**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 12 02:59:57 2011
Apr 12 03:21:36 <iekku> morning
Apr 12 03:22:38 <berndhs> evening
Apr 12 03:22:44 <iekku> :)
Apr 12 03:23:10 <berndhs> got another 38 minutes until its technically morning
Apr 12 07:12:49 <weggi_> Bird: Try this API? http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtmobility-1.1/systeminfo.html
Apr 12 09:14:05 <CosmoHill> does this website load for anyone? http://amiapoil-burmese.co.uk/
Apr 12 09:15:40 <timoph> yep. there be cats
Apr 12 09:15:50 <CosmoHill> thanks timoph
Apr 12 09:16:10 * CosmoHill emails his aunty saying the server is fine
Apr 12 09:16:34 <timoph> np
Apr 12 09:16:48 <CosmoHill> don't suppose you're also a french wanadoo customer?
Apr 12 09:16:59 <timoph> no :)
Apr 12 09:19:02 <CosmoHill> any comments on the design?
Apr 12 09:21:11 <timoph> pretty clear and simple. I woundn't use scrolling text as a link
Apr 12 09:21:44 <CosmoHill> I don't like that either but that's what she wanted
Apr 12 09:22:00 <CosmoHill> a hell of a lot nicer than using javascript for the same task
Apr 12 09:22:15 <timoph> :)
Apr 12 09:24:16 <CosmoHill> ha, just seen geocities on the links page
Apr 12 09:30:36 <CosmoHill> thanks for checking and for the comments timoph :)
Apr 12 09:30:43 <arnaud> CosmoHill: I'm an Orange customer (no choice ;)), In can try this evening if you want
Apr 12 09:30:57 <arnaud> (let me a query with the address if you want so)
Apr 12 09:31:04 <arnaud> (Orange = Wanadoo)
Apr 12 09:31:22 <CosmoHill> thanks but it's specifically french wanadoo customers
Apr 12 09:31:30 <chouchoune> yes, I'm in France
Apr 12 09:31:42 <chouchoune> and an Orange customer
Apr 12 09:31:47 <CosmoHill> you can give the FTP a go if you'd like
Apr 12 09:31:51 <chouchoune> and Wanadoo is the old name of Orange
Apr 12 09:31:53 <CosmoHill> see if it asks you for details
Apr 12 09:31:59 <CosmoHill> oh, when did they change?
Apr 12 09:32:06 <chouchoune> long time ago
Apr 12 09:32:20 <chouchoune> but old customer still have wanadoo addresses I guess
Apr 12 09:32:35 <CosmoHill> I'd imagine you'd still be within the same IP range
Apr 12 09:32:45 <chouchoune> yes I guess so
Apr 12 09:32:50 <chouchoune> but I can't try now
Apr 12 09:32:54 <CosmoHill> I got annoyed with china and banned the world
Apr 12 09:32:55 <chouchoune> I'm at work
Apr 12 09:33:19 <CosmoHill> (from FTP access)
Apr 12 09:40:01 <lbt> X-Fade: we should discuss this here....
Apr 12 09:40:45 <X-Fade> lbt: Sure.
Apr 12 09:41:16 <lbt> but if you push the 1.2 version to M:1.2:Apps then you have to keep track of which version goes where
Apr 12 09:41:37 <lbt> although I suppose that's a rare occurence
Apr 12 09:42:17 <X-Fade> lbt: If someone wants to target every version, then you need to have a clever spec and probably also code with a lot of IFDEFs.
Apr 12 09:42:40 <lbt> OK ... so   MeeGo:Apps:<Target>[:Testing] then ?
Apr 12 09:42:57 <X-Fade> lbt: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Apps
Apr 12 09:43:01 <lbt> X-Fade: yeah - and they may want different pkgs
Apr 12 09:43:25 <X-Fade> lbt: yes, as UX theming etc really might change.
Apr 12 09:43:26 <lbt> you think it belongs under M:1.1 ?
Apr 12 09:44:00 <X-Fade> lbt: It makes it clear what the dependency tree actually is.
Apr 12 09:44:08 <X-Fade> lbt: But it does make for longer names.
Apr 12 09:44:35 <X-Fade> Btw, you came up with that naming proposal :)
Apr 12 09:44:41 <lbt> *g*
Apr 12 09:45:02 <lbt> I make all kinds of bad decisions before getting it right
Apr 12 09:45:16 <lbt> now I kinda wonder if we should have M:Apps M:Surrounds as high level
Apr 12 09:45:39 <lbt> I'm thinking it's a clearer management area
Apr 12 09:45:43 <X-Fade> And then version?
Apr 12 09:45:49 <lbt> yes
Apr 12 09:46:00 <lbt> M:Apps:1.1:IVI ?
Apr 12 09:46:00 <X-Fade> It makes sorting easier at least.
Apr 12 09:46:34 <X-Fade> As OBS ui is not really nice for project listing like that.
Apr 12 09:46:49 <lbt> no - there's a patch to help
Apr 12 09:46:57 <lbt> BTW we really need to upgrade OBS
Apr 12 09:47:21 <lbt> it's running some old cruft in there 2.0.1.lbt88 or something
Apr 12 09:47:23 <X-Fade> Yeah, but webui layout should not cause us to decide things like that though :)
Apr 12 09:47:51 <lbt> hand applied security backported patches?
Apr 12 09:48:04 <lbt> "go on then"
Apr 12 09:48:23 <X-Fade> I'd rather get the process going asap.
Apr 12 09:48:35 <lbt> yes, agreeed
Apr 12 09:48:43 <X-Fade> As the 1.2 release is coming near and we really need to have everything in place before then.
Apr 12 09:50:00 <Sage> X-Fade,lbt: What kind of structure will there be for cobs for the community packages?
Apr 12 09:50:22 <X-Fade> Sage: That is what we're trying to decide now :)
Apr 12 09:50:27 <lbt> Sage: come to MeeFo Summit.fi
Apr 12 09:50:40 <X-Fade> Won't be there though.
Apr 12 09:50:42 <Sage> lbt mentioned M:Apps:1.1:IVI, but I guess with 1.2 there isn't any IVI/Handset etc. repos anymore
Apr 12 09:50:52 <Sage> lbt: Unfortunately I can't make it. :(
Apr 12 09:50:54 <lbt> Sage: indeed...
Apr 12 09:51:10 <X-Fade> Yeah, but how would one target a specific UX though.
Apr 12 09:51:29 <Sage> X-Fade: one should not target a specific UX, meego apps should work on all of them.
Apr 12 09:51:43 <lbt> Sage: and in the real world....
Apr 12 09:51:45 <X-Fade> Sage: That is a nice idea..
Apr 12 09:51:49 <X-Fade> Sage: But really..
Apr 12 09:51:56 <Stskeeps> lbt: when are you in tampere, btw?
Apr 12 09:52:06 <lbt> thursday pm .. 4ish
Apr 12 09:52:07 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: in practice there's one sysroot, one trunk :P
Apr 12 09:52:19 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: But is there one theme? :)
Apr 12 09:52:27 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: no, but from OBS pov it doesn't matter
Apr 12 09:52:28 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 12 09:52:44 <Stskeeps> lbt: ok, i'm here from yesterday
Apr 12 09:52:46 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: We also need to think about the appinstaller perspective.
Apr 12 09:52:56 <Sage> I know that in real world it is not so simple. But we should try at least. Also if application works only on handset UX then it can require on handset ux components.
Apr 12 09:52:58 <X-Fade> How would I only list the apps that work on Tablet UX.
Apr 12 09:52:59 <lbt> Stskeeps: wow... that's early!
Apr 12 09:53:10 <Stskeeps> lbt: getting some work done :P
Apr 12 09:53:35 <X-Fade> And what if I need ofono and tabletUX doesn't have it?
Apr 12 09:53:48 <X-Fade> How would I then target everything?
Apr 12 09:53:59 <Sage> X-Fade: all meego verticals should have ofono IIRC
Apr 12 09:54:18 <X-Fade> Sage: Ok, bad example ;)
Apr 12 09:54:35 <Sage> X-Fade: also if app needs ofono then it depends on it and it comes with the applications. ofono will be anyway on meego core repository that is used for all verticals.
Apr 12 09:54:38 <Sage> X-Fade: ;)
Apr 12 09:54:41 <lbt> Sage: honestly... we're still figuring it out
Apr 12 09:54:43 <X-Fade> Just wondering if we are sure that we always have everything.
Apr 12 09:54:49 <Stskeeps> but anyway, what's delivered from meego.com is oss/ and non-oss/ and noone should build against oss :P
Apr 12 09:54:52 <Stskeeps> err.
Apr 12 09:54:54 <Stskeeps> non-oss
Apr 12 09:55:01 <lbt> if we need diversity and don't have it... that's worse than having it and not needing it
Apr 12 09:55:32 <X-Fade> I just want to prevent that we will have a list of apps which don't make any sense on the device you are using.
Apr 12 09:56:04 <X-Fade> We somehow need to make sure we have certain targets?
Apr 12 09:56:30 <lbt> X-Fade: also we should distinguish build-system/repo from UI
Apr 12 09:56:33 <Sage> X-Fade: I think that is something that the rpm's group should do actually.
Apr 12 09:56:52 <Sage> s/should/could/
Apr 12 09:56:52 <infobot> Sage meant: X-Fade: I think that is something that the rpm's group could do actually.
Apr 12 09:57:00 <X-Fade> Sage: development, games.. Yeah, very descriptive :)
Apr 12 09:57:08 <Sage> infobot: :)
Apr 12 09:57:09 <infobot> (:
Apr 12 09:57:30 <saidinesh5> pohly: ping
Apr 12 09:58:00 <Sage> X-Fade: lets take an example. There is currently the Tablet apps (also called MeeGo UX) that user wants to use on Handset image as well.
Apr 12 09:58:17 <pohly> saidinesh5: hello
Apr 12 09:58:24 <saidinesh5> Hi ..
Apr 12 09:58:24 <Sage> So should user add new repository to add those apps to his image?
Apr 12 09:58:43 <timeless_w7ip> lcuk: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14224#c6 is amusing
Apr 12 09:58:45 <X-Fade> Sage: Your image determines which apps you see?
Apr 12 09:58:46 <MeeGoBot> Bug 14224 is not accessible
Apr 12 09:58:54 * CosmoHill headbangs his desk
Apr 12 09:58:54 <saidinesh5> you said that you were waiting for an okay from me
Apr 12 09:59:03 <saidinesh5> for the code review
Apr 12 09:59:24 <pohly> saidinesh5: I rewrote the commits a lot and wanted to be sure that the descriptions still match the code.
Apr 12 09:59:30 * timeless_w7ip wonders why cosmohill attacked his desk
Apr 12 09:59:34 <saidinesh5> ohh
Apr 12 09:59:42 <Sage> X-Fade: Maybe package manager not image. In theory it should be possile to change from one UX to another within same image.
Apr 12 09:59:44 <pohly> You'll know that better than myself.
Apr 12 09:59:44 <saidinesh5> yes, i have seen it and tested the branch
Apr 12 09:59:52 <X-Fade> Sage: I think we really should target use cases too.
Apr 12 09:59:57 <pohly> Did you look at the commit history?
Apr 12 09:59:58 <saidinesh5> oh you mean you were waiting for my review
Apr 12 09:59:59 <saidinesh5> yes
Apr 12 10:00:00 <saidinesh5> i have
Apr 12 10:00:02 <X-Fade> Sage: We should target end users.
Apr 12 10:00:10 <saidinesh5> you have sqashed together a lot of commits
Apr 12 10:00:20 <X-Fade> Sage: Not hackers who change UX every day :)
Apr 12 10:00:24 <saidinesh5> and removed the libproxy
Apr 12 10:00:24 <Sage> X-Fade: Ok, lets take XBMC as an example. Which repository should that belong to Handset/Tablet/Netbook/IVI?
Apr 12 10:00:44 <X-Fade> Sage: And for end-users a fuel economy app for your bmw, doesn't really make sense on your handset?
Apr 12 10:00:48 <pohly> The libproxy support already was gone in the HEAD of your own branch, wasn't it?
Apr 12 10:01:10 <Sage> X-Fade: N900 config package doesn't make any sens in meego core but still it is there ;)
Apr 12 10:01:16 <saidinesh5> yes, but there was 1 commit still, in which i forgot to remove out the #include <proxy.h>
Apr 12 10:01:18 <X-Fade> Sage: xmbc can be useful for any ux.
Apr 12 10:01:23 <X-Fade> Sage: But not all apps are.
Apr 12 10:01:43 <Sage> X-Fade: ok, so you suggest that there would be also some general for all UX repo?
Apr 12 10:01:45 * timeless_w7ip needs to allocate time to fight OBS
Apr 12 10:01:55 <lbt> Sage: FYI the idea is that we have general repos
Apr 12 10:02:05 <X-Fade> Sage: Yes. That was why we hade a Core target too.
Apr 12 10:02:07 <lbt> for apps with broad support
Apr 12 10:02:08 <saidinesh5> lemme check
Apr 12 10:02:16 <Sage> ok, well then I don't have anything agains the Handset/Tablet/... etc repos. :)
Apr 12 10:02:36 <Stskeeps> don't they all link to the same place, anyway..?
Apr 12 10:02:38 <saidinesh5> and also i have compiled and checked the HEAD of the akonadi-merge-pohly branch the same way the usual testing
Apr 12 10:02:39 <lbt> Sage: yes - and if they're empty... mission accomplished
Apr 12 10:02:39 <X-Fade> I'm all for a 'here are all apps we have repo'.
Apr 12 10:03:04 <X-Fade> But we also need to have one per experience which has a higher quality than that.
Apr 12 10:03:23 <pohly> saidinesh5: sounds like I should go ahead and include in the master branch.
Apr 12 10:03:32 <saidinesh5> and it still fails with the particular test cases that i have mentioned in one of the commit messages
Apr 12 10:03:44 <saidinesh5> so if you can look at those failed cases
Apr 12 10:03:57 <X-Fade> Also, is every vendor shipping everything that is in the 1.2 repo now? Or are they allowed to remove something?
Apr 12 10:04:09 <saidinesh5> then we can go ahead and include it in the master branch
Apr 12 10:04:19 <timeless_w7ip> x-fade: i presume nokia isn't a vendor?
Apr 12 10:04:41 <pohly> saidinesh5: I probably won't have time to fix any of these failures or investigate them.
Apr 12 10:04:57 <saidinesh5> Oh
Apr 12 10:05:08 <saidinesh5> i ll fix them though
Apr 12 10:05:17 <X-Fade> timeless_w7ip: It is a vendor when they ship a meego device :)
Apr 12 10:05:23 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: there's a compliance package group
Apr 12 10:05:41 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: But does that contain your n900 package for instance?
Apr 12 10:05:42 <pohly> That would be good. I really need a permanent maintainer for SyncEvolution+KDE, because my time is too limited.
Apr 12 10:05:43 <saidinesh5> but how do i basically check the syncing of the kde specific fields
Apr 12 10:05:58 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: it doesn't contain anything hw specific, i think
Apr 12 10:06:15 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: Then it is very hard for us to target the general 1.2 rpo.
Apr 12 10:06:18 <pohly> Let me get the code running as part of master and in the nightly testing, then we can discuss the specific failures.
Apr 12 10:06:19 <Sage> X-Fade: well if vendor creates a core repository that isn't same as meego then all bets are of I guess. I think vendor is only required to have meego compliance packages.
Apr 12 10:06:20 <X-Fade> And not have it break on device.
Apr 12 10:06:33 <saidinesh5> basically I can maintain the things if you can tell me wat to do though
Apr 12 10:06:48 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: so you want a repo only with compliance package group? ..
Apr 12 10:06:49 <Sage> X-Fade: So I guess all UX specific stuff is something that isn't required from vendor.
Apr 12 10:06:55 <saidinesh5> oh so you want the code cleanups to be done for the master merging?
Apr 12 10:07:08 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: Well, I just want something which actually makes sense.
Apr 12 10:07:46 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: I just want that devices shipping 1.2 can actually use community apps. And only have the ones visible which actually work.
Apr 12 10:08:04 <pohly> No, let's merge first and then fix it. I think it won't break anything unless enabled, so I can release 1.2 without waiting for Akonadi fixes, if necessary.
Apr 12 10:08:18 <X-Fade> Sage: So from my pov, the compliance spec should be MeeGo Core.
Apr 12 10:08:33 <X-Fade> Sage: And everything else is UX specific.
Apr 12 10:08:42 <saidinesh5> ohh okay, sure ...
Apr 12 10:08:43 <Sage> X-Fade: well, the problem is that in meego there is no way to distinguish the meego compliance in obs :(
Apr 12 10:08:49 <saidinesh5> so how long before 1.2 ?
Apr 12 10:08:53 <X-Fade> But now we have everything on one repo, I don't know how to differentiate.
Apr 12 10:09:24 <X-Fade> It is like the release management doesn't seem to work for real use cases?
Apr 12 10:09:33 <Sage> X-Fade: maybe checks agains patterns could be added. That community apps do not use anything out of the compliance/devel patterns? :)
Apr 12 10:10:17 <X-Fade> When we are seeing issues like this, how hard will all this be for potential vendors?
Apr 12 10:12:01 <saidinesh5> let me know about the details of the failing test cases,
Apr 12 10:12:02 <Sage> Well, vendor could have its own app store and repository cloned from meego. However adding community is another thing, but also not so interesting use case for vendor.
Apr 12 10:12:37 <timeless_w7ip> ~akonadi
Apr 12 10:12:38 <X-Fade> But if we want to be a reference, then we should show that it is not a mess :)
Apr 12 10:13:08 <Sage> X-Fade: true, but try to tell the people decising about these things that.
Apr 12 10:13:21 <X-Fade> Sage: And who are that :)
Apr 12 10:14:14 <Sage> I personally suggested that each hardware adaptation would have their own repository over a year ago but that idea was also not accepted. There is no need to have e.g. n900 specific packages on other devices than n900.
Apr 12 10:15:39 <X-Fade> I do wonder why we have verticals when you can't target them.
Apr 12 10:17:23 <Sage> "The MeeGo compliance program is designed to make sure things stay compatible, such that the devices supporting a particular MeeGo version can run the same software, and so that app developers know how to build software which will run across the family. Simply put, we want to make it possible for an application developer to write a MeeGo compliant application once and run it on any MeeGo compliant device." @ http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance
Apr 12 10:17:41 <Sage> X-Fade: ^ So no need because the compliance should take care of that. :)
Apr 12 10:18:14 <X-Fade> Sage: But why do we have a repo with a lot of packages which are out of the compliance :)
Apr 12 10:18:17 <Sage> X-Fade: my question is now that will community obs follow the meego compliance? :)
Apr 12 10:19:20 <dm8tbr> I wonder why there are no compliant devices
Apr 12 10:19:34 <dm8tbr> what are apps good for when there are no devices to run them on
Apr 12 10:19:50 <X-Fade> If we have to hand pick packages, then we might as well not even try..
Apr 12 10:21:56 <Sage> X-Fade: but in my opinion you are right. There should be repository that full fills the compliance and nothing more and if app compiles against that it should also work on all the platforms.
Apr 12 10:22:51 <Sage> and currently it is not possible to ensure that package compiles just against the compliance
Apr 12 10:23:16 <X-Fade> Sage: Yes, if you are able to pick up dependencies now which are outside the spec.
Apr 12 10:23:33 <Sage> :nod:
Apr 12 10:24:07 <lbt> Sage: yeah, lets call it "core" or something
Apr 12 10:24:23 <X-Fade> Oh wait, that is what we had before :)
Apr 12 10:24:23 <lbt> and move the non-compliant apps to ... I dunno... "Surrounds" or something
Apr 12 10:24:38 <lbt> like, say, "emacs"
Apr 12 10:25:14 <lbt> oh, wait, that's inconvenient for the core developers... lets do something else instead
Apr 12 10:25:43 <lbt> after all, their comfort matters more than their customers'
Apr 12 10:26:28 <Sage> In my opinion currently in MeeGo 1.2 the one repo for all is the best we can do if we don't want to start doing the checks about dependencies manually.
Apr 12 10:26:37 <X-Fade> What does the sdk do btw?
Apr 12 10:26:43 <X-Fade> What does it include?
Apr 12 10:26:44 <lbt> or you know.... automatically
Apr 12 10:27:04 <Sage> lbt: well that is ok by me if you can script it :)
Apr 12 10:27:27 <lbt> well, I don't know why but MeeGo is full of Luddites
Apr 12 10:27:38 <lbt> scripting is a dirty word
Apr 12 10:27:50 <Sage> automate it then ;)
Apr 12 10:27:58 <lbt> oh, wait... did that
Apr 12 10:28:19 <lbt> and like INT 11... no-one cared
Apr 12 10:28:32 <lbt> s/INT/IRQ/
Apr 12 10:28:33 <infobot> lbt meant: and like IRQ 11... no-one cared
Apr 12 10:31:59 <X-Fade> Building against the 1.2 repo and then needing to run the compliancy tool to check if all deps are withing spec is not what I think is a good solution.
Apr 12 10:35:18 <X-Fade> And building your GTK app for 1.2 seems easy now. Only you'll notice that it might not install on your device.
Apr 12 10:35:51 <X-Fade> Imagine the frustration when a developer finds out about that.
Apr 12 10:36:19 <timeless_w7ip> ?!
Apr 12 10:36:28 <timeless_w7ip> what the heck?
Apr 12 10:36:35 <Sage> X-Fade: ???
Apr 12 10:36:46 <timeless_w7ip> x-fade: is this stuff that if i tried to update the mxr.meego.com/repo.meego.com root i'd suddenly get?
Apr 12 10:36:50 <X-Fade> Sage: gtk2 and gnome is in 1.2 repo too.
Apr 12 10:36:51 <timeless_w7ip> (including gtk?)
Apr 12 10:37:16 <timeless_w7ip> fwiw, i'm working on improving the pageload performance for that repo
Apr 12 10:37:22 <timeless_w7ip> i hope to finish it today/tomorrow
Apr 12 10:37:32 <timeless_w7ip> and then i'll go back to figuring out why i hadn't cron'd updating it
Apr 12 10:37:36 <Sage> X-Fade: http://build.meego.com/package/show?package=gtk2&project=Trunk <- what is this then?
Apr 12 10:37:53 <Sage> ah
Apr 12 10:38:21 <Sage> X-Fade: but if users' app requires of gtk those are retrieved from the oss repository when installing the package from comminity repo.
Apr 12 10:38:54 <timeless_w7ip> such an app clearly shouldn't be compliant w/ meego..
Apr 12 10:38:57 <lbt> Sage: the community Apps will *only* (for now) depend on core
Apr 12 10:39:04 <X-Fade> Sage: The app manager isn't required to know about dependencies.
Apr 12 10:39:20 <lbt> not even other apps (useforbuild disabled)
Apr 12 10:39:35 <timeless_w7ip> lbt: good!
Apr 12 10:39:40 <X-Fade> lbt: Problem is, there is no core.
Apr 12 10:39:52 <lbt> X-Fade: indeed
Apr 12 10:39:56 <timeless_w7ip> ungood
Apr 12 10:40:12 <Sage> lbt: gtk2 is in the core because e.g. meego-lsb requires on it.
Apr 12 10:40:29 <timeless_w7ip> sage: and why does it?
Apr 12 10:40:39 <X-Fade> I look at http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.1.90/1.1.99.1.20110405.3/repos/oss/ia32/packages/i586/ and think... kitchensink.
Apr 12 10:40:45 <Sage> I have no idea, but currently it does and it is included to all images
Apr 12 10:41:05 <lbt> Sage: I was going to ask for the audit trail that justifies on a per-package basis, its inclusion in core
Apr 12 10:41:07 <lbt> Trunk
Apr 12 10:41:38 <lbt> X-Fade: the main problem is MeeGo's chief architect is building a distro
Apr 12 10:41:40 <Sage> I don't say that it is correctly in core but currently at least it is ;)
Apr 12 10:41:42 <timeless_w7ip> x-fade: awww, Firefox is missing!
Apr 12 10:41:50 <lbt> whereas all the customers want a product baseline
Apr 12 10:41:53 <Sage> timeless_w7ip: fennec-qt is there ;)
Apr 12 10:41:56 <timeless_w7ip> your kitchen sink is half empty!
Apr 12 10:42:03 <timeless_w7ip> and i bet seamonkey is missing too!
Apr 12 10:42:18 <timeless_w7ip> sage: but we could switch that for fennec-gtk? :)
Apr 12 10:42:37 <timeless_w7ip> aww, there's no openoffice either
Apr 12 10:42:42 <timeless_w7ip> you need a bigger sink :)
Apr 12 10:42:51 <Sage> lbt, X-Fade: as said I agree with you about the mess, but what can we do? Make more noise? :)
Apr 12 10:43:17 <lbt> Sage: ^^ that's the problem.... distro vs product baseline
Apr 12 10:43:36 <lbt> whilst the core RE team are more interested in the former than the latter...
Apr 12 10:43:43 <lbt> SOOL
Apr 12 10:43:45 <Sage> lbt: agreed
Apr 12 10:44:13 <lbt> hence http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/bof-fixing-meego-setting-open-vendor-ecosystem
Apr 12 10:44:14 <X-Fade> Well at least we have a 1470!! packages repo we can build against :)
Apr 12 10:44:58 <Sage> Long time ago the N900 specific repo was declined as it would have increased the amount of repositories and the work for RE IIRC.
Apr 12 10:45:14 <lbt> Sage: yeah... 'cos they don't automate....
Apr 12 10:45:24 <lbt> anyhow... I gotta go... bbiab
Apr 12 10:45:28 <lbt> sorry to duck out
Apr 12 10:45:54 <lbt> and auke missed it ... :D
Apr 12 10:45:59 <X-Fade> I wonder who we can talk to about this core vs kitchensink mess.
Apr 12 10:46:12 <Sage> X-Fade: MeeGo TSG?
Apr 12 10:46:20 <X-Fade> Sage: No.
Apr 12 10:46:32 <X-Fade> Sage: They approve or decline. They don't come with solutions.
Apr 12 10:46:35 <lbt> X-Fade: actually yes
Apr 12 10:46:47 <lbt> the problem is "Is MeeGo a distro"
Apr 12 10:46:52 <Sage> TSG should be most interested because this is about the vendors as well.
Apr 12 10:46:55 <lbt> the TSG need to set that direction
Apr 12 10:47:03 <lbt> it's either aimed at vendors
Apr 12 10:47:16 <lbt> or it's aimed at being another general purpose distro
Apr 12 10:47:19 <X-Fade> TSG is only decision maker when teams fail?
Apr 12 10:47:36 <lbt> it's also a sounding off place
Apr 12 10:47:51 <lbt> but come on.... it's an epic fail
Apr 12 10:48:00 <lbt> RE doesn't even engage
Apr 12 10:48:32 <lbt> it's rare to see arjan discuss anything on here
Apr 12 10:48:32 <Sage> If TSG doesn't point the direction, will anyone even consider this?
Apr 12 10:48:47 <lbt> bbiab
Apr 12 10:49:11 <X-Fade> Sage: RE/Architects should set direction, TSG needs to approve?
Apr 12 10:49:49 <X-Fade> Anyway as 1.2 is probably frozen by now, nothing will change.
Apr 12 10:49:50 <Stskeeps> even if we sized meego core down to a core, there'll always be libraries that won't be part of meego compliance
Apr 12 10:50:47 <X-Fade> Which leads us to the conclusion that we need to come  up with a hack for the next 6 months.
Apr 12 10:50:49 <Sage> Stskeeps: yes, but that kind of libraries should not be used to create meego compliant app. Or they should be provided with the app.
Apr 12 10:51:14 <Stskeeps> flag it on a post-check if it's compliant or not.. which is rougly ~= uses meego api
Apr 12 10:51:58 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: It also means that you can't really use OBS as a way to stop building non-compliant apps.
Apr 12 10:52:13 <X-Fade> Prevent building even.
Apr 12 10:52:27 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: we can prevent bad practices with rpmlint..
Apr 12 10:52:39 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: Sure, but then you have built it already.
Apr 12 10:52:52 <X-Fade> It is a lot more messy than having a missing dep.
Apr 12 11:36:46 <Viltapi> is it just me or is the meego.com api reeeally slow? my copypacs timeout most of the time
Apr 12 12:02:46 <ScriptRipper> X-Fade ping
Apr 12 15:03:08 <lbt> so my persistent windows support guys hung up when I asked if it was GPL and if I could have the source...
Apr 12 15:05:59 <gabrbedd> lbt: sounds like that guy didn't like your persistence.
Apr 12 15:06:35 <Aard> lbt: why are windows support guys calling you?
Apr 12 15:06:49 <lbt> Aard: fraud calls....  I got them to 1:30 the other day....
Apr 12 15:07:04 <lbt> leave them on hold whilst my laptop boots.... *really* slowly
Apr 12 15:07:08 <Aard> fraud calls? by offering windows support?
Apr 12 15:07:29 <lbt> yep... anti-virus... they get you to run a VNC like thing
Apr 12 15:07:43 <lbt> and then charge you $$$ to fix your PV
Apr 12 15:07:45 <lbt> PC
Apr 12 15:07:47 <Aard> :)
Apr 12 15:07:51 <Aard> nice business model
Apr 12 15:08:08 <lbt> at least that's an hour they weren't scamming someone else
Apr 12 15:58:55 <timeless_mbp> gabrbedd: hi btw, sorry, i know you tried to poke me earlier, but i'm incredibly distracted :)
Apr 12 15:59:37 <timeless_mbp> lbt; wow
Apr 12 15:59:56 <lbt> timeless_mbp: ?
Apr 12 16:00:08 <timeless_mbp> re scammers
Apr 12 16:00:08 <lbt> or just general awe?
Apr 12 16:00:12 <lbt> ah
Apr 12 16:00:17 * timeless_mbp is kinda lagged :)
Apr 12 16:00:42 <gabrbedd> timeless_mbp: Yesterday?  Bah... it's cool.  :-)
Apr 12 16:15:18 <timeless_mbp> fwiw, i should note that people have started triaging my meego bugs
Apr 12 16:46:52 <auke> lbt: what did I miss?
Apr 12 16:50:44 * auke reads scrollback o_O
Apr 12 16:51:56 * Stskeeps hopes the hotel doesn't mind him running mic2 on their connection..
Apr 12 16:52:19 <gabrbedd> *hotel hopes Stskeeps doesn't mind the wait
Apr 12 16:52:31 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: they have a surprisingily good connection here
Apr 12 16:52:47 <wmarone> Stskeeps: impressive, most hotel connections I use cost a bunch and barely work at all
Apr 12 16:53:13 <Stskeeps> wmarone: finland..
Apr 12 16:53:13 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 12 16:53:23 <gabrbedd> That is impressive...
Apr 12 16:53:28 <wmarone> ah right, things actually work over there :)
Apr 12 16:53:50 <auke> Stskeeps: what was that discussion all about earlier?
Apr 12 16:54:15 <gabrbedd> either that... or Stskeeps is hogging all the bandwidth and some poor guy can't even get enough to check his e-mail.
Apr 12 16:54:20 <gabrbedd> :-)
Apr 12 16:55:15 <Stskeeps> auke: which one of them? the one about meego and distro vs baseline? not sure why you got dragged into it other than you quit/rejoined :)
Apr 12 16:55:24 <auke> ahhh
Apr 12 16:55:42 <auke> well I do have a voice in what goes into MeeGo or not, lol
Apr 12 16:56:00 <auke> right now I'm about to shove systemd into meego :)
Apr 12 16:56:08 <timeless_mbp> stskeeps: got dinner plans?
Apr 12 16:56:08 <Stskeeps> for 1.3, i hope..
Apr 12 16:56:09 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 12 16:56:12 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp: not in helsink
Apr 12 16:56:13 <Stskeeps> i
Apr 12 16:56:14 <auke> Stskeeps: yep
Apr 12 16:56:24 <timeless_mbp> you're elsewhere in Finland? why? :)
Apr 12 16:56:26 <Stskeeps> auke: got a sketch/plan somewhere? am interested to see
Apr 12 16:56:34 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp: trying something different
Apr 12 16:56:46 <timeless_mbp> suit yourself ;-)
Apr 12 16:57:00 <auke> we've done a 2-week hackfest here with 2-3 people now and things are starting to work
Apr 12 16:57:11 <Stskeeps> cool
Apr 12 16:57:18 <auke> I'll write something up at the point where I'm happy with the completeness
Apr 12 16:57:35 <auke> we're still avoiding all the handset daemons
Apr 12 16:57:41 <Stskeeps> sounds sane
Apr 12 16:57:41 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 12 16:57:48 <auke> we're not doing (allowing) sysvinit compatibility
Apr 12 16:58:05 <Stskeeps> that's fine, really - i mean, do you still allow some kind of daemons to be added though?
Apr 12 16:58:07 <timeless_mbp> no compat is always good! :)
Apr 12 16:58:08 <auke> iow everything needs a systemd service file, no more init.d scripts
Apr 12 16:58:15 <Stskeeps> makes sense
Apr 12 16:58:44 <auke> yes daemons will be allowed when appropriate
Apr 12 16:59:04 <auke> I intend to heavily police addition of services though
Apr 12 16:59:59 <Stskeeps> everything is better than a huge rc.sysinit, though
Apr 12 17:00:52 <auke> fastinit is almost entirely gone already
Apr 12 17:01:17 <lamikr> auke what's the best thing in systemd compared to scripts in /etc/init.d  ?
Apr 12 17:01:25 <Stskeeps> lamikr: sanity? :>
Apr 12 17:01:41 <auke> lamikr: the fact that it doesn't have /etc/init.d
Apr 12 17:01:47 <auke> :)
Apr 12 17:02:00 <Stskeeps> auke: still, would be good to have this sketch in a OBS devel:* project or gitorious to see it evolving
Apr 12 17:02:14 <Stskeeps> unless you need contribution approval for that work :P
Apr 12 17:02:42 <lamikr> auke I hope not replaced with some perl scripts :-)
Apr 12 17:03:54 <auke> approval is not an issue - it's all open source already
Apr 12 17:04:31 <Stskeeps> so is uxlaunch and such gone too?
Apr 12 17:05:12 <auke> no, we'll leave uxlaunch in for the initial merge of systemd
Apr 12 17:05:16 <Stskeeps> k
Apr 12 17:05:27 <auke> it's too easy to leave it in - that part works reasonably well right now
Apr 12 17:06:21 <lamikr> That would be a nice thing if init.d rc,sysinit and uxlaunch could be unified to one thing. (for example to this systemd)
Apr 12 17:06:24 <lamikr> does systemd has some HA functionality like monitoring and restart of started processes if needed?
Apr 12 17:07:07 <auke> yes, which is one of the reasons why we're switching to systemd
Apr 12 17:08:49 <auke> well init.d and rc.sysinit are gone with systemd already
Apr 12 17:08:53 <lamikr> ok, then I see one good point for the switch... Need to stop now, unlike stskeeps with high end hotel connection, I have something like 1G connection from laptop via bluetooth...
Apr 12 17:09:04 <auke> uxlaunch is a 'minor hurdle' to doing things the right way
Apr 12 17:09:21 <auke> but managing the user session from within systemd is afaik not ready yet
Apr 12 17:09:34 <Stskeeps> auke: is there stuff to monitor process alive-ness? pinging and such
Apr 12 17:09:51 <auke> systemctl
Apr 12 17:10:00 <Stskeeps> k
Apr 12 17:10:19 <Stskeeps> i've seen really bizarre happenings on mobile devices with 'stuck' processes/need for process watchdogs so
Apr 12 17:10:47 <auke> http://pastebin.com/WGGFDv4S
Apr 12 17:10:49 <lbt> auke: systemd makes sense ... emacs (and a ton of other stuff) doesn't
Apr 12 17:11:17 <lbt> but no reason to pick on you other than to get you involved :)
Apr 12 17:13:36 <auke> http://pastebin.com/dg6WQeJt
Apr 12 17:13:49 <auke> ^^ output from 2 of the systemd commands
Apr 12 17:13:52 <Stskeeps> ah, nice
Apr 12 17:13:58 <auke> the second one shows time consumption
Apr 12 17:14:11 <auke> note, uxlaunch + desktop isn't accounted for by systemd
Apr 12 17:14:35 <auke> boot time is exactly the same with systemd as it was with sysvinit on my test box (18sec)
Apr 12 17:15:26 <lamikr> auke Can you paste also an example from the some kind of config file/launch script that systemd uses for launching some process like messagebus for example?
Apr 12 17:16:36 <gabrbedd> lbt: No!!! Don't take away my emacs!
Apr 12 17:17:10 <auke> lamikr: all of that is on the systemd wiki - http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-man/
Apr 12 17:17:24 <auke> systemd's documentation is pretty decent
Apr 12 17:23:35 <lamikr> auke Ok, I will try to check. Need now to switch from bus to train. Bye
Apr 12 17:27:08 <lbt> gabrbedd: heh ... would that be the emacs that builds against gtk?
Apr 12 17:28:11 * alterego wonders when he'll know if they'll accept his request for summit sponsorship
Apr 12 17:28:31 <alterego> Also wondering if it includes hotel costs
Apr 12 17:28:40 <GeneralAntilles> alterego: yes.
Apr 12 17:29:07 <alterego> GeneralAntilles: does that mean I need to select a hotel?
Apr 12 17:29:19 <alterego> Because I defered that option
Apr 12 17:29:39 <GeneralAntilles> Yes.
Apr 12 17:30:11 <alterego> crap,
Apr 12 17:30:18 * alterego quickly ammends submission
Apr 12 17:31:15 <gabrbedd> lbt: Yes.  Is GTK being dropped?
Apr 12 17:31:32 <alterego> They should really make these forms clearer.
Apr 12 17:31:43 <GeneralAntilles> Yes.
Apr 12 17:31:50 <GeneralAntilles> I emailed -community about it after the form went live.
Apr 12 17:31:53 <GeneralAntilles> But the form doesn't indicate clearly.
Apr 12 17:32:17 <alterego> :/
Apr 12 17:32:36 <alterego> I'm guessing the airfares input box is really just airfares though
Apr 12 17:33:43 <GeneralAntilles> Yes
Apr 12 17:34:14 <timeless_mbp> it tried to be relatively clear that it was just airfare
Apr 12 17:34:29 <timeless_mbp> they should have said that if you're expecting sponsorship that you should reserve the primary hotel
Apr 12 17:34:31 <timeless_mbp> (regency?)
Apr 12 17:34:37 <timeless_mbp> but oh well
Apr 12 17:34:48 <gabrbedd> lbt: Anyway, I was under the impression that GTK was here to stay... and having Emacs in a repo makes my life lots easier.  :-)
Apr 12 17:35:01 * timeless_mbp slaps gabrbedd with a trout
Apr 12 17:35:15 <gabrbedd> lbt: Would be awesome if we could get kcachegrind... but I won't go there.  :-)
Apr 12 17:35:43 * gabrbedd breads the trout and fries it and shares it with timeless_mbp 
Apr 12 17:35:50 <timeless_mbp> thanks!
Apr 12 17:35:52 * timeless_mbp is starving
Apr 12 17:36:01 <timeless_mbp> we're waiting for some images to be built before we can get dinner
Apr 12 17:36:31 <gabrbedd> timeless_mbp: curious, tho... why the slap?
Apr 12 17:36:33 <lbt> gabrbedd: the point is to make it easier to add things to a useable MeeGo distro / repo
Apr 12 17:36:33 <gabrbedd> :-p
Apr 12 17:36:42 <timeless_mbp> the gtk/emacs stuff
Apr 12 17:36:47 <lbt> why can't you have kcachegrind in core?
Apr 12 17:37:35 <gabrbedd> lbt: I don't see how removing GTK+ and emacs makes it easier to add usable things to MeeGo... you'll have to connect the dots for me.
Apr 12 17:37:45 <gabrbedd> lbt: Doesn't kcachegrind depend on KDE ?
Apr 12 17:38:04 <lbt> yes
Apr 12 17:38:07 <gabrbedd> timeless_mbp: Don't be a hater! :-)
Apr 12 17:38:58 <timeless_mbp> :)
Apr 12 17:39:22 <gabrbedd> I can understand keeping KDE out of MeeGo Core... but removing GTK floors me.  (and I'm no gtk fanboi, either)
Apr 12 17:39:27 <lbt> gabrbedd: my position is that meego core should be minimal and QA there should focus on the part of meego needed to meet vendor requirements
Apr 12 17:39:46 <lbt> then there should be a community managed 'distro'
Apr 12 17:39:56 <lbt> with emacs/kde etc available
Apr 12 17:40:10 <lbt> which would be completely ignored by core
Apr 12 17:40:24 <lbt> unless we also get them to put their tools in it
Apr 12 17:40:33 <lbt> and eat their own dogfood
Apr 12 17:40:53 <lbt> (ie make the OS that they want to use be subject to the core/vendor interface)
Apr 12 17:41:11 <gabrbedd> lbt: emacs moved to community repo FULL ACK
Apr 12 17:41:17 <gabrbedd> lbt: GTK+, not so much
Apr 12 17:41:28 <lbt> fair
Apr 12 17:41:59 <lbt> I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned gtk - I'm not sufficiently aware of the position
Apr 12 17:42:26 <lbt> I thought it was on the way out ... dunno
Apr 12 17:42:56 <lbt> \o/
Apr 12 17:43:06 <lbt> err wrong window
Apr 12 17:43:11 <lbt> but \o/ anyhow :)
Apr 12 17:43:48 <gabrbedd> Well, if MeeGo is a platform were you really need to rewrite everything for the platform...
Apr 12 17:44:02 <gabrbedd> Then why not just rewrite it for Android or something?
Apr 12 17:46:47 <gabrbedd> So, removing things like GTK+, IMHO, removes one of MeeGo's advantages -- and might be game over for our organization.
Apr 12 17:48:24 <gabrbedd> However, I'm encountering this point-of-view a lot in the MeeGo community... and it kind of troubles me.
Apr 12 17:48:54 <gabrbedd> Porting and maintaining apps to MeeGo is plain hard enough without deleting them from Core.
Apr 12 17:49:05 <gabrbedd> </soapbox>
Apr 12 18:09:09 <momesana> Hi
Apr 12 18:09:33 <momesana> I've just installed 2GB of ram in my WeTab running MeeGo which I installed the day before yesterday
Apr 12 18:09:43 <momesana> and it still tells me I have about 8xx mb of ram
Apr 12 18:10:01 <auke> what does `free` say?
Apr 12 18:10:07 <momesana> the same
Apr 12 18:10:11 <momesana> I was reffering to free -m
Apr 12 18:10:40 <auke> then the kernel is not configured to support more than 1gb of memory, or the memory is not visible to the kernel
Apr 12 18:10:41 <momesana> I tried zcat /proc/config.gz | grep HIGHMEM4G but realized they haven't enabled the config.gz option
Apr 12 18:10:47 <auke> does the bios report 2gb?
Apr 12 18:10:56 <momesana> that is CONFIG_IKCONFIG_PROC
Apr 12 18:11:00 <auke> a copy of the config is in /boot/
Apr 12 18:11:04 <momesana> auke: I can't see it in the bios
Apr 12 18:11:13 <momesana> let me boot it up and look
Apr 12 18:11:36 <momesana> I've looked for that in the bios in vain
Apr 12 18:11:48 <momesana> there isn't any information about the ram size
Apr 12 18:12:14 <momesana> but let me boot into MeeGo again
Apr 12 18:13:03 <momesana> takes an eternity to boot. What are we using? SysVInit?
Apr 12 18:13:21 <auke> currently, yes
Apr 12 18:13:34 <momesana> hm
Apr 12 18:14:26 <momesana> I wonder what it takes to get system d running on it
Apr 12 18:14:32 <gabrbedd> momesana: is this a new or old install of MeeGo?  If it's old... clean out /tmp and it'll boot faster.
Apr 12 18:14:38 <momesana> new
Apr 12 18:14:48 <momesana> ok
Apr 12 18:15:12 <momesana> btw, there is a terminal provided but no virtual keyboard to type in it
Apr 12 18:15:41 <momesana> is there a solution or shall I hack together an own terminal emulator?
Apr 12 18:16:04 <auke> momesana: we're working on converting meego to systemd, you might want to wait for that instead :)
Apr 12 18:16:12 <gabrbedd> momesana: You'll need a USB keyboard or something.
Apr 12 18:16:17 <auke> but, it won't be faster per se
Apr 12 18:16:35 <gabrbedd> momesana: The virtual keyboard only supports Qt apps, pretty much.
Apr 12 18:16:55 <momesana> well, how about getting out a Qt based terminal
Apr 12 18:17:00 <momesana> shouldn't be too difficult
Apr 12 18:17:53 <momesana> One question, if I take a simple Qt based app and then click a QLineEdit or QTextEdit ... will it automatically popup the virtual keyboard?
Apr 12 18:17:54 <gabrbedd> momesana: I (personally) would rather a button or something where a virtual keyboard pops out and will work for anything.  (like Win7)
Apr 12 18:18:05 <gabrbedd> momesana: Yeah, it's supposed to.
Apr 12 18:18:44 <gabrbedd> momesana: I've even seen it work with the GTK-based terminal on the netbook UX
Apr 12 18:19:35 <momesana_> seems like I was disconnected
Apr 12 18:19:49 <momesana_> so will the virtual keyboard automatically popup when I use a Qt based application?
Apr 12 18:20:22 <gabrbedd> yes
Apr 12 18:20:35 <momesana_> good to know
Apr 12 18:20:35 <gabrbedd> momesana: I (personally) would rather a button or something where a virtual keyboard pops out and will work for anything.  (like Win7)
Apr 12 18:20:41 <momesana_> damn, is that xterm?
Apr 12 18:20:44 <gabrbedd> momesana: I've even seen it work with the GTK-based terminal on the netbook UX
Apr 12 18:20:51 <pvuorela> momesana_: default qt style requires a click on focused text entry to request virtual keyboard (or software input panel as qt calls those).
Apr 12 18:20:52 <gabrbedd> yeah, that's xterm
Apr 12 18:23:13 <momesana_> ok, back to the ram issue.
Apr 12 18:23:23 <pvuorela> gabrbedd: if by button you mean just a keyboard sending x events or something, it will be limited in use.
Apr 12 18:23:23 <momesana_> just as I had assumed, HIGHMEM4G is not enabled
Apr 12 18:23:38 <momesana_> instead we have CONFIG_NOHIGHMEM=y
Apr 12 18:23:47 <pvuorela> and the meego virtual keyboard is getting gtk+ support too.
Apr 12 18:23:58 <momesana_> yeah, but well ... down with Gtk+
Apr 12 18:24:01 <momesana_> Qt is the way to go
Apr 12 18:24:49 <pvuorela> the more support in different apps the better.
Apr 12 18:25:28 <gabrbedd> pvuorela: Right... that's understood about it being limited.  But it's better than nothing.
Apr 12 18:25:50 <pvuorela> sure.
Apr 12 18:25:53 <momesana_> pvuorela: true.
Apr 12 18:26:16 <momesana_> pvuorela: yet, I would like to see Qt get a little more momentum
Apr 12 18:30:12 <mikhas> momesana_, that the whole app-dev facing API on MeeGo is basically Qt and stuff, how is that not enough momentum?
Apr 12 18:30:57 <momesana_> yeah, just afraid it might lose momentum since Nokia dropped MeeGo and thus also Qt
Apr 12 18:31:14 <mikhas> nah, dont be so pessimistic, that's my job already
Apr 12 18:32:04 <momesana_> :)
Apr 12 18:32:25 <mikhas> really, things will work out OK, eventually
Apr 12 18:33:09 <momesana_> I hope you are right
Apr 12 18:34:04 <mikhas> if you werent believing that yourself already, you wouldnt be on this channel ;-)
Apr 12 18:34:14 <mikhas> god, I sound like hte oracle now
Apr 12 18:35:11 <momesana_> :-D
Apr 12 18:36:10 <mikhas> bergie, oopsie - planet didnt like the image?
Apr 12 18:41:51 <Jhinta> hi , evry one need some help with kernel rouce
Apr 12 18:42:31 <Jhinta> my sdcard get mounted after cmdline and looking fo a way to fix this , ( desire hd )
Apr 12 18:42:34 <Jhinta> anyone
Apr 12 18:43:50 <auke> wait what where?
Apr 12 18:57:01 <bergie> mikhas: I guess we need to eliminate floats there ;-)
Apr 12 18:59:55 <gabrbedd> bergie: Whatever happened to kinder, gentler, softer floats?
Apr 12 19:03:09 <bergie> gabrbedd: no such things when aggregating contents from others ;-)
Apr 12 19:05:57 <gabrbedd> bergie: :-)
Apr 12 20:40:34 <alterego> can some one tell me why the check out date only has 20th or 21st in the room reservation?
Apr 12 20:41:13 <Stskeeps> check out? :P
Apr 12 20:41:16 <alterego> Oh it's room dependant ..
Apr 12 20:41:35 <alterego> I have to book a standard double queens room ..
Apr 12 20:42:05 <alterego> I'm confused ...
Apr 12 20:56:55 <alterego> They better not take anything out of my account :S
Apr 12 21:02:42 <DawnFoster> thiago: ping
Apr 12 21:08:03 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: there's a spreadsheet of first wave in Re: Grid for sessions at MeeGo Conf , from me
Apr 12 21:09:02 <Stskeeps> i think the communication broke down horribly along the way :)
Apr 12 21:10:17 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: yeah, I only saw the grid spreadsheet (rooms / times) - didn't see this other one with names
Apr 12 21:10:30 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: thanks - this is exactly what I needed
Apr 12 21:10:57 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: this is at least the first batch, seems like we don't have any sessions except thiago's marked and no mails sent out yet
Apr 12 21:11:27 <Stskeeps> marked as accepted, that is..
Apr 12 21:11:59 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: it gives us enough to start our sponsored travel decsions
Apr 12 21:12:07 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Apr 12 21:29:45 <timeless_w7ip> alterego: fwiw, the hotel room thing confused me yesterday
Apr 12 21:50:20 <alterego> timeless_w7ip: yeah, my problem is, I always seem to screw up my submissions somehow.
Apr 12 21:50:31 <alterego> That's why I missed Dublin :(
Apr 12 21:52:39 <timeless_w7ip> err, don't miss this time!
Apr 12 21:53:59 <alterego> Well, it's not my choice, hopefully my submission is all in order this time.
Apr 12 21:54:17 <alterego> It is now up to the gods to decide.
Apr 12 21:54:20 <alterego> Well, Dawn.
Apr 12 21:54:22 <alterego> :D
Apr 12 21:54:38 <DawnFoster> ha!
Apr 12 21:54:46 <alterego> ;)
Apr 12 21:54:54 <DawnFoster> I am but one member of the selection committee :)
Apr 12 21:55:07 <alterego> I know, I was just joking because I knew you were around :)
Apr 12 21:55:26 <DawnFoster> and to see if I was paying attention :)
Apr 12 21:56:38 * w00t_ bribes DawnFoster under the table to reject alterego :-p
Apr 12 21:56:46 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 21:56:52 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: ping, got a sec?
Apr 12 21:56:58 <alterego> tbh, I don't mind, I just don't want it to be my fault.
Apr 12 21:57:05 <alterego> I've missed every maemo and meego summit so far.
Apr 12 21:57:23 <alterego> If it wasn't for the Cambridge network me and vgrade have been doing I'd not have met anyone :)
Apr 12 21:57:47 * w00t_ has only been to Dublin
Apr 12 21:57:54 <w00t_> already booked for SF though
Apr 12 21:58:03 <alterego> Really? You've been around ages though :)
Apr 12 21:58:10 <alterego> I swear I remember you from 770 days
Apr 12 21:58:15 <w00t_> nope
Apr 12 21:58:19 <alterego> Oh :)
Apr 12 21:58:22 <w00t_> well
Apr 12 21:58:34 <w00t_> I sort of hung around for a while around the 800-810 times I *think*
Apr 12 21:58:42 <w00t_> but never really got interested or bought one until the n900
Apr 12 21:58:59 <w00t_> I always had a compulsion that I didn't need Yet Another Device (irony being that now I have too many)
Apr 12 22:00:16 * alterego checks to see if his osc setup still works
Apr 12 22:06:18 <DawnFoster> w00t_: nice try!
Apr 12 22:06:36 <w00t_> DawnFoster: but.. but.. the payment already left my bank account
Apr 12 22:06:45 <alterego> I have redundant hardware.
Apr 12 22:06:52 <alterego> I should probably get rid of some of it.
Apr 12 22:07:03 <alterego> But nothing current enough for me to use.
Apr 12 22:07:12 <alterego> Just old PC104 boards I got from my previous job.
Apr 12 22:07:22 <alterego> Loads of ACORN machines.
Apr 12 22:07:26 * w00t_ is soon to lose a netbook, going back to the office
Apr 12 22:07:40 <alterego> I lost my netbook ages ago :(
Apr 12 22:07:41 <w00t_> I have a laptop I want to sell at some point
Apr 12 22:07:49 <alterego> My gf stole it
Apr 12 22:07:52 <w00t_> then I'll be back to more reasonable levels of hardware excess
Apr 12 22:08:08 <alterego> What's the make/model/spec ?
Apr 12 22:08:30 <alterego> I'm actually really happy with my laptop, still don't have any inclination to upgrade and the model is 3 years old now ..
Apr 12 22:08:57 <alterego> I should probably fork out for a little more RAM at some point though.
Apr 12 22:09:04 <w00t_> sony vaio, I can't remember the model off the top of my head, iirc it's a dual (possibly quad) core 4gb/RAM setup, ~2 years old, I think
Apr 12 22:09:29 <alterego> Ah ,probably a little better than mine.
Apr 12 22:10:01 <alterego> I've got a nice shiny Dell XPS M1530 :) Core 2 Duo 2G RAM
Apr 12 22:10:24 <alterego> Nice nVidia 8600 GPU too
Apr 12 22:10:43 <alterego> (reminds me, really wanna get back into CUDA at some point)
Apr 12 22:13:32 <alterego> IS there something broken with the wiki?
Apr 12 22:13:48 <alterego> I can't login, it just redirects me to my profile page for meego.com
Apr 12 22:14:07 <w00t_> pretty sure there's a bug about that somewhere
Apr 12 22:14:10 <w00t_> there was, at least
Apr 12 22:14:21 <alterego> Yeah, is there a work around?
Apr 12 22:14:31 <w00t_> go to meego.com, login there, then go to the wiki
Apr 12 22:14:37 <alterego> Didn't work
Apr 12 22:14:42 <alterego> Logging out did it
Apr 12 22:14:53 <w00t_> SSO is a nightmare
Apr 12 22:14:58 <DawnFoster> that's my favorite bug
Apr 12 22:14:59 <w00t_> (as usual)
Apr 12 22:15:00 <DawnFoster> sigh
Apr 12 22:15:10 <DawnFoster> I have to do that about a dozen times a day
Apr 12 22:15:21 <DawnFoster> we haven't been able to track down the fix
Apr 12 22:15:41 <alterego> Heh
Apr 12 22:16:04 <alterego> Someone as done some really interesting typos on this page, so I thought I'd correct them ;)
Apr 12 22:16:11 * lbt mutters something about php
Apr 12 22:16:17 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 22:16:22 <alterego> Better not be praise :P
Apr 12 22:16:39 <lbt> the wiki does load balancing across 2 app servers .. session ping pong
Apr 12 22:17:14 <w00t_> lbt: it can be done, quite well
Apr 12 22:17:18 <lbt> so apparently the php solution is to set an upstream diversion cookie so the same session hits the same app server ...
Apr 12 22:17:28 <lbt> w00t_: so can hand coded assembler
Apr 12 22:17:36 <w00t_> there is a better way
Apr 12 22:17:45 <alterego> mysql backed session stores?
Apr 12 22:17:48 <w00t_> I can put you in touch with a sysadmin friend of mine who could tell you how
Apr 12 22:17:51 <w00t_> no
Apr 12 22:18:22 <lbt> w00t_: the php guys we have are good :)
Apr 12 22:18:40 <w00t_> we had a farm with ~9 webservers or something along those lines, with sessions freely migrated between them, without mysql, by the time he was done
Apr 12 22:19:17 <alterego> I'm just saying how I'd do it.
Apr 12 22:19:29 <alterego> But I don't use PHP
Apr 12 22:19:32 <w00t_> alterego: doesn't scale particularly well
Apr 12 22:19:37 <alterego> I'm a RoR man myself.
Apr 12 22:19:44 <lbt> alterego: really
Apr 12 22:19:46 <w00t_> especially not when your databases are (as ours were) already busy
Apr 12 22:19:49 <alterego> Yeah, I don't know much about super-duper-scalability tbh
Apr 12 22:19:59 <lbt> alterego: I may come begging
Apr 12 22:20:08 * lbt is packaging rails for Debian
Apr 12 22:20:12 <lbt> sid
Apr 12 22:20:13 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 22:20:23 <w00t_> lbt: anyway, do you want me to send him your way sometime?
Apr 12 22:20:24 <lbt> they have a new packaging system ... gem2deb
Apr 12 22:20:36 <lbt> w00t_: if he's interested in helping out... sure
Apr 12 22:20:38 * alterego shudders
Apr 12 22:20:51 <lbt> alterego: nah, it's nice
Apr 12 22:20:56 <w00t_> ok, will ping him when i see him next
Apr 12 22:21:00 <lbt> w00t_: ta
Apr 12 22:21:01 <alterego> the whole gem vs deb thing is a pain in my ass :)
Apr 12 22:21:13 <lbt> alterego: looks like it's becoming a bit saner
Apr 12 22:21:21 <alterego> Well, that's positive.
Apr 12 22:21:22 <lbt> which is why I'm bothering
Apr 12 22:21:31 <alterego> I'll have to look into that.
Apr 12 22:21:43 <lbt> I just the other day did a recursive 'gem2deb rails'
Apr 12 22:21:56 <alterego> sysadmin'ing a load of rails apps from various iterations of rails must be a nightmare.
Apr 12 22:22:00 <lbt> https://build.pub.meego.com/project/monitor?project=home%3Albt%3Arails
Apr 12 22:22:10 <alterego> Luckily I'm not that big and I keep everythign quite up to date myself.
Apr 12 22:22:34 <lbt> in a "holy mother of .... build deps" kinda way...
Apr 12 22:23:11 <alterego> Well, it's most people do the rails freeze approach, so you have a crap tonne of copies of the same libraries all of varying versions.
Apr 12 22:23:26 <lbt> I just need to write a ~>  to Depends: + Conflicts: now
Apr 12 22:23:52 <lbt> alterego: yeah ... I have a 5 line script and 'bundle' about 23 libraries...
Apr 12 22:25:08 <lbt> but I need to get RoR up and running to do the community promotion to Apps process
Apr 12 22:25:46 <alterego> Well if you need an experienced rails' dev I'm always around ;)
Apr 12 22:25:58 <lbt> neat - I'd appreciate that
Apr 12 22:26:15 <alterego> np
Apr 12 22:28:03 * alterego loves developing in Ruby :)
Apr 12 22:28:33 <alterego> And Rails' is such a joy to use.
Apr 12 22:30:45 <alterego> Looks like the search bar in the wiki is broken too ..
Apr 12 22:30:54 <alterego> buggy CSS
Apr 12 22:31:09 <lbt> I don't dare get involved
Apr 12 22:36:26 <DawnFoster> alterego: how is the search box broken? (worksforme)
Apr 12 22:36:50 <alterego> In my browser it renders below the main content
Apr 12 22:36:59 <alterego> So if you've got a lot of content, it's right at hte bottom.
Apr 12 22:37:02 <alterego> I'll take a screenshot.
Apr 12 22:37:06 <DawnFoster> weird
Apr 12 22:37:12 <DawnFoster> which broswer?
Apr 12 22:37:56 <DawnFoster> and example of a page that does it?
Apr 12 22:37:59 <alterego> Firefox 3.6.16
Apr 12 22:38:09 <alterego> The front page does it
Apr 12 22:38:22 <alterego> From what I can tell, it's like that on every page for me ;)
Apr 12 22:39:17 <alterego> http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/shared/meego-wiki-firefox-bug.png
Apr 12 22:40:57 <DawnFoster> weird
Apr 12 22:41:49 <DawnFoster> i'm not seeing that issue (firefox 4.0, safari or chrome)
Apr 12 22:41:52 <DawnFoster> what OS?
Apr 12 22:41:58 <alterego> Ubuntu 10.10
Apr 12 22:42:04 <alterego> Nothing special about my setup either.
Apr 12 22:42:19 <DawnFoster> must be some obscure css thing
Apr 12 22:42:46 <DawnFoster> sometimes displays just a little differently by OS.
Apr 12 22:42:59 <alterego> Anyone here particularly familiar with obs?
Apr 12 22:43:02 <DawnFoster> can you file a bug for it?
Apr 12 22:43:06 <alterego> Specifically using osc to build a package locally.
Apr 12 22:43:10 <alterego> I've forgotten how :(
Apr 12 22:43:17 <alterego> DawnFoster: yeah, doing it now.
Apr 12 22:43:18 * TSCHAKeee has never built an osc package locally
Apr 12 22:43:29 <lbt> alterego: ... a little
Apr 12 22:43:39 <lbt> try "osc build"
Apr 12 22:43:50 <alterego> I've forgotten the "osc build" command line :S
Apr 12 22:43:57 <lbt> try "osc build --help"
Apr 12 22:44:14 <lbt> actually try "osc --help" too sometime
Apr 12 22:44:23 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 22:44:36 <lbt> actually quite useful
Apr 12 22:44:51 <alterego> Yeah, not sure what to put in the REPOSITORY field ..
Apr 12 22:45:05 <lbt> very often it is 'standard'
Apr 12 22:45:09 <lbt> which project?
Apr 12 22:45:15 <alterego> meego-handset-dialer
Apr 12 22:45:32 <alterego> Oh wait,
Apr 12 22:45:36 <alterego> It's telling me what to use :D
Apr 12 22:46:17 <alterego> Hah, yeah, this is working now :D
Apr 12 22:46:36 <lbt> edit your ~/.oscrc too
Apr 12 22:46:45 <lbt> you can set the chroot
Apr 12 22:47:24 <alterego>  Can't seem to specify the architecture.
Apr 12 22:47:27 <lbt> also useful is to add certain things to the preinstall of a local build (like gdb)
Apr 12 22:47:32 <lbt> yeah, just add it
Apr 12 22:48:11 <lbt> osc build standard armv8el my.spec
Apr 12 22:48:41 <lbt> it defaults to host native
Apr 12 22:49:06 <alterego> Ah, got it
Apr 12 22:49:33 <alterego> Hurp, that didn't work either.
Apr 12 22:50:21 <lbt> c.obs ?
Apr 12 22:50:29 <alterego> Yeah
Apr 12 22:50:34 <alterego> Well, build.pub
Apr 12 22:51:07 <alterego> Oh, so armv7hl isn't a support architecture in obs?
Apr 12 22:52:03 <lbt> ask Stskeeps to explain it sometime
Apr 12 22:52:51 <lbt> we have schedulers which runs emulators which can manage different arch emulations. Then the prjconf sets gcc flags....
Apr 12 22:53:02 <lbt> it's all very complicated and not at all like perl
Apr 12 22:53:09 <alterego> Heh
Apr 12 22:53:28 <lbt> you need to match the arch of the repo you're targeting
Apr 12 22:53:36 <lbt> armv7el in your case
Apr 12 22:54:09 <alterego> So: osc build Project_DE_Trunk_Testing_standard armv7el meego-handset-dialer.spec
Apr 12 22:54:10 <lbt> what obj code it produces depends on that maze
Apr 12 22:54:11 <alterego> looks right?
Apr 12 22:54:23 <lbt> yes
Apr 12 22:55:01 <alterego> Which shockingly enough looks like it's working
Apr 12 22:55:45 <lbt> and barring kernel versions it uses the same binaries as the OBS
Apr 12 22:56:07 <alterego> Hmmm, it's complaining about a bunch of missing packages
Apr 12 22:56:25 <alterego> Well, it seems to be trying to download them and it's saying "not found at repo.pub.meego.com"
Apr 12 22:56:36 <lbt> yes.. that's not helpful
Apr 12 22:56:40 <lbt> it will work
Apr 12 22:56:47 <alterego> m'kay,
Apr 12 22:56:53 <lbt> it tries different places and lets you know what fails
Apr 12 22:57:04 <lbt> people often ^C
Apr 12 22:57:04 <alterego> Heh
Apr 12 22:57:22 <alterego> Well, I think I vaguely remember this from the last time ;)
Apr 12 22:57:34 <smoku> is closing bugs as WONTFIX without any explanation why a standard course of action in MeeGo?
Apr 12 22:57:37 * alterego makes notes this time
Apr 12 22:57:40 <lbt> me hits ^C at 16/332 ... too big
Apr 12 22:58:00 <lbt> smoku: deja vu ?
Apr 12 22:58:31 <smoku> lbt: yeah. I saw that in some other big project also
Apr 12 22:58:51 <lbt> nah.... never happen in meego...way too open for that... ;)
Apr 12 22:59:11 * lbt digs out his Mer logo for the MeeGo Summit.fi
Apr 12 22:59:20 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 22:59:53 <DawnFoster> smoku: can you send me a couple of links where that's happened?
Apr 12 23:00:14 <smoku> DawnFoster: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14195
Apr 12 23:00:16 <MeeGoBot> Bug 14195 nor, Medium, ---, peter.j.zhu, REOP, Touchscreen does not work in SDL fullscreen mode.
Apr 12 23:01:31 <smoku> DawnFoster: I already reopened it with a question, after peter <peter.j.zhu@intel.com> RESOLVED it as WONTFIX
Apr 12 23:01:52 <DawnFoster> do you have another example?
Apr 12 23:02:07 <ali1234> just fyi SDL has it's own touchscreen driver
Apr 12 23:02:08 <smoku> just this one
Apr 12 23:02:20 <DawnFoster> I can help poke people, but need to decide if this is an issue of educating one or 2 people or a persistent issue
Apr 12 23:03:34 <smoku> ali1234: very well. short "upstream bug" comment would be enough
Apr 12 23:03:48 <ali1234> if that's the case it's not even a bug
Apr 12 23:04:09 <DawnFoster> still deserves a comment with *why* it was marked as wontfix
Apr 12 23:04:10 <ali1234> anyway the actual bug is a different issue
Apr 12 23:04:28 <smoku> something not working is not a bug??  that's new :)
Apr 12 23:04:42 <ali1234> smoku: the touchscreen is working as a touchscreen?
Apr 12 23:04:50 <ali1234> cos that's what it sounds like
Apr 12 23:05:02 <ali1234> is it a bug if my keyboard doesn't work as a toaster too?
Apr 12 23:05:19 <smoku> ali1234: please read the description of the bug.
Apr 12 23:06:20 <ali1234> so you can't click anywhere except where the mouse pointer is when fullscreen?
Apr 12 23:06:28 <DawnFoster> feel free to ping me if you see other examples of bugs being closed as wontfix without some explanation.
Apr 12 23:06:57 <DawnFoster> I'm always happy to help
Apr 12 23:07:03 <ali1234> ie tapping anywhere sends a click event to where the mouse pointer is only
Apr 12 23:08:49 <smoku> ali1234: yes.
Apr 12 23:08:56 <smoku> ant it's not a bug? :)
Apr 12 23:09:20 <ali1234> that is different then
Apr 12 23:09:31 <ali1234> (and not entirely clear from first glance at the report)
Apr 12 23:10:07 <ali1234> if it was SDL's built in TS driver, you'd get click events where ever you tap but wouldn't see the mouse pointer moving
Apr 12 23:10:14 <smoku> DawnFoster: I will. but meego developers already discouraged me badly from even reporting bugs, so I don't have that many open...
Apr 12 23:10:21 <ali1234> well, assuming SDL had the correct calibration for the TS which it might not
Apr 12 23:10:21 <alterego> lbt: BuildService API error: can't verify packages due to lack of GPG keys
Apr 12 23:10:25 <alterego> :(
Apr 12 23:10:49 <DawnFoster> with specific examples of bad behavior, I can help fix things
Apr 12 23:11:09 <lbt> alterego: host is debian based?
Apr 12 23:11:14 <alterego> Yeah
Apr 12 23:11:17 <alterego> ubuntu 10.10
Apr 12 23:11:34 <smoku> DawnFoster: you already did. :-)
Apr 12 23:11:36 <smoku> thx
Apr 12 23:11:39 <ali1234> hey speaking of bad gpg keys on ubuntu 10.10 when are they going to fix the opensuse-keychain package?
Apr 12 23:11:50 <DawnFoster> I think people in the community would be shocked at the amount of time I spend educating people at Intel, arm twisting, and getting people to make better decisions :)
Apr 12 23:11:53 <ali1234> everytime i run an update i get a warning about expired keys
Apr 12 23:12:02 <lbt> osc build --no-verify ...
Apr 12 23:12:09 <alterego> Ah, yes
Apr 12 23:12:32 <alterego> lbt: thanks for helping me with my newbish questions ;)
Apr 12 23:12:51 <lbt> np
Apr 12 23:12:54 <ali1234> W: GPG error: http://download.opensuse.org ./ Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1270156083
Apr 12 23:13:01 * lbt builds RoR credit
Apr 12 23:14:56 <smoku> DawnFoster: yeah. but you know, that the real issue is that people bitching like me are 1/10 or maybe less... rest just don't bother and silently goes away
Apr 12 23:16:21 <DawnFoster> I know, but encourage people to bring things to my attention. I really can help with some of it.
Apr 12 23:16:33 <DawnFoster> the community is so huge that I don't catch everything.
Apr 12 23:16:37 <alterego> She's got a whip and everything.
Apr 12 23:16:57 <DawnFoster> and I know we have some issues with how certain people are handling bugs (I'm working on it)
Apr 12 23:17:10 <DawnFoster> alterego: ha! I wish - it might help on some days :)
Apr 12 23:17:23 <ali1234> someone who knows how to write bugzilla queries could do a search where the person who set WONTFIX didn't comment, and then start checking the bugs...
Apr 12 23:20:13 <ali1234> hmm... all that huge search interface and i can't even search by "number of comments = 0"?
Apr 12 23:20:24 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 23:20:32 <alterego> You'll have to do it manually then :P
Apr 12 23:20:43 <alterego> How many wontfix bugs are there? :D
Apr 12 23:21:03 <ali1234> 778
Apr 12 23:21:11 <DawnFoster> even number of comments = 0 won't get you there
Apr 12 23:21:36 <ali1234> sure it will, if it's wontfix and comments = 0, and closer != reporter
Apr 12 23:21:47 <DawnFoster> since someone usually left a comment at some point but not necessarily the closer
Apr 12 23:21:49 <ali1234> then by definition the closer did not give a reason
Apr 12 23:22:01 <ali1234> sure it won't get them all but it's a start
Apr 12 23:22:02 <DawnFoster> true, but you'd miss a huge chunk of them
Apr 12 23:24:48 <ali1234> here's one i just found: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10011
Apr 12 23:24:51 <MeeGoBot> Bug 10011 nor, Medium, ---, yong.y.wang, RESO WONTFIX, XF86WLAN keyboard shortcut does not work
Apr 12 23:31:04 <ali1234> i see a lot of bugs getting WONTFIX "there's no feature for that" - wouldn't it be more appropriate to make is WISHLIST of FEATURE or whatever it's called?
Apr 12 23:31:58 <MrBIOS> re
Apr 12 23:32:08 <DawnFoster> I've just updated the wiki process to specify that comments are mandatory for INVALID/WONTFIX/WORKSFORME
Apr 12 23:32:25 <DawnFoster> now, I'll poke a few people :)
Apr 12 23:33:16 <TSCHAKeee> huh, why is that one wontfix?
Apr 12 23:33:21 <TSCHAKeee> that one makes sense
Apr 12 23:33:43 <MrBIOS> is it possible to do an anonymous checkout of glibc from meego's trunk?
Apr 12 23:34:07 <ali1234> MrBIOS: sure, grab the source rpm?
Apr 12 23:34:18 <MrBIOS> donde?
Apr 12 23:34:40 <TSCHAKeee> grab the source rpm, and do an rpmbuild --rebuild
Apr 12 23:34:48 <MrBIOS> yes, source rpm from where?
Apr 12 23:35:08 <lbt> MrBIOS: unless this is a one-off hack ... I suggest using the OBS
Apr 12 23:35:14 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: Trunk is on build.meego.com
Apr 12 23:35:29 <gabrbedd> http://build.meego.com/project/show?project=Trunk
Apr 12 23:36:35 <ali1234> won't the OBS effectively just give you an unpacked copy of the srpm and not much else?
Apr 12 23:36:40 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: lbt may correct me... but there's no "anonymous checkout", as in access to revision history.  But you can download everything you need from the web interface.
Apr 12 23:37:12 <lbt> I think you can 'see' revisions
Apr 12 23:37:29 <lbt> but the OBS doesn't do version control
Apr 12 23:37:54 <gabrbedd> ali1234: Sort of.  He asked for "Trunk" and not one of the daily/weekly builds... and trunk in on build.meego.com
Apr 12 23:38:06 <ali1234> ok fair point
Apr 12 23:38:16 <lbt> you could fork it to c.obs too
Apr 12 23:38:27 <lbt> http://build.meego.com/package/source_history?package=glibc&project=Trunk
Apr 12 23:39:03 <gabrbedd> lbt: what is c.obs?
Apr 12 23:39:09 <gabrbedd> oh... community.
Apr 12 23:39:11 <gabrbedd> duh.
Apr 12 23:39:23 <MrBIOS> yeah, I got to http://build.meego.com/package/files?package=glibc&project=Trunk
Apr 12 23:39:29 <MrBIOS> but the tarballs aren't downloadable
Apr 12 23:40:21 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: Overview -> standard ->Go to download repository
Apr 12 23:41:04 <MrBIOS> not seeing 'standard'
Apr 12 23:41:05 <gabrbedd> The SRPMS are in src/
Apr 12 23:41:21 <gabrbedd> On the right under "Build Status"
Apr 12 23:41:31 <MrBIOS> got it
Apr 12 23:42:28 <MrBIOS> http://download.meego.com/live/Trunk/standard/src/glibc-2.11.90-23.40.src.rpm thanks
Apr 12 23:42:35 <MrBIOS> hm, there's also a glibc-x86 srpm there
Apr 12 23:42:38 <MrBIOS> but it's tiny
Apr 12 23:42:58 <ali1234> random question: is there any package management system that uses git repos instead of tarball + patches + control/spec?
Apr 12 23:43:31 <alterego> xterm?
Apr 12 23:43:34 <alterego> :)
Apr 12 23:43:47 <ali1234> well that was a random answer
Apr 12 23:44:11 <lbt> ali1234: .deb
Apr 12 23:44:25 <ali1234> hmm
Apr 12 23:44:33 <ali1234> ok let me ask another way, is there a distro that actually does this?
Apr 12 23:44:47 <ali1234> (99.9% of debs use quilt)
Apr 12 23:45:14 <lbt> a distro....  Mer ?
Apr 12 23:45:16 <lbt> http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/UsingGitorious
Apr 12 23:46:01 <lbt> my diagrams scare people
Apr 12 23:46:05 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: Do you mean a pkg mgmt system that uses git for the database?
Apr 12 23:46:09 <alterego> Yay, first refactoring of meego dialer compiles :)
Apr 12 23:46:14 <ali1234> ah this would explain why i thought you did a talk on this very subject
Apr 12 23:46:15 <gabrbedd> Or something to managet a distro?
Apr 12 23:47:09 <ali1234> gabrbedd: i mean a distro where "apt-get source ..." === "git clone ...", and sending patches upstream === "git format-patch"
Apr 12 23:48:04 <MrBIOS> gabrbedd, wrong person :)
Apr 12 23:48:12 <gabrbedd> ali1234: MrBIOS: sorry!
Apr 12 23:48:55 <ali1234> lbt: if i understand that diagram correctly it seems like exactly what i'm talking about
Apr 12 23:49:15 <lbt> ali1234: :)
Apr 12 23:49:32 <lbt> I simply detest the random patches crap
Apr 12 23:49:52 <lbt> but.... I have to admit that it got complex quickly
Apr 12 23:50:19 <ali1234> so, how about if it was integrated into OBS then? ;)
Apr 12 23:50:21 <gabrbedd> ali1234: Debian is headed in the direction you're talking about...
Apr 12 23:50:29 <gabrbedd> ali1234: And fedora /might/ be.
Apr 12 23:50:37 <lbt> I'm working on git-buildpackage
Apr 12 23:50:47 <lbt> and gbq-pq is the patch-queue
Apr 12 23:51:02 <lbt> which I actually debated porting to .spec today
Apr 12 23:51:10 <MrBIOS> is there a guide to getting meego nightly images on to a USB stick?
Apr 12 23:51:13 <lbt> working *with*, not on
Apr 12 23:51:26 <lbt> gbp-pq
Apr 12 23:51:33 <ali1234> MrBIOS: all meego images for x86 should be DD'd directly to USB stick
Apr 12 23:51:40 <MrBIOS> okay
Apr 12 23:52:04 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: Either put the DMC URL in your .ks file -- or just use the daily build .img's.
Apr 12 23:52:15 <lbt> http://honk.sigxcpu.org/projects/git-buildpackage/manual-html/gbp.man.gbp.pq.html
Apr 12 23:52:38 <MrBIOS> gabrbedd DMC?
Apr 12 23:52:43 <MrBIOS> DeLorian Motor Company?
Apr 12 23:53:15 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: Daily builds are published on download.meego.com.  Subscribe to meege-release ML to get the daily notices (and the URL's)
Apr 12 23:53:16 <MrBIOS> Disembodied Mummy Corporatists?
Apr 12 23:53:53 <gabrbedd> E.g. today's build is here http://download.meego.com/trunk-daily/builds/trunk/1.1.99.2.20110411.3/
Apr 12 23:54:15 <lbt> ali1234: http://vcs-pkg.org/
Apr 12 23:54:30 <ali1234> cool
Apr 12 23:55:05 <lbt> ali1234: I actually think my work in Mer was the most .... real
Apr 12 23:55:19 <gabrbedd> er... yesterday's.
Apr 12 23:55:34 <lbt> I used madduck's ideas and diagrams and built on them
Apr 12 23:55:48 <lbt> but it never matured
Apr 12 23:56:25 <ali1234> seems like trying to shoe-horn it into an existing package manager would make it too complex
Apr 12 23:56:33 <ali1234> hence my original question
Apr 12 23:57:13 <lbt> I only know git in any meaningful way
Apr 12 23:57:31 <lbt> so given that ... what would a git branch structure look like?
Apr 12 23:57:50 <ali1234> i don't know what you mean?
Apr 12 23:57:58 <gabrbedd> ali1234: Well, Git isn't a good tool for managing large binary blobs long-term.  And also pkg maint is a totally different workflow for normal app dev.
Apr 12 23:58:12 <lbt> a typical package has an upstream pristine tar
Apr 12 23:58:15 <ali1234> gabrbedd: no you miss the point, it's only for managing source
Apr 12 23:58:26 * gabrbedd goes pick up son from soccer...
Apr 12 23:58:38 <alterego> Now how to figure out how to do a merge request.
Apr 12 23:58:40 <lbt> the packager then manages a number of distro patches as well as some distro-only code
Apr 12 23:59:09 <lbt> eg maybe changing the hardcoded path for the config from /etc/sshd.conf to /etc/ssh/sshd.conf
Apr 12 23:59:25 <ali1234> lbt: well... if i ruled the world the first thing i'd do is start over from only using upstream source :)
Apr 12 23:59:28 <lbt> or fixing a bug that's not been accepted into an upstream release
Apr 12 23:59:40 <ali1234> then you'd have a branch called "upstream" that tracks.. upstream
Apr 12 23:59:43 <lbt> yeah, let me introduce you to ruby
Apr 12 23:59:47 <ali1234> and a branch with distro specific packages
Apr 12 23:59:55 <ali1234> *patches
Apr 13 00:00:06 <lbt> (at which point I suspect you'll start to use windows)
Apr 13 00:00:17 <ali1234> and then if someone wanted to fork *your* distro, then they'd have a third branch, and so on
Apr 13 00:01:05 <ali1234> i realise the idea may not be practical but there you go
Apr 13 00:01:23 <MrBIOS> most ideas aren't practical
Apr 13 00:01:27 <lbt> it's more naive than impractical
Apr 13 00:01:34 <lbt> I know... I've been there :)
Apr 13 00:01:38 <ali1234> yes, for sure
Apr 13 00:01:47 <ali1234> i've never made a distro of course
Apr 13 00:01:55 <lbt> yep.... that's the kicker
Apr 13 00:02:49 <ali1234> actually openwrt kind of works like this i think
Apr 13 00:03:27 <ali1234> they certainly keep all their packages in some kind of CVS
Apr 13 00:04:45 <ali1234> https://dev.openwrt.org/browser/packages
Apr 13 00:05:10 <ali1234> they just commit patches as seperate files :(
Apr 13 00:06:42 <lbt> *g*
Apr 13 00:07:26 <lbt> gbp-pq at least allows the patches to be vcs'ed
Apr 13 00:07:42 <lbt> which allows for retreival later
Apr 13 00:08:06 <lbt> and rational handling (cherry picking, re-ordering, merging etc)
Apr 13 00:08:12 <lbt> anyhow... late
Apr 13 00:08:14 <lbt> bed ->
Apr 13 00:08:16 <MrBIOS> hm, so I successfully DD'ed an image to the USB stick, however it does not appear to be bootable
Apr 13 00:09:03 <ali1234> MrBIOS: you have to dd to the device not the first partition
Apr 13 00:09:25 <MrBIOS> I did
Apr 13 00:09:28 <MrBIOS> to the device
Apr 13 00:09:32 <MrBIOS> I have an lvm volume there
Apr 13 00:09:48 <MrBIOS> volume name looks right
Apr 13 00:10:21 <alterego> My fans don't like local obs arm builds :D
Apr 13 00:10:22 <MrBIOS> meego-core- blah blah with an isolinux directory and LiveOS dir
Apr 13 00:10:38 <ali1234> don't know then, that sounds OK
Apr 13 00:10:50 <MrBIOS> ali1234 should it be LVM?
Apr 13 00:10:52 <MrBIOS> seems wrong
Apr 13 00:10:58 <MrBIOS> where's the boot partition? I don't see one
Apr 13 00:13:09 <ali1234> i don't know... i haven't used an image recently
Apr 13 00:13:43 <alterego> Crap, I'm editing the wrong version of the dialer ..
Apr 13 00:14:53 <MrBIOS> ali1234 hm okay, it's iso9660
Apr 13 00:15:10 <ali1234> MrBIOS: yes, it's a hybrid ISO
Apr 13 00:15:10 <MrBIOS> perhaps this BIOS doesn't like booting  iso9660 from USB stick
Apr 13 00:15:33 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: The image is to be installed on a USB stick or a CD-RW... so it'll work for both.
Apr 13 00:15:40 <MrBIOS> I understand that
Apr 13 00:15:49 <MrBIOS> it just doesn't seem to ever be booting
Apr 13 00:15:55 <MrBIOS> I don't even get the initial isolinux text line
Apr 13 00:16:21 <gabrbedd> MrBIOS: you should get a "screen"
Apr 13 00:16:43 <gabrbedd> What image did you download?
Apr 13 00:16:45 <MrBIOS> I get nada, besudes the BIOS' flashing cursor
Apr 13 00:16:50 <MrBIOS> besides
Apr 13 00:17:01 <MrBIOS> 20110330.3
Apr 13 00:17:02 <gabrbedd> And are you doing this on a laptop or one of those monsters you're working on?
Apr 13 00:17:12 <MrBIOS> gabrbedd, totally normal intel atom desktop board
Apr 13 00:17:30 <MrBIOS> retail, not a dev board with a funky kernel
Apr 13 00:17:32 <MrBIOS> this is a foxconn
Apr 13 00:17:47 <MrBIOS> with a funky BIOS rather, not kernel
Apr 13 00:18:32 <gabrbedd> did you download the netbook image?
Apr 13 00:19:17 <MrBIOS> I downloaded the file named meego-core-ia32-base-1.1.99.0.20110330.3.img
Apr 13 00:21:03 <ali1234> did you sync before removing the USB stick?
Apr 13 00:21:34 <ali1234> cos according to what i just read, the boot things are at the end of the image
Apr 13 00:21:34 <gabrbedd> FWIW, my best guess is it's a bad burn... something happened wrong in writing it to the flash drive.  I suggest trying again and waiting an extra 30-60 secs after it completes --- or burn the image to a CD-RW and boot that instead.
Apr 13 00:21:35 <MrBIOS> I did :)
Apr 13 00:21:53 <ali1234> i always sync 3 times
Apr 13 00:21:54 <MrBIOS> ali1234, I made sure to sync.
Apr 13 00:22:09 <gabrbedd> I've run into some flash drives that are flaky... no matter how many times you sync.  You gotta give it some "space."
Apr 13 00:22:17 <gabrbedd> Other drives work sane.
Apr 13 00:22:26 <MrBIOS> blah
Apr 13 00:22:31 <MrBIOS> so easy
Apr 13 00:22:35 <MrBIOS> and yet...
Apr 13 00:22:36 <gabrbedd> 2nd best guess is that meego-core isn't the one to try.  Try meego-netbook instead.
Apr 13 00:25:13 <MrBIOS> the bootable flag wasn't on on that block device, so I flipped that bit with fdisk, and now it works.
Apr 13 00:25:22 <MrBIOS> now I get the meego grub screen
Apr 13 00:25:29 <ali1234> hmm bug?
Apr 13 00:25:36 <gabrbedd> Cool!  I'ts not grub, tho.
Apr 13 00:25:39 <ali1234> the ISO should include partition table
Apr 13 00:26:02 <MrBIOS> gabrbedd, whatever it is, the boot menu. it looks like grub :)
Apr 13 00:26:09 <ali1234> it's syslinux
Apr 13 00:26:18 <MrBIOS> gotcha
Apr 13 00:26:34 <gabrbedd> and when you install to harddrive... it's extlinux.
Apr 13 00:26:46 <gabrbedd> Seems pedantic now -- but later on you'll thank us.  :-)
Apr 13 00:26:53 <MrBIOS> understood
Apr 13 00:26:54 <ali1234> someone told be they're the same thing now
Apr 13 00:27:43 <ali1234> technically the ISO is isolinux i guess
Apr 13 00:27:57 <MrBIOS> yeah I saw the isolinux directory, but isolinux is a component of syslinux
Apr 13 00:28:01 <MrBIOS> so pedants delight?
Apr 13 00:28:08 <gabrbedd> ali1234: more or less yes... they have different binaries that are specific to the file system you're booting from.
Apr 13 00:30:54 <MrBIOS> does anybody here know much about the atom-specific glibc patches?
Apr 13 00:30:59 <MrBIOS> I see a handful of them
Apr 13 01:53:35 <TSCHAKeee> you know
Apr 13 01:54:25 <TSCHAKeee> it really sucks sometimes when I read messages from engineers asking things like "How do we get accelleration up on the Oak Trail?" When I, with all the want in the world, can never get the fucking hardware.
Apr 13 01:54:34 <TSCHAKeee> no matter how much cash i shove in someone's face.
Apr 13 01:54:41 <TSCHAKeee> that shit gets really old
Apr 13 02:12:19 <GeneralAntilles> It's not what you know, but who!
Apr 13 02:21:24 <ali1234> i've been saying for years that a big reason apple is so successful is because you can actually buy their stuff in a shop unlike nearly everything else which you hear announced and then never see again
Apr 13 02:22:04 <ali1234> for example, every tablet that supposedly existed before the ipad
Apr 13 02:29:48 <GeneralAntilles> ali1234: well, that, and they look good doing it.
Apr 13 02:32:20 <Debolaz> And iPhone proved to the public that the concept worked first.
Apr 13 02:33:14 <Debolaz> The iPad is, to the general public, an iPhone with a lot bigger screen. They know the iPhone is awesome, so they trust that the iPad will be awesome too.
Apr 13 02:34:06 <Debolaz> But the ability to actually see the product first hand is of course a very important factor too.
Apr 13 02:36:39 <ali1234> none of that matters if you can't buy the damn thing
Apr 13 02:36:54 <ali1234> apple have done well by filling the demand created by others
Apr 13 02:37:41 <ali1234> microsoft have been saying tablets are the next big thing for about 10 years now
Apr 13 02:37:47 <ali1234> but they never delivered
Apr 13 02:37:58 <ali1234> now it's too late
Apr 13 02:38:40 <ali1234> friend of mine got a bunch of free microsoft software back at university for participating in a microsoft handwriting recognition test for tablet PCs... that was back in 1999
Apr 13 02:39:32 <ali1234> admittedly that probably turned up in windows mobile at some point
Apr 13 02:39:48 <ali1234> but even those devices were specialty
Apr 13 02:40:13 <ali1234> couldn't even get screen protectors for them in a highstreet store... people would look at it and go "what's that?"
Apr 13 02:44:20 <ali1234> that's the win for microsoft from nokia too: nokia can get devices in stores in a way the others can't
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 13 02:59:57 2011