**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 03 02:59:58 2011 Jan 03 04:49:40 Has anyone tried to run meego on a droid 2, by any chance? Jan 03 04:51:29 morning Jan 03 04:51:59 night :) Jan 03 06:53:41 join #235 Jan 03 07:32:18 iekku: when are we doing core bug triage? Jan 03 07:33:24 Stskeeps, wondering the same Jan 03 07:34:05 we developers are a bit bored since meego.gitorious is down and OS ;) Jan 03 07:34:13 :D Jan 03 07:34:20 so, shall we keep it Jan 03 07:45:47 * timeless_mbp sighs Jan 03 07:45:54 ok, i fixed mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/ Jan 03 07:45:56 silly me Jan 03 07:46:05 * timeless_mbp has two web server roots and was changing the wrong one :( Jan 03 07:46:13 "oops" Jan 03 07:58:01 hrm Jan 03 07:58:04 Stskeeps: ? Jan 03 07:58:12 http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/source/syncevolution-1.0beta3/ Jan 03 07:58:27 isn't it a violation of rpm lint to have in a package name? Jan 03 07:58:49 -- from http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/search?string=serveral&filter=\bserveral\b Jan 03 08:01:28 hey, anybody happen to know where TDriver bugs go? Development tools in bugs.m.c? Jan 03 08:02:58 meego quality assurance/tdriver Jan 03 08:03:14 just found it, thanks Jan 03 08:04:05 can't not thing of testing as a development tool instead of a qa tool :) Jan 03 08:04:44 you're a proper test driven developer then :) Jan 03 08:10:48 one aspires, thanks Jan 03 08:15:44 hmm when did you try that installation? Jan 03 08:16:42 like 5 minutes ago? :) Jan 03 08:17:18 lemme see, I'm having some other package issues too, maybe the caches are out of date Jan 03 08:17:28 make sure it's trying to install 1.0 Jan 03 08:17:32 I thought I fixed that to it Jan 03 08:17:46 well, it wasn't, it was 0.9.x so that must've been it Jan 03 08:18:12 yep, my apt thinks 0.9.2 is the latest Jan 03 08:18:17 can you try again, I'm working blind as I don't have a ubu 10.10 here.. Jan 03 08:18:18 hm, thought I refreshed that Jan 03 08:18:23 yes, sec Jan 03 08:22:39 yep, out of date proxy settings + silently failing programs ftl Jan 03 08:23:04 did it install now? Jan 03 08:23:35 yep Jan 03 08:24:03 does it work? :) Jan 03 08:24:03 X-Fade: ping Jan 03 08:24:17 gimme another minute :) Jan 03 08:25:12 X-Fade: resolved :) Jan 03 08:28:39 adeus, app seems to load the plugin but the visualizer starts in offline mode complaining that "Could not bring TDriver interface to running state! Jan 03 08:28:50 visualizer's still at 0.9.2 in the repo it seems Jan 03 08:28:59 wonder if that'd affect it Jan 03 08:29:13 did you install tdriver packages? Jan 03 08:29:57 qttas and everything it pulled in Jan 03 08:30:09 so no :) Jan 03 08:30:12 hm Jan 03 08:30:25 wait as sec, I'll ask about the host installation package Jan 03 08:30:48 I had a git build before, I'm trying to transition to the official packages, might've missed something Jan 03 08:31:00 I mean the gems Jan 03 08:31:26 yes, that must've been the missing bit Jan 03 08:32:03 look at "installing tdriver" in the guide Jan 03 08:32:11 ah, the visualizer must be using the wrong ruby Jan 03 08:32:20 'cause my system ruby has those gem Jan 03 08:32:22 +s Jan 03 08:32:24 but this will all go a away soonish as we will provide a host "do it all" package Jan 03 08:32:49 yep, works now :) Jan 03 08:33:46 it was just picking up an rvm ruby that didn't happen to have the gems Jan 03 08:35:18 adeus, I'm gonna resolve the bug if you don't mind? Jan 03 08:35:37 go right ahead Jan 03 08:35:51 mark it as alreadyfixed Jan 03 08:36:19 doesn't have that resolution option Jan 03 08:36:25 only fixed Jan 03 08:36:34 interesting Jan 03 08:36:46 I'll update the visualizer package when obs wakes up Jan 03 08:36:48 ball's in your court then I guess Jan 03 08:37:48 or looks like meego just doesn't have it Jan 03 08:39:03 I just marked it as fixed than as it used to be an issue Jan 03 08:54:15 */win 24 Jan 03 08:54:18 oh Jan 03 09:23:35 anyone here present participating on the "MeeGo on nonSSSE3 x86 Hardware" -project? Jan 03 09:31:35 hi, i have two widgets in Qt, one playing mplayer in a QProcess and the other is a small transparent ellipse. When I instatiate them as two different widgets they come up on different DISPLAYs. How do i get them on the same DISPLAY with the transparent widget on top of the mplayer widget Jan 03 10:52:38 * abogani waves all Jan 03 10:53:06 Apologize for my very bad English and for stupid question: Is MeeGo usable as Desktop system? Thanks in advance! Jan 03 10:54:33 well, it's more targetting as a netbook system on that angle Jan 03 11:13:03 11:09:31 up 400 days, 12:39, 0 users, load average: 0.46, 0.11, 0.04 :D Jan 03 11:13:09 \o/ Jan 03 11:14:01 salut timeless Jan 03 11:14:09 hi Jan 03 11:14:13 my network is flaking Jan 03 11:14:15 CosmoHill: 0 users (: Jan 03 11:14:39 considering I just got up I'd be worried if there were users Jan 03 11:33:59 morning Jan 03 12:28:01 * timeless_mbp pokes sivang Jan 03 12:28:02 have the kernel sources been forked for different devices? Jan 03 12:28:12 sure :) Jan 03 12:28:25 there's the netbook fork and the handset fork Jan 03 12:28:30 and there's iirc an ivi fork Jan 03 12:28:35 those are all different devices :) Jan 03 12:28:55 then there would presumably be the private forks which contain unfinished work which hasn't yet been sent upstream :) Jan 03 12:28:58 And there is a set top box version as well (MeegoTV) Jan 03 12:29:05 no, the N900 fork that was discussed on #meego-meeting Jan 03 12:29:33 RST38h: oh yes, how could i forget? :) Jan 03 12:30:33 timeless_mbp: maybe it was all that booze on new years? Jan 03 12:30:50 CosmoHill: maybe, too bad i don't drink Jan 03 12:30:55 * timeless_mbp keeps missing out on good excuses Jan 03 12:31:52 "what are you doing with a traffic cone on your head?" What? you mean I can't wear one cos I'm sober? Jan 03 12:32:11 pretty much :( Jan 03 12:42:34 X-Fade: could you add the community OBS access for me? Working with MeeGo multimedia & it might be handy having that access as well if there's a need to package something outside build.meego.com (+ possibility for own projects:). Nick is sandst1. Jan 03 12:43:19 sandst1: Sure, you should be able to login now. Jan 03 12:43:52 X-Fade: yeap, works. Thanks! Jan 03 14:18:07 quiet :) Jan 03 14:22:57 hello there Jan 03 14:23:19 hello arkub Jan 03 14:23:21 tab fail Jan 03 14:23:22 Everyone is reading the Linux Magazine article on MeeGo Jan 03 14:23:25 hello araujo Jan 03 14:23:29 public OBS down guys? Jan 03 14:23:31 jeremiah: link pls Jan 03 14:24:13 jeremiah: i didn't find it terribly objective :/ doesn't cover the facts and what is being done to remedy some problems Jan 03 14:24:17 http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7929?hq_e=el&hq_m=1148926&hq_l=3&hq_v=4e7fda2aa4 Jan 03 14:24:22 so it felt a little more like just angry bile Jan 03 14:24:41 Stskeeps: Well, I don't know. Zonker has a pretty good reputation Jan 03 14:24:54 Stskeeps: So I'm not sure everyone is going to write this off as him just spewing. Jan 03 14:25:06 I also think some of it is justified frankly. Jan 03 14:25:33 jeremiah: some of it is justified but some of it isn't, but the trademark discussion is a longer one Jan 03 14:25:39 The trademark stuff is a mess Jan 03 14:27:01 jeremiah: Its introduction says there is a loud and continuous drumbeat of criticism. Doesn't cite who from, and then talks about the couple of downstream projects trying to repackage MeeGo into !MeeGo (due to the silly trademark situation MeeGo's got itself into). That's hardly the deathknell for MeeGo *itself* Jan 03 14:28:02 Jaffa: Oh I agree. And he misunderstands how MeeGo is different Jan 03 14:28:14 It is designed to unify devices, not Linux Distros Jan 03 14:28:35 So he missed some very important points with why compliance is so important Jan 03 14:29:38 But still, the project is late with hardware examples, Intel and Nokia could be communicating more, and they have alienated people with a semi-draconian trademark policy. Jan 03 14:30:11 X-Fade, Hi, I would like to have access to community OBS too in order to get rpms for telepathy-glib etc. My Meego login is albanc. Also, the website https://build.pub.meego.com/ is broken at the moment isn't it? Jan 03 14:30:42 on a personal sidenote, i don't fully understand why people expect to be able to use registered trademarks (or sounding alike ones) for similar services and then be pissed off when they get told they can't.. Jan 03 14:30:48 jeremiah: Oh, there's a great irony in this article about openness, communication, collaboration and FLOSS principles: "Sorry, comments are closed on this post." Jan 03 14:31:08 Stskeeps: there are some valid points in the article Jan 03 14:31:11 Stskeeps: "Real FOSS projects work to remove barriers to contribution and reuse, not to erect them." Jan 03 14:32:03 Venemo: well, except that it is deeply ironic when reading opensuse's own trademark policy and then that sentence, in extended context :P Jan 03 14:32:30 Stskeeps: I don't have problems with the trademark policy Jan 03 14:33:14 Stskeeps: what I would improve upon is more docs, and more ways to involve community contribution Jan 03 14:33:40 Stskeeps: for example MohammadAG told me that he wanted to study the kernel sources, but he was told to wait because the gitorious code is a mess Jan 03 14:34:18 Venemo: yes, he was told that by me and a week after we switched kernel policy to make things clearer Jan 03 14:34:26 and then thought there was a "upstream only" policy, and people laughed at me, and I went hide in the corner :| Jan 03 14:34:48 ShadowJK: eh? Jan 03 14:34:49 :P Jan 03 14:34:55 and then I* Jan 03 14:35:05 But MeeGo hasn’t just alienated downstream repackaging, they’ve also managed to drive off a kernel contributor. Specifically, Greg Kroah-Hartman threw in the towel in late November after a lot of fruitless discussions with folks employed to work on MeeGo’s kernel for failing to submit significant changes upstream. --------> WTF? Jan 03 14:35:37 Venemo: fruitless discussion being greg asking every single time if something is upstream or not Jan 03 14:35:45 i see this point raised from time to time, where people imply that meego is "more open" than android, can anyone give any specific reasons why this is the case? Jan 03 14:36:44 ali1234: can you see android vcurrent + 1 development anywhere? Jan 03 14:37:16 i don't know... i guess you're saying you can't :) Jan 03 14:37:40 albanc: Site should be back up, was reconfiguring a redirect. Jan 03 14:38:10 ali1234: android basically dumps the source of the current stable release, and that's it in it about openness Jan 03 14:38:11 albanc: It can't find your account, did you register it recently? Jan 03 14:38:24 ali1234: so its source is open, but it doesn't have an open development model Jan 03 14:38:29 Venemo: the policy now is more realistic for product development, upstream required in reasonable time Jan 03 14:38:47 ali1234: MeeGo on the other hand is fully developed in the open Jan 03 14:38:54 what about other aspects such as community involvement? Jan 03 14:38:57 Stskeeps: sounds good to me Jan 03 14:39:37 i mean, android has a documented process for submitting patches, same as meego does Jan 03 14:39:48 ali1234: depends on what you mean by community involvement :) patches towards code in android is likely to be ditched as you are sending a patch to a moving target you can't see Jan 03 14:41:00 so unless you're in the warmth, your patches are difficult Jan 03 14:42:34 i'm not saying meego is perfect, because there's areas that's still a bit annoying, but it could be a lot worse :P Jan 03 14:43:13 is android really that bad though? Jan 03 14:44:49 ali1234: I think so, yes. but if you ask Android fans, you may get another response Jan 03 14:45:12 http://source.android.com/faqs.html Jan 03 14:46:00 ali1234: at least the stock applications are utterly impossible for real work use: default calendar depends on google account and uses the remote calendar as storage backend; for my part, I do not want *any* of my appointments known to a major snoop Jan 03 14:46:38 I can even imagine quite a lot of situations where such a thing would violate several security policy chapters Jan 03 14:46:44 Bostik: none of that stuff is open source, just like the nokia meego UX which connects to ovi account probably won't be open source Jan 03 14:46:56 with AOSP you can't use your google login... Jan 03 14:48:12 ali1234: i'm however willing to admit that i don't know deep specifics about android contribution practices, but what i do know of, meego does better in terms of openness Jan 03 14:49:18 ali1234: suffice it to say, there are MeeGo reference application which are open source and will be there for anyone to use. regardless of what Nokia or other manufacturers will make. Jan 03 14:50:55 Venemo: but it's fair to say that the quality of those applications will depend upon the community to support them. there's nothing to stop the community adding vanilla apps to AOSP... Jan 03 14:51:23 ali: AFAIK Android is not open to contributions Jan 03 14:51:40 ali: Developed internally by Google, released as they see fit Jan 03 14:52:01 their webpage says it is... just as the meego webpage says it is... if you want to talk about disparity between actions and words, meego has plenty of that too... Jan 03 14:52:17 ali: There was also some controversy when Linux kernel aristocracy refused to accept their kernel patches Jan 03 14:52:46 ali: I am not saying that Meego is open to contributions, not this. Jan 03 14:52:51 s/not/note Jan 03 14:53:09 Stskeeps: talking about patches getting dumped ... i wrote patches for symbian :) Jan 03 14:53:09 but really, the trademark stuff is stupid ... debian has trademark terms too ... everyone does ... if i tried to make a distribution called debian, the Debian Legal team would flame me into oblivian Jan 03 14:53:11 my question is not "why does android suck?" it's "what's the different between android and meego?" Jan 03 14:53:14 RST38h: so in your opinion MeeGo is not open to contributions? Jan 03 14:53:34 Venemo: I do not know. Probably not much, but that is my guess Jan 03 14:53:47 there's even a patch escalation process, so we are open to patches Jan 03 14:53:54 timeless_mbp: did they accept your patch for Symbian? (what did it to btw?) Jan 03 14:53:55 and it's even without paperwork, just signed-off-by Jan 03 14:53:55 :P Jan 03 14:53:55 ali: Was that a rhetorical question or do you expect an answer? Jan 03 14:54:05 Venemo: one of them was accepted Jan 03 14:54:08 after about 8 months Jan 03 14:54:14 it was a spelling fix Jan 03 14:54:19 ehh. Jan 03 14:54:24 i.e. hundreds of changes Jan 03 14:54:26 RST38h: bit of both Jan 03 14:54:33 Stskeeps: Having a process does not mean anyone can follow it to the end, but anyway Jan 03 14:54:36 Venemo: the point was to see how their process for taking patches worked Jan 03 14:54:40 the answer was "very poorly" Jan 03 14:54:43 timeless_mbp: ridiculous, especially considering that you work for the same company Jan 03 14:54:45 X-Fade, yes, I created it today Jan 03 14:54:46 but ... it technically worked Jan 03 14:54:53 Venemo: actually, that made it worse Jan 03 14:55:01 i could call the people if i wanted to Jan 03 14:55:17 but because we shared an employer, i was *required* to use my employer's email address Jan 03 14:55:21 (hello spam) Jan 03 14:55:30 and every month they forced the account to be locked Jan 03 14:55:47 to ensure that i was still employed by the employer when i next tried to use it Jan 03 14:55:48 ali1234: ok, so, differences: open development, daily, weekly and live dumps of source code, meego.gitorious.org. patches submittable through open process. open roadmap process (you can see what's planned for 1.2, for instance).. probably more examples Jan 03 14:55:52 timeless_mbp: why is that? Jan 03 14:56:01 timeless_mbp: interesting Jan 03 14:56:04 ali1234: what android does better is the amount of standard board adaptations, though :P Jan 03 14:56:08 Venemo: since my commit agreement was between nokia and symbian Jan 03 14:56:20 if i ceased to be employed by nokia, my commit agreement would be void Jan 03 14:56:26 ah! Jan 03 14:56:33 but they had no way of knowing if i ceased Jan 03 14:56:39 so instead, they locked the account monthly Jan 03 14:56:47 a reset involved sending a new email to the address Jan 03 14:56:55 still ridiculous. Jan 03 14:56:57 which ensured i was still employed (or w/in a couple of weeks of having left) Jan 03 14:56:59 oh, absolutely Jan 03 14:57:02 Stskeeps: well ok, you have the roadmap and the dev versions visible... but that is all still (possibly) one-way... Jan 03 14:57:23 ali1234: as well as http://source.android.com/source/cla-individual.html vs signed-off-by Jan 03 14:57:38 ok, that's a good one Jan 03 14:57:41 Stskeeps: what does signed-off-by mean? Jan 03 14:57:57 Venemo: signed-off-by is more or less a review Jan 03 14:58:07 nah, there is reviewed-by: for that Jan 03 14:58:41 Venemo: http://kerneltrap.org/files/Jeremy/DCO.txt Jan 03 15:00:25 ali1234: in terms of getting things on the roadmap, there's a thing regarding support, ie, two roles must exist, implementor and QA and you 'own' the feature, ie, you commit to supporting the feature/keeping it maintained, or it gets dumped Jan 03 15:01:04 Venemo: see /msg for my other story :) Jan 03 15:01:24 there's practically nothing against a loose band of community members performing those roles, as long as it gets done :P Jan 03 15:08:59 jeremiah: what's new in IVI land anyway? Jan 03 15:34:22 my repo appears to be down. is there something wrong with repo.pub.meego.com? Jan 03 15:38:45 yes Jan 03 15:42:42 mortenmj: Should be ok now again. Jan 03 15:44:44 works for me now Jan 03 16:08:31 X-Fade, lbt_away : Is my Meego account 'albanc' now visible to you by any chance? Jan 03 16:09:29 X-Fade, lbt_away : rgs_ would like the same access btw (login: 'rgs') Jan 03 16:09:43 albanc: No, but we seem to have a delay in the account sync from meego.com. I'm trying to find out why that happens. Jan 03 16:10:13 ok. Thanks! Jan 03 16:34:08 hello Jan 03 16:34:23 meego sdk 1.1 says that kqemu is not working in vista 64bit. is there easy hack for work-around Jan 03 16:36:01 *sigh Jan 03 16:38:51 even it's not supported... Jan 03 16:44:15 Ans5i: try running in compatibility mode? [joke] Jan 03 16:59:01 Venemo: life is too short for that. :) Jan 03 17:06:07 Bugzilla doesn't distinguish between bugs and features? Jan 03 17:06:07 Huh? Jan 03 17:07:40 where's that? Jan 03 17:07:42 http://www.flickr.com/photos/bolsh/4162961890/in/photostream/lightbox/ Jan 03 17:07:47 GAN900: nope Jan 03 17:07:53 GAN900: not at least as I experienced it Jan 03 17:08:04 Bizarre Jan 03 17:08:21 GAN900: good bugzilla queries are an art Jan 03 17:08:28 Stskeeps++ Jan 03 17:08:41 Stskeeps, indeed they are. Jan 03 17:08:42 GAN900: I go to "my bugs" everytime I want to see my feature requests Jan 03 17:08:58 Just saw Rudolf's roadmap email. Jan 03 17:09:00 GAN900: bugzilla used to not want to speak with me when I just started with it Jan 03 17:09:14 * sivang wish he had time to follow roadmap mail Jan 03 17:09:18 is anyone here familiar with libbmeipc ? specifically trying to find the git tree for it ... not seeing it on meego.gitorious.com .. thanks Jan 03 17:09:25 You have to know how to pet it just right. Jan 03 17:09:41 GAN900: seems like it. Jan 03 17:09:58 tgall_foo: i don't think there's one Jan 03 17:10:14 dneary: Jan 03 17:10:16 dneary: Jan 03 17:10:34 hmm I'm trying to build qmsystem and it's a dep for it ... any idea where to find the source for it ? Jan 03 17:10:38 sivang: Jan 03 17:10:41 sivang: Jan 03 17:10:42 dneary: sorry :) Jan 03 17:10:45 dneary: stupid kbd Jan 03 17:10:53 sivang: No problem :) Jan 03 17:10:56 dneary: where was that photo taken out of your flicker photostream? :) Jan 03 17:11:00 dneary: SF? Jan 03 17:11:13 sivang, Which one? Jan 03 17:11:28 dneary: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bolsh/4162961890/in/photostream/lightbox/ Jan 03 17:11:54 sivang, Barcelona weekend Jan 03 17:12:02 dneary: ah, Maemo? Jan 03 17:12:10 sivang, GAN900 could have told you that :) Jan 03 17:12:45 dneary: the date says yes Jan 03 17:13:01 * sivang goes back to pet asterisk Jan 03 17:13:05 I love peeling mandarines like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bolsh/4166366279/in/photostream/#/photos/bolsh/4166366279/in/photostream/lightbox/ Jan 03 17:13:22 dneary: yes I was wondering about that one Jan 03 17:13:34 tgall_foo: for meego? Jan 03 17:13:52 * sivang listens to tube's Gilmore mix and feels like being in the UK and not just passing through heathrow Jan 03 17:13:57 Stskeeps, yeah Jan 03 17:14:44 tgall_foo: talk to marquiz - you shouldn't use libbmeipc in the platform, it's hardware specific Jan 03 17:15:27 Stskeeps, ok thanks ! Jan 03 17:16:51 lo DawnFoster, welcome back from vacation! Jan 03 17:17:26 hey Stskeeps! Thanks! Jan 03 17:17:34 hey DawnFoster Jan 03 17:17:38 Stskeeps: was just about to ping you for IRC metrics :) Jan 03 17:17:39 DawnFoster: how was it? Jan 03 17:18:15 DawnFoster: will put it on my list to do then Jan 03 17:18:15 hey sivang. it was lovely. I had about 10 days off & turned my Intel email off entirely :) Jan 03 17:18:25 Stskeeps: no hurry - i'm buried with other stuff Jan 03 17:19:31 DawnFoster: hehe, exchange? Jan 03 17:29:00 * thiago realises we've got another year with US weeks off by 1 to the rest of the world Jan 03 17:38:21 who do i bribe to set up a team account on the build service? Jan 03 17:38:54 right now we're all using my personal repository. it would be nice to have one several people could contribute to Jan 03 17:55:43 is meego destined to be mostly on x86 based devices Jan 03 17:56:38 arm platforms are getting a strong attention too .... Jan 03 17:57:53 * thiago guesses more ARM devices in the beginning Jan 03 17:57:59 but of course that's not Intel's strategy :-) Jan 03 17:59:51 mortenmj: I think you need to bribe lbt :) Jan 03 18:00:12 DawnFoster: does he accept bribes in the form of cake? Jan 03 18:00:29 mortenmj: ha! you can try Jan 03 18:01:04 DawnFoster: did you have a good christmas? Jan 03 18:03:01 mortenmj: I had a great christmas - I took about 10 days off, ignored work email and hung out with family in Ohio Jan 03 18:04:33 DawnFoster: sounds awesome. are we talking out in the sticks ohio? Jan 03 18:05:21 mortenmj: way out in the sticks on a farm. 70 miles from the nearest airport and 15-20 miles from the nearest grocery store :) Jan 03 18:05:46 that sounds great Jan 03 18:05:47 mortenmj: how was your holiday? Jan 03 18:05:51 hey, that sounds familiar :) Jan 03 18:06:04 my cousin owns the family farm. i like to hang out there for a week or so during summer, working Jan 03 18:06:48 DawnFoster: my christmas was really great. got to meet family i haven't seen in a while, and went to a couple of good parties Jan 03 18:07:11 mortenmj: sounds like fun! Jan 03 18:10:08 DawnFoster: it was the bob-omb Jan 03 18:11:44 mwichmann: where in the sticks did you spend your holiday? :) Jan 03 18:11:52 pfft...being out in the sticks is hardly 'fun'. Better than being in a city that lacks a subway system, though ;) Jan 03 18:12:03 here at home: which fits that description you listed :) Jan 03 18:12:40 (it's not a farm, but otherwise... Jan 03 18:13:25 Dawnfoster, do you know how I can get one of those 4 pandaboards from TI? Jan 03 18:13:36 it's a bit of a shock to my system to go from being a block to the nearest bus stop, 2 blocks to the nearest restaurant / bar & 3 blocks to the nearest grocery store :) Jan 03 18:14:08 speaking of pandaboards, i need to remind TI of the ones they promised me they'd give my university... Jan 03 18:14:30 vgrade: hmmm, not sure - check with Jayabharath Goluguri Jan 03 18:15:02 is he the TI guy> Jan 03 18:15:11 * Stskeeps thinks so Jan 03 18:15:42 yes jay is one of the TI guys Jan 03 18:15:43 I thought there was going to be some sort of community procedure for dishing these things out Jan 03 18:15:49 I got my panda from him too Jan 03 18:16:26 that was through PEAP-phase1 though Jan 03 18:17:31 http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program Jan 03 18:44:19 Anyone tried booting the n900 image on droid/2/X hardware? Jan 03 18:47:28 ppl, I wanna install the meego-sdk package inside a debian box, but I don't know if it's going to be installed in an isolated path or not. Is it installing files only in the /opt dir or also in the /usr, /etc, etc.? Jan 03 18:49:01 list the package contents before you install them Jan 03 18:49:09 btw, why do you care? Jan 03 18:49:41 thiago, I have other sdks here, so I don't wanna overwrite them Jan 03 18:50:14 can't happen with packages Jan 03 18:50:22 packages check that they don't overwrite other packages' files Jan 03 18:51:18 thiago, that's the point, the files were not installed by a package. Anyway, I'll give it a lucky shot :) Jan 03 18:55:27 mortenmj: hi! let me chat directly with you on the detail of the board that you mention was promised to you... need to know who/when where etc so that I can chase it up for you Jan 03 18:56:19 abner: try listing the contents of the package before installation Jan 03 18:56:40 thiago, too late! lets hope it works :) Jan 03 19:38:57 Will Meego feature a standard-linux-stack compatible envirement for software ? Jan 03 19:39:16 you need to elaborate a little more :) Jan 03 19:39:31 right-clicking, hovering, keyboard input Jan 03 19:39:40 From what I've seen, meego is a lot more linux-like than android Jan 03 19:39:55 Qantourisc: on what vertical? handset, netbook, what? Jan 03 19:40:05 Unless I'm mistaken, they even chose rpm as the packaging format (so no .apk silliness) Jan 03 19:40:15 nightwalk: android is java on top of linux, it's like running emacs and putting all your software in there :) Jan 03 19:40:45 Qantourisc: not entirely. All of the system-level stuff is still C ;) Jan 03 19:40:46 Stskeeps: handset Jan 03 19:40:52 nightwalk: :) Jan 03 19:41:10 Qantourisc: keyboard input is a given, hovering is more of an app feature, right clicking is tap-to-hold Jan 03 19:41:45 Stskeeps: how is hover a app feature ? Jan 03 19:41:57 (we might have a symatical error here) Jan 03 19:42:04 Qantourisc: probably, what do you mean by it? Jan 03 19:42:08 Google's java can't really be called 'java', either. Think most people incorrectly call it 'davlik' for lack of a more succinct designation Jan 03 19:42:10 hover "mouse move to position A without clikcing" Jan 03 19:42:38 Qantourisc: a cursor on a touch ui is bad :) Jan 03 19:43:08 if you happen to run uncoverted applications ... one might desire it from time to time Jan 03 19:43:25 The core & netbook mixes are probably the most like a linux distro, I'd imagine Jan 03 19:43:27 Stskeeps: so what is hover for you then ? Jan 03 19:44:15 The handset mix is necessarily going to deviate significantly from the standard desktop due to the form factor and differences in available inputs/hardware/etc Jan 03 19:56:43 i saw article that say nokia is implementin 99% main-sream x server and it is more like maemo than meego. Is it right? Can i get mobile phone with real linux like n900 but better hardware? Jan 03 19:57:54 yes, you'll be able to get it Jan 03 19:58:17 meego is a normal Linux distribution, but with a specific purpose Jan 03 19:58:28 the X server doesn't actually impact very much - it's just part of the display driver - close to upstream means they're doing open source well Jan 03 19:58:41 nightwalk: you are correct, yes Jan 03 20:01:42 mortenmj: hey.... Jan 03 20:02:14 hey lbt Jan 03 20:02:21 where's my cake? Jan 03 20:02:43 Robot101: If intel is going to wayland and nokia is for X then. They both have same kernel, low level gnu components And Qt? Jan 03 20:02:56 who said nokia is going to stick to X? Jan 03 20:03:09 meego is currently using X Jan 03 20:03:28 what the heck is wayland? Jan 03 20:03:32 lbt: team account first, cake later Jan 03 20:03:39 Venemo: the future! Jan 03 20:03:48 mortenmj: why is that? Jan 03 20:03:56 because X is an ancient, lumbering beast Jan 03 20:03:57 Venemo: a replacement display protocol for compositors Jan 03 20:03:58 thiago: i think it in phoronix that said it. Jan 03 20:04:12 so who cares about wayland if we already have X? Jan 03 20:04:19 why reinvent the wheel? Jan 03 20:04:40 Venemo: because the one we have is crooked and prone to falling off while at speed Jan 03 20:04:40 Venemo: it was related to seammless boot. Jan 03 20:04:47 Venemo: because X has been bodged too far away from its original design goals/principles to be efficient or maintainable Jan 03 20:04:59 great Jan 03 20:05:02 Venemo: so basically, efficiency, simplicity - the wayland website explains it very well with diagrams Jan 03 20:05:15 mortenmj: I am planning on doing some work on the whole policy around surrounds/team areas Jan 03 20:05:15 wayland is actually using most of the "wheels" that were added for X in the past 5 years Jan 03 20:05:26 Robot101: link pls Jan 03 20:05:38 http://wayland.freedesktop.org/ Jan 03 20:05:45 mortenmj: if you'd like to propose a policy then that'd be useful Jan 03 20:05:54 kernel mode setting, DRI2 memory management, EGLX Jan 03 20:05:56 Venemo: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wayland Jan 03 20:06:04 Robot101: what are wheels ? Jan 03 20:06:07 lbt: not sure if i know what it would require Jan 03 20:06:13 thx mortenmj Jan 03 20:06:19 Robot101: ... Jan 03 20:06:20 zariz: they're wrong Jan 03 20:06:26 Qantourisc: extending the metaphor - like, "reinventing the wheel" Jan 03 20:06:27 mortenmj: no, me neither off hand Jan 03 20:06:34 zariz: don't believe phoronix Jan 03 20:06:45 zariz: at the moment MeeGo (Intel and Nokia) uses X. if MeeGo changes to Wayland, both Intel and Nokia will be using Wayland. Jan 03 20:07:04 zariz: so there's no difference at the moment, and really, it won't have a very big impact on anything Jan 03 20:07:18 Qt on X is already working using client side windowless rendering Jan 03 20:07:30 Qt also runs on the current Wayland servers Jan 03 20:07:33 all that changing to Wayland will do is simplify the compositor / window manager architecture and performance Jan 03 20:07:36 lbt: cake and grief counselling will be available at the conclusion of your work Jan 03 20:07:48 mortenmj: I've not really thought it through but maybe you could find a wiki page to propose/describe your OBS group? Jan 03 20:07:50 heh Jan 03 20:08:36 lbt: dude, what. i just need to set up a project on the OBS, be able to add users to it, give them various levels of access, set permissions for the various packages in our project Jan 03 20:08:37 So Qt is there to stay. All i want is mobile computer Jan 03 20:08:47 i.e. phil and ted can update foo, but not bar Jan 03 20:08:53 with linux Jan 03 20:09:18 lbt: oh, and setting other people as team admins besides myself, so they can add new maintainers Jan 03 20:09:24 zariz: the N900 is a mobile computer with linux. any successor products will also be. Jan 03 20:09:44 might be Jan 03 20:09:50 we don't know anything about Nokia's plans for the future Jan 03 20:10:10 so all the announcements that there will be a meego device in 2011 don't mean anything? Jan 03 20:10:33 thiago: what? meego is a linux distro. what Robot101 said is perfectly valid Jan 03 20:10:42 they might not, all depends on what nokia does internally Jan 03 20:10:56 mortenmj: you can do that in your home area Jan 03 20:10:57 you know you can create subprojects ? Jan 03 20:11:05 yes Jan 03 20:11:06 mortenmj: meego requires X today Jan 03 20:11:10 (laggy ... sry) Jan 03 20:11:14 thiago: and? Jan 03 20:11:16 mortenmj: when meego requires wayland, everyone using meego will use wayland Jan 03 20:11:28 be that intel, nokia, amino or anyone else. Jan 03 20:11:41 this is true of any linux distro that will one day move to wayland, but okay Jan 03 20:12:01 but unlike a generic distro, meego will not give you the option Jan 03 20:12:08 once meego switches, X is gone Jan 03 20:12:10 Robot101: i thought so before i read those (false) articles. Jan 03 20:12:19 well, the X server. The X libraries may stick around for a while. Jan 03 20:12:58 i don't think you've read the wayland website, bbut okay Jan 03 20:13:20 is there anything there that contradicts what I said? Jan 03 20:13:23 i still don't see what you're getting at. what is the issue here? Jan 03 20:13:36 i don't know either Jan 03 20:13:38 yes. phasing out X will happen gradually. nothing will break over night Jan 03 20:13:45 mortenmj: I don't actually know what you're getting at either tbh Jan 03 20:13:59 Robot101: i have no idea either Jan 03 20:14:03 zariz seemed to think that nokia would stick with X while the rest of meego moved to wayland Jan 03 20:14:08 he sucked me into some sort of entirely meaningless exchange Jan 03 20:14:10 mortenmj: well, you can only run one server. Jan 03 20:14:13 the Nokia CEO said on their Q3 earnings call that their meego device will be a 2011 device Jan 03 20:14:15 now days it is going crazy what nokia does at least in finland. when it is going to be win mobile or what ever. Jan 03 20:14:17 er, 2011 event Jan 03 20:14:17 mortenmj: so you either run X or you run wayland Jan 03 20:14:27 mortenmj: not counting emulation layers Jan 03 20:14:29 this seems to be a fairly strong indication that there's likely to be a meego nokia device in 2011 Jan 03 20:15:02 thiago: to be excruciatingly pedantically correct, running X on wayland isn't an emulation layer, it will be the actual X server, just with a different rendering target - like Xephyr is also the real X server Jan 03 20:15:37 Robot101: fair enough Jan 03 20:15:41 so if i run X11 apps in wayland, they'll be trapped inside a separate window like as if i ran them in xephyr? Jan 03 20:15:51 ali1234: no, it can be made rootless Jan 03 20:15:52 because that sounds like it would really suck Jan 03 20:16:06 like the X server on OS X or Win32 Jan 03 20:16:11 makes new top-level windows for each X client Jan 03 20:16:20 the X server on OS X is completely awful, i was about to mention that Jan 03 20:16:35 X11 apps under OS X are like second class citizens, the experience of using them is horrible Jan 03 20:16:41 well given its mostly X developers hacking on Wayland, I guess they'll sort it out Jan 03 20:17:01 but, Qt, Gtk and Clutter are all ported or being ported to run natively on Wayland Jan 03 20:17:05 but expect that, after a while, X-on-Wayland experience will drop Jan 03 20:17:22 but on MeeGo once Qt is ported, boom - everything will just work and X can be deleted from MeeGo Jan 03 20:17:56 on the linux desktop only emacs or something will need X, everything else will be covered when the main widget sets are ported Jan 03 20:18:18 and, well, if you like to live in the 80s you can use slackware and stick with the X server :) Jan 03 20:18:39 http://fuckyeahx11.tumblr.com/ :D Jan 03 20:18:58 is there any info about kde is merged to qt. can't remember where i read about that. but many qt linux apps needs kde libs Jan 03 20:19:29 zariz: that's because they are kde apps, that's why they use kde libs Jan 03 20:19:30 qt is to kde as gtk is to gnome Jan 03 20:19:44 zariz: kdelibs won't get merged. However, there's some effort to bring in functionality provided by those libs. Jan 03 20:20:09 again, stop believing everything you read in phoronix Jan 03 20:20:13 that was another really bad article Jan 03 20:20:22 lol phoronix Jan 03 20:21:04 personally i liked their "gallium now supports directx! native games on linux next week!" article Jan 03 20:22:28 thiago: better new sites? phoronix joke after steam client articles but i thought i ask guys who know better Jan 03 20:23:10 well, the right thing to do is come here and get your info from the source Jan 03 20:23:19 which is what you're doing Jan 03 20:23:47 the trick is to read the articles on phoronix and then do your own research to get the real story, so yeah... Jan 03 20:30:56 But Linux is from 91, Robot101, so slackware cant be 80s.. Jan 03 20:30:57 :-) Jan 03 20:31:24 Zuhaitz: details!!!111! Jan 03 20:31:24 Zuhaitz: ok, BSD...? :P Jan 03 20:31:56 hehe Jan 03 20:32:24 maybe patrick had a time machine Jan 03 20:47:17 so using Emacs is associated with (living in the 80s and) using Slackware? Jan 03 20:47:44 yes Jan 03 20:47:56 * lbt goes back to his slackware box Jan 03 20:49:33 Gentoo4Lyfe Jan 03 20:49:53 lbt: in prjconf, how would i evaluate something based on what repo it is? like standard vs postchecks for instance Jan 03 20:50:25 %if %{something} == "standard" kinda thing Jan 03 20:50:53 Stskeeps: yes... the opensuse ones have some good examples Jan 03 20:51:03 ok Jan 03 20:51:06 we should define some of those in MeeGo Jan 03 20:52:14 %if "%_repository" for future ref Jan 03 21:29:59 hi again Jan 03 21:30:04 mortenmj: I looked at the wayland page Jan 03 21:30:25 mortenmj: so if I understand correctly, in wayland the server and the compositor are merged together? Jan 03 21:31:40 Zonker's hot-off-the-presses critique of MeeGo: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7929/ Jan 03 21:31:57 Alison_Chaiken: yeah, was discusssed a little bit earlier.. Jan 03 21:33:35 Sorry to have missed, Stskeeps. I need to cut out that sleeping stuff and get with the program! Jan 03 21:33:46 sleeping is overrated, indeed ;) Jan 03 21:34:45 but my point back then was that it fails to really analyze what was going on and doesn't really stick to looking at the facts and analysing those, just feels more like an angry post instead :P Jan 03 21:37:25 * dm8tbr tosses Alison_Chaiken a can of pitr-cola Jan 03 21:37:49 .oO(sleep, for the weak she is) Jan 03 21:41:11 Thanks dm8tbr (slurp). Stskeeps, while the article is negative in tone, I think the points it makes are sound. The Smeegol trademark affair was ugly in my not-speaking-for-employer opinion. MeeGo has not had a smooth path, but we can do better. Speaking of which . . . Jan 03 21:42:34 which reminds me to register the domain for what I think would be a nice community meego Jan 03 21:43:07 smeegol affair was ugly (but similar policy to many other distros) but trademark confusion was real and had to be dealt with or losing the ability to enforce the trademark in future :/ in terms of package naming and sub-projects, we need to do better and activities related to this exist Jan 03 21:43:48 btw when is the next community thing so we can bring up the hw adaptations? Jan 03 21:44:18 14th or something? was on meego-community today i think Jan 03 21:45:03 dm8tbr: ah, 18th Jan 03 21:45:07 * dm8tbr doesn't have time for reading MLs right now. I'm now in charge of a project and need to still learn some ropes... :/ Jan 03 21:45:13 thanks Jan 03 21:45:18 * dm8tbr puts that on his calendar Jan 03 21:45:31 have a time + timezone too? Jan 03 21:46:09 http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Meetings/Brainstorm_Jan_18_2011_Website_Improvements Jan 03 21:46:48 thanks Jan 03 21:47:54 dm8tbr: if you were to sum up your main points about community adaptations, what would they be? Jan 03 21:51:22 reason i'm asking is because i'm pondering a talk in this area and doing an active effort in it, so i'd like to get my brain chewing on the topic :P Jan 03 21:51:37 Stskeeps: allow us to do our thing under the MeeGo roof, help us by providing resources we don't have as we're not corporations. Jan 03 21:51:44 that's it in two sentences Jan 03 21:52:04 in very broad and kind terms Jan 03 21:52:22 see I tried to word it positive Jan 03 21:52:33 dm8tbr: ok, that should do the trick - ta Jan 03 21:53:49 dm8tbr: next question is if you'd help organise this under community office if we find a good solution :) Jan 03 21:54:03 Stskeeps: and if it proves necessary I have a nice name that isn't too close to MeeGo and could serve as an community-umbrella. Jan 03 21:54:14 Stskeeps: I thought I was already doing so? ;) Jan 03 21:54:20 dm8tbr: excellent Jan 03 21:55:25 dm8tbr: i'm personally pondering how we can provide a nice environment and path for hardware adaptations from baby to adult Jan 03 21:55:35 Stskeeps: as long as I'm allowed to drop in that I work for tieto every now and then I might even be able to convince my employer to give me some time/help. Jan 03 21:55:36 this method would apply for any distro, no matter if it's company or not Jan 03 21:56:03 adult being part of meego release process, naturally :P Jan 03 21:56:09 *nod* Jan 03 21:56:11 and distro being hw adaptaton Jan 03 21:56:18 cos this path is bumpy like hell atm Jan 03 21:56:26 although we should keep in mind that not all will want to grow up Jan 03 21:56:29 (and i'm sure even companies can agree on that) Jan 03 21:59:27 'meego hardware adaptations from cradle to grave'? ;) Jan 03 22:02:38 although I do see that the process is simillar I think it will be important to show a clear path for both professional adaptations and community adaptations Jan 03 22:03:18 adaptions? you mean hitting it with a hammer? Jan 03 22:03:46 dm8tbr: so, some things back to you to think about: a hardware adaptation is basically about succesfully implementing a number of adaptation interfaces, testing your resulting image and following up on platform progress and having one or more people responsible for implementing and fixing incoming bugs Jan 03 22:05:05 within that, you usually need a obs project for the adaptation and a repository, as well as automatically built images tracking release process Jan 03 22:05:38 automatic testing ability of course helps ;) Jan 03 22:05:45 first you need to get your device to boot things, then you need EGL... Jan 03 22:05:56 yeah, it's an iterative process Jan 03 22:06:01 it's the small things that stop community adaptations Jan 03 22:06:51 'implementing a number of adaptation interfaces' is to me managerese for 'somewhen if the adaptation ever gets far enough' Jan 03 22:08:22 well, even new products start out at 0% Jan 03 22:09:30 and sure, if MeeGo offers to pay for setting up and maintaining OTS for community adaptations Jan 03 22:10:28 Stskeeps: actually usable kernel sources would help too Jan 03 22:11:01 i kinda hope we see easily installable test runners, it's needed a lot in software devel Jan 03 22:11:16 and porting Jan 03 22:15:59 Stskeeps: btw if you are wiki admin, this page could use renaming ;) http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS_Testing/BOSS_Tesing_OTS Jan 03 22:16:12 i'm not Jan 03 22:16:26 I was about to jump on you if you were Jan 03 22:18:08 bbl sleep Jan 03 22:19:49 bye Stskeeps, hello DawnFoster Jan 03 22:24:43 hey CosmoHill Jan 03 22:25:38 DawnFoster: hi Dawn, coming to Portland again. But I can't bring Norwegian chocolate this time... Jan 03 22:26:04 thiago: ha! would still be good to see you :) Jan 03 22:26:20 thiago: do you know when you'll be here? Jan 03 22:30:33 DawnFoster: arrive on Jan 12 Jan 03 22:30:35 leave on 14 Jan 03 22:31:10 thiago: we have Portland werewolf games on the 12th :) Jan 03 22:31:15 cool Jan 03 22:31:16 if you are interested Jan 03 22:31:19 but I probably arrive too late Jan 03 22:31:57 thiago: will you be at intel on the 13th & 14th? Jan 03 22:32:01 yes Jan 03 22:32:21 cool. Jan 03 22:33:53 * thiago is making a round-about way to get home to Oslo Jan 03 22:33:59 <--- in Brazil right now Jan 03 22:35:15 going to Portland via Las Vegas and San Francisco Jan 03 22:41:07 * CosmoHill gets the duct tape Jan 03 22:42:15 thiago: sounds like quite a trip! Jan 03 22:42:32 with a stop in Miami on the way over and Munich on the way to Oslo Jan 03 22:43:22 I was once told I should go to the university of Munich Jan 03 23:09:38 CosmoHill: quick question about that FAQ page you created in the wiki Jan 03 23:09:52 yes Jan 03 23:10:04 I actually have a main FAQ here: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_FAQ Jan 03 23:10:38 I had noticed that after I created my FAQ Jan 03 23:10:55 we need to merge the content onto the main page somehow Jan 03 23:11:28 i think mine has a narrower focus on the distro itself rather than the project as a whole Jan 03 23:11:42 Ah ok, so we need to rename it Jan 03 23:13:57 that would make sense Jan 03 23:16:04 DawnFoster: would you mind if we sorted this out another day? I'm pretty tired at the moment Jan 03 23:16:14 I moved it here for now Jan 03 23:16:15 http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Distribution_Frequently_Asked_Questions Jan 03 23:16:24 we can make more changes later Jan 03 23:16:28 when you're awake :) Jan 03 23:16:55 and to think that yeesterday it was only 3 characters Jan 03 23:17:26 it's great stuff! Jan 03 23:17:29 thanks for doing it! Jan 03 23:17:35 you're welcome :) Jan 03 23:17:49 I'll add a section about HTC phones later Jan 03 23:18:06 the orginal one was meant to be a bit of a joke with the answer to all questions being "no" Jan 03 23:18:14 ha! Jan 03 23:18:25 funny how things spiral out of control that way :) Jan 03 23:18:30 one of them would be "yes" followed by "Really? No" Jan 03 23:19:20 maybe after my exam I'll look over them and see if I can improve my answers / english Jan 03 23:21:55 good luck on your exam Jan 03 23:22:17 merci Jan 03 23:23:51 I think if I spell most of the words phonetically I'll be alright Jan 03 23:26:46 list Jan 03 23:27:00 go away, this isn't an anime channel Jan 04 00:06:39 ping lbt_away Jan 04 00:44:20 cyas Jan 04 00:57:12 When will I be able to buy a meego phone? One of those Atom phones I've been hearing about? Jan 04 00:57:36 The Aava didn't have a "buy now" link anywere, as far as I had seen Jan 04 00:57:38 who knows Jan 04 00:57:48 the aava is a devkit, and costs ~$2k USD Jan 04 00:57:53 Wow Jan 04 00:58:17 pretty astonishing price, isn't it? Jan 04 00:58:24 Indeed Jan 04 00:58:53 eh, the Zoom-II cost $1.2K, I'm sure the Blaze platform cost around that as well Jan 04 00:59:16 devkits are low volume runs with lots of extra stufff Jan 04 00:59:44 sure, all that is clear Jan 04 01:00:14 Will those Atom phones boot from microsd? Jan 04 01:00:20 I think that'd be pretty cool Jan 04 01:00:35 it depends on what you want with a devkit - if it's to entice developers for something high volume later, you price them cheap rather than price recovery Jan 04 01:00:58 aava is a somewhat different story, don't know the others mentioned Jan 04 01:01:05 sure, but that's if the vendor is releasing the devkit Jan 04 01:01:18 like say, TI and their subsidization of the Pandaboard Jan 04 01:02:06 I could have sworn I had read that meego was using libzypp; does this mean that meego will use "real" repositories to update itself, for example, like any other desktop linux distribution (in contrast with that Android abomination, for example) Jan 04 01:02:35 not sure what that means, answer sounds like yes Jan 04 01:02:38 that is the idea Jan 04 01:02:56 but.... who knows what happens when it's releases as a phone for example Jan 04 01:03:03 Sounds awesome. Jan 04 01:03:15 vendor may choose to do OTA update of whole blob, rather than pkgs from repo Jan 04 01:03:33 Sounds ugly Jan 04 01:03:44 handset vendors tend to be ugly Jan 04 01:03:49 carriers too Jan 04 01:04:48 any obs experts in the hizzouse? Jan 04 01:04:51 Why not have vendors/carriers create their own repositories? Jan 04 01:05:43 zjblabs: well, the goal would be for them to do that Jan 04 01:06:07 how willing to do so they would be is up in the air Jan 04 01:07:03 I ask all this because I have a SGS and absolutely hate it (and android in general) and I was hoping to get something much more sensible: meego sounds much more attractive Jan 04 01:08:12 would it be too terribly difficult run x86 applications create for desktop linuxes? Jan 04 01:08:54 Or, I suppose, how "crippled" is meego from what you'd expect in any other distribution? Jan 04 01:09:13 zjblabs: meego is not supposed to be crippled Jan 04 01:09:27 Sweet Jan 04 01:09:38 though by default the libraries for some applications will not be available outside the "surrounds" and "extras" repositories Jan 04 01:09:46 I did hear, though, that Java ME was being used, is this correct? Jan 04 01:10:06 and access to those will hinge upon how friendly your handset vendor/carrier are Jan 04 01:10:17 don't recall that, I don't believe Java is part of the MeeGo spec Jan 04 01:10:36 Wait, so I wouldn't be able to just add any repository I wanted? Jan 04 01:10:49 if the carrier/vendor says no, then you can't Jan 04 01:10:56 so buy carefully, is all I can say Jan 04 01:11:36 that sounds odd that I wouldn't be able to just zypper ar [repo] Jan 04 01:11:42 java isn't part of the meego.com picture, fwiw Jan 04 01:12:09 mwichmann: ok. Jan 04 01:12:09 the base app technology here is qt instead Jan 04 01:12:10 zjblabs: you can't do that on any distro if you don't have root and your homedir is mounted noexec... Jan 04 01:12:20 zjblabs: well, by default MeeGo can. Vendors/carriers may forcibly disable it though, like AT&T and the Android handsets. Jan 04 01:13:25 Would meego be as vulnerable to rooting techniques like those used on android phones? Jan 04 01:13:52 possibly, I haven't looked at the rooting techniques used on Android Jan 04 01:15:20 that said, vendors seem to be getting more agressive with the signature checking Jan 04 01:15:57 Heh, the AT&T SGS had none whatsoever; it was trivial to root it Jan 04 01:16:09 sure Jan 04 01:16:51 however, and I'm not sure how factual it is, there was a report on xda-developers that samsung was pushing out a Galaxy Tab update that updated the bootloader to check the kernel signature Jan 04 01:17:09 and while that doesn't prevent rooting, it cripples the device long term Jan 04 01:17:16 assuming they don't sign -more- Jan 04 01:17:49 I also don't agree with having to root a device ;) Jan 04 01:18:32 Indeed. Why does it make sense to purposly cripple phones like that? Jan 04 01:18:48 What makes them so much different than any other piece of hardware? Jan 04 01:19:10 nothing, really. Jan 04 01:19:28 they're connected to a network that is known to be very insecure Jan 04 01:19:43 ali1234: not at all Jan 04 01:20:02 I mean, you don't see anyone needing to root their linux netbook, do you? Jan 04 01:20:13 it's all about enforcing dependence, planned obsolencence, and routing you through their app stores Jan 04 01:20:15 really Jan 04 01:20:40 that too Jan 04 01:21:12 don't underestimate paranoia about phone call interception though Jan 04 01:21:24 and that's all in the GSM stack, not in the mobile OS Jan 04 01:21:31 gsm/cdma/whatever Jan 04 01:21:51 right, and what is stopping you from changing the GSM stack? usually only the operating system Jan 04 01:22:12 generally the GSM stack is signed from top to bottom Jan 04 01:22:55 at least that was my impression, I wonder if that's changed Jan 04 01:23:23 but if anything, they'd be more worried about unlocks than call interception Jan 04 01:23:40 some researchers recently demo'd interception of phone calls using just a cheap motorola phone with modded radio firmware Jan 04 01:23:46 since you can do that with a $15 phone these days Jan 04 01:24:01 But that still doesn't make sense: you don't seen windows computers being forced to go through an "app store" and users running with restricted priveledges right out of the box Jan 04 01:24:15 zjblabs: don't you? well, you will this year Jan 04 01:24:26 zjblabs: my impression is that if they could enforce that now, they absolutely would Jan 04 01:24:29 Really? Jan 04 01:24:40 well, the stores will come Jan 04 01:24:57 restricting software to those avenues will be a harder sell Jan 04 01:25:04 That's insane Jan 04 01:25:07 everyone and their granny has an app store now Jan 04 01:25:20 the stores are actually a decent idea Jan 04 01:25:20 now all they need to do is figure out how to force people to use them Jan 04 01:25:36 I have no problem with that kind of software delivery and sales Jan 04 01:25:51 but yeah, it's the -forced- aspect I don't like Jan 04 01:26:00 Indeed Jan 04 01:26:21 Or even computers/phones coming pre-loaded with the stores Jan 04 01:26:42 well, coming pre-loaded is ok too Jan 04 01:27:45 i've been saying for a while that PCs are on the way out... everyone wants tablets, phones, connected devices now Jan 04 01:28:15 they way "most" people use PCs... it is not worth having one Jan 04 01:28:24 too much maintenance is required Jan 04 01:28:58 oh yes. writing a book on a tablet is pure joy. or a sales presentation on a phone... Jan 04 01:29:17 does anyone know if/how its possible to access GPS on meego running on n900? Jan 04 01:29:21 most people only go on facebook, youtube, and amazon Jan 04 01:30:08 many many people write, and if its only short blog entries Jan 04 01:30:16 you can't do that on a phone Jan 04 01:30:25 wmarone: but would you think, for example, [insert-computer-manufacturer-here] would build computers with a boot order that doesn't include external devices, and an to lock changing boot order and then possibly do signature checking on the hard drive? Jan 04 01:30:39 berndhs: trillions of SMS messages says you;re wrong Jan 04 01:30:56 zjblabs: possibly, if it served their purposes Jan 04 01:30:58 not as trivial as SMS messages :) Jan 04 01:31:05 and yes, SMS messages are trivial Jan 04 01:31:14 zjblabs, aren't intel secure computing extensions designed to accomplish exactly that? Jan 04 01:31:27 oh, shit... Jan 04 01:31:33 and as for keyboards/monitors/projectors, docks with HDMI and built in bluetooth could take care of that Jan 04 01:31:50 zjblabs: IBM laptops can be configured to do that Jan 04 01:32:17 wmarone: now there is something, why do mobile computers need their own display ? use bigger stationary displays Jan 04 01:32:21 Yeah, I had an old IBM desktop that did that partially (but you were allowed to continue, if you wanted) Jan 04 01:33:00 berndhs: I think that's the goal for A9 devices, support for multiple displays of multiple sizes Jan 04 01:33:19 so I can use the small screen on the go, but put it in a dock for my big screen at home Jan 04 01:33:35 zjblabs: but the thing is that the target audience of PCs is different to the target for mobiles and tablets and such Jan 04 01:34:21 right, but the target audience for desktops is at least 1 billion people, and the audiences overlap Jan 04 01:34:38 in 2000 microsoft made loads of money by convincing the latter market that they wanted a PC, but it turns out they really didn't Jan 04 01:34:44 they actually wanted an iphone Jan 04 01:35:21 the end result was a mess of viruses and spam and botnets from people who didn't know how to look after a PC Jan 04 01:35:24 thats what the phone people say :) Jan 04 01:35:50 every student needs a computer, not a phone Jan 04 01:35:58 every office worked needs a computer at work Jan 04 01:36:13 because a computer is a tool Jan 04 01:36:28 Why can't a phone be one too? Jan 04 01:36:44 it can, but most people don't want it to be Jan 04 01:36:57 because you have to look after tools, or else you'll hurt yourself with them Jan 04 01:37:16 people will hur tthemselves jsut as much with phones Jan 04 01:37:37 the reality does not really support that conclusion Jan 04 01:37:40 if you use your phone as ID to get to your bank account, you're in trouble real easy Jan 04 01:38:05 smart phones haven't really started yet Jan 04 01:38:11 i never heard of anyone who lost their CC details to a keylogger on a phone Jan 04 01:38:31 you don't need key loggers on a phone, you steal the whole thing Jan 04 01:38:36 where as you basically expect it if you use some random windows machine Jan 04 01:38:37 much easier Jan 04 01:38:51 no point breaking into a phone, just take it Jan 04 01:38:59 oh you steal an iphone? and it's remote wiped before you can even fence it... Jan 04 01:39:24 no its not, the user doesn't know its stolen until hours later Jan 04 01:39:35 by that time the bad guys have your bank account Jan 04 01:39:39 hours is nowhere near long enough Jan 04 01:39:55 sure it is when professionals start doing this Jan 04 01:40:21 and when more clueless users ahve smart phones Jan 04 01:41:16 in any case you assume that there is some way to save the password for your bank account on the phone or something stupid like that Jan 04 01:41:22 it doesnt make sense to defend phones like desktops, or to assume they are safer Jan 04 01:41:27 or the user has a post-it stuck on their phone with the details Jan 04 01:41:45 yes i'm assuming that the industry is doing that already :) Jan 04 01:42:13 and i'm assuming that users are as smart with their phone passwords as with the rest of them :) Jan 04 01:42:42 it's still at least an order of magnitude harder for the crooks Jan 04 01:42:48 no its not Jan 04 01:43:09 they have to steal the phone without you noticing and somehow unlock it before you remote wipe it Jan 04 01:43:28 not every phone, just enough of them to make good money Jan 04 01:43:39 if it fails with 9 out of 10 phones, so what Jan 04 01:44:00 they're not after *your* bank account, just after enough to make a decent living Jan 04 01:44:21 well the problem is that you have to go and steal a phone for a 1/10 chance of getting a working CC Jan 04 01:44:32 why is that a problem ? Jan 04 01:44:34 vs keyloggers where you sit and do nothing all day and get hundreds of CCs Jan 04 01:44:37 anybody can tell me how to manage meego source code? use obs? or git? od these two have any contact? Jan 04 01:44:47 slightly different brand of criminals Jan 04 01:44:56 exactly, that's the point Jan 04 01:45:09 but the take is just as big Jan 04 01:45:22 the average phone thief is not going to be any more technically adept than the person they robbed Jan 04 01:45:25 you're presenting it as if phones are safer, and I'm saying they aren't Jan 04 01:45:50 they thief and the guy getting the money are not the same Jan 04 01:46:07 get a bunch of kids to take phones in shopping centers Jan 04 01:46:09 hlzxy: you need both git and obs, they do rather different things... although there is some overlap Jan 04 01:46:36 git for your source, obs for your packaging Jan 04 01:47:05 berndhs: the take will not be worth it, and you are exponentially more likely to get caught Jan 04 01:47:53 study math before using "exponentially" :) Jan 04 01:47:54 i'm not saying phones are bullet proof, just more secure than the average PC Jan 04 01:48:14 ali1234:souce code from git used to create package? Jan 04 01:48:31 i'm saying phones have different security holes, and people are ignoring them - this will bite them Jan 04 01:48:49 hlzxy: you have to make a release from git (as a tarball or something) and then put that into obs Jan 04 01:49:31 berndhs: the biggest security hole is always the user Jan 04 01:49:38 right Jan 04 01:49:50 PCs do absolutely nothing to prevent the user from doing stupid things Jan 04 01:50:02 ali1234:but some of them don't contain the spec file ,how can it put into obs? Jan 04 01:50:14 niehter do phones, people will just leave them, dont even have to steal the things Jan 04 01:50:22 hlzxy: you have to write a spec file for it Jan 04 01:50:57 but phones *do* prevent the user from doing a lot of dumb things... for example installing random executables from the internet Jan 04 01:51:23 right, the threat vector is differnt Jan 04 01:52:06 but assuming that because some types of threats are lessened, that the whole thing is safer, that's risky Jan 04 01:52:14 any vector that exists for a phone also exists for a PC, but the reverse is not true Jan 04 01:52:25 therefore a phone is more secure Jan 04 01:52:39 yes the reverse is true, it is much easier to walk away with a phoen than a PC Jan 04 01:52:46 unless the PC is a netbook Jan 04 01:53:00 oh sure, lets make the phone bigger :) Jan 04 01:53:31 no, it is important to consider the threats, not believe some marketing hype about safety Jan 04 01:53:39 Wait, what? You can't do analysis like that. And it's not even true. PC's don't often ship with automatic OTA firmware updates enabled, for example. Exploit that and you can hack any phone. Jan 04 01:54:00 windows update? Jan 04 01:54:18 i'm not trying to do complete coverage, just saying this has to be taken seriously Jan 04 01:54:22 it's like OTA, except over an untrusted network, and so much easier to exploit Jan 04 01:55:33 still damn near impossible though, unless you can break the crypto like they just did on PS3 Jan 04 01:55:56 right, that shows its almost impossible, that they just did it :) Jan 04 01:55:56 Semantics: The PS3 hack wasn't a crypto break, it was a reverse engineering effort of a bad protocol. Jan 04 01:56:20 an encryption protocol Jan 04 01:57:03 ali1234: it seems difficult Jan 04 01:57:41 a retarded protocol Jan 04 01:59:09 berndhs: how long did it take to crack the PS3? how often do people get a new phone? Jan 04 01:59:13 bug 10532 Jan 04 01:59:16 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10532 nor, High, ---, vivian.zhang, NEW, No audio input from microphone on meegoconf netbook Jan 04 01:59:49 ali1234: look, the point is that the network threat vectors aren't the only ones Jan 04 02:00:26 and if you get a new mass market of these devices, you will get new threats and new opportunities for crooks **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 04 02:59:58 2011