**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 07 02:59:58 2010 Nov 07 09:30:46 humdidum Nov 07 09:31:00 indeed Nov 07 09:52:57 /win 26 Nov 07 09:56:00 Morning, all Nov 07 09:56:22 morn jaffa - how goes? Nov 07 09:58:29 Stskeeps: Little bit hung over, but not too bad. Nov 07 09:58:57 i'm compiling perl on a sunday morning, so i guess it's a bit like a hangover.. Nov 07 10:29:39 Stskeeps: hehe Nov 07 10:30:10 * sivang is off to lunch Nov 07 10:48:45 hey guys Nov 07 10:48:57 hey Nov 07 10:49:40 how's it going? Nov 07 10:49:47 it's going very well Nov 07 10:50:59 has anyone managed to get msn working in empathy in release 1.1? Nov 07 10:54:04 that's something I wouldn't know but wait around and someone will be able to answer Nov 07 10:54:22 all i get is networki error Nov 07 10:54:27 sweet cheers Nov 07 10:54:41 irc and facebook chat are working fine Nov 07 10:56:36 hm Nov 07 10:56:40 damn he left Nov 07 10:56:53 i was gonna post bug 2595 and see if it matched Nov 07 10:56:56 <_MeeGoBot_> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2595 nor, Undecided, ---, robert.bradford, NEED, None of the Chat Services I'm using AIM, Google Talk, Facebook etc are working. Nov 07 10:58:38 yup Nov 07 11:09:53 anyone know how to control a power point from a nokia phone via bluetooth? Nov 07 11:11:18 CosmoHill, using bluemaemo from the NITs you can control full computer as a HID device with keyboard control etc Nov 07 11:11:26 i dont know about a specific maemo oriented clicker tho Nov 07 11:11:35 mine is symbian Nov 07 11:12:06 look on ovi Nov 07 11:12:20 * CosmoHill goes to the door store Nov 07 11:12:57 synergy maybe that's exist on symbian ? Nov 07 11:14:28 CosmoHill: be courteous with the seller :) Nov 07 11:15:22 bluetooth remote control £3 Nov 07 11:16:02 hm. Nov 07 11:16:26 sods law says I'll have a dead battery on the day Nov 07 11:17:21 can't you just download a new battery Nov 07 11:26:42 I can control my blood pressure, diabetes and partner, but not my powerpoint Nov 07 11:27:24 CosmoHill, you have a wife-remote? Nov 07 11:28:00 just search for "control" on the ovi store and it should be on the first page Nov 07 11:28:30 does it just store credit card numbers ? Nov 07 11:29:05 I think you press a control on your phone and it sends it to his/hers Nov 07 11:32:00 I found something called Nokia Wireless presenter Nov 07 11:34:05 oo Nov 07 11:34:14 bluesuckit looks like a good thing for our uni network Nov 07 11:37:57 pst, why isn't the nokia 6220 classic listed on Nokia UK's website? Nov 07 11:53:57 sweet, I think I have my phone connected to my laptop as a 3G modem Nov 07 11:55:40 if so you'd have option driver loaded on laptop Nov 07 12:00:24 it seemed a little stupid using a 3G connection over bluetooth Nov 07 12:02:22 easier than digging the SIM card out of your phone and inserting it in laptop every time you want to connect to internet Nov 07 12:12:44 I've never had a laptop with a sim slot Nov 07 12:28:06 CosmoHill, this one does Nov 07 12:28:31 never plugged a sim in tho Nov 07 12:28:57 I always get annoyed by 3G contracts that come with a new computer and a USB dongle Nov 07 12:29:22 that depends on the kind of thing people want Nov 07 12:29:34 I mean the ones that come with netbooks Nov 07 12:29:38 some folks are happy with a serviced contract and internet included Nov 07 12:29:56 the bit that annoys me is the usb dongle part Nov 07 12:30:03 I think they should use netbooks with sim card slots Nov 07 12:30:09 we all have dongles Nov 07 12:32:15 I wouldn't mind a GPS and 3G combo PCI-E card Nov 07 12:32:19 *mini PCI-E Nov 07 12:44:43 CosmoHill, direct neural link Nov 07 13:07:23 hi Nov 07 13:08:35 he bambule Nov 07 13:08:58 i am wondering in howfar scratchbox is still relevant for meego. is it correct that it was used for cross compilation in maemo but in meego its out Nov 07 13:09:04 ? Nov 07 13:09:13 is this correct? Nov 07 13:11:55 bambule, the sdk for meego handset is essentially a virtual machine Nov 07 13:12:30 http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_the_MeeGo_SDK_for_Linux Nov 07 13:12:34 lcuk: if i run "mad make" where is the compiler executeD? Nov 07 13:12:40 i found the xephyr biuld to be simplest Nov 07 13:12:44 in the qemu or on the host Nov 07 13:12:47 ? Nov 07 13:12:49 host Nov 07 13:12:52 but there's no madde yet Nov 07 13:13:07 thiago Nov 07 13:13:12 upps Nov 07 13:13:34 thiago_home: that was also my impression. so how is the sdk then a VM? Nov 07 13:13:50 14:06 < lcuk> bambule, the sdk for meego handset is essentially a virtual machine Nov 07 13:14:00 lcuk: the xephyr is a non go for me. i don't have an intel chipset Nov 07 13:14:00 that was only 2 minutes ago Nov 07 13:14:29 thiago_home: yes, i remember :-) Nov 07 13:14:46 thiago_home: but apperently i didn't grok it Nov 07 13:15:15 * lcuk merely found the instructions and performance for xepyhr to be simplest and worked well enough to be usable Nov 07 13:15:32 when there's a madde, it will be a simple cross-compilation Nov 07 13:15:40 only for projects and apps that cross-compile properly Nov 07 13:15:51 madde is only for qt tho Nov 07 13:15:53 ? Nov 07 13:16:17 lcuk: really? i thought MADDE to be a general tool Nov 07 13:16:29 also its not ready for use yet? Nov 07 13:16:43 might explain the problems i had with it :-) Nov 07 13:17:02 * lcuk thought the meego sdk to be the general one, madde was geared as qt specific? i know people hack and try building other stuff in it and if it works and that is the direction then cool Nov 07 13:17:27 venemo is one such hacker who tried throwing everything at madde Nov 07 13:18:20 the MeeGo Qt SDK will be Qt specific Nov 07 13:18:30 and a bit more, but not much more Nov 07 13:18:36 lcuk: Afaik, madde assumes that you are using qmake Nov 07 13:18:42 thiago_home, will it allow libmeegotouch self building? Nov 07 13:18:46 thiago_home: the cross compiler lives somewhere inside the SDK but if the application that gets cross compiled isn't made for cross compilation the host will leak into the build Nov 07 13:19:04 lcuk: And qmake writes out absolute paths to madde executables etc Nov 07 13:19:07 lcuk: I don't know nor really care... Nov 07 13:19:22 thiago_home: so something that scratchbox prevents Nov 07 13:19:33 lcuk: what matters is applications Nov 07 13:19:58 lcuk: Once you figure out where everything is and write down the paths, madde works as a cross compiler Nov 07 13:20:08 Your makefiles become unportable though Nov 07 13:20:09 bambule: don't care about those either Nov 07 13:20:10 RST38h, sure Nov 07 13:20:21 if the application is made for cross-compilation and cross-compiles fine, MADDE will be enough Nov 07 13:20:25 otherwise, use the VM environment Nov 07 13:21:09 thiago_home: ah now it get it. another way to compile is to log into the QEMU image and use the compiler installed there Nov 07 13:21:37 this effectively prevents the host from leaking into the target Nov 07 13:22:18 lcuk: The main question though is how to compile non-qt apps with madde Nov 07 13:22:41 I.e. if my app uses a package that is notincluded into madde, what do I do? Nov 07 13:23:17 yup RST38h, that was something venemo was looking at Nov 07 13:24:25 I would guess a tool that takes a .deb file looks at contents and copies them into appropriate madde dirs (include, lib) Nov 07 13:24:35 Prolly ignoring the rest of the deb Nov 07 13:24:40 ahem Nov 07 13:24:46 s/deb/rpm/ Nov 07 13:25:03 s/deb/package Nov 07 13:25:06 even Nov 07 13:25:17 yea Nov 07 13:25:33 But I guess it does not make prinicipaldifference Nov 07 13:29:09 hi Nov 07 13:29:26 i was wondering what kind of benefits meego has over ubuntu on a netbook? Nov 07 13:31:21 space on hard disk Nov 07 13:31:34 ui Nov 07 13:32:09 differing package managers Nov 07 13:32:25 not a gas plant like ubuntu :) Nov 07 13:32:33 * lcuk cant wait for the meego character gen app to be available in install image Nov 07 13:33:49 * CosmoHill wonders if he can use his nokia as a GPS device for this laptop Nov 07 13:34:24 niala, that's a bit mean ;) Nov 07 13:35:10 pimp my meego Nov 07 13:35:12 well you did ask a question in a distro specific channel Nov 07 13:35:16 will meego limit what I can do in any way? Nov 07 13:35:27 would it be feasible to make a lemmingeqs game using proper meego characters :D Nov 07 13:35:51 psycho_oreos, yeah, true Nov 07 13:36:18 and what is diff between fedora, opensuse, ubuntu, mandrake, linpus, debian, gentoo, lfs, slackware, lukus ? Nov 07 13:36:43 (LFS is technically a book, not a distro) Nov 07 13:36:56 a cookbook rather :) Nov 07 13:37:02 Linux From Scratch CosmoHill :) Nov 07 13:37:12 niala: I know, I'm one of the devs :) Nov 07 13:37:18 well CLFS dev Nov 07 13:38:07 clfs ? Nov 07 13:38:14 Cross LFS Nov 07 13:38:25 Angry LFS Nov 07 13:38:32 there is an ALFS Nov 07 13:38:36 o_O Nov 07 13:38:39 * lcuk was joking Nov 07 13:38:39 I don't recommend it to newbies Nov 07 13:39:07 ah i know Alf the E.T Nov 07 13:39:54 * niala remember his firts distro was red hat 4 :) Nov 07 13:40:02 mine was kubuntu Nov 07 13:40:06 * lcuk first distro was maemo Nov 07 13:40:07 << rh8 Nov 07 13:40:13 real day to day use Nov 07 13:40:38 * lcuk had many boot cds for various things Nov 07 13:40:51 I did mandrava before that but was so confused Nov 07 13:41:34 yes very disappointing mandriva Nov 07 13:43:24 * RST38h tried many Linux distros but the first that actually worked was Ubuntu Nov 07 13:44:05 and Bsd** series Nov 07 13:44:18 Solaris and FreeBSD have confused me Nov 07 13:44:21 rh8 had issues with rpm crashing and forcing one to rebuild rpmdb.. what joy.. then there was fun messing with isapnp for getting sound blaster awe32 to work under linux Nov 07 13:44:32 freebsd have the best logo :) Nov 07 13:44:38 FreeBSD worked beautifully years before Linux Nov 07 13:44:56 bsd have created ip protocols Nov 07 13:45:03 * sivang wonders about his new meegon Nov 07 13:45:28 where's texrat the last couple of days? Nov 07 13:45:47 Possibly busy :) Nov 07 13:45:47 on call weekend Nov 07 13:46:07 lcuk: heyhey Nov 07 13:46:21 actually, hehey to leinir as well Nov 07 13:46:22 :) Nov 07 13:46:28 Heya :) Nov 07 13:46:44 leinir: should pack the docs with me soon to not forget them :) Nov 07 13:46:54 leinir: has the dot article went out already? Nov 07 13:46:54 Thanks :) Nov 07 13:47:04 No, i'm working on it right now Nov 07 13:47:16 It was... yeah, needs some work ;) Nov 07 13:47:25 * sivang is writing a post about syncevolution-akonadi and possible qt gui; results from OVI sprint. Nov 07 13:47:32 Very blog-entry-like, very much not an article :) Nov 07 13:47:42 s/OVI/Ovi/ Nov 07 13:47:44 leinir: well, I reckon it is best fitted that way Nov 07 13:47:55 leinir: right, Ovi, since it is 'door' in finnish Nov 07 13:48:08 Well, the Dot is a news outlet - blog articles are for the planet :) Nov 07 13:48:46 leinir: ah, I see. already read one blog post about it from you, with the photos and stuff Nov 07 13:49:19 *nods* Exactly my point :) Nov 07 13:49:49 leinir: I had some important notes to discuss before ironing the doc, I hope you got to those? I'm in concern we still don't get the full status on things, with random ML threads about maps/ syncevo work in meego etc. Nov 07 13:50:14 leinir: I tried to note it on the document, and kriztof added some as well Nov 07 13:50:20 There's two things in there - the dot article is separate for that, yeah :) Nov 07 13:51:13 heya leinir Nov 07 13:51:15 ah, I was referring tot he dot article yes Nov 07 13:51:28 leinir: I heard that we are making progress with the dot article? :) Nov 07 13:51:31 that would be great Nov 07 13:51:35 it's basically finished Nov 07 13:53:08 leinir: this was spotted by me a few days ago; http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.devel/6633 Nov 07 13:53:54 sivang: Hmm... Nov 07 13:55:39 leinir: and that one, for maps: http://www.mail-archive.com/meego-dev@meego.com/msg06281.html Nov 07 13:56:23 I was too busy to seriously look into how this falls in our document and if any, affects the request we'd be communicating to Ovi. Nov 07 13:57:08 I don't understand what the goal of meego is Nov 07 13:57:15 will meego be a competitor to android? Nov 07 13:57:16 Hmm... i'm thinking it probable that the only real impact is that we need to explain that when we say "API" in the document, what we actually mean is "REST API" ;) Nov 07 13:57:20 lukus: yes Nov 07 13:57:29 lukus: not will. is Nov 07 13:57:57 thiago_home, ok .. I suppose it's also a competitor to chrome os then too? Nov 07 13:58:01 leinir: ah, I see, so instead of a qt dbus wrapper we need a rest api for both? (maps/ovi sync) Nov 07 13:58:05 lukus: what does chrome os do? Nov 07 13:58:05 one OS for both markets segments Nov 07 13:58:14 sivang: *nods* Yeah :) Nov 07 13:58:29 chrome os is a low footprint os for netbooks and small devices Nov 07 13:58:34 probably tablets i imagine Nov 07 13:58:42 lukus: and cars ;) Nov 07 13:58:47 built to integrate with the fabled cloud Nov 07 13:58:58 lukus: can you run anything besides the browser? Nov 07 13:59:12 I'm not sure thiago_home Nov 07 13:59:41 meego is a Linux distro, so it can run anything Nov 07 13:59:42 most apps are designed to be browser orientated - but I'm sure there will be some traction away from that eventually Nov 07 13:59:45 k Nov 07 13:59:50 and it runs on not just netbooks and handhelds Nov 07 14:00:00 there's the automotive, connected TVs and STBs, tablets Nov 07 14:00:31 will meego have an app store? Nov 07 14:00:54 more than one Nov 07 14:02:06 ovi store, appup (from intel), and the meego garage (community thing) Nov 07 14:03:13 most likely more than that as well - it's known that at least Orange want their own Nov 07 14:04:22 meego mall Nov 07 14:04:30 lcuk: aaaah laik it ;) Nov 07 14:04:56 * lcuk has said for a long time that an app store app would be needed :) Nov 07 14:05:04 app store store rather :P Nov 07 14:05:23 *giggles* Yup! Well, as long as they speak OCS, there basically is one already ;) Nov 07 14:05:44 * lcuk carries on reading about planes Nov 07 14:06:02 leinir: the KDE store? :) Nov 07 14:06:08 lcuk: planes? Nov 07 14:06:29 sivang: no, there's a meego app which speaks OCS :) Nov 07 14:06:36 leinir: so I re-read the Knut document part, it seems well and apparently with collaborated work all points are there, I'll just add that we porbably want an REST api. Nov 07 14:06:43 leinir: which one? Nov 07 14:07:06 i can't remember the name - i'm not sure it's released as such, but it's there... frank was talking about it in his Bretzn presentation :) Nov 07 14:07:16 leinir: Bretzn? Nov 07 14:07:33 *nods* what i do for work ;) Nov 07 14:07:38 sivang, just having a read around wikipedia at the NASA x series experimental craft which pushed the boundaries :) Nov 07 14:07:51 why will people choose to buy apps when the platform is open? Nov 07 14:07:53 end-to-end-and-back solution for building and distributing applications :) Nov 07 14:08:09 * lcuk likes fast things Nov 07 14:08:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-15 Nov 07 14:08:41 lukus, i can fix my own car Nov 07 14:08:51 i can use a lathe to make new components Nov 07 14:09:01 but you know what - its just easier to get someone else to Nov 07 14:09:02 lukus: When we say "store", it's a little more involved than "buy stuff", really... :) it includes free stuff, donation systems and so on ;) Nov 07 14:09:07 okay Nov 07 14:09:19 and yes, of course, what lcuk said :) Nov 07 14:09:31 i'm just interested though - because the iOS store / android are used for selling IP Nov 07 14:09:45 i thought ip addresses were free? Nov 07 14:09:57 I'm not sure how the same model can work if an OS is truly open Nov 07 14:10:28 lcuk, I understand you can make / build your own software - but that's not a fair analogy Nov 07 14:11:00 why isnt it? car analogies are used everywhere Nov 07 14:11:13 the option isn't make or buy -> it's install for free or buy Nov 07 14:11:37 lcuk: you plan on taking it to come to Dublin? :) Nov 07 14:12:00 sivang, well i have to find a way to get there, i have missed window for work related flights Nov 07 14:12:04 I think the reason android / iOS attract so much commercial attention, is the fact that they operate closed app-ecosystems Nov 07 14:12:07 and my helicopter is a bit small Nov 07 14:14:02 lukus, freedom to choose. some people like to create art for all (graffiti), others like to hang them in a gallery and sell them Nov 07 14:14:39 a truly free system will allow everybody the room for expression Nov 07 14:14:51 I agree with you .. but there's a problem, in - how do we create conditions that encourage people to pay for software Nov 07 14:15:01 personally, I think software should be sold as a service Nov 07 14:15:30 (.. in the cases when the software author wants to sell for a price) Nov 07 14:15:40 those conditions already exist, as stated multiple app stores are being setup and people have already shown willingness to pay for software - thats not a problem Nov 07 14:16:12 people only pay for software when the alternative options are far worse, imo Nov 07 14:16:22 i remember the person selling crumpled balls of paper as art Nov 07 14:16:39 and making a healthy living from it when i saw Nov 07 14:16:41 that's possible - because art is a scarce resource .. Nov 07 14:16:45 Actually, people will sitll use worseoptions rather than paying Nov 07 14:17:13 RST38h, true .. but I think there's a limit Nov 07 14:17:15 lcuk: must have been one hell ofa salesman :) Nov 07 14:17:16 RST38h, make it simple and its less of an issue. Nov 07 14:17:23 a personal line, when people decide it's easier to pay Nov 07 14:17:24 lukus: there isn't:) Nov 07 14:17:38 * lcuk personally sees piracy as free advertising since word of mouth is one of the strongest forms of advertising Nov 07 14:17:56 RST38h, your line might be close to the point of 'no limit' Nov 07 14:18:07 lukus: true Nov 07 14:18:17 so put those apps on the tips of peoples tongues in an environent where they can pay easily and sales come in Nov 07 14:18:32 if software is sold as a service, I think a lot of problems are solved Nov 07 14:18:46 then make your software like that Nov 07 14:18:57 a decent micropayment system will change a lot of things I think Nov 07 14:19:01 other people want software as a boxed product on their shelf Nov 07 14:19:12 with a real manual and stuff Nov 07 14:19:29 teenagers want posters on their walls from favorite things Nov 07 14:19:47 * CosmoHill hides his posters Nov 07 14:19:50 lcuk, facebook walls? ;) Nov 07 14:19:52 haha Nov 07 14:20:17 actually I have comics, signed touring car posters and a pitcure of bobby :) Nov 07 14:20:32 bobby from home and away? Nov 07 14:20:36 * lcuk grins Nov 07 14:20:47 didn't she die? Nov 07 14:20:53 and come back a s ghost? Nov 07 14:20:55 idk Nov 07 14:20:55 no, he's a 5 year old Lancashire heeler dog Nov 07 14:21:27 I also have a Fedora 6 DVD stuck up there and my lecturer's marking scheme Nov 07 14:22:16 well - ive downloaded meego Nov 07 14:22:22 i once hung about 100 cans from ceiling as some sort of art Nov 07 14:22:23 going to put it on a usb stick Nov 07 14:22:46 the holes are still in my old bedroom ceiling Nov 07 14:24:09 I have some pictures stuck on the ceiling over where my bed used to be Nov 07 14:24:28 it's got 2002 written on it Nov 07 14:25:16 heh Nov 07 14:25:25 * lcuk just has a pinboard nowadays Nov 07 14:25:51 the last time I took a poster down was when we repainted it Nov 07 14:26:05 * lcuk will virtualise it soon :) Nov 07 14:26:55 luke had a poster over a hole in his wall. Nov 07 14:27:18 fixed the hole, then got grief cos his poster got crumpled in the process Nov 07 14:27:23 (customised stig one) Nov 07 14:28:37 * lcuk back to reading, bbl Nov 07 14:28:42 hehe Nov 07 14:29:25 my bed was infront of the cupboard so one day when I was at school, mum removed my cupboard doors and put a curtain up Nov 07 14:31:26 now if I close the curtain I look like a normal guy instead of some nut with a load of computers in the cupboard Nov 07 14:31:46 are the curtains frilly? Nov 07 14:31:56 if so, your normal guy persona is a bit off :P Nov 07 14:32:01 nope Nov 07 14:32:18 the remotes work through it tho which is good cos that's where all my AV gear is Nov 07 14:32:34 cool Nov 07 14:36:37 on a side note, you can silence a sky+ box by removing the hard drive and fan Nov 07 14:42:37 omg there's a littlewoods advert that uses music from Nightmare on christmas Nov 07 14:43:00 s/on/before/ Nov 07 14:43:00 CosmoHill meant: omg there's a littlewoods advert that uses music from Nightmare before christmas Nov 07 14:44:06 *nods* Yeah, i saw that earlier... it's... somewhat weird/scary/cool... not quite sure, lots of things ;) Nov 07 14:44:59 can settings be confligured in meego? Nov 07 14:47:20 lukus: it kind of depends on what you mean... but yes, in general... :) Nov 07 14:49:15 leinir, at the moment everything seems quite big Nov 07 14:52:51 i do like its simplicity tho Nov 07 14:55:06 could be nice to be able to link a google account Nov 07 14:55:12 for calendar and mail Nov 07 14:58:00 My guess is it'd be more likely that you would be able to link it with an Ovi account for those purposes... but yeah, a generic system for such details would be kinda nice :) Nov 07 14:58:18 yeah, twitter can be added globally .. Nov 07 14:58:33 shame google can't be added in the same way Nov 07 14:59:06 interface is quite snappy Nov 07 15:00:34 i wish everything wasn't so large though Nov 07 15:00:39 seems like a waste Nov 07 15:00:58 I read that as "everybody" Nov 07 15:01:36 heh Nov 07 15:02:04 the huge title bar seems pointless .. especially when it's only really used for 'X' Nov 07 15:02:21 .. and going back a step Nov 07 15:02:35 hmm, the VTech Mobigo looks like the Nokia N900 for the under 5s Nov 07 15:03:20 it does suffer from the fisher price effect Nov 07 15:18:39 can i switch between running applications? Nov 07 15:19:48 Nope, you can only start them *nods* Nov 07 15:20:50 hmmmm Nov 07 15:21:34 that's a mistake Nov 07 15:21:40 i hope the team change it Nov 07 15:22:42 Alright, i should probably point out that that was sarcasm - i know it does not translate into text very well :) Nov 07 15:22:51 ah .. Nov 07 15:22:54 ok Nov 07 15:23:12 Yes, of course you can switch between running applications :P Don't ask me how, i never used the netbook UX, but yes, of course you can Nov 07 15:23:12 i honestly thought you were telling it straight .. alt-tab isn't doing anything Nov 07 15:23:58 look through the various bits of the UI, there's going to be somewhere that'll list running applications and give you the choice to switch to them Nov 07 15:28:52 I might start using meego fulltime on my netbook Nov 07 15:35:42 leinir, what do you use meego on? Nov 07 15:36:29 i don't at the moment :) Nov 07 15:36:58 i don't have any spare devices that it fits on which i can afford to have suddenly not working :) Nov 07 15:37:19 (n900 is my main comms device, laptop is my main workstation...) Nov 07 16:17:14 hi guys. I already have an existing gentoo installation, and i'm not really interested in setting up another partition just so I can do meego development. I'd like to compile the meego environment on my system if possible. looking at http://meego.gitorious.org/ i can definitely see i need the qemu package, but im not sure what else i need to get an environment up and running Nov 07 16:21:53 bueillusion: the easiest way is to install the netbook version inside a VM (virtualbox works nicely), and develop there; you'll do the coding on x86 and test building on x86 too and while you're at it, you can spend time on getting the qemu systems up and running for you Nov 07 16:24:19 Bostik, that sounds like a good idea, i think I will try that. Nov 07 16:33:47 since your bringing up developing in the VM, has anyone solved the issue with the qtcreator and gdb issue? Nov 07 16:34:15 you might want to stick around for a day or two and pay attention to any discussion about "community obs" as that will be used to provide the native build environment for volunteer developers Nov 07 16:56:56 on top of grain and maize you also have wheat .... Nov 07 16:57:01 *ghee Nov 07 16:57:05 gzee Nov 07 17:19:46 with virtualbox in windows, my system after installed and configured shows only the background Nov 07 17:19:55 or ... "a" blue background Nov 07 17:20:20 but it seems to work, because i press acpi shutdown and it shuts down Nov 07 17:24:08 gass, i just experiences the same problem Nov 07 17:24:13 not sure what's going on Nov 07 17:24:23 except im running linux Nov 07 17:24:54 Bostik, any advice? Nov 07 17:25:17 i think i have all enable ... but it seems something is missing, maybe the window manager Nov 07 17:25:38 ah, it's the blasted "quiet" + X failing for any reason Nov 07 17:25:55 LOL Nov 07 17:26:08 Bostik, how can we make it come alive again? Nov 07 17:26:21 just pounce on tab as the vm boots, then 'e' to edit the boot commandline and remove the 'quiet' part Nov 07 17:26:26 may take a few tries Nov 07 17:26:35 that way at least you get a terminal version up Nov 07 17:27:49 LOL Nov 07 17:28:01 at least instead of a background ... i get "black" Nov 07 17:28:32 Bostik, vga=current? Nov 07 17:28:38 hi, I'm begginer in programming and i wand make a piece of app for meego OS (handset version). I'm know C and C++ language. what SDK you propose (btw. i don't know Qt framework) Nov 07 17:28:39 <_MeeGoBot_> c++ sucks Nov 07 17:28:47 *want Nov 07 17:33:33 what should i choose, Nokia Qt SDK or MeeGo SDK? Nov 07 17:34:10 gass: if that's the default parameter, then yes; the only thing you need to snuff out is the hideous "quiet" option Nov 07 17:34:36 (and whoever thought that 0s boot delay was a good decision deserves to be flogged) Nov 07 17:34:37 Bostik, it still freezes Nov 07 17:35:18 blegh Nov 07 17:35:34 I'll give the it a spin in a few minutes, just to see for myself Nov 07 17:42:23 gass, http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_1.0_Netbook_VirtualBox Nov 07 17:42:28 follow those instructions. it worked for me Nov 07 17:45:30 dm8tbr, i don't think having your _Meegobot_ spewing lines about c++ sucks is very wise. and unless you have official permission to actually call your bot a meegobot may also be frowned upon (unless you have permission) Nov 07 17:47:41 wyrwiszmat, the nokia qt sdk is specifically for qt app development, its just being updated to include meego as a target (afaik, might already be there) Nov 07 17:48:23 bueillusion, libglx then Nov 07 17:48:55 gass, yep, that was the problem for me Nov 07 17:54:05 lcuk: thx, so i use MeeGo SDK, whether will be problems with QEmu if i have machine with AMD64 architecture (and Ubuntu 10.10 Linux) Nov 07 17:56:34 mthemedaemon is crashing for me with: "mthemedaemon: symbol lookup error: mthemedaemon: undefined symbol: _ZN13QElapsedTimer10invalidateEv". My packages seem to be up to date. I thought that symbol was defined in qt-wayland, but that seems to be up to date as well. Any clue as to what I might be doing wrong? Nov 07 17:57:15 thanks bueillusion Nov 07 17:57:49 bueillusion, maybe you should change the meego version displayed there Nov 07 17:59:29 ah, that was it - the black screen even in non-quiet boot is the blank vt2, so you need to press ctrl-f1 to get the one working console Nov 07 17:59:48 and then kill off the respawning X process Nov 07 18:01:32 bueillusion, for me chmod +s /usr/bin/Xorg worked Nov 07 18:03:06 "sudo telinit 2" was probably a working spell, even if it's probably not the most correct one Nov 07 18:10:47 Bostik, only chmod +s /usr/bin/Xorg worked Nov 07 18:10:51 thanks Bostik bueillusion Nov 07 18:11:03 humm ... no office applications in meego Nov 07 18:12:50 gass meego netbook has capability to install oo.org i believe Nov 07 18:13:03 not sure which repo to use, i know some of the admins have had it running before now Nov 07 18:14:17 lcuk, abiword, it seems Nov 07 18:14:55 personally (and yes, professionally too) I'd like to see qt-mobility 1.1-b2 packaged for meego more than any office suite at this point in time; partly because I've spent the better part of two weeks trying to get it done myself and, of course, failing in not-quite-spectacular but certainly annoying ways Nov 07 18:15:21 hm Bostik Nov 07 18:16:47 lol Nov 07 18:17:03 humm ... meego netbook is a full gtk set Nov 07 18:17:07 as i can see Nov 07 18:17:13 (and glad to see it) Nov 07 18:17:16 lcuk: 1.0.2 package contains .spec file that is supposedly updated to 1.1.0 but there is something quite wrong with either the .spec or the tree; .pc files are not generated and when I modify the .pro files to get them done, their installation paths are for some reason overwritten to ${_libdir}, not pkg_config_path Nov 07 18:17:48 not quite spectacular, just incredibly annoying Nov 07 18:18:10 Bostik, do you know if anyone has filed an official bug/offered patch for this situation? Nov 07 18:18:26 lcuk: once I get it built, *I* will offer a patch myself Nov 07 18:18:30 sounds like the sorts of niggles people appear to have in numerous places Nov 07 18:18:40 :) then *I* will thank you now Nov 07 18:18:42 trust me on this one Nov 07 18:20:56 the biggest itchy-scratch with the mobility build is that all kinds of stuff that should be unix/linux "platformed" are bound to maemo5|maemo6 specific blocks; and if you have a Qt installation that has those targets, enabling the switch automatically modifies a LOT of paths you don't want or even know about Nov 07 18:21:18 ...got the scars Nov 07 18:21:20 * lcuk makes note that bostik is da man and will help with qt-mobility :D Nov 07 18:22:03 >> food Nov 07 18:22:40 lcuk: just so you know, I'm actually getting paid for it because our project absolutely needs qt-mobility 1.1 (tp+) and in about two or three weeks it's going to be a blocker issue... Nov 07 18:23:42 * Bostik is a mere integrator who wants to avoid getting dumped a metric buttload of manure on top of him Nov 07 18:24:27 oo, aparantly the day after my birthday we should get fibre optic broadband in the exchange :) Nov 07 18:34:47 hi, beginners question, can I use meego-handset-ia32-qemu-1.1.20101031.2201-sda.raw i.e. QEMU image with Xephyr? Where can I get the non-QEMU image if needed? Nov 07 18:39:11 madde55, meego downloads? Nov 07 18:39:40 http://meego.com/downloads/releases/1.1/meego-v1.1-handset Nov 07 18:39:42 ? Nov 07 19:33:29 gass: thanks, I was setupping Xephyr scripts in the meanwhile.. have to check into those images Nov 07 19:45:29 lcuk: oh, I thought that module was off. I only got it here to do bugzilla lookups. Nov 07 19:46:50 heh, standard supybot? ;p Nov 07 19:46:56 and the bugzilla lookups are useful Nov 07 19:47:03 lcuk: who should I talk to about the bot's nickname. I offered Stskeeps to get an bugzilla bot here and he agreed that it could be useful Nov 07 19:47:06 c++ Nov 07 19:47:14 ups, sorry Nov 07 19:47:26 I'm going to check which module that is and unload/blacklist it Nov 07 19:47:45 Stskeeps: it's a mozbot Nov 07 19:48:39 ah Nov 07 19:49:01 dm8tbr: generally it's me and DawnFoster running the irc stuff, i think it's fine, since it performs a service function for the meego project Nov 07 19:49:15 feel free to check with dawn as well Nov 07 19:49:18 ok Nov 07 19:50:59 bug 100 Nov 07 19:51:02 <_MeeGoBot_> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=100 nor, Medium, ---, qiang.z.zhang, RESO WORKSFORME, Software update will cause zone switching Nov 07 19:51:14 c++ Nov 07 19:51:15 if you notice other things the bot does it shouldn't please let me know. There may be other functions that I didn't notice Nov 07 19:51:30 no probs dm8tbr just with it insulting c++ ;) Nov 07 19:51:33 actually I don't know why it does the C++ thing Nov 07 19:51:55 sure, esp in the Qt context... Nov 07 19:52:40 lcuk, insulting c++ was cute ... in a chat room for c++ apps Nov 07 19:54:52 * javispedro envisions a future where irc bots' first step to enslave mankind is start insulting c++ on a qt channel Nov 07 19:56:04 lol Nov 07 19:56:17 javispedro, nahh Nov 07 19:56:42 the initial problem was inventing c++ in the first place ;) now its here we have to make the most Nov 07 19:58:44 poor c++ Nov 07 20:07:46 found the c++ thing. let's get rid of those Nov 07 20:19:10 damn.. I'm stuck with the ubuntu 10.10 64bit and QEMU problems, I guess there is no other way around than downgrading to 10.4. sad Nov 07 20:19:18 rebooting.. Nov 07 20:28:00 Has anyone installed #meego on #n8? I see that the topic has come up on this channel before, but so far no one has answered "yes"! Nov 07 20:28:39 Alison_Chaiken: that'll be a no - it's also probably difficult due to there being no public broadcom gfx drivers as well as bootloader being signed.. as well as us not having an armv5/armv6 port atm Nov 07 20:29:14 Alison_Chaiken: # here is for channel names only Nov 07 20:29:27 Alison_Chaiken: and the N8 is not a supported device, nor do people have access to flashing tools for it Nov 07 20:30:11 thiago_home: re hardfp, do you happen to have an exact set of gcc optimization flags you'd like to have? Nov 07 20:30:41 -mfpu=neon -march=armv7-a -mfloat-abi=hard Nov 07 20:30:54 but I'll settle for -mfpu=vfpv3 -march=armv7-a -mfloat-abi=hard Nov 07 20:31:40 (i actually have a working set of meego hardfp glibc, gcc, binutils atm - working to finish up the rest of the bootstrap packages) Nov 07 20:32:50 so hopefully we can get a proper port on the road soon :P Nov 07 20:32:59 Thanks thiago_home and Stskeeps. Nov 07 20:33:35 nice shooting guys Nov 07 20:34:04 well, that's the honest answer :P it is probably technically possible, but you'd have to be a nokian to pull it off Nov 07 20:35:12 Stskeeps: the runfast option requires a runtime flag being set Nov 07 20:36:16 well, question is where to place it, qt or glibc? :P Nov 07 20:36:31 glibc or kernel Nov 07 20:36:49 but this requires more investigation, since runfast turns off IEEE compatibility Nov 07 20:36:52 IEEE754 Nov 07 20:36:58 yeah Nov 07 20:37:17 once we're at -mfloat-abi=hard it's flexible to experiment i guess Nov 07 20:37:21 Query: is it useful to report bugs (IVI image) on applications called "sample"? Nov 07 20:37:21 also note that there's vfpv3 and vfpv3-d16 Nov 07 20:37:33 do we support D16 devices? Nov 07 20:37:43 smithna: yes Nov 07 20:37:53 smithna: the sample apps are supposed to be fully-functional Nov 07 20:37:55 well, is there anything but d16 armv7 devices? Nov 07 20:38:06 thiago_home: ok, thanks Nov 07 20:38:21 Stskeeps: the d32 ones, like N900 Nov 07 20:38:30 well, i suppose it does d16 too Nov 07 20:38:47 they do d16. But -mfpu=vfpv3 would use d17, d18, ... Nov 07 20:38:47 vfpv3 implies -d32? Nov 07 20:38:53 from the name, I guess so Nov 07 20:39:12 well, current mfpu is vfpv3 in armv7 port in general Nov 07 20:40:36 ok, so, seems like we don't even support nvidia and marvell in meego atm Nov 07 20:40:43 they have vfpv3 d16 Nov 07 20:41:01 * thiago_home talked to NVidia on Friday Nov 07 20:41:04 (tegra2, marvell dove) Nov 07 20:41:15 told them to get their act straight and get Neon Nov 07 20:41:28 so in theory we might as well go to -mfpu=neon without harming anyone Nov 07 20:41:39 but, does -mfpu=neon do doubles in soft? Nov 07 20:41:50 javispedro: Qt uses float almost everywhere Nov 07 20:41:57 and performance of floats in Neon is much better Nov 07 20:42:04 qreal being qfloat, I know :) Nov 07 20:42:18 still... Nov 07 20:42:21 floats on the VFP are good, provided we have runfast on Nov 07 20:42:23 javispedro: we're also porting to mfloat-abi=hard atm Nov 07 20:42:33 if it's off, the performance is horrible on Cortex-A8 (worse than ARM11) Nov 07 20:43:04 still better than soft Nov 07 20:43:24 yeah, no doubt Nov 07 20:43:46 so that's the question, will gcc emit softfp for doubles when fpu=neon? Nov 07 20:44:02 or will it emit... vfp3? (doesn't sound like it) Nov 07 20:46:09 softfp uses the VFP hardware Nov 07 20:46:29 * thiago_home did some quick checking and didn't see much of a difference between -mfpu=neon and -mfpu=vfpv3 Nov 07 20:46:40 heh. Nov 07 20:46:41 it uses only in a couple of special cases Nov 07 20:46:54 like loading a 0 or 1 Nov 07 20:47:20 so it would use the vfp. Nov 07 20:47:24 yes Nov 07 20:47:28 it uses the vfp Nov 07 20:47:54 interesting Nov 07 20:48:23 but it uses d16 and d17 at first, so it definitely wouldn't run on D16 HW Nov 07 20:49:36 well, one less argument against not simply enabling mfpu=neon, even for armv7-softfp.. Nov 07 20:49:49 maybe use fpu=vfp3 by default, with -ffast-math adding a run_fast_enable() call in each function prologue... Nov 07 20:50:03 hehe Nov 07 20:50:08 sounds crazy. Nov 07 20:50:10 it does use neon in a couple of places, which is enough to cause crashes if the CPU doesn't have Neon Nov 07 20:50:21 Qt has some unprotected Neon code too Nov 07 20:51:20 Stskeeps: btw, can I pm for an unrelated issue? Nov 07 20:51:24 *pm you Nov 07 20:51:31 yes, go ahead Nov 07 20:51:33 * thiago_home needs to send the confirmations for the lightning talks Nov 07 21:02:35 thiago_home: raised issue that we might as well move to mfpu=neon for softfp Nov 07 21:02:42 on meego-dev Nov 07 21:02:50 at least we can get a win there while we await the hardfp work Nov 07 21:03:34 Qt enables Neon on its own for the raster engine Nov 07 21:03:47 the only unprotected code is in string handling and, to be honest, the gain isn't that high Nov 07 21:04:18 have you read http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/ARM-Options.html? (search for neon) Nov 07 21:04:21 er.. Nov 07 21:04:27 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/ARM-Options.html Nov 07 21:04:31 since I've just verified that -mfpu=neon still generates a lot of VFP instructions on gcc 4.5, I really don't think it will be much of a gain Nov 07 21:04:38 hard-float is a lot more important Nov 07 21:04:42 "If the selected floating-point hardware includes the NEON extension (e.g. -mfpu=`neon'), note that floating-point operations will not be used by GCC's auto-vectorization pass unless -funsafe-math-optimizations is also specified." Nov 07 21:05:20 there's also neon-d16 Nov 07 21:05:34 for tegra 2 I guess? Nov 07 21:06:43 * thiago_home looks at the assembly output and sees that -funsafe-math-optimizations produced worse code Nov 07 21:06:50 * RST38h somehow doubts the positive performance effects of Neon Nov 07 21:06:55 f /= 2.5; for example calculated with double Nov 07 21:07:00 At least on the CortexA8 Nov 07 21:07:07 if I make it f /= 2.5f; then it works as well as without -funsafe-math-optimizations Nov 07 21:07:16 A9 may be a different business Nov 07 21:07:34 what's worse is that Neon is technically optional in A9... Nov 07 21:07:35 actually, better. It uses fmacs (multiply-accummulate) Nov 07 21:08:06 javispedro: yeah, but ARM vendors are realising that they should have it Nov 07 21:09:48 hopefully.. Nov 07 21:17:09 * CosmoHill signs Nov 07 21:17:17 s/signs/sighs Nov 07 21:18:50 * Jartza signs and sighs Nov 07 21:19:06 third person today has asked me the same question Nov 07 21:19:46 what question? Nov 07 21:20:23 basically "why won't gcc pass 1 compile" Nov 07 21:20:30 the answer: because they didn't follow the book Nov 07 21:23:12 gcc requires mpc, mpfr and gmp, these have normally been put in the wrong location Nov 07 21:59:33 funny, chroot an meego-ivi into a meego-netbook and you will have a new panel whos is interact with all app netbook running Nov 07 22:02:44 niala: are you one of those spambots who just slumps random words? Nov 07 22:03:14 maybe a wrong translate Nov 07 22:03:48 CosmoHill: Nov 07 22:03:55 * CosmoHill gives niala a muffin Nov 07 22:04:08 tybollt: no, he's french Nov 07 22:04:09 :) Nov 07 22:08:42 CosmoHill: better like that? : chroot an meego-ivi into a meego-netbook and you will have a new panel who interact with all app netbook already running Nov 07 22:09:12 CosmoHill: that explains so much on so many levels, thank you :-D Nov 07 22:09:43 niala: not really making sense no :) Nov 07 22:09:55 if you chroot meego-ivi in meego-netbook you will have a new panel that displays all the currently running apps? Nov 07 22:10:08 voilà Nov 07 22:10:34 CosmoHill: tresbien Nov 07 22:10:51 :) Nov 07 22:17:04 oo, Reading shirt is £10 cheaper :) Nov 07 22:20:10 CosmoHill: because they fall ? :p Nov 07 22:20:15 :o Nov 07 22:30:34 CosmoHill, did they relabel them as cleaning rags as well? :p Nov 07 22:31:28 wtf, £7 to have numbers on the shirt Nov 07 22:31:41 * CosmoHill glares at lcuk Nov 07 22:32:04 :D Nov 07 22:32:12 I'm not sure how I managed to get a £35 shirt up to £53 Nov 07 22:32:17 which number would you have CosmoHill Nov 07 22:32:24 21 Nov 07 22:32:48 £4 delivery? Nov 07 22:33:02 (£3 of that is shame fee for the postman to actually carry it :P) Nov 07 22:33:15 actually delivery isn't mentioned Nov 07 22:33:50 £1 per letter, £3.50 per number, £35 for the shirt and £5 for the patch Nov 07 22:45:03 I have no idea why I'm looking at all this reading crap....I mean quality merch Nov 07 23:25:36 Hello Nov 07 23:33:14 cyas Nov 08 00:08:21 Stskeeps: ping Nov 08 00:11:02 ddompe, he's probably asleep for several more hours :) Nov 08 00:11:24 johnx: thanks! Nov 08 00:11:44 he *might* still be awake, but probably not Nov 08 00:12:28 someone have an idea why I get an message: "Server returned an error: HTTP Error 401: Unauthorized" when trying to import a project into a fresh OBS... Nov 08 00:12:44 I'm using Stskeeps script from http://wiki.meego.com/User:Stskeeps/10_easy_steps_to_a_local_OBS Nov 08 00:13:08 was it right at the end after it had already done a bunch of downloading? Nov 08 00:13:25 johnx: right Nov 08 00:13:32 I think I saw that too Nov 08 00:13:43 it download everything, but failed to connect to my OBS Nov 08 00:13:53 I was going to try and figure that out later today Nov 08 00:14:05 which OBS server 'image' are you using? Nov 08 00:14:23 custom-made :S Nov 08 00:14:32 maybe my OBS server is old Nov 08 00:14:32 wow Nov 08 00:14:46 the script might also try and login with a default password? Nov 08 00:15:35 I saw my server is asking for http authentication, but I don't see how to say to the osc command what user/pass to use Nov 08 00:16:06 maybe in your ~/.oscrc (or similar? don't have it in front of me) Nov 08 00:16:10 ahh Nov 08 00:16:23 great, that was the kind of info I was looking for, I will give it a try Nov 08 00:22:56 johnx: I figure it out, the script doesn't ask for user and password if it wasn't set Nov 08 00:23:07 I will tip Stskeeps tomorrow about it Nov 08 00:23:26 ah, nice Nov 08 00:23:32 that helps me quite a bit. thanks :D Nov 08 00:27:34 just modify the .oscrc to enter your user and password Nov 08 00:28:39 almost certainly, the second part of my problem was caused by using an old version of the obs-server image Nov 08 00:28:52 and I think it had a different default admin password :) Nov 08 01:17:04 help channel-pref Nov 08 01:17:54 help: there is no help Nov 08 01:18:26 miss "/" in the beginning, I got it. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Nov 08 02:59:57 2010