**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 16 02:59:57 2010 Sep 16 05:01:20 good morning Sep 16 05:29:57 what can meego do on n900? I just get an empty screen Sep 16 05:30:07 och no wait get the menu Sep 16 05:33:25 Where can i find the git for the gst-plugins-bad-free package ? Sep 16 05:34:15 I have cloned this gitorious.org/maemo-multimedia/gst-plugins-bad but is does not seam right Sep 16 05:50:51 morning Sep 16 06:47:58 Hi. I'm trying to run meego core tests but I don't have testdefinition-syntax.xsd. It probably should be in test-definition.tar.gz but I have no idea where to look for it... Sep 16 07:07:21 morn david o/ Sep 16 07:22:23 good morning Carsten :) Sep 16 07:22:38 Morning all. Sep 16 07:28:04 morning Sep 16 07:28:21 diaspora* morning that is :) Sep 16 07:28:59 good morning X-Fade :) Sep 16 07:29:10 * lbt feels his approach isn't going to scale... Sep 16 07:29:35 Write a greeter tcl script :) Sep 16 07:30:40 tcl.... oooh, that's been a while Sep 16 07:30:47 :) Sep 16 07:42:06 lbt: i have community obs related questions Sep 16 07:43:56 when i build the latest qt from the image released on 14 using community obs, this is the error i get Sep 16 07:44:14 http://pastebin.com/jStCXGqK Sep 16 07:54:04 morning Sep 16 07:55:00 morning Sep 16 07:55:09 amjad: hmmm ... I guess that's ssse3 instructions? Sep 16 07:55:38 Stskeeps: ? /tmp/ccV7Bpxs.s:4028: Error: selected processor does not support `strex r0,r1,[r2]' Sep 16 07:56:45 fixed in acceptance Sep 16 07:56:55 and no Sep 16 07:56:56 it's ARMv6 Sep 16 07:57:33 OK ... I don't read asdm Sep 16 07:57:34 asm Sep 16 07:57:48 me neither Sep 16 07:57:49 :P Sep 16 07:58:30 so amjad what are you building against? Sep 16 07:58:49 is this your problem now or does the build target need an upgrade? Sep 16 08:00:46 i am building for armv7 and i assume in spec file this is the fix to bypass the error Sep 16 08:00:50 ifarch armv7l Sep 16 08:00:50 %define arch_arg armv6 Sep 16 08:00:50 %endif Sep 16 08:09:14 at last Sep 16 08:09:35 adobe provides a 64 bits plugin for linux that will become a final release Sep 16 08:09:45 amjad: I suggest you ask in #meego-arm Sep 16 08:10:20 amjad: wait for next weekly import, as latest weekly is broken in that regard Sep 16 08:10:21 vlj, I thought you were going to say, "At last, I have made it through the forest and made it all the way into #meego!" Sep 16 08:10:37 ah ok Sep 16 08:10:38 :p Sep 16 08:10:50 sorry to disappoint you Sep 16 08:11:24 by the way is the hardware acceleration feature of chrome 7 working with current branch ? Sep 16 08:12:02 the dev team spoke about that Sep 16 08:13:07 I'm testing I9 on my gma 500 powered netbook (you know, the one that cannot run any linux properly :p ) Sep 16 08:13:50 and scrolling webpage is amazingly smooth on the atom Sep 16 08:13:59 would be a nice thing if it can come to meego quickly Sep 16 08:14:12 what ie9? xD Sep 16 08:14:44 they totally revamped IE engine Sep 16 08:14:56 yea i read on /. Sep 16 08:15:06 the browser became good Sep 16 08:15:14 however seven is not that great on a netbook Sep 16 08:15:15 no xp though Sep 16 08:15:25 seven is ok. i use it. Sep 16 08:15:42 especially after i got the anti-virus uninstalled. Sep 16 08:15:44 well "is ok" but it's not as good as a lightweight linux Sep 16 08:16:03 it takes age to boot, it quickly run into low memory Sep 16 08:16:21 idk. mine boots as fast as meego Sep 16 08:16:44 I have a 32 Go ssd on it Sep 16 08:16:51 and a 20 Go partition for windows Sep 16 08:17:10 18 Go are consummed by windows, services, thing like that Sep 16 08:17:15 I have not a lot of space =( Sep 16 08:17:26 i have lots of space :D Sep 16 08:17:33 linux does not take more than 5 Go Sep 16 08:17:37 100 gb~ for each 7 and meego Sep 16 08:17:44 ssd ? Sep 16 08:18:06 mine is T91MT Sep 16 08:18:08 uhm no :/ Sep 16 08:18:17 ssd are not cheap Sep 16 08:18:23 I should have waited for the T101MT...that comes with a linux supported gpu :p Sep 16 08:19:18 and a keyboard? Sep 16 08:19:22 yup Sep 16 08:19:47 i have been thinking about getting a T101mt Sep 16 08:19:48 what a shame that manufacturers had to replace gma 500 by worse gpu, just because of crappy driver support Sep 16 08:20:09 how much is a t101mt Sep 16 08:20:32 here my T91MT was 499€ so I think t101 has the same price tag Sep 16 08:20:56 about $700 AUD Sep 16 08:20:56 whoop Sep 16 08:21:02 thats a lot Sep 16 08:21:07 however this is not a great netbook on the "touch" aera Sep 16 08:21:19 resistive display Sep 16 08:21:22 i have a simple netbook Sep 16 08:21:26 aspire one Sep 16 08:21:27 bad brightness Sep 16 08:21:33 though it has dd3 Sep 16 08:22:13 this is the only netbook to provide a touch interface though Sep 16 08:22:35 * vlj hopes that Nokia convert pc rumor are not just rumor Sep 16 08:25:14 nokia convert pc? Sep 16 08:25:33 tablet pc sorry Sep 16 08:28:14 re Sep 16 08:41:39 I havent heard any rumors Sep 16 08:52:14 vlj: hi.. about your bug with unwanted VT1 switch when pressing "windows" or "menu" or alt-tab. Could you try killing Xorg "sudo killall Xorg" and see if it fixes the issue ? Sep 16 08:52:22 it fixes it for me Sep 16 08:52:43 and it looks like a bug I encounter on Mandriva when working on speedboot / plymouth Sep 16 08:52:49 fcrozat: in fact it does not appear everytime I boot meego Sep 16 08:53:16 well, next time you have it, try to kill X server Sep 16 08:53:20 ok Sep 16 08:53:21 :) Sep 16 08:53:44 I need to find the bug I filled at mandriva and plymouth about it Sep 16 08:53:53 since meego is using a plymouth "derivative" Sep 16 09:13:50 anyone using meego on N900 having big problems? is it usable as a primary device? Sep 16 09:14:38 no Sep 16 09:14:51 which no? Sep 16 09:15:01 it's not usable as a primary device yet. Sep 16 09:15:16 okay Sep 16 09:16:51 hopes that it will be with meego 1.1? Sep 16 09:17:14 i would put better hopes on meego 1.2 Sep 16 09:17:42 estimates on it's schedule? Sep 16 09:18:18 keep in mind meego in this context is meego.com, not nokia's :) meego 1.2 is 6 months after 1.1 Sep 16 09:18:25 2011-04-27 Sep 16 09:18:44 Scelt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO0VoHtVdY8 - things have improved since this video though Sep 16 09:19:08 Stskeeps: yeah. I read about this being a volunteer project and nothing to do with official nokia products? Sep 16 09:19:19 right Sep 16 09:19:25 we do have skilled people paid to work on the n900 port though Sep 16 09:19:34 cool Sep 16 09:19:36 i wouldn't say 'volunter' Sep 16 09:19:46 if paid, then not :) Sep 16 09:21:34 Stskeeps: is this meego release always needed to be flashed when updating or does it work OTA? Sep 16 09:21:47 we don't test for updateability Sep 16 09:22:19 okay, so just flashing then Sep 16 09:22:41 well, writing to microsd Sep 16 09:22:54 oh, okay Sep 16 09:25:14 anyone has some hints about what stuff to build on top of gentoo to get a (minimal) meego? Sep 16 09:29:13 I'm just looking for a starting point, e.g. which wm and what meego-project I need to see something from meego on the screen Sep 16 09:29:35 (lost in all those meego-projects ;) ) Sep 16 09:29:40 well, it wouldn't be meego Sep 16 09:29:40 :P Sep 16 09:29:48 and meego is a wide term Sep 16 09:29:53 what's wrong with real meego? :) Sep 16 09:30:04 aholler: start with the kernel and work up ... :) Sep 16 09:30:31 kernel, qt, xorg and such is all working Sep 16 09:30:58 aholler: what you need is an package/architecture mapping Sep 16 09:31:13 so you can see which packages are needed in the various components Sep 16 09:31:25 rather that an alphabetic list of packages Sep 16 09:31:47 it's not written yet Sep 16 09:34:21 maybe I just will have a look at a started meego and do a ps. Seems to be the fastest way. Sep 16 09:40:31 btw, has anyone meego for an n700? ;) Sep 16 09:42:21 i'd like to know has anyone tried Meego on n770 or is it even possible Sep 16 09:42:28 don't bother Sep 16 09:42:28 :P Sep 16 09:42:30 honestly. Sep 16 09:42:38 too low memory and we don't have armv5 builds atm Sep 16 09:42:43 ok Sep 16 09:43:31 oh, I meant a n770 too Sep 16 09:46:39 Morning, all Sep 16 09:53:57 aholler: which meego, netbook or handheld ? Sep 16 09:54:45 slaine: I don't care atm ;) Sep 16 09:56:23 but something for a touch would be preferable, so I assume handheld. I will checkout a ready-to-use meego for the beagleboard Sep 16 09:57:45 * CosmoHill has a doggy called Bobby for the day Sep 16 10:18:27 aholler, kyb3R : n770 is a nokia headset :) you mean nokia 770 i think :) Sep 16 10:20:56 Khertan: yes, the one which use ugly gnome ;) Sep 16 10:21:44 (ugly in c-code, casts everywhere) Sep 16 10:23:26 means I'm full on nokias side with the switch to qt ;) Sep 16 10:24:08 hum .... doesn't made too much differences for me as i code in python :) Sep 16 10:25:47 qt has some advantages over gtk and some disadvantages Sep 16 10:31:54 The kickstart exclude-pkgs and the cost parameters to the repos how are they supposed to work ? Sep 16 10:32:41 If i have 2 respos with the same package version in both and have that package excluded from one its random which one it takes anyway. Sep 16 10:33:24 And the cost parameter dont seam to have any effekt at all or is the cost only when you have mirrors of the same repo ? Sep 16 10:34:49 argh, my head hurts when people use their own userpages in the wiki for meego stuff Sep 16 10:34:58 or even worse, talk pages Sep 16 10:35:07 THIS IS WRONG AND MY HEAD WILL IMPLODE Sep 16 10:35:24 don't get me started, maemo projects whose only "homepage" is a t.m.o. thread.... Sep 16 10:35:45 also same for version control Sep 16 10:36:26 my ex-Wikipedia admin pedantic and nitpicking uptight little head wants to smack people Sep 16 10:37:04 *SPANK* Sep 16 10:37:32 srsly http://wiki.meego.com/Special:RecentChanges Sep 16 10:37:57 also "Preview Changes" button has been invented Sep 16 10:50:36 Myrtti: so it turns out that he's in our chinese team... I think they would rather prepare something and *then* go live with it. Sep 16 10:50:53 I'm all for "educating" people Sep 16 10:52:01 lbt: Sandbox and/or Preview Changes Sep 16 10:52:18 not Sandbox... but yes I've mentioned it to him Sep 16 10:53:06 I suspect that in time our wiki will get the same kind of RecentChanges-patrollers as Wikipedia has, and that just makes patrolling for vandalism and spam so much harder Sep 16 10:53:07 he's VictorLiu in #meego-dev.... go say hello :) Sep 16 10:53:12 but yeah, thanks. Sep 16 10:54:30 uh, maybe I just idle there, haven't though to join -dev, thanks ;) Sep 16 10:55:30 :-> Sep 16 10:55:53 uh... Sep 16 10:56:31 lbt, what's the problem? Sep 16 10:56:33 He just idle there Sep 16 10:56:35 :P Sep 16 10:56:59 no problem... just... OK ... Sep 16 10:57:18 BTW I'm idle in 24 other chans... shall I tell you them ;) Sep 16 10:57:26 hell, I'm idle in this one ! Sep 16 10:58:05 lbt, that's right you make no contributions - get out of here! :P //sarcasm Sep 16 10:58:18 * lbt hangs his head Sep 16 10:59:37 the wiki behavios quite strange if you don't visit meego.com first Sep 16 10:59:46 you get "log in" and "log out" buttons Sep 16 10:59:49 I aggree Sep 16 10:59:55 agree Sep 16 11:00:12 wow, the compliance discussion just took a weird turn Sep 16 11:00:15 "potential of apps indirectly causing road deaths" Sep 16 11:00:30 cool Sep 16 11:00:33 o___O Sep 16 11:00:38 kick ass! Sep 16 11:01:20 1. email clients Sep 16 11:02:27 i'd say Sep 16 11:02:29 1. twitter app Sep 16 11:05:08 oh yea Sep 16 11:05:31 Vivek >> u there ? Sep 16 11:06:31 Stskeeps: Whoa. Sep 16 11:06:56 lokesh? Sep 16 11:07:03 where are you from? Sep 16 11:07:13 Stskeeps, thats why I asked my question last night in the tsg Sep 16 11:07:30 the difference between in car passenger entertainment and driver aids is immense Sep 16 11:08:06 theplic : I am from NOKIA Sep 16 11:08:21 oh Sep 16 11:08:25 Stskeeps: HUD Tetris :o Sep 16 11:08:25 sweaving left and right over the motorway to get the blocks in the right place Sep 16 11:08:29 cool Sep 16 11:08:37 why do u ask ? Sep 16 11:08:54 uhm i thought apart from being in nokia you were from india Sep 16 11:09:06 yeh i am :) Sep 16 11:09:14 where in india? Sep 16 11:09:37 I am from Hyderabad Sep 16 11:10:18 oh Sep 16 11:10:22 o___O Sep 16 11:10:23 cool Sep 16 11:11:05 lokesh: im from delhi Sep 16 11:11:27 cool.. whats your name ? I am sure its not theplic :) Sep 16 11:11:37 lol no its not Sep 16 11:11:47 i am raunaq Sep 16 11:12:09 cool. Nice meeting you Raunak :) Sep 16 11:12:38 :) Sep 16 11:13:02 so, a duck walks into a bar Sep 16 11:13:05 lbt, Stskeeps, Myrtti and any other long time maemo users, it would be good to get some input on this epic thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62347 Sep 16 11:15:20 lbt: my response would be so epic it's not publishable Sep 16 11:15:25 grrr Sep 16 11:15:31 lcuk: ^ Sep 16 11:15:52 amjad: are you there? Sep 16 11:16:40 Myrtti, thats a shame, you had your 770 for ages, it would be good to know what got you into it in the first place Sep 16 11:16:52 lcuk: ok, since you insist Sep 16 11:18:25 "the ability to IRC in the loo without taking my laptop with. Also, the valentine theme. http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/2061502377/" Sep 16 11:19:07 best reason. ever. Sep 16 11:19:15 dang, that's a lot of wasted screen estate. Sep 16 11:20:02 that's one opinion Sep 16 11:20:30 SwedeMike, life. styles change but Myrtti's pink stays the same :P Sep 16 11:20:59 lcuk: pmo? what's that? Sep 16 11:21:27 Virtual Keyboard ♥ Sep 16 11:21:35 that baby had all I needed. Well almost Sep 16 11:21:43 lbt, who mentioned pmo? Sep 16 11:22:12 its projects.maemo.org in my glossary anyway Sep 16 11:22:54 * lbt has a natural aversion to typing rmo... wait. gmo..... no..... 6mo Sep 16 11:23:24 my fingers know what it does to my brain.... it's a defense mechanism Sep 16 11:25:07 keyboard shortcuts in the terminal ♥ Sep 16 11:25:11 * lbt just ROFLed.... Denise is doing accounts and just found how in Finland 5.00 - 3.27 = 2.05 Sep 16 11:25:13 ah, those were the days. Sep 16 11:26:35 ( make that 5.30 - 3.27 = 2.05 ) Sep 16 11:27:34 lbt: unless paid by card...? Sep 16 11:28:43 :) Sep 16 11:33:00 lbt: tell her she can claim it back at the veg section. 1) pick a potato 2) weight it and price it 3) if it costs >0.03 GOTO 1 4) go to the tills with nothing but the potato in your basket 5) offer cash 6) ????? 7) PROFIT! Sep 16 11:33:24 s/>/=>/ Sep 16 11:33:24 Myrtti meant: lbt: tell her she can claim it back at the veg section. 1) pick a potato 2) weight it and price it 3) if it costs =>0.03 GOTO 1 4) go to the tills with nothing but the potato in your basket 5) offer cash 6) ????? 7) PROFIT! Sep 16 11:33:42 * lbt plans chip butties!!!! Sep 16 11:34:34 now she has a receipt with 3 items and 6 different VAT lines ... she loves it really Sep 16 11:37:06 woohoo .... I think mark has been nailed :) Sep 16 11:38:59 what i miss from the compliance threads is actual writeups of wording Sep 16 11:39:33 right now we're bikeshedding quite a fair bit Sep 16 11:39:34 :P Sep 16 11:40:29 hey, after that pig company thing I'm still in shock :P Sep 16 11:40:29 i really wonder what's wrong with taking an approach of 'any meego compliant app must install properly with it's repositories and package on all meego reference devices without any funny licensing messups' Sep 16 11:40:34 :P Sep 16 11:41:53 simple, it sounds to some as if they are not in control Sep 16 11:41:58 also, come on: we have advanced packaging systems, garage clients (OCS), even SAT solvers doing our dirty work, and we return to a compliance view that's basically "if rpm -i package.rpm" won't work on a meego device, you're not meego compliant" Sep 16 11:42:02 (when in fact, they are) Sep 16 11:42:42 well, a lot of embedded development mindset showing over the linux experience... Sep 16 11:44:38 yes thelpic now i am here Sep 16 11:44:53 I've been quoted :) Sep 16 11:45:32 CosmoHill: as long as it's not MISquoted... :) Sep 16 11:55:14 ooo Sep 16 11:55:21 D-Bus to become part of the kernel Sep 16 11:55:25 ccooke: oh... I didn't look for you here... you're too quiet Sep 16 11:55:35 *grin* Sep 16 11:55:40 Not had much to say recently Sep 16 11:55:56 Although I did actually say stuff in #maemo last week... Sep 16 11:56:28 (yay, getting full use from an n900 :-) Sep 16 11:57:30 Sep 16 11:58:09 fighting the compliance strangeness on meego-dev atm Sep 16 11:58:32 reminds me... Sep 16 11:58:48 "Benchmarks published by Alban with his kdbus work shows this implementation running nearly twice as fast when using KVM on i386 and up to three times faster with ARM on the Nokia N900 hand-held. In other benchmarks the gains were less but still quite significant in terms of performance increases. " Sep 16 11:58:53 Hmm really should add more fuel to the fire there. Sep 16 12:00:04 lbt, I'm thinking... Sep 16 12:00:32 uhm Sep 16 12:00:44 Stskeeps: that's what I thought .... Sep 16 12:00:55 lbt, It does seem like not allowing dependencies in compliant apps would be a step backwards, but what would compliance bring us in a community application? Sep 16 12:01:15 credibility Sep 16 12:01:16 Some communioty apps (those which only need MeeGo core libs as dependencies) could be compliant Sep 16 12:01:16 did anyone actually -read- the spec? Sep 16 12:01:16 :P Sep 16 12:01:22 Stskeeps, Yeah Sep 16 12:01:33 Stskeeps: isn't this slashdot style? Sep 16 12:01:35 Stskeeps, I noticed there were some gaps "we'll fill this in later" Sep 16 12:02:30 dneary: this is a strategic step that places OSS-style apps on an equal MeeGo footing with non-OSS Sep 16 12:02:51 no, but seriously, i can't find the places all you guys are talking about Sep 16 12:02:53 it will be useful in working on app stores in the future Sep 16 12:03:03 i see allowance for third party complaint libraries Sep 16 12:03:31 Stskeeps: I think by now this is about the expressed intent to define compliance in this way Sep 16 12:03:52 if we could see the current draft... like if it was on a wiki... we'd see it there Sep 16 12:03:58 but it's secret Sep 16 12:04:02 :D Sep 16 12:04:23 (ie being worked on on a PC, probably in .doc format) Sep 16 12:04:42 ok, so, where did this intent start? Sep 16 12:04:50 cos i don't see it in the draft published Sep 16 12:04:55 in fact, it takes a sane attitude Sep 16 12:04:58 lbt, While it is certainly useful to say "most Open Source apps will use dependencies rather than static linking or rolling everything up, therefore this strategy hurts Open Source apps most", I don't think it's accurate to characterise this as "open source vs commercial" Sep 16 12:05:16 dneary: no, but it's shorted Sep 16 12:05:18 r Sep 16 12:05:40 By the way, the Maemo community meeting's just starting on #maemo-meeting - if you have any goals for Maemo that you'd like to see happen in the next month or two, now's the time Sep 16 12:05:58 ta Sep 16 12:06:18 lbt: can you point out to me in http://wiki.meego.com/images/MeeGo-Compliance-Spec-1.0.80.8.pdf what exactly the problems are? Sep 16 12:06:44 I'll look Sep 16 12:06:46 but.... Sep 16 12:07:12 let's pretend i'm ignoring the entire thread Sep 16 12:07:13 I can point you to Mark, Arjan etc's comments on the ml which reflect what will happen in the next draft Sep 16 12:09:59 and let's ignore the dotted package name issue, which is just a wtf.. Sep 16 12:10:00 :P Sep 16 12:13:40 i'm just really wondering where the discussion started, cos it sure wasn't the spec Sep 16 12:14:45 Stskeeps: page 4 line 70 Sep 16 12:15:32 lbt: yes, but page 7 line 157, and page 9 227 Sep 16 12:16:28 157 does not override 70 Sep 16 12:16:39 merely says "how" Sep 16 12:16:45 70/71 is very vague Sep 16 12:17:01 and as such, third party is described Sep 16 12:17:05 if it depends on it Sep 16 12:17:18 231 is interesting Sep 16 12:17:31 but very 'C' Sep 16 12:18:11 shared libraries/services Sep 16 12:18:11 :P Sep 16 12:19:06 my point is: where in the bloody hell does it say we can't dep on 3rd party Sep 16 12:19:08 :P Sep 16 12:19:18 conceptually 231/232 allows and requires dependency on "other" packages Sep 16 12:19:39 * lbt wishes he needed less sleep Sep 16 12:20:49 but....ffs.... why is Mark (I assume he's the author) not referencing this Sep 16 12:20:54 * CosmoHill darts lbt Sep 16 12:21:22 lbt: was mwichmann originally uploading Sep 16 12:21:29 just checked... yes Sep 16 12:21:37 no title page on doc ... mutter Sep 16 12:22:21 Stskeeps, It definitely was the spec Sep 16 12:24:31 i'm going to have to read the thread all over. Sep 16 12:25:13 3rd party apps must only depend on the core components or on things that are included with the app. Sep 16 12:25:14 not other (4th party?) things. Sep 16 12:25:16 Arjan Sep 16 12:25:22 7/9/10 00:29 Sep 16 12:25:43 and yes... looks like that is the start of it Sep 16 12:25:52 lbt: stop ignoring queries :p Sep 16 12:26:11 I'm not... Sep 16 12:26:14 where? Sep 16 12:26:20 there -> Sep 16 12:27:08 ok, so, let's step back a bit: arjan isn't the head of this process, but the spec obviously says something that is not in line with what he says Sep 16 12:27:19 yes Sep 16 12:29:40 * Stskeeps sits down and writes a calm email Sep 16 12:31:24 Are they using the word "app" to describe "packages" Sep 16 12:31:42 Stskeeps: once you've finished the email go and have a cup of tea and read it when you get back Sep 16 12:32:09 * CosmoHill goes to take the dog for a walk Sep 16 13:06:59 http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-September/005809.html Sep 16 13:12:50 GAN900: you about? Sep 16 13:13:19 moo lardman Sep 16 13:13:24 hey Stskeeps :) Sep 16 13:14:01 was just looking at whether I can make it over for the Meego summit, and saw that GAN will be appearing in person, so thought I should double check ;) Sep 16 13:15:58 unfortunately I'm going to India the next week and I also have a meeting on the 17th, so will have to see if I can juggle work and make it over for a day or two Sep 16 13:16:26 argh.. why is meego-dev list used to actually send patches ? Sep 16 13:16:44 Intended purpose? Sep 16 13:16:44 odin_: because it's for the development of meego? Sep 16 13:16:54 it's not a bikeshedding list, despite what it feels like Sep 16 13:17:39 I have 1408 unread messages under my MeeGo label in Gmail :P Sep 16 13:18:05 But I'm signed up for all the mailing lists. :P Can't read all the junk that goes through :P Sep 16 13:19:41 surely it should be use the OBS and create a friggin' SR for all to manage and see Sep 16 13:19:58 OBS? Sep 16 13:20:06 You mean like, the one no one can see? Sep 16 13:20:17 Well, except for those that have been given an account Sep 16 13:20:20 it is for the discussion of the development of meego Sep 16 13:20:21 :P Sep 16 13:20:40 odin_: it's also the perfect place to send patches cos developers are on there ;) Sep 16 13:20:50 ah that is the point you see... the close OBS system that is priviate that the elite have access too... hehe I jest.... I'm sure it will be sorted in the next 12 months Sep 16 13:21:10 the openSUSE model is perfect but not what meego is using right now Sep 16 13:21:48 the opensuse model works when there's a shitload of resources Sep 16 13:22:31 does opensuse have more money then ? Sep 16 13:22:39 no, they have a lot of sponsors Sep 16 13:23:15 that implies they have access to a lot more money Sep 16 13:23:21 and the main principle is that build.meego.com are for people who is on some kind of meego team Sep 16 13:23:40 there is no team, only one community Sep 16 13:23:48 uhm, there is still a project Sep 16 13:23:54 and workgroups, etc Sep 16 13:24:20 the risk is that people bring down the project ability to build in time by overloading Sep 16 13:24:33 instead of letting the resource being used for what it's supposed to be used for Sep 16 13:24:38 Stskeeps, that's silly. People should still be able to VIEW it Sep 16 13:24:45 Termana: i don't disagree with that Sep 16 13:24:55 but currently, the sw isn't built like that (people are working on it) Sep 16 13:25:14 obs 2.1 was first step Sep 16 13:26:14 http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/08/15/obs-2-1-features-and-status/ and make a openness bug report Sep 16 13:26:33 I don't see what ACLs have to do with access Sep 16 13:26:55 anything which needs to be restricted should be on another OBS system (like "product obs") Sep 16 13:27:09 OBS will become open to readonly with 2.1 of the OBS Sep 16 13:27:48 odin_: build.meego.com -is- the product obs Sep 16 13:27:48 :P Sep 16 13:27:58 as in, the meego.com product Sep 16 13:28:06 and readonly is a ACL too Sep 16 13:28:13 odin_: the community OBS will map to the suse OBS style Sep 16 13:28:29 but we will partition factory builds on the core OBS Sep 16 13:30:46 Stskeeps, I think there already is a bug report - filed by quim - on openness of the OBS - AFAIK Sep 16 13:31:10 yes, but not this particular issue Sep 16 13:32:38 no build.meego.com must not be the product OBS as per wiki release engineering diagram http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Process Sep 16 13:33:20 there certainly should not be any technical reason to hold up openness due to some parties wanting to dual-purpose the OBS in this way Sep 16 13:33:45 we've had this discussion over and over again.. Sep 16 13:33:49 even read-only is an ACL. Sep 16 13:33:54 no the product OBS is for devices by vendors, not for meego core, as meego core is not a product Sep 16 13:34:10 odin_: it is by our glossary Sep 16 13:34:24 yes, it is - if builds are delayed/lagged, it affects a lot of people and anyone using it Sep 16 13:34:42 I filed bug BMC#6677 over read-only access to build.meego.com only a few days ago Sep 16 13:36:10 of course delayed and lagged things affect people Sep 16 13:36:23 lbt: is meego obs 2.0 or 2.1? Sep 16 13:36:25 but inhibiting access citing that reason is just not acceptable Sep 16 13:36:32 sigh Sep 16 13:36:32 2.0 still Sep 16 13:36:35 you're not listening, are you Sep 16 13:36:41 no you are not Sep 16 13:36:47 ACLs are first available in 2.1 and read-only is an ACL Sep 16 13:36:54 excuse after excuse Sep 16 13:37:07 cough Sep 16 13:37:17 odin_: openSUSE obs also needs an account. Sep 16 13:37:20 it's a bit rough claiming i'm making an excuse when i was one of the first to push this issue. Sep 16 13:37:52 X-Fade, anonymous access it not the issue, no access to the public is the issue, where is the public website to register for an account ? please don't compare to openSUSE in this way Sep 16 13:38:18 odin_: the issue is historical, opensuse never had the 'read only' thing as you could always get an account Sep 16 13:38:22 odin_: this is 100% your fault Sep 16 13:38:22 and build, too Sep 16 13:38:42 odin_: you have not provided an upstream patch to the OBS code for the feature Sep 16 13:38:53 OBS does not permit such an account Sep 16 13:38:53 which thing is my fault ? Sep 16 13:39:08 I don't see it as needed since the model I want is openSUSE with PUBLIC friggin' access Sep 16 13:39:10 now we're on a situation where we can't just give out accounts and patches and work is being done to provide read-only access Sep 16 13:39:19 not Nokia+Intel ideas on the matters Sep 16 13:39:42 security policy is such that we are not prepared to offer build-capable accounts on meego.com core OBS Sep 16 13:39:53 ah, yes Sep 16 13:39:54 odin_: Community OBS will be what openSUSE obs is. Public access. Sep 16 13:39:55 chroot builds Sep 16 13:40:07 and that is not what is being asked for by me Sep 16 13:41:03 no... you want a non-build account Sep 16 13:41:04 sure Sep 16 13:41:12 but OBS doesn't do them Sep 16 13:41:18 so submit a patch to OBS to allow them Sep 16 13:41:21 odin_: please be patient and let people do their work in order to provide the things you're asking for. read-only accounts doesn't exist until OBS 2.1 exists. it's not a conspiracy or a concious corporate choice, it's done from security pov (chroot builds), that we need to keep a service running (hence not upgraded yet) and that the work is being done by OBS Sep 16 13:41:22 and then we can talk Sep 16 13:41:45 (read only accounts still won't exist AFAIK - only anonymous) Sep 16 13:41:50 just deny the user from committing anything Sep 16 13:41:55 odin_: that's what doesn't exist, ffs Sep 16 13:42:40 odin_: the code is very recent and was made -because- we want to make things more open Sep 16 13:43:02 *nod* Sep 16 13:43:08 IIRC Nokia sponsored it Sep 16 13:43:13 I could be wrong Sep 16 13:45:07 so if I come up with patch that will inhibit building and commits (and any creation/modify operations) it _WILL_ be installed on the existing build.meego.com to allow access Sep 16 13:45:56 but it reads to me that you already have some existing plan which you will implement anyway Sep 16 13:46:13 read the capabilities of http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/08/15/obs-2-1-features-and-status/ Sep 16 13:46:38 yes I think I did a few weeks ago Sep 16 13:47:05 reading it doesn't actually help or solve any problem tho Sep 16 13:47:07 and we're not on 2.1 yet as we're about to put out a product Sep 16 13:47:15 / realse Sep 16 13:47:16 release Sep 16 13:47:55 so is there a roadmap / deadline for getting further delay/excuses out of the way? Sep 16 13:47:59 odin_: and I'm pushing 2.1 alpha onto the community OBS to help get it tested and ready for release Sep 16 13:48:12 i.e. I'm looking for commitment on the date of when, so I can come back Sep 16 13:48:26 by christmas for sure Sep 16 13:48:48 see you then... bring presents Sep 16 13:48:49 please get it announced Sep 16 13:49:30 don't care when the date it, just that you stick to it and the matter becomes priority 1 Sep 16 13:49:53 sure mate... the whole project is here just for you ... whatever you say... :) Sep 16 13:50:24 given everything that has been said about the efforts being put in please be a *lot* more courteous Sep 16 13:50:38 not really but it getting fucking tiring waiting for supposedly straightforward matters to be resolved Sep 16 13:50:54 except it isn't straightforward and you'd know that if you had looked at the OBS code Sep 16 13:51:20 or at the organisational needs to get this done in a proper way Sep 16 13:52:05 what I see if the entity "meego" making it more complex than it needs to be Sep 16 13:52:10 s/if/is/ Sep 16 13:52:10 odin_ meant: what I see is the entity "meego" making it more complex than it needs to be Sep 16 13:52:44 on many levels Sep 16 13:53:12 no, you just don't seem to understand the actual complexity of getting some things on the road and done properly Sep 16 13:53:49 done property is a matter of opinion Sep 16 13:54:27 odin_: it's been explained enough. I hope it eventually does what you need. Thanks Sep 16 13:54:30 * CosmoHill returns Sep 16 14:01:39 lardman, assuming I'm sponsored. Sep 16 14:02:59 GAN900: ah ok Sep 16 14:03:26 Stskeeps, maybe someone should try to explain simply meego organization as for me too it s look like really too much complex too (i didn't judget that it should be or not complex, i just didn't understand the organization) Sep 16 14:03:38 there is sponsoring ? Sep 16 14:04:34 Khertan: in this particular instance (re OBS access) it's typical IT procedures :P Sep 16 14:05:35 yep ... so not simple for non it guys :) Sep 16 14:05:41 s/non/no Sep 16 14:06:01 The MeeGo Build Service system is where MeeGo Core is built and is open to anyone who earns commit rights to a MeeGo package. Sep 16 14:06:40 that is clear :) Sep 16 14:07:15 Khertan: any particular parts you'd like to know about? i can probably claim to have some kind of understanding of how http://meego.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/image_post_width/users/u24/MeeGo_setup_8jun2010.png works in practice now :P Sep 16 14:12:47 no specially ... this just that currently for me the meego organisation look like a black box ... Sep 16 14:13:14 but maybe because i didn't take the time to follow enough meego mailing list Sep 16 14:13:37 or maybe explaination is diffucult to get :) Sep 16 14:13:47 but your scheme resume things well :) Sep 16 14:13:49 thx Sep 16 14:14:00 Khertan: distribution development is most visible on meego-commits, release engineering on wiki and on repo.meego.com + mailing lists Sep 16 14:14:12 QA has a very visible wiki page with a lot of testing work as well Sep 16 14:14:32 commit rights have not really been earnt... the major sponsors put their people in at the top, who then elected/promoted the people they saw fit, etc.... maybe someday in the future it would be correct to day commit rights were earnt, once there is a health public vote procedure with a decent spread of non-nokia/intel affiliated people in the decision council, please don't think anything was earnt at this time Sep 16 14:15:10 odin_: you don't think people had to earn based on merit within companies too? and what were they supposed to do, set up an election instead of just getting started on the project? Sep 16 14:15:32 I am not knocking the affair just calling to account what I see as inappropriate use of the term Sep 16 14:17:43 hey I'm not able to scrutineer the internal process (not that I'm complaining on that) but for you to try and presume what I must think or not-think of how the process inside a corporation may have occured is silly Sep 16 14:22:03 careful you are not believing your own marketing/propaganda mantra too much in these early stages, the goal is that you will need to earn your commit rights, but at this time the committees are still debating the finer points in the committees about important matters Sep 16 14:22:34 hi Sep 16 14:29:26 Are you folks planning to merge the kdbus code into meego 1.1? Or is it more likely for 1.2 Sep 16 14:30:03 That's just a proof of concept at the moment ScottishDuck Sep 16 14:30:12 yeah I read the article Sep 16 14:30:20 but it's interesting work Sep 16 14:30:42 indeed, but a bit early for a 1.1 inclusion I'd have thought Sep 16 14:30:56 I think 1.1 in feature freeze anyway Sep 16 14:31:27 yeah I think so Sep 16 14:34:27 is there a list of packages we have for meego? Sep 16 14:34:39 open repo.meego.com Sep 16 14:34:39 :P Sep 16 14:34:57 right, let's see waht python stuff we have there. Sep 16 14:36:01 hmm, wonder why nokia don't have a 1.0.90.2 build Sep 16 14:36:36 nice, so we have twisted Sep 16 14:36:36 of which? Sep 16 14:36:44 n900? this week was hosed Sep 16 14:37:13 ah Sep 16 14:38:28 sivang, but pyqt4 still missing :) Sep 16 14:38:37 Khertan: oh :/ Sep 16 14:39:21 Khertan: and pyside seems missing as well, but I heard packages are coming soon Sep 16 14:39:49 sivang, yep missing too ... but in progress Sep 16 14:40:10 but to be honest, i didn't think pyside is ready for making end user apps Sep 16 14:40:11 :) Sep 16 14:40:51 of course if noone use it, bugs will not be found and so not fixed Sep 16 14:40:58 Khertan: Well, I made sure we have twisted since I am going to make a user app using it PySide , a simple GUI directory syncer Sep 16 14:41:27 Khertan: I am going to try and change this and we gave some traction with some PyQt users getting interested as apparent on the mailing list. Sep 16 14:41:35 Khertan: s/gave/gave/ Sep 16 14:41:40 johd: //have/ :) Sep 16 14:41:43 err Sep 16 14:41:46 Khertan: ^ Sep 16 14:42:03 Khertan: there's help needed with docs, are you interested? :) Sep 16 14:42:03 who is the master at using AAVA ? Sep 16 14:42:09 I need help Sep 16 14:42:20 ah, I woulld love to get an AAVA giant phone :) Sep 16 14:42:29 event-driven networking engine ... didn't you twisted before :) Sep 16 14:42:35 seems interesting Sep 16 14:42:57 sivang, sorry i already didn't have enought time to finish my project :) Sep 16 14:43:11 Khertan: hehe, I did - http://sivang.blogspot.com/2009/08/twisted-based-directory-and-file.html Sep 16 14:43:21 Khertan: I'm going to build up a GUI on top of that providing progress and control Sep 16 14:43:35 Khertan: as an example for a real world app using PySide Sep 16 14:44:33 is there any kind of "emulator" or environment for meego? Sep 16 14:45:54 sure Sep 16 14:45:56 sivang, once pyside bugs i report will be fixed in #maemo repository (or meego) i ll propable port Khweeteur to pyside just to play after with qtmobility instead of playing with dbus for requesting network connection Sep 16 14:45:57 search wiki for qemu Sep 16 14:46:14 sivang, http://gitorious.org/khweeteur Sep 16 14:46:35 Khertan: mairas was working on pyside for meego, i think Sep 16 14:46:46 still is :) Sep 16 14:47:13 Stskeeps: but ti requires VT no? :) Sep 16 14:47:17 (emulation) Sep 16 14:47:30 sivang: sure, but hopefully the n900 qemu should come along soon Sep 16 14:48:03 Stskeeps, yes i know ... help me many times with problems i got with pyside bugs or wrong use :) Sep 16 14:48:10 ah :) Sep 16 14:48:21 * Stskeeps ponders if he has cash enough for a good pizza Sep 16 14:48:47 want me to mail you one from .it? Sep 16 14:48:57 no, loathe italian pizza Sep 16 14:48:57 :P Sep 16 14:49:00 Stskeeps: and it would not require VT? could emulate like the Symbian emulator with the qt sdk ? runs on my ppor netbook without problem Sep 16 14:49:02 lol Sep 16 14:49:05 sivang: it's arM :) Sep 16 14:49:09 hehe Sep 16 14:49:13 yes, I know, we talked about this already Sep 16 14:49:41 while trying to found a good python editor ... trying eclipse ... 45min to install, 20min to try to install pydev and theim claim it s not possible due to a missing depandancy in eclipse repository Sep 16 14:49:42 lol Sep 16 14:49:44 next :) Sep 16 14:50:13 i believe i ll port KhtEditor for desktop pc :) Sep 16 14:51:02 Khertan: use vim :) Sep 16 14:51:08 best python editor ever, or emacs Sep 16 14:51:19 didn't like emacs ... too slow Sep 16 14:51:30 yes, but vim is cool Sep 16 14:51:49 hum ... does there is a pylint integration ? Sep 16 14:52:38 Khertan: I think so Sep 16 14:52:57 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=891 Sep 16 14:53:00 Khertan: ^ ? Sep 16 14:53:11 hum maybe i should try to configure it so :) Sep 16 14:53:24 but for n900 khteditor is the best :) Sep 16 14:53:32 Sep 16 14:53:32 :) Sep 16 14:53:41 Khertan: heh, it is on the repo right? I'll try to install Sep 16 14:54:17 on maemo repo yes ... Sep 16 14:54:23 in extras-devel Sep 16 14:55:53 it s not the last version ... Sep 16 14:56:10 but there isn't too many modifications since i push it Sep 16 14:56:41 Khertan: ok Sep 16 14:57:54 sivang, http://gitorious.org/khteditor Sep 16 14:57:55 :) Sep 16 14:58:08 Sep 16 14:58:09 :) Sep 16 14:58:14 :) Sep 16 14:59:47 i disabled extras Sep 16 14:59:54 need to enable and install Sep 16 15:00:20 I wish there could be a feature "this app found in repo X" would like to enable it to get the app? Sep 16 15:00:23 :) Sep 16 15:00:27 maybe a suggestion for meego Sep 16 15:04:06 ned? mrshaver? Sep 16 15:09:27 heya... got a question... are there 64-bit package of the MeeGo development stuff? For instance I am looking at the image creation tools at http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/ubuntu/10.04 and I see only an i386 dir. Sep 16 15:10:31 or for that matter, where are the Debian rules stuff in order to build from source? Sep 16 15:11:19 I see the ".orig.tar.gz" files but not the dsc or diff files. Sep 16 15:17:24 but there is an amd64 in the Debian directory... maybe that will work :) Sep 16 15:19:07 sivang, eric4 is quite good :) Sep 16 15:23:34 Khertan: oh true! Sep 16 15:23:40 Khertan: nice editor Sep 16 15:25:20 X-Fade: did you disable atrium? Sep 16 15:32:49 any thoughts on the 64-bit *ubuntu packages? Sep 16 15:39:55 or the source packages? Sep 16 15:40:08 Stskeeps: is there any doc I can read on setting up qemu for meego? Sep 16 15:40:26 well, there *is* one... but I haven't made it work :-P Sep 16 15:42:45 GordonS: you mean you're working on packages for an environment for meego? Sep 16 15:42:57 or did I misread a lot? Sep 16 15:43:13 you mean my question before? I'm trying to run the image creator, and my host system is x86_64 Sep 16 15:43:19 oh Sep 16 15:43:22 so is mine Sep 16 15:43:50 but that is different from the qemu thing Sep 16 15:43:52 but I am wondering if there is an environment for meego, like google made for android ... complete with screen and keyboards :) Sep 16 15:44:04 one sec Sep 16 15:46:49 slavik: don't suppose your machine has an Intel video chipset? Sep 16 15:47:08 GordonS: no :( Sep 16 15:47:34 GordonS: nvidia mobile, nvidia 8800gts and a radeon 200ixp or whatever mobility Sep 16 15:48:53 one sec Sep 16 15:49:27 http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_the_MeeGo_SDK_for_Linux Sep 16 15:49:33 may the force be with you :-S Sep 16 15:50:21 With meego can you run java jars? Sep 16 15:52:29 jars that conform to which runtime ? J2ME ? J2SE ? Dalvik ? Sep 16 15:53:33 you might have a chance with J2SE if openjdk is in the repo Sep 16 16:22:19 GordonS: thank you :D Sep 16 16:24:42 GordonS: any clue if x86_64 will be a problem? Sep 16 16:28:10 x86_64 for which system? Sep 16 16:30:22 wmarone: linux, ubuntu to be exact Sep 16 16:30:24 no idea Sep 16 16:30:33 I have never managed to get it to work... Sep 16 16:30:43 ok Sep 16 16:30:46 but then I am also trying to run 1.0.80 or 1.0.90 Sep 16 16:30:54 because I need it for a project Sep 16 16:30:56 x86_64 is not supported at this time for MeeGo development Sep 16 16:31:02 gah Sep 16 16:31:13 it -might- work, but you're on your own Sep 16 16:31:22 do you know where the Debian-flavoured source packages are? Sep 16 16:31:24 I recommend using VirtualBox Sep 16 16:31:32 source packages for what? Sep 16 16:31:43 VirtualBox doesn't work worth @%*(@ for Meego IME, nor does VMware Sep 16 16:31:54 I know Sep 16 16:31:56 wmarone: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/tools/repos/ Sep 16 16:32:10 I am trying to run the image creator Sep 16 16:32:17 ah Sep 16 16:32:30 there are Debian 64-bit packages, but not Ubuntu Sep 16 16:32:41 won't those work for you? Sep 16 16:32:45 and the Debian packages would probably work, but... I'd rather get the dependencies right Sep 16 16:32:50 mismatched glibc and all Sep 16 16:32:54 ah Sep 16 16:32:58 it probably will though Sep 16 16:33:26 I ended up doing image generation on a Fedora image Sep 16 16:33:32 err, Fedora VM Sep 16 16:33:39 and all dev work in Ubuntu Sep 16 16:33:47 I would be happy to build from source or whatever but there are no .dsc files up there Sep 16 16:34:08 well there are tarballs for mic2 and whatnot at your link Sep 16 16:34:17 ah Sep 16 16:34:19 between having a 64-bit host and not having anything with Intel video I've been tearing my hair out ;-P Sep 16 16:34:26 yeah it's frustrating Sep 16 16:34:38 and with the image creator, I can actually build one for nVidia :) Sep 16 16:35:19 I suppose I'm just too used to working around things Sep 16 16:35:32 so am I... I've just not been very successful this time :-S Sep 16 16:35:47 I managed to get the netbook image running in VMware at one point, but it was SLOOOOWWWW Sep 16 16:35:53 sure Sep 16 16:36:06 and I've never managed to get the handset image to work worth anything - not even on a borrowed machine with Intel video :-P Sep 16 16:36:10 vmware doesn't provide hardware 3D support to linux VMs Sep 16 16:36:16 heh Sep 16 16:36:17 it "kinda" does Sep 16 16:36:23 but apparently not really Sep 16 16:36:29 I've got the xephyr setup working on my macbook Sep 16 16:36:54 for both netbook and handset, though the SDK images are oooooold Sep 16 16:36:58 and I followed the qemu instructions with the handset image - and choosing "install" just gives me a black screen Sep 16 16:37:08 yeah, I am trying to run 1.0.90 at this point Sep 16 16:37:14 my project needs the newer Mobility Sep 16 16:37:41 I wish there was a cheaper handset dev platform Sep 16 16:37:54 n900 or beagleboard Sep 16 16:37:54 :P Sep 16 16:38:08 well yeah, but neither have multitouch Sep 16 16:38:17 point Sep 16 16:38:17 :P Sep 16 16:38:37 other than that I do plan on getting a beagleboard xM soon :) Sep 16 16:38:58 but qemu/kvm can fake a 32bit CPU in full virt mode, no? Sep 16 16:39:40 fake yes, but it's achingly slow Sep 16 16:40:15 wmarone: how achingly, I have a quad 2.4GHz 8GB RAM system at home, still slow? Sep 16 16:40:48 hmm, well it might go faster Sep 16 16:40:49 i find the problem with emulation not to be the speed, but picking up my desktop and changing orientation is a bit tiring Sep 16 16:41:19 wmarone: the Archos generation 8 tablets will have multitouch and an SDE firmware is expected somewhen soon too Sep 16 16:41:23 I haven't thrown QEMU at my desktop, but I still have the virtualbox layer there Sep 16 16:41:40 SDE firmware == open bootloader, arbitrary kernel, you own the device Sep 16 16:41:41 dm8tbr: has archos stopped fighting the community? Sep 16 16:41:50 wmarone: yes two generations ago Sep 16 16:41:50 ok Sep 16 16:42:05 can X be built with 3D acceleration for the hardware ? Sep 16 16:42:10 they simply strip out the DRM bits and there it goes Sep 16 16:42:42 wmarone: yes, our current FroYo build has SGX and as soon as Obko is back we will have meego with SGX too I hope Sep 16 16:42:58 oh Sep 16 16:43:04 current hardware is still resistive touchscreen though Sep 16 16:43:15 but the new A43/70/101 should be MT Sep 16 16:43:26 how'd you get the drivers built? Sep 16 16:43:40 download TI-blob, install, bliss Sep 16 16:43:46 ahh Sep 16 16:44:04 also archos provides the kernel part of the drivers under GPL Sep 16 16:44:26 lcuk: http://www.bash.org/?930008 when it gets approved. :) Sep 16 16:44:33 dm8tbr: yeah, most do. the issue is the TI-blob, but that sounds good Sep 16 16:44:54 slavik, hm? Sep 16 16:45:06 wmarone: well, keep an eye on the openaos.org blog then. we'll be screaming on the top of our lungs once the SDE for gen8 comes out. ;) Sep 16 16:45:10 your comment about the orientation of the desktop Sep 16 16:45:49 slavik, ahh Sep 16 16:45:51 that was tame Sep 16 16:46:00 funny as hell though Sep 16 16:46:02 :D Sep 16 16:46:07 definately made my day a bit better Sep 16 16:46:17 heh glad to hear it Sep 16 16:46:29 I would still like to know when Nokia or anyone makes a dualcore ARM phone/netbook though. Sep 16 16:46:37 hmm Sep 16 16:46:42 but NDAs seem very popular these days Sep 16 16:47:12 the current devices are technically more than dual core - one core cpu, one powervr core and whatever others are speciialist processing units Sep 16 16:47:32 just like the old amigas :) specialist units working together Sep 16 16:47:33 right, but I am talking about the likes of OMAP4 Sep 16 16:47:41 2 A9 cores Sep 16 16:47:50 hold up, this isnt windows Sep 16 16:47:56 it doesnt need a dedicated AV core Sep 16 16:48:19 Winders Sep 16 16:48:23 although there was a company introducing a new ARM cpu which could do 2GHz on clock or something, that could probably make it to desktop or something. Sep 16 16:48:29 :P Sep 16 16:48:30 which would be neat Sep 16 16:48:32 the multicore devices will be good if they can be fed with data Sep 16 16:49:01 which areas of linux are specifically geared and optimised for multicore at the moment? Sep 16 16:49:12 lcuk: that's easy, buy 1000 phones and make a cluster out of them Sep 16 16:49:24 or a cluster over 3g :D Sep 16 16:49:26 slavik, yeah I already went over that scenario Sep 16 16:49:29 and am working on it Sep 16 16:50:11 :D Sep 16 16:51:04 I havent actually looked at hte qt multicore functionality Sep 16 16:51:18 and whether it makes use of decent threading Sep 16 16:53:49 20100907 is the latest handset image? Sep 16 16:54:08 for n900, yes Sep 16 16:54:17 ta Sep 16 17:17:49 wb DawnFoster Sep 16 17:19:00 hey stskeeps Sep 16 17:20:56 I don't know what to think of these repositories popping up every day Sep 16 17:21:04 I wouldn't install anything from them Sep 16 17:21:22 repos what? where? Sep 16 17:21:26 the netbook ones? Sep 16 17:21:54 there's one russian one and one I guess british Sep 16 17:22:11 it's just like maemo in 2007 again Sep 16 17:23:26 Myrtti: well, there aren't any real repos for applications Sep 16 17:23:26 well, that's how it goes when we don't have anything like Extras, etc yet.. Sep 16 17:24:00 Stskeeps: yup Sep 16 17:26:15 Myrtti, how do you know which country the repos are from? ie, does the british one play the national anthem when you connect? Sep 16 17:26:42 lcuk: "I guess british" Sep 16 17:27:14 * Stskeeps wonders idly what's with the intense html mails some people tend to use Sep 16 17:27:16 ie. I don't. the domain names of said repos just kind of gives hints about possible "national origin" Sep 16 17:27:35 Stskeeps: "Microsoft Outlook" Sep 16 17:28:06 no, but this is like hardcore html mails :) Sep 16 17:28:13 Stskeeps: less configuring for the user - who reads mails in html form anyways ;) Sep 16 17:29:09 forced html mailing = lazy coding Sep 16 17:29:58 * kraiskil hopes MeeGo emailer client don't have html as default mail format Sep 16 17:35:56 Stskeeps, ? Sep 16 17:36:08 no, not Sep 16 17:36:09 :P Sep 16 17:39:12 random question, does anyone know if the activesync support in FroYo is open source or closed? Sep 16 17:46:49 mark skarpness appears to be trying to misquote everyone into defeat :D Sep 16 17:47:15 i'm a bit lost by now, tbh Sep 16 17:47:34 it's not rational afaict Sep 16 17:48:48 lbt: perhaps Mark is in marketing Sep 16 17:48:58 the counter-argument is just .... unqualified Sep 16 17:49:16 let's not make it about the person, please, let's make it about the principles. Sep 16 17:49:46 lbt: I really think Arjan and Graham had good points today Sep 16 17:49:51 each of us may be in a position to have to defend unpopular stances in our work, so Sep 16 17:50:16 Graham's point was interesting Sep 16 17:50:23 vendors will do stupid things anyway, a piece of paper does not stop them Sep 16 17:50:48 but my real concern is that they will bar any opensource app that builds upon the work of another Sep 16 17:51:06 lbt: s/opensource//g :P Sep 16 17:51:10 anyone who uses lcuk's libraries to ship a liqbase plugin Sep 16 17:51:14 well, if they do they are sliding to oblivion, right? Sep 16 17:51:17 static linking will save us all Sep 16 17:51:35 kfx: or that... which will kill us Sep 16 17:51:48 all apps coming from a repo will rely on core + that repo Sep 16 17:52:02 tekojo: I agree ... that's a given Sep 16 17:52:11 in practice that will happen a lot Sep 16 17:52:23 I'm not going to worry about it too much Sep 16 17:52:29 well, we can always try it out for 1.1 so we can learn the hard way why it's a bad idea Sep 16 17:52:32 :P Sep 16 17:52:34 and it can still happen if compliance permits 'proper' sw Sep 16 17:52:41 Stskeeps: exactly :) Sep 16 17:52:43 *BUT* Sep 16 17:52:58 if meego shoots proper software then there is no toehold Sep 16 17:53:08 there is no gentle easing open Sep 16 17:53:20 *that* worries me Sep 16 17:53:24 the thing is MeeGo needs to anticipate the most brilliantly stupid ideas people may have and try to stop them beforehand Sep 16 17:53:45 this leads to some overstatements and too detailed rules Sep 16 17:53:57 *nod* Sep 16 17:54:03 yup Sep 16 17:54:10 tekojo: right, and it still won't work, the stupidity will get in there Sep 16 17:54:10 you can't fix idiocy with policy Sep 16 17:54:24 the thing is that loosening this rool won't make a difference in that area Sep 16 17:54:28 berndhs: sure, I know, I work for Nokia :) Sep 16 17:54:38 as Stskeeps said, the spec doesn't forbid it Sep 16 17:54:43 just arjan Sep 16 17:54:56 what is it -exactly- the goal of the meego compliance sticker is, for apps? Sep 16 17:55:03 that's what i'm missing Sep 16 17:55:10 ovi Sep 16 17:55:17 ovi's going to run over it with vendor apis, for sure Sep 16 17:55:20 they will say "not compliant" bugger off Sep 16 17:55:24 well, if you are really just ignorant, you take the codebase, make a device and not call it meego Sep 16 17:55:28 so that doesn't even apply Sep 16 17:55:29 :P Sep 16 17:55:49 yes... so they'll run of with vendor apis Sep 16 17:55:56 and *STILL* won't allow Extras Sep 16 17:56:05 because "you're not compliant" Sep 16 17:56:15 it slams the door Sep 16 17:56:17 well Sep 16 17:56:24 my worry isn't actually extras and so on Sep 16 17:56:39 let's say an API like QML came about, on staging to be included to Qt Sep 16 17:56:53 where would this be added? it would be popular, of course, but where does it exist in meego ecosystem? Sep 16 17:56:58 actually as long as a device is compliant, and extras follows the compliance rules, who cares if there is a sticker if you can add repos? Sep 16 17:57:17 tekojo: because ovi will care Sep 16 17:57:28 is ovi running this project? Sep 16 17:57:34 Qt is not the best example, they actually have the candidate API system Sep 16 17:57:42 (serious question, how much "pull" do they have) Sep 16 17:57:45 no, Ovi is a store Sep 16 17:57:49 which means the very best of the extras apps won't get to the TV adverts Sep 16 17:58:01 s/ovi/random name/ Sep 16 17:58:05 tekojo: yes, but with a 6 month release cycle of meego, we won't see it for a while :P Sep 16 17:58:22 Stskeeps: neither do I see it on other distros Sep 16 17:58:34 true Sep 16 17:58:48 only if I run alphas and betas (like I do) Sep 16 17:59:36 actually, how does something like iphone solve this? Sep 16 17:59:42 i mean, we have unity3d Sep 16 18:00:15 iphone only has one commercial store Sep 16 18:00:26 you need something you go to Apple and negotiate Sep 16 18:00:28 right, but do they allow '3rd party dependancies'? Sep 16 18:00:49 AFAIK sandboxing Sep 16 18:01:08 but I'm not sure if there are exceptions Sep 16 18:02:01 Why are we pandering to operators in the spec? Sep 16 18:02:13 GAN900: hah... $$$$ Sep 16 18:02:27 I personally like being paid to work on OSS Sep 16 18:03:36 you won't, if you let them force you into making unsustainable products Sep 16 18:04:10 kfx: list the options in this space..... you won't get banned for flooding ;) Sep 16 18:04:36 its fine to pander to operators, just not in the technical spec Sep 16 18:05:07 exactly Sep 16 18:05:25 berndhs: http://www.mvista.com/download/author.php?a=39 ROFL.... "He has held a variety of technical and marketing positions" Sep 16 18:05:33 at least make the spec worth saving, even if the operaters booger it up with failed app-store clones you still have something to build on Sep 16 18:05:34 pandering to operators is bad as their intentions tend to be wholly opposite of that which does not suck Sep 16 18:06:16 lbt, while berndhs was spot on, go after the arguments, not the man :P Sep 16 18:06:35 it helps to understand his position Sep 16 18:06:57 of course - and affiliation Sep 16 18:07:24 ugh parallels 6 Sep 16 18:07:29 nothing wrong with marketing.... people look at it a different way and some may not even understand the tech Sep 16 18:07:37 the tools wont compile :/ Sep 16 18:07:41 actually I would rather take in from the point of view that MeeGo needs to go big, and that requires a lot of involved commercial players Sep 16 18:07:59 tekojo: yes Sep 16 18:08:03 which requires some rules to be set Sep 16 18:08:06 yes Sep 16 18:08:16 as said, otherwise se will do really tupid things Sep 16 18:08:20 and it needs to avoid forcing their hand Sep 16 18:08:30 big players won't go for it Sep 16 18:08:35 however.... Sep 16 18:08:43 playing the devils advocate, that we didn't exactly skyrocket the maemo platform by open source alone Sep 16 18:08:46 to avoid developers hands is what counts Sep 16 18:08:46 :P Sep 16 18:09:04 it also makes sense to not forbid the underlying development model that got us here Sep 16 18:09:10 to avoid tide of developer hands i mean Sep 16 18:09:22 the funny thing is that if I were at an operator, I wouldn't be jumping with joy at the limitations in that spec now Sep 16 18:09:39 tekojo: if we believe in the opensource "build on the work of others" then why do we prohibit it.... Sep 16 18:09:47 not even make it optional... Sep 16 18:10:24 but force it? Sep 16 18:10:33 I thought you were against forcing things :) Sep 16 18:10:35 no, sorry... Sep 16 18:10:43 the spec forces it off Sep 16 18:10:50 I want it optionally on Sep 16 18:11:01 I prefer no comment on it :) Sep 16 18:11:07 the spec prohibits sharing Sep 16 18:11:07 what was the key argument against 3rd party dependancies again? Sep 16 18:11:14 I want to permit optional sharing Sep 16 18:11:21 Stskeeps: ignorance? Sep 16 18:11:30 :) Sep 16 18:11:38 fear of the unknown ? Sep 16 18:11:44 Stskeeps: : "If compliance says that compliant apps can have external dependencies, then every compliant device MUST support those dependencies and ensure they are available to every device. That is the burden we are debating." Sep 16 18:11:49 lbt: damnit, he noticed the parts of the spec Sep 16 18:12:00 I don't see it limiting 3rd party deps if they come the same source Sep 16 18:12:08 Stskeeps: I did ram them in there Sep 16 18:12:23 speculation of maemo 5 pr 1.3 Sep 16 18:12:24 Stskeeps: has it changed? Sep 16 18:12:25 here we go again Sep 16 18:13:16 tekojo: well, that's what is implied by now Sep 16 18:13:32 that you can't have 3rd party deps, no matter what Sep 16 18:13:35 is there any rule that says a meego compliant device is NOT allowed to be able to install non-compliant packages? Sep 16 18:13:38 (just got stated as an error in spec) Sep 16 18:13:40 ali1234: no, thank god Sep 16 18:13:40 :P Sep 16 18:13:58 which brings me back to the question of what it even matters Sep 16 18:13:58 :P Sep 16 18:14:00 well then none of it matters, if people want packages with dependencies, they won't get a sticker.... big deal Sep 16 18:14:20 so it would be up to the user to solve dependancies? Sep 16 18:14:21 (want to make) Sep 16 18:14:55 no, it would be up to developers to provide a new package installer that handles dependencies (maybe you could even get it sneaked in as "compliant too) Sep 16 18:15:13 ali1234: good marketing could make it an advantage? "SlicedBread is Not Meego Compliant !" Sep 16 18:15:13 ali1234: ok Sep 16 18:15:28 I would rather think that the spec is trying to wiggle out of having to maintain every library out there Sep 16 18:15:57 lbt: i'm wondering if the resolution is that we make a bet that we will see immense problems with app stores over the 1.1 period.. if we do, they owe us a round of beer, if not, we owe them Sep 16 18:16:01 :P Sep 16 18:16:17 i mean, it's a 6 month one period Sep 16 18:16:18 :P Sep 16 18:16:36 there is clearly going to be a massive explosion of app stores Sep 16 18:16:46 it would actually help to hear what Mark Skaprness took as initial assumptions Sep 16 18:16:47 you'd bet a career of working on kinda-java for a beer? Sep 16 18:16:52 there are going to be multiple app stores? :S Sep 16 18:17:00 open sources is being marketed directly as "something that lets you make your own app store so you don't have to give a cut to anyone else" Sep 16 18:17:05 hopefully Sep 16 18:17:44 lbt: chances are i'd just go for obscure product development, or moving to the polish mountains if meego blows up Sep 16 18:17:48 :P Sep 16 18:17:56 also target audience is a question I haven't seen discussed Sep 16 18:18:11 If you want commercial interest, you can't have GPLv3 poking around Sep 16 18:18:53 hmm Sep 16 18:19:03 * lcuk reads logs Sep 16 18:19:15 ScottishDuck: i think that's a bit too late now Sep 16 18:19:17 you can make money with content and services without getting any from selling apps Sep 16 18:19:17 * CosmoHill wonders if he should do a lot of back ready and research Sep 16 18:19:21 or get drunk Sep 16 18:19:30 Stskeeps: yes, you could say that :P Sep 16 18:21:20 question: what good is open source and communal barn building if the principle devices make it an uphill struggle for the community to get their applications (which would work on the same principles as the core OS) onto the devices they are helping? Sep 16 18:21:53 most developers would use qt, i would guess Sep 16 18:21:54 :P Sep 16 18:21:58 it's no good at all, your time would be better served cracking vendor bootloader and putting your own meego fork on there Sep 16 18:22:46 thats not desired either Sep 16 18:23:17 lcuk: maybe not all vendors are about locking down+ Sep 16 18:23:19 ? Sep 16 18:23:43 tekojo, good, could you get a statement about nokia's intent? Sep 16 18:23:56 no, I'm watching television :) Sep 16 18:24:01 heh Sep 16 18:24:27 does any company know what their intent will be in 6 months ? Sep 16 18:24:49 how about from a strategy plan? Sep 16 18:24:58 what strategy :P Sep 16 18:25:01 ;) Sep 16 18:25:07 :) Sep 16 18:25:11 Stskeeps: powerpoints I presume Sep 16 18:25:17 tekojo, i actually like your answer a lot Sep 16 18:25:26 tekojo: :) Sep 16 18:25:31 a lot more than I initially thought Sep 16 18:25:34 lcuk: you like me watching television? Sep 16 18:25:56 no, about not all vendors are about locking down Sep 16 18:26:01 it would be good to ask them directly Sep 16 18:26:11 whether they would be interested in a truly open meego variant Sep 16 18:26:20 yes, there's that plural in there :) Sep 16 18:26:26 similar to how maemo is right now :) Sep 16 18:26:28 sure Sep 16 18:26:45 (open as in not locked down and easy to add community apps) Sep 16 18:27:46 and we come up with strong positive (as lbt has been pushing last few days) reasons and justifications as to why open platform is better Sep 16 18:28:07 it would be interesting to ask, yes Sep 16 18:28:09 rather than fighting and assuming its all going to be locked Sep 16 18:28:54 ie "is open source a sham to you, or do you want your device platform to encourage growth and innovation" Sep 16 18:29:04 wow, that's not a loaded question... Sep 16 18:29:17 :D isn't that what all polls are? Sep 16 18:29:43 lcuk: so you ask them if they are still beating their wives ? Sep 16 18:30:03 berndhs, i stopped a while ago thanks, the bruises have gone down Sep 16 18:31:02 Stskeeps, is it possible to include Intell AppUp store in vanilla MeeGo, or it's considered an added value? Sep 16 18:31:11 intel* Sep 16 18:31:14 tekojo, do you have a list of the various manufacturers and contact points we could put something together about this? Sep 16 18:31:46 lcuk: me not, and I don't think it would be proper with me working for a vendor :) Sep 16 18:31:49 lcuk: the more closed the average MeeGo implementation will be, the sooner a CyanoMeeGo will pop-up with a fully open extras of it's own Sep 16 18:32:09 reasonable enough tekojo, sorry to put you on the spot like that Sep 16 18:32:37 achipa, thats the point Sep 16 18:32:42 that encourages fragmentation Sep 16 18:32:46 lcuk: not sure who to ask either Sep 16 18:33:10 tekojo, i am sure we will find out Sep 16 18:34:22 its got to be entirely possible to come up with a blended approach like maemo has Sep 16 18:34:34 just much much slicker Sep 16 18:35:27 the thing is, nokia really really want you to write apps for ovi, and ovi covers symbian and others... hence Qt Sep 16 18:35:44 ali1234, and ovi and qt are totally totally awesome Sep 16 18:35:51 ali1234: this is not really about Qt Sep 16 18:36:00 i have 100000000% respect for both things Sep 16 18:36:18 it kind of is about Qt, because if you need to use some other library, then Qt has failed Sep 16 18:36:19 but I also think the little man who writes a cool little tool that happens to use a community library Sep 16 18:36:32 should have the same options as any big budget software shop Sep 16 18:36:35 and Qt *is* open source, after all Sep 16 18:36:55 ali1234, but new use cases come out every day Sep 16 18:36:55 ali1234: You could say it the other way round, too - if you don't need any other library - then it's an OS Sep 16 18:37:03 and a new class for doing XYZ Sep 16 18:37:08 gets made by me or you Sep 16 18:37:13 well, yeah, Qt *is* pretty much a whole OS :) Sep 16 18:37:13 and has to grow somewhere Sep 16 18:37:19 before it ends up in qt by default Sep 16 18:37:30 it's already a kitchen sink and yet it doesn't include half of what is needed Sep 16 18:37:53 what do you feel is missing? Sep 16 18:38:03 the Qt ideology isnt even up for discussion Sep 16 18:38:10 ali1234, there will always be something missing Sep 16 18:38:23 i'm geniunely interested is specific examples :) Sep 16 18:38:36 Stskeeps: Sep 16 18:38:37 Applications *MUST NOT* require (in RPM terminology) packages that are not themselves compliant. Sep 16 18:38:38 Applications that require (in RPM terminology) packages that cannot be provided MUST NOT be installed. Sep 16 18:38:39 you want a specific one I see now? - live wallpaper Sep 16 18:38:41 ali1234: just to pick the single biggest category on competing platforms - gaming oriented libs ? Sep 16 18:38:59 whole set of live wallpaper classes are needed in the meego we see today Sep 16 18:39:11 now those have to grow and evolve Sep 16 18:39:15 and be thoroughly tested Sep 16 18:39:18 hi, meego-n00b here. is it possible to use libmeegotouch without any meego sdk/chroot env? Sep 16 18:39:20 achipa: hmm... you feel that the Qt/3D and Qt quick stuff is not good enough? Sep 16 18:39:27 before any kind of meego compliance can be thought about Sep 16 18:39:32 lbt: your phrasing? Sep 16 18:39:35 ali1234: ? For what ? Sep 16 18:39:37 yes Sep 16 18:39:40 achipa: for making games Sep 16 18:39:52 proposed to reduce burden Sep 16 18:40:04 ali1234: try writing an Epic Citadel type of demo in it - you won't get far Sep 16 18:40:11 lbt where did you find that? Sep 16 18:40:12 ali1234: recording audio doesn't work right in qt46 Sep 16 18:40:13 ie "respect 404s... duh" Sep 16 18:40:17 tekojo: I wrote it Sep 16 18:40:24 ali1234: but if a beefed up tetris is enough... sure :) Sep 16 18:40:35 to blend in around line 157 Sep 16 18:40:44 ah Sep 16 18:40:49 berndhs: presumably that's a bug though :) Sep 16 18:40:59 yall need more cheesecake Sep 16 18:41:01 the point is: extensions will be created for the single case first. then they may be developed into a library. then they may evolve into operating system components. Sep 16 18:41:04 i mean, i know a lot of this stuff isn't finished yet, but neither is meego... Sep 16 18:41:12 ali1234: even good ole SDL and pygame are better suited in some aspects - but that is not the point... Sep 16 18:41:19 * tekojo cheesecake... kitchen Sep 16 18:41:26 food Sep 16 18:41:36 no comments.. hitting send Sep 16 18:41:38 NO ! I forbid you to mention food at this late hour ! Sep 16 18:41:54 * GAN900 had ribs for lunch. Sep 16 18:42:10 mushroom omelette.... on buttery bread sandwiches :) Sep 16 18:42:11 * lcuk rips out one of GAN900's ribs Sep 16 18:42:18 lbt: so it's you who is filling my lists inbox! Sep 16 18:42:20 i had egg fried rice before :D Sep 16 18:42:26 \o/ Sep 16 18:42:37 It's the worst when there's a new BBQ place up the street running their smokers all of the time and stinking up the whole block. Sep 16 18:42:49 :) Sep 16 18:42:49 no, that is actually the *best* Sep 16 18:43:02 I had a rather large chicken balti from tesco, with naan and bhajis Sep 16 18:43:13 mmmm....ribs Sep 16 18:43:26 nomnomnom indian Sep 16 18:43:35 tekojo: btw do you perchance know if there are any Nokians taking part in defining the compliance program ? Sep 16 18:43:51 (must... keep... mind... off... food Sep 16 18:44:01 achipa: no idea Sep 16 18:44:05 Stskeeps, you said something in backlog which is good I think Sep 16 18:44:07 Stskeeps well, we can always try it out for 1.1 so we can learn the hard way why it's a bad idea 20:52 Sep 16 18:44:08 Stskeeps :P Sep 16 18:44:32 we should be able to adapt things as we go along Sep 16 18:44:39 lbt o/ Sep 16 18:44:40 yeah, we'll mess up wetab real good ! :) Sep 16 18:44:41 and as yet nothing is fixed Sep 16 18:44:55 Tomaszd: \o Sep 16 18:44:57 achipa: i don't see anything in this epic citadel demo that couldn't be done with Qt... Sep 16 18:45:00 lbt, how's that desoldering pump ;) Sep 16 18:45:24 I refuse to think that repeating old mistakes and not learning from warnings is a good idea Sep 16 18:45:26 ali1234: Sorry ? Sep 16 18:45:44 "ah, there's some pressure build up in the drill hole" "nnaaaah, just keep on drillin'" Sep 16 18:45:50 BOOM Sep 16 18:46:09 ali1234: A 3D bind is NOT a game engine. Otherwise people wouldn't be making Ogre, Box2d and chipmunk bindings for Qt Sep 16 18:46:13 Myrtti, ++ Sep 16 18:46:48 Tomaszd: .... Sep 16 18:46:56 achipa: Qt has (or will have) scene graph, camera etc, so you could make a fps type engine in it quite easily Sep 16 18:47:01 :) Sep 16 18:47:04 ali1234, of course you can make and install the whole operating system inside a single binary Sep 16 18:47:06 Myrtti: it's natural when people are involved ;) Sep 16 18:47:57 kyb3R: no, that's the way of making people NOT to involve Sep 16 18:47:57 the libraries are there to allow ease of reuse of common coding issues, and like I said a little bit ago, new use cases emerge every day Sep 16 18:48:03 ali1234: no, seriously, believe me, I like Qt and all, but it's no game engine. Sep 16 18:48:40 if nobody gives a shit about warnings and guidance recognised experts of the subject gives, then we have less of them very soon Sep 16 18:48:41 99% of what makes that demo look cool is the well made models and textures Sep 16 18:48:51 and yes, I knew it was irony and sarcasm Sep 16 18:49:59 ali1234, and that 1% is impossible to understand stuff that should be abstracted away inside a nice polished documented api ;) Sep 16 18:50:21 meh, should take the bin out Sep 16 18:50:30 lcuk: yeah, like the ones in Qt/3D... Sep 16 18:50:49 you noticed a problem with it? Sep 16 18:50:58 if so, please have a go at fixing it! Sep 16 18:51:05 file bug reports, offer alternatives etc Sep 16 18:51:25 write a replacement library *grin* Sep 16 18:51:26 documented Sep 16 18:51:27 problem with what? Sep 16 18:51:57 ali1234, you had a sarcastic tone, apologies if misunderstood Sep 16 18:52:06 no i was being quite serious Sep 16 18:52:25 cool, does qt have support for online high score tables? Sep 16 18:52:27 or xyz Sep 16 18:52:53 or windows live interaction or wow stuff? Sep 16 18:53:36 ali1234: So, how does Qt/3D deal with game physics ? Characters walking around and stuff ? AI ? Input controls suited to games ? Sep 16 18:53:44 i'm sure Qt will have online highscores as soon as ovi has it :) Sep 16 18:54:18 in the meantime, you don't need very much from Qt in order to implement it, unless you want to write the backend in Qt (any why would you want to do that?) Sep 16 18:54:42 ali1234, people do the strangest things Sep 16 18:54:46 (i should know..) Sep 16 18:55:09 as for a the other thing, how many games out there use a shared library for their physics/AI/game logic? Sep 16 18:55:27 ali1234: in the open source world ? all of them Sep 16 18:55:29 i would really suck if all games used the exact same AI Sep 16 18:55:31 ali1234, box2d Sep 16 18:55:35 heh, open source games... good one :) Sep 16 18:55:36 lots of games use it Sep 16 18:55:42 (now i am being sarcastic) Sep 16 18:55:47 angry birds is based on it Sep 16 18:55:59 or something like it anyway Sep 16 18:56:04 ioquake, ogre3d, crystal space.... you name it Sep 16 18:56:08 take models, add weights Sep 16 18:56:09 bingo Sep 16 18:56:36 ali1234, look at how many games use SDL Sep 16 18:56:45 hmm let's see... ogre3d gives you scenegraph and geometry controls only... almost identical to what Qt/3D is supposed to do Sep 16 18:56:57 "almost" Sep 16 18:57:17 ioquake is completely self contained, afaik it doesn't require you to install some physical library/AI library etc first Sep 16 18:57:20 opengles is "almost" like opengl Sep 16 18:57:27 opengles rocks :D Sep 16 18:57:33 i do not doubt it! Sep 16 18:57:47 yeah, Qt/3D actually hides the differences between gl and gles... unlike ogre, which barely even works on gles Sep 16 18:58:04 ali1234: so, how's that skeletal animation in Qt/3D ? Sep 16 18:58:07 anyway, beer time Sep 16 18:58:13 who wants one? Sep 16 18:58:22 achipa: good question Sep 16 18:58:38 o/ Sep 16 18:58:44 however i don't see any skeletal animation in that demo :) Sep 16 18:58:50 do you want a warm or a cold one? Sep 16 18:59:03 ali1234: demo of what ? Sep 16 18:59:07 ali1234, skeletal animation will be cool to make living walking meegon characters Sep 16 18:59:09 achipa: epic citadel Sep 16 18:59:13 lcuk: warm Sep 16 18:59:38 * lcuk slides an english ale over to achipa Sep 16 19:00:09 made in a micro brewery and cared for by several buxom wenches Sep 16 19:00:14 ali1234: you're missing the point - epic cidatel is based on the unreal enginge that DOES include skeletal animation Sep 16 19:00:28 lcuk: thanks (burp) Sep 16 19:00:29 achipa: that doesn't mean they got it working on iphone Sep 16 19:00:57 iphone isnt exactly made for sharing and building though Sep 16 19:01:21 but the thing is *you* are missing the point: how many unreal games are shipped without unreal engine, and require you to install it as a separate package? Sep 16 19:01:22 oh what a cool app, those walking monkeys are wicked Sep 16 19:01:32 can i use that to make some walking meegons? Sep 16 19:01:58 what answeer would you generally get in iphone land? Sep 16 19:02:24 and then ask what answer you would generally get in an open source environment Sep 16 19:03:01 in a closed source environment you get "sure, you can licence our engine for $xxxx" Sep 16 19:03:11 in a open source environment you get "sure, here is the code" Sep 16 19:03:18 ali1234: so, if they suck and can't do it properly, then we should suck, too ? :S Sep 16 19:03:21 this is completely irrelevant to the question of packaging Sep 16 19:03:33 ali1234, not really Sep 16 19:03:54 because I probably wouldnt get to see the walking monkeys if all the devices are locked down Sep 16 19:04:07 if they were made using OSS principles and sat on a community repo Sep 16 19:04:34 by the way, this totally fails all the tests Sep 16 19:05:00 (because I wouldnt be allowed to make an app including real meegons without it being officially endorsed etc) Sep 16 19:05:05 ali1234: so you're saying gnu/linux isn't an optimal environmnet in which to release proprietary games? Sep 16 19:05:18 pupnik: um... yes? Sep 16 19:05:31 pupnik: optimal environment would be a games console, obviously Sep 16 19:05:40 hmm you can have prorietary programs everywhere Sep 16 19:05:40 really? Sep 16 19:05:44 trying to guess what led to this discussion thread Sep 16 19:05:54 theres a great mix of open and source stuff at the moment in maemo Sep 16 19:06:01 did you already discuss loki games ali1234 ? Sep 16 19:06:06 we know it can and does work Sep 16 19:06:08 GNU/Linux sucks!!! Sep 16 19:06:12 * RST38h ducks, quickly Sep 16 19:06:21 FLAMEWAR HAS STARTED^^ Sep 16 19:06:22 RST38h, open source your stuff :P Sep 16 19:06:34 NUKE IN 5...4...3... Sep 16 19:06:51 lcuk:open source sucks too!!! Sep 16 19:06:55 bluescreen (nuke was windows-controlled) Sep 16 19:07:10 RST38h, sure it does Sep 16 19:07:11 pupnik: tl;dr "meego should allow dependencies outside the core packages" -> "but Qt has everything you need" -> "no it doesn't, it doesn't have unreal built in" -> "how many games ship without their own copy of unreal" -> "but that's not the open source way" Sep 16 19:07:14 btw, ali1234, have you programmed for game consoles? Sep 16 19:07:24 * achipa unpacks his ale from the nuclear proof shelter Sep 16 19:07:29 RST38h: not since they started filling them up with DRM Sep 16 19:07:43 achipa, that ale is so thick even a nuke would stand up in it! Sep 16 19:07:47 ali1234: which happened shortly after atari2600, I reckon? Sep 16 19:08:11 RST38h: well, ok, let me rephrase: not since they started filling them up with DRM that requires you to be online all the time Sep 16 19:08:14 ali1234: okay, then... social networks ? How cool is including facebook libs over and over ? Sep 16 19:08:33 ali1234: and when did that happen? Sep 16 19:11:29 RST38h: pretty much when they figured out they can force you to upgrade firmware by making all the games require it Sep 16 19:11:56 ali1234: so the disagreement only affects commercial software written for meego? should those apps be able to specify non-core open-source dependencies? Sep 16 19:12:12 pupnik: i think it really only affects open source apps Sep 16 19:12:25 commercial developers don't mind bundling everything together into one package Sep 16 19:12:26 think again ali1234 Sep 16 19:12:39 as demonstrated by the huge amount of commercial games that do exactly that Sep 16 19:13:00 ali1234: so, no morepirated games on your PSP? Sep 16 19:13:00 if someone wants to port a FOSS package, it frequently is essential to get shared libraries up into a repo first Sep 16 19:13:13 and them bundling everything together is good for a constrained disk space and wireless download system how? Sep 16 19:13:46 * RST38h sighs: what are these people arguing about? Unreal? What Unreal? Your whole Meego Handset is as unreal as it gets. Sep 16 19:13:51 thinking about this problem in desktop terms Sep 16 19:14:26 heh RST38h Sep 16 19:14:27 It is not even a problem. Once you get a Meego handset in your hands and there will be an Unreal engin based game, THEN it MAY become a problem Sep 16 19:14:29 RST38h: Unreal ? Or Mythic ? Sep 16 19:14:35 Whatever! Sep 16 19:14:45 ooh. metrics are out Sep 16 19:14:47 RST38h: yes, i agree Sep 16 19:15:03 Stskeeps: no, imperal units are out, metric ones are IN :P Sep 16 19:15:17 (yes, lame joke) Sep 16 19:15:21 You need 1) hardware 2) firmware that is usable day to day 3) someone willing AND able to develop serious games for this device of yours Sep 16 19:15:49 And only then, MAYBE there is a problem with packages not being shared between other packages Sep 16 19:15:53 guys. the game engine thing was an example. Take Python. Take SDL. Take espeak. Take whatever. Sep 16 19:16:19 * RST38h takes Python. All Python apps on Maemo share the same Python (ugly thing too) Sep 16 19:16:39 why don't use C Sep 16 19:16:42 python is in meego too of course Sep 16 19:16:42 RST38h: well too bad, all that stuff ain't compliant ! Sep 16 19:16:46 * RST38h takes SDL. Aside from that unfortunate ttf problem,SDL is not causing ANY problems whatsoever Sep 16 19:17:02 ali1234: but the bindings aren't. Oops. Sep 16 19:17:11 achipa: Compliant with what? It is certainly "compliant" as far as I am concerned Sep 16 19:17:12 achipa: bindings to what? Qt? Sep 16 19:17:26 Installs. Get shared. Runs. Sep 16 19:17:26 RST38h, you missed the whole point of the conversation Sep 16 19:17:47 lcuk: My point is that there has not been a point to the conversation :) Sep 16 19:18:21 RST38h: You won't get shared. If it's not in the firmware, you have to bundle it in your app Sep 16 19:18:24 RST38h: no really, you missed it Sep 16 19:18:42 RST38h: that shared thing was #maemo Sep 16 19:18:45 DawnFoster: odd phrasing, 'public versions of metrics reports'? i guess you mean released or something? Sep 16 19:19:21 Stskeeps, nahh there will be private ones too :P Sep 16 19:19:24 lbt: do you still have that link to the maemo request queue you showed me? Sep 16 19:19:24 ali1234: bindings to anything, Qt, mobility, GTK, wx, whatever Sep 16 19:19:28 where are they by the way? Sep 16 19:20:02 metrics? wiki/Metrics Sep 16 19:20:39 you know this whole discussion highlights why apple lays down the law for app development in the way they do Sep 16 19:21:12 they're tired of listening to those smelly gnu hippies? ;) Sep 16 19:21:13 Stskeeps: Just reminding people that the metrics are public and can be shared with people Sep 16 19:21:25 as opposed to private and secret :) Sep 16 19:21:29 which they aren't Sep 16 19:21:30 ah :) Sep 16 19:21:38 DawnFoster: yeah, didn't accuse you of holding something secret :) just noticed it Sep 16 19:21:42 no gnu hippies are on the IPhone^^ Sep 16 19:21:52 achipa: this sounds stupid. who came up with this wonderful idea? Sep 16 19:22:09 hey tobib, how do you know someone has an iPhone? Sep 16 19:22:11 Stskeeps: basically they dont want people to all use a different gui toolkit so that all apps are inconsistent etc Sep 16 19:22:14 ali1234: they don't lay down the law, they tweak, change, alter how they see fit Sep 16 19:22:24 Stskeeps: actually, it was to avoid the question I often get about sharing them Sep 16 19:22:37 ali1234: one day you can use 3rd party libs, the next you can't. Sorry. Too bad if your business model depended on it Sep 16 19:22:41 basically they don't want the flash on IPhone compiler thing Sep 16 19:22:53 I have to resist the urge to say "well, duh. it's on the wiki - it's already public" ;) Sep 16 19:23:00 tobib: but they do now (again) Sep 16 19:23:15 yes i didn't believe it Sep 16 19:23:17 DawnFoster: or the day we can all say 'did you notice the meego logo? it's all open' Sep 16 19:23:20 ;) Sep 16 19:23:27 tobib: I guess Android with Flash was getting dangerously competitive... Sep 16 19:24:45 RST38h: it's called MeeGo Compliance program. Will help vendors apparently, in some weird way. Sep 16 19:25:13 RST38h: MeeGo Application Compliance, that is... Sep 16 19:25:17 achipa: Well, this means Meego device will either have to become non-compliant or useless Sep 16 19:25:20 Flash on mobile will always be a bad idea Sep 16 19:25:22 devices Sep 16 19:25:39 ScottishDuck: flash on anything is a bad idea Sep 16 19:25:45 ScottishDuck: flash is a bad idea, but we still have to live with it, for now Sep 16 19:25:46 * achipa thinks about the state of 64bit linux flash Sep 16 19:25:52 RST38h: no, it just means your app that requires a library from somewhere else won't be meego compliant, and no app store will accept it Sep 16 19:25:57 achipa: they brought it back Sep 16 19:26:01 flash is the buggiest web standard i ever saw Sep 16 19:26:10 ali1234: And why do I care about app stores? Sep 16 19:26:11 it's a standard? Sep 16 19:26:15 oh well Sep 16 19:26:18 in fact Sep 16 19:26:25 ScottishDuck: I know. Doesn't mean they can't take it away (again). Sep 16 19:26:26 ali1234: Given how dismal chances of success are there? Sep 16 19:26:32 RST38h: if you don't care about appstores, then you won't care about meego app complaince... /discussion Sep 16 19:26:42 ali1234: Gooood =) Sep 16 19:27:15 * RST38h almost done installing 720MB of apps onto his phone, no app stores in sight Sep 16 19:28:05 Hi friends Sep 16 19:28:18 I HAVE A QUESTION! Sep 16 19:28:30 WRT Flash, I care somewhat less about the "buggy" than the "not supported everywhere" and the "flying CPU hog" :-P Sep 16 19:28:38 * GordonS covers his ears Sep 16 19:28:40 McPels: TELL US! Sep 16 19:28:42 you are loud :) Sep 16 19:29:04 hmm flash is supported on most architectures Sep 16 19:29:05 I HAVE A QUESTION!/ Sep 16 19:29:14 McPels: Once you have had that QUESTION, flush and come back Sep 16 19:29:17 whatever, GordonS. caps lock is cruise control for cool Sep 16 19:29:23 kick in 5...4...3... Sep 16 19:29:25 hmm except of 64-bit^^ Sep 16 19:29:56 and with buggy I also meant "flying CPU-hog " Sep 16 19:29:58 tobib: most ? How many is most architectures nowadays ? Sep 16 19:30:14 tobib: Debian runs on a dozen or so, how many of them have Flash ? Sep 16 19:30:27 sjokkis: I thought that was u5in6 l0tz of l3773rz and Z's... Sep 16 19:30:35 archipa : flash supports Linux Sep 16 19:30:55 thats more than most other commercial technologies Sep 16 19:30:59 tobib: Linux is not an architecture Sep 16 19:31:17 achipa : ok it's an OS Sep 16 19:31:43 achipa : but on the Desktop Computer there is only x86 and x86_64 as far as I know Sep 16 19:32:25 DawnFoster, wheres the usual irc stats ? Sep 16 19:32:29 http://wiki.meego.com/Metrics#Monthly_Metrics Sep 16 19:32:37 i see metrics and theres a pdf of overall things Sep 16 19:32:42 tobib: that would be the Adobe maths... clicking on ANY DEVICE gives a list of 6 (six) phones Sep 16 19:32:53 but I cant seem to find the amusing ones which has out of context quotes from folks :D Sep 16 19:33:01 * lcuk giggles at them usually ;) Sep 16 19:33:07 sjokkis: Can I install Meego on my laptop? Sep 16 19:33:17 yes Sep 16 19:33:21 now go forth and prosper Sep 16 19:33:26 McPels: the question !!! depends on what kind of laptop do you have Sep 16 19:33:29 achipa : I never cared about flash on phones so i don't know really what they support in mobile market Sep 16 19:33:33 tobib: the word you are looking for is "platform" Sep 16 19:34:16 tobib: the fun part is that it seems they now support Symbian, but are too ashamed of it to admit :P Sep 16 19:34:20 achipa: you mean the brand matters? Sep 16 19:34:52 McPels: I mean the CPU/video matters. No AMD, no NVidia. Sep 16 19:35:15 achipa: If you're all Intel, you're OK, otherwise... Sep 16 19:35:28 geez, talking to myself Sep 16 19:35:39 * achipa ran out of beer, goes back to coffee Sep 16 19:35:48 time to go, night! Sep 16 19:35:57 o/ Sep 16 19:36:16 Stskeeps, where do you put the irc stats nowadays? Sep 16 19:36:30 www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.html Sep 16 19:36:32 i think Sep 16 19:36:36 www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.aug.html Sep 16 19:37:01 hmm... i didn't realise i talk so much here Sep 16 19:37:14 awesome, thanks! Sep 16 19:37:38 achipa: My CPU is Intel and my grafic is Nvidia! Sep 16 19:37:38 achipa: Can I? Sep 16 19:38:05 oh lordy, i have most out of context quote this time :D Sep 16 19:38:33 You can man, by all means, you can Sep 16 19:38:57 See? That was ALL he wanted. Simple isn't it? Sep 16 19:39:20 if it was always that simle... Sep 16 19:42:27 achipa: So can I? Sep 16 19:43:04 McPels, some specially trained people have run meego on the strangest combinations of devices Sep 16 19:43:09 so, yes its possible Sep 16 19:43:36 but whether you can navigate the course to running on your hardware, i or anyone else cannot say at this time Sep 16 19:44:25 simplest, download it to your usb stick and try it Sep 16 19:44:36 if it doesnt work, get some info and ask why Sep 16 19:44:53 if it works, come and jump around like a ninja at a wedding Sep 16 19:46:46 yo, should I be able to use libmeegotouch without anything else? the docs seem to indicate it is possible, and I can successfully compile it etc, but apps crash. Is there some known stable release or ..? Sep 16 19:46:55 lcuk: My Internet is not that much OK for downloading! Sep 16 19:47:15 lcuk: f**k shool, become a ninja! :P Sep 16 19:47:22 lcuk: So firstly I ought to be aware of ots possibility! Sep 16 19:47:26 mikkoh, hmm? which platform Sep 16 19:47:52 ots? Sep 16 19:48:06 lcuk: I mean its possibility! :) Sep 16 19:48:10 Mat_Matan, i cannot become a ninja Sep 16 19:48:23 when I signed on for the pirates guild there was a clause :( Sep 16 19:48:31 lcuk: platform? ubuntu 10.04, following installation instructions in http://apidocs.meego.com/mtf/ Sep 16 19:48:40 lcuk: you fail at reading :P Sep 16 19:48:53 mikkoh, do you have meegotouch-theme? Sep 16 19:48:58 ColKilkenny: yes Sep 16 19:49:16 lcuk: so, ARGH! :) Sep 16 19:49:20 hmm.. i have 10.10 and everything works okayish Sep 16 19:49:23 "arrrr" Sep 16 19:49:25 also, anyone in authority that can say how ready meego is for primetime on a handheld? Sep 16 19:49:35 lots of warnigns but i can compile apps etc. Sep 16 19:49:38 ARGH is the sound you make when my cutlas slices your midrif Sep 16 19:49:44 hmm looking at the dump, it seems I might be missing an X extension.. Sep 16 19:50:09 ColKilkenny, cool Sep 16 19:50:11 lcuk: I mean itsnot ots! Sep 16 19:50:11 lcuk: SPILT OF TYPING! Sep 16 19:50:11 lcuk: in polish language argh sounds better :P Sep 16 19:50:16 can you give some screenies from within ubuntu? Sep 16 19:50:34 Mat_Matan, and that explains why there are no famous polish pirates Sep 16 19:50:55 slavik: sure, lots of people in authority who can speak to that, but they're not talking Sep 16 19:51:02 lcuk, nothing really to see Sep 16 19:51:11 ColKilkenny, :) more than you think Sep 16 19:51:14 berndhs: I see, thank you. :( Sep 16 19:51:30 does Intel have offices in NYC? Sep 16 19:51:37 pretty sure Nokia doesn't Sep 16 19:51:41 ColKilkenny, are you also running it on ubuntu? Sep 16 19:51:45 lcuk: I am that McPels! Sep 16 19:51:46 lcuk: I wanna install Meego On my laptop! Can I? Sep 16 19:51:54 lcuk, yes Sep 16 19:52:02 lcuk: but we have more and better confessors of pasta god, FSM :P Sep 16 19:52:03 McPels, i already answered you Sep 16 19:52:45 ColKilkenny, then post a screenie :p Sep 16 19:52:47 lcuk: Sorry, I coulden't get u! Sep 16 19:53:12 I think I will just mail hr@nokia.com and hr@intel.com and just say I want to work on meego. :D Sep 16 19:53:29 lcuk, sorry I can't atm. as the libmeegotouch trunk won't compile atm :D Sep 16 19:53:32 McPels, by default you need intel everything and ssse3 compatable cpu - running it on non standard hardware usually involves recompiling and faffing Sep 16 19:53:36 but people can do it Sep 16 19:53:43 ColKilkenny, you juse said it was Sep 16 19:53:59 "everything works okayish" Sep 16 19:54:04 were your words Sep 16 19:54:12 i meant generally. it'll probably compile tomorrow again Sep 16 19:54:27 then come back tomorrow and share a screenie :P Sep 16 19:54:31 ColKilkenny: compiling is successful based on a clock? Sep 16 19:54:57 ColKilkenny, ps Sep 16 19:55:01 slavik, yes :) they committed something today which made it go BOOM Sep 16 19:55:04 keep whatever patches and tweaks you need Sep 16 19:55:06 to get it running Sep 16 19:55:20 and offer them as a patch in a bug against building it for ubuntu Sep 16 19:55:36 lcuk: tnx so much! Sep 16 19:55:38 if that was my problem ... my problem is not having a file in a working directory which svn claims exists, so I cannot add it Sep 16 19:57:21 slavik, omg Sep 16 19:57:27 you are using svn? :P Sep 16 19:57:32 yes Sep 16 19:57:39 it was the first thing someone set up Sep 16 19:57:55 which project? Sep 16 19:57:58 lcuk: I am like the only person using this repo anyway, so :P Sep 16 19:58:12 i thought you were talking about libmeegotouch from gitorious Sep 16 19:58:12 lcuk: internal hacks because people are lazy Sep 16 19:58:17 oh, no Sep 16 19:58:26 wrong company, wrong project :( Sep 16 19:58:29 I wish I did though Sep 16 19:58:31 no prob Sep 16 19:58:51 * lcuk understands all sorts of differences Sep 16 19:59:13 but I would prolly suck as an embedded dev ... I like Perl :) Sep 16 19:59:31 I'm only so-so as an embedded dev... I hate assembler :) Sep 16 19:59:40 that, too Sep 16 19:59:48 although I hear ARM is not as bad as x86 Sep 16 20:00:00 no question whatsoever Sep 16 20:00:10 x86 assembler is eeeevil Sep 16 20:00:20 was * it got better i believe Sep 16 20:00:23 GordonS: there is something more eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebil than that Sep 16 20:00:36 there is pretty much always something worse :) Sep 16 20:00:37 MIPS assembly Sep 16 20:00:47 I have never had any reason to look Sep 16 20:00:54 neither have I Sep 16 20:07:46 Another question friends! Sep 16 20:08:25 Can I install MeeGo on my Nokia 5530 xpressmusic? Sep 16 20:08:41 Yes, after some work. Sep 16 20:08:46 Well, a lot of work. Sep 16 20:09:01 ;) Sep 16 20:09:35 and breaking in to get a signed bootloader Sep 16 20:09:36 :P Sep 16 20:10:34 RST38h: And how? Sep 16 20:10:36 :P Sep 16 20:11:27 McPels: Lots of work, man Sep 16 20:11:38 McPels: Like...you know...HACKING work Sep 16 20:12:36 imho... nokia should give us at least some signed bootloaders for meego for older phones :) Sep 16 20:13:13 3260 Sep 16 20:18:44 th0br0: which ones are you thinking of? Sep 16 20:19:02 no idea, frankly speaking. it is just some thought that popped up. Sep 16 20:19:15 i mean, those running sym^2/3? Sep 16 20:19:36 depends on hardware in the end i guess Sep 16 20:19:41 symbian ^3 isn't exactly old Sep 16 20:19:46 i know :) Sep 16 20:19:51 nor is symbian ^ 2 more or less Sep 16 20:19:54 but yeah i'd like that too Sep 16 20:20:04 but you are going to need hw3d drivers too Sep 16 20:20:36 yeah :( but it would significantly boost meego use... especially as many more developers would be able to develop for meego on their phones Sep 16 20:21:11 it's only a matter of time before someone makes a phone that can run android/symbian/meego at will Sep 16 20:22:20 it will either be extremely expensive or dirt cheap rubbish though Sep 16 20:27:26 weird, just got some timeout Sep 16 20:32:19 ali1234: well, the iphone gen 2 already runs android :) Sep 16 20:37:33 besides i don't think that we'll see such due to licensing stuff Sep 16 20:44:34 i'm out, bye Sep 16 20:46:17 hi, this guide http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC works with proprietary meego ?? Sep 16 20:51:29 is Meego handset based on Fedora ??? Sep 16 20:52:12 nuovodna: Define "properietary MeeGo"? Sep 16 20:52:43 a file like this : meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary Sep 16 20:52:52 i suppose there are some propr drivers Sep 16 20:54:21 You ignore the spec thread for a few hours and it doubles in size. Sep 16 20:54:25 nuovodna: it should work when loaded on the SD card, yes Sep 16 20:54:46 GAN900: You won't enjoy reading it. Sep 16 20:54:55 Apart from lbt being generally excellent ;-) Sep 16 20:55:19 Jaffa: good fight and it's not even friday Sep 16 20:56:23 thanks wmarone Sep 16 20:57:57 and sometimes a tad harsh : Sep 16 20:59:00 I'm just hoping we get them before they leave work.... have you noticed how dead weekends usually are? Sep 16 20:59:53 oh wait... it's thursday... who said friday? Sep 16 21:00:14 lbt: Feels like Friday. Sep 16 21:00:25 can't think why... :D Sep 16 21:02:26 Jaffa, I did a round of English ales earlier, but theres still some in the barrel, I guess you need one? Sep 16 21:02:30 lbt, for you too? Sep 16 21:02:48 yellow booze for me Sep 16 21:04:02 lbt hmm, the only yellow fluids I know isn't booze Sep 16 21:04:11 you can get your own Sep 16 21:04:16 think christmas... Sep 16 21:04:52 thats worse Sep 16 21:04:59 "don't eat the yellow snow" Sep 16 21:05:06 if it doesn't have an umbrella or cherries ... it's not proper booze :) Sep 16 21:05:36 *poker face* Sep 16 21:06:40 lcuk: Please. Though I've just had a glass of milk and a Time Out, so'd probably curdle. Sep 16 21:07:02 lcuk: Some Lady Gaga to go with the dodgy drink? ;-) Sep 16 21:07:57 egg nog! Sep 16 21:08:06 \o/ Sep 16 21:08:09 it took a damned google search :| Sep 16 21:08:18 "christmas yellow drink" Sep 16 21:08:21 you need more cocktails in your life Sep 16 21:08:22 really dam ned obvious Sep 16 21:08:34 at least I know what not to be when I grow up Sep 16 21:08:47 * lcuk strikes barkeeper off list Sep 16 21:08:48 you'd drop the bottles Sep 16 21:09:11 yeah Sep 16 21:09:23 getting better tho, havent dorpped the sugar in a while Sep 16 21:09:26 dropped Sep 16 21:09:37 Sounds like a prison euphemism. Sep 16 21:11:05 Jaffa, the sugar jar is the one noticable time my finger still cannot grip properly Sep 16 21:11:23 and I have dropped it quite often Sep 16 21:14:48 * GAN900 is still at work. :( Sep 16 21:15:00 Damn timezones Sep 16 21:18:51 Good night Sep 16 21:22:10 is it easy to install meego on Nokia N900? Sep 16 21:22:31 CHTboy: do you like making phone calls? Sep 16 21:22:42 yes, Sep 16 21:22:50 then steer clear for now Sep 16 21:25:40 s/making phone calls/doing almost anything/ ;-) Sep 16 21:25:51 heh Sep 16 21:27:42 Jaffa: using my n900 is overrated anyways Sep 16 21:28:25 CHTboy, yes it's easy, but as rtyler illustrates, it's not even vaguely close to usable. Sep 16 21:42:50 Mark's quoting is the worst. Sep 16 21:45:43 "what do you mean?" Sep 16 21:46:37 so I have built an xorg server package with the support necessary for nVidia: https://build.meego.com/package/show?package=xorg-x11-server&project=home%3Agordons Sep 16 21:46:59 so now what is the URL to add to my zypper repo list?? Sep 16 21:47:00 GAN900 whatImeanisthatwhen rtyler saidthataboutMarkhewasright Sep 16 21:47:08 so that I can actually *download* what it built? Sep 16 21:59:21 lbt, clap clap clap. Sep 16 21:59:51 lbt, again, thank you for being awesome. Sep 16 22:00:43 GAN900: thankyou for the support :) .... I've written so many mails tonight... which one? Sep 16 22:07:53 lbt, the one with the spec citations in response to Mark's email, in particular. Sep 16 22:09:20 lbt: Isn't that the one you pull back from later? ;-) Sep 16 22:09:28 no Sep 16 22:09:34 Ah, cool. Sep 16 22:09:35 GordonS: I can't see that machine to point you to it, but if you click on the repository name of your package (i.e. the clickable blue string to the left of the green succeeded msg) that should take you to a download page Sep 16 22:09:36 that was to arjan Sep 16 22:09:36 Too many emails ;-) Sep 16 22:09:43 Good lord Sep 16 22:09:44 When is a meego tablet supposed to come out Sep 16 22:09:53 Quim's email killed Modest. Sep 16 22:09:55 when it's done Sep 16 22:09:55 I rebutted his arguments but it didn't add anything Sep 16 22:10:01 b0tz: if you're in Germany, you can order the WeTab now :) Sep 16 22:10:08 Im not sadly. Im in USA. Sep 16 22:10:09 GordonS: from there you should see a "go to download repository" link. That's the link that you need to add Sep 16 22:10:14 b0tz: WeTab, apparently. But who knows if it'll be MeeGo Compliant or not ;-) Sep 16 22:10:18 ah. Sep 16 22:10:35 Jaffa: which is a good question :) Sep 16 22:10:51 wmarone: the wetab company has had a few bad starts, let's hope they pull this off Sep 16 22:10:54 Ah, so the spec draft doesn't actually have anything to do with the current reasoning? Sep 16 22:11:02 GAN900: Correct. Sep 16 22:11:06 GAN900: who'da thunk it Sep 16 22:11:08 so, any insider info anyone is willing to realease about the next awesome meego phone? Sep 16 22:11:13 though according to the Nokia guy demoing the thing on Tuesday, their changes to the tablet UI are going to be rolled into the reference UI Sep 16 22:11:17 e90 is driving nuts and I don't want android Sep 16 22:11:19 GAN900: Emails you've probably not got to yet say thinks like "this will definitely be removed in the next draft" Sep 16 22:11:23 so I'm waiting to see that happen Sep 16 22:11:27 slavik: yes... it'll be compliant!! Sep 16 22:11:38 lbt: huh? Sep 16 22:11:41 Stuff like this makes people burn out on your project. Sep 16 22:12:13 GAN900: Indeed. I might have already done so, but I suspect people wouldn't have cared. So I need to put more effort in so that it's noticed when I do ;-) Sep 16 22:12:30 Jaffa, ehehe Sep 16 22:12:49 slavik, e90 isnt any good? Sep 16 22:12:55 Burnouts should be useful Sep 16 22:12:59 b0tz: it's old at this point Sep 16 22:13:07 ah, i thought this was the newer one coming out Sep 16 22:13:09 replacement to the n900 Sep 16 22:13:10 b0tz: if you want a nice phone now, I think n900 is nice Sep 16 22:13:20 b0tz: e90 is last of the communicators. :) Sep 16 22:13:30 last most advanced, e71 is a refresh imo Sep 16 22:13:30 The fact that the majority of unpaid Maemo contributors actively want nothing to do with MeeGo should be sending up flags for somebody. Sep 16 22:13:37 ahh, I dont want to spend 400-500$ on n900 and then have a better\thinner\cooler looking meego phone come out Sep 16 22:13:47 and e90 was released in like 2006 Sep 16 22:14:31 GAN900: you read what an ex Nokia dev said? it was on engadget I think. Sep 16 22:14:44 slavik, about hardware ruling? Sep 16 22:14:48 yes Sep 16 22:15:13 Yeah Sep 16 22:15:34 N900 does look awesome, i mean it can crack wifi, has android ports, it seems almost OVERLY customizable Sep 16 22:15:40 things like that an Nokia not really talking about MeeGo phones is kind of "scary" Sep 16 22:15:40 What compounds the damage of that mentality is that I don't think the hardware people have any connection to reality. Sep 16 22:15:48 but i dont want to be left behind when a better one comes out in next 6 months Sep 16 22:15:55 I mean, has anybody here ever seen a Nokia hardware person? Sep 16 22:16:23 b0tz: and n900 can run full version of firefox inside of a chrooted debian install inside maemo5 Sep 16 22:16:34 GAN900: they exists? Sep 16 22:16:36 I met a Nokia software person! Sep 16 22:16:37 yeah, thats awesome Sep 16 22:16:55 slavik, well, phones keep coming out, so I'm forced to assume so. Sep 16 22:16:55 ah slavik i was thhinking abou the n9 Sep 16 22:16:58 not the e90 Sep 16 22:17:02 wmarone, I've met several. Sep 16 22:17:09 GAN900: I met a leprechaun, but not a Nokia hardware person. Sep 16 22:17:11 :P Sep 16 22:17:24 The n9 looks awesome Sep 16 22:17:31 b0tz: ahh, I decided not to waste my time with due to the reported 800px width screen and lack of OMAP4 Sep 16 22:17:37 ah i see.. Sep 16 22:17:49 although the keyboard is almost as good as the e90 Sep 16 22:17:55 one thing i always look for in my phone is a physical qwerty keyuboard Sep 16 22:18:04 GAN900: what happened to the hardware people that designed the e90? Sep 16 22:18:32 slavik, probably in the gulag. Sep 16 22:18:43 I actually like the physical design/layout of sidekick ... Sep 16 22:19:05 GAN900: really? :( IMO, that is the best phone with keyboard design after sidekick. Sep 16 22:20:14 Wow! Sep 16 22:20:19 i just ofund the tablet i want. :D http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/01/meego-moorestown-powered-tablet-hands-on/ Sep 16 22:20:40 is it atom? then do not want Sep 16 22:21:01 n the hardware front, the 1.5GHz Moorestown chip seemed to be super snappy and we witnessed it play a 720p clip smoothly. The actual 10-inch Quanta Redvale tablet was incredibly thin and light, but the viewing angles of the reference design's screen were poor to say the least. Sep 16 22:21:07 Entering into a discussion pre-entrenched was a big problem in Maemo. Sep 16 22:21:23 Clearly things have not (and likely will not) improve in MeeGo. Sep 16 22:21:43 I, for one, wish you the best of luck with your "open" project. Sep 16 22:21:57 GAN900, I don't get it Sep 16 22:22:51 I thought you and Stskeeps were basically trying to push maemo folks to meego, but now that I started idling here.... wth? What are you trying to achieve exactly? Sep 16 22:24:08 MNZ, I'm trying to burn myself out here, apparently. Sep 16 22:24:30 MNZ, depends on why you're here. Sep 16 22:24:40 Consumers will probably have a ball. Sep 16 22:25:25 I have had the N900 for about a month, and I believe I have been an active contributor Sep 16 22:25:30 b0tz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sidekick_LX.png I dare you tell me that is bad layout :P Sep 16 22:25:44 wow lol Sep 16 22:25:46 And I don't really know why I don't want to de Meego, but I guess it's just rpm-hate :P Sep 16 22:25:50 do people still use sidekicks? Sep 16 22:25:52 MNZ: you have meego running on the n900? Sep 16 22:26:03 slavik, #maemo ftw Sep 16 22:26:11 now now, why all the depressed talk? lol Sep 16 22:26:31 b0tz: no idea, but I think that it has the best idea for screen design (the way it swivels to reveal the keyboard) Sep 16 22:26:36 MNZ: I see ... Sep 16 22:26:50 yeah, ever since i saw those sidekick commericals i thought wow that is awesome, wish i could try it Sep 16 22:26:54 never had t-mobile though. Sep 16 22:27:00 tmobile is teh suck Sep 16 22:27:05 trust me on that Sep 16 22:27:15 but the question still stands GAN900, what, if anything are you trying to achieve? Besides trying to burn yourself, that is. Sep 16 22:27:44 MNZ, avoiding the mistakes Nokia made and maemo.org made. Sep 16 22:27:57 Trying to use the things we learned there in MeeGo. Sep 16 22:28:10 sidekick with omap4, keyboard layout of e90, iphone4 screen, meego on top ... done! Sep 16 22:28:13 But the whole organization seems to be resistant to that input. Sep 16 22:28:32 also, question on meego, what language is the primary language for applications? Sep 16 22:28:44 primary? Sep 16 22:29:00 sofar: maybe not primary, but mostly used is a better term Sep 16 22:29:06 there's a list of "supported" languages, there's about 16-18 of them Sep 16 22:29:18 most people code in english Sep 16 22:29:24 that way, review is easy :) Sep 16 22:29:25 for /official/ support it's Qt (C++) but others can work Sep 16 22:29:25 like android is mainly java, although possible to use perl and python and others Sep 16 22:29:44 oh programming languages, lol Sep 16 22:29:44 sofar: :(, I meant programming languages. Sep 16 22:29:48 gah! Sep 16 22:30:03 and unlike Android you aren't required to use Java to access the GUI Sep 16 22:30:06 MTF is the preferred language, it's the Qt variant for MeeGo Sep 16 22:30:19 MTF is a library built upon Qt Sep 16 22:30:22 MTF is used for handsets Sep 16 22:30:36 MTF is used in IVI, I think as well Sep 16 22:30:40 wmarone: aparently on Android, ASE allows you to use any language with full API access. Sep 16 22:30:47 GAN900, I really don't have a clear view of who/what/where the 'organisation' is, so I guess I'll quite down for now. But 'I, for one, wish you the best of luck with your "open" project'? Sep 16 22:33:22 mtf = meego touch framework? Sep 16 22:33:26 yes Sep 16 22:34:19 also, qemu image of meego, can a realworld performance factor be calculated? (like % of real CPU/GPU speed, etc, or something). Sep 16 22:34:29 doubtful Sep 16 22:34:58 it can, but would be extremely complex Sep 16 22:35:14 can you account for activity on the host system? Sep 16 22:37:54 slavik: if you want real-world data, use real-world devices Sep 16 22:41:00 can't really do power consumption numbers in qemu either Sep 16 22:41:05 yet, that's vital Sep 16 22:41:18 you can get proxies for the data Sep 16 22:41:30 the number of wakeups for power consumptiop Sep 16 22:41:37 instructions for execution speed Sep 16 22:41:52 sure, but, they don't tell you if the audio chipset is left on 100% all the time for instance Sep 16 22:42:08 the interplay between CPU and GPU is something that is going to be near impossible to get right without real hardware Sep 16 22:42:11 maybe not as important from an app writer perspective :) Sep 16 22:42:30 only if you had a full-device emulator Sep 16 22:42:38 emulate the instructions as well as the entire hardware Sep 16 22:42:39 what is fast on one GPU may be slow on another. There may be software paths or memory bandwidth problems that make comparisons difficult Sep 16 22:42:44 qemu is a processor emulator Sep 16 22:43:00 mikeleib: oh how you're right... Sep 16 22:43:16 * mikeleib is flattered to hear thiago_home say so Sep 16 22:43:39 and... while thiago_home is 'ere Sep 16 22:43:58 uh oh Sep 16 22:44:11 is it proper to use qtn_ prefix in qtTrId id's? as in MLabel(qtTrId("qtn_label_id")) Sep 16 22:44:22 not power consumption, I am looking mostly for things like if an opengl program runs at X frames per second, what I could expect on some reference hardware that I know specs of. Sep 16 22:44:23 or is that a nokiaism? Sep 16 22:44:26 we don't use that anywhere in Qt code Sep 16 22:44:30 and I can account for activity on host system Sep 16 22:44:37 the Nokia people asked for it because of old translation practices Sep 16 22:44:42 we fought them hard Sep 16 22:44:49 we told them it was obsolete technology Sep 16 22:44:50 we lost Sep 16 22:45:01 * mikeleib is marking his MTF apps just as such Sep 16 22:45:03 in the end we gave in and let them use IDs Sep 16 22:45:20 there's no namespace management. We in Qt really don't care about those IDs. Sep 16 22:45:28 in our opinion, you shouldn't use them. Sep 16 22:45:30 Is there any rough idea of when the first MeeGo phone (even the intel dev phone) will be available to the public (me) ? Sep 16 22:45:38 MNZ, wish MeeGo the best of luck with their open project that's turning out to be much less of one than we might've hoped. Sep 16 22:45:52 trevorj: can't say, no Sep 16 22:46:01 GAN900: patches accepted Sep 16 22:46:01 MNZ, notably the preordained decisions that seems to be involved with the specs. Sep 16 22:46:13 in general, nobody in here will not be able to give any deadlines, release dates whatsoever Sep 16 22:46:15 what about the blaze platform from TI? anyone run MeeGo on that? Sep 16 22:46:18 sofar: I really, really want a moorestown phone, even if I have to dial via AT commands Sep 16 22:46:21 sofar: ;) Sep 16 22:46:21 mikeleib, I deal with community and organizational issues, not code. :) Sep 16 22:46:30 you're making it hard for us by asking :) Sep 16 22:46:31 * mikeleib deals in code.. sorry Sep 16 22:46:37 trevorj: I am with you. Sep 16 22:46:45 well, not an intel phone though Sep 16 22:46:59 GAN900: has anyone called them on that? Sep 16 22:47:01 trevorj: you can buy from Aava Sep 16 22:47:03 thiago_home: do the id's passed into qtTrId need to be globally unique to an app? Sep 16 22:47:04 * wmarone hasn't had time to follow the thread Sep 16 22:47:05 slavik: why not if I may ask? Sep 16 22:47:06 they're not cheap, but you can buy them Sep 16 22:47:12 thiago_home: oh? what's not cheap? Sep 16 22:47:18 trevorj: arm > intel on mobile/embed IMO Sep 16 22:47:18 I have seen another dev phone from another company too Sep 16 22:47:20 also not cheap Sep 16 22:47:22 mikeleib: I deal in all three, but as a coder I don't want to bundle libxyz inside my package when J Smith has already done the same :-/ Sep 16 22:47:23 trevorj: the aava Sep 16 22:47:31 slavik: I'm a big fan of omap4, I feel you Sep 16 22:47:39 wmarone, lbt is fighting the good fight. Sep 16 22:47:43 wmarone, among others. Sep 16 22:47:49 what's lbt's name? Sep 16 22:47:49 Jaffa: lsb wars all over again Sep 16 22:47:59 it's the same principle Sep 16 22:48:08 thiago_home: no, I meant, what cost is considered not cheap Sep 16 22:48:10 thiago_home: =) Sep 16 22:48:16 wmarone, David Greaves. Sep 16 22:48:19 trevorj: $2k + per unit, iirc Sep 16 22:48:25 GAN900: oh ok Sep 16 22:48:30 wmarone: wow, that's not cheap Sep 16 22:48:39 considering what you get, I'd say not Sep 16 22:48:43 trevorj: no, but that's a devkit for you :) Sep 16 22:48:47 wmarone, mostly the only emails in that thread really worth listening to. ;) Sep 16 22:48:52 Right, bed time. Sep 16 22:48:54 trevorj: $2k Sep 16 22:48:56 * wmarone notes that the Zoom II platforms are easily $1200+ Sep 16 22:48:57 can you make phone calls with the aava ? Sep 16 22:49:02 Jaffa, later. Sep 16 22:49:08 Are they so much because of the limited build quantity? Sep 16 22:49:10 GAN900: Aww, meany. Anyway; you need to read the other to appreciate lbt ;-) Sep 16 22:49:13 berndhs: yes, if you code the app to make calls Sep 16 22:49:16 berndhs: the HW is there Sep 16 22:49:24 Jaffa, of course. Sep 16 22:49:31 g'night Sep 16 22:49:33 Jaffa, and your emails too. :P Sep 16 22:49:35 thiago_home: I thought the modem driver was not finished Sep 16 22:49:41 GAN900: Meeting minutes from earlier over in #maemo BTW Sep 16 22:49:50 Jaffa, saw it, thanks. Sep 16 22:50:00 Right. Gone. Properly. Sep 16 22:50:02 the app to make calls is there.. the plumbing below isn't Sep 16 22:50:13 ljp: I heard it can make calls. Sep 16 22:50:24 second-hand information Sep 16 22:50:38 oh ok. maybe I will try a new image Sep 16 22:50:46 honestly, I just want a phone with a terminal that has the needed drivers. that would be hardcore Sep 16 22:50:49 making calls is not the problem Sep 16 22:50:54 hanging up is Sep 16 22:51:05 if you can't hang up, your phone bill will explode... Sep 16 22:51:16 faraday cage ? Sep 16 22:51:18 not my bill :) Sep 16 22:51:42 you can pull the battery out, but only if it's not screwed in Sep 16 22:52:06 minicom on the phone with a terminal, done! Sep 16 22:52:10 true geek phone Sep 16 22:52:10 ya, not screwed in. just like my desktop machines Sep 16 22:52:27 BYODGUI, Bring Your Own Damn GUI Sep 16 22:53:03 don't need gui for phone calls, just audio Sep 16 22:53:07 yes Sep 16 22:53:26 berndhs: hence: minicom and terminal Sep 16 22:53:28 * thiago_home also thinks that all laptops should have a handle Sep 16 22:53:47 the first hack for an all audio phone would be someone setting the ringtone to say "cancel call" Sep 16 22:53:53 thiago_home: and a hand crank when you need a quick charge and not near outlet Sep 16 22:53:57 thiago_home: for better throwing Sep 16 22:54:37 my laptop has a lot of grease from my palms today, after two days carrying it around in Nokia World Sep 16 22:54:51 :/ Sep 16 22:54:53 I'll blog tomorrow about it (impressions from a developer's point of view) Sep 16 22:55:36 seriously though, a phone can fit a 512MB DRAM chip on the PCB, hardware people can put that in and just let the software people do software Sep 16 22:56:31 thiago_home, shame I missed you, hope you enjoyed London Sep 16 22:56:39 lcuk: it was good Sep 16 22:56:45 nice weather, for a change Sep 16 22:56:59 fog wasn't black this time? Sep 16 22:57:15 cool stuff, i've seen and heard some good stuff come out of NW so far Sep 16 22:57:15 yeah, no smog Sep 16 22:57:28 I am pissed off about one thing though Sep 16 22:57:31 lcuk: any meego stuff comming? Sep 16 22:57:35 coming* Sep 16 22:57:46 people who attended my presentation got N8s Sep 16 22:57:49 but not me! Sep 16 22:57:56 haha th Sep 16 22:57:56 heh Sep 16 22:58:00 thiago_home, Sep 16 22:58:06 slavik: no, nothing about meego during the conf, except to say that there would be no meego announcements Sep 16 22:58:07 thiago_home: I'll listen for you drone on for hours, can I get an N8, too? Sep 16 22:58:08 * mikeleib doesn't want an N8 Sep 16 22:58:11 * mikeleib wants an N9 Sep 16 22:58:12 slavik, you have meego now Sep 16 22:58:17 go install it hack on it Sep 16 22:58:18 etc Sep 16 22:58:26 lcuk: on what phone though? Sep 16 22:58:30 mikeleib: that's my rationalisation :-) Sep 16 22:58:34 * ljp has an n8 Sep 16 22:58:38 who is gonna make the first cross meego/maemo app? Sep 16 22:58:43 even though there's no such thing as an N9, yadda yadda yadda Sep 16 22:58:43 ljp: impressions? Sep 16 22:58:50 something that will run on both happily Sep 16 22:58:52 lcuk: emacs.. already been done Sep 16 22:58:58 mikeleib, sure Sep 16 22:58:58 slavik: i like it Sep 16 22:59:02 * thiago_home looks at the prototype that he's been allowed to carry home Sep 16 22:59:21 thiago_home, thats why you didn't get an n8 :P Sep 16 22:59:30 thiago_home: remember the gizmodo iPhone4 prototype thing? Sep 16 22:59:37 slavik: yeah Sep 16 22:59:45 thiago_home: maybe you need to be an engineer :) Sep 16 22:59:46 slavik: wtf was the dude doing with it in a bar? Sep 16 22:59:54 about to be N9 ;) just tell me what bars you frequent :) Sep 16 22:59:59 slavik: and more importantly, why did he take it out of the bag in a bar? Sep 16 23:00:23 thiago_home confirmed for having n9 Sep 16 23:00:37 ScottishDuck: there is no such thing as N9 Sep 16 23:00:43 Nokia has not announced such a device Sep 16 23:00:43 :) Sep 16 23:00:44 :-) Sep 16 23:00:59 ljp: did you know that Nokia prototypes don't have just one codename? They have two? Sep 16 23:01:00 seriously though, is the marketing department at Nokia dead? Sep 16 23:01:06 no hype, no sales Sep 16 23:01:15 slavik: sales for what? There is no N9. Sep 16 23:01:19 thiago_home: nope Sep 16 23:01:27 thiago_home: there won't be without any hype Sep 16 23:01:35 ljp: yeah, turns out that they do. There's a secondary codename... Sep 16 23:01:41 n10? Sep 16 23:01:46 slavik: there won't be any hype without an announcement :-) Sep 16 23:01:51 slavik: it's like warp factors now Sep 16 23:01:58 slavik: no Warp 10, no N10 Sep 16 23:02:13 you can generate plenty of hype with the help of mr blurrycam Sep 16 23:02:15 ugh Sep 16 23:02:24 thiago_home: but if there is no announcement now, when could one possibly happen? Sep 16 23:02:25 stupid vnc, will have to read this thread at home Sep 16 23:02:30 slavik, pick a device thats out there now. Sep 16 23:02:34 I don't like Arjan's last response though Sep 16 23:02:37 n900 ^ Sep 16 23:02:44 and run meego on it :) Sep 16 23:02:45 but I need more context Sep 16 23:02:48 any device Sep 16 23:02:51 slavik: I don't know and if even if I did, I wouldn't be allowed to say. Sep 16 23:02:51 so far, every company having an expo type thing always make latest/greatest announcements there Sep 16 23:02:58 Does n900 have a STABLE build of meego? Sep 16 23:03:00 that can run Sep 16 23:03:10 if you deny something loud enough, people start believing it Sep 16 23:03:12 b0tz: well, run yes. do useful things, no Sep 16 23:03:14 slavik, meego goes beyond one thing, have people run linux on the new iphone yet? Sep 16 23:03:17 * ljp tries to find flash instructions for aava Sep 16 23:03:17 slavik: the sooner I can give you an answer is the moment an announcement is made Sep 16 23:03:18 Ah.. Sep 16 23:03:27 ljp: dd onto SD card Sep 16 23:03:28 if so, can meego go ontop of it? Sep 16 23:03:35 ljp: don't try flashing. I bricked two Aavas trying that. Sep 16 23:03:41 oh thats right Sep 16 23:03:44 heh Sep 16 23:03:52 thiago_home: no jtag to recover an Aava? Sep 16 23:03:59 too bad my e90 can't run meego :( Sep 16 23:04:03 wmarone: I'm sure there are Sep 16 23:04:12 wmarone: the device was actually stuck in "firmware recovery mode" Sep 16 23:04:26 ah Sep 16 23:04:28 wmarone: but without a "firmware recovery tool" it's as good as bricked Sep 16 23:04:30 thiago_home, theres a guy building libmeegotouch on ubuntu Sep 16 23:05:06 ive asked him to keep the tweaks and twiddles he needs and submit them as a potential patch/MR Sep 16 23:05:25 slavik: no, but it can kill a person! Sep 16 23:05:40 I keep forgetting that the Aava handsets are x86 but otherwise totally alien to standard x86 HW Sep 16 23:05:40 that's what everyone keeps saying at owrk :( Sep 16 23:05:42 work* Sep 16 23:05:44 woo, nice lag spike Sep 16 23:06:26 the aavas are like what we're used to on ARM, except it's an Atom Sep 16 23:06:51 actually, it's worse... with Nokia ARM devices, we do have flashing stations and tools. Sep 16 23:07:07 /tmp/flasher --enable-rd-mode Sep 16 23:07:28 cool blinking keyboard to keep you up at night Sep 16 23:08:22 mikeleib: btw, there is one way you can get a prototype... find an excuse to spend a couple of weeks in the Oslo office :-) Sep 16 23:09:11 too bad there is no Nokia office in NYC Sep 16 23:09:34 * ljp gets back to backporting mobility stuff.. again Sep 16 23:09:49 in any case, going home. Sep 16 23:11:21 thiago_home: oslo beats helsinki :) Sep 16 23:11:43 in proto per capita, yeah Sep 16 23:11:49 btw, results are out Sep 16 23:14:28 * mikeleib has not been to oslo but has been to helsinki Sep 16 23:14:42 * mikeleib finds it more likely that he will return to helsinki than head to oslo soon Sep 16 23:15:46 csdb: thank you very much - I didn't think of that one :) Sep 16 23:15:52 thiago_home: what results? Sep 16 23:19:06 ljp: you could have made my mistake instead and tried qt-4.7/mobility on freebsd... Sep 16 23:23:31 slavik: meego conference Sep 16 23:23:36 * thiago_home goes to bed Sep 16 23:23:44 huh Sep 16 23:24:19 slavik: I said much the same about Denver, heh Sep 16 23:25:06 * mikeleib wonders what results Sep 16 23:33:53 * Kubuntiac also wonders "what results"... Sep 16 23:35:29 the results of the chosen papers for the conference Sep 16 23:36:45 Ahhhh.... Sep 16 23:38:30 They don't seem to say on the MeeGo conference site... that still says they're being decided :/ Sep 16 23:39:21 maybe results are not public yet Sep 16 23:39:39 the email says "you can see status when you view *your* proposal" (emphasis mine) Sep 16 23:41:09 ali1234: Ah, ok. Sep 16 23:50:15 what email? Sep 16 23:51:09 ali1234: has email? Sep 16 23:57:54 mikeleib: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-September/001864.html Sep 16 23:58:43 I don't see "accepted" on my talk :( Sep 16 23:59:05 this is an odd way of doing things Sep 17 00:14:45 :D Sep 17 00:15:14 CosmoHill: talking in Dublin? Sep 17 00:15:28 nope Sep 17 00:15:46 CosmoHill: smiles for other reasons, then Sep 17 00:15:52 indeed Sep 17 00:16:13 * mikeleib flees the scene Sep 17 00:16:29 * CosmoHill giggles Sep 17 00:16:32 night night Sep 17 02:00:53 impressive Sep 17 02:01:06 US carriers flex their abusive muscle and cripple the Tab Sep 17 02:03:59 ? Sep 17 02:04:11 wmarone: say what now? Sep 17 02:04:14 US Tab won't have voice capabilities apparently Sep 17 02:04:26 wetab? Sep 17 02:04:28 nono Sep 17 02:04:30 Samsung Sep 17 02:04:46 Galaxy Tab I should say Sep 17 02:05:22 http://therobotcoop.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/lg_tab.jpg Sep 17 02:49:49 Is this an OK place to ask newbie rpmbuild questions? :-) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 17 02:59:57 2010