**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 01 02:59:58 2011
May 01 03:24:42 <gabrbedd> akk: Yes, zypper is an RPM equiv. of apt-get.
May 01 03:24:46 <gabrbedd> night all....
May 01 03:46:52 <mikeleib> akk: it was a bit of a jab-- I develop for MeeGo on MeeGo.  I advocate others do the same.  So installing qt-creator is as easy as using zypper, the package manager MeeGo uses
May 01 03:50:22 <akk> Ah, I see.
May 01 03:51:16 <akk> I don't think that'll work for me right now -- my ExoPC seems really unstable under MeeGo, crashes quite a lot.
May 01 03:53:52 <akk> It would make testing easier, for sure, once things get more stable.
May 01 03:59:31 <mikeleib> I've had some stability issues as well on my ExopC.  I think the last update I had from Trunk caused things to get more stable, but I can't honestly remember
May 01 03:59:41 <mikeleib> on my s10, it's pretty solid.
May 01 04:00:40 <akk> I tried downloading trunk this morning but it didn't boot at all.
May 01 04:00:56 <akk> Figured I'd wait a few days 'til I heard somebody here say "hey, today's build is great" and then grab it. :)
May 01 04:22:42 <akk> Are apps always fullscreen on the ExoPC? I'm following http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.1/Creating_Hello_World but the app is fullscreen no matter what size I make the window.
May 01 04:23:19 <akk> I'm using meego-core-ia32-trunk for the target.
May 01 04:23:21 <w00t_> yes
May 01 04:23:39 <w00t_> tablets only have one window at a time open
May 01 04:23:50 <akk> ah, ok. Then I'll stop trying to resize things. :)
May 01 04:24:01 <w00t_> :-)
May 01 04:25:48 <akk> Though it's actually not quite fullscreen ... it's fullscreen except for a rectangle along the top where the background and top bar show through.
May 01 04:27:17 <akk> Starting from about 1/3 from the left in X. Some sort of display bug, I guess.
May 01 07:35:38 <chridhs> Hello
May 01 07:35:47 <chridhs> Whats up?
May 01 07:36:12 <chridhs> Wow this place is full of people talking and conversing
May 01 07:37:21 <Fargh> what did you expect at 3oclock in the morning ?
May 01 08:02:07 * dm8tbr yawns
May 01 09:58:09 * lcuk jumps out of bed, somersaults over to the coffee machine, ascends the stairs without touching any, swings around the banister and plants feet firmly infront of the mirror to admire his new hairdo and shaped beard
May 01 09:58:53 <thiago_home> and all of that because of the coffee?
May 01 09:59:09 <lcuk> the coffee is still brewing
May 01 10:02:02 * lcuk will enjoy it once it is ready though
May 01 10:02:09 <lcuk> thiago_home, having a lazy Sunday?
May 01 10:11:26 <thiago_home> yeah
May 01 10:16:00 <lcuk> thiago_home, I was looking at qt-creator and a default qt project that runs on desktop
May 01 10:16:06 <lcuk> just a small one
May 01 10:16:28 <lcuk> how do I make that project then instead of running in normal desktop become targetted for meego?
May 01 10:19:30 <thiago_home> dunno
May 01 10:19:36 <thiago_home> ask maurice
May 01 10:19:47 <lcuk> MauriceK you mean?
May 01 10:19:52 <thiago_home> yes
May 01 10:19:56 <lcuk> if so, ping :D
May 01 10:21:14 <lcuk> thiago_home, I saw a thing yesterday of you saying 60fps overlay drawing but was not sitting reading conversation, what was it wrt to?
May 01 10:21:17 * Stskeeps has success teaching his wife qml with qt components
May 01 10:21:42 <lcuk> :D Stskeeps
May 01 10:21:44 <thiago_home> scene graph
May 01 10:21:56 <lcuk> nice
May 01 10:22:06 <alterego> Stskeeps: did you see the screenshots?
May 01 10:22:13 <Stskeeps> alterego: yes, most excellent :)
May 01 10:22:24 <lcuk> alterego, no where?
May 01 10:22:24 <Stskeeps> should post them to the thread too
May 01 10:22:43 <alterego> I was going to yeah.
May 01 10:23:01 <alterego> lcuk: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/meego/screenshots/handset/
May 01 10:23:45 <lcuk> awesome alterego
May 01 10:24:07 <alterego> thanks :)
May 01 10:24:41 <lcuk> I clicked one of them yesterday the webserver was not letting me see them, but they look great now I can
May 01 10:25:19 <lcuk> alterego, what were you using for screenshots?
May 01 10:25:40 <alterego> Still obviously a lot of work to do, but it's a good start.
May 01 10:25:41 <alterego> Yeah, the most recent image, I copied it a bit differently and it lost permissions.
May 01 10:25:45 <alterego> Anyhow, bbiam
May 01 10:25:55 <alterego> lcuk: cp /dev/fb0 screenshot.raw
May 01 10:26:00 <alterego> then ffmpeg
May 01 10:26:13 <alterego> Just like the beagle board wiki page relly.
May 01 10:27:47 <lcuk> hmm I wonder how we could simplify that and add a screenshot tool
May 01 10:27:56 <lcuk> didn't hildon include one directly in the WM?
May 01 10:31:12 <thiago_home> yeah
May 01 10:31:59 <dm8tbr> can't you register key combinations with init?
May 01 10:32:21 <dm8tbr> just run a shell script that does the cat /dev/fb and the ffmpeg part
May 01 10:32:21 <thiago_home> I don't think so
May 01 10:32:23 <thiago_home> you can with X
May 01 10:32:51 <dm8tbr> then in X :)
May 01 10:33:55 <dm8tbr> or how about a nice QML app that allows you to set a delay and a series of screenshots
May 01 10:37:43 <lbt> Stskeeps: spooky ... Denise was talking about doing that last night
May 01 10:38:18 <Stskeeps> lbt: seems like if you know basics of html, qml's pretty straightforward
May 01 10:38:39 <lbt> *nod* ... the css side too
May 01 10:39:02 <dm8tbr> if someone tells me how to compile qt mobility so I can develop on my laptop...
May 01 10:39:22 <dm8tbr> or if someone tells me how to set up qt creator to allow deploying of QML to a device
May 01 10:39:26 * dm8tbr failed at both
May 01 10:39:44 <Stskeeps> lbt: and in that case, steer clear of the designer
May 01 10:39:45 <Stskeeps> :P
May 01 10:41:18 <dm8tbr> mh, or is it that for device deployment I'd need to wrap the QML in a Qt project?
May 01 10:41:41 <Stskeeps> i think so, considering that qmlviewer isn't supposed to be more than a devel tool
May 01 10:43:42 <thiago_home> dm8tbr: for full deployment, yes
May 01 10:43:49 <thiago_home> qmlviewer isn't always deployed
May 01 10:44:57 <dm8tbr> thiago_home: honestly, WHY even give the option to make a QML project then if you need to wrap it in Qt anyway. Or why not automate the wrapping part...
May 01 10:45:22 <thiago_home> it should be done eventually
May 01 10:45:28 <thiago_home> and there should be a runtime runner
May 01 10:46:00 <alterego> There pretty much is
May 01 10:46:10 <alterego> anyway, we have meego-qml-viewer
May 01 10:46:15 <thiago_home> not secure
May 01 10:46:18 <dm8tbr> this plus the fact that I can't even develop for qt-mobility on my desktop makes this look half-baked at best
May 01 10:46:39 <thiago_home> the simulator should work on the desktop
May 01 10:47:44 <alterego> dm8tbr: something wrong with your desktop then :P
May 01 10:48:01 <dm8tbr> alterego: no, qt mobility not included in the SDK
May 01 10:48:07 <dm8tbr> http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTSDK-419
May 01 10:48:38 <alterego> Oh, well just install the dev packages for your distro then ..
May 01 10:49:17 <alterego> I might try and teach my bg qml at somepoint, but she gets bored easily :D
May 01 10:49:34 <alterego> s/bg/gf/
May 01 10:49:36 <infobot> alterego meant: I might try and teach my gf qml at somepoint, but she gets bored easily :D
May 01 10:49:59 <alterego> big g s her pet name ..
May 01 10:51:42 <alterego> Anyhow, I'm probably not going to be able to do much dialer work for a bit over a week whilst I send off my original N900 for repair :(
May 01 10:53:08 <dm8tbr> alterego: is this documented anywhere? because I haven't found that part yet
May 01 10:54:01 <toninikkanen> why don't you use the qt simulator?
May 01 10:56:44 <alterego> sim is probably better.
May 01 10:56:56 <dm8tbr> is simulator the part with qemu?
May 01 10:57:18 <toninikkanen> no
May 01 10:57:26 <toninikkanen> it's a desktop build that looks like a handset environment
May 01 10:57:40 <dm8tbr> and that has qt mobility?
May 01 10:57:45 <toninikkanen> http://doc.trolltech.com/qtsimulator-1.1/simulator-description.html
May 01 10:57:49 <toninikkanen> yes
May 01 10:57:54 <dm8tbr> ah, that's nice
May 01 10:58:07 <dm8tbr> I'll have to figure out how to run a qml project on that
May 01 10:58:16 <toninikkanen> and you get all kinds of buttons and dials you can tweak around to simulate stuff happening in the device sensors etc
May 01 10:58:34 <dm8tbr> so far the only target it gave me was qmlviewer
May 01 10:59:31 <alterego> Well, a QML Qt project runs on my desktop fine, if you have recent qt dev libs installed.
May 01 10:59:51 <alterego> Mobility haven't really tried as most of that is very phone specific.
May 01 11:00:27 <dm8tbr> mobility seems to be the only way to get sound in qml
May 01 11:00:48 <alterego> Ah, yeah, you need QtMultimedia
May 01 11:01:06 <dm8tbr> qtmultimediakit was the name iirc, yes
May 01 11:57:57 <Clad> Hi !
May 01 12:01:39 <Clad> As a enthusiast user, would it be time yet to upgrade maemo to meego on my N900 when 1.2 is released, or is it still only for developers ?
May 01 12:02:06 <psycho_oreos> I think its still largely for developers
May 01 12:03:48 <Stskeeps> Clad: wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/DeveloperEdition
May 01 12:03:49 <Clad> The version numbers used are a little bit confusing. End users should wait for what, 2.0 ?
May 01 12:03:56 <Stskeeps> Clad: meego.com is a platform
May 01 12:04:05 <Stskeeps> there won't be any official upgrade to meego for n900
May 01 12:04:08 <Stskeeps> from nokia side
May 01 12:05:16 <Clad> Does that mean that it won't be suitable for even hobbyists ?
May 01 12:05:35 <Stskeeps> Clad: you can read the description on 'DeveloperEdition'
May 01 12:05:43 <Stskeeps> if that applies to you.. well, good :)
May 01 12:06:18 <Stskeeps> i personally think it's getting closer to something i could technically use on a daily basis
May 01 12:07:25 <Clad> So you believe that the device would become obsolete anyway before Meego catch up to Maemo ?
May 01 12:08:02 <Stskeeps> Clad: depends. in many ways it's better than maemo, but it's not as featureful. meego on n900 would be a open source device you can hack to your hearts extent, with basic features working fine
May 01 12:08:04 <psycho_oreos> n900 is pretty much already obsolete without any possible successors till nokia says otherwise imo
May 01 12:09:17 <Clad> psycho_oreos: I'd tend to think that as long as their in no successor, it's making it become obsolete slower. You know any other modern smartphone as hackable as the n900, released or planned ?
May 01 12:09:39 <alterego> And a much higher maintained platform base
May 01 12:09:39 <Clad> Stskeeps: thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know
May 01 12:10:00 <alterego> Kernel and all components are continually aligned with the most recent releases from upstream
May 01 12:10:14 <psycho_oreos> Clad, nope, except for all the usual hypes of n9, n950 and whatever else rumours are spreading
May 01 12:13:06 <Clad> Anyhow, I am gonna give Meego a try then, I'll miss apt though, and the partial compatibility with Debian Arm, that's what I liked the most about Maemo.
May 01 12:13:27 <psycho_oreos> there's zypper in place
May 01 12:13:59 <psycho_oreos> it doesn't do everything or exactly as apt-* would do but its probably a lot faster than yum
May 01 12:14:08 <Clad> I know, but I've been using debian for more than 10 years now. As good as rpm may be, it's hard to change habits
May 01 12:15:07 <alterego> You don't have to stop using debian for the sake of MeeGo :P
May 01 12:15:20 <alterego> I will still use debian on my servers and Ubuntu on my workstations
May 01 12:15:52 <alterego> tbh, in the IT world, it's good to know both ;)
May 01 12:16:12 <Stskeeps> Clad: try out the alpha release, see if it's something you like / see potential in, and contribute :)
May 01 12:16:16 <Clad> Haha yeah I guess. The idea of a debian-like in the pocket was cool though.
May 01 12:17:04 <Clad> I wish I could but I am nothing like an IT professional, the only programming language I know  is 68000 ASM
May 01 12:17:16 <alterego> Heh
May 01 12:17:21 <Stskeeps> Clad: you can get very far with python and QML
May 01 12:17:59 <alterego> Well, programmers aren't the only resource we need, we need translators, package maintainers, evangelists, all sorts of different people
May 01 12:18:27 <alterego> We need people porting apps from Maemo to MeeGo now really.
May 01 12:18:31 <alterego> So we can start off running.
May 01 12:19:53 <Clad> I don't have the first clue how to package or port. Translating I do from time to time though but no one really seems intrested in traditional chinese nowdays.
May 01 12:20:15 <Stskeeps> meego's fairly big in asia :P
May 01 12:22:15 <alterego> Learn QML though,
May 01 12:22:33 <alterego> It's really easy, very flexible and kind of like web design only cooler :)
May 01 12:22:53 <alterego> Then maybe look into using Python with QML when QML alone doesn't cut it :)
May 01 12:25:26 <Clad> I tried python once. Wasn't really impressed. Seems like a mess to deploy on windows or AmigaOS.
May 01 13:19:02 <mikhas> the MeeGo keyboard made it to slashdot: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/04/30/137205/On-Screen-Keyboard-Maliit-Demoed-With-Gnome-3
May 01 13:20:11 <alterego> neet
May 01 13:20:20 <alterego> -e +a
May 01 13:20:53 <alterego> Is that an exo?
May 01 13:20:56 <alterego> Awesome ..
May 01 13:22:00 <alterego> Oh, that gesture support is cool ..
May 01 13:22:06 <mikhas> alterego, a WeTab
May 01 13:22:16 <alterego> mikhas: meh, pretty much the same then :D
May 01 13:22:17 <mikhas> so same hardware as ExoPC
May 01 13:22:19 <mikhas> yep
May 01 13:22:40 <mikhas> WeTab OS got nuked shortly after arrival
May 01 13:22:53 <alterego> Oh, is it your vid?
May 01 13:23:04 <mikhas> it's jonnor's
May 01 13:23:11 * alterego wants to see it portrait :P
May 01 13:23:15 <mikhas> me too
May 01 13:23:19 <alterego> That is amazing though,
May 01 13:23:31 <mikhas> I felt like a designer when doing the GNOME Shell theme in a couple of hours
May 01 13:23:39 <alterego> :)
May 01 13:23:45 <mikhas> compare that to the crappy theme we have on handset UX ..
May 01 13:23:49 <mikhas> (for the keyboard)
May 01 13:25:09 <alterego> Yeah, that is impressive stuff, loks like gnome3 + maliik makes a really good tablet platform .. ^.^
May 01 13:26:46 <mikhas> not quite, GNOME folks need to catch up I feel, on tablets
May 01 13:26:58 <maligor> yes, the Menubar is the best invention in tablet ergonomics since the sledgehammer
May 01 13:27:19 <mikhas> it's also under the hood where stuff is missing
May 01 13:28:11 <mikhas> GTK+ input context API feels limited when compared to Qt input context API, you are basically forced to use X11 directly there, for any kind of integration
May 01 13:28:34 <alterego> woof
May 01 13:28:48 <mikhas> integration that goes beyond sending the commit string, I mean
May 01 13:30:09 <mikhas> but it nearly feels as if no one else has really tried GNOME Shell on a tablet yet ...
May 01 13:30:23 <mikhas> quite a bit of handwaving to then say that GNOME Shell is *ready* for tablets
May 01 13:30:39 <berndhs> mikhas: that is ironic, because gnome3-shell is a tablet interface :)
May 01 13:30:56 <mikhas> berndhs, try using it
May 01 13:31:07 <mikhas> try changing window geometry
May 01 13:31:13 <mikhas> try scrolling (no pannable widgets!)
May 01 13:31:18 <mikhas> try ... anything
May 01 13:31:22 <berndhs> i use it on my desktop, thats why I'm saying it is designed for tablets
May 01 13:31:30 <mikhas> and tell me again it's a tablet UX
May 01 13:31:36 <mikhas> then it's neither here nor there
May 01 13:31:48 <berndhs> another possibility yes
May 01 13:32:03 <berndhs> tablet-style with missing details for tablets
May 01 13:32:03 <maligor> I think it feels more like a limited screensize desktop interface
May 01 13:32:45 <berndhs> maligor: perhaps a better description, yes
May 01 14:03:34 <Venemo_N900> hey guys :)
May 01 14:06:43 <ali1234> unity and gnome-shell to me both feel like tablet UX designed by someone who hasnever used a tablet
May 01 14:07:16 <ali1234> "oh touch screen, let's just make the buttons really big and that should be enough right?"
May 01 14:07:23 <Stskeeps> that didn't really work for maemo5
May 01 14:07:24 <Stskeeps> :P
May 01 14:07:29 <Stskeeps> well, to some degree
May 01 14:07:35 <Stskeeps> ok, maemo4 is more fair
May 01 14:09:03 <Venemo_N900> ali1234: Gnome 3 is not a tablet ux
May 01 14:09:21 <Venemo_N900> it is not (at all) optimized for touchscreen use
May 01 14:09:27 <Venemo_N900> nor for small screens
May 01 14:09:33 <ali1234> it is (not at all) optimized for desktop use either
May 01 14:09:36 <maligor> nor for large screens
May 01 14:09:43 <ali1234> so what the hell is it?
May 01 14:09:44 <Venemo_N900> it works great on my laptop though
May 01 14:09:53 <Venemo_N900> well, works on my large screen :)
May 01 14:10:29 <maligor> it sort of works if you get into the habit of using the shortcut for the overlay thing
May 01 14:10:50 <Venemo_N900> yea
May 01 14:11:18 <Venemo_N900> actually, gnome 3 has quite improved my workflow after I got used to it.
May 01 14:12:02 <maligor> I'm quite tempted to fix the gnome-panel to allow interactive configuration
May 01 14:12:08 <Venemo_N900> the only downside is that you'll need to read its "cheat sheet" in order to use it effectively
May 01 14:12:09 <maligor> and 'fix' is infact the correct word
May 01 14:12:17 <maligor> because it's plain broken now
May 01 14:12:37 <Venemo_N900> you mean gnome-shell's panel?
May 01 14:12:47 <maligor> no, the gnome-panel
May 01 14:12:54 <Venemo_N900> the old one?
May 01 14:12:59 <maligor> the one in 3.0
May 01 14:13:09 <Venemo_N900> aah, the "fallback mode"?
May 01 14:13:26 <maligor> it seems to have all the same features the 2.x panel does, but they decided to remove all the gui's so you can't edit it
May 01 14:13:34 <maligor> aka.. wtf
May 01 14:13:37 <Venemo_N900> yea
May 01 14:13:43 <Venemo_N900> they dumbed it down
May 01 14:14:00 <maligor> you can edit it from dconf
May 01 14:14:22 <Venemo_N900> haha
May 01 14:14:45 <Venemo_N900> anyway I don't use the fallback mode, so it's not a big deal of a problem for me
May 01 14:15:42 <berndhs> i dont understand the design principle to make things easier by taking away all choices
May 01 14:16:36 <Venemo_N900> well yea, the fallback mode is kinda dumb
May 01 14:16:53 <Venemo_N900> I very much like the new shell though.
May 01 14:18:33 <berndhs> i think some of their choices are wrong
May 01 14:18:56 <berndhs> fixed panel on top is a bad choice more often than not
May 01 14:19:14 <berndhs> icons are too big, text labels too small
May 01 14:19:20 <Venemo_N900> berndhs: actually, the shell is more customizable than you think
May 01 14:19:41 <berndhs> yeah maybe i havent found it, or they dont advertise it very much
May 01 14:20:00 <Venemo_N900> one can write an extension in javascript and these extensions can pretty much do anything to it
May 01 14:20:12 <berndhs> I actually *want* small status display in a panel-like grouping
May 01 14:20:31 <berndhs> and better date formating
May 01 14:20:42 <Venemo_N900> well there is a status display in the top right
May 01 14:20:55 <Venemo_N900> and a system tray in the bottom right
May 01 14:21:19 <berndhs> i want to put other stuff there, like CPU temp, network load,
May 01 14:22:13 <Venemo_N900> and there are a bunch of hidden features which are configurable via gconf/gsettings
May 01 14:22:45 <berndhs> on thing thats wrong is the applications "button" is on one side of the screen, the menu is on the other
May 01 14:22:48 <Venemo_N900> actually noone has written a cpu load extension for the shell yet. but if they do, they could make it appear in the system status area
May 01 14:24:23 <berndhs> maybe its jsut released a little too early
May 01 14:26:28 <Venemo_N900> maybe
May 01 14:27:37 <thiago_home> release early, release often
May 01 14:27:44 <thiago_home> if you want until everything is perfect, you'll never release
May 01 14:27:54 <Venemo_N900> thiago_home ++
May 01 14:27:55 <thiago_home> been there, done that
May 01 14:28:12 <berndhs> sure, now they can read all my complaints and improve things :)
May 01 14:28:15 * w00t_ agrees wholeheartedly
May 01 14:28:22 <Venemo_N900> anyway, gnome people are still impriving their stuff.
May 01 14:28:37 <Venemo_N900> you can drop into their irc channels and give feedback
May 01 14:28:52 <thiago_home> or come to the desktop summit
May 01 14:29:03 <thiago_home> the program is looking great
May 01 14:29:30 <thiago_home> which reminds me: if you have ideas of things you'd like to see at the meegoconf but don't see it in the schedule yet, mail me
May 01 14:29:44 <thiago_home> include your suggestion for speaker too if you have
May 01 14:30:09 <thiago_home> we'll open the second CfP for late-breaking news soon
May 01 14:30:19 <Venemo_N900> thiago_home: is there any chance that the next meego conf is held in a place where an average person can attend it?
May 01 14:30:39 <w00t_> Venemo_N900: every location is difficult for someone
May 01 14:31:08 <Venemo_N900> sure, but both of the previous ones would have been difficult for me
May 01 14:31:21 <w00t_> so where wouldn't be difficult for you?
May 01 14:32:00 <thiago_home> Venemo_N900: the next one should be in Europe
May 01 14:32:15 <thiago_home> probably central
May 01 14:32:50 <Venemo_N900> w00t_: anywhere to where I can go without spending a whole month's salary to only get there
May 01 14:33:05 <Venemo_N900> central EU sounds good enough :)
May 01 14:34:51 <mikhas> release early? GNOME Shell is the result of 3 years of work already
May 01 14:35:06 <thiago_home> yeah
May 01 14:35:12 <thiago_home> but it could easily have been more
May 01 14:35:23 <Venemo_N900> mikhas: probably that's why they were so desparate to make a release
May 01 14:35:57 <Venemo_N900> anyway, I'm glad they haven't released earlier; the shell was horseshit even half a year ago
May 01 15:51:53 <Venemo_N900> does this affect MeeGo? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_mobile_uffda&num=1
May 01 15:54:07 <thiago_home> no
May 01 15:54:14 <thiago_home> we have no MeeGo release running 2.6.38
May 01 15:54:39 <dm8tbr> also this looks like tested for x86 only
May 01 15:55:01 <thiago_home> yes, I guess that too
May 01 15:55:48 <berndhs> and he likes the terms "regression" and "vicious"
May 01 15:57:58 <dm8tbr> it's phoronix, what did you expect?
May 01 15:58:01 <Venemo_N900> would be interesting to see if anyone else can reproduce his tests
May 01 16:04:45 <akk> Hopefully when they change MeeGo kernels, power use testing is part of the decision process ...
May 01 16:04:49 <Stskeeps> it is
May 01 16:05:01 <akk> Good, thought it probably was.
May 01 16:05:03 <Stskeeps> i mean, these are the former moblin guys, they take power seriously
May 01 16:05:41 <Venemo_N900> and former Maemo guys
May 01 16:05:45 <Venemo_N900> aren't they?
May 01 16:05:46 <akk> Yeah, Intel/Moblin has done a lot for power use testing on regular Linux (powertop etc.)
May 01 16:05:53 <Stskeeps> Venemo_N900: yeah
May 01 16:06:05 <Venemo_N900> :)
May 01 16:06:15 <Venemo_N900> this reminds me of something
May 01 16:07:05 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer and myself have recently discovered that the N900 accelerometer driver of MeeGo is kinda borked
May 01 16:07:22 <thiago_home> jitter?
May 01 16:07:35 <Stskeeps> that's not recently, Doc has been complaining about it for ages :)
May 01 16:07:52 <Stskeeps> and the problem is in the linux kernel, so the discussion should go on there
May 01 16:08:00 <Venemo_N900> sure, but it was only about a week ago when I saw it myself
May 01 16:08:51 <Venemo_N900> apart from the driver constantly polling the accelerometer 20 times/sec, there is a greater issue.
May 01 16:12:05 <Venemo_N900> the accelerometer could be programmed in such a way that it could send interrupt requests when the orientation changes. so there would be no need to poll it at all (unless an app needs the raw accel.erometer data of course)
May 01 16:13:55 <Stskeeps> right, the interesting question is why it's not in upstream then
May 01 16:13:59 <Stskeeps> i mean, it is a pretty universal driver
May 01 16:14:51 <Venemo_N900> yeah. and actually, even the driver in Maemo is better that that in upstream
May 01 16:15:29 <Venemo_N900> so Stskeeps, where should we raise this discussion?
May 01 16:16:18 <Stskeeps> the linux kernel mailing list? can't recall what section the accelerometer is in
May 01 16:17:19 <Venemo_N900> mhm
May 01 16:17:44 <Venemo_N900> if we could fix this, it may also have an effect on the N900's battery life
May 01 16:18:31 <mikhas> thiago_home, changing to commercial license changes Qt API? really?
May 01 16:18:37 <Stskeeps> right - well, it's also about intelligent behaviour of the accelerometer
May 01 16:18:46 <Stskeeps> like, the userland parts
May 01 16:19:09 <piggz> are there any cheap chinese tablets that can run meego?
May 01 16:19:56 <akk> Somebody's working on a port to Archos tablets (French, not Chinese, but they're cheap). I think it's still alpha, though.
May 01 16:20:19 <Venemo_N900> yeah, that's smoku
May 01 16:41:21 <DocScrutinizer> yes, the userland parts for g-meter need to configure things like highpass, threshold and IRQ properly. The kernel driver needs to expose the API for doing so, and needs to take care about actual hw IRQ triggering userland handling if the event. This can either be implemented by using kevents/uevents as an integral part of sysfs design, or by kernel driver exposing a /dev/input device for g-meter events
May 01 16:42:18 <Venemo_N900> indeed
May 01 16:42:58 <DocScrutinizer> if the kernel driver lacks those API bits, no whatever cute userland process can fix the issue
May 01 16:43:24 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer ++
May 01 16:43:36 <DocScrutinizer> otoh you can't fix a borked API without patching/fixing the userland as well
May 01 16:45:13 <DocScrutinizer> any ciao, I know my comments aren't welcome here, as many are already fed up by them
May 01 16:45:46 <Stskeeps> they're more than welcome here, but you and me both know that the right place to discuss those things are the linux kernel mailing list
May 01 16:49:30 <Venemo_N900> Stskeeps, do you happen to be subscribed to that mailing list?
May 01 16:50:28 <Stskeeps> Venemo_N900: no, because i'm not a kernel developer, but i do peek in once in a while. long story short: the driver modifications/changes/discussions should happen in the linux kernel as if we just keep a seperate fork for one version of the linux kernel, for the n900, we're screwed when we want to upgrade kernel
May 01 16:50:45 <Stskeeps> upstream first is one of the principles of meego, because we don't want to take all those components and fork them
May 01 16:51:03 <DocScrutinizer> fair enough, good point
May 01 16:51:26 <Stskeeps> (and that the same driver is used by multiple devices, as far as i recall)
May 01 16:51:32 <Venemo_N900> Stskeeps, good point, but I'm not a kernel developer either
May 01 16:51:52 <Venemo_N900> does MeeGo have a kernel developer?
May 01 16:52:02 <Stskeeps> it has several, but i guess you mean for meego n900?
May 01 16:53:00 <DocScrutinizer> I guess he meant for meego on platforms with LIS302
May 01 16:53:19 <Venemo_N900> I mean anyone who could bring up this specific issue on that mailing list.
May 01 16:53:33 <DocScrutinizer> which could be arbitrary tablets and laptops as well, for freefall detection
May 01 16:53:47 <Stskeeps> Venemo_N900: 'kimju' is our kernel maintainer, but generally it's best not to use a middleman :P
May 01 16:54:19 <Venemo_N900> hehe
May 01 16:56:38 <Santer> u
May 01 16:56:40 <Santer> mm
May 01 16:57:31 <Venemo_N900> Stskeeps: if you find me the correct mailing list, I'll write to it when I get home
May 01 17:00:18 <DocScrutinizer> I'll ask why OM/OE lis302 driver never went upstream
May 01 17:00:30 <Stskeeps> probably a good place to start
May 01 17:00:50 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer: did OM send it upstream?
May 01 17:01:26 <DocScrutinizer> just asking
May 01 17:01:34 <DocScrutinizer> no idea yet
May 01 17:01:51 <DocScrutinizer> I think it went up to open-embedded
May 01 17:02:04 <DocScrutinizer> have to find details
May 01 17:02:18 <DocScrutinizer> (also no kernel maintainer here)
May 01 17:02:32 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer: does OM's driver have the functionality we've been talking about?
May 01 17:02:45 <DocScrutinizer> afaict yes
May 01 17:03:00 <Venemo_N900> even highway mode?
May 01 17:03:08 <DocScrutinizer> highpass?
May 01 17:03:10 <DocScrutinizer> not sure
May 01 17:03:26 <Venemo_N900> yes, highpass it is
May 01 17:03:27 <Venemo_N900> sorry
May 01 17:03:50 <DocScrutinizer> I'm about to ask where's the recent sources, and what's the plans and state about getting them upstream, then I'll scrutinize them
May 01 17:03:56 <Venemo_N900> also, you mentioned once that the lis302 could send irqs only if there is an orientation change.
May 01 17:04:13 <DocScrutinizer> yes
May 01 17:04:22 <DocScrutinizer> that's the whole idea behind it
May 01 17:04:34 <Venemo_N900> actually, that would be a huge win imo
May 01 17:04:53 <Ronksu> it can do it, but setting the thresholds is quite tricky
May 01 17:05:50 <DocScrutinizer> Ronksu: set highpass on to suppress absolute values and trigger on any arbitrary change, then read out absolute values and decide about current orientation
May 01 17:05:54 <Venemo_N900> I'm just saying because most of the time telling the device orientation is the only use for the accelerometer
May 01 17:06:46 <Ronksu> DocScrutinizer: ah, trigger on any arbitrary change is quite alright
May 01 17:07:00 <Venemo_N900> so we could spare ourselves the polling of it, which would then have a positive impact on cpu use and battery life.
May 01 17:07:03 <DocScrutinizer> Ronksu: wouldn't trigger if you tie the device to the hands of a clock, but that'S a unusual usecase
May 01 17:07:38 <Ronksu> sure, that slow movement can be ignored
May 01 17:08:46 <Ronksu> would be nice to have it like that.
May 01 17:09:46 <ali1234> sounds like how the old version of meego worked
May 01 17:10:10 <ali1234> where you rotate it, and then you have to vigorously shake it to make it recognize that orientation changed
May 01 17:10:59 <DocScrutinizer> set better parameters for highpass cutoff freq and threshold then
May 01 17:12:01 <DocScrutinizer> I think the theoretical sesitivity is in the range of 60s/90°
May 01 17:14:16 <DocScrutinizer> btw I've encountered such behaviour when the lis302 got decalibrated (probably by some race on I2C bus resulting in bogus commands) and thus had a huge offset on some axis and needed a reboot to make driver reset the chip's engine
May 01 17:14:27 <DocScrutinizer> (on maemo that is)
May 01 17:15:04 <DocScrutinizer> (maemo driver also doesn't use highpass and only looks on absolute values of X and Y)
May 01 17:15:53 <Venemo_N900> so if OM's driver is that good, why did Nokia decide to write their own?
May 01 17:16:29 <DocScrutinizer> I think maemo5 and OM were concurrent development
May 01 17:17:19 <Ronksu> sounds quite likely, although I haven't been around in maemo5 times
May 01 17:17:56 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer: OM is a bit older, isn't it?
May 01 17:18:30 <DocScrutinizer> maybe a lil bit
May 01 17:18:50 <DocScrutinizer> though I dunno when maemo5 development inside Nokia actually took place
May 01 17:22:04 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_N900: <to_whom_it_may_concern>: http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=blob;f=drivers/input/misc/lis302dl.c;h=d345bfb2718fba6c96c7a27d83b53c0a35c9d064;hb=andy-tracking
May 01 17:22:22 <DocScrutinizer> <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: do you know by any chance if and why our driver never hit mainstream
May 01 17:22:33 <DocScrutinizer> <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: i guess that's because nobody ever cared enough
May 01 17:22:39 <Stskeeps> heh
May 01 17:22:50 <Stskeeps> that happens in open source projects too
May 01 17:22:50 <Stskeeps> :P
May 01 17:23:13 <DocScrutinizer> I'm going to inspect that driver for quality
May 01 17:23:29 <DocScrutinizer> then suggest to get it upstream if it's ok for that
May 01 17:23:44 <DocScrutinizer> *eventually* - not today
May 01 17:24:54 <DocScrutinizer> afaik it's following the /dev/input scheme for API, so this would be the preferable implementation in my book
May 01 17:26:12 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer: sounds like good news to me
May 01 17:26:55 <npm> re:  "we have no MeeGo release running 2.6.38" ... depends on how you parse release... i'm running 2.6.38.2-8.2-adaptation-pinetrail but it's power consumption seems ok (re : http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_mobile_uffda&num=1 )
May 01 17:27:06 <DocScrutinizer> it might be, depending on actual quality of that implementation, and whether I can talk somebody into "taking care to get it upstream"
May 01 17:29:29 <npm> ^^^ catching up to a few hours ago  statement by thiago_home
May 01 17:32:11 <Venemo_N900> npm: thx
May 01 17:32:38 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer: it would be nice if you could talk some sense into those guys and get it to upstream
May 01 17:33:36 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_N900: <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: it would take someone who understands kernel programming reasonably well to stand up as a maintainer and "defender" for that version, especially given there's other with an incompatible api.
May 01 17:35:41 <DocScrutinizer> bottom line: we're screwed as there's been a crappy implementation and nobody who's interested in getting a better one and willing to take the effort
May 01 17:36:29 <Venemo_N900> hmm
May 01 17:36:36 <npm> of course if i run gkrellm(1)'s so i can see its battery plugin, then of course the battery life decreases more quickly...
May 01 17:36:50 <DocScrutinizer> my effort is limited to scrutinizing and evaluation what we got on om git, and reporting here
May 01 17:37:38 <DocScrutinizer> o/
May 01 17:39:03 <Venemo_N900> well DocScrutinizer, I would volunteer to take the effort if I had enough knowledge.
May 01 17:41:13 <Venemo> good evening everyone :)
May 01 17:41:16 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_N900: * TODO       * configuration interface (sysfs) for *              * high pass filter parameters
May 01 17:41:24 <Venemo> Venemo_N900, go away
May 01 17:41:39 <DocScrutinizer> http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=blob;f=drivers/input/misc/lis302dl.c;h=d345bfb2718fba6c96c7a27d83b53c0a35c9d064;hb=andy-tracking#l26
May 01 17:42:10 <DocScrutinizer> so each implementation lacks some bits
May 01 17:42:37 <Venemo> seems that this one lacks less bits than others
May 01 17:43:08 <DocScrutinizer> some are aware of the lacking bits, some are braindead stupid by design
May 01 17:43:21 <Venemo> yeah, you could put it that way too DocScrutinizer :P
May 01 17:48:01 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer, as I recall, the upstream driver even admits in its comments how stupid it is
May 01 17:48:13 <DocScrutinizer> yes
May 01 17:48:36 <DocScrutinizer> it's explicitly designed for joysticks only
May 01 17:50:15 <Venemo> thp, ping
May 01 17:52:31 <white_gecko> hello
May 01 17:52:49 <Stskeeps> hi
May 01 17:52:52 <Venemo> hello
May 01 17:52:55 <white_gecko> what is the difference between oaktrail and pinetrail?
May 01 17:52:56 <white_gecko> http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.99.4.20110426.4/images/
May 01 17:53:06 <white_gecko> for the tablet
May 01 17:53:27 <Stskeeps> two different chipset targets?
May 01 17:53:34 <white_gecko> ok
May 01 17:53:44 <white_gecko> which one is for the exopc?
May 01 17:55:16 <Stskeeps> pinetrail, i think
May 01 17:56:22 <RST38h> Oaktrail > Pinetrail ?
May 01 17:56:41 <RST38h> Oaktrail=tablets while Pinetrail=netbooks ?
May 01 17:57:09 <npm> isn't the exopc an n45* and therefore pinetrail?
May 01 17:57:42 <npm> with naming conventions like that, we're lead down the garden path....
May 01 17:58:58 <RST38h> Names come from geo locations in Oregon AFAIK
May 01 18:01:06 <npm> turns out the french military stole nokia's name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Harmattan
May 01 18:01:11 <npm> :-)
May 01 18:01:42 <Ronksu> :D
May 01 18:01:44 <Stskeeps> how many died?
May 01 18:01:44 <Stskeeps> :P
May 01 18:01:50 <RST38h> Nokia used wind names for its Maemo releases
May 01 18:02:07 <npm> perhaps obscure oregon trail names are less likely to be used as military operation names
May 01 18:02:26 <npm> military operations involving weather names are a bad idea :-)
May 01 18:02:29 <RST38h> Stskeeps: At least one son of Quaddafi and two grandsons. Counting though.
May 01 18:02:31 <npm> c.f. blitzkrie
May 01 18:02:33 <npm> g
May 01 18:03:11 <thiago_home> mikhas: no, it doesn't change the API
May 01 18:03:13 <RST38h> Stskeeps: The guy appears to be quite a stud, given the number of his offspring being spotted in the action
May 01 18:04:22 <npm> being a dictator is like being a rabbit... you have to reproduce a lot to ensure some survive
May 01 18:04:54 <RST38h> npm: not suggesting to increase the chances one of your children deposes you though?
May 01 18:05:24 <berndhs> used to be the sport of kings, hunting relatives
May 01 18:05:25 <npm> well a good dictator never would let that happen
May 01 18:07:14 <Stskeeps> RST38h: you prevent that by having many, so they'll be tired from fighting amongst themseves
May 01 18:07:26 <RST38h> Goood idea!
May 01 18:08:09 <RST38h> Obligatory illustration: http://kazakdesign.com/files/images/no_publish/2011/oil_war.jpg
May 01 18:08:59 <berndhs> a lot cheaper to buy the oil
May 01 18:09:30 <RST38h> Do not assume any of these characters are wise, reasonable,or even sane.
May 01 18:09:32 <npm> http://www.zeenews.com/news698907.html "Young Gaddafi was once a sex symbol in Lanka"
May 01 18:09:44 <Stskeeps> right, we're going a bit off topic
May 01 18:09:45 <Stskeeps> :P
May 01 18:10:33 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Ah, wake me up once there is a Meego phone I can buy =)
May 01 18:11:53 <npm> maybe if you move to china
May 01 18:13:32 <npm> is there even space for another handset platform... other than one that bubbles up from the bottom, due to lowest cost/pricing?
May 01 18:13:52 <berndhs> there is always room at the top :)
May 01 18:14:06 <RST38h> Too deep, my crystal balls cannot answer thart
May 01 18:14:56 <RST38h> What they CAN tell though is that neither iOS nor Android have nothing to be afraid of Meego though
May 01 18:15:10 <npm> the top is not profitable unless you get "cachet"  in the public eye ala apple or mercedes/bmw/etc
May 01 18:15:33 <RST38h> Lots of assumptions here
May 01 18:15:48 <berndhs> well, if its actually better, marketing has a chance to explain that
May 01 18:16:43 <RST38h> Forget all this stuff. Just ask yourself this:
May 01 18:17:09 <Venemo> RST38h, iOS probably indeed doesn't, but Android has, if MeeGo will be good enough.
May 01 18:17:16 <RST38h> You come to the store (BestBuy, MediaMarkt, whatever) and see a bunch of phones on sale
May 01 18:17:35 <RST38h> There is a bunch with Android, one or two with WP7, and an iPhone
May 01 18:17:39 <white_gecko> ok i put the meego-tablet-ia32-pinetrail-1.1.99.4.20110426.4.img to my pendrive
May 01 18:17:43 <mikhas> thiago_home, then I dont get what Arjan means.
May 01 18:17:48 <npm> you can always do "boutique consulting" around esoteric stuff, but w/r/t selling devices the bell-curve probably holds true...
May 01 18:17:51 <white_gecko> and set the bootable flag with fdisk
May 01 18:17:58 <RST38h> Throw in a Meego phone into this bunch. WHAT should it have to make you absolute buy it?
May 01 18:18:07 <thiago_home> mikhas: it's not the commecrial license, it's the compliance
May 01 18:18:18 <white_gecko> but when i select the pendrive to boot from i get "Operating System Missing"
May 01 18:18:23 <thiago_home> mikhas: if you want to be compliant, you have to use our version, including our patches
May 01 18:18:27 <RST38h> Task #2: Same situation, but all the phones look more or less the same physically
May 01 18:18:35 <Stskeeps> is there a difference in the tarballs between 'commercial' and opensource qt?
May 01 18:18:36 <berndhs> prettier phone, better call quality, better contract,...
May 01 18:18:43 <RST38h> So that you are competing only on the merits of the software
May 01 18:18:55 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: yes, one or two files. The absence of the opensource license in the commercial tarball.
May 01 18:19:01 <Stskeeps> thiago_home: ah
May 01 18:19:03 <RST38h> berndhs: pretty much the same hw
May 01 18:19:20 <RST38h> Same 2-3 providers, so same contracts
May 01 18:19:23 <berndhs> RST38h: how many customers even know that something runs android ?
May 01 18:19:40 <RST38h> berndhs: I am not assuming that you KNOW what brick runs what
May 01 18:19:43 <berndhs> they know apple, but the rest looks all the same
May 01 18:19:46 <Venemo> [20:17] <RST38h> Throw in a Meego phone into this bunch. WHAT should it have to make you absolute buy it? ---> depends on the target audience.
May 01 18:19:49 <npm> berndhs: most -- they've been pitched w/ google advertising for a few years
May 01 18:20:01 <RST38h> berndhs: But you know how Android UI looks like. How will you differ?
May 01 18:20:04 <berndhs> for the rest its the phone manufacturer brand
May 01 18:20:09 <npm> and billboards w/ 'droid' product placement
May 01 18:20:20 <thiago_home> unless it's a modified UI, like HTC or Samsung's
May 01 18:20:38 <RST38h> Ok, so, as you can see, none of you can come up with an answer to my question, even for an easier case #1
May 01 18:20:46 <npm> the thing that'll make me buy it is open-ness, and price.
May 01 18:20:53 <npm> but that's what the operators may prevent
May 01 18:20:54 <berndhs> i would establish an identity for my product
May 01 18:21:01 <RST38h> All I am getting is "depends on auditory", "depends on contract", "depends on marketing"
May 01 18:21:25 <npm> so can someone sell a dirt cheap unlocked meego phone that doesn't have a lot of gloss
May 01 18:21:31 <RST38h> To sell a device, you have to make it BETTER than the other devices. How can Meego achieve that?
May 01 18:22:03 <RST38h> npm: Android starts at $200 sans contract. End of story.
May 01 18:22:05 <npm> by being open (c.f. tracking news of late)
May 01 18:22:16 <RST38h> "Open" does not sell stuff.
May 01 18:22:27 <Venemo> RST38h, better and more customizable UX, better customer care, more stable OS.
May 01 18:22:37 <RST38h> "Red" sells more units than "Open" :)
May 01 18:22:57 <npm> well in the world of audio/video and music for example, android does not allow realtime audio synch
May 01 18:22:58 <RST38h> Venemo: "My phone is reliable and I like HTC service" (C)customer
May 01 18:23:02 <npm> whereas meego could
May 01 18:23:22 <npm> so for a certain segment of the market that cares about that, it can be a differentiator
May 01 18:23:40 <RST38h> Heh... Where is Arkanoid when you need him...
May 01 18:23:57 <RST38h> npm: How big a segment? You, me, and 500 other geeks?
May 01 18:24:11 <Venemo> RST38h, let me pick one example. I heard about a bunch of android phones that used data connections even though they were explicitly set not to do that. then of course the owners received an enormously high bill at the end of the month.
May 01 18:24:31 <Venemo> RST38h, also there are hardware issues with HTC and their shit, and so on.
May 01 18:24:54 <Venemo> RST38h, there always will be customers for a MeeGo device, as long as it is good enough.
May 01 18:25:04 <npm> RST38h: not necessarily. people expect their video sound to track the picture
May 01 18:25:07 <thiago_home> RST38h: MeeGo doesn't sell. If a company wants to ship a MeeGo device, it's their business to make sure it sells.
May 01 18:25:13 <RST38h> Venemo: you know betterthan me that 99% people do not know and/or care about their phone reporting on them to the Man
May 01 18:25:39 <npm> people doing creative/capture work will be sensitive to synchronization issues
May 01 18:25:46 <RST38h> thiago: Cool. Now, imagine you are such a company. How would you differentiate your Meego device from Android, WP7, iOS, etc
May 01 18:25:51 <npm> and android is a total no-go
May 01 18:25:56 <thiago_home> RST38h: there are several strategies
May 01 18:26:02 <thiago_home> RST38h: bundling of nice apps
May 01 18:26:05 <RST38h> thiago: And, to complicate things, your hardware is more or less the same as android
May 01 18:26:06 <thiago_home> RST38h: cheap phones
May 01 18:26:06 <npm> on realtime audio -- i'm on a list devoted to the topic
May 01 18:26:13 <RST38h> thiago: Ok. More?
May 01 18:26:14 <thiago_home> RST38h: better deals with operators
May 01 18:26:19 <RST38h> More?
May 01 18:26:22 <thiago_home> RST38h: making sure it has a kick-ass UI
May 01 18:26:27 <npm> http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/andraudio/
May 01 18:26:31 <RST38h> Anything else?
May 01 18:26:44 <thiago_home> RST38h: I'm not part of Nokia's Markets team
May 01 18:26:45 <mikeleib> thiago_home: talks about meego, right?
May 01 18:26:46 <Venemo> RST38h, sure, but people care about their monthly bill
May 01 18:26:48 <thiago_home> I'm an engineer
May 01 18:26:54 <berndhs> make sure it has *your* brand, not the android brand
May 01 18:26:58 <npm> sure... the recent skype application on android issue
May 01 18:27:01 <RST38h> thiago: Not asking you as a marketing person, just humor mefor a bit
May 01 18:27:04 <thiago_home> RST38h: if you want, I can put you in contact with my colleagues from the office.
May 01 18:27:17 <RST38h> Venemo: there is a cap, and it gets under the cap
May 01 18:27:17 <npm> where credential theft occurred despite androids security
May 01 18:27:19 <thiago_home> RST38h: can you tell me what kinds of paint blend better to make a picture?
May 01 18:27:30 <Venemo> RST38h, well for the people I've been talking about, it wasn't.
May 01 18:27:39 <npm> perhaps meego smack labelling in conjunction w/ such closed apps could solve the issue better?
May 01 18:27:48 <RST38h> thiago: same kind, of different colors
May 01 18:28:00 <thiago_home> RST38h: I'm talking about painting. Are you a painter?
May 01 18:28:19 <thiago_home> RST38h: can you tell me what makes a painting be more valuable than others?
May 01 18:28:28 <RST38h> thiago: I am not a painter but I know a few things that stay constant whether you are a painter or not
May 01 18:28:35 <RST38h> thiago: yes I can
May 01 18:28:39 <Venemo> RST38h, for most of the customers, the OS doesn't matter as long as it can do the things that they expect it to do. that's all to this matter.
May 01 18:28:50 <RST38h> thiago: But let us not stary from the topic of this channel, should we?
May 01 18:28:54 <npm> actually it's all about apps
May 01 18:29:00 <thiago_home> RST38h: I'm pointing out that Markets is not my job
May 01 18:29:08 <npm> it has nothing to do w/ platform per se
May 01 18:29:09 <thiago_home> RST38h: I can give you a few ideas, but ultimately I might be completely wrong.
May 01 18:29:16 <thiago_home> RST38h: I'm an engineer.
May 01 18:29:20 <npm> platform w/ most apps and most users wins
May 01 18:29:23 <npm> just ask windows
May 01 18:29:39 <Venemo> RST38h, if you can give me a MeeGo device with a good outlook, good CPU and a decent battery life, I'll buy.
May 01 18:29:40 <RST38h> thiago: Ok, got it, will omityour from this discussion.
May 01 18:29:53 <RST38h> Ok, let us see what has been said so far:
May 01 18:29:55 <thiago_home> RST38h: are you qualified to discuss it?
May 01 18:30:06 <lcuk> npm a keyboard has no expandable apps and is in use in far more areas than windows.
May 01 18:30:09 <RST38h> thiago: I am qualified to discuss anything I want
May 01 18:30:11 <thiago_home> anyone here has studied what sells in the mobile phone market?
May 01 18:30:13 <mikeleib> thiago_home: is an all knowing robot who never sleeps
May 01 18:30:25 <mikhas> marketing sells
May 01 18:30:27 <thiago_home> RST38h: right. That doesn't make you right.
May 01 18:30:29 <RST38h> 1) Low cost: Android phones start around $200, so nogo here
May 01 18:30:33 <mikhas> that, and ... more marketing
May 01 18:30:43 <thiago_home> RST38h: you can discuss anything you want. That doesn't make your opinion right.
May 01 18:30:52 * RST38h sighs
May 01 18:30:55 <Venemo> RST38h, only low-end android (crappy screen, crappy CPU) sell for $200
May 01 18:30:57 <mikhas> I have studied the Apple stocks, therefore I am qualified
May 01 18:31:01 * lcuk enthralled to see activity on the channel :)
May 01 18:31:02 <RST38h> Venemo: Correct.
May 01 18:31:07 <thiago_home> and when you discuss something you have no knowledge about, it just makes you look like a fool.
May 01 18:31:22 <RST38h> Venemo: Will you be able to make a higher-specced device for the same cost, given that Android is free for OEMs?
May 01 18:31:30 <npm> what about lower cost than the android phones. don't they have closed drivers in there that cost money per unit sold?
May 01 18:31:42 <RST38h> npm: AFAIK no
May 01 18:31:44 <Venemo> RST38h, MeeGo is free for OEMs too
May 01 18:31:46 * thiago_home will instead go make dinner
May 01 18:31:56 <akk> Maemo devices ewre really expensive. Would be great if there were some cheap meego devices eventually.
May 01 18:32:05 <RST38h> Venemo: So, neither Meego nor Android will contribute to the unit cost, significantly anyway
May 01 18:32:19 <npm> isn't android actually "closing" right now s.t. only big handset mfgrs will have access to code?
May 01 18:32:30 <RST38h> Venemo: And this, unfortunately, means that you won't be able to make a cheaper higher-specced device
May 01 18:32:34 <Venemo> RST38h, I've just realized what is it that you view from the wrong viewpoint
May 01 18:32:42 <RST38h> Venemo: ?
May 01 18:32:50 * lcuk goes drinking beer
May 01 18:33:13 <Venemo> RST38h, MeeGo is targeting OEMs, not end users.
May 01 18:33:23 <RST38h> Venemo: So does Android
May 01 18:33:27 <Venemo> indeed.
May 01 18:33:33 <Venemo> RST38h, now imagine that you are an OEM.
May 01 18:33:37 <RST38h> Ok
May 01 18:33:57 <npm> imho that's part of the problem .... other distros don't target just oems or just users
May 01 18:34:04 <Venemo> RST38h, as an OEM, you want to stand out from the crowd. offer something different than your competitors.
May 01 18:34:13 <RST38h> and what will you offer?
May 01 18:34:54 <Venemo> RST38h, so if MeeGo provides a good way to 1) customize the UX 2) develop for the device then it will be a good choice for any OEM that wants something different.
May 01 18:35:33 <RST38h> Venemo: Are you aware that all the major ANdroid OEMs (Samsung, Moto, HTC, even Dell) customize their UX?
May 01 18:35:41 <Venemo> RST38h, indeed
May 01 18:35:43 <npm> aren't there a bunch of cheap n900 clones for like $100 (w/ less memory)... why can't they make the next meego phone :-)
May 01 18:35:48 <RST38h> SO, still no difference here
May 01 18:35:48 * mikeleib goes for lunch and beer
May 01 18:35:56 <Venemo> RST38h, this is why MeeGo needs to have that feature too
May 01 18:35:57 <RST38h> npm:Nope.
May 01 18:36:27 <Venemo> RST38h, anyway, Android customizations aren't that big. I haven't really seen two android UXes that didn't look alike.
May 01 18:36:33 <RST38h> You are still not answering what will make me (as a stupid average customer) choose a Meego device over androids etc
May 01 18:36:47 <npm> RST38h: http://mobile.engadget.com/2009/09/29/keepin-it-real-fake-part-ccxxxvi-nokia-n900-rip-shows-no-trad/
May 01 18:36:50 <Venemo> RST38h, this is the part that you are not getting.
May 01 18:37:01 <berndhs> RST38h: you wont know if its meego or android, and you wont care
May 01 18:37:03 <Venemo> RST38h, stupid average customer doesn't care about the OS!!!
May 01 18:37:05 <dm8tbr> KIRFs usually run S60
May 01 18:37:24 * dm8tbr is with Venemo on this one
May 01 18:37:42 <Venemo> RST38h, stupid average customer cares about his specific needs
May 01 18:38:44 <Venemo> RST38h, for example, he may want a device with good email capabilities. or a good camera. or a good messaging experience. whatever.
May 01 18:39:31 <Venemo> RST38h, for example if MeeGo has an e-mail client that is more responsible, quicker and looks better than android ones, then the users who are looking for a device with a good e-mail experience will buy the MeeGo device
May 01 18:39:49 <Venemo> RST38h, but they won't buy it because it has the name 'MeeGo' on it. they'll buy for the feautres.
May 01 18:41:21 <npm> well they might buy it for the "MeeGo" if a consumer name-recognition initiative was started like it was for "droid"
May 01 18:42:20 <npm> people are stupid.. if they see a name enough times they'll buy it even if it's crap.
May 01 18:42:44 <npm> it's advertising 101 from back in the '20's
May 01 18:43:27 <npm> just ask any politician :-/
May 01 18:44:08 <akk> Can I interject a development question? Is it possible in qtcreator to add additional files to the RPM, like the appname.desktop file and icon?
May 01 18:45:00 <akk> I haven't found anything with google that mentions that at all. Alternately, is there a decent howto on cmdline development for meego?
May 01 19:01:15 <Venemo> akk, I dunno if Qt Creator creates rpms at all
May 01 19:01:26 <Venemo> akk, but you could very easily do that yourself for any rpm
May 01 19:01:40 <akk> It does generate them -- it can even ssh copy them to the remote meego device and run them.
May 01 19:01:49 <Venemo> impressive
May 01 19:01:50 <akk> But it doesn't show me the rpm spec files or anything.
May 01 19:02:08 <Venemo> maybe try the INSTALLS variable in your .pro file
May 01 19:02:30 <akk> It's INSTALLS=target so I'm not really sure what that's doing.
May 01 19:02:57 <akk> Probably the thing to do is give up on qtcreator and figure out how to build qt projects from the cmdline. I'll want to do that eventually anyway.
May 01 19:03:07 <thp> Venemo: pong
May 01 19:03:35 <akk> But it's funny that the "simple development with GUI" tutorials never get as far as telling you how to make something that a user could run on the meego device.
May 01 19:03:50 <akk> (Maybe if you use the appup api or something it magically puts that in for you)
May 01 19:04:05 <Venemo> thp, can I pm you? it's a bit OT in this channel
May 01 19:04:42 <thp> Venemo: sure
May 01 19:04:52 <Venemo> akk, see INSTALLS in here: http://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/puzzle-master/blobs/master/puzzle-master.pro
May 01 19:06:20 <Venemo> akk, not sure if Qt Creator picks it up and brings it to the rpm, but it definitely _should_
May 01 19:06:24 <Venemo> akk, also see http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6/qmake-variable-reference.html#installs
May 01 19:06:48 <akk> Oh, cool! Thanks, Venemo, I'll try that.
May 01 19:07:20 <Venemo> akk, if Qt Creator doesn't pick it up, I have an rpm .spec file too that you could review and make your own :)
May 01 19:11:10 <akk> Is there a standard size for meego desktop icons?
May 01 19:15:53 <Venemo> dunno
May 01 19:16:09 <Venemo> akk, btw, does my idea work?
May 01 19:17:53 <akk> Venemo: Still setting it up, should know in a few minutes.
May 01 19:18:15 <akk> I have to make a .desktop file, think I have the rest done.
May 01 19:19:03 <Venemo> ok
May 01 19:19:22 <Venemo> akk, http://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/puzzle-master/blobs/master/data/puzzle-master.desktop
May 01 19:23:18 <akk> No -- maybe I did something wrong, but it didn't install anything in /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/applications
May 01 19:32:51 <Venemo> akk, pastebin your .pro file
May 01 19:35:29 <akk> http://pastebin.com/P81qCeFA
May 01 19:36:17 <akk> The data/ dir is in the same directory as the .cpp files and the .pro file, and it does have those two files inside.
May 01 19:39:00 <akk> Three files, I mean -- actually index.html wasn't there (the code isn't using it yet) but it is now.
May 01 19:40:58 <akk> Aha! I think I found the problem.
May 01 19:41:18 <akk> qtcreator created a shallowsky-build-meego parallel to the regular source directory the first time I built the app
May 01 19:41:32 <akk> and apparently if that dir is already there, it never copies new files to it
May 01 19:41:51 <akk> but when I removed the dir, it regenerated it and included the new files
May 01 19:42:49 <sobczyk> hi, will the developer realease of meego for n900 support skype? (voice mainly)
May 01 19:42:54 <Venemo> akk, that's nice
May 01 19:43:34 <Venemo> sobczyk, skype is a closed source thing. so if skype decides to compile their shit for MeeGo DE and makes it free of charge, then yes. otherwise nope.
May 01 20:07:54 <akk> Meego could really use some boot feedback when it does fsck.
May 01 20:08:17 * akk stares at a black screen with a blinking cursor, guessing at what it's most like doing
May 01 20:08:21 <akk> likely
May 01 20:10:37 <thiago_home> it shouldn't need to fsck
May 01 20:16:24 <mikhas> heh, has fsck actually ever helped to *restore* data?
May 01 20:17:02 <mikhas> whenever fsck found some problems on my partitions, I knew that my best bet was to actually abort fsck and copy the data to a new disk, instead of letting fsck do its job ...
May 01 20:18:06 <thiago_home> the best it does is complete deletion of deleted inodes
May 01 20:18:13 <thiago_home> deleted but still open at the time of the crash
May 01 20:23:19 <akk> okay, I guess it's doing something else when it sits for a minute on a blinking cursor after a crash.
May 01 20:28:53 <Serio__> hello fellow mmeeeegggoooos
May 01 20:30:08 <Serio__> if we have a prototype of the exopc for developement but does not have windows 7, can we with the license get a free copy?
May 01 20:30:39 <Serio__> of course down load from the net any sites?
May 01 20:31:44 <thiago_home> Serio__: we don't care about windows 7
May 01 20:32:10 <Myrtti> surely you realize this is the meego channel...
May 01 20:32:20 <Serio__> neither do i rm /th/
May 01 20:32:33 <Serio__> the thing is to sell it
May 01 20:33:04 <Myrtti> you are forbidden to sell it by the agreement signed
May 01 20:33:11 <Venemo> [22:29] <Serio__> if we have a prototype of the exopc for developement
May 01 20:33:14 <Myrtti> when you got it
May 01 20:33:19 <Venemo> for development? or for sale?
May 01 20:33:37 <Myrtti> if it is the intel device
May 01 20:33:46 <berndhs> Serio__: dont sell it, send it to me, I need one :)
May 01 20:34:00 <Serio__> do you know if the new linux distro supports touch?
May 01 20:34:12 <Serio__> 11.4
May 01 20:34:22 <Myrtti> the new linix distro? errrr
May 01 20:34:35 <Serio__> linux is better
May 01 20:34:35 <Venemo> Serio__, which distro?
May 01 20:34:45 <Myrtti> you mean the new release of ubuntu?
May 01 20:34:47 <Serio__> the long term that just came out
May 01 20:34:56 <Venemo> I thought this is a MeeGo channel
May 01 20:34:59 <Serio__> they had a party in sf ca
May 01 20:35:12 <Myrtti> lts ubuntu came last year
May 01 20:35:14 <Venemo> noone here cares about nor Windows 7, neither Ubuntu
May 01 20:35:15 <Serio__> yeah and meego is based on linux
May 01 20:35:19 <keks-n> Hi
May 01 20:35:37 <keks-n> I'm trying to compile the kernel
May 01 20:35:41 <Serio__> do ur homework
May 01 20:35:46 <keks-n> lol
May 01 20:36:09 <Serio__> keks yeah thats a good work to do
May 01 20:36:19 <keks-n> -_-
May 01 20:36:29 <Myrtti> Serio__: I think you have skipped some classes yourself
May 01 20:36:40 <keks-n> I just want to change the kernel command line
May 01 20:37:04 <keks-n> It's hardcoded in the config
May 01 20:37:15 <Venemo> keks-n, ignore that guy.
May 01 20:37:24 <Serio__> user memory seperated from the kernal memory running different processes in the cores of the atom
May 01 20:37:30 <keks-n> But I'm unfortunately a newbie in cross-compiling
May 01 20:37:34 <Venemo> Serio__, what is a 'kernal'?
May 01 20:37:47 <keks-n> Tried to compile in the scratchbox, but failed
May 01 20:38:22 <Venemo> http://wiki.meego.com/Recompile_kernel
May 01 20:38:31 <Serio__> its the root/base that seperates the hardware and software
May 01 20:38:34 <Venemo> http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_kernel_documentation_for_contributors
May 01 20:38:37 <Venemo> Serio__, nope
May 01 20:38:44 <Venemo> Serio__, that is a 'kernel', and not a 'kernal'
May 01 20:38:56 <keks-n> I've already read it
May 01 20:38:57 <Serio__> childs play
May 01 20:39:10 <keks-n> Now I have the patched source tree
May 01 20:39:32 <keks-n> I've copied the config from config-arm-generic-n900
May 01 20:39:41 <keks-n> And typed make bzImage modules
May 01 20:40:00 <Venemo> keks-n, Stskeeps may be a person who can help, he is working on the N900 adaptation
May 01 20:40:14 <keks-n> Hm
May 01 20:40:26 <lcuk> keks-n, have you built kernel for other systems before?
May 01 20:40:32 <keks-n> yep
May 01 20:40:42 <Serio__> which?
May 01 20:40:46 <lcuk> ok so you are already comfortable with the usual stuff
May 01 20:41:13 <Serio__> embedded?
May 01 20:41:14 <keks-n> I've even backported a module from upstream, lol
May 01 20:41:29 <Serio__> lol
May 01 20:41:40 <keks-n> But I'm a newbie in cross-compilation
May 01 20:41:51 <lcuk> try putting some soothing music on
May 01 20:41:58 <lcuk> it should make you less cross
May 01 20:42:11 <Venemo> lol lcuk
May 01 20:42:32 <Venemo> lcuk, your sense of humor always manages to surprise me
May 01 20:42:40 <Serio__> keks...keep it S3RIO
May 01 20:42:49 <lcuk> I tend to surprise many people with many things
May 01 20:42:56 <Serio__> thats serious in spanish
May 01 20:43:22 <lcuk> keks-n, so have you done any cross compilation of normal apps before now?
May 01 20:43:43 <lcuk> ie built a qt or gtk app and package from it etc
May 01 20:44:08 <keks-n> I've built Mono runtime under scratchbox
May 01 20:44:40 <keks-n> I had to fight with qemu's "Unsupported syscall" issue, but I've done it
May 01 20:45:50 <keks-n> The problem is that I _want_ this kernel to compile under scratchbox
May 01 20:46:19 <keks-n> Not under toolchains or something like that
May 01 20:48:16 <keks-n> Now I get "arch/arm/mach-omap2/board-rx51-peripherals.c:615: error: variable 'rx51_si4713_i2c_data' has initializer but incomplete type" and have no idea what to do with it
May 01 20:48:18 <lcuk> keks-n, IDK, and scratchbox itself is not a meego thing
May 01 20:48:44 <Venemo> keks-n, MeeGo's kernel won't work in Maemo, so no point in compiling it under SB
May 01 20:48:45 <keks-n> I know. But I hope that MeeGo kernel has working kexec
May 01 20:48:57 <lcuk> I think you can just have kernel as an OBS project and built it there
May 01 20:49:16 * lcuk waves hands a bit
May 01 20:50:21 <keks-n> static struct si4713_platform_data rx51_si4713_i2c_data = {
May 01 20:50:21 <keks-n>         .gpio_reset     = RX51_FMTX_RESET_GPIO,
May 01 20:50:21 <keks-n> };
May 01 20:50:21 <keks-n> lol
May 01 20:51:14 <lcuk> Venemo, the other night I tried building your game on my n900
May 01 20:51:22 <lcuk> following your instructions
May 01 20:51:34 <lcuk> rpmbuild is not built in by default
May 01 20:52:25 <Venemo> rpmbuild should be on the SDK
May 01 20:52:44 <Venemo> it's probably not installed on the device, for the same reason dpkg-buildpackage is not installed on Maemo :)
May 01 20:53:01 <lcuk> slightly different reasoning
May 01 20:53:34 <lcuk> dpkg-buildpackage is not installable on maemo because of busybox and other different things
May 01 20:53:49 <Venemo> afaik it's installable
May 01 20:53:51 <Venemo> anyway
May 01 20:54:00 <lcuk> on meego, with the correct zypper line any device is capable of being self SDK
May 01 20:54:06 <Venemo> I bet you could install rpmbuild on your MeeGo anyway :)
May 01 20:54:06 <keks-n> lolwut. dpkg-buildpackage can run on the device
May 01 20:54:15 <lcuk> Venemo, of course it can be
May 01 20:54:43 <lcuk> it just means your instructions are a bit incomplete and need tweaking
May 01 20:54:49 <Venemo> yeah
May 01 20:55:05 <lcuk> keks-n, different issue, dpkg stuff is afaik not a part of meego
May 01 20:55:07 <Venemo> if you take it that way, then yeah.
May 01 20:55:31 <keks-n> lcuk, try to use alien, lol
May 01 20:56:02 <keks-n> It can convert from deb to rpm
May 01 20:56:05 <lcuk> Venemo, I always try to follow positive thinking. :)
May 01 20:56:17 <Venemo> lcuk :)
May 01 20:57:08 <Venemo> lcuk, so, extend my instructions with this section: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/A_Short_RPM_Tutorial#Development_environment
May 01 20:57:18 <Venemo> and replace 'yum' with 'zypper'
May 01 20:57:43 <lcuk> Venemo, when I boot meego de on my n900 tomorrow I will find the little extra bits needed so that it will run
May 01 20:58:07 <Venemo> okay, thanks lcuk
May 01 20:58:09 <lcuk> like I said to you when you first mentioned it, its a matter of dependencies
May 01 20:58:29 <Venemo> indeed
May 01 20:59:12 * lcuk still awestruck by haircut yesterday
May 01 21:03:30 <keks-n> Wow. I just added some includes and it continued compiling
May 01 21:04:03 <lcuk> keks-n, same as lots of things
May 02 02:02:30 <akk> Anybody use QWebView? I'm having trouble getting it to work, looking for an example that definitely works on MeeGo.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 02 02:59:57 2011