**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 24 02:59:57 2011 Feb 24 03:02:06 how do you make the forum show more than 4 posts at a time? Feb 24 04:21:23 evening;. Feb 24 05:26:44 bahahahaha http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12554499 Feb 24 05:32:42 still bitter about the nokia-wp7 deal? Feb 24 05:53:50 morning Feb 24 05:54:31 AgentBlair, I don't know who you're addressing, but I for one am not bitter. Companies do what they have to do, and employees make their own decisions in response. Feb 24 05:55:06 Hmm, I guess that's *whom* you're addressing. (Should study English grammar instead of suomi.) Feb 24 05:56:36 Alison_Chaiken, you are correct with the attitude, bitter just spoils so much, it's useless Feb 24 05:57:47 i was addressing nbm Feb 24 05:57:56 npm* Feb 24 06:01:06 morn Feb 24 06:01:12 iekku, the world abounds with opportunity. Look not to the disappointing past but to the bright and boundless future! I want giant OLED lighting panels to replace lamps! I want all walls everywhere to be displays! A watch will all the functionality of my cell phone! And natch, flying cars. Feb 24 06:01:53 Alison_Chaiken: 'a day made of glass' on youtube is where i hope to take meego Feb 24 06:02:46 Alison_Chaiken, :D Feb 24 06:03:08 Stskeeps, good morning Feb 24 06:03:13 morn iekku Feb 24 06:04:36 it feels sooooooooo good to be at work Feb 24 06:05:05 i'm just happy to be checking out of my hotel room. looking forward to be home at my sofa :P Feb 24 06:05:51 Stskeeps, sofa is nice place :) and waits you when you'r not at home :P Feb 24 06:06:18 hehe Feb 24 06:06:55 you don't need to feed sofa, or take it out etc Feb 24 06:06:59 nice pet Feb 24 06:09:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cf7IL_eZ38 I wonder if the popcorn, apple and people were all made of glass too. But seriously, Stskeeps, I've seen a dozen of those "10 years into the future" videos and that's the best one so far. Feb 24 06:12:39 Alison_Chaiken: yeah, last one that topped my list was a MS one.. Feb 24 06:12:59 Alison_Chaiken: transparent amoled exists already, samsung had some demos Feb 24 06:13:16 I'm surprised they didn't to LCD fabric in that, too. Feb 24 06:13:23 didn't do Feb 24 06:14:10 Overhead OLED lighting panels are inevitable. They have high enough BW to send data at MHz rates. ECMA already has a lighting comms standard. Feb 24 06:14:23 Ha, that's a pretty cool vide. The problem is that displays on horizontal table-tops and vertical walls are ergonomically bad. Feb 24 06:14:24 Stskeeps, wow, that's nice video Feb 24 06:17:50 now, how do we make it happen with meego? a open, free and easy to adapt to hardware solution is needed ;) Feb 24 06:30:10 ok, that is a really irritating n900 bug.. Feb 24 06:30:31 i see the window for alarm pop up, before sound starts, i hit cancel Feb 24 06:30:43 and it closed window, sound continues to play Feb 24 06:30:56 :P Feb 24 06:31:06 (ie, no way to stop alarm) Feb 24 06:38:54 getting spoiled by the touchscreen and the chrome-touch plugin ... i need to quit trying to scroll text on my regular display with my finger Feb 24 06:39:57 Stskeeps, uh Feb 24 08:06:21 hi guys :) Feb 24 08:06:40 newbie question here: does meego run on the Nokia 3G tablet? Feb 24 08:06:50 the Booklet? Feb 24 08:06:56 it can run, but why would you try? :-P Feb 24 08:07:34 ok. thanks Feb 24 08:13:52 Sicelo: Nokia Booklet 3G has Intel GMA500 graphics which is not supported by MeeGo (or anything for that matter) Feb 24 08:16:09 hmm, a (flaky?) 2D driver for GMA500 was just put up on LKML for merging Feb 24 08:17:09 just a minute, I'll hunt down the thread start Feb 24 08:18:07 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=129837844627413&w=2 Feb 24 08:23:55 Bostik: cool, I didn't notice that Feb 24 08:24:26 it needs quite a lot of love still before it can go in but at least there finally IS a stable-ish starting point for future work Feb 24 08:24:38 "you have 73327 unread messages at LKML" <-- mybe that has something to do with it XD Feb 24 08:25:27 nice discussion... interesting. i did read sometime ago about the GMA500 Feb 24 09:31:04 so err Feb 24 09:31:07 * timeless_w7ip puzzles Feb 24 09:31:14 can someone here help me understand srpms? Feb 24 09:31:20 i vaguely understand the .spec file Feb 24 09:31:25 but i'm wondering about .yaml files Feb 24 09:31:54 of 1434 packages, 670 seem to have yaml files Feb 24 09:32:06 Hey vgrade Feb 24 09:32:26 timeless_w7ip, yaml files create spec files using the spectacle tool Feb 24 09:32:45 arfoll: ok,... Feb 24 09:32:47 you don't need the yaml files (because OBS only understands specs), but it's usually nicer to write spec files Feb 24 09:33:07 to write yaml files I mean Feb 24 09:33:22 if i have a srpm and it has a spec and a yaml Feb 24 09:33:42 and i use rpmbuild -bp am i guaranteed to get the yaml in the BUILD/whatever dir? Feb 24 09:33:55 or is it possible/likely for the yaml to more or less get lost? Feb 24 09:33:58 no, rpmbuild doesn't know about yaml so it will ignore it Feb 24 09:34:08 so it'll be lost? joy Feb 24 09:34:22 Does anyone knows Qt app for maemo with translations/localization? Feb 24 09:34:28 I'm not too sure if it'll be lost, but rpmbuild wont know what to do with it Feb 24 09:34:38 sorry wrong window Feb 24 09:35:11 arfoll: so the goal here is to make mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/source/ the most useful resource it can be Feb 24 09:35:41 since a yaml file would indirectly contribute to the behavior of the package and since it was in the srpm to begin with, it really should be in the directory that's listed Feb 24 09:35:46 just as i'd like to include the spec file Feb 24 09:36:01 (the spec file is naturally lost also since it would land in SPECS/ on its own) Feb 24 09:36:47 yes, i agree, the yaml file would be nice as well as the spec (because yaml may not describe the spec fully - see spec macros) Feb 24 09:37:20 i'd guess the yaml file wouldn't be treated specially by rpmbuild so i'm not sure where it would put it Feb 24 09:37:24 why dont you try? Feb 24 09:38:10 well, i've tried it kinda Feb 24 09:38:31 and it seems to sometimes appear Feb 24 09:39:10 problem is, in BUILD/ you get the content of whatever is in the source: part of the spec no? Feb 24 09:39:17 and the yaml will not be there Feb 24 09:39:47 hrm, no, the yaml doesn't appear does it Feb 24 09:39:54 http://mxr.meego.com/meego.gitorious.org/source/libresource/ e.g. is missing the yaml file Feb 24 09:40:01 whereas there is a yaml file for it Feb 24 09:40:20 can you not treat the yaml file specially if it exists? (just like you have to treat the spec file specially) Feb 24 09:41:14 that's what i'm trying to understand Feb 24 09:41:31 oh oops, i'm looking in the wrong tree Feb 24 09:41:33 * timeless_w7ip sighs Feb 24 09:42:00 sorry, http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/source/ is the place we're talking about Feb 24 09:42:09 the other one is git based which isn't relevant Feb 24 09:42:39 (well, it is to the extent that i might want to teach mxr itself to parse yaml files to get directory descriptions the way it can for .spec files, but... that's a battle for another time) Feb 24 09:43:41 ok, so http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/source/kickstarter-0.4/ has a couple of yaml's Feb 24 09:43:53 but they aren't the yaml's we're talking about here Feb 24 09:44:05 timeless_w7ip, i see alot of the spec files are missing, see brassero Feb 24 09:44:33 yeah, the spec files aren't currently being magically added in that version Feb 24 09:44:42 there's another improved version of the script where they will be Feb 24 09:44:54 it's halfway between a run where it wasn't and a run where it would Feb 24 09:44:58 and what happens to patches? Are they simply applied being applied to the tarball or are they not shown either? Feb 24 09:45:08 simply applied Feb 24 09:45:20 the goal is to reference the result of rpmbuild -bp Feb 24 09:45:31 ok, btw i think the reason those yaml files are there is that they are in the .tarball Feb 24 09:45:45 which is roughly how someone looking at a crash stack would need them Feb 24 09:46:02 if you think the patches and other meta junk should be preserved/exposed in some other way Feb 24 09:46:05 i'm open to suggestions Feb 24 09:46:22 but note that i don't want to keep around the .tar.gz or whatevers Feb 24 09:46:28 no it seems like an ok way to deal with it Feb 24 09:46:32 ok Feb 24 09:46:38 i dont see how you are going to get away from treating the yaml specifically Feb 24 09:46:45 so consider http://mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com/source/tone-generator-1.5/ Feb 24 09:46:55 yeah, i'm fine w/ special casing the yaml's and spec files Feb 24 09:46:59 that's not too annoying Feb 24 09:47:05 consider tone geenrator though... Feb 24 09:47:10 it has a yaml Feb 24 09:47:12 yeah that one looks good Feb 24 09:47:14 and! its yaml is +x Feb 24 09:47:18 wtf is it +x? Feb 24 09:47:26 but maybe the yaml creeped in the tarball.... Feb 24 09:48:11 timeless_w7ip, yep spec + yaml are in that tarball Feb 24 09:48:24 bug should probably be filed Feb 24 09:48:30 can i get you to file it? Feb 24 09:48:38 timeless_w7ip, yes sure Feb 24 09:48:40 thanks Feb 24 09:48:52 clearly i can't cite chapter+verse on that yet.. Feb 24 09:49:26 timeless_w7ip, btw maybe you could spit out a list of packages with the yaml files inside so we can check if there are more ugly packages? Feb 24 09:49:55 normally you'd be able to use mxr's find Feb 24 09:50:03 but since there's no find index, lemme pastebin a list Feb 24 09:50:33 http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1094418 Feb 24 09:51:01 i presume that the repos/configurations yamls are acceptable Feb 24 09:51:13 yes i'd guess those are Feb 24 09:51:18 cheers for the pastie Feb 24 09:51:35 i guess it's because the yaml files are in the git repo so when the tarball is made it's left here Feb 24 09:51:40 s/here/there Feb 24 09:52:16 * timeless_w7ip nods Feb 24 09:52:59 if you can write a rule describing what files should not be found in the root of one of these directories, i can make my script evaluate it as it builds and spit out the list to a file which it adds to the tree Feb 24 09:53:17 (don't give me the rule now, i have enough headaches to deal w/) Feb 24 09:54:22 timeless_w7ip, hard to make a rule though as some yaml files should be there, I think it's best to try and get to them one by one. It's not particularly major either Feb 24 09:54:47 * timeless_w7ip nods Feb 24 09:55:18 it's a general offer though, not necessarily specific to yaml's Feb 24 09:55:48 since mxr will have to process all srpms that go into repo.meego.com, and will hopefully be a place people visit, Feb 24 09:56:14 uhm, it could be very useful, i'll keep it in mind :-) Feb 24 09:56:17 any general complaints about packages which could be calculated automatically could be generated Feb 24 09:56:36 * timeless_w7ip goes back to getting the yaml's into the list Feb 24 09:57:30 grr Feb 24 09:57:34 * timeless_w7ip kicks 'platform' Feb 24 09:58:27 * andre__ wonders what the "ip" stands for in timeless' nick Feb 24 09:58:32 ideapad Feb 24 09:58:35 from dublin :) Feb 24 09:59:00 ah :) Feb 24 09:59:26 which partially explains why this connection dies... the computer goes to sleep! Feb 24 09:59:30 * arfoll hopes the w7 isn't because timeless hasn't put meego on it ;-) Feb 24 09:59:42 arfoll: guilty :) Feb 24 10:00:16 w7 is kinda annoying, when i upgraded virtualbox to some version @work, my w7s started going to sleep too Feb 24 10:00:36 because vbox was like "yeah, i support sleeping", and windows was like "great, i'm tired, i'm going to sleep" Feb 24 10:00:55 * timeless_w7ip hasn't tried to find the checkbox to tell windows "please don't go to sleep" ... Feb 24 10:02:02 so, eventually the directories in repo.meego.com will look closer to: Feb 24 10:02:05 http://mxr.meego.com/stage-repo.meego.com/source/ Feb 24 10:02:13 * timeless_w7ip grumbles @ the first line of http://mxr.meego.com/stage-repo.meego.com/source/perl-HTML-Tree/ Feb 24 10:02:15 timeless_w7ip, when it sleeps in windows, does it also disable usb ports Feb 24 10:02:49 lcuk: hrm, you mean how would the n900 interact w/ this sleeping ip? Feb 24 10:03:03 definitely possible to investigate Feb 24 10:03:44 http://mxr.meego.com/stage-repo.meego.com/source/perl-HTML-Tree/META.yml Feb 24 10:03:50 is that a proto yaml? Feb 24 10:04:31 hrm, nope, seems to be yet-another-module-list Feb 24 10:04:33 its the most annoying part of laptop sleep cycles - because you cannot close lid and carry on charging n900 Feb 24 10:04:46 heh Feb 24 10:04:53 w/ this you can flip the lid :) Feb 24 10:05:28 * timeless_w7ip adds lookign for 'abstract' in 'yml' to the todo list Feb 24 10:05:54 ooh, or 'ABSTRACT' in Makefile.PL Feb 24 10:05:57 that might work better Feb 24 10:07:04 timeless_w7ip, you mean flip into slate mode? Feb 24 10:07:09 yeah Feb 24 10:07:16 if so - that causes havok when you slide it into bag Feb 24 10:07:17 Anyone using those IdeaPads with an Apple Airport Extreme wifi basestation ? Feb 24 10:07:40 lcuk: win-L first :) Feb 24 10:08:04 (works best if you have a password requirement) Feb 24 10:08:50 reasonable enough :) ta Feb 24 10:08:51 win-L = lock screen in NT5, in NT5.1+ it's fast user switching if you aren't in a domain or lock screen otherwise Feb 24 10:09:22 ctrlalt+l works too :) Feb 24 10:09:35 not here Feb 24 10:11:12 hi Feb 24 10:11:40 hi \o Feb 24 10:13:55 Actually, is there a switch in the ideapad that disables wifi Feb 24 10:14:00 Wondering if that's my problem Feb 24 10:14:48 Is valhalla leaving Nokia ? Feb 24 10:20:07 timeless_w7ip, done: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13826 Feb 24 10:20:10 Bug 13826 tri, Undecided, ---, peter.j.zhu, NEW, yaml files in some release tarballs. Should they be there? Feb 24 10:20:15 although i doubt anyone is going to care much Feb 24 10:22:39 * timeless_w7ip nods Feb 24 10:23:26 technically that isn't really a complete list, that's only a list of the packages for which my rpmbuild hadn't failed Feb 24 10:23:29 there are hrm Feb 24 10:24:01 say 1340 directories in that list, and 1436 or so srpms Feb 24 10:24:14 so there are roughly 100 packages for which i can't speak ... Feb 24 10:31:58 hrm Feb 24 10:32:05 * timeless_w7ip wonders how acls work on this system Feb 24 10:32:07 reset the bios to factory decaults works Feb 24 10:32:10 defaults Feb 24 10:35:21 timeless_w7ip, before we know what the overlords are willing to do about it it's fairly irrelevant if the list is incomplete Feb 24 10:36:51 grr Feb 24 10:37:05 * timeless_w7ip kicks debian Feb 24 10:37:10 "time" isn't included Feb 24 10:37:22 * timeless_w7ip has a patch for that on another computer Feb 24 10:37:53 Package: time Feb 24 10:37:53 Priority: standard Feb 24 10:38:00 not essential, though Feb 24 10:38:18 jumpula: yeah, i went through this about 2 weeks ago w/ someone else Feb 24 10:38:39 so it's already fixed on my primary staging computer, but it isn't fixed in my upstream where everyone gets sources Feb 24 10:39:01 633410-update-search-missing-time Feb 24 10:41:06 oh, actually, it's only partially fixed, i think Feb 24 10:41:15 * timeless_w7ip got distracted and probably never finished it Feb 24 10:42:32 grr Feb 24 10:45:30 jumpula: right, so from memory the really fun part about that was that 'which' wasn't from memory portable across unix's Feb 24 10:46:32 and about the worst command to try to google for is 'which' Feb 24 10:47:09 you're probably using the shell internal time instead of the real time command Feb 24 10:47:32 so running something like /usr/bin/time gets you the real time command which supports all the options in the man page etc Feb 24 10:47:45 well, the original version was a shell script and thus it got the internal time Feb 24 10:48:08 the current version is perl and thus it's at the mercy of the existence of /usr/bin/time Feb 24 10:48:15 which doesn't exist on debian unless you install time Feb 24 10:50:13 sounds reasonable, yes :) Feb 24 10:50:24 you can always run shell from perl and run time there Feb 24 10:50:45 but i'd reckon perl has some better (internal) way of doing this Feb 24 10:51:19 so, the question is,... can i safely rely on shells to provide all of the things that i need Feb 24 10:51:44 or should i look before i leap and gracefully handle missing things Feb 24 10:51:58 e.g. potentially 'uptime' could decide not to be presnet Feb 24 10:52:03 s/presnet/present/ Feb 24 10:52:03 timeless_w7ip meant: e.g. potentially 'uptime' could decide not to be present Feb 24 10:52:19 and 'date' Feb 24 10:53:18 timeless_w7ip, since you can resolve most of the missing pieces, it sounds more like a niggle Feb 24 10:53:22 and something to get used to Feb 24 10:53:31 'niggle'? Feb 24 10:54:59 car analogy, having niggles with the car might mean a squeeking noise or wipers broke, but the car still runs. Feb 24 10:55:13 * timeless_w7ip doesn't have a license let alone a car Feb 24 10:55:35 have you ever tried to learn? Feb 24 10:55:46 yes, i've had learners' permits Feb 24 10:55:53 just never bothered getting a license Feb 24 10:55:58 anyway Feb 24 10:56:12 right, the point is that i want my code to be able to work when these things are absent, it's just a matter of deciding how the code should work around the missing cog Feb 24 10:56:39 i'm not specifically complaining about the missing cog, just having trouble deciding the right way to handle it Feb 24 10:59:24 timeless_w7ip, are you actively packaging this collection of scripts up? Feb 24 10:59:59 ie, can you just add dependencies and let the operator (you or other) install the missing dependencies as required Feb 24 11:00:33 no Feb 24 11:00:43 i'm not going to waste years writing hundreds of packaging scripts Feb 24 11:00:58 and i'm not going to waste years supporting people who installed distro hacked versions of my code Feb 24 11:01:19 nor am i going to spend hundreds of hours calculating all of the possible ways to spell a package name Feb 24 11:01:31 packaging is not the answer. it's just twenty more problems i don't need Feb 24 11:01:41 [hint: don't go there] Feb 24 11:02:39 +1 Feb 24 11:03:21 anyway, jbos: i've finally gotten the update-search.pl version of that problem handled. Feb 24 11:03:33 i'll deal w/ porting/refactoring it later or perhaps sooner Feb 24 11:07:11 reasonable timeless_w7ip Feb 24 11:32:26 * timeless_w7ip goes w/ sooner and finishes it Feb 24 11:32:39 ok, so that problem's done. back to whereever i was before? Feb 24 11:33:17 for people vaguely wondering what mxr.meego.com will be able to do once it has working indices, http://mxr.meego.com/mxr/ demos find/search/ident Feb 24 11:34:17 Hi meego hackers Feb 24 11:34:26 * timeless_w7ip chuckles Feb 24 11:34:29 timeless_w7ip, you mention on the info page about web crawlers, are the pages correctly marked in robot file? Feb 24 11:34:39 to prevent some at least Feb 24 11:34:46 lcuk: please feel free to check Feb 24 11:34:54 Don't you think opensource platform blocks commercials opportunity profit? Feb 24 11:34:58 * timeless_w7ip wonders if comic chat is smart enough to map 'hi' to hand wave Feb 24 11:35:09 KevinB: no, go look at licensing policy at meego.com :) Feb 24 11:35:17 indeed timeless_w7ip :) Feb 24 11:35:18 because it s kinda easy for a hacker like you Feb 24 11:35:22 (it did that for kevinb's hi) Feb 24 11:36:03 hi, bon apétit Feb 24 11:36:14 merci :) Feb 24 11:36:38 http://cannedbypasi.blogspot.com/2011/02/meego-qt-alive-and-kicking.html Feb 24 11:36:53 I mean for hackers , a meego platform is like heaven of hacking Feb 24 11:37:13 anyway, it didnt stop ihpone app to be sold Feb 24 11:37:21 so I guess it would be the same for meego Feb 24 11:37:32 We just need to Democratise Meego Feb 24 11:37:39 democracy? dear god no Feb 24 11:37:44 Install it on every Desktop we will see Feb 24 11:37:55 omg, no Feb 24 11:38:22 kevinb: i think you need to look at world politics a bit right now Feb 24 11:38:26 a couple case studies: Feb 24 11:38:29 1. the middle east Feb 24 11:38:30 what's wrong with that Feb 24 11:38:44 where the masses are um... well, not particularly interested in any particular things but are happy to be killed Feb 24 11:38:50 2. the middle west Feb 24 11:39:11 (I mean by "Democratise" to make it popular") Feb 24 11:39:30 ... where um people for some reason seem to support asking for a smaller government so that they won't get the money they need to live Feb 24 11:39:50 i think you want another word Feb 24 11:41:36 Demos -> people , crate -> governing Feb 24 11:41:53 yes, i don't see 'popular' in that Feb 24 11:42:01 popular -> people Feb 24 11:42:12 anyway you get what I meant Feb 24 11:42:29 so, as everyone immediately panic'd when you made your suggestion Feb 24 11:42:32 ... Feb 24 11:42:58 the word you want is ... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/popularize Feb 24 11:43:25 but, it isn't a good idea to try to make something popular before it's ready Feb 24 11:43:33 i'm sure there are some good examples of how that fails Feb 24 11:43:46 ? Feb 24 11:44:01 ? Feb 24 11:44:35 mmm to make it popular, we need that people commit to its further devlopment - in other word everyone can suggest smth and if it s good we take it Feb 24 11:44:44 isnt it what open source is? A democracy Feb 24 11:44:51 we haven't had many major air disasters of late. sure there was a concord and some other french plane off SAm, and a couple of space shuttles... Feb 24 11:44:53 no, it's open source Feb 24 11:44:54 :P Feb 24 11:45:28 most things tend to work better w/ meritocracy than w/ democracy Feb 24 11:45:41 you might try reading Lord of the Flies Feb 24 11:46:00 what the hell are you talking about Feb 24 11:46:25 The most your work get result, the most what..? Feb 24 11:46:37 heck, one could claim that germany circa 1933 was a democracy Feb 24 11:46:53 but if people don't actually know enough (e.g. who torched the Reichstag) Feb 24 11:47:07 ok is it meego channel? Feb 24 11:47:24 then it's easy to vote for the wrong thing, leading to disastrous consequences Feb 24 11:48:34 there's also Iran circa 1979 Feb 24 11:48:40 anyway I m just a young noob, wondering if hee makes an app on meego and release it commercial and make 1 � per sell... Feb 24 11:48:55 KevinB: meego does not in any way stop commercial usage or commercial applications. Feb 24 11:49:07 or if release it open source will block the market on a side, because it s good app so no one would want to buy the other ones Feb 24 11:49:15 http://meego.com/about/licensing-policy Feb 24 11:49:32 i believe the general assumption is that eventually vendors will provide stores through which users can procure apps Feb 24 11:49:49 and since users like being able to ask for support, and part of selling is offering support Feb 24 11:50:02 users can choose to go for a commercial solution, just for support Feb 24 11:50:33 * niala1 read timeless_w7ip and KevinB and think there is misunderstand with "Democratise" word. I think a false traduction french/english Feb 24 11:50:34 i'll note that even people here have indicated to me at times that they want to pay for support and will do that buy e.g. buying a license for something which could be retrieved for free Feb 24 11:50:59 niala1: "translation" in en :), but thanks Feb 24 11:51:05 niala1 it is indeed thogh I dont think the english definition of democratize is far from "d�mocratiser" Feb 24 11:52:05 kevinb: even if the historical origins are close, the modern meanings are sufficiently distinct and the connotations significant such that interchanging them is problematic Feb 24 11:52:56 I'll ask an english oxford guy when I'll go to Oxford, one day Feb 24 11:53:20 oed is available online for free this year iirc Feb 24 11:54:03 I just think all basic app, couldnt go commercial Feb 24 11:54:09 of course, finding the stupid password is expensive Feb 24 11:54:46 maybe I over - emphasize, just feel weird if I'm user that there are 2 simple and god app (like transport app) Feb 24 11:55:04 s/god/good/ ? Feb 24 11:56:21 good app and that onee is free and the other is not... OR even open-source should not be free Feb 24 11:56:46 * timeless_w7ip sighs Feb 24 11:56:56 niala: can you get a better translation for us? Feb 24 11:56:57 ok it s not clear Feb 24 11:57:10 [libre is terribly confusing when converted to en] Feb 24 11:58:08 me démocratiser = populaire = popular = communal. but my english is very bad. Feb 24 11:58:08 kevinB say free/gpl to be more predise Feb 24 11:58:08 To sum up : I'm considering open-source app should not be free on meego Feb 24 11:58:13 precise Feb 24 11:58:38 or opensource yes Feb 24 11:59:30 if it s free, i m just afraid it may break competition between app Feb 24 11:59:33 or free = gratuit = gratuitous Feb 24 11:59:56 because open source is sometimes better than commercials Feb 24 12:00:12 so it 's 0� price.. Feb 24 12:00:23 just a thought Feb 24 12:00:38 niala: i don't suppose there's a #meego-fr? Feb 24 12:01:25 ah well i don't know i m here to train my english too :) Feb 24 12:01:56 niala: i'll gladly help you (e.g. 'translation'), but there's a limit to my ability to handle broken en Feb 24 12:02:34 i'm not asking you to leave, just wondering if you could possibly work through the other question in French somewhere else Feb 24 12:02:39 * KevinB is not in strict ENGLISh mode and is sorry for your brain compiler Feb 24 12:02:57 no pb i just reading and google translate. As you see i m not speaking a lot . :) Feb 24 12:04:26 KevinB: ask in french in pv if you want. Feb 24 12:05:07 If there s two app the serves the same purpose. One is open-source (means ususally not bad one and most of the time free(=0�)) Feb 24 12:05:57 I'm afraid it would brake competition and so people never buy the commercial one Feb 24 12:06:26 KevinB, if that were true (lower price always) then people would not buy Ferraris Feb 24 12:07:02 kevinb, fwiw, s/brake/break/ Feb 24 12:07:19 lcuk: do they come w/ brakes? Feb 24 12:07:39 grr, i missed lunch! Feb 24 12:08:30 KevinB: yes and instead of selling closed software you sell you and your brain, in free/gpl woe Feb 24 12:08:36 world Feb 24 12:08:42 timeless_w7ip, I overlooked the spelling. Go and grab lunch now! Feb 24 12:09:03 Whereas if open source app are sold at leeast for a symoblic euro, it would get things like more equal Feb 24 12:09:15 then even comm. app have more chance? Feb 24 12:09:25 Is my argument stupid? Feb 24 12:09:35 http://mxr.meego.com/meego.gitorious.org/source/kernel-source/obs_dont_care.txt <- funny file Feb 24 12:10:31 KevinB, is that the only potential way to do it? Feb 24 12:10:48 * lcuk2 has spent time considering how to do this for years Feb 24 12:11:05 just an idea Feb 24 12:11:28 to make meego an attractive platform Feb 24 12:11:30 KevinB, if you write a tiny HTML page or something on the wiki that ends up being used by everyone Feb 24 12:11:56 its not going to be questioned about open source or anything Feb 24 12:12:03 cos its just a silly page Feb 24 12:12:11 and the one 1� would go to an juridic entity that could use reuse it for opensource Feb 24 12:12:48 lcuk2, sorry I dont get extacly the meaning? Feb 24 12:13:05 well KevinB, you are talking specifically about apps Feb 24 12:13:41 but there are so many component pieces around that are not necessarily apps, but that people have been involved in and helped to fixup Feb 24 12:13:55 yes, because I keep thinking about, how Meego can be attractive to the (Profit developper) Feb 24 12:14:25 there is 'store' for that Feb 24 12:15:06 iphone-store like ... ovistore and intelstore (don't remember the exact name of intel store) Feb 24 12:15:12 * lcuk2 smiles when I noticesomeone fixed typos in the documentation (for instance) or wroteup a howto Feb 24 12:15:50 niala1, AppUp ? Feb 24 12:16:01 yep Feb 24 12:16:03 ty Feb 24 12:16:32 a store on closed-platform is more powerfull dont you think so? On open-source platform like Meego people would nt go though store when we ll understand how to get the apps for free Feb 24 12:16:56 I mean when the customers will know how to install app by themselves Feb 24 12:17:20 os apps quality is generally quite bad Feb 24 12:17:26 KevinB, I expect that most users of the OS would loath having to goto console to install stuff Feb 24 12:17:31 KevinB: and a gplworld is not nice? Feb 24 12:17:39 terrible ux and 'features' Feb 24 12:17:42 I cannot see my dad pecking through ancient runes Feb 24 12:17:58 well, perhaps actually, but thats not the point. Feb 24 12:18:24 KevinB, problem with charging for opensource is that who gets the money? Feb 24 12:18:37 lcuk2: ok for the console, what when there s just need to click on a deb in fileManager Feb 24 12:19:00 Who gets the money need to be a public entity with an object(=purpose) Feb 24 12:19:17 An association of developper building the soft Feb 24 12:19:28 Juridic public entity Feb 24 12:19:29 hardware have the money at least... Feb 24 12:19:42 KevinB, you're french aren't you? Feb 24 12:19:49 :) yes ,what? Feb 24 12:19:51 KevinB: Android Market is an example of a working market for an open-source platform Feb 24 12:20:07 bunk : 1 point, does ppl really buy app on Android Feb 24 12:20:08 semi open-source.. Feb 24 12:20:14 KevinB, il y a que les francais pour vouloir une assoc pour 3 pommes Feb 24 12:20:47 linux fundation host meego if you want an association Feb 24 12:20:51 KevinB, i dont disagree, but you have to admit thats alot of work just to collect the money. Probably easier to not charge at all Feb 24 12:20:54 h�h�h� : Quoi d'autre sinon? (What else could you use) instead of assiciation Feb 24 12:21:05 KevinB: US$ 102 000 000 revenue on Android Market in 2010 Feb 24 12:21:09 yea for example that would be great Feb 24 12:21:44 (same revenue as Ovi Store in 2010) Feb 24 12:21:52 Anyways to me the whole point of meego is that ISVs can make their own appstore and they can grab the 30% revenue Feb 24 12:21:57 * lcuk2 sighs and goes to sit down laterally on the bench Feb 24 12:23:02 * arfoll feels its a shame it's going to be the telco's grabbing that 30% if meego ever gets off commercially Feb 24 12:25:51 What about this : If a meego app is distributed through an appstore, it needs to be at least (1� or else) and the money goes to Linux Fundattion Feb 24 12:26:09 that's not very 'libre' is it Feb 24 12:26:10 :P Feb 24 12:26:12 Otherwise , user can install it manually Feb 24 12:26:22 for free or give what they want Feb 24 12:26:41 I just on the app store ppl shouldnt see any 0� good open source app Feb 24 12:27:26 If they wanna install the open-soft not through appstore, then it s free and on their own Feb 24 12:29:02 But actuallt people would say : ho only 1�... it must be not good... maybe the effect wanted wouldnt occur Feb 24 12:29:04 meego is opensource app not necessarily. An app can exist only closed even for gpl/operating system Feb 24 12:30:04 an app can just exist on ovi for example Feb 24 12:31:39 user can buy vuvuzela app $5 on ovi. Feb 24 12:32:22 well maybe nokia is not the good example :) Feb 24 12:35:06 niala1, have you got a link to the vuvuzela app? Feb 24 12:35:49 euh, sorry no is only in my crazy brain Feb 24 12:37:01 CIAO A TUTTI !!!!! Feb 24 12:37:11 ||||||||||||||| NEWS---> http://jrabbit.tk <--- |||||||||||||||| Feb 24 12:37:12 . Feb 24 12:37:14 ||||||||||||||| only ITALIAN RELEASE NEWS---> http://jrabbit.tk <--- |||||||||||||||| Feb 24 12:37:15