30 <TomaszD> vga
Sep 15 19:52:55 <lcuk> can it be changed?
Sep 15 19:52:55 <TomaszD> reverse vga, 480x640
Sep 15 19:53:27 <flyman> 20:36M Left until MeeGo is downloaded! After, programming to the m4x0r
Sep 15 19:53:29 <TomaszD> well, people try running it at half res
Sep 15 19:54:03 <lcuk> TomaszD, software scaling? or set at the ioctl level to the graphics card?
Sep 15 19:54:10 <TomaszD> no idea
Sep 15 19:54:29 <lcuk> does it have 3d?
Sep 15 19:54:30 <TomaszD> I'm still waiting for a new battery to boot it, flash it, so I can charge the dead one..
Sep 15 19:54:39 <TomaszD> it has -glamo
Sep 15 19:54:55 <TomaszD> also called a decellerator
Sep 15 19:55:48 <th0br0> :D
Sep 15 19:56:06 <th0br0> in the end, the freerunner was a fail unfortunately :(
Sep 15 19:56:29 <TomaszD> with android cupcake it's workable, with qtmoko it's actually nice
Sep 15 19:56:38 <th0br0> true.
Sep 15 19:56:46 <th0br0> but it's unresponsive by modern standards
Sep 15 19:56:53 <th0br0> and then there's the buzz...
Sep 15 19:56:55 <TomaszD> qtmoko comes close
Sep 15 19:57:05 <TomaszD> I don't have the buzz (a5)
Sep 15 19:57:10 <th0br0> ah :)
Sep 15 19:58:47 <TomaszD> but a5 has a fun feature that doesn't let it power on off the charger
Sep 15 19:59:07 <TomaszD> too small capacitor(s) or something
Sep 15 19:59:30 <th0br0> heh.
Sep 15 19:59:47 <th0br0> i think the overall idea was nice but the freerunner clearly lacked in terms of realization
Sep 15 20:00:25 <TomaszD> I think the problem was software, it took too long to set it straight
Sep 15 20:00:30 <th0br0> that, too.
Sep 15 20:00:32 <lbt> OK .. if no-one else cares I here-by give up
Sep 15 20:00:37 <th0br0> plus quite some hardware problems :(
Sep 15 20:00:43 <th0br0> lbt: give up for today?
Sep 15 20:00:44 <CosmoHill> hey th0br0
Sep 15 20:00:46 <th0br0> or always?
Sep 15 20:00:47 <TomaszD> the specs aren't that terrible
Sep 15 20:00:48 <th0br0> heya CosmoHill
Sep 15 20:00:56 <Stskeeps> lbt, think we're a bit sidetracked on terms
Sep 15 20:00:58 <berndhs> lbt: this is a bad sign
Sep 15 20:01:08 <th0br0> true TomaszD, but isn't the screen bad due to too "small" connections?
Sep 15 20:01:32 <TomaszD> screen bad in what way?
Sep 15 20:01:39 <th0br0> slow?
Sep 15 20:01:43 <th0br0> i mean 3d stuff here mainly.
Sep 15 20:01:55 <CosmoHill> the only thing I understood in todays meeting was the Smeegol thing
Sep 15 20:01:55 <TomaszD> glamo is awful
Sep 15 20:02:12 <slavik> Nokia needs to do what Xerox did ...
Sep 15 20:02:13 <lbt> frankly these things come up and no-one wants to discuss them
Sep 15 20:02:26 <th0br0> yeah TomaszD :(
Sep 15 20:02:45 <DawnFoster> lbt: we said we wanted to discuss it on the mailing list
Sep 15 20:02:51 <th0br0> but anyway, let's rather look forward to meego powered devices :)
Sep 15 20:02:55 <DawnFoster> the TSG is intended as an approval meeting
Sep 15 20:02:59 <slavik> build a billion dollar campus in NY, put the smart people there and just give them one project: "make a kickass phone"
Sep 15 20:03:07 <DawnFoster> we always take the meaty discussions back to the list
Sep 15 20:03:16 <lbt> DawnFoster: and I wanted feedback on that approach
Sep 15 20:03:31 <lbt> is Imad intending to make OSS 2nd class?
Sep 15 20:03:39 <th0br0> slavik: xerox? (+1 on the idea tho!)
Sep 15 20:03:46 <slavik> yes
Sep 15 20:03:49 <slavik> Xerox PARC
Sep 15 20:03:52 <lbt> DawnFoster: Is that an acceptable outcome?
Sep 15 20:03:59 <Stskeeps> lbt, i don't see the oss being the point - external deps is
Sep 15 20:04:08 <slavik> invented: ethernet, GUI, mouse, objective C
Sep 15 20:04:10 <lbt> yeah... but come on
Sep 15 20:04:11 <Stskeeps> cos a oss app could easily be compliant
Sep 15 20:04:13 <mskarpne> lbt: no - but you can't just brush aside the needs of those deploying a device - that won't fly
Sep 15 20:04:14 <DawnFoster> I agree with Stskeeps
Sep 15 20:04:14 <slavik> probably bunch of other stuff
Sep 15 20:04:18 <slavik> laser printers?
Sep 15 20:04:19 <lbt> all closed apps deliver a huge blobl
Sep 15 20:04:38 <berndhs> Stskeeps: a big part is device manufacturers want to keep their business and development models
Sep 15 20:04:38 <mskarpne> lbt:  let's continue the discussion - I have to run
Sep 15 20:04:42 <lbt> you download 20Mb for a damned desktop widget
Sep 15 20:04:53 <lbt> mskarpne:...
Sep 15 20:04:55 <lcuk> its a damned good desktop widget though!
Sep 15 20:05:04 <lbt> lcuk: of course, it has python embedded
Sep 15 20:05:09 <lcuk> :D
Sep 15 20:05:32 <lbt> Stskeeps: so it *is* OSS vs closed
Sep 15 20:05:47 <lbt> but I'm talking bazaar vs cathedral.... not license
Sep 15 20:05:55 <Stskeeps> lbt, ok, so, philosophy not licensing
Sep 15 20:06:02 <Stskeeps> that was the sidetracking
Sep 15 20:06:17 <lbt> sharing, building on the works of others, innovating with minimal tweaks
Sep 15 20:06:41 <berndhs> lbt: its about barriers to entry as well
Sep 15 20:06:43 <lbt> not taking on the burden of maintaining the ssl library that you have to now bundle to run your facebook widget
Sep 15 20:06:43 <lcuk> closed libraries cannot be used in the core can they?
Sep 15 20:07:00 <Stskeeps> lcuk, no, which is exact same situation..
Sep 15 20:07:30 <lcuk> supposing Surrounds or extras or community repo gets going
Sep 15 20:07:37 <lcuk> and supposing a library is used by 50 apps
Sep 15 20:07:40 <GAN900> lbt, well, I really appreciate you championing these issues
Sep 15 20:07:42 <lbt> *nod*
Sep 15 20:07:49 <lcuk> at some point, someone will say "can this library go into the core"
Sep 15 20:07:52 <Stskeeps> i think what we really need is an answer to 'how to handle apis that arent in meego yet'
Sep 15 20:08:04 <Stskeeps> that is the core of the problem
Sep 15 20:08:09 <lbt> GAN900: but I sound like a raving FSFer :(
Sep 15 20:08:13 <lcuk> with the OSS model of community applicaitons (which would follow the meego core principles)
Sep 15 20:08:16 <lcuk> it would be simple
Sep 15 20:08:17 <lbt> lcuk: yes of course
Sep 15 20:08:18 <lcuk> just a repo change
Sep 15 20:08:21 <Stskeeps> cos innovation will move faster than meego
Sep 15 20:08:28 <GAN900> lbt, hardly.
Sep 15 20:08:31 <lcuk> that is why lbt is pushing it so much (i tihnk)
Sep 15 20:08:36 <lbt> lcuk: and... when a library is moved out of core...
Sep 15 20:08:46 <lcuk> indeed - the same happens
Sep 15 20:08:48 <lbt> it can stay in community and apps don't *have* to abandon it
Sep 15 20:08:48 <Stskeeps> next question is why we're so hung up on app compliance..
Sep 15 20:08:52 <lcuk> :)
Sep 15 20:09:02 * lcuk understands davids intent
Sep 15 20:09:03 <lbt> Stskeeps: get your app into a store without it
Sep 15 20:09:09 <lbt> I challenge you
Sep 15 20:09:25 <lbt> Ovi won't let you
Sep 15 20:09:34 <Stskeeps> lbt, right - i mean in terms of a extras like thing
Sep 15 20:09:37 <lbt> I will take bets
Sep 15 20:09:38 <lcuk> technically there is problems with OSS apps in ovi anyway
Sep 15 20:09:39 <slavik> ooh, another question, what kind of repository type of thing will there be for meego? any chance for apt?
Sep 15 20:09:54 <lbt> yes.. so "Extras" becomes the *only* place for OSS apps
Sep 15 20:10:02 <GAN900> lbt, I, for one, don't have the time or energy to try fighting these battles (especially in MeeGo), and I don't want to see yet another person who can give up.
Sep 15 20:10:02 <lbt> how many IVI stores will allow that?
Sep 15 20:10:08 <slavik> or is it going to be some proprietary non-configurable thing that we will need to hack to be able to get our own stuff on?
Sep 15 20:10:25 <lcuk> evening felipec \o
Sep 15 20:10:25 <lbt> GAN ... so did you see the resounding support I got in there?
Sep 15 20:10:48 <GAN900> lbt, silent majority? :D
Sep 15 20:10:56 <felipec> hey lcuk
Sep 15 20:10:59 <lcuk> in a meeting like that silent cannot work
Sep 15 20:11:01 * lbt needs more rabble roused
Sep 15 20:11:09 <csdb> I think lbt has a point - if you say anything outside of meego-core must be fully self-contained, and these are binary files (not some bytecode), then potentially each one will be quite big.
Sep 15 20:11:18 <GAN900> I've given up rabble rousing for MeeGo.
Sep 15 20:11:19 <lbt> Imad prolly went off thinking I was a nutcase
Sep 15 20:11:27 * lcuk bets he doesnt
Sep 15 20:11:47 <GAN900> One hardly could if they knew anything about you or your track record.
Sep 15 20:11:56 <lbt> meh... bad mood
Sep 15 20:11:59 <Stskeeps> lbt, my primary concern is how we solve the problem in a sane way
Sep 15 20:12:08 <GAN900> Although given the fact that the TSG seems incapable of doing preliminary research. . . .
Sep 15 20:12:09 <csdb> and to say that core will take care of all of the "usual" cases is quite naive
Sep 15 20:12:10 <lcuk> csdb, I don't think lbt would continue with this if he didn't have a point.
Sep 15 20:12:24 <lbt> I was hoping mskarpne would stick around
Sep 15 20:12:26 <lcuk> take a game library like SDL
Sep 15 20:12:29 <DawnFoster> lbt: imad's been in open source for years, he's seen much bigger nutcases than you :)
Sep 15 20:12:34 <lcuk> used by thousands of apps
Sep 15 20:12:35 <lbt> pffft
Sep 15 20:12:39 <GAN900> lbt, TSG meetings are checklists.
Sep 15 20:12:43 <Stskeeps> lbt, and building on top of others is a app developer thing too
Sep 15 20:12:44 <lcuk> lol DawnFoster
Sep 15 20:13:05 <csdb> given that these are binaries, we'll end up with many multi-meg rpms with lots of replicated work
Sep 15 20:13:17 <lcuk> lbt, the examples I outlined might be more important - to show the steps, I will write them up better
Sep 15 20:13:18 <lbt> Stskeeps.... I still predict that the compliance thing will bite Extras *so* hard
Sep 15 20:13:21 <csdb> but that's equally true for proprietary apps that are built on top of OSS libraries
Sep 15 20:13:33 <lbt> csdb: yes... LGPL
Sep 15 20:13:38 <lcuk> is SDL in core?
Sep 15 20:13:44 <lcuk> because I will use that as an example
Sep 15 20:13:44 <Stskeeps> lbt, no, it will do the opposite - extras would be where people can do cool apps
Sep 15 20:14:03 <lbt> Stskeeps: but the exposure will be tiny
Sep 15 20:14:09 <Stskeeps> as tey can build on new shiny libraries
Sep 15 20:14:11 <csdb> Android et.all I think get around this by using bytecode, so that even if they throw the kitchen sink into the app, it still isn't that big.
Sep 15 20:14:32 <lcuk> Stskeeps, so I build something in extras using SDL and want to sell it on ovi or appup
Sep 15 20:14:32 * Stskeeps heads to bed
Sep 15 20:14:42 <lcuk> the library it uses is a cool thing in extras
Sep 15 20:14:47 <lbt> lcuk: you bundle SDL
Sep 15 20:14:52 <lbt> and support it forever
Sep 15 20:14:53 <slavik> core - kernel and essential libs for kernel?
Sep 15 20:14:55 <lcuk> but I have 20 games!
Sep 15 20:14:57 <lbt> night Stskeeps
Sep 15 20:15:04 <lcuk> or 100
Sep 15 20:15:09 <th0br0> xerox bye Stskeeps
Sep 15 20:15:13 <lcuk> gnite Stskeeps
Sep 15 20:15:19 <lbt> lcuk: yes... your device will have 100 SDL library copies...
Sep 15 20:15:25 <lcuk> :D awesome!
Sep 15 20:15:33 <lcuk> that will work well
Sep 15 20:15:41 <lbt> do intel sell flash?
Sep 15 20:15:49 <lbt> ah! the secret agenda!
Sep 15 20:15:57 <lcuk> yes but you have to bundle bang with it too
Sep 15 20:16:33 * csdb runs to buy stock in flash manufacturers before word gets out
Sep 15 20:17:21 <lcuk> with each stock you purchase, you also get a broker, his office, house, car and family
Sep 15 20:17:53 <csdb> I can see the reverse argument too: that if there are dependencies on non-core stuff, then the runs-on-all meego devs fails. But how real is that if there are multiple archs for the binaries anyways?
Sep 15 20:18:27 <csdb> I won't expect my app-for-meego-phone to run unchanged on my netbook or car?
Sep 15 20:18:52 <lcuk> I could feasibly see at the point of game1 being moved into ovi, also moving sdl
Sep 15 20:18:58 <lcuk> and syncing it to latest
Sep 15 20:19:01 <lbt> csdb: so my app has 10 binary files.. how does it matter if they arrive on my device using 10 over 1 tcp connection or 5 each over 2
Sep 15 20:19:15 <lcuk> so that to get game1 it would get the latest sdl from ovi repo also
Sep 15 20:19:23 <lcuk> but it would remain as a library
Sep 15 20:19:31 <lcuk> other than that, i think it would be complex
Sep 15 20:19:54 <lcuk> getting game2 or game3 would say "ahh you have latest SDL already
Sep 15 20:19:55 <lbt> lcuk: Surrounds would have to 'release' and freeze too
Sep 15 20:20:00 <lcuk> sure
Sep 15 20:20:11 <lcuk> but that sort of dependency movement would be a halfway house
Sep 15 20:20:12 <csdb> lbt: the point is that if the only external dependencies of your app are things in meego-core, and meego-core is guaranteed to be available on all meego-devs, then the theory is that once your app is built for one meego,
Sep 15 20:20:13 <GAN900> I think giving operators so much power to dictate to their customers is a problem, personally.
Sep 15 20:20:14 <lcuk> and would allow it
Sep 15 20:20:17 <csdb> it can be rebuild for any meego
Sep 15 20:20:25 <lcuk> without the issue really
Sep 15 20:20:26 <csdb> its not about downloads, just availability
Sep 15 20:20:40 <lbt> csdb: it's not about rebuild
Sep 15 20:20:46 <lbt> it's about distribution
Sep 15 20:20:59 <lcuk> thts not happening though, can the meego netbook core panels thingy work on handset?
Sep 15 20:20:59 <lbt> potentially I guess, as a standalone file
Sep 15 20:21:10 <lbt> anyhow... got to go do work....
Sep 15 20:23:21 <flyman> MeeGo is installing... Vroom!
Sep 15 20:23:22 <csdb> so building for meego-core doesn't mean works-across-UXes then. Ok, that leaves sticking to meego-core so that it always works-within-UX. Is that the purpose?
Sep 15 20:24:02 <csdb> Is the store tied to the phone-vendor or the phone-operator?
Sep 15 20:35:58 <flyman> MeeGo very easy to install, horrible to run in Oracle VM VirtualBox. Black screen of death :{
Sep 15 20:56:03 <eikke> is the meego tablet edition available as a qemu image somewhere?
Sep 15 21:08:08 <auke> eikke: there is no meego tablet edition available
Sep 15 21:13:17 <eikke> auke: oh? i saw some good-looking demos on youtuube
Sep 15 21:13:42 <lcuk> I saw alien videos on youtube too
Sep 15 21:13:53 <lcuk> that doesn't mean they walk amongst us
Sep 15 21:13:57 <auke> actually
Sep 15 21:14:00 <auke> aliens were released
Sep 15 21:14:23 <auke> several nations regularly release aliens all over the world
Sep 15 21:15:21 <eikke> right
Sep 15 21:16:52 <auke> eikke: a video on youtube is all you got... there is no tablet release nor is there anything to download.
Sep 15 21:19:32 <eikke> auke: i see
Sep 15 21:30:16 <Mat_Matan> Good night
Sep 15 21:36:40 <julian_lp> how many meego ready phones are there in the place where you live?
Sep 15 21:36:46 <julian_lp> kinda quiz
Sep 15 21:37:28 <julian_lp> here in Argentina only N900 is able to run it, but I think not oficcially supported...
Sep 15 21:37:40 <berndhs> julian_lp: millions, i live on earth
Sep 15 21:38:38 <julian_lp> nah seriously pleaseeeeeeee
Sep 15 21:38:48 <berndhs> your question isn't serious
Sep 15 21:39:02 <julian_lp> awww sorry for that
Sep 15 21:39:18 <julian_lp> I'll try to ellaborate more what I want to know
Sep 15 21:39:18 <berndhs> i dont think there are any devices you can buy with meego on them
Sep 15 21:39:34 <julian_lp> Is meego in a beta stage yet?
Sep 15 21:39:36 <berndhs> but there are many things that will run meego if you want to
Sep 15 21:41:26 <julian_lp> ok, but Is it known when there will be meego devices ?
Sep 15 21:42:36 <julian_lp> bern you seem to know fairly well the meego wave, so I need to ask you a couple of questions
Sep 15 21:42:38 <wmarone> There are no announced MeeGo phones at this time
Sep 15 21:42:50 <berndhs> probably, but not by me :) there must be manufacturers preparing stuff quietly
Sep 15 21:43:02 <wmarone> the first will likely be a Nokia handset
Sep 15 21:43:35 <julian_lp> Is the C++ used by Qt the "standard" C++, or is a subset of libraries?
Sep 15 21:43:55 <ieatlint> intel has been touting a tablet with meego on it that is released next week
Sep 15 21:43:57 <berndhs> it's the whole C++
Sep 15 21:44:08 <wmarone> it's standard C++ (ie. none of the standard C++ type libraries or classes are gone)
Sep 15 21:44:14 <julian_lp> I mean, I came from a Delphi (object pascal) background now working mainly with PHP
Sep 15 21:44:21 <wmarone> oh delphi
Sep 15 21:44:28 <wmarone> tragically abused language
Sep 15 21:44:35 * wmarone started on it
Sep 15 21:44:52 <julian_lp> abused? why?
Sep 15 21:45:01 <wmarone> it's changed hands a bunch
Sep 15 21:45:14 <julian_lp> ahh yes
Sep 15 21:45:38 <julian_lp> I liked it a lot before knowing the C style of PHP
Sep 15 21:45:39 <wmarone> I'd like to use it again, but the prices they want for it are ridiculous when I can grab Qt Creator
Sep 15 21:45:56 <julian_lp> dont forget you've FreePascal to play with
Sep 15 21:46:02 <wmarone> that too
Sep 15 21:46:15 <wmarone> but I'm too far out from Pascal to worry about going back to it at this point
Sep 15 21:46:16 <julian_lp> besides it's cross compiler
Sep 15 21:46:31 <wmarone> all my low level stuff these days is C, with the high level stuff in Ruby :)
Sep 15 21:47:00 <julian_lp> yeah I've the same feeling ...  but dont you feel C++ pointers really confusing?
Sep 15 21:47:08 <wmarone> not really
Sep 15 21:47:11 <julian_lp> or C pointers by the way
Sep 15 21:47:34 <ieatlint> pointers are fun :P
Sep 15 21:47:50 <julian_lp> maybe it's me, I once asked some question in the C newsgroup and someone told me C++ is fairly Ambiguous
Sep 15 21:48:17 <ieatlint> that's an ambiguous statement
Sep 15 21:48:24 <julian_lp> hehe
Sep 15 21:48:31 <holaback> where can I find meego job for entry level ?
Sep 15 21:49:03 <julian_lp> I mean things can be written quite different meaning the same do you agree?
Sep 15 21:49:12 <wmarone> certainly
Sep 15 21:49:16 <julian_lp> Is it ok asking some C questions here?
Sep 15 21:50:25 <julian_lp> well no one seem to be offended so I'll give a try...
Sep 15 21:51:28 <julian_lp> let's say I have this line(pseudocode):      function GetIntValue (*int aVal)
Sep 15 21:51:39 <julian_lp> what would be the meaning of the asterisk???
Sep 15 21:51:50 <ieatlint> invalid unary operator
Sep 15 21:51:55 <julian_lp> is the argument a pointer to an int?
Sep 15 21:51:55 <ieatlint> int *aVal
Sep 15 21:51:56 <wmarone> lol
Sep 15 21:51:59 <berndhs> its in the wrong place
Sep 15 21:52:03 <julian_lp> ah ok ok
Sep 15 21:52:12 <ieatlint> it means aVal is a pointer of type int
Sep 15 21:52:17 <julian_lp> ok
Sep 15 21:52:31 <julian_lp> now, I want to return the VALUE of that int
Sep 15 21:52:40 <julian_lp> what should I do?
Sep 15 21:52:44 <ieatlint> return *aVal;
Sep 15 21:52:44 <julian_lp> return aValue*
Sep 15 21:53:14 <julian_lp> ieatlint,... arent you returning the pointer?
Sep 15 21:53:29 <ieatlint> "return aVal;" returns the pointer
Sep 15 21:53:41 <ieatlint> "return *aVal;" says dereference the pointer and return its value
Sep 15 21:53:51 <berndhs> aVal is the pointer, "*aVal" is what it points to
Sep 15 21:54:05 <slavik> basic C?
Sep 15 21:54:16 <ieatlint> think of it this was, you have "int aVal;" -- it's an int, it stores a number
Sep 15 21:54:24 <julian_lp> great, so aVal were the pointer cause that's how it was declared right?
Sep 15 21:54:34 <ieatlint> "&aVal" is the memory address of aVal
Sep 15 21:54:43 <ieatlint> for every &, you need a *
Sep 15 21:54:58 <ieatlint> & says give me memory address, * says dereference memory address
Sep 15 21:55:20 <ieatlint> your function would be called like this: int aVal; GetIntValue( &aVal );
Sep 15 21:55:28 <ieatlint> so in your function, you need *aVal to get the value
Sep 15 21:56:50 <julian_lp> I guess I have to read carefully to get the idea, now you put the "&" sign into the issue and I got confused,
Sep 15 21:57:34 <ieatlint> your welcome
Sep 15 21:57:35 <ieatlint> :P
Sep 15 21:58:04 <wmarone> the wikipedia article on pointers is pretty good :)
Sep 15 21:58:58 <julian_lp> hopefully you'll answer again ;)    GetValue(int *aVal)    aVal is a Pointer to an Integer? if it is a pointer, why the tipe is "int" rather than "pointer"
Sep 15 21:59:19 <berndhs> you can have pointers to other stuff
Sep 15 21:59:21 <julian_lp> wait till I complete
Sep 15 21:59:29 <ieatlint> well, to be pedantic "pointer" isn't a type, the generic pointer type is "void"
Sep 15 21:59:44 <ieatlint> but the reason is so when you dereference it, you know what it is
Sep 15 21:59:58 <julian_lp> int i = 10;  GetValue (&i)
Sep 15 22:00:04 <ifdef42> when you put int *aVal, the type of aVal is "int *", meaning pointer to int
Sep 15 22:00:06 <slavik> ieatlint: generic pointer is void* technically, no?
Sep 15 22:00:08 <ieatlint> so like "char *blah" is a 1 byte character, whereas "int *blah" is a 4 byte integer
Sep 15 22:00:18 <ieatlint> slavik: bah, yes, to be more pedantic ;)
Sep 15 22:00:35 <slavik> int *aVal, aVal is type "int *", type of *aVal is "int". you are welcome. :)
Sep 15 22:00:40 <julian_lp> does the above  compile?
Sep 15 22:00:56 <ieatlint> :P
Sep 15 22:01:07 <ieatlint> julian_lp: yes
Sep 15 22:01:09 <slavik> julian_lp: whether it compiles or not is for the compiler to tell you, but it is correct. :)
Sep 15 22:01:38 <wmarone> julian_lp: I highly recommend grabbing GCC a good C book, and playing around
Sep 15 22:01:43 <julian_lp> well now I'm starting to understand thanks to the meebo folks ;)
Sep 15 22:01:52 <slavik> wmarone: you mean the K&R book :)
Sep 15 22:02:03 <slavik> julian_lp: buy the K&R book, it's cheap.
Sep 15 22:02:21 <wmarone> slavik: yes :)
Sep 15 22:02:22 <slavik> julian_lp: let me guess, your first programming language is Python.
Sep 15 22:02:57 * wmarone has an old copy of the first edition, with its weird parameter lists
Sep 15 22:03:00 <julian_lp> nah, it was Clipper did you remember it?
Sep 15 22:03:32 <julian_lp> aww, I forgot I had been playing with COBOL !!
Sep 15 22:03:33 <slavik> wmarone: is it even avail for purchase anywhere? interesting for historical purposes. :)
Sep 15 22:03:39 <julian_lp> I'm 33
Sep 15 22:03:48 <slavik> oh, I was off by 30 years
Sep 15 22:03:55 <slavik> :(
Sep 15 22:04:01 <slavik> what is Clipper?
Sep 15 22:04:02 <ifdef42> wow, clipper. haven't heard that in a while.
Sep 15 22:04:12 <ifdef42> like 20 years.
Sep 15 22:04:21 <julian_lp> Some sort of power builder / clarion, and the like
Sep 15 22:04:26 <wmarone> slavik: dunno, I rescued the copy I have from the trash bin
Sep 15 22:04:31 <julian_lp> a database kind of programing lang I guess
Sep 15 22:04:37 <slavik> powerbuilder ... heard it, seen, it's crap
Sep 15 22:04:45 <slavik> wmarone: nice
Sep 15 22:04:57 <slavik> clarion = emc storage device ... :-\
Sep 15 22:05:00 <julian_lp> do you know here in my country, PW works are really well paid?
Sep 15 22:05:09 <julian_lp> and you know why?
Sep 15 22:05:11 <slavik> PW is complete crap though, isn't it?
Sep 15 22:05:15 <slavik> because nobody knows it?
Sep 15 22:05:34 <julian_lp> cause banks and financial businnes dont want to rewrite their codebase
Sep 15 22:05:40 <mikhas> julian_lp, think of it this way: "&" goes left, "*" goes right
Sep 15 22:05:41 <slavik> what else is new?
Sep 15 22:05:44 <julian_lp> someone has to maintain it
Sep 15 22:06:19 <slavik> that is why the State of California had to spend millions to fix a Cobol app to change a number, because the app only supported increasing the number, not decreasing it.
Sep 15 22:06:31 <julian_lp> even Cobol programmers are rather well paid too
Sep 15 22:06:32 <slavik> and brought Cobol developers out of retirement
Sep 15 22:07:02 <mikhas> s/retirement/graves
Sep 15 22:07:18 <slavik> mikhas: yes, thank you for that correction
Sep 15 22:07:38 <julian_lp> mikas please WAIT, why "*" goes right??? I had put it left side??
Sep 15 22:07:42 <julian_lp> is it the same=?
Sep 15 22:07:56 <mikhas> julian_lp, no - I meant in a metaphorical sense
Sep 15 22:08:06 <julian_lp> That's why I said "ambiguous"...
Sep 15 22:08:12 <mikhas> left and right, as in: opposite directions
Sep 15 22:08:20 <julian_lp> but what does the right asterisk mean?
Sep 15 22:08:23 <trem> nite all, sweet dreams
Sep 15 22:08:35 <mikhas> it means deref
Sep 15 22:08:44 <julian_lp> awww
Sep 15 22:08:45 <wmarone> there's no ambiguity here, one way is correct and the other is a syntax error
Sep 15 22:09:02 <slavik> wmarone: int *a vs int* a?
Sep 15 22:09:12 <wmarone> no, that's irrelevant
Sep 15 22:09:17 <mikhas> have a "pointer" to sth, and look at what it is that the pointer points to :-D
Sep 15 22:09:21 <wmarone> since c doesn't care about spacing
Sep 15 22:09:25 <julian_lp> ohhhhhh wmarone...
Sep 15 22:09:56 <julian_lp> that's very confusing, dont like the design at all (no one cares about it anyway hehe)
Sep 15 22:10:01 <mikhas> &: have sth, and get a "pointer" to sth
Sep 15 22:10:50 <mikhas> in that sense, & and * is as if you were looking into opposite directions, hence "left" and "right"
Sep 15 22:10:53 <mikeleib> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/C_Programming
Sep 15 22:10:54 <slavik> wmarone: I thought that is what was meant by right/left :)
Sep 15 22:11:14 <mikeleib> #meego is not the place to learn how to write C code
Sep 15 22:11:24 <mikeleib> #meego is not the place to learn how to write C++ code
Sep 15 22:11:55 <mikhas> mikeleib, even if you had a channel, say #c++, it wouldnt be the right place to learn c++ ;-)
Sep 15 22:11:57 * jausmus thinks #meego is the place to learn about D code !!!
Sep 15 22:11:58 <julian_lp> mikeleib: It's the wrong place but I'm learning here a little bit
Sep 15 22:12:06 <julian_lp> so it's the right place
Sep 15 22:12:06 <slavik> ##c :)
Sep 15 22:12:09 <slavik> and ##c++
Sep 15 22:12:24 <auke> do not confuse with #c#
Sep 15 22:12:26 <auke> :)
Sep 15 22:12:29 <lcuk> don't those channels kick you out if you say you are wanting to use Qt C++ variant
Sep 15 22:12:31 * lcuk ducks
Sep 15 22:12:33 <slavik> C++x0 > * :-\
Sep 15 22:12:38 <ifdef42> i created #pointers :)
Sep 15 22:12:48 <auke> good one
Sep 15 22:12:58 <mikeleib> you can learn a lot of things in a lot of places, but that doesn't make them the ideal places to learn
Sep 15 22:13:06 <julian_lp> yeah that's why I asked about the Qt comintement with standards
Sep 15 22:13:09 * lcuk actually likes to see the channel buzzing
Sep 15 22:13:15 <mikhas> that assumes that there were ideal places
Sep 15 22:13:25 <lcuk> it shows active community
Sep 15 22:13:58 <lcuk> just don't ignore people who chirp in with real meego specific topics :P
Sep 15 22:14:43 * csdb thinks buzzing != community
Sep 15 22:15:06 <julian_lp> Talking strictly about meego, does anybody know a good Microchip Pic C compiler for Linux?
Sep 15 22:15:09 <julian_lp> ;)
Sep 15 22:15:35 <julian_lp> Free one I mean
Sep 15 22:16:25 <lcuk> julian_lp, what devices is that for?
Sep 15 22:17:26 <julian_lp> they're risc 8 bit microcontroller
Sep 15 22:17:48 <lcuk> do they have the seemingly required GLes components?
Sep 15 22:17:57 <lcuk> (for meego usage :P)
Sep 15 22:18:11 <julian_lp> I guess no
Sep 15 22:19:12 <julian_lp> they're just cheap stuff to do basics circuits like temporizers, industrial automation, stepper controllers and the like
Sep 15 22:19:55 <lcuk> julian_lp, like the arduino?
Sep 15 22:20:11 <julian_lp> yes absolutely
Sep 15 22:20:30 <julian_lp> arduino is build up with Atmel chips though
Sep 15 22:21:16 <julian_lp> what I want to build right now is a kinda Touch Screen through an infrared grid,
Sep 15 22:21:43 <lcuk> cool, I have seen people use LED arrays with touch feedback
Sep 15 22:21:52 <julian_lp> the interface in the pc will be my first step with Qt (that's why I'm in the meego channel)
Sep 15 22:21:57 <lcuk> I think lbt has some sort of pic board he played with a while back
Sep 15 22:22:01 <lcuk> can't remember the model though
Sep 15 22:22:02 <mikhas> julian_lp, is your infrared grid multitouch capable?
Sep 15 22:22:04 <mikhas> SCNR
Sep 15 22:22:40 <julian_lp> well my impression is that it will be multitouch capable, limited multitouch though
Sep 15 22:22:50 <mikhas> yeah ;-)
Sep 15 22:22:57 <mikhas> one finger per grid line
Sep 15 22:22:57 <julian_lp> I only need a grid of buttons anyway
Sep 15 22:23:06 <mikhas> "dont cross fingers!"
Sep 15 22:23:11 <lcuk> :D
Sep 15 22:23:38 <julian_lp> I've been writing down some pseudocode and I guess it will have 3 features
Sep 15 22:23:43 <julian_lp> 1 click
Sep 15 22:23:45 <julian_lp> 2 long click
Sep 15 22:23:56 <julian_lp> 3 scroll horizontal andvertical
Sep 15 22:24:03 <julian_lp> not diagonal yet
Sep 15 22:24:31 <julian_lp> Did you see the Atmel multiTouch circuit?
Sep 15 22:24:57 <julian_lp> really amazing kind of product (samsung galaxy uses it btw)
Sep 15 22:29:11 <ieatlint> apparently meego will be supporting javascript programs in the future
Sep 15 22:29:34 <julian_lp> javascript programs???
Sep 15 22:29:40 <auke> yup, javascript
Sep 15 22:29:47 <auke> web runtime toolkit
Sep 15 22:30:24 <julian_lp> interpreted applications or they will be compiled?
Sep 15 22:30:43 <ieatlint> and a json based language to make ui elements, heh
Sep 15 22:31:22 <auke> julian_lp: intel has put a lot of effort into javascript interpreter code...
Sep 15 22:31:23 <mikhas> ieatlint, "What is ClutterScript"
Sep 15 22:31:30 <auke> exactly
Sep 15 22:31:37 <auke> part of the netbook ui already is JS
Sep 15 22:31:52 <ieatlint> reminded me of efl more actually
Sep 15 22:32:08 <julian_lp> so maybe applications could be ran from the web?
Sep 15 22:32:39 <julian_lp> outside the browser I mean
Sep 15 22:33:09 <julian_lp> javascript as an independent app
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Sep 15 23:18:40 <Myrtti> right, it's silly o'clock again
Sep 15 23:20:11 <mikeleib> I thought that was only on the hour
Sep 16 00:03:00 <Myrtti> well it's stupid o'clock now...
Sep 16 00:03:03 * Myrtti goes to bed
Sep 16 00:06:09 <Daniel> hello
Sep 16 00:07:47 <Daniel> i just wanted to know if its possible to just burn a dvd with the image in order to install meego before downloading it.... is it?
Sep 16 00:08:16 <Daniel> i mean, instead of using a thumb drive..
Sep 16 00:11:23 <Daniel> KTHX BAI!
Sep 16 01:04:04 * peb_ is gone. Gone since Tue Sep  7 15:18:00 2010
Sep 16 02:39:05 <Kubuntiac> Diaspora's code is out for those interested!
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