**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 23 02:59:57 2011 Mar 23 04:21:28 Hi Mar 23 06:39:30 Stskeeps : hello, are you on line? Mar 23 06:41:33 wassupnari: yeah, just woke up Mar 23 06:46:07 wassupnari: what's up? Mar 23 07:05:40 hm in qtcreator if I have "follow symbol under cursor" (f2) how do I step back to where I was? Mar 23 07:07:20 Alt+Back Mar 23 07:07:27 Alt+← Mar 23 07:07:51 like in a browser Mar 23 07:08:10 thiago_home, :D Mar 23 07:08:13 thanks Mar 23 07:11:05 morning Mar 23 07:13:34 \o Mar 23 07:15:59 vgrade: I ping'd last night because I was wondering if you had tablet ux running on anything I could take a look at some day. Mar 23 07:16:46 alterego, I have it on the Joggler and netbook, time for another meetup? Mar 23 07:17:08 vgrade: yeah I think that would be good :) Mar 23 07:17:21 maybe first half next month? Mar 23 07:18:12 I'm in Germany 4th to 16th then back for a week before going out there again for 2 weeks Mar 23 07:18:28 oh, heh Mar 23 07:18:34 let me check my calendar Mar 23 07:19:22 Okay, shall we say wed 20th april? Mar 23 07:19:52 give us a little more time sorting things out, you still available on irc etc whilst you're away? Mar 23 07:20:17 Lets gets it in the calendar, same venue? Yes always on IRC :) Mar 23 07:20:41 Yeah, can do same venue, or somewhere else if you like? :) Mar 23 07:23:06 Venue is OK for me, do you want to confirm with them then we can do an announcement Mar 23 07:23:52 you see my new vid?, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFoTrucY-s Mar 23 07:25:37 vgrade, okay I'll ask today as I'm popping in there anyway :) Mar 23 07:26:11 alterego, thanks Mar 23 07:26:28 What was your issue with declarative? Mar 23 07:26:41 * alterego is asking because he'll be hitting that soon he fears :) Mar 23 07:28:07 Paths. Ended up using Ah, heh, interesting. Mar 23 07:28:39 Anyhow I gotta run and get a bus, ciao for now Mar 23 07:28:53 OBS project spits out arm hard and soft fp and x86 rpms Mar 23 07:28:56 bye Mar 23 09:37:14 hi andre__ - are you aware of the EASYFIX addition to meego bugzilla? perhaps one should grow this into a newcomer project similar to GNOME love? Mar 23 09:37:33 mikhas: saw the email but haven't set up wikipages. should do, yeah Mar 23 09:37:39 I'll add it to my to-do list Mar 23 09:37:43 :-) Mar 23 09:38:01 does your list already overflow? Mar 23 09:38:16 ...if I manage find that paper list somewhere on this desk... Mar 23 09:38:32 it's still kind of manageable Mar 23 09:38:44 you imply that I have some planning on what I do ;-) Mar 23 09:39:04 andre__, you can also give some tasks to me ;) Mar 23 09:39:10 andre__, but not today :D Mar 23 09:39:12 WOW! Mar 23 09:39:17 others begging for work Mar 23 09:39:22 I must still be dreaming Mar 23 09:39:30 iekku, same the other way round of course :-P Mar 23 09:39:55 mikhas, well, i'm also member of the meego em-team, like andre__ so we need to share workflow Mar 23 09:40:25 ah, good to know *writes down nick into blackmail file* Mar 23 09:40:33 there's no point that someone tries to manage to do everything Mar 23 09:40:42 mikhas, oh no :D Mar 23 09:40:54 it's the only way to get things done! Mar 23 09:41:14 usually it's enough to ask :D Mar 23 09:41:20 the "MeeGo Blackmail Process" Mar 23 09:41:45 :( Mar 23 10:50:25 heh original design documents for GTA online Mar 23 10:50:28 http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/23/0552200/Original-emGTAem-Design-Docs-Dated-March-22nd-1995 Mar 23 10:50:39 one thing I notice is the call for optimsed drawing routines Mar 23 10:50:48 the more things change ,the more they stay the same. Mar 23 11:03:12 morning Mar 23 11:03:29 Jaffa, Ping? Mar 23 11:09:55 * timeless_w7ip sighs Mar 23 11:10:12 So I cloned Qt, and there's a file called "INSTALL" Mar 23 11:10:18 it has a thing that looks like a url: Mar 23 11:10:19 http://qt.nokia.com/doc/%SHORTVERSION%/install-win.html Mar 23 11:10:28 so i loaded it in my browser Mar 23 11:10:34 ... that didn't work well... Mar 23 11:11:02 lcuk, feel free to try http://qt.nokia.com/doc/%SHORTVERSION%/install-x11.html if you prefer ;-) Mar 23 11:12:23 heh timeless_w7ip Mar 23 11:12:57 try changing the url to use 4.7.3 Mar 23 11:13:33 that gets more interesting, though it backs up to 4.7.1 Mar 23 11:13:54 that's te interesting part! Mar 23 11:14:01 s/te/the/ Mar 23 11:14:02 timeless_w7ip meant: that's the interesting part! Mar 23 11:14:49 http://mxr.meego.com/qt.gitorious.org/source/qt/INSTALL is the file we're "reading" fwiw Mar 23 11:15:32 amusingly enough there's actually a guy listed as the maintainer of the file (see the last line of the web page) Mar 23 11:15:50 well, kinda, it seems no one has touced the file since '09 :) Mar 23 11:16:28 * timeless_w7ip goes to see if the guy still exists Mar 23 11:17:11 he does! Mar 23 11:17:36 but in typical nokia style, we can't spell his surname correctly Mar 23 11:17:44 or should i say typical nokia maps style Mar 23 11:22:18 > Note: The install path must not contain any spaces or Windows specific file system characters. Mar 23 11:22:29 * timeless_w7ip wonders WTF a "Windows specific file system character" is Mar 23 11:26:57 timeless_w7ip, clippy is unice 0x2937 :P Mar 23 11:27:07 s/unice/unicode/ Mar 23 11:27:08 lcuk meant: timeless_w7ip, clippy is unicode 0x2937 :P Mar 23 11:30:18 hrm, there's a blank line missing in configure -help's output Mar 23 11:31:01 timeless_w7ip: have you ever heard the phrase "polishing a turd".... Mar 23 11:34:13 dneary: pong Mar 23 11:34:42 Jaffa, Missing the council? :) Mar 23 11:35:31 Jaffa: Unfortunately, I'm just on my way ouut the door Mar 23 11:35:37 dneary: I'm in all day :-) Mar 23 11:35:45 dneary: Not missing the council (yet ;-)) Mar 23 11:43:26 lbt: yes Mar 23 11:43:47 http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-17463 Mar 23 11:45:54 * timeless_w7ip grumbles Mar 23 11:45:57 * timeless_w7ip kicks qt Mar 23 12:41:41 hi Mar 23 12:44:44 is systemd palnned for 1.3 ? Mar 23 12:51:34 smoku: yes Mar 23 12:52:14 finally :D Mar 23 12:52:25 Sage, have you seen my xbmc patch in home:arfoll:xbmc? Mar 23 12:52:51 the touchscreen one. I'm guessing you'd be interested in the same thing but for GLES Mar 23 12:54:15 arfoll: sry... haven't had time to do xbmc things lately. Mar 23 12:54:57 no worries, i'll probably write a gles version later this week wouldn't mind you giving it a go on the n900 Mar 23 12:55:24 sure Mar 23 14:50:13 hey Mar 23 14:51:03 MeeGo Installation on Dell laptop anyone? Mar 23 14:51:37 MeeGo Installation on Dell laptop? Mar 23 14:51:58 hello m talking to you Mar 23 14:52:46 * timeless_xchat pokes timeless_n8 Mar 23 14:56:31 patzaks: Yes. Mar 23 15:01:44 can someone check https://build.pub.meego.com/user/register_user is working Mar 23 15:03:15 * TSCHAKeee registers as slappy_the_idiot_man_clown Mar 23 15:03:29 what's new Mar 23 15:03:55 work...life...linuxmce...., you? ;) Mar 23 15:04:54 :) ... but seriously ... does the link work for you? Mar 23 15:05:04 I have someone having issues Mar 23 15:08:35 lbt: That link works... and the link to meego.com works. I didn't actually register a new acct, tho Mar 23 15:09:18 gabrbedd: thanks (I'm suspecting the problems are .... shall we say "intrinsic to the user") Mar 23 15:09:31 * timeless_n8 rotfl @ mIRGGI's font size selector Mar 23 15:09:39 lbt: ACK! PEBCAK! Mar 23 15:10:14 timeless_n8: we could do with some css help if you're bored Mar 23 15:10:55 Details? Mar 23 15:11:36 msg-ed Mar 23 15:13:06 lbt: mono-sodium glutimated -ed ? Mar 23 15:13:44 meh ... http://pkgdb.meego.com/ Mar 23 15:14:05 bt: that looks a little... grey Mar 23 15:14:09 ^l Mar 23 15:16:42 Oh, I see some grey text at the top :-) Mar 23 15:16:52 press [A] for new game [B] for 2 player Mar 23 15:17:41 LoCusF: ping Mar 23 15:18:44 hmm he's hiding Mar 23 15:19:48 yeah Mar 23 15:20:02 they're using #25.. on #22.. Mar 23 15:20:07 not a good idea Mar 23 15:20:53 also media=all causes the n8 browser to ignore the sheet Mar 23 15:21:05 drop the media bit so everyone suffers equally Mar 23 15:21:08 lbt: pong Mar 23 15:21:12 ah.... Mar 23 15:21:16 lbt: yes it does Mar 23 15:21:18 backlog ... Mar 23 15:21:19 ;) Mar 23 15:21:23 TSCHAKeee: thanks Mar 23 15:21:24 I'm trying to make it better Mar 23 15:21:40 LoCusF: some constructive feedback... Mar 23 15:21:47 please :) Mar 23 15:21:58 from timeless_xchat Mar 23 15:22:12 ok Mar 23 15:22:13 * lbt introduces LoCusF to timeless_xchat Mar 23 15:22:45 timeless_xchat: hello Mar 23 15:23:06 hi Mar 23 15:24:03 try #fff for background color Mar 23 15:25:05 gimme all you got, I'll package the changes as you need them Mar 23 15:25:29 so not immediately visible :) Mar 23 15:26:49 LoCusF: none of this should need packaging Mar 23 15:27:22 but reflecting them in anyways Mar 23 15:33:08 ok, better? Mar 23 15:42:30 LoCusF: Is there a reason why the links are incognito? (I have to mouse-over them to see that they're links... having identical formatting to the text) Mar 23 15:54:39 gabrbedd: revs.css :p Mar 23 15:55:52 I'll fix it for the frontpage Mar 23 15:58:28 LoCusF: :-) FWIW, even in revs.css it's still hard to tell the difference between a hyperlink and not. Mar 23 15:58:43 Mar 23 17:00:44 Stskeeps, when I tried to propose the EDS discussion for the next TSG meeting, we realized that we didnt even have one for quite some time (here on this channel). and then all of the sudden we had one on friday? and when the question surrounding that topic came up, the meeting was more or less wrapped up. as long as we dont get real answers, the only *technical* answers to "how can we implement feature X with EDS" will be "use tracker and friends, they alre Mar 23 17:00:44 ady have feature X". Mar 23 17:01:02 I know you try to help, but we have reached a somewhat circular reasoning here Mar 23 17:02:17 trying to separate the technical discussion from the reasoning will not work in an open community Mar 23 17:02:18 mikhas: Stskeeps' point is that the TSG is the arbitration board if something's gone wrong. Mar 23 17:02:51 evolution is a bad idea imo Mar 23 17:03:04 mikhas: So, for example, the members of the architects board lodging an objection to not being consulted (if they want to) and/or an objection to the decision on technical merits Mar 23 17:03:14 Jaffa, yes, and I can try that. probably waiting for official meetings is wrong Mar 23 17:03:43 mikhas: I asked when the next TSG meeting was on Friday. Answer is "when necessary" Mar 23 17:04:02 yes, I remember that Mar 23 17:04:19 jaffa has my point right, propose motions and there will be a tsg Mar 23 17:07:07 so send a mail to Imad Mar 23 17:07:17 he said you could Mar 23 17:07:22 cc the discussion thread Mar 23 17:07:30 and ask for some arbitration Mar 23 17:09:06 yep, ok Mar 23 17:10:08 alterego: evolution as in EDS for PIM store? very much. Mar 23 17:10:46 sets back meego to diablo level - if maemo terms are permitted - when upstream eds is used Mar 23 17:11:08 I don't get what the problem is with tracker/seaside :/ Mar 23 17:11:17 I really like it :( Mar 23 17:11:25 somebody is butt hurt Mar 23 17:11:46 And it's gonna screw mobility. Mar 23 17:11:58 i find it silly to argue over pieces of tech like this Mar 23 17:12:04 especially when there are bigger problems to solve Mar 23 17:12:04 tracker is on pair in performance, no it is better as it does more Mar 23 17:12:07 It'll screw messaging, contacts and dialer Mar 23 17:12:08 like... Mar 23 17:12:16 ...oh...actually finishing Handset, and Tablet. Mar 23 17:12:26 you only say that because you dont realize the scope Mar 23 17:12:30 this is Debian sophomore bullshit. Mar 23 17:12:47 devices will come, but it is not in my hands Mar 23 17:12:52 so I focus on software, ok? Mar 23 17:12:59 I don't agree, tracker is a major component, which gives the platform a _huge_ edge Mar 23 17:13:00 I would just like to see some predictability in terms of timing Mar 23 17:13:17 It effects a lot, all the way to UI Mar 23 17:13:42 It allows for integration that can potentially surpass anything else around. Mar 23 17:13:42 it is ineffective to complain about things I cannot influence (devices) Mar 23 17:14:35 Losing tracker and seaside dramatically reduces MeeGos potential, imo. Mar 23 17:15:06 MeeGo loses potential when nobody can make plans Mar 23 17:15:37 And EDS is poor, finite contact details, non-flexible querying facilities. Mar 23 17:15:39 true Mar 23 17:15:51 I might as well use a filofax again :P Mar 23 17:16:23 TSCHAKeee: "Debian sophomore"? Mar 23 17:16:32 At least then I can introduce semantics and an extensible field set :) Mar 23 17:17:08 Jaffa: yes. Mar 23 17:17:12 alterego, agree on seaside - python was always the most popular language in Maemo. not C, not C++, not QML Mar 23 17:17:51 mikhas: I think C was probably more popular tbh Mar 23 17:18:03 s/was/is/ Mar 23 17:18:03 alterego meant: mikhas: I think C is probably more popular tbh Mar 23 17:18:09 Jaffa: it's senseless arguing, especially if nobody steps in and has a final word. Mar 23 17:18:28 Jaffa: Debian falls into this stupid trap, and it takes them YEARS to decide ANYTHING at all. Mar 23 17:18:42 Well, I'll step in, but us outside contributors don't have much weight :P Mar 23 17:18:59 TSCHAKeee, that's why intel is developing it internally afaik Mar 23 17:19:17 alterego: heh, i would say you're making immense weight with the qml work :) at least in some areas you do influence Mar 23 17:19:24 TSCHAKeee: You're equating public discussion with public consensus being necessary to progress. Mar 23 17:19:37 TSCHAKeee: They're not equivalent. Mar 23 17:20:23 Jaffa: i'm speaking as someone who spent almost 15 years inside the scope of Debian watching pointless discussion after pointless discussion Mar 23 17:20:30 it's not like debian has to decide anything that affects the user really, except the default configuration the install cd does Mar 23 17:20:34 which never reached consensus Mar 23 17:20:52 and licenses I guess, but you can get over those also Mar 23 17:20:55 in the end, you have to have somebody who finally says, "This is how it is." Mar 23 17:21:07 The Tyrant Mar 23 17:21:24 TSCHAKeee: That was the _start_ of this; perhaps the balance went too far the other way? ;-) Mar 23 17:21:37 People then need to listen to & follow the tyrant, though Mar 23 17:21:41 this is the trick, to find the balance Mar 23 17:21:58 the problem is, i've never seen public design actually produce anything. Mar 23 17:22:06 qgil_: Interesting definition of meritocracy Mar 23 17:22:33 dneary: I actually find your interesting :) Mar 23 17:22:48 qgil_, Meritocracy as I understood it is appointment on *displayed* merit, whereas in this situation, all merit is invisible to me Mar 23 17:23:06 keep in mind, MeeGo is trying to produce reference designs of multiple UI targets. This is difficult enough in a closed environment. Mar 23 17:23:10 qgil_, It seems like "Imad knows they're good" is the meritocratic justification Mar 23 17:23:53 I may honestly have missed it - did Valtteri automatically resign from the TSG when he left Nokia? Mar 23 17:24:12 dneary: I don't have more information than you, but I guess that China Mobile is working on something MeeGo if they decide to join a Handset WG Mar 23 17:24:13 Or was the seat a Nokia seat? Mar 23 17:24:39 dneary: Nokia has a seta in the Handset WG too Mar 23 17:25:14 Like I said via email earlier, my definition of merit was that it was assigned to an individual, not an organisation Mar 23 17:25:16 dneary: being active in a mailing list is indeed one indication of merit, but not the only one Mar 23 17:26:03 This somehow reminds me of Matt Zimmerman debating whether "meritocracy" or "do-ocracy" is the appropriate term for projects like GNOME Mar 23 17:27:10 dneary: I believe the companies nominated for WGs are actually active players in do-ocraticf terms - it's just that commercial development is usually not as transparent as you wish Mar 23 17:27:43 dneary: I believe the merit to Nokia, Intel, China Mobile etc is given clearly to companies Mar 23 17:28:00 in the WGs at least - maintaining components might be a different business Mar 23 17:28:07 s/"as you wish"/"as the MeeGo project was announced to be" Mar 23 17:28:10 WGs and TSG Mar 23 17:28:21 qgil_, I have no inherent problem with trade associations Mar 23 17:28:45 qgil_, It's a good way to get stuff done, if you can set up the governance right Mar 23 17:29:16 dneary: how do you measure the success of the MeeGo project? Mar 23 17:29:23 But usually, an individual contributor knows where he stands in a trade association - he has basically no weight in the direction of the project Mar 23 17:29:52 qgil_, I'm not concerned (when talking about this particular subject) with the success of the MeeGo project Mar 23 17:30:01 dneary: I can be a great professional, and I alone can be a great maintainer of an open source component (hypothetic case) but no person alone can ship MeeGo products Mar 23 17:30:15 I'm concerned about a growing gap between the reality & the messaging of the project (and these gaps tend to cause friction) Mar 23 17:30:54 If you advertise MeeGo as an open transparent meritocracy, where anyone can show up & impact the project, then people expect to see that in practice Mar 23 17:30:56 dneary: what are the merits for? Ultimately the meritocracy needs to serve the success of the project - this looks clear to me Mar 23 17:31:12 dneary: it's not some kind of compensation system for efforts put in whatever direction Mar 23 17:31:42 qgil_, I fear we're speaking at cross purposes Mar 23 17:32:00 dneary: I don't think that appointing a China Mobile representative to the Handset WG is stopping any individual to scale up in the MeeGo meritocracy - both things need to exist Mar 23 17:32:26 qgil_, What I am saying is: if I need to be a company building a device to influence the direction of a UX or the core platform, that's fine. Mar 23 17:32:34 But that is not what has been announced Mar 23 17:32:59 i've been saying this since day 1 lolz Mar 23 17:33:08 and same about maemo fwiw Mar 23 17:33:12 And people who are not companies, who would like to influence the direction of an UX or the core platform (and have the skills & drive to do so) will become frustrated Mar 23 17:33:43 That's all I'm saying - that there is a gap between the communication & the reality which has become *very* clear this week Mar 23 17:33:54 "Any individual or organization can join and get involved in software development. We also welcome other ways of contributing to the success of the project, including writing documentation, testing, and marketing." Mar 23 17:33:57 And this gap will come back to bite the project in the ass Mar 23 17:34:14 "MeeGo leadership and governance principle is based on meritocracy, much in the same way as with the Linux kernel or many other Open Source projects. This means that various team or function leaders and subsystem maintainers are selected based on the quality and quantity of their contribution to MeeGo in relevant areas." Mar 23 17:34:41 I think you know what I mean, and feel that you're not in a position to acknowledge it in a public forum. Mar 23 17:34:50 you can drive a FEA just fine as an individual, WGs just deliver requirements to be entered into exact same process though Mar 23 17:34:54 "The working groups are devoted to strategic discussions in specific areas and are accountable to provide input and guidance about requirements, direction, policies, and conflict resolution, within their area of responsibility. These working groups are open to maintainers and other individuals and organizations that specialize in the domain of the specific group." Mar 23 17:35:13 this came from http://meego.com/about/governance Mar 23 17:35:44 dneary: more at http://wiki.meego.com/Working_Group_Process Mar 23 17:36:02 qgil_: do you feel, that up until now, individuals have been able to influence the direction of an UX or core platform? Mar 23 17:36:09 can you cite any cases where this has happened? Mar 23 17:37:21 jonnor: to start with the UX work hasn't been done in the public, so I don't think any individual or company not involved in the work has got the means to influence Mar 23 17:38:16 jonnor, I would consider the DeveloperEdition to be in direct response to months of repeated questions by community as a whole, wouldn't you? Mar 23 17:38:32 but this also goes the other way around: can you name an individual that has done the merits but has been ignored? Mar 23 17:39:03 dneary: I don't have anything to hide - what you see here are my frank opinions Mar 23 17:40:18 qgil_: lbt has made some good points about how the repositories work, which seem to have been totally ignored, to the detriment of everyone trying to use them Mar 23 17:40:47 qgil_: That's a strawman. What we've seen with the Maemo 5 CSSU shows what can happen when people feel they've got an avenue to contribute. A lot of the stuff could have been done when Nokia were looking after fremantle, but patches languished in Bugzilla and would never be shipped. Now we have an avenue for people to see their contributions being accepted and discussed, they contribute. Mar 23 17:41:20 lcuk: yes, this is a good move. I'm not sure if the motivation is the activitivy community, wanting to boost the application development activity in the community though :) Mar 23 17:41:24 ali1234: as far as I know lbt is owner of the Community OBS and has got all the chances to discuss with the OBS owners, has been paid to fly to Helsinki and Portland, etc Mar 23 17:41:43 i totally agree about maemo 5 CSSU btw Mar 23 17:41:45 "Now *that* we have ...." Mar 23 17:42:03 qgil_: well, i'm not really in the loop on such things Mar 23 17:42:06 Jaffa: the question was about MeeGo UX and Core development, the Maemo 5 CSSU is a different case Mar 23 17:42:15 ali1234: just sayin' Mar 23 17:42:36 qgil_: actually the core OBS people pretty much won't talk to me Mar 23 17:42:46 qgil_: I was using it to illustrate that saying "what individuals have tried to contribute" isn't going to be representative as the culture is not amenable to accepting individual contributions. So no-one tries. Mar 23 17:43:06 qgil_, Then allow me to say that having looked at MeeGo for a year, I still have no idea how a talented & motivated individual can effect change in a user interface project in MeeGo Mar 23 17:43:22 qgil_, So for all the documentation & best of intentions, the reality doesn't match up Mar 23 17:43:29 Jaffa: if an individual is going to influence the MeeGo platform or UX development I expect that individual to be a senior platform or UX developer Mar 23 17:43:38 qgil_: and I feel that core MeeGo have ignored almost everything done by community OBS and by my team (as a vendor) in nokia Mar 23 17:43:59 qgil_: Right, but everything's done by the time it's unveiled so there's nothing to be done. It's "UI Specification" all over again Mar 23 17:44:02 Look at the Netbook UX (abandoned), or the (lack of) transparency in architecture decisions, or the tablet UX (developed with no public code) Mar 23 17:44:06 What's the way in? Mar 23 17:44:19 What's the equivalent to the Fedora or Debian package maintainer? Mar 23 17:44:36 Or the GNOME module submission period? Mar 23 17:45:04 lbt: do you think that as Nokia employee (or Digia or whatever employee) you would have got a different different situation? Note that we are discussing here individuals vs employees - btw your work is being done mainly as a paid job afaik Mar 23 17:45:32 Anybody know of a wiki link for setting up osc on my local machine to work with OBS? My search skills are failing me. :-) Mar 23 17:45:36 the avenues are actually there nowadays but not widely understood/noone contributes. but some examples do exist of patches and influencing being done . IVI, handset dialer, etc Mar 23 17:45:38 qgil_, Don't feel like I'm ganging up on you - I'd just like there to be a clear parallel between comms & reality Mar 23 17:45:43 lbt: sorry for dragging you into this :/ Mar 23 17:46:06 dneary Jaffa yes and yes - I'm not disagreeing with you on this Mar 23 17:46:24 ali1234: np.. very useful Mar 23 17:46:48 dneary: the discussion started because you disagree with me when I say that it makes sense that a company like China Mobile gets a seat in the Handset WG without having written a post in a MeeGo project mailing list Mar 23 17:47:11 qgil_, Is that what I said? Mar 23 17:47:28 qgil_: I think that as an Intel employee/external.... I would have achieved more Mar 23 17:47:32 and I'm just saying that there needs to be a path for commercial parties that will not always follow the path of individuals Mar 23 17:47:42 Stskeeps, blog about those avenues! Mar 23 17:48:14 in general I'm very supportive of MeeGo being commercially/employee oriented Mar 23 17:48:49 dneary: this discussion started afaik when you said that http://twitter.com/quimgil/status/50561107789758464 was an "Interesting definition of meritocracy" Mar 23 17:50:28 mikhas: i'm even doing a meego conference talk on some of these things.. Mar 23 17:50:40 if approved Mar 23 17:50:53 dneary: but again I'm nobody here and these are only my opinions. As a matter of fact I'm "suffering" just as much the consequences of being an employee of a company that has decreased its potential merits in the MeeGo project Mar 23 17:51:21 dneary: and I agree with the principle Mar 23 17:51:46 locusf: so... Mar 23 17:51:48 qgil_, Yes. So let me repeat myself: I have no problem with China Mobile getting a seat on a WG after they agree (presumably) to build MeeGo devices Mar 23 17:52:01 qgil_, I'm just saying that's not what I call a meritocracy Mar 23 17:52:08 you should /probably/ write "IVI" instead of "ivi" Mar 23 17:52:17 dneary: fine, can we agree to disagree? Mar 23 17:52:18 So there's a gap between the current reality of the project and its communications Mar 23 17:52:23 dneary: WG isn't design though Mar 23 17:52:24 qgil_, Yes Mar 23 17:52:30 dneary, meritocracy - alterego as a community hacker, from around maemo and meego, spent the last months *learning* QML, liaising with the community and official developers, picking up ways of working, finding out how to become a member of a team with them, and now seemingly in a great position to be able to put together the UI front end for arguably one of the most important apps on a handset. Mar 23 17:52:31 no Mar 23 17:52:33 Sorry - no Mar 23 17:52:41 We can't agree to disagree. Mar 23 17:52:50 It's not enough for me to be right, you have to be wrong too Mar 23 17:52:51 dneary: WF isn't where meritocracy should operate Mar 23 17:52:59 dneary, i would be weary of saying these companies have no contributed, employees have been know to not use work email addresses etc... Mar 23 17:53:08 dneary: oh, I suddenly realized that I'm wrong, then ;) Mar 23 17:53:20 but the EDS/Tracker debate is Mar 23 17:53:25 LG engineers has actually been around here for a while :P Mar 23 17:53:26 qgil_, I was joking :) Mar 23 17:53:44 arfoll: if x people from a company want to acknowledge they have been contributing and are part of a company Mar 23 17:53:53 dneary: that's why ";)" Mar 23 17:53:57 lcuk, what's he working on? Mar 23 17:54:04 i'm quite happy to say "that entitles your company to a seat" Mar 23 17:54:04 dneary, the dialer. Mar 23 17:54:18 Cool, hopefully some of those LG guys will want to employ me :) Mar 23 17:54:18 and doing bloody well at it too! Mar 23 17:54:26 timeless_xchat: I guess you are not going to give lessons about this topic ;) Mar 23 17:54:33 timeless_xchat, some companies would rather employees not reveal this in public lists Mar 23 17:54:38 timeless_xchat, I repeat, I have no problem with this. This is how Eclipse works. Mar 23 17:55:06 qgil: i don't think my employer is entitled to a seat, no :-b Mar 23 17:55:29 timeless_xchat: I was talking about using company's email address but nevermind Mar 23 17:55:42 arfoll: i'm willing for a proxy to report a count Mar 23 17:56:17 "hi, i've counted x contributors from Y co, we think this is a reason to give Y co a seat" Mar 23 17:56:40 that would probably have been nice Mar 23 17:56:52 qgil: gah, i'm fine with saying i work for Y co Mar 23 17:57:02 and i do when asked or required to do so Mar 23 17:57:20 i'm also fine with my employer not asking me to constantly use my address Mar 23 17:57:43 which seems to align with arfoll's description of some status quo Mar 23 17:58:03 Do we have any unaffiliated seat members? Mar 23 17:58:17 Or is it all Nokia/Intel/other? Mar 23 17:58:24 of course not, they're not companies *g* Mar 23 17:58:24 no/yes Mar 23 17:58:25 alterego: it's sad that you have to ask Mar 23 17:58:33 I think you all need some cake Mar 23 17:58:36 cheesecake Mar 23 17:58:36 timeless_xchat: indeed :) Mar 23 17:58:44 Myrtti: strawberry? Mar 23 17:58:46 myrtti : i'm having food Mar 23 17:58:47 can I just ask - which table is being discussed to sit around? Mar 23 17:58:55 the cake table, I think Mar 23 17:58:59 the round one? Mar 23 17:59:00 lcuk : good question Mar 23 17:59:02 Heh Mar 23 17:59:11 timeless_xchat: I'm having cough syrup Mar 23 17:59:34 frals: is this a round table not all seats being equal? some more equal than others? Mar 23 17:59:46 myrtti, :( get well soon Mar 23 18:00:00 timeless_mbp: theres always someone being more equal than others ;) Mar 23 18:00:01 all animals are equal *oink* Mar 23 18:00:32 mmm bacon Mar 23 18:01:15 mmmm fried chicken Mar 23 18:01:46 mmmm cake Mar 23 18:01:48 treif. treif! Mar 23 18:02:43 * timeless_xchat dispensed hamentashen this week Mar 23 18:02:49 legal persons are typically more equal than natural persons Mar 23 18:04:06 * alterego isn't really a talking person. Mar 23 18:04:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBoot Mar 23 18:04:23 err, wrong window Mar 23 18:04:33 Seriously, I don't care if meego decides to use eds, I'll just continue using tracker and seaside in my own builds. Mar 23 18:04:35 * iekku is more like a big, more equal Mar 23 18:04:56 * w00t_ should finish his seaside patch Mar 23 18:05:07 My dialer relys on it, my contacts will rely on it and so will my messaging. Mar 23 18:05:20 why do you rely on tracker? Mar 23 18:05:25 iekku, more big, more equal Mar 23 18:05:26 s/relys/relies/ Mar 23 18:05:33 do we need to draga big Community WG table in? Mar 23 18:05:45 lcuk, yeah Mar 23 18:05:51 (hopefully multitouch) Mar 23 18:05:55 for a moment I thought you were talking of Minecraft Mar 23 18:05:58 iekku: certainly quantity has a quality all its own Mar 23 18:06:00 So when I've rewritten every reference app I want to in Qml, we'll see who has the most attractive build :) Mar 23 18:06:31 Hell, when I've done those I'll probably implement my own handsetux ... Mar 23 18:06:54 alterego ;) believe me - if you try and do everything yourself you will be still unfinished about 4 years down the line Mar 23 18:06:57 The fact I _can_ do this is more important to me than this crap. Mar 23 18:07:07 is 2011 the year of corporate open source? Mar 23 18:07:10 lcuk: I never finish anything :P Mar 23 18:07:17 alterego: CLAP CLAP CLAP Mar 23 18:07:35 alterego, that is why turning "I" in your sentences into "we" is important Mar 23 18:07:43 :) Mar 23 18:07:49 no Mar 23 18:07:51 lcuk: We never finish anything :P Mar 23 18:07:57 :D Mar 23 18:08:06 turning "i" into "we" just ensures a project gets bogged down by committee nonsense Mar 23 18:08:13 alterego, but we WILL Finnish it. Mar 23 18:08:19 Hah Mar 23 18:08:31 my Nokia device is screaming for a MeeGo handset build that works :) Mar 23 18:08:41 * w00t_ sends a mail to arrange going to SF Mar 23 18:08:47 Yes, mine too. Mar 23 18:08:58 it's not a coincidence that the person actually *making* something is not interested at all in what the WG is arguing about this week Mar 23 18:09:30