**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 14 02:59:57 2011 Jun 14 05:59:34 stskeeps: Any news on the UX direction for the N900 CE? Jun 14 05:59:49 in terms of? Jun 14 05:59:57 (and we can discuss this in #meego-arm :) Jun 14 07:26:45 Moorning, all Jun 14 07:26:51 morn jaffa Jun 14 07:26:53 still in sweden? Jun 14 07:27:30 Stskeeps: Yup Jun 14 07:27:35 Stskeeps: Back Thursday evening Jun 14 08:46:30 morning Jun 14 09:26:39 VERSION Jun 14 09:32:22 Are the pre 1.3 images usable ? Jun 14 09:32:28 thinking of installing Jun 14 09:32:44 on the ideapad (netbook Jun 14 09:32:45 ) Jun 14 09:32:50 gah, curse these hands Jun 14 09:43:06 slaine, try the live mode? Jun 14 10:53:56 i once found what i remember was a wiki? of progress with meego on nvidia - including a repo. anyone know where i may find this. i cant find it anymore Jun 14 10:54:14 forum.meego.com has a guide somewhere Jun 14 10:54:40 and my bugs server prolly the image ;) Jun 14 10:54:41 hmm ill have another look but i just came from there. Jun 14 11:00:42 http://bug10738.openaos.org/images/tegra2/ Jun 14 11:00:44 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10738 nor, Undecided, ---, tero.kojo, NEED, Meego community ftp server or similar needed Jun 14 11:02:20 Howto: MeeGo on nVidia http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=2117 Jun 14 11:02:27 old, possibly wrong link Jun 14 11:02:41 damian_-_, please let me know if that is sort of thing needed Jun 14 11:03:02 and comment on the thread if so, enough people ask about nvidia Jun 14 11:03:16 having a good source to point them towards will be helpful Jun 14 11:03:49 dm8tbr, the images there are only a part of it - perhaps also adding link to the tegra image on that thread would be useful? Jun 14 11:04:21 lcuk: I don't see a kickstart with that image, that makes me cringe... Jun 14 11:04:35 also as it's now what almost 3 months old? Jun 14 11:08:09 sure dm8tbr, was just a thought Jun 14 11:18:17 icuk, will come in handy thanks. im gonna give it a shot now Jun 14 11:19:44 another question. i have been running meego on a netbook but find a lack of apps.. can we put intel appup on meego or can it support for example the apt system Jun 14 11:26:09 for questions about appup ask intel... Jun 14 11:26:34 and 'apt' would not help you, what you need are repositories with adapted software Jun 14 11:26:57 community OBS is a place where many things will happen Jun 14 11:31:20 ok, sorry whats obs Jun 14 11:33:05 a complicated and difficult to use way of building software that stops working when the remote server goes down Jun 14 12:12:08 * lbt_hel stabs ali1234 Jun 14 12:26:51 ali1234, and the alternative (to your obs comment) would be? Jun 14 12:27:43 well fixing meego so it can actually compile it's own packages would be a start Jun 14 12:31:55 ali1234, "it's" != "its" Jun 14 12:33:20 Word 2010 has taught me that Jun 14 12:34:10 :) Jun 14 12:34:54 * CosmoHill needs to have a clear up cos his server has ran out of space Jun 14 12:35:48 ali1234, MeeGo itself can Jun 14 12:35:59 I have gcc and the development pattern on my ideapad Jun 14 12:36:03 the problem is: time Jun 14 12:36:09 doing the same is feasible on the n900 Jun 14 12:36:20 lcuk: you mean meego itself in theory can, except on the broken packages where it doesn't work, which nobody wants to fix Jun 14 12:36:28 but native compiling of anything but the most streamlined optimal small apps takes an age on ARM Jun 14 12:37:58 you don't want to compile anything more difficult than a hello world on your N900... Jun 14 12:39:17 Venemo_N900, :) then liqbase is the biggest hello world in the world ;) Jun 14 12:40:19 i wonder why you are asking for an alternative to OBS when OBS has literally no advantages over NOT using OBS for developers who are just making a single package Jun 14 12:40:27 lcuk, liqbase doesn't really count because you specifically optimized its compilation speed :P Jun 14 12:40:32 in your case the alternative is simply: don't use OBS Jun 14 12:40:53 Venemo_N900, no, I just started with components and elements that worked Jun 14 12:41:03 btw, I why did MeeGo choose OBS over Koji? Jun 14 12:41:34 * CosmoHill is using MeeGo as a live host for CLFS Jun 14 12:41:47 CLFS=? Jun 14 12:42:05 Cross Linux From Scratch (http://cross-lfs.org) Jun 14 12:42:15 mhm Jun 14 12:42:25 why not http://annoyed-lfs.org ? Jun 14 12:46:34 lcuk: It's funnier if you link to an existing url. Jun 14 12:47:16 * CosmoHill bops ju Jun 14 12:47:18 * CosmoHill bops juliank Jun 14 12:47:20 juliank, does it make you angry? Jun 14 13:16:18 Reminder: Community Office Meeting starting in 45 minutes: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Meetings#Next_CO_meeting Jun 14 13:16:24 in #meego-meeting Jun 14 13:23:27 * lcuk kicks his slow internet Jun 14 13:23:34 todays image is taking an age to download Jun 14 13:28:00 ali1234: for development plain rpmbuild is enough. OBS makes sense once you want to target more than your own localhost. Jun 14 13:28:18 i know this Jun 14 13:28:36 the problem is that rpmbuild often doesn't work because the packages are broken Jun 14 13:29:06 and obs only makes sense when you are making an entire hardware adaption Jun 14 13:29:38 i would be really surprised if rpmbuild worked for broken packages :D Jun 14 13:29:48 that's just stating the obvious :) Jun 14 13:31:16 not all of the packages are broken Jun 14 13:31:26 when I was packaging widelands for meego I wasn't making whole hardware adaptation. but I wanted rpms for MeeGo 1.0 and 1.1, both i586 and ARM. without OBS building them would be plain PITA Jun 14 13:32:35 i packaged it for my local arch and version, and OBS did the rest Jun 14 13:33:32 what did OBS really do though? Jun 14 13:34:05 does t have access to packages that are not available in a meego install? Jun 14 13:34:12 compilers? Jun 14 13:34:20 built packages for different MeeGo versions and architectures than I had on my machine Jun 14 13:34:33 why can this only be done on a remote server? Jun 14 13:34:47 doing the same toying with cross compilers, chroots, qemu etc manually would be major PITA Jun 14 13:35:00 only because meego is broken Jun 14 13:35:20 smoku, ali1234 - finding optimal compiler mechanism Jun 14 13:35:26 and let end users download source Jun 14 13:35:27 :) Jun 14 13:35:34 maemo SDK provides scratchbox environment to automate this on your machine Jun 14 13:35:35 dynamic compilation Jun 14 13:35:38 even MS .net does it Jun 14 13:35:52 you are missing the point Jun 14 13:35:54 i used both, and OBS is pure pleasure compared to scratchbox Jun 14 13:36:01 hi Jun 14 13:36:09 CO meeting is in 30 mins, right? Jun 14 13:36:13 where is the package in meego repos that install a full OBS server? Jun 14 13:36:26 smoku: You shouldn't even mention this hacky scratchy boxy thingy Jun 14 13:36:30 where is the command which clones the meego OBS to my own private server? Jun 14 13:36:33 dneary, 25 minutes according to when DawnFoster mentioned it and when we are now Jun 14 13:36:57 ali1234: there are instructions on the wiki Jun 14 13:36:58 lcuk, I think you're in the universe that's 5 minutes ahead of me Jun 14 13:37:18 ali1234: nowadays it's easier to use obs linking though IIRC Jun 14 13:37:20 People should either (in that order): (a) compile native | (b) compile emulated | (c) cross-compile Jun 14 13:37:45 dm8tbr: linking puts you at the mercy of the main server not to go down Jun 14 13:38:04 dneary, http://liqbase.net/liq.20110614_143607.ciroclock_minutes_12h_time.scr.png Jun 14 13:38:05 that's the main problem i have with OBS Jun 14 13:38:10 ali1234: you are free to copy a full release to your local obs then... Jun 14 13:38:16 People should never ever run some commands natively and some emulated without OS support for doing this Jun 14 13:38:32 lcuk, Is that your handwriting font? Jun 14 13:38:39 dm8tbr: you might as well say "you're free to go and write your own distro from scratch" because its roughly as easy as setting up a private OBS Jun 14 13:38:40 ali1234, "OCS" or "OSC" is a local build version Jun 14 13:38:43 ali1234, the rule of thumb is this: 1) use rpmbuild for your own local builds 2) use the build service if you want to build/distribute it to others Jun 14 13:38:46 lcuk, You're definitely in a different universe to me. Jun 14 13:38:53 that downloads everything needed for offline use Jun 14 13:38:54 ali1234: obs is open source. you can satup your own on your localhost. Jun 14 13:38:56 My clocks are tuned to the Caesium Jun 14 13:39:06 :-) Jun 14 13:39:07 ali1234: orly? did you? because I did it 3 times already... Jun 14 13:39:09 dneary, yes it is my handwriting, and all the clocks in hosue show that time Jun 14 13:39:19 house ^ Jun 14 13:39:35 http://www.thetimenow.com/ Jun 14 13:39:39 dm8tbr: which? make my own distro, or setup an OBS server? Jun 14 13:39:45 setup obs Jun 14 13:39:51 yes, i've done it a couple of times Jun 14 13:40:11 dneary, your ceasium might be accurate for keeping time, but if you start from the wrong offset ;) Jun 14 13:40:14 tbh i found bootstrapping gcc and glibc to be easier Jun 14 13:40:38 lcuk, Of course, I'm chain-yanking. I was just being imprecise when I said it'll be on in 30 mins Jun 14 13:40:55 but setting up an OBS is only half the picture Jun 14 13:41:07 even after you;ve got the thing working you still then only have a completely empty server Jun 14 13:41:09 dneary, either way the meeting is "soon" Jun 14 13:41:12 the longest thing about setting up OBS is the rsync of a full meego release (unless you are on a really fast connection) Jun 14 13:41:12 dneary: 20' 40" Jun 14 13:42:03 dneary: how's it going with the wallpapering? Jun 14 13:42:03 and even when you've got a full mirror you are still left wondering: what does this thing actually do for me? Jun 14 13:42:15 gabrbedd, Back to work Jun 14 13:42:30 Finished 2.5 walls of the 2nd bedroom yesterday Jun 14 13:42:33 ali1234: I really start to wonder if you're just trolling though... Jun 14 13:42:37 And another 1 wall to go Jun 14 13:42:46 * gabrbedd prefers paint :-) Jun 14 13:42:54 With a window & radiator in it :( Jun 14 13:42:56 dm8tbr: i'm just passing time while i wait for meego 1.2 to download so i can see if any of the bugs i reported in 1.1 were fixed Jun 14 13:43:20 ali1234, generally checking bugs.meego.com for your bugs would be simple too Jun 14 13:43:21 gabrbedd, Is that you 5k time? Jun 14 13:43:22 ok, excuse me while I stop feeding you then and do some valuable stuff... Jun 14 13:43:29 dneary: ewwwww.... that makes it more interesting. Jun 14 13:43:49 gabrbedd, I did OK with the radiator on Sunday Jun 14 13:44:00 There's a 3rd room to do at some stage too Jun 14 13:44:39 dneary: no, my 5k time would be a bit higher than that. Jun 14 13:44:49 lcuk: checking bmo is usually not a good way to see if the bugs are fixed, because there are so many people without a clue marking stuff "works for me" Jun 14 13:45:19 ali1234, well if things to work for them, you either filed the bug wrong or are being over clinical Jun 14 13:45:22 dneary: your home? Jun 14 13:45:36 lcuk: or they're an idiot and they didn't read the steps to reproduce properly Jun 14 13:45:38 gabrbedd, Yes Jun 14 13:45:53 ali1234, can you show me a bug where they did this ? Jun 14 13:46:05 I haven't seen much in the way of idiots operating bugzille Jun 14 13:46:06 a Jun 14 13:47:12 and if the teams are not working correctly and misjudging bugs importance when you spent time filing them, then something could be looked at Jun 14 13:47:21 lcuk: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12816 Jun 14 13:47:24 Bug 12816 enh, Undecided, ---, gavin.hindman, NEW, [FEA] No option to install without bootloader step Jun 14 13:47:51 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14307 Jun 14 13:47:53 Bug 14307 nor, Medium, ---, kai.chai, RESO WORKSFORME, kernel build with rpmbuild fails during prep Jun 14 13:48:02 (that's the one i'm going to test today) Jun 14 13:48:31 if the installation wipes out your triple boot Jun 14 13:48:36 then how do you test properly Jun 14 13:48:52 this is why i am only just getting around to testing 1.2 Jun 14 13:49:00 if they fixed that bug i would have tested it before now Jun 14 13:49:03 and since you are already knowledable enough to manage triple booting (I get headfunk double booting) Jun 14 13:49:06 but as i explained at the time Jun 14 13:49:13 if you make testing be a PITA then i'm not going to test Jun 14 13:49:28 ali1234: Do you know how to save/restore your MBR? Jun 14 13:49:34 yes Jun 14 13:49:37 to be honest ali1234 - how many people triple (or even dual) boot? Jun 14 13:49:46 ok. Jun 14 13:50:12 your assertion to simply make an advanced option is not a bug fix Jun 14 13:50:16 lcuk: how many people actually test the images and report bugs? Jun 14 13:50:17 but a whole new area Jun 14 13:50:36 lcuk: Are you arguing against the validity of 12816? Jun 14 13:50:38 hence the addition of #FEA for 1.3 proposal Jun 14 13:50:40 no Jun 14 13:50:41 lcuk: how many people do you want to test the images and report bugs? if the answer to that question is "0" then please, keep making excuses for why the installer sucks Jun 14 13:50:49 I am wondering how many people it impacts Jun 14 13:51:07 lcuk: Mostly devs. I know it impacts me. Jun 14 13:51:28 * lcuk sees no votes Jun 14 13:51:32 and heard about this only today Jun 14 13:51:50 lcuk: If I want to use a bootloader other than meego, I have to save/restore the MBR. Jun 14 13:52:05 it impacts me too Jun 14 13:52:10 me too Jun 14 13:52:18 gabrbedd, how would this be changed, isthere a specific way to cure it? Jun 14 13:52:23 lcuk: In the case of the Windows bootloader, it can totally bork your system because you won't be able to do a system restore after MeeGo fiddles with the MBR. Jun 14 13:52:24 VOTE FOR THE BUGS THAT IMPACT YOU. Jun 14 13:52:33 other linux distros are polite in that they allow skipping the bootloader stuff Jun 14 13:53:33 I voted for it, but I do not understand the issue because I am not technical enough to dualboot Jun 14 13:53:41 how do you vote on a bug? Jun 14 13:53:47 click the vote button on the bug Jun 14 13:53:50 lcuk: anyway the reason i linked you to that bug was because of the way auke flat out told me that i was wrong, and the option existed, and then i had to reopen it after making a series of screenshots proving that it's not there any more Jun 14 13:53:59 i fully expect to have to do the same thing with the other bug Jun 14 13:54:13 * gabrbedd votes Jun 14 13:54:17 ali1234, no qualms and obviously from what I just heard here the bug does matter Jun 14 13:54:31 lcuk: Honestly... does anyone check the votes? Jun 14 13:54:33 it's not about the importance or how many people it affects Jun 14 13:54:49 just because it only affects one person does not change the fact it's a bug Jun 14 13:54:59 ali1234: ++ Jun 14 13:55:00 so where is the vote button? Jun 14 13:55:20 gabrbedd, well hearing how passionately ali1234 was I expected at least someone else to have been voting for it Jun 14 13:55:28 lol Jun 14 13:55:41 lcuk: I haven't been in the habit of voting for bugs. Jun 14 13:55:41 i haven't looked at this stuff for 2 months Jun 14 13:55:45 there are no comments from other people Jun 14 13:55:46 etc Jun 14 13:55:47 i don't really care if it's fixed or not Jun 14 13:56:01 lcuk: where is the vote button? Jun 14 13:56:07 gabrbedd, it helps someway even if it is "ali1234 spoke to me, and I agree this bug mattered" Jun 14 13:56:10 lcuk: In fact, I was thinking "If a bunch of people are CC'ed on the bug... isn't that like a vote" Jun 14 13:56:12 I may be going blind Jun 14 13:56:16 lcuk: that doesnt make it unimportant, should people just comment "me too" ? Jun 14 13:56:20 https://bugs.meego.com/votes.cgi?action=show_user&bug_id=12816#vote_12816 Jun 14 13:56:27 berndhs, no Jun 14 13:56:28 Community Office Meeting starting in #meego-meeting in 5 minutes :) http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Meetings#Next_CO_meeting Jun 14 13:56:38 actually i htink people *should* comment "me too" Jun 14 13:56:41 gabrbedd, I look at both things Jun 14 13:56:46 his bug had neither Jun 14 13:56:47 lcuk: Also it doesn't impact me /that/ much, since I know how to work around it and I avoid dual-boot on dev machines. :-) Jun 14 13:56:48 isn't that adviced against? Jun 14 13:56:57 mostly bugs that effect people have numerous comments and discussions and votes Jun 14 13:57:00 it's just my opinion though Jun 14 13:57:03 that had none of the above Jun 14 13:57:16 villev: what? dual boot? Jun 14 13:57:17 gabrbedd, you have to work around it Jun 14 13:57:28 wiping the boot loader makes installation a real pain Jun 14 13:57:30 gabrbedd: ME TOO on bugzillae Jun 14 13:57:48 lcuk: btw i voted for the other bug which combines with this one to be SUPER ANNOYING Jun 14 13:57:50 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5266 Jun 14 13:57:53 Bug 5266 nor, Medium, ---, need-triage, NEW, Changing the default OS in "boot loader operating systems" in anaconda installer has no effect Jun 14 13:58:43 but seriously, should the bug reporter really have to vote for their own bugs just to prove they care? isn't reporting it enough? Jun 14 13:58:58 ali1234, talking french really with bootloader things, I can try to explain how to make your bugs matter but unless this problem exists on a straight simple install I am not going to encounter it Jun 14 13:59:06 ali1234, no Jun 14 13:59:25 but *talking* about it and trying to find people who may be able to advance it does. Jun 14 13:59:41 like gabrbedd did, he followed his bugs into the tablet triage meetings Jun 14 13:59:46 you should be doing the same :P Jun 14 13:59:55 tablet? what? Jun 14 13:59:59 ok, they could make the "vote" button bigger Jun 14 13:59:59 this is a netbook bug Jun 14 14:00:19 besides, i don't have time to play bug advocate Jun 14 14:00:21 ali1234, I was saying what gabrbedd did, there are regular bug triage meetings Jun 14 14:00:29 where you can bring up bugs which ummm bug you. Jun 14 14:00:51 it doesn't bug me Jun 14 14:00:54 ali1234, you have spent long enough now doing it :) hope it advances them Jun 14 14:00:57 it prevents me from testing images Jun 14 14:01:12 but it's not like i don't have more interesting things to do anyway Jun 14 14:01:31 at the end of the day, it's no skin off my nose if it is never fixed Jun 14 14:01:35 ali1234, what inside the image do you test against? Jun 14 14:01:48 what do you mean? Jun 14 14:01:58 ali1234: lcuk Actually, attending the triage didn't help much.... except that they advised me to propose the bug as a release blocker. Jun 14 14:02:01 well you say you cannot test Jun 14 14:02:04 like i said, today i'm going to check if the kernel package can be compiled by rpmbuild yet Jun 14 14:02:05 TwimGo.desktop: error: value "2.8.4" for key "Version" in group "Desktop Entry" is not a known version Jun 14 14:02:12 what would you be doing if it booted up Jun 14 14:02:13 uh, I didn't know it was this picky Jun 14 14:02:29 lcuk: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14307 Jun 14 14:02:32 Bug 14307 nor, Medium, ---, kai.chai, RESO WORKSFORME, kernel build with rpmbuild fails during prep Jun 14 14:02:34 * gabrbedd goes to community meegint :-) Jun 14 14:02:41 has full steps that will test in the "steps to reproduce" section Jun 14 14:03:37 community meeting now in #meego-meeting Jun 14 14:03:39 community meeting now in #meego-meeting Jun 14 14:04:37 now? Jun 14 14:04:42 oh my :( Jun 14 14:05:22 oh i suppose I can go look what they say Jun 14 14:06:24 hey gang. just got out of job interview Jun 14 14:06:42 need to leave home soon, so can't participate Jun 14 14:10:36 Texrat: yay! did it go ok? Jun 14 14:13:05 gabrbedd I have a good feeling about it :) Jun 14 14:15:11 Texrat, an offline job? Jun 14 14:15:15 * lcuk being pushed that way Jun 14 14:15:44 lcuk, it's a systems support role with NSN Jun 14 14:16:05 oh cool Jun 14 14:25:24 ferenc you on this channel? Jun 14 14:30:20 ping Texrat Jun 14 14:30:35 ping ferenc ;) Jun 14 14:31:03 listen: it looks like my job situation might be improving. Which means I will have more time to devote to meego, etc... Jun 14 14:31:37 so ferenc, FYI I will be in touch to talk about developing a generic version of the community device program further Jun 14 14:32:30 Texrat: ok, fine. I was thinking to turn off the app we put up some months ago... Jun 14 14:32:57 Texrat: but that's a very good news that your job situation will improve :) Jun 14 14:35:29 thanks ferenc. mshaver has launched the drupal app for MeeGo but it would be nice if you could maintain a sandbox Jun 14 14:35:55 Texrat: we can talk about it Jun 14 14:36:56 ferenc: great Jun 14 14:41:47 Texrat: could you send an email to the -dev or -community list about your thoughts of the devprogram stuff and how the application I wrote can be connected? Jun 14 14:41:51 hoi hoi Jun 14 14:42:40 Can anybody tell me, why dm devices are not supported? Jun 14 14:42:55 i use devicemapper for mic2 in meego, i'm sure it's supported? Jun 14 14:43:27 ah i meant luks devices Jun 14 14:43:45 send a patch? :) Jun 14 14:43:59 it should be supported with ease, but noone implemented it yet Jun 14 14:44:57 alterego, heh Jun 14 14:45:09 the contacts import is just something simple to make people feel more welcome Jun 14 14:45:26 that is not life changing, but adds colour to the n900-CE experience Jun 14 14:45:29 sure ferenc Jun 14 14:46:10 Stskeeps: actually that has already been fixed, just meego uses an older version of anaconda that had trouble with luks devices Jun 14 14:46:23 Texrat: ok, let's continue on the list. Thanks. Jun 14 14:50:25 Guys, the Lenovo IdeaPad, did anyone get any RAM upgrades for theirs ? Jun 14 14:50:33 didn't try, didn't have the need Jun 14 14:51:00 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2554 <-- Oww c'mon, this can't be called fixed m( Jun 14 14:51:03 Bug 2554 cri, Medium, ---, yu.a.wang, RESO FIXED, Anaconda hangs on "Finding storage devices" on HD with LUKS partition Jun 14 14:51:06 I got one via Crucial bit their wizard specified DDR2 SO-DIMMS and it looks like this one actually has DDR3 SO-DIMMS Jun 14 14:51:14 s/bit/but Jun 14 14:51:58 airmack: 1.0 bug Jun 14 14:52:08 airmack: file one for 1.2 Jun 14 14:52:14 1.2 Jun 14 14:52:24 no, 2554's marked as 1.2 Jun 14 14:52:25 err.. Jun 14 14:52:26 `1.0 Jun 14 14:52:39 it is still true in 1.2 Jun 14 14:53:03 yes, i know, but i don't think this bug is noted in 1.2 bugtracker :P Jun 14 14:53:16 airmack: usually RESOLVED/FIXED means that the fix is in Trunk:Testing, not any of the snapshot builds. Jun 14 14:53:51 airmack: After it gets VERIFIED then it goes to the stable snapshots. Jun 14 14:54:06 airmack: At least, that's how I think the process is working. :-) Jun 14 14:54:28 well the 'fix' is already part of 1.2 and was part of 1.1 Jun 14 14:54:45 but just poping up a window telling the installation will abort ist not really a fix Jun 14 14:54:52 indeed Jun 14 14:55:08 + the installation is not cleanly shutting down Jun 14 14:55:36 airmack: true. Jun 14 14:55:37 it keeps the X11 server in an unusable state Jun 14 14:55:57 meaning you have to drop to the tty and manually reboot Jun 14 14:57:14 and is there any reason for starting an sshd during/before the installation? Jun 14 15:01:39 let the after meeting party commence! Jun 14 15:01:47 bergie: Agreed with the stamping Jun 14 15:02:13 about apps Jun 14 15:02:20 can non-qt apps be considered compliant? Jun 14 15:02:24 dneary did you see the link I posted? Jun 14 15:02:58 *now to log off & drive into work* :) Jun 14 15:03:22 DawnFoster, IRC/N900/Jogging Jun 14 15:03:23 lcuk: yes. However... Jun 14 15:03:51 lcuk: They're considered "Platform API Compliant" -- which comes with fewer guarantees. Jun 14 15:04:23 well apps themselves even in qt might be complaint but not feasible for all the UXes Jun 14 15:04:33 take for example Maemo Contacts Import Jun 14 15:04:43 technically fully compliant Jun 14 15:05:00 based on being qt, but does not work as expected on other uxes Jun 14 15:05:46 Texrat, The one with slides? Jun 14 15:11:08 yes dneary Jun 14 15:11:24 lcuk: Yes, it's possible to be compliant but it not work right on different UX's. Jun 14 15:11:40 lcuk: But in the case of MCI, why doesn't it work in other UX's? Jun 14 15:11:42 Texrat, Yes, I saw it Jun 14 15:11:55 gabrbedd, what is MCI Jun 14 15:11:59 Not sure that's the best way to go (you know I don't like stock slides ;) ) Jun 14 15:12:00 ok dneary hope that content helps Jun 14 15:12:05 Maemo Contacts Import Jun 14 15:12:13 well dneary it's a start Jun 14 15:12:18 But definitely makes it easier to throw a presentation together Jun 14 15:12:21 Texrat, Indeed Jun 14 15:12:34 I think that recruiting speakers is the way to go. Jun 14 15:12:37 gabrbedd, it possibly will to be fair Jun 14 15:12:39 dneary agreed Jun 14 15:12:41 s/the/a good/ Jun 14 15:12:41 dneary meant: I think that recruiting speakers is a good way to go. Jun 14 15:12:48 generic "point app at folder containing vcards" app Jun 14 15:13:07 dneary, how to get around issue of projectors Jun 14 15:13:17 and requirement for powerpoint over live demo Jun 14 15:13:41 I have had enough issues with video out Jun 14 15:13:51 anyway guys for those who missed it, I interviewed with NSN early this morning and I think my chances are good :D Jun 14 15:13:58 lcuk: Some things have to be covered by UI guidelines -- which have been wanting so far. Jun 14 15:14:03 lcuk, I think that a presentation has to be adjusted for the audience, and has to be prepared in advance Jun 14 15:14:04 so I might get my life back! soon Jun 14 15:14:13 dneary, of course Jun 14 15:14:21 Texrat: good news, keep you off the street :) Jun 14 15:14:31 feh berndhs Jun 14 15:14:35 What's NSN? Jun 14 15:14:38 The slides are the last step of a presentation, the first is "what do these people want from me?" or "what question do these people have that I can answer?" Jun 14 15:14:44 Gentlemen, have a nice day! Jun 14 15:14:49 alterego it's Nokia Siemens networks Jun 14 15:14:54 Ah, cool Jun 14 15:15:01 G'luck :) Jun 14 15:15:05 ty Jun 14 15:15:15 should know in 2 or 3 days Jun 14 15:15:18 lcuk, If the question is "I've heard of this MeeGo thing - it's a phone OS isn't it? Why should I care when iOS and Android make me wet my pants with joy already?" Jun 14 15:15:26 Well, thet might be a tough audience Jun 14 15:15:36 I've got an interview on thursday :) Jun 14 15:15:41 Hope it goes well Jun 14 15:16:05 hmm how do I make madde use the 1.2 toolchain version? it tries to use meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.0-linux_x86_64.tar.gz, but the packages provide meego-1.2-sdk-ia32-toolchain-1.2-linux_x86_64.tar.gz ? Jun 14 15:16:09 dneary, I can answer that :) Jun 14 15:16:50 dneary: who's the audience, users or vendors? Jun 14 15:16:58 dneary: You can never be sure what question your audience might want answering - it might be "what's a PNG?" ;-) Jun 14 15:17:00 Because users shouldn't care :) Jun 14 15:17:11 * alterego chuckles Jun 14 15:17:21 alterego, Exactly Jun 14 15:17:26 What does the 'Q' stand for? Jun 14 15:17:43 "Awesome" Jun 14 15:18:37 give them something they cannot have in android or ios Jun 14 15:18:49 alterego, So, since the slides need doing for every audience, and since bullet points are called that because they make the audience want to shoot themselves, presenters should start with the audience and the story they want to tell them, and then do slides that reinforce that story & key point Jun 14 15:19:20 lcuk, If your audience are mobile application developers, they only have one question: "where's the market?" Jun 14 15:19:26 And right now you can't answer that Jun 14 15:19:33 I can Jun 14 15:19:38 Ah Jun 14 15:19:41 I have been listening to it for over 10 years Jun 14 15:19:43 * alterego points over there. Jun 14 15:19:44 "In 2014"? Jun 14 15:21:04 I have spent time in the market and as a simpleton myself feel I am part of it. It is a market of people who think computers are complex and overwhelming Jun 14 15:21:30 a place where people still write on wall calendars and fill in greeting cards and postcards by hand Jun 14 15:21:44 alterego I hope your interview goes well also! Jun 14 15:21:46 a market which is actually *bigger* than the ipad/iphone market Jun 14 15:21:54 because we are an aging generation Jun 14 15:22:21 lcuk, So - when I say "where is the market", I mean it in a Ron Tillsley kind of way Jun 14 15:22:26 "Show me the money!" Jun 14 15:22:29 I don't know who that is Jun 14 15:22:35 Texrat: thanks Jun 14 15:22:37 oh, that is easy Jun 14 15:22:43 go into John Lewis Jun 14 15:22:44 dneary, if I may: "show me the money NOW" ;) Jun 14 15:23:33 dneary: maybe a good promotional point would be to advertise ISV requirements for adaptation engineers, and UX designers for product UX branding? Jun 14 15:23:53 Apps are involved in that process, but maybe not concentrating on an actual app market just yet. Jun 14 15:24:42 apps are useless without the bread and butter experience Jun 14 15:24:43 dneary: Texrat: n8willis's MeeGe article on linux.com might be a good starting place. Jun 14 15:25:06 I thought he did a good job of answering the question, "Why should I care about MeeGo?" Jun 14 15:25:09 dneary, safe as milk. you need the core experience to be solid and worthwhile - apps are just frosting on the top Jun 14 15:25:17 MeeGe? Jun 14 15:25:26 gabrbedd, he did for many, but not for the impatient ones Jun 14 15:25:38 ie stockholders and CEOs ;) Jun 14 15:26:10 Texrat: how many stockholders and CEO's do you plan to encounter in these presentations? Jun 14 15:26:12 lcuk, All I'm saying is, if you're pitching to commercial mobile app developers now, you're pitching too early, because there isn't a market for MeeGo apps Jun 14 15:26:13 dneary: :-p Jun 14 15:26:24 today's hackers are the future CEO's ;) Jun 14 15:26:26 lcuk, If you're pitching to handset manufacturers, you have a case Jun 14 15:26:32 gabrbedd, *I* am a stockholder ;) Jun 14 15:26:33 But you also have a chicken & egg problem Jun 14 15:26:44 depends Jun 14 15:26:48 But you have a key sales point: "gets you out from under Google's thumb" Jun 14 15:26:49 I need polishers Jun 14 15:26:52 not really developers Jun 14 15:26:54 anyway it depends on the audience of course, but those are the folks who matter at the end of the day (other than end customers) Jun 14 15:26:56 the ideas are already started Jun 14 15:26:56 Texrat: so nathan didn't convince you? Jun 14 15:27:13 lcuk, So you need integrators. People putting MeeGo on devices, for real customers Jun 14 15:27:13 dneary, google have very impressive data capabilities Jun 14 15:27:22 and only a fool would ignore their help if it were offered Jun 14 15:27:22 gabrbedd I'm saying *I* don't need convincing... and that Nathan was largely preachign to the choir Jun 14 15:27:33 lcuk: I agree, we need to promote UX branding developers. Jun 14 15:27:55 Show them the cool technology and how easy it is to make a product, whether handset, ttablet or something more bespoke . Jun 14 15:28:00 Texrat: There's no home-runs already out there... but I think a combination of Nathan's article and Bergie's blog are a good starting point. Jun 14 15:28:16 gabrbedd agreed, for a select audience Jun 14 15:28:18 we need to have a device that from day1 looks and feels unique and simple and understandable enough that your grandme can use it Jun 14 15:28:30 gabrbedd we need to convince those heavily in the Android camp Jun 14 15:28:31 * lcuk was happy to let his grandma use liqbase :) Jun 14 15:28:37 I am pleased she saw it Jun 14 15:28:49 MeeGo needs to pull from Android, bottom line Jun 14 15:29:07 lcuk: Trying to be the OLPC with lofty goals of changing the world is an interesting approach which has rarely succeeded Jun 14 15:29:12 'pull'? Jun 14 15:29:17 steal Jun 14 15:29:22 If your audience is free software geeks, then your arguments are different Jun 14 15:29:22 Jaffa, and copying what others do has similar issues Jun 14 15:29:25 as in users, developers, et al Jun 14 15:29:25 git pull android is quite large Jun 14 15:29:32 not what I meant Jun 14 15:29:46 maligor: at least it is *possible* Jun 14 15:29:54 lcuk: Copy what they do and change *one thing* seems to be most successful Jun 14 15:29:59 Texrat: Steal... what? Jun 14 15:30:07 agreed Jaffa: one COMPELLING thing Jun 14 15:30:09 Jaffa, get it right and you become a billionaire Jun 14 15:30:13 Texrat: Sorry... just saw Jun 14 15:30:15 this is community powered - look at Texrat & Stskeeps doing great work in the community, of building a module that got accepted into the core - look at the architecture, this is just like your desktop Linux system, etc" Jun 14 15:30:19 maligor: there is no equivalent for meego, instead you have to hunt around the wiki and follow half complete instructions written by community members Jun 14 15:30:30 ty dneary Jun 14 15:30:47 ali1234, what equivalence are you referring to? Jun 14 15:30:52 Texrat, Perhaps that is what we could do instead of stock slides Jun 14 15:31:00 audience "personas" and talking points? Jun 14 15:31:03 dneary I am already on that path ;) Jun 14 15:31:17 ali1234, full system build? Jun 14 15:31:17 Cool Jun 14 15:31:24 maligor: yes, exactly Jun 14 15:31:32 dneary I had planned to have videos, songs, etc at last meeGo Conf, but elopocalypse pushed that back Jun 14 15:31:40 NEXT MeeGo conf will be different Jun 14 15:31:44 I'd rather see MeeGo do something unique. Jun 14 15:31:52 Rather than clone Android, WebOS, iOS, WP7 .. Jun 14 15:31:53 let's all agree to move away from slides and more into dynamics Jun 14 15:31:56 (Harmattan) Jun 14 15:31:57 :) Jun 14 15:32:14 alterego, I wouldn't bet too much on that Jun 14 15:32:27 my goal: have commercial grade songs, art, videos, etc ready for next MeeGo conf Jun 14 15:32:33 maligor: on what? Jun 14 15:32:44 Nokia's meego product Jun 14 15:32:56 I want to see a complete switch in emphasis of MeeGo conf from Intel to community Jun 14 15:33:08 Texrat: as a precursor to that, let's have camera operators that know what is supposed to be in the picture Jun 14 15:33:10 that includes leadership, organizing, etc Jun 14 15:33:18 lol berndhs Jun 14 15:33:23 and sigh Jun 14 15:33:37 hey, *I* was in the picture! sadly, and my apologies to you all Jun 14 15:34:04 offtopic: I know there are c and c++ books around, is there a book on how to file patents? Jun 14 15:34:08 why don't you just organize your own meego conf, and don't invite anyone from intel? Jun 14 15:34:09 Texrat, like a community sourced committee to handle platform makeup? Jun 14 15:34:12 ie what format you have to apply for them as Jun 14 15:34:21 of course lcuk, although that varies from region to region Jun 14 15:34:31 maligor: bet on it doing what? Jun 14 15:34:36 maligor that's one, sure Jun 14 15:34:53 maligor: I was saying I don't want MeeGo to clone these, we should be thinking something different, and paving the way for vendors to think different. Jun 14 15:34:56 alterego, well, even coming on sale Jun 14 15:35:05 maligor: it'll appear. Jun 14 15:35:08 although maligor my focus here is on community-led conference format, content, etc Jun 14 15:36:03 Texrat, depends on if you want to build products on it or not Jun 14 15:36:23 Texrat: as much as I admire your goals, I strongly doubt you'll achieve them Jun 14 15:36:43 well dm8tbr all WE can do is try ;) Jun 14 15:37:08 Texrat, offhand I can only think of one embedded device that uses such a os Jun 14 15:37:27 and that's Ubiquity Routerstation Pro with OpenWrt Jun 14 15:37:37 if we have something irresistable in time, Intel will realize they can spend much less money on next meeGo conf ;) Jun 14 15:37:46 Texrat: when I (once again) voiced my concerns about meego making it incredibly hard for community hardware adaptations I was basically told by an 'official' to 'suck it up and f* o*' (of course in a nice and convoluted friendly sounding way) Jun 14 15:38:16 yeah dm8tbr I have got that too but I am attackign from a different angle here Jun 14 15:38:17 * lcuk might end up going offline soon Jun 14 15:38:57 the conversation is getting blurry here-- my focus is on community outreach, leadership, marketing, etc Jun 14 15:38:58 maligor: tbh, unless you have insider info, I've not heard anything to indicate Harmattan device has been cancelled. Jun 14 15:39:14 no, not a clue about nokia Jun 14 15:39:20 Texrat: what do you mean by "community outreach?" who are you reaching out to? Jun 14 15:39:46 ali1234 everyone Jun 14 15:40:02 Texrat: ok. who is the "community" then? Jun 14 15:40:16 out reach implies that there's two groups of people involved, and they can't both be "everyone" Jun 14 15:40:18 ali1234 everyone in this chat and then some Jun 14 15:40:29 well of course Jun 14 15:40:36 I think this follows the nokia community principle: 'the best community money can buy' Jun 14 15:40:47 it's the existing MeeGo community to every cynic, skeptic, and innocent ;) Jun 14 15:41:04 so who is reaching out? Jun 14 15:41:12 i don't understand it at all Jun 14 15:41:27 ali1234 I have to admit to being confused by your questions Jun 14 15:41:40 see my statement above Jun 14 15:41:47 "it's the existing MeeGo community to every cynic, skeptic, and innocent ;)" Jun 14 15:41:49 well you agree that there are two groups of people involved yes? Jun 14 15:41:59 of course... as I just noted Jun 14 15:42:06 haha, i misread that statement Jun 14 15:42:21 specifically i misread "to" as a comma Jun 14 15:42:26 lol Jun 14 15:42:27 ok Jun 14 15:42:34 so you're a cynic? :P Jun 14 15:42:37 yes Jun 14 15:42:41 absolutely Jun 14 15:43:04 ok, then allow me tom qualify: cynics, skeptics and innocents that aren't regular partiicpants in MeeGo Jun 14 15:43:11 sheesh, spelling Jun 14 15:43:56 I call anyone who has been in this channel 2 or more times a fringe MeeGo community member at least Jun 14 15:44:07 thing is Jun 14 15:44:14 i've been a cynic since i started with meego Jun 14 15:44:14 so outreach = bringing in others Jun 14 15:44:17 and maemo Jun 14 15:44:22 but not about the companies involved Jun 14 15:44:27 ali1234 that's cool, BUT-- you are HERE Jun 14 15:44:29 for me it's more about the community Jun 14 15:44:37 the community is where the problems are Jun 14 15:45:03 because the community cannot get it's act together and make decisions Jun 14 15:46:34 well, there'll probably be a few meego devices out reasonably soon too, maybe the angels will sing and the clouds depart ;P Jun 14 15:47:00 that never helped maemo Jun 14 15:47:28 when the device gets released is when the complaining *really* starts Jun 14 15:47:52 heh, i decided to preempt that with departing from tmo ;) Jun 14 15:48:29 good choice. I never got the hang of forums... Jun 14 15:48:39 too low SNR Jun 14 15:48:45 ali1234, yeah... maybe Jun 14 15:49:59 specifically what i don't get, what i have never understood since i first heard about maemo, is why the community still perseveres with trying to work within the systems set up by nokia (and now intel) Jun 14 15:50:26 you mean obs? Jun 14 15:50:29 Texrat: btw - there would be embedded devices running meego, but as such efforts are not what the people really (tm) behind meego want it is being made as hard as only possible Jun 14 15:50:55 maligor: no, not just OBS, i'm talking way deeper than that. i mean the whole control structure of meego in it's entireity Jun 14 15:51:22 Texrat: visit http://bug10738.openaos.org/ if you want to know what I mean Jun 14 15:51:25 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10738 nor, Undecided, ---, tero.kojo, NEED, Meego community ftp server or similar needed Jun 14 15:51:27 perhaps there isn't critical mass of community people Jun 14 15:51:51 dm8tbr that's a bit out of my scope Jun 14 15:51:55 maligor: i think that may be part of it, but in a reverse way... Jun 14 15:52:05 I mean, I'm not a community developer as such Jun 14 15:52:23 maligor: there is not enough to overcome the overtly hostile powers behind meego, yes Jun 14 15:52:37 I guess I'm a hostile power Jun 14 15:52:39 ali1234 that statement is too broad, sorry Jun 14 15:52:52 there are many of us in the community stepping up and getting things done Jun 14 15:53:09 Texrat, device program question Jun 14 15:53:09 for instance 2 of us got named to the community office today: myself and x-fade Jun 14 15:53:15 Texrat: i will stop beating about the bush Jun 14 15:53:21 it's really this simple Jun 14 15:53:29 ali1234 your challenges are welcome Jun 14 15:53:32 actually the biggest change that could happen is getting rid of obs raelly Jun 14 15:53:41 all the people complaining about compliance and community adaptations need to make a fork of meego with the branding removed Jun 14 15:53:44 Hey @noteslate, I bet my software will run on your hardware. Got any kind of a prototype device program? Who would I contact? DM me. http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/80586003512950784 Jun 14 15:53:53 all the people complaining about RPM vs DEB need to make a fork of meego Jun 14 15:53:57 obs is just such a large overhead for single developers Jun 14 15:53:58 ^^^ Texrat outreach to them and get me a device to test meego+liqbase on Jun 14 15:54:02 all the people complaining about X need to make a fork of meego Jun 14 15:54:03 ali1234 i agree branding is a dilemma, and it's on my list of things to keep hammering on Jun 14 15:54:20 pretty much every single complaint i have ever read about meego can be solved by forking the damn thing Jun 14 15:54:32 so i wonder why there isn't a fork, and just a community of people complaining Jun 14 15:54:38 lcuk I could use you as a device champion for that ;) Jun 14 15:54:53 Texrat, funded? Jun 14 15:55:06 ali1234: the problem is that you can't even call it meego even if you remove the branding Jun 14 15:55:09 ali1234 the default is to avoid a fork and instead push for process and project improvements Jun 14 15:55:16 and you know I would Jun 14 15:55:24 Texrat: and that's what i don't understand Jun 14 15:55:26 lcuk explain "funded" Jun 14 15:55:30 Texrat: if you are on the CO you might want to push bug 13516 Jun 14 15:55:30 I need a device with pen input I can put between me and my keyboard Jun 14 15:55:32 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13516 nor, Undecided, ---, brian.warner, ASSI, Proposal: Allow MeeGo trademark usage in form of ", a MeeGo R&D project" Jun 14 15:55:36 Texrat: pushing for process and project improvements has never ever worked in the past Jun 14 15:55:42 Texrat, not so long until I need a contract renewal Jun 14 15:55:52 dm8tbr my focus will be on community ptocess, particularly devices Jun 14 15:55:54 * lcuk notes still waiting for pay from april Jun 14 15:55:58 it's not just that it has never worked with meego Jun 14 15:56:05 Texrat: then this is right up your alley Jun 14 15:56:08 ali1234 that is untrue. I have had success there Jun 14 15:56:24 Texrat: as none of the devices you hand out would be allowed to associate with meego unless they are fully compliant Jun 14 15:56:26 sorry lcuk, no pay :P Jun 14 15:56:42 dm8tbr that isn't actually true Jun 14 15:56:44 you may have 1 or 2 small victories. there is no successfuly product where it has happened on a large scale Jun 14 15:56:47 Texrat, find out who at noteslate to contact and whether it can be an official meego device program request and I will happily champion it Jun 14 15:56:54 since they seem to have hardware without an os Jun 14 15:56:58 possibly you could count mozilla Jun 14 15:57:12 and I only know one environment that can do some of the things they have proposed Jun 14 15:57:21 or let me say "necessarily" true Jun 14 15:57:36 lcuk, please add as a proposal to wiki Jun 14 15:57:53 Texrat: well http://bug10738.openaos.org/ exists for a reason and that is that people here have threatened to involve the LF and lawsuits... Jun 14 15:57:53 to any page of the wiki, or somewhere in particular? Jun 14 15:57:55 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10738 nor, Undecided, ---, tero.kojo, NEED, Meego community ftp server or similar needed Jun 14 15:57:56 http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program Jun 14 15:58:09 lcuk don't be silly you twit :P Jun 14 15:58:56 i think the problem is that people have become so caught up in the idea of selling FOSS to business that they've lost track of what FOSS actually stands for Jun 14 15:59:06 Texrat, http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program#Platforms.2FDevices Jun 14 15:59:14 * lcuk serious Jun 14 15:59:26 why do you all think it is so important for nokia and intel to adopt FOSS when you can't even use the end result because of trademarks? Jun 14 15:59:40 n8x0/n900 for pocket use, noteslate for on my desk and ideapad/slate for on the wall Jun 14 15:59:44 yummy combination Jun 14 15:59:53 thanks lcuk Jun 14 16:00:13 noteslate? Jun 14 16:00:21 sorry, my current shitty job has gotten in the way of getting caught up even on my own wiki pages Jun 14 16:00:25 black and white pen driven slate Jun 14 16:00:32 that should change soon Jun 14 16:00:34 not low reolution capacitive \o/ Jun 14 16:00:41 REAL handwriting on slate formfactor Jun 14 16:00:47 for grown ups to use :) Jun 14 16:01:03 lcuk, ah, not little boys like me Jun 14 16:01:09 you can use it too Jun 14 16:01:30 if you think computers are too technical Jun 14 16:01:31 :) Jun 14 16:01:56 Well... I've hacked bootloaders out of curiosity Jun 14 16:02:17 good, can you fix ali1234s bug about mbrs and bootloaders? Jun 14 16:02:41 bug 12816 Jun 14 16:02:44 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12816 enh, Undecided, ---, gavin.hindman, NEW, [FEA] No option to install without bootloader step Jun 14 16:02:58 lcuk: like all bugs in meego, the only people who can fix it are the ones that have access to the core OBS Jun 14 16:03:03 dm8tbr I voted for both bugs Jun 14 16:03:06 that's a installer bug :P Jun 14 16:03:07 sigh ali1234 Jun 14 16:03:17 maligor, it is bootloader installation phase though Jun 14 16:03:24 if you can add input ali1234 might stop whining Jun 14 16:03:25 Texrat: thanks :) Jun 14 16:03:25 ali1234 that's not true of all bugs in MeeGo Jun 14 16:03:34 fixing it only require reverting the patch that someone made to specifically remove the functionality Jun 14 16:03:46 Texrat: yes it is, by definition Jun 14 16:03:52 no it isn't Jun 14 16:03:59 Texrat: anyone can supply a patch, but someone with OBS access must accept it Jun 14 16:04:06 otherwise it does not go in meego Jun 14 16:04:06 there are many PROCESS bugs Jun 14 16:04:25 just like the old x86 support Jun 14 16:04:37 all we hear from on high is "well send patches" Jun 14 16:04:41 maybe we are talking two different hings: I mean that not all bugs in bugs.meego.com involve OS, hence OBS Jun 14 16:04:53 sending patches that do nothing except revert changes made specifically by intel are obviously not going to be accepted Jun 14 16:04:57 so why even ask for them? Jun 14 16:05:02 there were website bugs, process bugs, etc Jun 14 16:05:10 unless you're just using process in order to drive people away Jun 14 16:05:20 I'm certainly not Jun 14 16:05:32 not you Jun 14 16:05:38 the people who say "well send a patch" Jun 14 16:05:44 I understand your cynicism, but it is borderline antagonism ;) Jun 14 16:05:47 knowing full well that the patch won't be accepted Jun 14 16:06:11 ali1234 all I can say is that there are many who are fighting the status quo Jun 14 16:06:22 but why? Jun 14 16:06:24 giving up is not an option Jun 14 16:06:26 why do you fight it? Jun 14 16:06:33 giving up most certainly *is* an option Jun 14 16:06:40 I don't understand Jun 14 16:06:50 I am fighting against the sort of problem you cite Jun 14 16:06:56 ie, status quo Jun 14 16:06:59 at the end of the day, what is it that you expect to achieve by converting meego to an entirely open process? Jun 14 16:07:16 a different ecosystem Jun 14 16:07:21 if the only thing you expect to achieve is "make people like ali1234 happy" Jun 14 16:07:29 no, that's not enough Jun 14 16:07:30 then you're wasting your time, because i will never be happy Jun 14 16:07:31 maybe intel will loosen the reins once they get their products out Jun 14 16:07:46 that's possible maligori Jun 14 16:08:02 let me put it another way Jun 14 16:08:13 and guys, understand this: Intel's CPU business WANTS an open ecosystem Jun 14 16:08:16 why do you try to make meego be more open, instead of trying to persuade android to be more open? Jun 14 16:08:26 or for that matter, microsoft? Jun 14 16:08:34 because ali1234 meeGo is more likely to comply Jun 14 16:08:35 Because android is not very embedded-friendly Jun 14 16:08:56 MeeGo has the most promise for being the most open Jun 14 16:09:03 Because Android is lame :) Jun 14 16:09:06 meego is made out more out of community components in the first place Jun 14 16:09:11 why not just start at a point of complete openness, and join debian? Jun 14 16:09:22 debian isn't a embedded distro Jun 14 16:09:28 Anyway, Android will never be more open, it's a Google project for Google. Jun 14 16:09:38 ali1234 i can see that, but then how do you get mobility in? that was the original issue Jun 14 16:09:56 plus as maligori said Jun 14 16:09:57 ok then, openmoko? Jun 14 16:10:11 openmoko suffered political issues Jun 14 16:10:12 openmoko is too heavily fragmented Jun 14 16:10:27 again: MeeGo has the best potential Jun 14 16:10:30 there were like 6+ distros for openmoko freerunner Jun 14 16:10:34 They didnt' have a clear focus when it came to the software and it executed badly. Jun 14 16:10:35 There is however OpenEmbedded and derivates Jun 14 16:10:58 rather than open, a cleaner more desirable thing which is accessibility. having accessible processes, easy learning curve, simple methods and low barrier to participation with feedback Jun 14 16:11:00 like Angstrom Jun 14 16:11:04 open embedded doesn't specify API requirements. Jun 14 16:11:07 you know Jun 14 16:11:30 Suggesting OE is like suggesting build root :P Jun 14 16:11:32 alterego, well, no, it's not really that kind of target Jun 14 16:11:42 both OE and buildroot are easier to use than OBS Jun 14 16:11:49 ali1234 if you are determined to never be convinced, why keep asking? ;) Jun 14 16:11:58 maligor: exactly, and MeeGo is, we're working on a unified platform which can target multiple vertical targets. Jun 14 16:12:07 ali1234: bullshit Jun 14 16:12:07 OBS isn't actually difficult to use Jun 14 16:12:10 Texrat: i dunno, that's kind of the same question i am asking you isn't it? ;) Jun 14 16:12:18 I've used all three and obs is the easiest .. Jun 14 16:12:26 ali1234 I can't answer that for you. No one can but you ;) Jun 14 16:12:32 buildroot is easier than OBS :P Jun 14 16:12:35 well, i've used all three and OE is the easiest Jun 14 16:12:43 OE is just weird Jun 14 16:12:46 oh noes! build system religious war!!! Jun 14 16:12:51 maligor: build root should be called "I don't fucking work" :P Jun 14 16:12:53 it's DEB vs RPM all over again!!!! Jun 14 16:12:57 * Texrat runs screaming Jun 14 16:13:05 the bitbake in OE is insanely complex to configure Jun 14 16:13:08 http://thenokiablog.com/2011/05/11/nokia-meego-developer-device/ Nokia MeeGo Developer Device to be Announced June 2011 Jun 14 16:13:28 * alterego sighs Jun 14 16:13:31 alterego, I've used it several times to make very nice tiny setups Jun 14 16:13:34 I think vi is better than edlin Jun 14 16:13:37 always with the religious wars and then we wonder why intel and nokia don't want to listen to the community Jun 14 16:13:41 is this device annoynced? Jun 14 16:13:54 alterego, I think they all have their strong points and weak points Jun 14 16:13:55 Nokia quit listening officially ;) Jun 14 16:13:57 announced Jun 14 16:14:00 maligor: I have too, and more often than not, it would fail. Jun 14 16:14:00 plautius: maybe it was announced while we were all busy arguing, but i don't think so Jun 14 16:14:22 plautius: no, go away :P Jun 14 16:14:31 ali1234 = argument center :P Jun 14 16:14:32 ok tahnk you Jun 14 16:14:37 as long as the embedded platform has vim, all is fine Jun 14 16:14:44 lol Jun 14 16:14:45 maligor: vi :P Jun 14 16:14:48 Texrat: i no rite Jun 14 16:14:48 * timoph sits back and follows yet another pointless argument while having a delicious sandwitch Jun 14 16:14:55 besides real men edit in ed Jun 14 16:15:00 edlin Jun 14 16:15:01 ? Jun 14 16:15:13 Or sed Jun 14 16:15:14 DOS EDIT! Jun 14 16:15:19 * Texrat ducks for cover Jun 14 16:15:21 Or just cat like me. Jun 14 16:15:24 :) Jun 14 16:15:24 (I hope noone takes that as me being confused, ed is ?) Jun 14 16:15:35 oh hi timoph Jun 14 16:15:39 o/ Jun 14 16:15:40 maligor: don't worry P Jun 14 16:16:13 maligor: /bin/ed Jun 14 16:16:17 real men use hex editors Jun 14 16:16:23 so judging from how this degenerated into an argument about /technical merits/ of each distro i'm assuming that you all picked meego because you think it will be easier to fix that project processes than to fix the technical problems with other distros? Jun 14 16:16:34 or punch binary holes in cards Jun 14 16:16:48 that's my answer ali1234 Jun 14 16:16:49 I'm here for the shiny hardware. Jun 14 16:17:00 I'm here for the donuts and coffee Jun 14 16:17:00 timoph, what is on your sandwich? Jun 14 16:17:04 It's the last best hope for open mobile hardware. Jun 14 16:17:04 still waiting Jun 14 16:17:07 I had cheese on toast earlier Jun 14 16:17:08 well that seems odd to me Jun 14 16:17:19 lcuk: cheese, cucumber and butter Jun 14 16:17:19 i would rather fix technical issues and not worry about political drama, really Jun 14 16:17:52 mmm Jun 14 16:17:56 but the thing is Jun 14 16:18:02 i'm not getting support from intel to do that Jun 14 16:18:06 intel/nokia etc Jun 14 16:18:14 and im'm also not getting support from the community Jun 14 16:18:21 because the community is trying to fix political problems Jun 14 16:18:23 ahem Jun 14 16:18:25 so what now? Jun 14 16:18:26 what technical issues? Jun 14 16:18:35 maligor: like the bugs i've been pasting here all day long Jun 14 16:18:41 ali1234, I thought our little discussion at least started it Jun 14 16:18:52 ali1234, oh, ok Jun 14 16:18:53 lcuk: no, it's the same discussion i get whenever i bring up any bug Jun 14 16:19:09 developers love bugs Jun 14 16:19:23 yeah. we make them all the time Jun 14 16:19:26 ali1234, which of the 18000 or so bugs should be prioritised? Jun 14 16:19:41 lcuk: i don't mind what intel does Jun 14 16:20:09 lcuk: what annoys me is that the community (except for about 5 people) seems to show no interest in getting bugs fixed Jun 14 16:20:22 they would rather complain about how meego processes are not open enough Jun 14 16:20:58 ali1234, they are as passionate about getting their bugs fixed as you are Jun 14 16:21:01 like i said way up^ i don't have a problem with how intel and nokia "contribute" Jun 14 16:21:11 w00t: Ping? Jun 14 16:21:12 their bugs might be processes, yours are technical Jun 14 16:21:20 but different people care about different things Jun 14 16:21:25 ali1234 we have to address tech AND politics. No escaping it with ANY distro Jun 14 16:21:27 ali1234, people tend to prioritize bugs that match their own projects, meego is big Jun 14 16:21:31 which is good if we can align everybody up Jun 14 16:21:41 meego isn't *that* big Jun 14 16:21:44 so the right people can fix the right bugs Jun 14 16:21:48 it's not debian for example Jun 14 16:21:55 IMHO, the biggest problem MeeGo has is a a lack of dogfooding among the developers. IMHO, at this stage, devs should be using meego to develop meego apps, not other distros. Jun 14 16:22:08 ali1234 MeeGo has big *scope* Jun 14 16:22:10 npm, I use meego every day Jun 14 16:22:11 oh hai npm :) Jun 14 16:22:17 n900 is just getting contacts importing Jun 14 16:22:24 agreed npm Jun 14 16:22:27 how come, at recent conference, i was one of the few using a meego netbook as my only computer Jun 14 16:22:37 npm I was using mine too! Jun 14 16:22:45 and saw plenty of intel devs using macs Jun 14 16:22:50 * Texrat loves his Lenovo Jun 14 16:22:56 I would've probably used debian Jun 14 16:22:59 npm, disheartened after dublin to hear so many people installing other oses on them Jun 14 16:23:04 yeah I wondered about the Mac use too Jun 14 16:23:05 that really grated with me Jun 14 16:23:13 meego tries to be that 'linux business thing' and fails at being community thing although it seems to say all the time 'community community community' Jun 14 16:23:13 since they were specific meego devices from meego conf Jun 14 16:23:37 I disagree dm8tbr but then we have different perspectives Jun 14 16:23:46 npm maybe it's because there are things to dislike in meego? Jun 14 16:23:48 dm8tbr: exactly. in terms of politics the only difference between android and meego is that at least google is honest about what you can expect from android "community" Jun 14 16:23:55 well that's the biggest problem. that, and getting all manner of push-back when i try to make it useable and useful with http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Lem Jun 14 16:23:59 oh please ali1234 Jun 14 16:24:03 Google DICTATES Jun 14 16:24:08 pebcak, those should be turned into the next version then Jun 14 16:24:24 Texrat: so what? Jun 14 16:24:27 why is that a problem? Jun 14 16:24:28 ali1234 why? the license problems indicate dm8tbr is right Jun 14 16:24:30 npm: cardinal mistake, you used the word 'meego' naughty you... Jun 14 16:24:33 pebcak: if there's things to dislike in meego, they'd get fixed pretty fast if people had no alternative Jun 14 16:24:50 lcuk npm what if I dislike rpm? Jun 14 16:25:05 :) Jun 14 16:25:09 IMHO "management" needs to dictate "thou shalt use meego to dev meego" and then problems get solved Jun 14 16:25:12 ali1234 if it isn't a problem for you then it isn't a problem. I'm not here to convert you to my thinking Jun 14 16:25:14 the only dislike about rpm I personally have is that it has a tendency to corrupt it's own state Jun 14 16:25:24 Texrat: all distros dictate to their users Jun 14 16:25:28 i guarantee 99.9% of real people do not give a damn what rpm or deb or sis or installshield is Jun 14 16:25:45 * lcuk is among them Jun 14 16:25:48 so ali1234 i'm starting to see your questions as mostly rhetorical and academic rather than wanting to learn Jun 14 16:25:52 what I care about is a simple way to make any of them Jun 14 16:25:59 most people expect a graphical installer and it wouldn't matter if stuff is distributed in tar.gz format Jun 14 16:26:12 a magic button "Make me a package" Jun 14 16:26:13 who cares about the underlying crap... it's what's on top that people notice Jun 14 16:26:17 lcuk 99% of real people give a shit about meego on a device they got on a conference which isn't working for them with that Jun 14 16:26:27 :D Jun 14 16:26:31 hf Jun 14 16:26:34 npm, like shiny buttons with fancy animations Jun 14 16:27:01 Texrat: the only thing i want to learn is why you think that meego would be *improved* if it's processes worked the way you want them to Jun 14 16:27:02 unfortunately yes. Jun 14 16:27:03 npm :) source installation is a pipedream Jun 14 16:27:19 at least for the specific meego stuff Jun 14 16:27:21 * Texrat notes shift in cynical-to-openminded ratio that now favors cynics :P Jun 14 16:27:22 * dm8tbr failed horribly at setting up a working development environment for meego on all the computers he tried so far Jun 14 16:27:26 so we need obs and binary repos Jun 14 16:27:39 ali1234 no offense, but I get the sense you're not really receptive to what I have to say Jun 14 16:27:55 s/I/anyone/ Jun 14 16:28:08 dm8tbr Qt runs fine on my MeeGo lenovo Jun 14 16:28:16 ali1234, work processes are highly important to attract new developers Jun 14 16:28:39 Texrat: ali1234 is always trolling :P Jun 14 16:28:45 I wonder why he's even here most of the time. Jun 14 16:29:02 alterego I was hoping to get that answered ;) Jun 14 16:29:03 But he does play a good devils' advocate occasionally. Jun 14 16:29:05 Texrat: my use case was: follow some QML example and make it deploy it to a meego device Jun 14 16:29:19 yes alterego we do need to be challenged Jun 14 16:29:32 Texrat: fail, fail, fail, even more fail when I tried to bring QtMobility into the picture Jun 14 16:29:43 I don't want to just defend MeeGo-- I want to know where real opportunities for improvement are Jun 14 16:29:45 Damnit, I just drew a sketch of a handset ux, and it looks like Android. Jun 14 16:29:46 "what is the use case" is right up there with "send a patch" :P Jun 14 16:29:50 dm8tbr, I've used all those just fine Jun 14 16:29:54 * alterego screws it up and throws it in the bin. Jun 14 16:29:57 "next!" Jun 14 16:30:11 maligor: you have deployed a _pure_ qml example from creator to a device? Jun 14 16:30:17 so how about those Dallas Mavericks? :D Jun 14 16:30:18 dm8tbr, yes Jun 14 16:30:49 lol alterego. getting hard to truly differentiate with UX/UI these days Jun 14 16:31:12 * Texrat braces for onslaught of UX/UI lawsuits Jun 14 16:31:12 maligor: then you might be able to add some pointers/content here - http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Beginners_guide_how_to_get_started Jun 14 16:31:18 Texrat, :) Jun 14 16:31:34 cannot get more differentiated than it being in your own handwriting. Jun 14 16:31:46 liqUId for the win! Jun 14 16:31:53 dm8tbr, I don't have a reference at hand, and it was a while back, but let's see Jun 14 16:32:39 maligor: e.g. qmlviewer does NOT work with qtmobility (and you need that if you want e.g. sound) Jun 14 16:32:53 well, no, you don't really want to use qmlviewer Jun 14 16:33:12 dm8tbr, is it just for testing? or full deployment? Jun 14 16:33:15 qmlviewer does work with mobility .. Jun 14 16:33:18 well but that's what QtCreator defaults to if you create a pure QML project Jun 14 16:33:29 O_O Jun 14 16:33:35 I think meego-qml-launcher --app app-name Jun 14 16:33:50 if the app-name is path in /usr/share/app-name Jun 14 16:33:56 and it loads main.qml Jun 14 16:33:56 maligor: the qmlviewer was just to get started and test Jun 14 16:34:21 i don't know if this is too offtopic,but where could i buy a new n900 online that's not amazon and what is considered a fair price? i saw one for $500+ and that seemed a bit steep Jun 14 16:34:22 qmlviewer doesn't really work correctly Jun 14 16:34:35 alterego: orly? because when I tried to use something out of qtmultimediakit it barfed at me Jun 14 16:34:44 alterego i really enjoyed the MeeGo debate at talk.maemo :D Jun 14 16:34:51 jargon-, I saw it on a nokia site just a few days ago Jun 14 16:34:59 maligor: and I was under the asumption it would work as that is what it defaulted to! Jun 14 16:35:00 lcuk: nokia.com? Jun 14 16:35:07 cant remember Jun 14 16:35:18 if it wasn't @nokia it was a damn good knock off of the site Jun 14 16:35:30 dm8tbr, well, I think it should work with qtmobility, it just might have issues with some other mechanisms in meego Jun 14 16:35:36 speaking of meego-qml-launcher, how does one invoke it through qtcreator so that you can test your progs w/o installing them in /usr/share/meego-app-* Jun 14 16:35:37 lcuk: ok Jun 14 16:35:42 maligor: it took me a week of asking around and wasting people's time to arrive to the conclusion that this was just an undocumented steaming pile of bullcrap Jun 14 16:35:50 lcuk I will have to change your Noteslate entry on the wiki Jun 14 16:35:52 lcuk: what price? Jun 14 16:35:56 Texrat: yeah, I was getting a bit short near the end, kind of out of lack of food, lack of sleep, and boredom. Jun 14 16:36:08 Texrat, please feel free to change whatever, that is just a desire Jun 14 16:36:08 So I think my last few posts came across as being a bit incoherent and quite rude Jun 14 16:36:09 maligor: I tried both with the windows and linux sdks and qtcreator, no dice Jun 14 16:36:10 aka how do people dev meeg-ux apps with qtcreator without installing to test? Jun 14 16:36:14 lcuk you added it as a category rather than device under an existing category ;) Jun 14 16:36:16 if they want me to test stuff I will Jun 14 16:36:17 npm: I don't think you can. Where do you want to test them from? Can't you just make a symlink? Jun 14 16:36:22 no alterego you were fine Jun 14 16:36:29 Texrat, noteslate is its own category Jun 14 16:36:36 pen driven, black and white Jun 14 16:36:37 etc Jun 14 16:36:40 lcuk not really. Jun 14 16:36:40 andyross: i want to test from my source directory. Jun 14 16:36:42 maligor: and I never managed to make it work manually as trying to run qmlviewer on tabletUx just made it go all grey Jun 14 16:36:43 reall Jun 14 16:36:45 y Jun 14 16:36:53 lcuk it will fit under one of the other broad categories Jun 14 16:36:57 as it is, i just made /usr/share/meego-app-npm writable by me and just dev "in place" Jun 14 16:36:58 Texrat: cool, I might get drunk tonight and see if I can offend someone :P Jun 14 16:36:58 * lcuk recalls first ever liqbase Jun 14 16:37:02 ahhh greyscale Jun 14 16:37:03 :) Jun 14 16:37:04 but it's kinda yucky Jun 14 16:37:11 Texrat, fit it wherever Jun 14 16:37:20 but try and make contact with the team Jun 14 16:37:28 outreach ;) Jun 14 16:37:28 Why yucky? Directories are directories. Jun 14 16:37:40 I will lcuk but you are also encouraged to as well ;) Jun 14 16:37:50 Texrat, for sure Jun 14 16:37:51 released directories shouldn't have revision control stuff in them, for one Jun 14 16:38:00 tonight is beer and curry night Jun 14 16:38:09 My girlfriend is out of the country for the next couple of days. Jun 14 16:38:11 my hope is to mostly focus on coordination and let device champions contribute Jun 14 16:38:23 What is a "device champion" ? Jun 14 16:38:30 nod Jun 14 16:38:34 i could run the apps in qmlviewer but they don't behave same as with meego-qml-launcher Jun 14 16:38:38 damn alterego that is awful nice of you to spare her Jun 14 16:38:56 alterego, Jun 14 16:38:56 basicaly i just want to hit the "run" button in qtcreator and run my meego-ux app Jun 14 16:39:02 Good ridance, I get to code in peace ;) Jun 14 16:39:03 hacktivate: sleeping arrangements? Jun 14 16:39:09 camping in the offices? Jun 14 16:39:10 lcuk: I have none. Jun 14 16:39:12 alterego a device champion is anyone who wants to be a patron for any device in community device program Jun 14 16:39:12 like barcamp? Jun 14 16:39:15 defined on wiki Jun 14 16:39:22 lcuk: I was probably going to do an all nighter yeah. Jun 14 16:39:22 npm: I'm still not understanding what your actual problem is. You just don't like the aesthetics of writing code in a some place under /usr on the device tree? Jun 14 16:39:28 lcuk: could ask on twitter? Jun 14 16:39:29 alterego, roger Jun 14 16:39:42 you can i am heavily busy here and elsewhere Jun 14 16:39:47 m'kay Jun 14 16:39:52 I have to find money for the train yet Jun 14 16:39:57 Me too Jun 14 16:40:00 I just paid the rent. Jun 14 16:40:01 no, it's that i cant debug it in qtcreator, nor edit/compile/test "in place" Jun 14 16:40:10 And I just had to wire 200 quid to my girlfriend, who is abroad. Jun 14 16:40:20 * lcuk notes there is less money in my bank account today than at any time ever in the history of mankind Jun 14 16:40:25 I know zilch about qtcreator, but why not? Again, that's what symlinks are for. Jun 14 16:40:28 Because she took too much bloody luggage and spent 2/3s of the money I have her originally -_- Jun 14 16:40:41 isn't qtcreator how we're supposed to dev qt apps? Jun 14 16:40:41 s/have/gave/ Jun 14 16:40:41 alterego meant: Because she took too much bloody luggage and spent 2/3s of the money I gave her originally -_- Jun 14 16:40:51 yes npm Jun 14 16:40:55 dm8tbr, yeah, the qmlviewer works in mysterious ways on tablet ux Jun 14 16:41:05 dm8tbr, that's more or less what I meant Jun 14 16:41:13 it does work, but... Jun 14 16:41:17 infact, bbl my head melting Jun 14 16:41:25 and since meego-ux apps are qt/qml, one would expect to do all the dev in qtcreator... Jun 14 16:41:27 it has been a lively, active afternoon have enjoyed it \o Jun 14 16:41:29 maligor: jftr for the desktop qmlviewer - http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTSDK-419 Jun 14 16:41:48 dm8tbr, also did you use meego-components? Jun 14 16:42:25 maligor: uh-what? is that some pixiedust that makes stuff work? Jun 14 16:42:38 QML is a source format. You're "supposed" to use an editor. qtcreator is one. Certainly not the only option. Can you be more specific why it can't be made to work? Can't you just make a symlink to the /usr/share/ tree as your project directory? Jun 14 16:42:51 dm8tbr, no, it's a qml component set available on meego Jun 14 16:43:11 qtcreator is an IDE. I edit in emacs Jun 14 16:43:17 andyross, I feel ashamed, I used vim Jun 14 16:44:07 maligor: yeah, well that would be on the device, never got that far... Jun 14 16:44:14 andyross: 'its text just use an editor" is a very uninviting "development story" than what Android devs or IOS devs are given... Jun 14 16:45:07 oh no! I'm having to work Jun 14 16:45:08 dm8tbr, you mean just writing simple qml? Jun 14 16:45:16 I'm still not understanding what your problem is. But regardless: check meego-qml-launcher/src/launcherwindow.cpp:242. The /usr/share directory is hardcoded there, but you could certainly provide a patch to read it from an environment variable to override, etc... Jun 14 16:46:24 it's that meego-ux is hard to develop with because there's no integration/packaging/debug/test suport in qtcreator Jun 14 16:46:29 * alterego contemplates what movie to watch tonight. Jun 14 16:46:37 npm, oh, I found it quite easy Jun 14 16:47:07 maybe i need to install Intel SDK and not qtcreator? Jun 14 16:47:12 OK... then I have no response to that other than to generally agree with you that the SDK needs a ton of work. I thought you had a specific problem that required running an app out of a directory other than the default. Jun 14 16:47:28 npm, well, I wrote it in vim Jun 14 16:47:47 it's just that i put my deployed code in /usr/share but when i'm working on it, it's in my source directory Jun 14 16:47:54 maligor: qt-creator offers you conveniently a basic qml tuotorial Jun 14 16:48:13 maligor: my mistake was that I believed that it would get me anywhere Jun 14 16:48:19 and there shouldn't be uneccessary edit/compile/deploy steps in an IDE where you are doing rapid prototyping Jun 14 16:48:29 Texrat: do you happen to know any good documents on UX design principles? Jun 14 16:48:35 And my response about symlinks (like, directories that can be in more than one place at once!) wasn't sufficient? I know it's complicated by the chroot, but really this isn't a hard problem. Jun 14 16:48:36 just edit->run Jun 14 16:48:38 dm8tbr, well, I made a simple painter app that used qml, albeit it's not as simple as it used to be anymore Jun 14 16:48:41 Texrat: don't know whether that's in your field? Jun 14 16:49:03 dm8tbr, so it might not be a very good reference Jun 14 16:49:05 alterego it's not in my field, but I have run across good whitepapers... Jun 14 16:49:11 just don't recall where offhand Jun 14 16:49:26 alterego you can search slideshare.net Jun 14 16:49:26 well i can always hack, but last i checked, google doesn't require people putting in manual symlinks for andoid testing. Jun 14 16:49:36 mostly because I packaged it into a binary instead of all qml Jun 14 16:49:46 thanks Jun 14 16:49:57 maligor, pure qml painting? Jun 14 16:50:11 no, it implements a c++ component Jun 14 16:50:22 alterego, there are a load of really good documents based on the maemo ux meets code meetup Jun 14 16:50:26 npm: I give up. I'm trying to give you help with MeeGo. If you want to grouse about the SDK, pick a different target. Or better: submit bug reports and feature requests. Jun 14 16:50:30 everything should be linked from there afaik Jun 14 16:50:50 pure qml painting isn't really possible :P Jun 14 16:51:10 gotta get back to work, later geeks Jun 14 16:51:19 caio Jun 14 16:51:25 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo-Barcelona_Long_Weekend Jun 14 16:51:39 alterego, people to poke, presentations given etc Jun 14 16:51:43 should all be available from there Jun 14 16:51:54 Cool, thanks. Jun 14 16:52:03 andyross: thanks for the help... the issue is that most people don't grouse or file bug reports. they just give up and use what's easy. i'm not most people.... Jun 14 16:52:34 what's "grousing"? Jun 14 16:52:36 maligor, then how can you call it a QML app? Jun 14 16:53:03 lcuk, because the gui itself is qml, aside from the paint component :P Jun 14 16:53:15 maligor: synonym for "complaining", with the connotation that it's generally unhelpful :) Jun 14 16:53:20 so everything except the important bit Jun 14 16:53:36 complaining for the point of complaining, which i'm not doing. i'm hitting the same kind of rough spots other people are undoubtedly hitting Jun 14 16:54:05 I usually analyze and try to help to get it fixed Jun 14 16:54:14 maligor, could the painting component become a standard piece? Jun 14 16:54:23 so then it is fully qml usable by all Jun 14 16:54:39 lcuk, theoretically, but haven't worked on it for a while Jun 14 16:54:57 at one point the paint component was a external library Jun 14 16:55:19 it was mostly a learning experience into qml Jun 14 16:55:32 so what lessons did you learn from it? Jun 14 16:55:53 how to integrate c++ to qml Jun 14 16:55:57 and how to write qml Jun 14 16:56:17 does the c++ component have all the same qml bits as normal? Jun 14 16:56:29 like animation support over properties exposed Jun 14 16:56:30 etc Jun 14 16:56:40 * alterego has a look to see what's on the telly box tonight. Jun 14 16:56:59 lcuk, didn't actually try to animate it Jun 14 16:57:12 it's built ontop of the qml base component Jun 14 16:57:23 which is similar but not quite a QWidget Jun 14 16:58:31 cool Jun 14 17:00:41 MeeGo Events meeting starting now in #meego-meeting Jun 14 17:01:53 hi Jun 14 17:23:34 * npm notes http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/q/qmltube/qmltube_0.6.5.tar.gz compiles and runs nicely on MeeGO Jun 14 17:24:52 * npm investigates dropping in its implementation in place of my own for panel http://nielsmayer.com/meego/tab/meego-ux-panels-youtube.png Jun 14 17:25:32 but how does one turn a toplevel qml app into a panel... does all the C++ need to become plugins? Jun 14 17:30:31 npm, I haven't looked at specifics, but yeah, all c++ would have to become plugins Jun 14 17:32:06 qt5 2 - 0 stskeeps Jun 14 17:32:10 * Stskeeps fails at building it. Jun 14 17:33:03 actually, it looks like all i'd need is some kind of C++ initializer hook and then the meego-ux equiv of viewer.setMainQmlFile(QLatin1String("qml/qmltube/main.qml")) to launch (it uses "qmlapplicationviewer") Jun 14 17:34:25 Stskeeps: where is it? maybe I want that failing experience too :) Jun 14 17:35:00 http://build.meego.com/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=qt5&project=home%3Acvm%3Awayland&repository=Trunk Jun 14 17:35:01 * npm hopes /ux/meego-app-camera/plugin/components.cpp is right example to look at for C++ inits Jun 14 17:36:33 npm, err.. Jun 14 17:36:45 npm, 'a panel'? Jun 14 17:36:59 yes Jun 14 17:37:04 npm, you mean the tablet ux panel view panel or some other panel? Jun 14 17:37:16 see http://nielsmayer.com/meego/tab/meego-ux-panels-youtube.png Jun 14 17:37:32 aka proof of concept 1 hr hack worked Jun 14 17:37:34 so the tablet ux Jun 14 17:37:56 however no point in reinventing the wheel if cutetube-qml already did all the heavy lifting Jun 14 17:39:46 look up meego-ux-panels Jun 14 17:39:59 and panelsrc under it Jun 14 17:40:41 incase you're curious and don't want to give up Jun 14 17:40:45 well that's how i did my first panel Jun 14 17:40:53 already Jun 14 17:41:07 oh, ok, so you just want to import c++ objects into it? Jun 14 17:41:21 yes, http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/q/qmltube/qmltube_0.6.5.tar.gz Jun 14 17:41:37 as a panel Jun 14 17:41:52 don't actually have meego stuff on my home computer, so, this is mostly from memory Jun 14 17:42:21 mm..no, remembered wrong Jun 14 17:42:23 two of my home computers are meego, the others three fedora . Jun 14 17:42:44 I have 3 debians Jun 14 17:42:58 actually, when my n900 is running meego, i'm even Jun 14 17:43:19 too bad maemo5 is so appealing :-) Jun 14 17:44:59 so yeah it looks like making a component initializer at toplevel and adding that as a plugin will work. Jun 14 17:45:45 mm? Jun 14 17:46:09 I'm not sure what you're attempting anymore :P Jun 14 17:46:30 there's a qml c++ plugin example under the name 'FolderListModel' Jun 14 17:47:07 I imagine the way it's used int he panels would be identical except that the search path has to be right Jun 14 17:48:00 i was looking at ux/meego-app-camera/plugin/components.cpp since that also needs to run a bunch of inits before app starts up Jun 14 17:48:47 interesting, I'll have to peek also Jun 14 17:49:50 what? g_type_init() ? :P Jun 14 17:50:21 well i'm always looking for help on this ... the previous panel is a result of integrating http://code.google.com/p/ytd-meego/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fplayground%2Fytapi-jsonviewer ... and i'll probably add the code i get as another dir in "playground' Jun 14 17:50:34 that's just identical to the plugin.cpp in folderlistmodel example th Jun 14 17:50:43 except the folderlistmodel doesn't specify the constructor Jun 14 17:51:14 and a different macro I guess Jun 14 17:51:32 i wish cutetube-qml was written as concicely and all-QML like my code Jun 14 17:52:03 perhaps qt5 will allow it to be entirely qml ;P Jun 14 17:52:32 i think it's just the result of porting an existing C++ proj Jun 14 17:53:03 starting from scratch, and using more efficient (and non-memory leaking and crash-causing) JSON feeds over RSS/ATOM Jun 14 17:53:20 (was thinking video playback in qml) Jun 14 17:53:31 not sure why I thought that would be in a qml panel Jun 14 17:53:33 video playback works ok in qtmobility Jun 14 17:53:39 i have difft prototype of that Jun 14 17:53:50 but doesn't work at all for most youtube vids Jun 14 17:54:08 heh, cool Jun 14 17:54:22 but the youtube flash "leanback" viewer works quite nice and gives you all the features needed Jun 14 17:54:29 other than being flash suckage Jun 14 17:55:12 http://code.google.com/p/ytd-meego/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fplayground%2Fytapi-jsonviewer has such a viewer built in Jun 14 17:55:24 the definition of flash is suckage, so you're statement "suckage suckage" makes no sense ;P Jun 14 17:56:36 I hear horror stories about flash codebase Jun 14 17:57:43 the issue is that for a youtube viewer, many of the interesting videos are only avail in flash. plus feautures like annotation, captioning, etc are only in flash Jun 14 17:58:04 plus that's how they force you to watch adverts on "popular" videos Jun 14 17:58:13 And tere is flash content elsewhere than youtube. Jun 14 17:59:01 that too, but i was specifically working on a youtube panel Jun 14 17:59:30 i think other providers would get their own panels once i figure out how to do youtube Jun 14 18:00:27 and then my trainspodder panel to tie it all together: http://nielsmayer.com/trainspodder-prototype.jpg Jun 14 18:36:18 anyone know why "zypper si" no longer works at all for any package? Jun 14 18:40:07 ali1234: which source repo is enabled? (`zypper repos`) Jun 14 18:41:28 gabrbedd: 1.2.0-oss-source and 1.2.0-updates-oss-source Jun 14 18:41:53 What does `zypper repos 1.2.0-oss-source` tell you? Jun 14 18:42:04 Erm... what URL? Jun 14 18:42:24 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/source Jun 14 18:43:29 ali1234: are you running `zypper si` as root? Jun 14 18:43:47 i have tried with and without, neither one works Jun 14 18:44:09 :-/ Jun 14 18:44:16 ali1234: What are your error messages? Jun 14 18:44:21 none Jun 14 18:44:30 it just exits without doing anything Jun 14 18:45:48 for example: http://pastebin.com/GmUXeQjB Jun 14 18:46:02 after entering "y" it instantly exits with no error Jun 14 18:46:15 same for any package Jun 14 18:47:45 so i'm wondering why my bug was closed "worksforme" when in fact it is even more broken than it was when i first reported it Jun 14 18:47:49 ali1234: Very odd. I can't explain. Looks like something is b0rked. Jun 14 18:48:24 ali1234: bug #? Jun 14 18:48:43 https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14307 Jun 14 18:48:46 Bug 14307 nor, Medium, ---, kai.chai, RESO WORKSFORME, kernel build with rpmbuild fails during prep Jun 14 18:49:02 now i can't even get as far as attempting to build the kernel Jun 14 18:49:08 because it won't download the source package Jun 14 18:49:15 so i can't actually check if that bug has been fixed or not Jun 14 18:51:28 ali1234: Well, if they can't reproduce it... there's not much else they can do. Jun 14 18:51:53 there's no way they could have successfully built the kernel using the steps i gave though Jun 14 18:52:00 if you can do it i would be interested Jun 14 18:52:14 or if you can give a valid reason why the steps i gave should not result in a properly built package Jun 14 18:52:35 until then i will report a new bug against zypper, and then reopen the first bug, and set the new bug as a blocker Jun 14 18:52:35 ali1234: I'll test it... but it'll be a few hours before I can get to a meego device to do it. Jun 14 18:53:03 any idea what product/component zypper bugs go in? Jun 14 18:55:49 ali1234: Platform / OS Middleware / Package Management Jun 14 19:00:51 ali1234, you are still unable to do that? Jun 14 19:00:57 ali1234, with the latest release? Jun 14 19:01:08 what? Jun 14 19:01:10 the kernel thing? Jun 14 19:01:42 with 1.2.0 i get this: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19153 Jun 14 19:01:45 Bug 19153 nor, Undecided, ---, qiang.z.zhang, NEW, zypper si does nothing. Jun 14 19:02:02 as such i am unable to reproduce the old kernel bug because it fails at an *earlier* point than it did before Jun 14 19:02:14 or iow the problem got even worse Jun 14 19:02:21 not better as the person claims Jun 14 19:03:48 ali1234, did you try the 14307 with the command told at comment 1 Jun 14 19:04:19 iekku: did you read my response in comment 2? Jun 14 19:04:37 ali1234, yes i did Jun 14 19:04:48 iekku: then you know the answer Jun 14 19:04:58 ali1234, not really. Jun 14 19:05:11 "Bug still happens has described in the report. Tested with running "sudo zypper si..." and "sudo rpmbuild -bp ..." and the build still fails in exactly the same way." Jun 14 19:05:40 oh, ok Jun 14 19:05:44 s/has/as/ Jun 14 19:05:44 ali1234 meant: "Bug still happens as described in the report. Tested with running "sudo zypper si..." and "sudo rpmbuild -bp ..." and the build still fails in exactly the same way." Jun 14 19:06:06 somehow i missed the commends.. Jun 14 19:06:19 i think i'm too tired to do any work related stuff Jun 14 19:06:24 ali1234, sorry Jun 14 19:08:47 iekku: sorry, i don't mean to have a go at you, i'm just frustrated by this Jun 14 19:09:21 can you #include other .yaml files w/ spectacle? Jun 14 19:11:41 evening Jun 14 19:12:05 ali1234, no problem, tried to help but i think i just caused more frustration ;) Jun 14 19:25:12 someone suggest i try out meego for my netbook Jun 14 19:25:22 can i run java desktop apps, like eclipse? Jun 14 19:32:26 fwest: you can, although its probably not ideal Jun 14 19:33:02 mwichmann, think i will have to stick with ubuntu Jun 14 19:33:10 e.g. eclipse isn't really tailored to netbook size Jun 14 19:33:21 thats not different from how it would look on ubuntu Jun 14 19:33:54 oh i have enough screen Jun 14 19:33:54 for meego you'd need to fetch someone's java bundle (e.g. from java.com) Jun 14 19:34:00 just i like to code on my sofa Jun 14 19:34:14 please help, my meego ideapad runs too fast. Jun 14 19:34:14 i think i succesfully had JRE on meego at some point Jun 14 19:34:35 can I put the cpu into powersave mode Jun 14 19:34:36 I have one, use it for freemind Jun 14 20:25:01 mwichmann: MeeGo runs Java as ideally as any other linux platform. Jun 14 20:25:32 does anyone here have a lenovo s10 (3t) with 2GB of RAM running MeeGo 1.2 (netbook in my case) Jun 14 20:25:44 I have 2GB of RAM, but MeeGo only sees 1 Jun 14 20:26:16 I think the kernel was compiled without highmem support Jun 14 20:26:31 http://wiki.meego.com/Java Jun 14 20:27:06 is that for a specific reason such as performance? Jun 14 20:27:31 trying to use rescue Initrd's recovery terminal Jun 14 20:28:16 by i cant type stuff like / and - Jun 14 20:28:21 even numbers Jun 14 20:29:26 am i missing something here or was it made like this? Jun 14 20:29:40 see instructions for Java JDK intall here: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-February/003570.html (includes links needed for java browser plugin) Jun 14 20:30:31 and if you don't have java installed how you gonna run http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ and find out about your networking? Jun 14 20:30:49 any suggestions? Jun 14 20:35:36 sergiusens: thiago: Indeed, kernel does not have HIMEM support by default. And it is for performance. Jun 14 20:36:11 can i enable it through a param or do I need to recompile my own kernel? Jun 14 20:36:12 and I only know because auke told me so. You can grep your kernel config and see. Jun 14 20:36:23 needs a recompile Jun 14 20:36:28 recompile Jun 14 20:37:11 agh... ok :-p Jun 14 20:37:40 good thing I can start using my new community obs account for :-) Jun 14 20:38:09 npm: that netalyzer thingy only succeeded in crashing my browser Jun 14 20:39:10 i can't even restart it because it crashed so bad Jun 14 20:40:03 sounds like a bug Jun 14 20:40:26 sure, but i've given up reporting bugs against ubuntu Jun 14 20:40:33 which browser Jun 14 20:40:36 firefox Jun 14 20:40:55 looks like the problem is that it opened a ff window that unity didn't like, so it didn't bother drawing it on screen Jun 14 20:41:00 make sure java works first http://java.com/en/download/installed.jsp Jun 14 20:41:06 somehow that window went modal and froze all the rest of firefox Jun 14 20:41:08 derp Jun 14 20:41:11 yes, my java works Jun 14 20:41:13 thanks gabrbedd and thiago Jun 14 20:41:37 anyway because unity decided not to draw the window (it does that all the time for no reason) i couldn't close the actually crashed bit Jun 14 20:41:38 hmm i'm running it in firefox on meego 1.2 right now Jun 14 20:41:42 so i had to kill the whole lot Jun 14 20:41:44 didn't make a modal window Jun 14 20:41:52 it's the java quickstart thing Jun 14 20:42:09 in the crashed bit of java i have this Jun 14 20:42:12 /usr/lib/firefox-4.0.1/firefox-bin http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ Jun 14 20:42:18 \_ /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java -Xbootclasspath/a:/usr/share/icedtea-web/netx.jar:/usr/share/iced Jun 14 20:42:31 oh wait, the first time, you have to accept to run certain class files Jun 14 20:42:31 but no visible firefox window to match Jun 14 20:42:31 aka give trust to icsi @ ucberkeley Jun 14 20:42:37 yes i did that Jun 14 20:42:46 the whole thing runs to completion *then* it crashes Jun 14 20:42:50 it goes through all the tests Jun 14 20:42:51 oh openjdk Jun 14 20:42:56 then it just freezes up completely Jun 14 20:43:09 yeah, i don't bother w/ open jdk... i wish it worked for me Jun 14 20:43:30 but i've been having to go against principles and deinstall it and install sun JDK Jun 14 20:44:21 yeah there it goes again Jun 14 20:44:32 it just says "Tests complete." and then it freezes Jun 14 20:44:48 i can still just go to another webpage Jun 14 20:45:05 but if i close all firefox windows, firefox carries on running in the background Jun 14 20:50:41 well sorry for crashing your browser. i was just running it to see about ipv6 on the meego netbook Jun 14 20:51:36 any pointers on how to deploy QML apps from QtCreator to a MeeGo device? I can only see examples and support for C++ UIs? Jun 14 20:52:49 if it's pure qml, just use qmlviewer... otherwise the qtcreator create new qtquick project wizard will create a C++ app viewer and deploy it for you Jun 14 20:54:29 i attempted to use it here http://ytd-meego.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/playground/ytapi-jsonviewer/ for example Jun 14 20:55:00 i was just running it to see if it could detect my ISPs new traffic shaper Jun 14 20:56:34 you probably can and will -- that's what it's for Jun 14 20:56:53 i will try it on meego then Jun 14 20:57:15 i was looking for a tool like this for a couple of days Jun 14 20:57:19 the google one can't detect it Jun 14 20:57:48 how do i connect to a remote shell using rescue initrd? Jun 14 20:58:11 but everyone knows it's there because there is a 150 post long thread on the ISP forums about lag where they admit that the new traffic shaper (which they never even mentioned previously) is the cause Jun 14 20:59:04 (it's very cool) -- see also http://mirrors.bufferbloat.net/Talks/BayBloat04262011/BayBloat.pdf Jun 14 20:59:04 oh wow what is this? Jun 14 20:59:25 the first time you load up chromium on 1.2 it pops up an extremely cryptic and scary looking warning? Jun 14 20:59:58 and watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbIozKVz73g -- Jim Gettys -- of X windows fame, on "dark buffers on the internet" Jun 14 21:00:06 "external protocol request" "chrome-extension://sakjdfhdskfjhdsfds/background.html" Jun 14 21:00:27 yes, the url really does look like someone mashed thekeyboard Jun 14 21:01:01 i already watched the thing about buffer bloat Jun 14 21:01:16 ali1234: see package chrome-meego-extension Jun 14 21:01:33 what about it? Jun 14 21:01:55 that's where the message comes from i believe Jun 14 21:02:03 it's already reported? Jun 14 21:02:57 java is not in the meego repos? Jun 14 21:03:30 "JAVA+YOU" Jun 14 21:03:46 no, java is oracles Jun 14 21:03:48 ...and it has no idea what OS i am running Jun 14 21:03:59 peraps openjdk Jun 14 21:04:01 i don't see "meego" Jun 14 21:04:10 you have to use the fedora one Jun 14 21:04:19 this sucks from a UX perspective, i hope you guys realise this Jun 14 21:04:27 there isn't any fedora one Jun 14 21:04:33 there's only "linux" Jun 14 21:04:45 the one that says 32 bit RPM format Jun 14 21:05:00 i will take the bin file Jun 14 21:05:02 run the script as the regular user so it doesn't install Jun 14 21:05:07 and just unpacks the rpms Jun 14 21:05:16 meh Jun 14 21:05:20 then throw out the javadb rpms and just install the jdk one Jun 14 21:05:24 i will justtake the bin file and install it properly Jun 14 21:05:46 "properly" means it does stuff you may not want Jun 14 21:06:00 like install a bunch of javadb rpms that i'll never use Jun 14 21:06:08 well, installing fedora rpms on a not-fedora distro is pretty high on my list of "things i don't want" Jun 14 21:06:37 that's kind of like saying breathing air is on the high list of things you don't want Jun 14 21:06:49 you may drown trying Jun 14 21:06:50 hmm what's this Jun 14 21:07:07 "* please use the 32-bit version for Java applet and Java Web Start support" Jun 14 21:07:14 i bet that's why it doesn't work on my ubuntu Jun 14 21:07:48 basically since nobodys heard about meego, if you go to any site, be it adobe, oracle, or google to install all their must have software you'll be installing Fedora RPMs Jun 14 21:08:00 except google labels theirs Fedora or OpenSUSE Jun 14 21:08:01 no i won't Jun 14 21:08:10 i'll be downloading the package that says "all other" Jun 14 21:08:20 the one that's a .bin file Jun 14 21:08:27 the one that doesn't go anywhere near the package manager Jun 14 21:08:44 actually i've never seen software distributed as rpm packages before Jun 14 21:08:53 it's normally a deb file or a tgz Jun 14 21:09:00 that's silly. java updates regularly and i want to let RPM do the updating Jun 14 21:09:09 i didnt think anyone was insane enough to try to make cross platform RPMs Jun 14 21:09:26 actually, lots of people try that Jun 14 21:09:30 considering how easily RPM explodes even with native distro RPMs Jun 14 21:09:31 it's.... tricky Jun 14 21:09:32 same way i've done it for decades on fedora or RHEL boxen, some of which were for major sites Jun 14 21:09:38 boy i sure am in trolling mode today Jun 14 21:10:27 also, if you just download a rpm from a website and install it with no repo backing it, you won't get any updates Jun 14 21:10:46 Well it googles case their chrome RPM claims it's for Fedora or OpenSuse but fails at meego because meego doesn't have certain expected dependencies Jun 14 21:10:48 unless the java rpm also messes with your repo configuration Jun 14 21:10:56 and that would be even higher on my list of "DO NOT WANT" Jun 14 21:11:15 but they can be worked around either with http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Lem or by nastier hacks Jun 14 21:11:24 yes i read your email Jun 14 21:12:06 the java rpm does not mess w/ repo config Jun 14 21:12:08 google's does Jun 14 21:12:10 this download sure is slow Jun 14 21:12:16 * lbt_nur agrees on the 'nasty hack' category... except that hack implies some kind of goodness :) Jun 14 21:12:21 not sure if because of ISP or just a slow downoload :( Jun 14 21:12:50 * lbt_nur greets npm :) .... hey there ! Jun 14 21:14:57 hi lbt_nur ... nur == nuremberg? Jun 14 21:15:10 yup Jun 14 21:15:51 working with some nice people over here Jun 14 21:17:03 hi Jun 14 21:17:15 i can't seem to install meego DE on my n900 Jun 14 21:17:21 can anybody help Jun 14 21:17:22 ? Jun 14 21:20:48 http://paste.kde.org/82423 Jun 14 21:21:14 anyone? Jun 14 21:22:10 -.- Jun 14 21:22:42 admiral0: it's kinda late ;) Jun 14 21:22:54 admiral0: are you sure you want to overwrite your maemo installation? it's best to dualboot Jun 14 21:23:44 i'm hardcore Jun 14 21:23:57 npm: i just tried to install google chrome RPM and it *looks* like it's going to work but then it just sits on "installing" for ever Jun 14 21:23:58 no bother to dissuade me Jun 14 21:23:59 s/hardcore/inviting a diasaster/ Jun 14 21:24:01 pretty bad really Jun 14 21:24:05 i backed up everything Jun 14 21:24:58 admiral0: still, it's simply bad for your device to reflash it again and again Jun 14 21:25:09 it's not like you can replace the internal flash easily Jun 14 21:25:12 and now the window manager has gone crazy Jun 14 21:25:27 i had my mb replaced by nokia (usb thingie) Jun 14 21:25:38 a couple of flashes won't kill it Jun 14 21:25:52 admiral0: when the DE devs tell you not to do it unless you know what you're doing then the fact that you ask for help in the wrong chan suggests.... you may not :) Jun 14 21:26:04 meego-dev? Jun 14 21:26:05 no matter what i do i just get "myzone"plastered over everything Jun 14 21:26:09 i am no noob dudes Jun 14 21:26:17 admiral0: then please listen Jun 14 21:26:27 get a cheap-o 2GB microSD Jun 14 21:28:17 i am no noob dudes Jun 14 21:28:29 dammit Jun 14 21:28:38 i thoought i was in console Jun 14 21:29:27 fail Jun 14 21:29:35 now the whole UI has crashed Jun 14 21:29:42 yeah up works as expected Jun 14 21:29:45 seriosuly does anyone even test this stuff before it's released? Jun 14 21:30:12 ali1234: let me explain how opensource works.... Jun 14 21:30:20 on second thoughts.... Jun 14 21:30:36 lbt_nur: 1.2.0 is significantly more buggy than the RCs that came out in may Jun 14 21:30:41 sorry had to step away....... must go pickup son early... back later Jun 14 21:30:58 it's like someone broke into the repo the day before it was released and inserted hundreds and hundreds of bugs Jun 14 21:31:30 It's more of a feature freeze than a stable release it seems ;) Jun 14 21:31:47 it's stable... it's just not reliable Jun 14 21:32:00 which is not as insane as it sounds Jun 14 21:32:07 i just wonder what's the point of even calling it a release when it's much lower quality than the development versions that came out a few days earlier Jun 14 21:32:26 ali1234: how many devs have you got building a product against it? Jun 14 21:32:32 i mean if i want to get anything done with this i'm going to have to go back to like a 1.1.90 version or something Jun 14 21:32:52 i get "Unable to enumerate USB devices!" Jun 14 21:32:52 * lbt_nur continues to be amazed that people think MeeGo is a distro Jun 14 21:33:40 yes, that's it, continue to make excuses Jun 14 21:33:48 if meego doesn't work properly, it's my fault Jun 14 21:34:00 because i should have just fixed every bug before i even knew about them Jun 14 21:34:03 nope... but your expecatiions are wrong Jun 14 21:34:11 and it's not your fault Jun 14 21:34:29 why is it wrong to expect that 1.2.0 doesn't have new bugs that weren't in 1.1.90? Jun 14 21:35:38 because the UX isn't the focus of MeeGo Jun 14 21:35:47 the bugs aren't all in the UX Jun 14 21:35:54 fair answer Jun 14 21:35:57 zypper si doesn't even work Jun 14 21:36:11 and it looks like the whole X server has crashed as well Jun 14 21:36:28 this is i would suspect hardware errors if it wasn't for the fact that all the other OS on this machine work perfectly Jun 14 21:37:28 i found the issue Jun 14 21:37:34 it was libusb Jun 14 21:37:49 i downloaded ubuntu deb Jun 14 21:38:10 and preloaded it Jun 14 21:38:43 so if someone from arch or chakra comes with the same issue say to them it's libusb Jun 14 21:39:05 jeez what's with wiki.meego.com? DDoS? Jun 14 21:39:10 what's wrong with libusb? Jun 14 21:39:17 i dunno Jun 14 21:39:28 flasher didn't like it Jun 14 21:39:36 ah maybe it's a version mismatch Jun 14 21:39:44 Unable to enumerate USB devices! Jun 14 21:39:46 flasher is not open source right? Jun 14 21:39:50 nope Jun 14 21:39:55 or you got a binary either way Jun 14 21:39:59 so that's probably it Jun 14 21:40:01 they could have statically compiled it Jun 14 21:40:06 but they didn't Jun 14 21:40:15 i think there's multiple versions of it actually Jun 14 21:40:20 it's same version btw Jun 14 21:40:29 pretty sure that i always download the one that says "32 bit static tgz" Jun 14 21:40:32 and it's like 10mb Jun 14 21:40:39 but maybe i'm thinking of something else Jun 14 21:40:39 strange Jun 14 21:40:51 ldd says some libs are dynlinked Jun 14 21:40:54 Saviq: ?? Jun 14 21:40:58 WFM.... Jun 14 21:41:06 is it slow or being changed? Jun 14 21:41:13 lbt_nur: sloooow Jun 14 21:41:14 ali1234: is it normal for the n900 to sit quiet? Jun 14 21:41:32 term is busy Jun 14 21:41:38 but no output Jun 14 21:41:50 Saviq: not here... Jun 14 21:42:09 lbt_nur: though it was me, but all the other *.meego.com seem to work fine Jun 14 21:42:20 lbt_nur: it's fine if it's just me Jun 14 21:42:42 * lbt_nur wishes our external monitoring in IT was in better shape Jun 14 21:42:55 but it's not high on the prio Jun 14 21:43:34 npm: ok, i installed the jre rpm, java still doesn't work in chromium though Jun 14 21:43:47 it just says "missing plugin" Jun 14 21:45:25 ohkay, anyone managed to get additional libraries into SDK sysroot? tried `mad-admin xrpm`, but it seems repo.meego.com uses some rpm cpio format that's unsupported in madde :/ Jun 14 21:48:54 aaaaand... finally got it working Jun 14 21:50:32 Saviq: that is kinda lame :/ Jun 14 21:50:55 alterego: kinda Jun 14 21:51:07 alterego: fortunately there are other (documented) ways Jun 14 21:51:36 Nice :) Jun 14 21:59:51 npm: netalyzr detects 820 ms buffer latency Jun 14 22:00:06 but in some applications the lag is more like 8 seconds Jun 14 22:04:13 ali1234: you're looking at network performance? Jun 14 22:04:24 not really no Jun 14 22:04:28 this is not meego related Jun 14 22:04:34 it's my ISP Jun 14 22:04:36 Oh, m'kay Jun 14 22:04:46 http://forum.demon.net/topic/world-of-warcraft-latency-issues Jun 14 22:04:57 You play warcraft? Jun 14 22:04:59 loltency. Jun 14 22:05:00 i don't play WoW - their broken packet shaper is affecting all kinds of things Jun 14 22:05:08 Ah, m'kat ;) Jun 14 22:05:12 ~m'kay .. Jun 14 22:05:13 but the WoW players are the most vocal :) Jun 14 22:05:25 Heh Jun 14 22:05:47 so i'm just trying to pin down exactly what it does and does not affect so that i can raise a ticket that they can't just fix by whitelisting one IP address Jun 14 22:09:09 Wouldn't that be a good thing? Jun 14 22:09:22 I found with my previous ISP, they didn't limit SSH, Jun 14 22:09:24 what do you mean? Jun 14 22:09:27 yes, same here Jun 14 22:09:37 if i tunnel the affected programs through ssh, there is no latency Jun 14 22:09:43 So I used to download large files to a remote server, then SCP them to my local network :) Jun 14 22:09:45 i even posted to that affect on the forum thread Jun 14 22:09:57 Heh, they should all setup a proxy? :) Jun 14 22:10:01 ali1234: Presumably you're not going through the affected hops in that case. Jun 14 22:10:08 yes, i posted a link to how to run WoW over ssh Jun 14 22:10:19 SpeedEvil: no, same server, different protocol Jun 14 22:10:20 Heh Jun 14 22:10:54 but the thing is Jun 14 22:11:39 well, whitelisting on a per IP basis is not going to help me Jun 14 22:11:47 it will fix it for the WoW players Jun 14 22:11:53 but i don't play WoW, so i'm not helped Jun 14 22:12:00 unless they whitelist every IP address ever Jun 14 22:12:10 but then i might as well just ask them to turn off their packet shaper Jun 14 22:12:15 which they clearly are not going to do Jun 14 22:12:25 * SpeedEvil parts the channel. "At least I have chicken" Jun 14 22:14:28 so basically i need to figure out how to raise the problem as a fault that perfectly matches what the packet shaper does Jun 14 22:14:39 that way they can't refuse to fix it, and they can't fix it without fixing it for everyone Jun 14 22:15:06 but to do that i need to figure out what the shaper is actually doing Jun 14 22:15:48 ali1234: I remember that plusnet actually sets TOS bbyte on packets going through the shaper, so you can see the clas Jun 14 22:15:49 s Jun 14 22:16:16 this seems to only affect outgoing packets Jun 14 22:16:37 but i will check that out Jun 14 22:16:39 That seems, odd. Jun 14 22:16:52 You're async right? Jun 14 22:16:58 yes Jun 14 22:17:01 ADSL Jun 14 22:17:08 ali1234: Does the same happen to other pservers if you use WoW packets? Jun 14 22:17:36 i dunno, i don't know what WoW packets are Jun 14 22:22:27 I should probably head to bed soon. Jun 14 22:49:46 http://www.visionmobile.com/blog/2011/06/developer-economics-2011-winners-and-losers-in-the-platform-race/ Jun 14 22:50:28 Rather positive press coverage of MeeGo. Big up to DawnFoster and qgil, who are implicitly praised by the article author. Jun 14 22:53:28 Ah, and I shouldn't neglect to mention Bob Spencer and texrat as well. You guys are doing a great job. Jun 14 23:15:42 the article talks about JavaME being abandoned... and doesn't mention Oracle pushing http://javafx.com/ these days Jun 15 00:31:16 possible to connect to a remote shell using the rescue initad ? Jun 15 01:22:32 #list Jun 15 01:22:33 zergmk2: Admin, Channel, Config, Misc, Notify, Owner, and User Jun 15 02:01:19 hiyas **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 15 02:59:57 2011