**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 22 02:59:57 2011 Jun 22 03:01:26 Hi! is there any 1.2 preview for the n900? Jun 22 03:34:21 Look for MeeGO Community Edition for N900. It's first release is scheduled for tomorrow 22nd Jun 22 03:37:25 :) Jun 22 03:38:18 it *should* be released tomorrow :) Jun 22 03:39:45 those working on it are likely to be either drunk, asleep, or both. Jun 22 03:42:28 does it boot up quickly now? :) Jun 22 03:43:26 latest from Wiki page says 62s Jun 22 03:43:37 I think..from SD, I think :) I think too much Jun 22 03:43:48 20 or 30 seconds quicker than the last time my friend tried it iirc Jun 22 03:44:17 i just remember i commented on how fast the netbook edition booted on my netbook, and he thought i was joking lol Jun 22 03:44:25 I plan to install it on the eMMC and remove Maemo. Jun 22 03:44:27 yeah, 60 seconds is still a tad too fast but at least it's better Jun 22 03:44:31 err Jun 22 03:44:31 and work on that Jun 22 03:44:32 too slow Jun 22 03:44:55 * SpeedEvil tries to remember stock n900 boot time. Jun 22 03:45:00 27s comes to mind. Jun 22 03:46:18 mine's not that fast... Jun 22 03:46:30 from starting to useable Jun 22 03:49:42 actually considering getting an n900 now lol Jun 22 03:50:03 :) Jun 22 03:50:09 since the n9 announcement is so disappointing Jun 22 03:52:01 why ? Jun 22 03:52:21 pretty much boils down to no keyboard Jun 22 03:52:36 :) Jun 22 03:53:03 i want an n950 but apparently there's only a limited number of them in existence Jun 22 03:53:13 yup and it's not for sale Jun 22 03:53:50 pretty much gonna be anohter iphone, and i hate my iphone! that's why iw as waiting for the n950 Jun 22 03:54:16 iPhone doesn't have a keyboard Jun 22 03:54:16 what ever happened to that circa 2007 tech demo of the nokia phone with a tactile feedback touchscreen Jun 22 03:54:22 exactly Jun 22 03:54:37 the n9 is basically another iphone clone slab phone Jun 22 03:54:39 so why iPhone over N9? Jun 22 03:54:42 oh no :) Jun 22 03:54:49 i wanted an n950 Jun 22 03:54:51 not an n9 Jun 22 03:55:04 me too...but that's it Jun 22 03:55:05 moofree: iphones are not multitaskers Jun 22 03:55:06 what the n950 is being touted as, that's what i was expecting as the n9 Jun 22 03:55:14 iphone sucks in so many ways Jun 22 03:55:24 i couldn't wait to give nokia my hundreds of dollars Jun 22 03:55:31 but now... i don't know what to get :\ Jun 22 03:56:16 so both devices have no keyboard... and you still prefer the iPhone? Jun 22 03:56:24 no Jun 22 03:56:26 i hate the iphone! Jun 22 03:56:51 but you said you're gonna buy it cause the N9 doesn't have a keyboard... Jun 22 03:56:53 * anidel_ is confused Jun 22 03:57:06 ahhh I read it correctly now... Jun 22 03:57:26 anyway...it's pretty much a totally different phone than iPhone Jun 22 03:57:34 but for me it's time to go to sleep Jun 22 03:57:53 i'm what? Jun 22 03:57:54 i have an iphone right now, i wnted to get an n9050, but since it was announced as the n9 without a keyboard, i don't know what to get now Jun 22 03:57:57 i'm confused about how you got that i thought the iphone was goobetter lol Jun 22 03:58:00 and of course my internet is frozen so i'm typing at a blank putty screen........ Jun 22 03:58:12 hahaha stupid irc cfreezing on me Jun 22 03:58:18 :) Jun 22 03:58:19 jeeze this is annoying Jun 22 03:58:48 yeah, essentially n9: too much like iphone which i hate Jun 22 03:59:00 i wanted, you know, a successor to the n900 Jun 22 03:59:25 all of us Jun 22 03:59:39 but I still don't see any resemblance to iPhone Jun 22 03:59:46 slab phone Jun 22 04:00:05 i don't know how you don't see a resemblance to the iphone Jun 22 04:00:31 we clearly have different ways of seeing things, that's it Jun 22 04:02:03 only difference it doesn't have that button at the bottom and it's curved so it scratches easier :P Jun 22 04:02:06 ffit'd be nice if i could type and have text show up as i typed lol Jun 22 04:02:09 cfinally Jun 22 04:02:32 almost two minutes there :\ Jun 22 04:28:18 Jaffa: underneath the rules of meego app compliance , ie meego api only Jun 22 04:39:07 morning Jun 22 05:15:50 hola Jun 22 05:16:00 hola Jun 22 05:16:33 my kingdom for a n950 lol... Jun 22 05:16:55 * Jay_BEE quickly ratchets up a QML "Hello World" app Jun 22 05:17:03 we collect kingdoms, so sign up for the developer device program Jun 22 05:17:32 i signed up via the developer.nokia.com site Jun 22 05:17:55 since my app will be commercial Jun 22 05:19:01 * dm8tbr has touched an N950 once, do I get a kingdom? ;) Jun 22 05:19:56 dm8tbr I believe the idea is to give your kingdom for one or you could give me your kingdom which I could use to get the n950 heh Jun 22 05:20:41 dammit :) Jun 22 05:27:00 so the link http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_on_Beagleboard_from_scratch says meego does not run anymore on beagleboard. Isn't the SGX drivers provided by TI open source? Jun 22 05:27:05 no Jun 22 05:28:02 we talking about this OMAP35x_Graphics_SDK_setuplinux_3_00_00_06.bin ? Jun 22 05:28:51 right, that's not open source, it's closed binaries Jun 22 05:29:01 the problem is in that it's not built for hardfp ABI Jun 22 05:35:24 but do the SGX drivers require a specific kernel version? Jun 22 05:35:43 ABI means 'different way of calling functions' Jun 22 05:36:39 yes, I know. You pass float parameters in float registers Jun 22 05:37:12 right Jun 22 05:37:24 and well, the current binaries pass parameters in integer registers Jun 22 05:38:16 Silly question: Can I install and run all custom yum packages on a meego if: The architecture of the package is correct, I have the needed deps Jun 22 05:38:39 but the kernel modules are shipped with source code? Jun 22 05:38:47 marcompile: yes Jun 22 05:38:47 just the userspace libs are the problem? Jun 22 05:38:55 userspace libs are the problem and not 'just' :) Jun 22 05:39:02 someone from TI should just build a hardfp version of them Jun 22 05:39:12 it's really simple, just they aren't releasing any yet Jun 22 05:39:37 has anyone tried to contact them and ask for it? Jun 22 05:40:27 they're saying june/july, i think Jun 22 05:40:31 linaro is moving to armhf too so Jun 22 05:40:33 can i install meego simulator ? Jun 22 05:41:42 what about the video decode and dsp stuff Jun 22 05:41:47 is that broken too? Jun 22 05:42:20 nah, that loads into a different processor Jun 22 05:42:37 but the dsp-link stuff is working fine still? Jun 22 05:43:00 if that isn't closed source binaries for userland, then yes Jun 22 05:43:12 Stskeeps: june/july for what? SGX source code? or hardfp versions? Jun 22 05:43:37 hardfp versions Jun 22 05:43:46 you'll see pigs flying before SGX source code comes out Jun 22 05:44:00 well, I'm not sure what is included. I think they have gstreamer modules, but idk if its opensource or binary Jun 22 05:44:12 think they're oss Jun 22 05:44:43 at least one is in the non-free section: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/g/gst-gltexture/ Jun 22 05:45:24 that's harmattan, no idea what's going on there :P Jun 22 05:45:32 we're talking about beagle/generic omap3 Jun 22 05:45:49 ahh Jun 22 05:46:00 sorry for the noise Jun 22 06:04:31 hello Jun 22 06:04:52 i have advanced questions about Nokia N9 and N950 Jun 22 06:05:08 best to ask nokia straight then Jun 22 06:05:38 Stskeeps: where is their irc channel ? Jun 22 06:10:20 i wanted to know if there are the sames pb on nokia meego devices than on N900 i talk about "root fs shitty partitionnning" and "exchanges troubles with gmail" Jun 22 06:10:43 if not i'll buy n9, if yes i'll wait for another meegophone Jun 22 06:11:05 well, it's not really in comsumer hands yet so youll have to wait Jun 22 06:11:36 Stskeeps: no one here as tested it yet ? Jun 22 06:12:24 A phone that gets released later this year? Jun 22 06:12:56 on developer.nokia.com is asked for a N950 but i see nowhere a hint to know that i already applied for.... doest it means registration process is not finished ? Jun 22 06:13:20 Ascen: non, a phone that not even been anounced Jun 22 06:16:09 well, its been announced at least Jun 22 06:19:41 marcompile: the phone a really wanted does not exist and will likely never exist : its basically a Nokia N9 + N950 keyboard + USB Host + HDMI + Bluetooth 4.0+ LTE + FM RX/TX + SD card slot + Open bootloader + double core arm or atom Jun 22 06:20:25 all these things seems pretty simlpe to me but no constructor seems to want to let out a such complete product... too bad Jun 22 06:21:25 Harmattan Ui + programs Guidelines are wonderfull to me (not even equalled by iOS or WebOS) but there are some hardware points over which i can't compromise Jun 22 06:21:51 * TheBootroo wonders the hell why he can't be phone constructor himself Jun 22 06:25:22 Stskeeps: any chance to see Harmattan UI over MeeGo CE for N900 one day (overall the timeline and some apps like email and accuweather) Jun 22 06:25:43 honestly i think it'd be better if people steered clear of closed UI Jun 22 06:26:05 Stskeeps: wut N Jun 22 06:26:09 Stskeeps: wut ? Jun 22 06:26:41 TheBootroo: well, think of it - one of the problems that people always have with nokia devices is that once nokia stops caring, the UI's are closed down and cannot be modified Jun 22 06:27:12 we have a working, nice-looking basic user interface, isn't that something to build on top of, to make sure we're never tied to those things again? Jun 22 06:27:30 Stskeeps: but reference UX really sucks and all proposals to enhance it are ignored, and i don't have time to create it entirely alone, i have too many projects by side Jun 22 06:27:54 Stskeeps: i don't like the move to QML Jun 22 06:28:03 of course, noone has time to do it alone, but even in very short time we've improved matters quite a lot in CE Jun 22 06:28:03 Stskeeps: MTF is better IMHO Jun 22 06:28:22 Stskeeps: 100% ACK Jun 22 06:29:01 Stskeeps: any way we could get Panels or Timeline with events in Handset UX, a beautiful way ? (i can make mockups, i like it) Jun 22 06:29:31 well, I have to sleep now. thanks for all the information. I'll be back soon Jun 22 06:29:33 TheBootroo: well, if you like MTF you're welcome to send patches Jun 22 06:30:13 Stskeeps: i can't even get it compiling on my linux laptop, and my connexion at home sux Jun 22 06:30:42 e.g. is proposed this solution for landscape enhancement in meego apps , especially for menu : http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3081 Jun 22 06:31:22 * Jay_BEE searches youtube for a video showing MeeGo CE on N900 Jun 22 06:31:25 i will make a panel/timeline mockup soon, and a lockscreen/screensaver one too (in fact i already have one to just finish) Jun 22 06:31:43 Jay_BEE: hopefully amandalam will make one of our summer release Jun 22 06:31:56 amandalam? Jun 22 06:32:03 what's that? Jun 22 06:32:06 a youtube user Jun 22 06:32:16 oh Jun 22 06:32:34 I should just get off my lazy duff and install it Jun 22 06:34:25 found one Jun 22 06:35:20 this one is by amadahoic Jun 22 06:35:35 Stskeeps: if a do a plain Qt example for my timeline and the menu, any chance to get it 'copied' by meego handset guys ? i really want to help but don't have enough time and internet rate to really integrate the meego project as a developer ATM Jun 22 06:35:36 ah, yeah Jun 22 06:36:26 Jay_BEE: things have improved a lot in 3 weeks :) Jun 22 06:36:28 morn lbt_nur Jun 22 06:36:43 morning Stskeeps Jun 22 06:36:51 how goes it? Jun 22 06:36:58 ah, the usua Jun 22 06:36:59 l Jun 22 06:37:39 looking at qemu bugs Jun 22 06:37:41 good then Jun 22 06:37:57 Stskeeps: is the UX on the N900 CE the same as I would see on a tablet? Jun 22 06:38:14 got yourselves a CE strategy and vision yet ... especially now you'll have new toys to play with :) Jun 22 06:38:26 lbt_nur: saw my CE_Factsheet? Jun 22 06:38:42 Jay_BEE: ours is basically a community productization of handset ux.. long term would be tablet ux based Jun 22 06:39:02 lbt_nur: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/CE_Factsheet Jun 22 06:39:33 so panels on the handset? I think panels are perfect for a tablet, but not for a handset Jun 22 06:39:38 Stskeeps: nope - didn't spot that ... reading Jun 22 06:39:53 Stskeeps: could we propose a lot a modifications over tablet ux to get it really adapted to smal sized screens, and ty to be on pair with N9 Ui which is almost perfect ? Jun 22 06:40:12 * Jay_BEE clicks the linkage Jun 22 06:40:13 TheBootroo: actually tablet ux works fairly decently on small sized screens Jun 22 06:40:36 Stskeeps: but is not optimized and has a lot of glitches Jun 22 06:41:00 TheBootroo: there's many good reasons for that, many which are being fixed Jun 22 06:41:06 Stskeeps: that'd why meego has a very bad reputation of a 'not_finished_so_no_future' product Jun 22 06:41:25 and tablet ux is surprisingily good :P Jun 22 06:41:51 if at least i could have a working version of tablet ux on x86 ubuntu with nvidia card, i could very help Jun 22 06:41:59 but i can't help if a can't test Jun 22 06:42:03 :nod: Jun 22 06:43:10 TheBootroo: the thing is that the tablet ux is notoriously tied to the meego stack Jun 22 06:43:16 so having it on ubuntu is problematic Jun 22 06:43:37 is there really no way to keep an updated debian x86 version of meego packages using OBS to allow speed developping without expensive/inexisting/underpowered device ? Jun 22 06:43:52 TheBootroo: it takes quite a lot of effort to package up the stuff Jun 22 06:44:23 indeed, the Debian pkg-meego folks are apparently having a hard time of it Jun 22 06:44:37 Stskeeps: i know and that is surely the meego stack libs that i can't achieve to compile on my compute.... and i can't even think abuot keeping all that stuff updating Jun 22 06:44:52 that why we need official packages Jun 22 06:45:44 and i i had a RPM based distro ? like opensus or fedora ? could i run easily meego UX on it without emulation or virtualization Jun 22 06:46:00 not really Jun 22 06:46:04 bad Jun 22 06:46:07 very bad Jun 22 06:46:32 so no way for 80% of people to test/develop/use meego Jun 22 06:46:39 easiest way to run meego without real hardware is still a VM, I think Jun 22 06:46:49 and N900 is underpower unfortunately Jun 22 06:46:59 Botsik: VM doesn't work Jun 22 06:47:24 Botsik: meego needs to many hard side stuff (KVM, SSSE3, intel graphisc...) Jun 22 06:47:55 TheBootroo Or you could just try to install meego for your pc and then try to install and configure meego ux to be launched there. Jun 22 06:47:56 apparently I have all of those then Jun 22 06:48:13 lamikr: meego CAN'T run on my pc Jun 22 06:48:46 Botsik: all a those are available on recent netbookx Jun 22 06:49:07 not on a 2 years old 17 inches HP laptop with nvidia gaphics Jun 22 06:49:28 and i have a eee Box too, with intel atom but yet nvidia graphics Jun 22 06:49:36 so no way to test meego on it Jun 22 06:50:53 Stskeeps: but why the hell does meego guys hard coded that graphisc MUST be intel and processor MUST be SSSE3 and alll Jun 22 06:51:04 TheBootroo Oh, I didn't realize that. Usually I test with netbook where things works ok. (in addition of n900) Jun 22 06:51:07 TheBootroo: this make meego extremely hard to test and to develop Jun 22 06:51:17 TheBootroo: ask the intel guys, i thought it was idiotic :) the 'must be intel graphics' is not totally true Jun 22 06:51:20 people have it working on nvidia Jun 22 06:51:29 Stskeeps: great n900 ce factsheet Jun 22 06:51:38 lamikr: i don't have netbook and i don't sse how i could develop on such small devices Jun 22 06:52:30 i will not pay 500€ for a device i will not use Jun 22 06:52:49 i must find a way to run meego on my EEE Box or on my laptop Jun 22 06:53:00 so with nvidia graphics Jun 22 06:53:30 Ok... So display drivers are the biggest problem for you and that prevent even the normal install? (because once you have image installed, maybe you could rebuild yourself the display driver needed.) Jun 22 06:53:49 Stskeeps: why couldn't meego use Nouveau drivers for nvidia,they work good to dispay stuff without particular bugs and are packed into linux kernel Jun 22 06:54:10 i don't see why meego kernel as been deleted some drivers Jun 22 06:54:50 lamikr: the iamge doesnt even start and throws me some error about missing intel drivers and all Jun 22 06:55:25 TheBootroo: on x86 you're best off if you have all-intel-hw because that's what it will be optimized for as on the x86 side meego is close to a purely intel thing Jun 22 06:55:50 cue someone saying that Nvidia is free to join MeeGo and fix that Jun 22 06:56:28 dm8tbr: i don't need optimization, i need it jsut work, i don't care about 500ms delay or 10-20 additional FPS Jun 22 06:57:09 oh did I say optimized? I meant locked-in Jun 22 06:57:33 TheBootroo Ok, one workaround that could work is that if you can build another kernel in obs with nouveau enabled and then modify the ks file from some of the existing images in a way that image takes your own kernel. Jun 22 06:57:47 there's nothing stopping anyone from submitting and maintaining the nouveau support, fwiw Jun 22 06:57:53 i think meego UXes should be avaiblable in a repos allowing to install them a simple Desktop environmant on standard linux distro, as we do for gnome, kde, openbox... Jun 22 06:58:13 TheBootroo: except you miss the point, the ux's aren't what is interesting, the stack is :P Jun 22 06:58:56 Stskeeps: the stack will be installed by packages dependencies, just like KDE desktop installs nemopuk, kdelibs...etc Jun 22 06:59:05 the rest of meego is core linux Jun 22 06:59:13 all what is not linux is pure meego sutff Jun 22 06:59:36 so i don't see why it couldn't be installed on standard linux Jun 22 07:00:22 TheBootroo: someone tried that with Smeegol, they got themselves a bloody nose Jun 22 07:00:40 and from my point of interest, UX is the most important, because stack is alreeady stabilized and i can't help if not, bu i can test and enhance UX Jun 22 07:00:56 dm8tbr: which proves that meego distribution model is not yet god Jun 22 07:00:59 *good Jun 22 07:01:49 * Jay_BEE attempts to install the meego ce Jun 22 07:01:58 a developer shloud be able to test meego programs under his usual linux distro, all programs even tablet UX panels and all Jun 22 07:02:20 and at the moment there's just no way Jun 22 07:03:55 TheBootroo: i think you're speaking to the choir but the solution isn't as easy as it sounds Jun 22 07:04:29 and with my bad connexion i can't even think about building my own image for scratche because it WILL fail, i can't even dl a simple image these days, it get stuck at 200mo or tries to dl more than image size and corrupts archive (like 467mo of 450 image) Jun 22 07:05:55 i don't think i put u-boot on here since my n900 crash when heading for CES Jun 22 07:06:12 Stskeeps: i can't do more at the moment Jun 22 07:07:07 TheBootroo: if you can't even download an image, you will anyway be stuck, even if all you wants works Jun 22 07:07:29 Stskeeps: why not just provide Live ISO of Meego UX and remove hardware tests from it to allow running on every Liux kernel supported hardware ? Jun 22 07:07:51 * RST38h moos triupmhantly Jun 22 07:08:00 HELO Stskeeps Jun 22 07:08:32 * Jay_BEE sees that he is running power46 Jun 22 07:08:47 chouchoune: if i know that an image is reay and works i can find a way to dl it, but i just can't dl one image per day to see if it works or not, and can't dl over 500 packages to build my own Jun 22 07:08:49 Jay_BEE: get uboot matching that then Jun 22 07:09:16 Stskeeps: ah yeah... memory faded a bit there hehe Jun 22 07:09:36 TheBootroo: like any distribution, nothing's going to happen until someone contributes Jun 22 07:10:19 Stskeeps: and who contributes then ? i want to contribute but i cant til this problem is not fixed ! Jun 22 07:10:40 TheBootroo: well, that's when you gang up with someone else to do it, working in a team Jun 22 07:11:53 i don't know anybody like tha Jun 22 07:12:57 heh... extras-devel is disabled Jun 22 07:12:58 Stskeeps: my eeebox is ION plateform so is there quick even dirty fix to run meego Tablet UX and install Jun 22 07:13:13 then the best way is to make a wiki page proposing a project for this, and send to meego-community or meego-dev Jun 22 07:13:18 and gather interested participants Jun 22 07:13:41 * Jay_BEE enables it Jun 22 07:13:48 Stskeeps: Your comment at 05:26 presumably relates to a conversation 7 hours earlier (but I've lost the context ;-)) Jun 22 07:14:00 Jaffa: i commented at 6:26am my time? dear god Jun 22 07:14:25 [23:06] Stskeeps: Did you have a "MeeGo Compliant" app in mind, btw for your Harmattan compatibility challenge? Jun 22 07:14:26 Stskeeps: Muchos lag? ;-) Jun 22 07:14:54 Stskeeps: Ah yes. That was it. Do we know of a MeeGo Compliant app already? :-) Jun 22 07:15:03 Jaffa: there's test cases to check, so Jun 22 07:15:12 * Jaffa 'd be willing to give it a go (not for the money, but to support his other points) Jun 22 07:16:28 * RST38h notices that the Battle of Wikipedians over the "Meego Compliance" title is continuing Jun 22 07:16:35 url? Jun 22 07:16:48 Stskeeps: Here! Jun 22 07:17:04 ah Jun 22 07:17:24 For Tentacled's sake, just stuff it. It is enough for the poor Harmattan to be late, hated by the mad Nokian CEO, and frowned upon by Intel. Jun 22 07:18:11 It is the first freaking physical device that will let you write USABLE QML/QMobility based apps. Isn't that enough? For the first shot? Jun 22 07:18:22 RST38h: harmattan is great great amazing wonderful great Jun 22 07:18:55 RST38h: Surely people should be saving up for an Aava to use as their primary device and be happy with the Handset UX?! Jun 22 07:19:15 Jaffa: how coudl they be Jun 22 07:19:27 Jaffa: I start saving for something when it hits the shelves and gets reviewed by a few people Jun 22 07:19:31 Jaffa: aava is not yet available Jun 22 07:19:44 * Jay_BEE crosses his fingers and installs the kp46 u-boot Jun 22 07:19:51 eww x86 Jun 22 07:19:52 TheBootroo: It is. But it's an OEM platform which costs thousands of $CURRENCY Jun 22 07:19:55 Jaffa: The consumer-usable Aava is pure vapor right now Jun 22 07:20:04 I didn't say consumer-Aava ;-) Jun 22 07:20:12 Jaffa: Same as a few other Meego handsets Jun 22 07:20:25 its shit if we cant get it for max 600€ Jun 22 07:20:45 Well, it's shit as a phone anyway. What's the battery life like? Jun 22 07:20:54 RST38h: there are no other meego handset but the n9 Jun 22 07:20:57 I dunno. How can I tell? Jun 22 07:21:08 I think we've proved our point :) Jun 22 07:21:21 There is simply no data to be positive or negative about Aava, other than it not being ready Jun 22 07:22:02 aye... appman so slow... Jun 22 07:22:03 ok i will wait and buy the N9, at least i will have a fully working meego device Jun 22 07:22:29 Just picked up: http://wiki.meego.com/Harmattan_Python. Looks great Jun 22 07:24:12 usually i like testing alpha things but in the case of meego, testing is just a real hell and pain in the ass, nothing works on 95% existing hardware : understand well, i don't criticize bugs that are normal for alpha software, but hardware restrictions dues to hard coded bits (meego should jsut run everywhere other linux does) Jun 22 07:26:07 re... power outtage :( Jun 22 07:26:39 u-boot up and running Jun 22 07:27:39 Stskeeps: any recommended image to use? Jun 22 07:28:08 -testing, n900-de, handset image Jun 22 07:28:58 Stskeeps: pin query and usb dialog things are not yet in tablet image ? Jun 22 07:29:51 i prefer handset ux, closer to harmattan guildelines which are great,and i prefer MTF to QML too, but i love panels, and appearance of tablet theme is far better.... Jun 22 07:30:38 Ah, fun: http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/ Jun 22 07:31:16 * Jay_BEE goes for the 2011-06-22 -testing Jun 22 07:33:33 RST38h: reading ... Jun 22 07:34:53 he is ruining the most promising linux-based system i ever seen Jun 22 07:34:56 this Elop is a real fool Jun 22 07:34:57 plus, harmattan is just for me the best UX for linux handset i saw out there Jun 22 07:35:19 and he sweeps (!) this all to put shitty WP7 instead.... Jun 22 07:35:33 the world is going worse and worse each day passing Jun 22 07:35:49 TheBootroo: The world has always been bad Jun 22 07:36:05 MSM: but its gettings worse Jun 22 07:36:17 I know :-( Jun 22 07:36:41 TheBootroo, thanks for actually praising MTF Jun 22 07:37:25 just hope he si not completely stupid and seeing the N9 sucess even with its prematured death anouunced, he will lead Nokia making MeeGo Phones again Jun 22 07:38:14 mikhas: i think MTF is even better than stock QWidget and QML, and should replace both in QT5 IMHO, and just use QML like syntax to replace simple CSS, to skin MTF widget Jun 22 07:38:18 With keyboards this time Jun 22 07:38:22 that would be my real dream Jun 22 07:38:27 MSM: ye Jun 22 07:38:39 wow, we have a fan here Jun 22 07:38:54 MSM: basically a Nokia N9 + N950 keyboard + USB Host + HDMI + Bluetooth 4.0+ LTE + FM RX/TX + SD card slot + Open bootloader + double core arm or atom Jun 22 07:39:07 everyone else only tells us that MTF is shit ... Jun 22 07:39:59 mikhas: i jsut can see good piece of soft when i see one and i think QML is piece of shit : syntax is good to skin widget but not to do full programming, i dont want to use interpreted language for my UI, i just wnat Jun 22 07:40:33 i just want a kind of advanced dynamic CSS to skin QGraphicsItem based widget Jun 22 07:40:59 Would be the best device Jun 22 07:41:08 advanced dynamic CSS: CSS with behaviour, IE, what Microsoft did years ago (allowing JS bits in CSS) Jun 22 07:41:24 show you support to meego here http://twitition.com/3c3ah Jun 22 07:41:38 mikhas: myabe Jun 22 07:41:45 *maybe Jun 22 07:42:30 i think we need to mass buy the N9 even if its not ideal device to show Elop he was wrong and let MeeGo a chance to come back in Nokia phones Jun 22 07:42:50 yes, everyone please buy 7 N9's Jun 22 07:42:53 :-D Jun 22 07:42:56 i will buy it even if i think the keybord and FMTX of my N900 is irreplacable Jun 22 07:43:39 and i hope and i pray God to clear elop memore about his shipt moment when he choose to let meego drop Jun 22 07:44:16 are we discussing meego.com or nokia? :P Jun 22 07:44:18 i just wish the n950 was going to go on sale, and that it had nfc Jun 22 07:44:40 "please God forgive him, he didn't know what he was doing, he was just possessed by MS daemon...3 Jun 22 07:44:56 ieatlint: N950 will NEVER be sale Jun 22 07:45:09 yes, i realize that Jun 22 07:45:11 its a given device in meego developr program Jun 22 07:46:02 ieatlint: taht why we must buy N9, to show MeeGo interset, not this phone particulary, and then maybe nokia will make a full lineup of meego (with and whithout keyboard, tablet etc ...° Jun 22 07:46:12 i'll see if i'm one of the lucky few who gets an n950, but even if so, i'll regret the lack of nfc Jun 22 07:47:07 Stskeeps: what is the green bar on top right of screen here http://wiki.meego.com/File:20000101-034513.png Jun 22 07:47:14 well, seeing as nokia doesn't seem to intend to sell the n9 in the US, it may be rather difficult Jun 22 07:47:33 at least, on nokia.com/n9 it fails to list the US as a country it will be available in Jun 22 07:47:35 TheBootroo: good question Jun 22 07:48:14 ieatlint: i already talked about that : entries exists (for france too) but are disabled the time for nokia to find partners in these countries Jun 22 07:48:36 ieatlint: look at select HTLM code Jun 22 07:48:46 well, i'm somehow 99% sure i will have an n9 Jun 22 07:49:00 still would prefer the hardware keyboard Jun 22 07:49:19 ieatlint: and since it has no keybd and is pentaband you can buy it anywhere it will work Jun 22 07:49:20 i'm holding out for hardware keyboard Jun 22 07:49:22 i'm excited that i'll be looking at a device that arguably beats the "most advanced" android device on the market Jun 22 07:49:30 Jay_BEE: hey man Jun 22 07:49:48 remember me from the conf? :P Jun 22 07:49:58 ieatlint: yeah! how are you!? Jun 22 07:50:00 we will find a case with integrated bluetooth keyboard Jun 22 07:50:10 only just catching up with work after losing a week Jun 22 07:50:24 ieatlint: losing a week to what? Jun 22 07:51:02 the conference Jun 22 07:51:20 i spent all of that week at the meego conference, and then in meetings, and wasn't able to work at all on my projects at work Jun 22 07:51:21 ieatlint: oh my... lol Jun 22 07:51:32 busy man you are Jun 22 07:51:45 nfc is fun :) Jun 22 07:51:53 nfc rocks Jun 22 07:53:04 * pabs3 still not clear what NFC actually lets you do Jun 22 07:53:27 did you watch the n9 promo video from nokia? Jun 22 07:53:41 because they demo some advanced features there Jun 22 07:53:57 Is "https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12455" fixed? Jun 22 07:53:59 Bug 12455 nor, Medium, ---, jesse.barnes, NEW, Displayed UI does not adapt to available screen resolution Jun 22 07:54:17 in the video, they transfer an image via nfc/bluetooth Jun 22 07:54:55 just tell the sending device "send via nfc", hold the receiving device next to it, and the receiving device will pair via bluetooth the sending device, transfer the file, and close the connection Jun 22 07:55:06 all with just a couple user-friendly button presses Jun 22 07:56:02 or the new speakers by nokia, where you just hold your phone next to the speakers, and it wirelessly pairs with them over bluetooth and starts playing your music with them.. Jun 22 07:56:13 or the ability to exchange phone number/email address by just holding phones next to each other… nfc is awesome Jun 22 07:57:06 the exchange phone number/email thing has been around since the palm pda dayz... Jun 22 07:58:14 via IR, yeah Jun 22 07:58:29 but name a recent device that did it Jun 22 07:59:08 wait... the n900 isn't capable of this? Jun 22 07:59:13 ieatlint: The Bump API on the iPhone Jun 22 07:59:22 in fact, the contact transfer was on the first palm device as i recall, and one of the major marketing ones Jun 22 07:59:28 Jay_BEE: It is via BT, but that's fiddly to make a device visible; accept the connection and so on Jun 22 07:59:33 /msg NickServ identify zah760310 Jun 22 07:59:42 fail Jun 22 07:59:54 LOL... nickserv fail big time Jun 22 07:59:57 Jaffa: i've heard reference to that, but not seen it used Jun 22 08:00:07 i saw obj-c, and i ran away crying Jun 22 08:00:20 ieatlint: It looks *just* like NFC, but I can't remember how it works Jun 22 08:00:25 ieatlint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZudLSKaBgM Jun 22 08:00:56 must be bt Jun 22 08:00:59 ieatlint: true, objC is ugly Jun 22 08:01:30 yeah, requiring a 3rd party app is meh Jun 22 08:01:40 very meh Jun 22 08:01:44 the C7 and (presumably) the N9 support v-card Jun 22 08:01:51 over nfc, i mean Jun 22 08:02:03 What the hall, only 650 guys want to keep MeeGO on nokia ? would it be true finally ? meego doesnt interest public ? go here and sign http://twitition.com/3c3ah or do it on facebook if you dont have twitter account Jun 22 08:02:07 the sending phone needs a 3rd party app on the c7, however Jun 22 08:02:53 I am unclear on the N9 supporting sending contacts natively over nfc Jun 22 08:03:16 could a channel admin put the link for petition in the subject of channel please, would help visibility : http://twitition.com/3c3ah Jun 22 08:03:33 well... let me back off from that meh... doing it via software isn't too bad even if it's a third-party... what makes me chuckle is seeing people adding IR doo-hickeys to their iphone to do IR remove Jun 22 08:03:36 we must hit 100 000 sign up, we are far Jun 22 08:05:07 i think so long as the receiver doesn't need a special app, it's good, because if i want to send someone my phone number, it shouldn't be "okay, but do you have ___ installed?" Jun 22 08:05:16 true Jun 22 08:05:49 hmm... something went wrong with the dd... seems to be taking forever Jun 22 08:08:14 hummmm N950 lookx really reall sexy in black Jun 22 08:08:35 but is it yet alu or plastic ? Jun 22 08:08:53 Coated aluminium (like N8, I guess) Jun 22 08:08:57 hoping i'll get mine soon, already requested Jun 22 08:09:09 will we be able to install all apps made for N9 on the N950 ? Jun 22 08:09:14 or will it be blocked ? Jun 22 08:11:02 if applications are open for another week, i wouldn't expect approvals too soon Jun 22 08:19:34 ieatlint: Bump's description of their technology is pretty cool and avoids problems with wireless network sharing, BT pairing etc: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3383447/how-does-bump-technology-work Jun 22 08:19:50 ieatlint: Allegedly the accelerometer information is fed up into the cloud and then broadcast back down Jun 22 08:23:04 SDK 1.2 20110519 fails to install on 64 bit Arch linux. Is there an alternative method to install the SDK? Jun 22 08:23:06 wow... the image copy finally finished Jun 22 08:24:45 Gah, the Harmattan qemu build is far too slow to be usable :-( Jun 22 08:25:12 Jaffa: true ? there is a harmattan ui testable in it ? Jun 22 08:26:03 * Jay_BEE boots up t3h MeeGo 1.2 CE w00t Jun 22 08:27:48 Jaffa: where did you found it ? Jun 22 08:28:23 hmm... the time is off... timezone probably set to the moon Jun 22 08:30:27 http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/unstable/beta/qemu/ is not found 404 Jun 22 08:35:58 Jaffa: i'll try to install the SDK tonight to be able to test a little harmattan UI Jun 22 08:36:20 which disk space is needed ? Jun 22 08:36:23 MeeGo 1.2 CE is nice Jun 22 08:37:32 hello all Jun 22 08:39:46 TheBootroo: It's part of the Qt SDK update. Jun 22 08:40:01 TheBootroo: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/06/21/introducing-meego-1-2-harmattan-to-the-qt-sdk/ Jun 22 08:40:19 Jaffa: oh ! you can have a working harmattan ui in qt sdk ? Jun 22 08:40:27 TheBootroo: Yup Jun 22 08:40:47 poly: you're in uncharted waters... the sdk is only validated on 32-bit linux distros Jun 22 08:41:58 Jay_BEE: i always thought that 64 bit was unappropriate for developpement Jun 22 08:42:04 try hitting up the meego-sdk email distro or even the forums, perhaps someone there has accomplished this Jun 22 08:42:31 TheBootroo: unappropriate? Jun 22 08:42:41 TheBootroo: http://twitpic.com/5f3kov Jun 22 08:44:12 Jaffa: cant see my proxy blocks all from twitter, use hostingpics.net Jun 22 08:48:07 does anyone has any idea about this error "Unable to find libthread_db matching inferior's thread library, thread debugging will not be available." Jun 22 08:48:36 fairly normal Jun 22 08:49:30 Stskeeps: is your answer to my Query?? Jun 22 08:49:33 yes Jun 22 08:50:08 how do i mount the n9 jffs2 rootfs? how are the dimensions of the nand? Jun 22 08:50:09 why is this normal ...due to this i am not able to put break points and not able to debug Jun 22 08:50:10 Jay_BEE: Ok, Thanks. Jun 22 08:50:19 BluesLee: not jffs2 Jun 22 08:50:31 bkalinga: not the reason Jun 22 08:50:36 BluesLee: BTRFS Jun 22 08:50:37 Stskeeps: is there any work around for this problem Jun 22 08:50:38 Stskeeps: i have a jffs2 here Jun 22 08:50:51 BluesLee: it's just a name Jun 22 08:50:54 poly: there is also #meego-sdk Jun 22 08:50:55 BluesLee: you have N9 ? fricking lucky one Jun 22 08:51:21 TheBootroo: i dont have an n9 Jun 22 08:51:26 BluesLee: it's quite likely a ubifs Jun 22 08:52:00 Afaik it is ext4. Jun 22 08:52:03 Stskeeps: doesnt seem so Jun 22 08:52:43 Stskeeps: " bkalinga: not the reason" i am sorry I did not get you Jun 22 08:52:43 Jaffa: can you send the pic on hostingpcs please twitter related things are blocked here Jun 22 08:53:12 TheBootroo: http://bleb.org/software/maemo/harmattan-ui-sdk.png Jun 22 08:53:27 Jaffa: kthx Jun 22 08:53:47 is there any way i can put a break point (using gdb) as currently it does not show the symbols Jun 22 08:53:52 OMG i think i poo in my pants Jun 22 08:54:00 i need this sdk Jun 22 08:54:06 Stskeeps: i mean, i edited the run script, renamed it to tar, untared it, i got a binfiles directory with emmc.bin and img.bin, used flasher to extract img.bin and it gave me a jffs2 Jun 22 08:54:18 are apps functionals ? Jun 22 08:54:30 bkalinga: install debuginfo packages Jun 22 08:54:58 Jaffa: there is a simulator in the sdk for harmattan? how do i run it? Jun 22 08:55:06 TheBootroo: The "Widgets Gallery" is. Trying "Calculator". I don't see why they wouldn't, they're just *sloooow* Jun 22 08:55:13 Jaffa: you lag because you use SOft GL Jun 22 08:55:18 BluesLee: There's the standard Qt Simulator and there's also a Harmattan qemu image Jun 22 08:55:36 TheBootroo: True - I might try forcing it to hard (it's currently set to "auto") Jun 22 08:55:40 Jaffa: i think use use your linux box without props drivers Jun 22 08:55:42 Stskeeps: you mean debuginfo packages for service framework (My shared object that i wanted to debug uses service fw) Jun 22 08:55:47 yes Jun 22 08:55:56 TheBootroo: Well, Unity & games work very well with the NVidia drivers Jun 22 08:56:03 Where I can join the MeeGo developer community and apply for N950? Cannot find a form on the website. Jun 22 08:56:19 meego.com Jun 22 08:56:39 timoph: Yes, I cannot find a form there. Could you be more specific? Jun 22 08:56:40 Tronic: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3597 Jun 22 08:57:04 i alreay asked for a n950 on developer.nokia.com but i see no visual feedback to know if the action was saved on website Jun 22 08:57:26 TheBootroo: Where did you find it on developer.nokia.com? Launchpad didn't have a programme last I saw Jun 22 08:57:41 Jaffa: do i need a special version of qemu? the link for qemu here does not work http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Platform_Guide/Developing_with_Harmattan_Platform_SDK/Using_QEMU Jun 22 08:57:43 Yes, I did read that thread also, and it links to https://meego.com/community/device-program/devices/nokia-n9-devkit which links back to the thread. Jun 22 08:58:06 It says that commercial developers should contact http://developer.nokia.com/ but doesn't say where open-source projects should apply. Jun 22 08:58:21 Tronic: it does Jun 22 08:58:22 Stskeeps: My /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo [1.2-oss-debuginfo] contains http://download.meego.com/snapshots/1.2.0.90.0.20110517.1/repos/oss/ia32/debug Jun 22 08:58:24 BluesLee: It's bundled. Jun 22 08:58:28 Tronic: the dev kit == n950 Jun 22 08:58:37 which is not a valid link Jun 22 08:58:53 can some one point me to the corect link Jun 22 08:59:13 timoph: Why are you only telling me things I already know? Jun 22 08:59:29 "Candidates must be community developers ready to start working on new or existing open source applications, to be published in apps.meego.com and the Nokia Store. Links to your current projects are relevant! Deadline for applications: end of Tuesday, June 28th. Jun 22 08:59:43 Tronic: you seems to have already found the right place but you are clearly not seeing something Jun 22 08:59:49 BluesLee: You a) update the Qt SDK using the "SDK Maintenance Tool"; b) add "Qt SDK > Experimental > Harmattan" packages; c) add Harmattan device configuration (qemu) under "Tools > Options..."; d) Go to "Projects > (+) > Harmattan"; e) make sure it's the Qt SDK Qt version, not the Platform SDK Qt version Jun 22 08:59:55 Where can I (a) become a community developer (haven't registered before) and (b) apply for a devkit Jun 22 09:00:24 Tronic: And at the top of that forum post there's a link to the meego.com Community Device Programme. Jun 22 09:00:26 Tronic: (a) register to meego.com (b) goto the dev kit page Jun 22 09:00:36 Tronic: There, it'll prompt you for your meego.com account and/or how to get one Jun 22 09:01:07 timoph is correct Jun 22 09:01:20 Jaffa: there http://www.developer.nokia.com/Developer_Programs/Launchpad.xhtml Jun 22 09:01:41 Jaffa: That's where I copy&pasted that text from. No instructions or form there. Maybe I need to have meego.com account, let's see... Jun 22 09:01:58 TheBootroo: That's for joining Nokia Developer Launchpad. I have that. There's no N9(50) programme under the Launchpad homepage when you get one. Jun 22 09:06:35 Okay, logged in and now it shows that apply for device button. Thanks :) Jun 22 09:07:10 Jaffa: hmm .. i updated qt sdk as you described ... qt sdk version vs platform sdk qt version ... i have the qt creator running but i dont see tools/options there? Jun 22 09:09:11 BluesLee: Tools > Options > Maemo > Maemo Device Configuration Jun 22 09:09:15 Jaffa: it seems to be configured in the settings for maemo: qemu Jun 22 09:10:24 Jaffa: i have to google several things Jun 22 09:10:46 qemu server? hmmm Jun 22 09:11:31 BluesLee: Leave as defaults. Jun 22 09:12:05 Jaffa: any way to extract harmattan binaries from harmattan target for sdk and make them run on maemo 5 (like facebook app and accuweather one, and the event timeline) Jun 22 09:12:09 ok... tis bedtime for me... gn Jun 22 09:12:38 i wonder does harmattan use the same ABI as fremantle ? Jun 22 09:12:49 hardfp vs softfp and so on Jun 22 09:13:41 harmattan is hardfp, like meego 1.2 armv7hl Jun 22 09:14:02 * alterego considers flash :) Jun 22 09:14:11 Actually, does harmattan even have flash? Jun 22 09:14:38 yes Jun 22 09:14:59 So it may be possible to use that plugin in MeeGo CE on the N9(5) Jun 22 09:15:05 ~(50) Jun 22 09:16:08 Crap, for some reason evo has made all the mails in my inbox dissappear .. Jun 22 09:16:14 toninikkanen: Harmattan doesn't have Flash according to the official docs. Jun 22 09:16:27 Jaffa: okay, i get deployment errors as qemu is running but to slow? Jun 22 09:16:27 Jaffa: the specs miss out on a few things it has. Jun 22 09:16:55 Oh, it's selected "Unread messages" Jun 22 09:17:06 alterego: Flash is pretty key. Jun 22 09:17:18 Yes, it is :) Jun 22 09:17:21 Jaffa: hmm, that's weird if true Jun 22 09:17:23 alterego: More specifically, it actually explicitly says nothing in the "Flash runtime" Jun 22 09:17:44 BluesLee: Yeah, I had to get qemu started and then try and launch my app then (from within the UI) Jun 22 09:18:09 It's a *lot* better with hardware GL, "auto-detect" obviously a bit crap Jun 22 09:18:11 http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/iloveagilebrowser.png - Agile Browser is so the best, unknown tool of meego Jun 22 09:19:02 Is that the one they demo'd in SF? Jun 22 09:19:06 yes Jun 22 09:19:09 That shows package deps? Jun 22 09:19:13 yes, for instance Jun 22 09:19:13 Cool Jun 22 09:21:48 Jaffa: same with hardware gl here ... Jun 22 09:22:55 are there are solutions with xephyr or whatever? Jun 22 09:23:30 Stskeeps: did you get my message last night in handset? Jun 22 09:23:31 xephyr doesn't have GLX context support Jun 22 09:23:40 Stskeeps: the meego-terminal is a good cross-platform candidate :P Jun 22 09:24:01 Jaffa: something happens :-) Jun 22 09:24:26 alterego: no Jun 22 09:26:06 Stskeeps: wow, only a matter of hours:-) do i need to press some keys? i see a black landscape screen with kernel version ... something happens ... hehe Jun 22 09:29:27 BluesLee: None of Calculator, Clock, Notes, ... do anything for me. However, Widget Gallery starts and I can swipe to the multitasking view Jun 22 09:32:04 Jaffa: mentioned apps dont start ... Jun 22 09:33:11 BluesLee, Jaffa : are they fake apps ? Jun 22 09:33:48 TheBootroo: Dunno. Only one which launches so far is Widget Gallery. Lack of a console (come back Scratchbox, all is forgiven!) makes diagnosing what's going on a bit tricky Jun 22 09:34:35 event timeline functionnal at least ? Jun 22 09:34:48 or is there only menu + widget gallery Jun 22 09:35:40 TheBootroo: It's present. I haven't tried invoking dbus to put something on it yet Jun 22 09:36:06 Oooh, something else started. One of the QML examples with a green icon Jun 22 09:36:19 snice accounts are functional, just try configure your facebook or twitter in it Jun 22 09:39:50 morning Jun 22 09:41:54 Jaffa: hehe ... its not big fun with the emulator so far Jun 22 09:42:35 i | 1.2-oss | servicefw | 1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.35 | i586 Jun 22 09:42:45 i want a corresponding debug package Jun 22 09:42:48 achipa: Do you know what's supposed to work in the Harmattan qemu Qt SDK emulator? Most of the apps don't start (Widget Gallery and one of the QML demos do), so I dunno if my app not starting is a config error in Qt Creator, a code error or an issue in the emulator Jun 22 09:42:52 from where i can get it? Jun 22 09:42:57 Jaffa: check the drive app Jun 22 09:46:43 do you think the few apps i made here are enough to get a N95à ? http://modern-os.projects.servhome.org/mobileApps/ Jun 22 09:47:45 TheBootroo: That's not for us to know. Ask and ye may receive Jun 22 09:47:56 TheBootroo: I'd give you one just for showing a cool album in DiscoTek Jun 22 09:48:37 Jaffa: that's true, it's a very good album Jun 22 09:48:39 ;-) Jun 22 09:52:25 Reminder: http://www.meetup.com/MeeGoExperts/ Jun 22 09:52:45 blocked by my proxy Jun 22 09:52:54 Forbidden By Proxy You don't have permission to access http://www.meetup.com/MeeGoExperts/ on this server. Forbidden by category "ADVANCED_URL_ads". Jun 22 09:53:20 Wow. I didn't realise it was an Advanced URL Jun 22 09:53:31 Thought it was Standard … Lol Jun 22 09:53:31 TheBootroo: Your work URL policy is shit Jun 22 09:53:48 Jaffa: you can't even imagine at which point Jun 22 09:53:58 Jaffa: the link a posted, i can't even visit it Jun 22 09:54:06 hey everyone Jun 22 09:54:15 So whos coming tomorrow ? Drinks + Food + MeeGo Chat …. What more could you ask for ??? Jun 22 09:54:16 category 'phishing' lol Jun 22 09:54:38 MeeGoExperts: N950 for everybody ? Jun 22 09:55:03 Heh Jun 22 09:55:07 MeeGoExperts: we're having food + drinks + sauna + meego chatter today :) Jun 22 09:55:29 timoph: yeah, rub it in :P Jun 22 09:55:36 And you've got N9's and N950's Jun 22 09:55:49 alterego: +110 Jun 22 09:55:54 BUT …. Yes, Free N950 for EVERYONE …… (as long as I can get them) Jun 22 09:56:04 alterego: :D Jun 22 09:56:07 * alterego chuckles Jun 22 09:56:19 (as long as I can get them) ;) Jun 22 09:56:34 +1 FREE Hooker …. Second one you need to pay for !!!!!\ Jun 22 09:56:52 I don't think it's fair bringing your mom into this Jun 22 09:56:57 ooooo! Jun 22 09:57:02 Can anybody recommend resources about development for N9 for man a little bit similar with Qt Jun 22 09:57:20 I'm SURE you didn't say that to me ? Jun 22 09:57:22 goshakkk: what? Jun 22 09:57:33 goshakkk: use Qt Jun 22 09:57:48 "What you say about my momma!?!" Jun 22 09:57:56 "Momma said knock you out!!" Jun 22 09:58:03 * alterego does a little dance. Jun 22 09:58:05 alterego: I'm just a beginner in Qt. Jun 22 09:58:17 goshakkk: then read the tutorials, examples, best thing is to learn by doing Jun 22 09:58:23 So just get in there! Jun 22 09:58:36 alterego: That's what *your* mum said Jun 22 09:58:40 what about the n9 rootfs? how are the dimensions, fs of the n9? Jun 22 09:58:44 Jaffa: XD Jun 22 09:58:59 BluesLee: yes i asked too but no1 answred Jun 22 09:59:03 alterego: Can ya recommend tutorials? Jun 22 09:59:48 N9 rootfs is 512M Jun 22 10:00:02 With a presumably similar setup to the N900 with eMMC and "optification" Jun 22 10:00:31 I don't see why that matters though .. Jun 22 10:00:35 alterego: Btw why the initial app created in Qt Creator doesn't work in both vertical and horizontal orientations? How can I change this behaviour? Jun 22 10:00:38 You'll have more than enough space to install applications. Jun 22 10:00:44 alterego: why did they do that again Jun 22 10:00:54 why not a single partition for all OS Jun 22 10:00:57 goshakkk: read tutorials, I'm not here to teach you and without an SDK or device I can't anyway :P Jun 22 10:01:19 TheBootroo: because if the handset fails, it's safer to just reflash the rootfs rather than loose all of your data, it's a feature really. Jun 22 10:01:39 But again, don't worry about it, why does it matter? Jun 22 10:01:42 alterego: just asking:-) Jun 22 10:02:01 but 512 Mo is really too few with a 64GB device, there could be at least 8gb for System, and the rest for DOcs Jun 22 10:02:15 TheBootroo: no, and stop worrying about it. Jun 22 10:02:32 who will get N950? Jun 22 10:02:32 alterego: i worry because it's reallt bad Jun 22 10:02:34 and when? Jun 22 10:02:37 The 512M is NAND, it's much quicker than eMMC (which is the 16G or 64G) Jun 22 10:02:41 It isn't bad Jun 22 10:03:06 So the 512M has the core operating system and the 16/64G is partitioned into application storage and user data. Jun 22 10:03:13 Now stop fucking worrying, IT DOESN'T MATTER Jun 22 10:03:48 But if you'd prefer, Nokia could make a device that costs thousands because _you_ want a 64G NAND pop on your SoC .. Jun 22 10:03:55 alterego: developpers will still to do tricky changes to store data to the right path to not cause a rootfs overflo Jun 22 10:04:07 TheBootroo: no, it's taken care of Jun 22 10:04:13 * RST38h moos approvingly: yes, we definitely want a 64GB NAND POP Jun 22 10:04:14 _STOP WORRYING IT DOESN'T MATTER_ Jun 22 10:04:23 RST38h: +1000 Jun 22 10:04:24 oi, caps Jun 22 10:04:24 :P Jun 22 10:04:33 alterego: actually, /ignore works on him Jun 22 10:04:34 alterego: actually, rootfs is on emmc Jun 22 10:04:37 TheBootroo: what path are you going to to store data in? Jun 22 10:04:42 No need to scream Jun 22 10:04:44 Stskeeps: really? Jun 22 10:04:47 Heh Jun 22 10:05:02 #meego the new tmo :P Jun 22 10:05:02 alterego: Error: "meego" is not a valid command. Jun 22 10:05:19 Stskeeps: is NAND being used then? Jun 22 10:05:27 alterego: why are you that pedantic Jun 22 10:05:35 alterego: mtdswap probably Jun 22 10:05:48 TheBootroo: I'm not pedantic, I know how the systems are supposed to work, you're just not listening. Jun 22 10:05:54 alterego: i just asked, half knowing the answer but hoping a change Jun 22 10:05:59 TheBootroo: the only place you _should_ be storing data is in /home/user Jun 22 10:06:09 TheBootroo: that is on eMMC, you have more than enough room Jun 22 10:06:24 alterego: i was speaking about program data, not user data Jun 22 10:06:35 TheBootroo: what program data? The executables? Images? Jun 22 10:06:46 BluesLee: Speed of qemu has meant I've had to increase "connection timeout" in Tools > Options... > Projects Jun 22 10:06:50 TheBootroo: when you package your application it gets installed on the eMMC, that data is there, there is plenty of room. Jun 22 10:06:50 i know how a system works too, i'm developer and linux user since 8 years Jun 22 10:06:51 BluesLee: Speed of qemu has meant I've had to increase "connection timeout" in Tools > Options... > Maemo Jun 22 10:06:55 But now my app has started :-) Jun 22 10:07:09 alterego: that's what i wanted to know Jun 22 10:07:25 m'hmm Jun 22 10:07:42 i have some programs here with many ressources (big images, sounds..) Jun 22 10:07:51 think about games too Jun 22 10:07:58 I don't need to think about it Jun 22 10:08:03 Because I know it doesn't matter :P Jun 22 10:08:16 nothing else matters Jun 22 10:27:55 I am getting errors when running image-creator Jun 22 10:27:57 sudo mic-image-creator -c handset-ia32-qemu.ks -f raw -k mycache --run-mode=1 --release latest --mainrepo oss Jun 22 10:28:04 http://pastebin.com/erEscVQJ Jun 22 10:28:13 has anyone encounterd such an issue Jun 22 10:31:07 andre__, Ping? Jun 22 10:31:39 * slaine waves to dneary Jun 22 10:31:49 Hi slaine Jun 22 10:32:09 slaine, Do you know where the sources for the "package management" app(s) are? Jun 22 10:33:08 dneary: rpm, zypper, PackageKit ? Jun 22 10:33:15 dneary: you mean the one in the community edition? Jun 22 10:33:46 timoph, Yes, I suppose? Jun 22 10:33:52 wait-a-sec Jun 22 10:34:13 slaine, See http://bugs.meego.com/11691 Jun 22 10:34:30 https://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager Jun 22 10:34:44 So whichever piece of software is responsible for the error message "Dependency resolution failed: A package could not Jun 22 10:34:44 be found that allows the action to complete. More information is available in Jun 22 10:34:44 the detailed report." Jun 22 10:34:51 timoph, Thanks Jun 22 10:34:53 np Jun 22 10:35:16 * alterego wonders when the N9 availability will actually show up in the UK .. Jun 22 10:35:17 I think that's PackageKit Jun 22 10:35:53 An abstraction over yum/zypper/apt Jun 22 10:36:26 dneary: if you have questions about it ping kyranto in -arm or -qa Jun 22 10:36:55 slaine, It's a terrible message Jun 22 10:37:04 It should be: Jun 22 10:37:12 dneary: I agree Jun 22 10:37:41 Man, I should get some breakfast, it's 11:35 and I've been up since 6 Jun 22 10:38:00 "Dependency resolution failed for package '%s'. Please remove this package from your update list and try again." Jun 22 10:38:04 Or whatever Jun 22 10:39:18 timoph, Silly question: are there instructions somewheer for how to get the sources? Jun 22 10:39:49 timoph, "git clone https://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager" didn't work Jun 22 10:40:21 dneary: try git://gitorious.org/meego-developer-edition-for-n900/mg-package-manager.git Jun 22 10:40:22 dneary: I don't think that's the package manager you're looking for Jun 22 10:40:29 it's not Jun 22 10:40:36 dneary: what UX?/device Jun 22 10:40:40 that's only included in the community edition Jun 22 10:40:48 Stskeeps, Lenovo Jun 22 10:40:51 Netbook Jun 22 10:41:01 So prolly not that :) Jun 22 10:41:03 ah, must be packagekit then Jun 22 10:41:10 download.meego.com is down today or permanently out of order?? Jun 22 10:42:09 dneary: I'd do an rpm query to see what package kit packages where installed, then have zypper download the source rpm Jun 22 10:42:29 then try and hunt down the string Jun 22 10:42:38 Thanks Jun 22 10:42:47 patch would have to go upstream then Jun 22 10:43:23 The BBC news article on the N9 isn't exactly positive. Jun 22 10:43:54 You might also be able to do a strings command to find the file the owns the text and narrow down the package that owns it and therefore what source rpm you need Jun 22 10:43:55 slaine, Packagekit-gnome Jun 22 10:44:04 My desire to fix the problem just decreased :( Jun 22 10:44:08 alterego, url plz? Jun 22 10:44:09 lol Jun 22 10:44:22 yes, we can imagine how that would go Jun 22 10:44:38 alterego, Really? You found it not positive? Jun 22 10:44:40 alterego, nvrmind got it. Jun 22 10:44:43 I wouldn't put it that way Jun 22 10:45:05 dneary: well, it wasn't positive :) Jun 22 10:45:23 It leaned to the "dead end platform" Jun 22 10:45:35 "Why is nokia doing this for such a niche segment" . Jun 22 10:45:37 Blah Jun 22 10:45:41 alterego, well they actually said nothing about the phone. At all. Jun 22 10:45:51 mece: indeed, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13863741 Jun 22 10:45:53 alterego, I would have said "negative" myself Jun 22 10:45:59 "Nokia has unveiled a smartphone based around a technology that it has already started to sideline." Jun 22 10:46:01 Heh Jun 22 10:46:03 that's the opening sentence Jun 22 10:46:07 "not positive" implies neutral somehow Jun 22 10:46:25 implies the opposite to positive to me Jun 22 10:46:40 Well, they were trying to be neutral, but as the whole story was based around "nokia has unvieled a smartphone based around a technology that is has already started to sideline." Jun 22 10:46:49 It's sort of hard to be neutral from _our_ perspective ;) Jun 22 10:47:17 I guess we don't really know what Nokia will do with MeeGo Jun 22 10:47:29 Though I've heard they've setup a permanent meego lab in Tampere Jun 22 10:48:20 This is something that only time will tell though :/ Jun 22 10:48:22 i'm sorry, but can I send some applications for device program? with different apps Jun 22 10:48:24 We can only hope that they may continue with a few projects that they may have had in the fire already, especially if the N9 is well received. If it actually sells well, we can hope for more projects Jun 22 10:48:44 But it's all up in the air Jun 22 10:48:56 bbc article not very positive Jun 22 10:49:09 I've opened it in a tab, I'll read it later Jun 22 10:49:13 I think in some ways, it needs to be played down, so that other manufacturers feel more inclined to come on board MeeGo Jun 22 10:49:15 that obviously means negative. I think I need to pass this around: http://www.albertoandreu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Diapositiva11.jpg Jun 22 10:49:22 right now, I've to figure out why libmpeg2 on vlc 1.1.x doesn't work too well :( Jun 22 10:49:38 But it is our only "MeeGo" handset. Jun 22 10:50:08 And the device kind of seems like they've cut a few corners to stay in some budget of some kind. Jun 22 10:50:17 I'll be quite suprised if it sells for more than the N8 Jun 22 10:50:22 Even disappointed. Jun 22 10:51:30 alterego: my guess is that they had to scramble with some compromised version of the N9 to get it out when the N950 was rejected late last year. Jun 22 10:51:56 Yeah, maybe Jun 22 10:53:47 rejected by elop? Jun 22 10:54:39 Damion_: No, carriers Jun 22 10:54:57 I think that's when they had crisis meetings and conjured up WP7 devices Jun 22 10:55:13 *noob question* Installed MeeGo 1.2 on Ideapad, where can I get software for it? Garage doesn't work and software sources list is empty. Jun 22 10:55:22 That may explain why the N9 doesn't look like it's in the UK and USA yet ^.^ Jun 22 10:57:08 Aranel: shouldn't be empty at all, there's plenty of software in the default repos Jun 22 10:58:05 slaine: default repos :| I don't have them. Where can I get a list of them? Jun 22 10:58:37 Aranel: they are there by default Jun 22 10:58:55 you need to be online for them to work though, I assume your netbook is online Jun 22 10:59:00 it's online Jun 22 11:01:41 slaine: I touch on Manage Apps, select a category, and It shows up empty (Filter: Only Available) Jun 22 11:02:32 strange alright Jun 22 11:02:56 slaine: btw what's the rpm equivalent of "apt-get update"? Jun 22 11:03:13 I want to try terminal way. Jun 22 11:03:36 sudo zypper dist-upgrade Jun 22 11:03:47 Google for the zypper cheat sheet, I find it helpful Jun 22 11:03:57 as I mostly use yum Jun 22 11:07:52 is there somewhere I can chat about the n950 with somebody who has one? I've done a /list -YES and no channel mas "950" in it's topic/name Jun 22 11:08:35 slaine: Building repository "1.2.0-non-oss" Download (curl) error for "http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/ia32/packages/repodata/repomd.xml": Error code: Connection failed Error message: Couldn't resolve host 'repo.meego.com' Jun 22 11:09:28 Aranel: actually, somebody mentioned earlier that download.meego.com was out of service, it looks like they're having some trouble Jun 22 11:10:02 Hmm, I just tried the url and it works for me Jun 22 11:10:35 slaine: works for me on my Ubuntu box too, weird. :| Jun 22 11:11:01 looks like your meego box isn't online Jun 22 11:11:03 after all Jun 22 11:14:58 slaine: I'm pretty sure It's online, I'm browsing web using chrome (and I can open that link too), for some reason zypper can't connect but chrome does. Jun 22 11:15:19 so can anybody tell me can I send 2-3 applications for n950? Jun 22 11:16:25 goshakk: You can send as many as you want Jun 22 11:16:26 you /whois texrat Jun 22 11:17:02 morning Jun 22 11:19:51 moorning lardman Jun 22 11:20:02 hi RST38h Jun 22 11:20:56 whats this n950? Jun 22 11:21:36 goshakkk: you can do but isn't that a bit greedy? Jun 22 11:22:03 iirc there's a section where you can say what else you plan to do with the devicev Jun 22 11:22:06 alterego: for example if I have many ideas for apps, what should I do? Jun 22 11:22:17 apart from your main project proposal Jun 22 11:22:39 goshakkk: no. just one. read quim's post on the forum Jun 22 11:22:58 timoph: can you give a link please Jun 22 11:23:01 goshakkk: why do you need multiple devices? Jun 22 11:23:05 wait-a-sec Jun 22 11:23:42 alterego: no. I need one device. I only need to enlarge my chance of getting N9 Devkit Jun 22 11:24:04 Then list your ideas in the text field. Jun 22 11:24:24 goshakkk: will they be free open source apps? Jun 22 11:24:29 goshakkk: Jaffa quotes Quim at the top of this page: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=2901&page=7 Jun 22 11:24:33 for reference Jun 22 11:24:38 alterego: 'cuz I think MeeGo is very perspective platform. Even better that Android, WP7 and Symbian Jun 22 11:24:51 alterego: probably yes Jun 22 11:25:16 Well, if they're not you should apply for a devkit through nokia developer. Jun 22 11:26:00 Is the N9/N950 really MeeGo? Jun 22 11:26:02 As arjan commented previously, the Nokia devices are not MeeGo devices Jun 22 11:26:09 ah, yes Jun 22 11:26:30 The the closest thing we have to a meego handset Jun 22 11:26:36 alterego: but without a device I can't make them. That's bad. Jun 22 11:26:37 They're .. Jun 22 11:26:38 Maybe only one will be closed-source. I sent appliiation for joining launchpad Jun 22 11:27:05 alterego: but it can't be applyed yet Jun 22 11:27:13 goshakkk: well, apply there, the meego n950s are for community developers. Jun 22 11:27:15 wasn't* Jun 22 11:27:41 And taking our limited devices isn't very nice :P Jun 22 11:27:41 They use Harmattan, which is basically what Maemo 6 would have been, a Debian-based distribution with apt and friends, but with the MeeGo API stack on top Jun 22 11:27:44 vvaltone: meego = 50% maemo 50%moblin and harmattan = 50 % maemo 50% meego ;-) Jun 22 11:27:53 Especially if you plan on charging us for it. Jun 22 11:28:03 juliank: yes, we know. Jun 22 11:28:08 alterego: I tried. When there will be results? Jun 22 11:28:10 It's meego on debian :P Jun 22 11:28:18 goshakkk: be patient. Jun 22 11:28:26 goshakkk: i hope you don't start dev just today only to get a free N950 ? Jun 22 11:29:22 The 250 devices meego.com are distributing are loan devices for those of us that contribute to meego, if you're not a contributer your chances are quite slim of obtaining one. Jun 22 11:29:51 alterego: And it ships a python-apt release from last year which I do not support anymore. I'd be much happier if it would be updated to version 0.7.100.1 Jun 22 11:30:10 TheBootroo: um, my Harmattan emulator works ver-very slow so the only way to develop app is having MeeGo device. I really wanna develop for MeeGo... It impressed me more that Android, WP7. Only iOS is better Jun 22 11:30:13 meh, who needs python :P Jun 22 11:30:40 alterego: true. and even among the active contributors it's going to be tough to get one since there's only 250 of those Jun 22 11:31:17 goshakkk: if you're doing this commercially, which it sounds like you plan to, then wait for nokia developer and please don't take our limited devices away from the community. Jun 22 11:31:17 alterego: I'm. but... Harmattan really inpressed me. I need it asap to start dev for MeeGo....... And make awesome apps the easy way Jun 22 11:31:28 We all need it ASAP Jun 22 11:31:33 lol Jun 22 11:31:39 In the same way we need next years model now. Jun 22 11:31:53 Stop, take some deep breathes and be patient. Jun 22 11:32:00 goshakkk: you won't get a device from meego.com program for commercial development Jun 22 11:32:13 alterego: ok... Jun 22 11:32:16 Is there any info about how the device will sync? Jun 22 11:32:19 Your life doesn't depend on it :P Jun 22 11:32:38 hope i'll get mine in time to allow coding during holidays (mid august) Jun 22 11:32:43 alterego timoph : I am willing to develop open source apps, most of all Jun 22 11:33:28 and learn platform at all Jun 22 11:33:39 goshakkk: we have 250 devices for community developers, having people randomly promising that they might develop a few free open soure apps doesn't help us. Jun 22 11:34:13 It just makes the decision of who to give devices to harder for the commitee. Jun 22 11:34:22 alterego: for my part i've made many apps for maemo 5 in qt and i will rewrite them using MTF, and create new ones Jun 22 11:34:27 alterego: how long is the loan for? and what happens to the devices when they are given back? Jun 22 11:34:35 alterego: I want one, but I don't have any special cool thing planned. Does writing a few applications and help the MeeGo community project sound like a good reason? Jun 22 11:34:43 alterego: for example I am planning to develop client for Russian social network called VK, the facebook clone, which is very popular in there. and some productivity apps Jun 22 11:34:48 TheBootroo: then you're the kind of person that should apply ;) Jun 22 11:35:24 alterego: i can write a "hello world" app ;-) Jun 22 11:35:29 The devices are loaned until N9 release, then you get a choice of trading it for an N9 or keeping it. Jun 22 11:35:29 hehe Jun 22 11:35:34 alterego: already done ;-) Jun 22 11:35:44 TheBootroo: good job :) Jun 22 11:36:05 alterego: so when N9 releases I can exchange N950 for n9, right? Jun 22 11:36:05 alterego: nice, I doubt you will get many trade-ins though :) Jun 22 11:36:38 Especially since you can't replace the battery on the n9. Jun 22 11:36:39 alterego: still have to wait, hope it will take less than 1 month Jun 22 11:36:46 goshakkk: no Jun 22 11:36:50 goshakkk: you can pay for it Jun 22 11:37:04 exchanging for which price? Jun 22 11:37:11 alterego: but I can save N950 for free, right? Jun 22 11:37:15 TheBootroo: sounds like they're pushing very hard, that's why the deadline is Monday :) Jun 22 11:37:21 juliank: It *is* a "MeeGo device", it's OS is officially listed as "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan". See, it says MeeGo. It's not MeeGo *compliant*, but it's got use of the MeeGo trademark to describe its OS :-p Jun 22 11:37:28 juliank: If we're being pedantic Jun 22 11:37:38 BluesLee: kind like 7 Jun 22 11:37:47 BluesLee: kind like 40% cost down Jun 22 11:37:49 goshakkk: about applying it from two places see -> http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=22847&postcount=28 Jun 22 11:37:52 Jaffa: Yeah, somehow. Jun 22 11:38:02 TheBootroo: i thought of wp7;-) Jun 22 11:38:02 mmm, pedanticism ;) Jun 22 11:39:02 TheBootroo: the device is not available in germany so far, no one knows the real prices, so i dont see the big advantage to jump on the train Jun 22 11:39:30 timoph: I sent my application to Launchpad for firts because I didn't know about MeeGo device program Jun 22 11:39:31 BluesLee: N9 is not available in France neither Jun 22 11:40:11 It has just been presented, I don't expect it to be available in the next months Jun 22 11:40:19 TheBootroo: in the end i may have to pay for taxes and 3 months after that the n9 is available in my country for the same price Jun 22 11:41:30 Jaffa: don't know, a bit swamped with SDK setup buzz, will get back to you on that Jun 22 11:41:49 the general idea to generate apps via a loan program for community members is not bad Jun 22 11:42:32 alterego: but I can save N950 for free, right? Jun 22 11:43:00 we will see how the commercial devs will treat n9/meego Jun 22 11:43:13 goshakkk: STFU you freaking parasite Jun 22 11:43:47 TheBootroo: WTF?! Jun 22 11:43:48 achipa: It's OK - I've got the SDK launching Attitude, so it's more a question of interest. Jun 22 11:43:58 achipa: I'll do step-by-step instructions on how I got it up & running Jun 22 11:44:03 TheBootroo: Turn it down a bit please. I'm warning you. Jun 22 11:45:01 hello Jun 22 11:45:28 Jaffa: don't forget it's beta, has some stuff stripped (partners, etc, etc) so not entirely sure what should or shouldn't work out of the box Jun 22 11:45:29 does anyone know if there will be more mobile manufacturers who will use MeeGo on handsets? Jun 22 11:45:43 (from the builtin stuff) Jun 22 11:45:55 has any of the companies announced anything yet? Jun 22 11:46:00 achipa: Well, "Calculator" and "Clock" don't do anything. Jun 22 11:46:01 katsrc: after the N9 demo, I'm pretty sure. Jun 22 11:46:05 Installed MeeGo 1.2 on Ideapad but I can't get new software :| zypper cant resolve repo.meego.com, but same url works on chrome. How/Where can I get software? Jun 22 11:46:23 achipa: nice Jun 22 11:48:35 achipa, does it have.. umm.. skype, for example? Jun 22 11:48:45 mece: the qemu image ? I doubt it Jun 22 11:49:01 goshakkk: i jsut told you that because was the third time you ask if you can keep the phone after the N9 come out : we are not there ATM, start developing with qt, and wait for developer device comitee answer and stop annoying us with commercial aspects of a free operation concerning free software.... Jun 22 11:49:11 that's usually one of the first things that go. then twitter, facebook, and friends Jun 22 11:49:14 achipa, heh oh.. I didn't read enough of the discussion apparently :) I meant the n950 :) Jun 22 11:49:24 X-Fade: don't take it bad, i just talk with some noob here ;-) Jun 22 11:49:36 mece: of course. It has more account plugins than the N900 Jun 22 11:49:39 TheBootroo: You sound like that too. Jun 22 11:49:41 about 2x as much Jun 22 11:49:52 achipa, yep yep :) Jun 22 11:50:09 X-Fade: after all my language was not very delicate, i admit Jun 22 11:50:10 TheBootroo: ... Jun 22 11:50:12 who is noob? Jun 22 11:50:14 14 year-old programmer with great knowledge of Ruby? Jun 22 11:50:21 X-Fade: but i'm far from a noo you know Jun 22 11:50:24 we'll need an irc one, though... not mainstream enough to be in a 'real' firmware Jun 22 11:51:07 Jaffa: so the SDK is just like an empty shell right ? at least can it run MTF apps flawlessly ? Jun 22 11:51:40 achipa, xchat is on the list of requested apps... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=74154 Jun 22 11:52:29 mece: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=xchat&project=home%3Atimoph Jun 22 11:53:13 timoph, so will that be for harmattan too? Jun 22 11:53:24 mece: dunno Jun 22 11:55:30 TheBootroo: The SDK is not an empty shell - it has lots of icons, some of which work. It can run my QML application. Jun 22 11:55:48 goshakkk: no, i have nothing against 14 years old people (i started dev at 9), neither Ruby (that i don't pratice), it's more about a guy that 'wanna do that but don't know how to, help plz kthx' or that want something without preocupating of the goals and constraints of an open source project and talks like all was about money.... Jun 22 11:56:14 Jaffa: does accounts and sharing framework work ? Jun 22 11:56:34 My /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo contains baseurl=http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/source/ Jun 22 11:56:43 but it is not there now Jun 22 11:56:45 Jaffa: because first apps i'll do may be a dropbox integration Jun 22 11:56:46 TheBootroo: I started dev at 9 too. my first lang was probably PHP. Jun 22 11:56:52 to where it got moved Jun 22 11:57:05 Hah, is PHP a language? Jun 22 11:57:12 how can i sync to its present Location Jun 22 11:57:23 alterego: it should be Jun 22 11:58:40 pfft Jun 22 11:58:40 so, make a proposal stating you want to maintain the php qt bindings ;) Jun 22 11:58:42 Jaffa: does Google sync work (i mean, real mail push without NOkia messaging which is lame, and calendar sync ) better than on maemo ? Jun 22 11:58:47 Hahah Jun 22 11:58:50 TheBootroo: consider that the sdk n9 simulator is very slow Jun 22 11:58:53 alterego: yes ;) but now I understand how stupid that lang is... Ruby is the best ;) Jun 22 11:58:55 Btw, why there is the way to dev for N9 with Python, but there is not any way to dev with Ruby? Jun 22 11:59:13 Ruby is good for what ruby does good, just like any app. Jun 22 11:59:24 javispedro: never get the point about php bindings : you can dev qt UX using php ? WTF... Jun 22 11:59:32 goshakkk: because someone stopped maintaining the ruby maemo port .. Jun 22 11:59:36 *coughs* Jun 22 11:59:48 BluesLee: its not about slowness but about buginess i wanna know Jun 22 11:59:49 you know, using the best language for the tool.. Jun 22 12:00:03 the other day I dreamt of verilog QT bindings Jun 22 12:00:16 its not actually unreasonable if you think about it Jun 22 12:00:18 alterego: it's very bad Jun 22 12:00:19 warning: /var/cache/zypp/packages/1.2-oss-debuginfo/qt-mobility-debuginfo-1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.31.i586.rpm: Header V3 RSA/SHA1 Signature, key ID 44e4155a: NOKEY Jun 22 12:00:21 I wouldn't use either for graphical apps if you value user experience :P Jun 22 12:00:27 always @(click button1) Jun 22 12:00:32 goshakkk: what is bad? Jun 22 12:00:40 #1 $do(animation) Jun 22 12:00:40 javispedro: Error: "1" is not a valid command. Jun 22 12:00:44 how to solve this /var/cache/zypp/packages/1.2-oss-debuginfo/qt-mobility-debuginfo-1.2.0~beta0+git2726-9.31.i586.rpm Public key is unavailable Jun 22 12:00:48 goshakkk: if you want to develop for meego, learn Qt/C++ Jun 22 12:00:58 alterego 02:57:24 PM Jun 22 12:01:00 goshakkk: because someone stopped maintaining the ruby maemo port .. Jun 22 12:01:34 alterego: i know C++ a bit. and used Qt many moons ago. Jun 22 12:01:36 Yes, it was me. Jun 22 12:01:51 I used to do a ruby for maemo, but lost interest Jun 22 12:02:35 I basically lost interest when the N900 came out and decided I wanted to write apps instead of wasting time maintaining ruby .. Jun 22 12:02:36 alterego: but I can learn C++ well, while developing an app for perspective platform ;) Jun 22 12:02:37 at basis Qt = C++ Jun 22 12:02:57 TheBootroo: but Qt's QML is not Jun 22 12:03:24 goshakkk: IMHO QML is not adapted to development, only to skin UX Jun 22 12:03:51 i find QML pointless as independent language Jun 22 12:04:07 TheBootroo: i know Jun 22 12:04:13 * alterego wonders off. Jun 22 12:04:15 i would more see it like a newer version of Qss, a dynamical style sheeting language for QWidget or MTF Jun 22 12:04:40 guys, is there some reference tables for iOS developers to help with migrating to MeeGo? Jun 22 12:04:55 * TheBootroo warns alterego about nostalgia Jun 22 12:05:21 goshakkk: intel was talking about this months ago but didn't yet saw the day ligh Jun 22 12:06:26 TheBootroo: it's bad... For me dev for iOS was something native. But dev for MeeGo doesn't seem like it. Jun 22 12:06:39 TheBootroo: yet Jun 22 12:06:54 QML has no relation to MTF or QWidget Jun 22 12:07:14 goshakkk: start learning, there are many resources over the web for Qt4 and MeeGoTouchFramework Jun 22 12:07:21 alterego: i know Jun 22 12:08:03 when I manually edit the /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo file to add a new repo ;Do i need to do some other steps apart from zypper refresh Jun 22 12:08:05 alterego: i said that i would prefer QML as styling language for them instead of a full programming languaue because the syntax is not done for that Jun 22 12:08:24 I am getting some error related to Public key Jun 22 12:08:43 can some one please point whats wrong? Jun 22 12:09:29 alterego: like on a QPushButton, put a style kinda "shadow: 3px black; max-width: parent.width - 20px;" Jun 22 12:10:04 QWidget already handles style sheets like that. Jun 22 12:11:15 alterego: nope Jun 22 12:11:38 not such advanced properties Jun 22 12:11:41 only a subset of css 2 and css3 Jun 22 12:12:01 you can't use vars or objects Jun 22 12:12:33 you can't even set "DEFAULT_BLUE: #4500C0;" and then use "border: 1px solid DEFAULT_BLUE" Jun 22 12:12:46 but that what i would like Jun 22 12:13:27 but instead, qt dev are putting all their strenght into QML but i'll not use it : i don't make javascript/json app, i do C++ Jun 22 12:16:33 The idea of QML is to write thin UXs ontop of C++ Jun 22 12:16:42 Jaffa: did you found how to force hard GL in SDK ? Jun 22 12:16:53 alterego: QLM syntax is not thin Jun 22 12:17:29 QML make too indented and too property-based syntax Jun 22 12:18:24 That's the point, and it's great Jun 22 12:18:44 It's up to you how much logic you put into javascript, or little. Jun 22 12:19:17 QML as a declarative interface design language is brilliant. and If you don't want to use it, then use the designer instead .. Jun 22 12:19:34 its not really javascript, there is almost no proggramming, only declaration, i call it litteraly JSON Jun 22 12:20:06 i prefer my_button->setSize(25, 45); than my_button { width: 25; height: 45; }; its more evident : if you have too many things about my-button, you don't seen the name of the class and you get many more subdeclarations, keeping the code unreadable Jun 22 12:20:23 That makes no sense. Jun 22 12:20:40 alterego: QML should be used in QtDesigner classic to skin widgets in place of old Qss Jun 22 12:21:09 TheBootroo: Tools > Options... > Maemo > qemu setup Jun 22 12:21:56 ...those are two completely different use cases, TheBootroo Jun 22 12:21:58 alterego: plus : QML is interpreted language, much slower than classic designer which is turned to plain C++ by the moc Jun 22 12:22:32 leinir: maybe butn in this case, i don't agree people who want to do big programs entirely in QML, that makes no sense Jun 22 12:22:38 TheBootroo, use case dependent. sometimes the intrinsics and animation stuff inside qml will be as fast as what you could do the same manually Jun 22 12:22:47 What you did in the first one would be my_button.height = 45; my_button.width = 25; Jun 22 12:23:05 but for data processing requirements and real processing, c++ is still best Jun 22 12:23:19 my_button { width: 25; height: 45; } would be declating a new, unnamed object of type my_button Jun 22 12:23:39 leinir: no in C++ we dont set property directely, we use proper functions, setters Jun 22 12:24:06 we lazier coders will use properties :P Jun 22 12:24:17 TheBootroo: i'm not saying your c++ was invalid, i'm saying your QML was not doing the same thing :P Jun 22 12:24:32 morning leinir and Jaffa \o Jun 22 12:24:35 and tom Jun 22 12:24:43 lcuk: that's ugly and what i love about Qt coding is that its proper and logical Jun 22 12:25:13 leinir: maybe. i don't use QML Jun 22 12:25:35 wow :P first time I have heard c++ described as proper and logical Jun 22 12:25:38 lcuk: o/ Jun 22 12:25:46 * lcuk thought the one true language was c Jun 22 12:25:52 Perl Jun 22 12:25:54 The QML code would be equivalent to this C++ code: { my_button* lala = new my_button(someparentobject); my_button->setSize(25, 45); } (very important with the outer curly braces, because you're declaring it in a way so it exists but you can't reference it by name later on) Jun 22 12:25:56 heh Jun 22 12:25:58 leinir: but last time i tried to modifiy a small app un QML, i was surprisedof the complexity of the code, with all these declaration nested Jun 22 12:26:17 lcuk: not plain C++, i talk about Qt Classes Jun 22 12:26:29 TheBootroo, you have same nesting in C++ OO class trees Jun 22 12:26:56 c++ is fun until you start overloading operators Jun 22 12:27:21 then when you add things up and find somebody did a switcharoo on the + operator ;) Jun 22 12:27:22 lcuk: c++ is all fun and games until someone redefines new ;) Jun 22 12:27:32 heh Jun 22 12:27:55 Heh Jun 22 12:28:15 (yes, i'm aware that it has its uses) Jun 22 12:28:33 lcuk: QML mix the hierarchical widgets nesting (rectangle in rectangle in rectangle) and the functional nesting (in a given object i do something in this state, in that one ... etc) Jun 22 12:28:35 lcuk: why? you can fun with overloading new Jun 22 12:28:46 oh. leinir brought that up already :) Jun 22 12:28:47 so the syntax gets quickly heavy Jun 22 12:28:48 other people can Jun 22 12:29:09 * lcuk writes pseudocode Jun 22 12:29:11 at least use QML just like Designer use XML and implement the functional in plain C++ Jun 22 12:29:23 but mixing both make the thing very indigest Jun 22 12:29:36 not joking either timoph --> http://liqbase.net/liq.20110621_200232.codebox4.scr.png Jun 22 12:29:48 ovirriding operators in c++ has many many surprises even when you do not do outright evil stuff Jun 22 12:30:08 lcuk: cool Jun 22 12:30:36 timoph, many many times I would half draw an outline for a class or function onto paper Jun 22 12:30:45 now I can just do it in my handtyping Jun 22 12:30:50 :D Jun 22 12:37:38 TheBootroo: you can do that already .. Jun 22 12:37:56 That is the point, but qml is nice to edit, and I don't like designers. Jun 22 12:38:36 lcuk: That looks like Pascal... Jun 22 12:39:07 lcuk: whats that font? Jun 22 12:40:24 Jaffa: the Begin/End takes me back alright Jun 22 12:40:34 I was doing Delphi 5 years ago :-( Jun 22 12:40:42 Ouch Jun 22 12:40:43 After being employed to do Java. That was a shock. Jun 22 12:41:16 Well, we've all got our scares. I was forced to do VB6 stuff for a while Jun 22 12:42:02 hmm, I had to do some VB6 a couple of weeks ago Jun 22 12:42:13 not pleasant on Win7 Jun 22 12:42:35 slaine: me too :X Jun 22 12:42:42 pabs3, that is my handwriting Jun 22 12:42:52 Jaffa, that is nonsensical code Jun 22 12:42:56 but there is a parser for it Jun 22 12:43:06 as yet not wired up, but it exists Jun 22 12:43:24 Delphi still exists in open source Jun 22 12:43:25 lcuk: :) nice, needs some anti-aliasing though Jun 22 12:43:36 pabs3, at 250dpi+ I dont Jun 22 12:43:47 anti aliasing makes font lines 2x as wide Jun 22 12:44:11 but anti aliasing is available when I use qpainter to render sketchfonts in Jun 22 12:44:19 so people will be able to choose :) Jun 22 12:53:09 hi Jun 22 12:53:22 does MeeGo uses Wayland or will use in the future? Jun 22 12:53:51 I heard it is planned for the future. 1.4 or something Jun 22 12:54:01 wow, great! Jun 22 12:54:04 thanks! Jun 22 12:54:05 Planning and changes are afoot to try and get it in in 1.3 Jun 22 12:55:43 i have /etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY-meego will it be valid for all repos that i add to /etc/zypp/repos.d/1.2-oss.repo Jun 22 12:56:08 based on what the Debian maintainer of it says, I wouldn't bet on wayland being useful Jun 22 12:56:22 or this needs to be modified Jun 22 12:57:09 pabs3 guess it depends on what you want ;) Jun 22 12:57:40 pabs3: it's just a matter of getting apps ported to it i guess, Wayland is a serious win in lots of things. Jun 22 12:57:57 less footprint than X, KMS, etc Jun 22 13:00:10 X is more useful now though Jun 22 13:01:53 Google also rewrote graphics stack for Android? I'm not sure. Jun 22 13:02:11 Does Android have a graphics stack? Jun 22 13:02:28 pixelflinger Jun 22 13:02:30 i thought pretty much all of it was custom Jun 22 13:02:48 reasonably low level java based engine Jun 22 13:02:56 Yep, so far, lookslike a collection of semirandom Java classes Jun 22 13:02:59 works well so I hear Jun 22 13:03:12 And yes, I am honestly trying to develop for Android nowadays Jun 22 13:03:41 diegobz you mean zygote? Jun 22 13:03:43 lcuk: Works like the old PalmOS raped by Symbian. Jun 22 13:04:14 lcuk: But at least it looks like its designers are actually using whatever they design on the daily basis Jun 22 13:04:40 I'd consider X an immutable mandatory component of any proper linuxoid OS Jun 22 13:04:40 android has a graphics stack Jun 22 13:04:43 it's .. Jun 22 13:04:47 I have no words. Jun 22 13:04:56 Doc: Why? Jun 22 13:04:59 it is fast enough Jun 22 13:05:10 otherwise it's... well Andrid, or other crap Jun 22 13:05:16 Doc: X is really mostly to provide universal local+remote access to the desktop Jun 22 13:05:33 Doc: So, a Linux with the plain /dev/fb* device is still a Linux Jun 22 13:05:33 the android graphics stack has references up to the BeOS ;) Jun 22 13:05:45 not in my book Jun 22 13:06:02 xdirectfb? :D Jun 22 13:06:03 Doc: You are being a purist Jun 22 13:06:10 X mostly lets you run tons of existing software Jun 22 13:06:16 as mentioned above, *I* consider X11 madatory Jun 22 13:06:16 Doc: In this particular case, wrongly Jun 22 13:06:16 needing a GUI is for n00bs Jun 22 13:06:18 I agree with Doc here, my definition of sane Linux includes X. Jun 22 13:06:24 and let#s you run it over network :P Jun 22 13:06:36 anyway won't wayland have an X11 compatible module? Jun 22 13:06:40 * lcuk still wants visual basic 6 on his devices Jun 22 13:06:46 javispedro: Even if the only thing you ever use it for is to blit locally stored bitmaps? Jun 22 13:06:48 Damion_ you can run x on top of it Jun 22 13:06:52 all that's going to happen is some apps with not be network transparent in the same way ? Jun 22 13:07:02 Damion_: Wayland allows you to host a Xorg session as a Wayland client. Jun 22 13:07:03 like when Sun has NeWS Jun 22 13:07:04 RST38h: do you use it for something else these days? Jun 22 13:07:15 javoispedro: exactly Jun 22 13:07:27 javispedro: Even for remote access, I use VNC Jun 22 13:07:36 or with OpenGL which is uselss if you're not local. Some wayland only GUI apps not being able to be X forwarded is no loss as long as a wayland system can still receive an xterm Jun 22 13:07:45 Which works beautifully with the plain framebuffer Jun 22 13:07:46 vnc sucks Jun 22 13:07:49 :P Jun 22 13:08:01 and as a purest think any computer without Msvbvm60.dll incomplete ;) Jun 22 13:08:08 lcuk: even MS! Jun 22 13:08:20 lcuk: Any Windows computer. Jun 22 13:08:25 is that the new vbRun200.dll ? Jun 22 13:08:33 lcuk: Don't stick your dirty file into Unix ones =) Jun 22 13:08:36 * lcuk giggles Jun 22 13:08:38 last time I used windows was over a decade ago Jun 22 13:08:38 Damion_: s/new// Jun 22 13:08:52 RST38h, I make linux binaries and still call them .exe Jun 22 13:09:01 lcuk yuck Jun 22 13:09:07 lcuk: And you name shell scripts with .bat? =) Jun 22 13:09:14 :D hell yeah Jun 22 13:09:17 lcuk: you should talk more with miguel de icaza, you have many things to share Jun 22 13:09:24 Anyways, I do not consider X such a big issue, personally Jun 22 13:09:25 no Jun 22 13:09:41 I do consider POSIX compatibility a big issue though Jun 22 13:09:52 anyone in london want to see the n950 ? Jun 22 13:09:56 javispedro, the thing I am getting at: visualbasic 6 ide is splendid Jun 22 13:10:02 Whatever you do to that libc and libsockets and libpthreads, they should be compliant Jun 22 13:10:04 and was designed for lower screen resolutions Jun 22 13:10:16 so my 1024*600 ideapad is closer to its original design size Jun 22 13:10:27 (regularly had it on 800*600 desktops) Jun 22 13:10:35 lcuk: are you talking about the sdi or mdi one? Jun 22 13:10:48 Damion_ could you send it to berlin? Jun 22 13:10:49 :D Jun 22 13:11:19 javispedro, MDI, I like my sanity Jun 22 13:11:24 otherwise it looks like GIMP Jun 22 13:11:28 hello. quick question, is a 4GB micro SD (class 6) enough for meego 1.2 CE or do I need 8GB? should I even be asking this in here? :) Jun 22 13:11:31 and windows get lost Jun 22 13:11:40 Jucato: sounds good Jun 22 13:11:41 lcuk ever seen gimp unstable? Jun 22 13:11:43 Jucato, 4gb is perfect Jun 22 13:12:06 Damion_: Damn. Am tomorrow/Friday, but working from home today Jun 22 13:12:25 Stskeeps, lcuk: ah thanks. I finally found one earlier in a local store. unfortunately, not enough funds. will try again in a few days and hope they still have stock. :) Jun 22 13:12:49 http://pebcak.deviantart.com/gallery/221404 << gimp unstable <3 Jun 22 13:21:27 berndhs: So who *do* you trust? (re: https://twitter.com/#!/berndhs/statuses/83523388571779073) Jun 22 13:21:59 berndhs: Any UX which is vaguely MeeGoish has been developed behind closed doors and thrown over the wall. Jun 22 13:22:10 its just when a company changes their story a few times, and says things that are only technically true, my trust in them is limited Jun 22 13:22:18 that's normal I think Jun 22 13:22:32 berndhs: Which company and "things" are you referring to? Jun 22 13:22:47 Nokia about their MeeGo policies Jun 22 13:23:35 and actually about Maemo as well Jun 22 13:23:51 Just be a pesimist and expect everybody to take you for a ride, because then you can be pleasantly surprised when, from time to time, they don't ;) Jun 22 13:23:56 what they have done over the past 18 months or so makes them hard to predict for outsiders Jun 22 13:24:09 and the rest of the time you can have the smug self-satisfaction of "I told you so"-ness ;) Jun 22 13:24:24 leinir: taking quotes from me? :P Jun 22 13:24:31 I'm not sure it "changed" - it evolved and got bigger, until it fundamentally changed on Feb 11th. Jun 22 13:24:51 MeeGo was a surprise for the Maemo community, wasn't it ? Jun 22 13:25:01 As it was to the Moblin community, wasn't it? Jun 22 13:25:11 my point is that without insider knowledge, Nokia is not predictable Jun 22 13:25:26 berndhs: OK, but are you claiming that someone else *is*? Jun 22 13:25:35 no I'm saying that Nokia isn't Jun 22 13:26:00 Well if no-one is predictable, Nokia not being either is a bit of a non-statement ;-) Jun 22 13:26:01 and this isn't Elop, it's Nokia Jun 22 13:26:41 back later Jun 22 13:26:44 Hell, Nokia is unpredictable even with insider knowledge Jun 22 13:27:08 May have to resort to psychiatrists and the chaos theory Jun 22 13:27:33 And the phases of the moon Jun 22 13:28:16 as long as you don't need to do any planning of your own based on what they do, that's ok Jun 22 13:28:52 BERND Jun 22 13:34:07 How many different sets of "components" (QtQuick, QML, ?) are there? Jun 22 13:34:11 I am losing track Jun 22 13:34:34 qml it language Jun 22 13:34:41 qtquick is framewrok Jun 22 13:35:13 there is a kit of components for meego : macro qml element : MeeGo Components Jun 22 13:35:29 there are Qwidgets from Qt plain C++ Jun 22 13:36:00 and there are Widgets developped by nokia team on top of QGraphicsItem : MeeGo Touch Framework Jun 22 13:36:42 and there are the components used by the N9 stuff Jun 22 13:37:01 SO you are doing Qt (hear QWidget), QML (QtQuick with MeeGO Components) or MTF (MeeGo Touch Framework) Jun 22 13:37:07 have you n9 specs Jun 22 13:37:09 berndhs: N9 uses MTF Jun 22 13:37:18 berndhs: just a theme on top Jun 22 13:37:25 ah I see Jun 22 13:37:27 I am trying to figure out the minimum number of UIs I need to target desktop, the various MeeGo platforms, and Harmattan Jun 22 13:37:30 TheBootroo: mtf and qt components. Jun 22 13:38:04 and qt components is what app developers should use. Jun 22 13:38:22 and there is a subset of MTF used by meego tablet UX (which is in QML but needs Qt Classes) named MLite (or MLT) Jun 22 13:38:44 Qt Components are 'official' meta widgets for QML Jun 22 13:39:42 pvuorela: developer could use MTF, which is base framework for Harmattan by example Jun 22 13:39:43 So I can safely forget about MTF since it is only (?) used in Harmattan, but you can also use plain Qt and QML there Jun 22 13:40:00 too many puppies Jun 22 13:40:06 IMHO MTF is closer to plain Qt and looks better too. Jun 22 13:40:50 Harmattan might really fly in the market and be continued Jun 22 13:41:01 berndhs: yes Jun 22 13:41:05 TheBootroo: But was is the future potential of MTF? Isn't it being phased out most places? Jun 22 13:41:26 fiferboy: MTF != QML Jun 22 13:41:27 fiferboy: that's my understanding, the problem is that there's a disconnect between the MeeGo UX Components and the Qt Components used in Harmatten for QML apps Jun 22 13:41:55 TheBootroo: Right, I would rather focus on QML if MTF is being deprecated Jun 22 13:41:55 fiferboy: MTF is for guys (like me) who want beautiful Hardware accelerated UI in plain C++ Jun 22 13:41:56 because of !$%^ stupid decisions to close the harmattan ones Jun 22 13:41:57 for instance Jun 22 13:42:17 fiferboy: it will not be, and i will never focus on QML Jun 22 13:42:19 MTF was deprecated in Feb iirc for MeeGo Jun 22 13:42:25 Stskeeps: Stupid decisions abound around both sets of Qt components :-( Jun 22 13:42:27 slaine: way earlier Jun 22 13:42:57 TheBootroo: But if you are going to target other MeeGo UX platforms MTF won't necessarily be there Jun 22 13:43:03 I think you're better off having mechanisms to support n versions of QtQuick Jun 22 13:43:17 that way you don't ahve to care what value n takes next month Jun 22 13:43:56 Harmattan UI was before all a concept of beautiful UI based on Qt and that would have been common between Symbian 4 and Maemo 6. Then went MeeGo and nokia developped MTF for it. then went Elop, and Nokia seemed to close MeeGo dev but in fact continued it closed doors Jun 22 13:44:12 I think the approach I'd take would be to target Qt C++ with UX descriptor in QML and try to find common ground between both sets of components. Jun 22 13:44:13 fiferboy: then i will use plain Qt Jun 22 13:44:21 fiferboy: i don't want QML in my apps Jun 22 13:44:28 Either design around the diffs or work with meego to provide abstrations Jun 22 13:44:32 TheBootroo: Plain Qt isn't properly themed in a lot of cases on MeeGo Jun 22 13:45:00 fiferboy: that will be enhanced, but QML is not finished neither stable Jun 22 13:45:07 not just themed, plain qwidgets qt isn't really proper for mobile devices that support different orientation or finger usable ui. Jun 22 13:46:29 MTF was nice, because they were QGraphicsView + SVG + CSS and overall C++, QML is lame i dont want Javascript apps, i want C++ Apps Jun 22 13:46:30 fiferboy: QML has themes, now? Jun 22 13:46:41 gabrbedd: not really Jun 22 13:46:51 TheBootroo: I know. Jun 22 13:47:08 slaine: Indeed, I think my first non graphical (i.e. standard UI app) is going to have some adaptation layer Jun 22 13:47:10 gabrbedd: Point taken, you can theme your own qwidget application Jun 22 13:47:12 gabrbedd: only redefinitions of widget set, because QML is basically sotry of rectangles Jun 22 13:47:34 slaine: Cos I want to target both. I imagine a few devs'll do this and we'll merge them and try and build on top of each other's work. Jun 22 13:47:53 But Qt Components is supposed to provide a unified look and feel Jun 22 13:47:56 slaine: Of course, to be MeeGo Compliant we can't depend on this library/adapting QML library, we'll have to copy & paste or not be compliant Jun 22 13:48:05 fiferboy: It is. On Symbian & Harmattan. Jun 22 13:48:08 Nod, I totally +1 your LWN post Jun 22 13:48:29 Jaffa: And MeeGo UX Components on MeeGo targets Jun 22 13:48:40 fiferboy: It *might* also work on MeeGo "proper". In which case, MeeGo UX Components may fade anyway Jun 22 13:48:47 fiferboy: Correct. Jun 22 13:49:15 Does Qt Components follow the desktop Qt look and feel on a desktop target? Jun 22 13:49:25 Are Vendors expected to provide their own extensions to Qt/MeeGo Components ? Jun 22 13:49:33 I'm thinking HTC Sense UI here Jun 22 13:50:11 IF HTC decided to make a MeeGo device with QML apps, they'd want set of Sense UI extensions I'm sure Jun 22 13:50:13 fiferboy: i don't see how they could, they are not Qwidget, they are only styled rectangles Jun 22 13:51:03 you can make anything you want out of styled rectangles :) Jun 22 13:51:16 TheBootroo: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/03/10/qml-components-for-desktop/ Jun 22 13:51:23 fiferboy: There is a project on labs.qt.nokia.com --^ Jun 22 13:51:25 Looks like there is potential there Jun 22 13:51:46 slaine: They can supply additional libraries of components, I guess. Jun 22 13:51:55 slaine: But apps depending on it won't be compliant Jun 22 13:52:00 Which seems reasonable Jun 22 13:52:04 true Jun 22 13:52:24 There're still a lot of questions about compliance & QML though, I think Jun 22 13:52:36 which is lame Jun 22 13:53:10 berndhs, try drawing sketches with rectangles only Jun 22 13:53:35 i think we could have a MeeGoTouch QStyle for plain Qt Apps no ? and then for each meego theme, a simmple CSS to change colors and fonts Jun 22 13:53:39 and note that the one true polygon is the triangle Jun 22 13:53:47 berndhs: yes but since the functional is merged with appearance in QML, you need a new version of each component for each theme Jun 22 13:53:58 just ask javispedro Jun 22 13:54:18 n-tier! Jun 22 13:54:20 Of course, Apple get away with succesful devices without theming. And I've never seen user-themed Android devices (maybe I've not looked) Jun 22 13:54:37 TheBootroo: yes basically you need to do different "import" for each target Jun 22 13:54:51 Jaffa, having a good framework and enough customisation to get around it, you do not need widget theming as such Jun 22 13:54:58 TheBootroo: at least, potentially different qml code Jun 22 13:55:05 but where you want to totally customise not only look but feel too Jun 22 13:55:09 you need variation components Jun 22 13:58:05 my connection bugged Jun 22 13:58:21 i was saying Jun 22 13:58:38 are specs of n9 public an is it the the last meego device? Jun 22 13:59:04 monoid: its not the last meego device, that's pretty certain Jun 22 13:59:15 monoid: The specs are public; it is not the last MeeGo device, it *may* be *Nokia's* last MeeGo device Jun 22 13:59:18 we could have basically a qstyle for meego and use css to just change colors and fonts, and then have a fully themable component kit for plain c++/Qt4 Jun 22 13:59:32 i have not found the specs Jun 22 13:59:37 where are they? Jun 22 13:59:55 monoid: http://swipe.nokia.com/ Jun 22 14:00:08 thank you very mutch Jun 22 14:00:51 that is not specs Jun 22 14:01:01 monoid: They're in there somewhere Jun 22 14:01:18 monoid: look at specifiaction section on the site Jun 22 14:01:32 monoid: https://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/ more specifically then Jun 22 14:02:21 i foun http://www.phonearena.com/phones/Nokia-N9_id5187 Jun 22 14:03:11 they are sure quiet about the SoC and hardware Jun 22 14:03:43 monoid: Really? It's an OMAP3630 Jun 22 14:03:48 the link Jaffa gave has the details Jun 22 14:03:50 monoid: read carefully Jun 22 14:03:52 (the last link) Jun 22 14:04:30 http://www.gadgetnews.in/nokia-n9-meego-smartphone/ also Jun 22 14:05:01 jaffa's link does not contain "OMAP" Jun 22 14:05:09 it does Jun 22 14:05:37 TI OMAP Model 3630 Jun 22 14:05:41 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/ Jun 22 14:06:10 does not contain "omap" Jun 22 14:06:18 ... Jun 22 14:06:30 you sure you've expanded them all before you did your search? Jun 22 14:07:10 expanded what? Jun 22 14:07:12 monoid: General -section says "TI OMAP Model 3630" Jun 22 14:07:24 Expand All | Collapse All Jun 22 14:07:29 expand the sections Jun 22 14:07:42 monoid: you noob ? Jun 22 14:07:49 why do they hide it? Jun 22 14:07:51 now i see it Jun 22 14:08:23 what is 'rom memory'? Jun 22 14:08:32 64GB Jun 22 14:08:34 512MB partition for the OS? Jun 22 14:08:49 "ROM Memory: 512 MB" Jun 22 14:08:51 monoid: Yeah, I think it means root partition Jun 22 14:09:01 monoid: just expand the memory tab Jun 22 14:09:29 monoid: or go read one of the thousand articles that reproduce the specs and some photos Jun 22 14:09:44 if i hadn't expanded the memory tab, i would not have seen "ROM Memory: 512 MB" Jun 22 14:09:45 hey guys, what's in store for nokia? Jun 22 14:09:50 does it exist in a few years? Jun 22 14:09:51 but thank you for your attempt at assistance TheBootroo_ Jun 22 14:11:29 t8: It will exist. Jun 22 14:11:45 t8: If its stock price will have collapsed, and it will be a brand of a chinese maker - who knows. Jun 22 14:11:51 nice to see ogg vorbis support! Jun 22 14:12:11 1450mAh yaay! Jun 22 14:12:50 eh? 1340->1450 = yaay ?? Jun 22 14:13:12 <10% Jun 22 14:13:15 better than 1250 Jun 22 14:13:28 1250? Jun 22 14:13:29 well if all you needed was 1341 mAh, its a big step :p Jun 22 14:13:55 hehe Jun 22 14:14:07 N900 = 1250mAh BL-5J Jun 22 14:14:13 Hi, Jun 22 14:14:13 Just a quick note, we are busy at work still.. You can grab the testing image (final candidate) from here now: Jun 22 14:14:13 http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/daily/1.2.0.90.5.20110621.5.DE.2011-06-22.1/images/mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-ce-testing/ Jun 22 14:14:13 Tomorrow morning we will have the final image, and I will let you know. Sorry for the slight delay! Jun 22 14:14:15 Jukka Jun 22 14:14:27 * ShadowJK needs accurate near-realtime battery state tracking, after that managing power use becomes possible Jun 22 14:14:28 that last mA might suffice for the house number at end of 911 call Jun 22 14:14:38 monoid, 1320 Jun 22 14:14:53 oh, 20, not 40, ok Jun 22 14:15:09 hmm you are right Jun 22 14:15:44 not that it's 1320 as used in N900, but best compare published values with published values Jun 22 14:17:30 lcuk: its summer release RC ? Jun 22 14:17:31 I'm more amazed about what N9 makes out of those 1450mAh Jun 22 14:17:46 fun fact: the 5800 uses the same BL-5J battery and it lasts for about a month Jun 22 14:18:03 supposed standby on WCDMA is incredible Jun 22 14:18:26 wondering if they got a new modem or still are using BB5 Jun 22 14:18:50 DocScrutinizer, the ui looks reactive rather than fancypants wasteful effects Jun 22 14:18:53 ali1234: 5800XM is 384Mhz and always disconnect network if not in the browser Jun 22 14:19:07 ie, nice and polished and simple Jun 22 14:19:15 TheBootroo_, yes Jun 22 14:19:22 N900 runs about 10 days in same conditions iirc Jun 22 14:19:24 yeah, iow, it works properly Jun 22 14:20:05 you can't expect users to reconfigure the whole phone just to make the battery life acceptable Jun 22 14:20:19 oh actually, that was with internet connected Jun 22 14:20:22 so make it great out of the box Jun 22 14:20:27 yes Jun 22 14:20:32 and give a ux that requires little modification Jun 22 14:20:35 and win/win Jun 22 14:21:29 can this run meego? http://www.pocketdroid.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Motorola-Milestone-3.jpg Jun 22 14:21:53 lcuk: N900 been great ootb, it's just way too easy to get it messed up by silly animated wallpapers widgets younameit Jun 22 14:22:23 SKYPE!! Jun 22 14:22:39 DocScrutinizer, widgets were often not animated, it was and remains things like internet services etc Jun 22 14:22:53 yeah, skype Jun 22 14:23:02 and other IM sh*t Jun 22 14:23:05 and media metadata collection ;) Jun 22 14:23:06 lcuk: i'm gonna try to dl it tonight but each time i tried, it has disconnected me à 150 MB or worse, dl all with very changeant rate (every second move between 5Kbps and 500Kbps) and at end continues to dl i don't know what even with 450/450MB done and goes endless like this (i finally stopped it à 576/450MB WTF) Jun 22 14:23:16 monoid: it would be cool to see palm pre2 / hp pre3 running meego :) Jun 22 14:23:24 monoid: all can run meego but nothing does because of blocked bootladers and missing drivers Jun 22 14:23:43 the hp/palm devices have no bootloader locks Jun 22 14:23:46 lcuk: tracker supposed to run once Jun 22 14:23:57 but drivers, that's a potential issue, yeah Jun 22 14:23:59 TheBootroo_, the maemo servers have been solid, stable and reliable for pretty much the duration I have been around Jun 22 14:24:07 I guess it is your end that is not so stable Jun 22 14:24:16 hp/palm is not landscape is it? Jun 22 14:24:27 no, portrait slider Jun 22 14:24:27 DocScrutinizer, tracker runs for each new piece of media Jun 22 14:24:34 yep Jun 22 14:24:34 so take a picture with camera etc Jun 22 14:24:38 or movie Jun 22 14:24:57 some1 tried documents in N9 ? read only or editiing too ? Jun 22 14:25:01 not an issue as the data is required Jun 22 14:25:09 anyway, I think a sanity-checker daemon should come in handy Jun 22 14:25:10 N9 is going to rule Jun 22 14:25:10 marginally frustrating Jun 22 14:25:25 DocScrutinizer, "place device on forehead" Jun 22 14:25:40 new capacitive screen can do brainscanning? Jun 22 14:26:02 install $nasty-app -> 10min later sanity-checker hollers about something ramped up power demand of device to an insane state Jun 22 14:26:06 t8: I just wish there was a version with a hard keyboard Jun 22 14:26:09 lcuk: i know my connection is poor : at work proxy blocks too large files, at home (study residence) french ley 'HADOPI' has stopped connection, and in public rates are not stable Jun 22 14:26:16 lcuk: NFC will work with the chip in your brain Jun 22 14:26:40 hmm reasonable berndhs Jun 22 14:27:17 is nfc more or less buggy than bluetooth Jun 22 14:27:19 lcuk: something like a daemonized join of htop and powertop Jun 22 14:28:00 lcuk: and cpu load monitor Jun 22 14:28:23 well, I guess that's already included in htop :-P Jun 22 14:28:37 at some point running all those monitoring things takes up more battery power than the apps they are watching for Jun 22 14:28:45 lol Jun 22 14:29:00 so you want it in a healthcheck mode Jun 22 14:29:11 I discussed these sorts of things with greg Jun 22 14:29:12 DocScrutinizer, I need a sanity-checker as well. Too bad mine would be stuck on "Insane" Jun 22 14:29:19 that's true of batterygraph and battery-eye in a way :) Jun 22 14:29:22 DocScrutinizer, Maemo has HealthCheck app Jun 22 14:29:29 which should generate a report based on those things Jun 22 14:29:35 you could enable it for check on each installation of a pkg Jun 22 14:29:36 but not be running all of them all the time Jun 22 14:29:54 DocScrutinizer, discuss such things in the -qa channel Jun 22 14:29:57 You know, my own bq27200 script at 5s poll interval approximately halves standby life :) Jun 22 14:30:04 we are aiming to have a performance build of the community stuff Jun 22 14:30:13 ShadowJK: yay Jun 22 14:30:36 which when combined iwth the qa-tools stuff will actually allow reproducable reports to be made potentially per package as you said Jun 22 14:30:44 ShadowJK: tough your script surely could use some optimization regarding that Jun 22 14:31:01 It's all about the wakeups :) Jun 22 14:31:18 yeah, but also about minimizing CPU load Jun 22 14:31:26 and I2C access Jun 22 14:31:45 didn't make much of a difference to power use by cutting cpu use to a tenth of current Jun 22 14:32:05 o.O Jun 22 14:32:35 biggest impact is the reduction of time spent in "suspend to ram" :) Jun 22 14:32:40 try reading bq27200 in batch mode, rather than reg by reg Jun 22 14:33:18 I had it reading one single register, percentage capacity one :P Jun 22 14:33:24 I2C for sure isn't for free Jun 22 14:33:43 iirc that's 8 bit register :) Jun 22 14:33:44 ok, fair enough Jun 22 14:35:23 I usually see current ramp up from ~5mA for bq27200.sh 60 to ~25mA for interval 5 Jun 22 14:35:27 possibility of a MTF open fork ? Jun 22 14:37:53 DocScrutinizer, also at interval 60, the 5 is for a period before bq27200.sh woke up to take reading. Then it sleeps when the hw is offering a reading with the power use of bq27200 included Jun 22 14:38:07 TheBootroo_, it is open? Jun 22 14:38:13 so you dont actually see it Jun 22 14:38:16 TheBootroo_, meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch Jun 22 14:38:57 mikhas: yes i thought too but one said me it has been deprecated because nokia closed it ? Jun 22 14:39:02 i'm lost Jun 22 14:41:15 there appear to be factions within Nokia, some may not have closed it :) Jun 22 14:42:35 TheBootroo_, it is not recommended for application developers, in MeeGo. Jun 22 14:43:01 MTF was never closed (yes, there are closed bits *on top*) Jun 22 14:43:08 mikhas: but why if it not closed ? Jun 22 14:43:22 TheBootroo_: Because it is viewed as not the best way to develop MeeGo apps Jun 22 14:43:24 because C++ is too hard for fart app developers Jun 22 14:43:33 but you can start a fork of MTF and the dependent components Jun 22 14:43:35 fuck to them Jun 22 14:43:45 i am true developer and NEED a true C++ api Jun 22 14:43:46 Jaffa said the same more polite, of course. Jun 22 14:44:20 mikhas: why more polite ? "fart" is shocking i found... /D Jun 22 14:44:36 Actually, QGraphicsView and its implications when you try to build a toolkit on top of that are really not nice. Jun 22 14:45:09 There's lot of WTF's in MTF, but well, it's also rather stable and fast now ... Jun 22 14:45:39 and beautiful, easy skinnable and sweet set of widgets Jun 22 14:46:00 TheBootroo_, we need to cater to web developers if we ever want to create a MeeGo Ecosystem. Jun 22 14:46:12 (that's the manager's version ;-) Jun 22 14:46:27 mikhas, c++ is not the issue Jun 22 14:46:39 it is the IDE -> device path that is long Jun 22 14:46:47 MTF is not part of the official API Jun 22 14:46:51 you can open qt creator and make a fart app Jun 22 14:46:51 it's there, you can use it now Jun 22 14:46:51 to get a decent ecosystem you need predictability, and devices Jun 22 14:46:53 lcuk, I use MTF on my desktop Jun 22 14:46:54 in 5 minutes Jun 22 14:47:00 in 3 minutes Jun 22 14:47:05 but getting it then onto various target devices is troublesome Jun 22 14:47:05 don't blame us if your app stops working when we remove it or change incompatibly Jun 22 14:47:32 mikhas, if we are being picky, I can open *visual basic* on my windows machine and have a maemo app in seconds ;) Jun 22 14:47:33 I compile C++ and can make install directly onto the device, too. Jun 22 14:47:35 thiago: QML is not stabilized neither Jun 22 14:47:36 * alterego wonders what might be lacking from Harmattan that will get stick from users. Jun 22 14:47:48 TheBootroo_: QML as a language and basics is stable enough Jun 22 14:47:56 the components are missing and that's not established Jun 22 14:47:59 I guess at least it has MMS Jun 22 14:48:01 mikhas, take that same app and get it onto all your friends devices too Jun 22 14:48:15 but it's enough for a fart app and many things way more complex Jun 22 14:48:24 alterego: yes it has them Jun 22 14:48:37 alterego: Desktop widgets Jun 22 14:48:43 lcuk, yes, I'll use HTML5 for that Jun 22 14:48:50 Well, I know it has it, I'm just wondering about stuff it doesn't have that'll annoy people :) Jun 22 14:48:54 fiferboy: wip ;) Jun 22 14:48:55 then I get it onto my friend's IPhone, too Jun 22 14:49:02 mikhas, toolkit not important, delivery mechanism is! Jun 22 14:49:06 alterego: Oh? Jun 22 14:49:12 I want pannable desktop widgets on the lock screen :) Jun 22 14:49:32 Ah, lock screen. Hadn't considered that Jun 22 14:49:42 Apparently you can also have simple widgets in the events view Jun 22 14:49:58 I still need to download the sdk and check out possibilities, there are a few options :) Jun 22 14:50:28 What about contact groups and per contact/group ring tones? Jun 22 14:50:34 alterego: I was contemplating a plugin to give a fourth view (in addition to event, app, running) for a simple widget view Jun 22 14:50:46 Multiple profile support rather than the two we have. Jun 22 14:50:51 And I have heard anything about the device profiles Jun 22 14:50:57 fiferboy: I was also thinking the same. Jun 22 14:51:12 I haven't dug far enough into the SDK to see if it is possible Jun 22 14:51:14 Maybe both would be good :) Jun 22 14:51:42 Contact shortcuts would seem to be a big thing that is missing Jun 22 14:51:50 Yeah, Jun 22 14:52:10 But you do have favourite contacts right at the top of the contacts view. Jun 22 14:52:13 I guess a well written contact application would take care of that mostly, though Jun 22 14:54:11 lcuk, so you agree with me that we need to use HTML5? Jun 22 14:54:26 best delivery mechanism Jun 22 14:55:00 why only html5? Jun 22 14:55:12 and no - I don't mind which is used Jun 22 14:55:23 as long as idea->prototype->product cycle works Jun 22 14:55:44 that is what counts Jun 22 14:56:05 for fiferboy to get his app into the hands of all the birdwatchers of the world Jun 22 14:56:15 and for khertan to energise python devlopers Jun 22 14:56:22 and jaffa to give everyone attitude Jun 22 14:56:25 etc Jun 22 14:56:49 Is any of the Harmattan UI in qml? Jun 22 14:57:07 I suppose I'll know in a few minutes anyway ^_^ Jun 22 14:57:18 * alterego thinks not. Jun 22 14:57:19 alterego: I have heard that a few of the applications are QML Jun 22 14:57:33 But the majority is MTF Jun 22 14:57:55 lcuk: MeeGo bird watchers will have their day! Jun 22 14:58:06 good stuff fiferboy Jun 22 14:58:36 fiferboy, with the amazing cameras on Nokia devices building up a great media catalogue is good Jun 22 14:58:37 Hmm, maybe a good tagline: "MeeGo Bird Watching" Jun 22 14:58:58 andre__: will it be possible to add bugs against 3rd party apps (e.g. like the Extras components in the Maemo bugtracker)? Jun 22 14:59:07 fiferboy, having a meego slate to manage a set of remote cameras Jun 22 14:59:22 lcuk: Unless the camera is the 35mm equivalent of 300mm you are going to need to be a _very_ good bird photographer :) Jun 22 14:59:32 lardman, with regard to MeeGo I assume? Jun 22 14:59:35 lcuk: Ah, now that is a good idea Jun 22 14:59:45 lardman, join the fun in https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12589 :) Jun 22 14:59:48 Bug 12589 nor, Undecided, ---, dawn.m.foster, NEW, Allow addition of 3rd party products into bugs.meego.com Jun 22 14:59:48 andre__: yes Meego and more specifically Harmattan Jun 22 14:59:51 fiferboy, collection of machines Jun 22 14:59:56 working together :) Jun 22 15:00:08 lcuk: Did you just create SkyNet? Jun 22 15:00:13 lardman: Harmattan? can you elaborate? Jun 22 15:00:18 did you not see my recent tweets? Jun 22 15:00:30 I was musing about http://my.data last night Jun 22 15:00:38 http://twitter.com/lcuk Jun 22 15:00:38 andre__: just saw your post to the -dev lists about where Harmattan bugs should be filed Jun 22 15:00:49 fiferboy, I have multiple devices Jun 22 15:00:52 lcuk: Ah, your cloud syncing tweets? Jun 22 15:00:59 I want my data to be synced across all of them Jun 22 15:01:01 lardman, ah. Not in any MeeGo or Maemo Bugzilla. ;-) Jun 22 15:01:03 when I draw a sketch on one Jun 22 15:01:07 it is available on all Jun 22 15:01:11 yes Jun 22 15:01:12 :) Jun 22 15:01:12 lcuk: My application syncs across multipe devices :P Jun 22 15:01:20 oooh Jun 22 15:01:22 andre__: will the nokia tracker allow 3rd party apps? Jun 22 15:01:35 bugtracker that is Jun 22 15:01:41 fiferboy, problem with http://my.data is that ICANN haven't got it in place yet Jun 22 15:01:43 so I asked Jun 22 15:01:47 lardman, I don't know anything about nokia's bugtracker. and I guess "no". Jun 22 15:01:48 At least, devices where the Qt mysql plugin is available :( Jun 22 15:01:58 lardman, it's very developer oriented, not for endusers reporting something Jun 22 15:02:10 fiferboy, I was told to get similar domain would cost debian project 6 figures Jun 22 15:02:17 fiferboy: alterego: only some 3rd party apps are un QML (accuweater, vimeo..), nokia apps and the full OS is MTF Jun 22 15:02:20 so .data would be similar Jun 22 15:02:22 andre__: ok fair enough, I guess the meego.com bugtracker would be the place then assuming it's eventually allowed Jun 22 15:02:48 lardman, if you see the discussion in the bug report I linked it looks like it's rather going to be a separate installation Jun 22 15:02:54 TheBootroo_: Ah, I wasn't sure if it was third-party that were refered to where I read it Jun 22 15:03:02 in the interim is it possible to add a new version to maemo.org's bugtracker? Jun 22 15:03:04 lcuk: gTLDs? yeah, there isa flat fee to apply, it's $184,000, and then it's $26,000/ year to renew *if* your application is successful. at least that's what i read. Jun 22 15:03:15 yeah ali1234 Jun 22 15:03:18 to catch bugs seen in the dev devices? Jun 22 15:03:21 but I just want my.data ;) Jun 22 15:03:24 in 3rd party apps Jun 22 15:03:37 the specifics are just frosting Jun 22 15:03:48 * lcuk waves at lardman Jun 22 15:03:53 hi lcuk Jun 22 15:04:15 * TheBootroo_ finds MeeGo Touch Framework in Harmattan actually ROXX Jun 22 15:04:33 * lardman goes to pack an IR camera Jun 22 15:04:54 Is there a package list for Marmattan available? Jun 22 15:04:55 look there for MTF screenshots : http://www.developer.nokia.com/swipe/ux/pages/building_blocks.html Jun 22 15:04:58 Somewhere easy to access? Jun 22 15:05:12 fiferboy: yes Jun 22 15:05:17 i saw a list fiferboy Jun 22 15:05:19 http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/unstable/beta/Fremantle_Update7_vs_Harmattan_Beta_content_comparison.html Jun 22 15:05:26 fiferboy: in developer.nokia.com specs Jun 22 15:05:29 pabs3: Thanks! Jun 22 15:05:31 or http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ Jun 22 15:06:14 lardman, you only refer to 3rd party stuff? hmm. good question. Jun 22 15:06:50 Gah, no libqt4-sql-mysql :( Jun 22 15:07:04 lardman: if apps existed for maemo already and now run on meego and have their canonical bugtracker home in bugs.maemo.org this might make sense Jun 22 15:10:32 I'm getting a full time contract with them to do QML/Qt work for MeeGo (and possibly other stuff she couldn't tell me over the phone) Jun 22 15:13:54 alterego: that calls for beer! Jun 22 15:14:14 Shit Jun 22 15:14:27 That wasn't bemeant for public :P Jun 22 15:14:46 beer still ;) Jun 22 15:14:59 * Stskeeps plays with agile browser Jun 22 15:15:08 :) Jun 22 15:15:20 alterego, We'll pretend we didn't see it. Jun 22 15:15:22 RIGHT CHANNEL? Jun 22 15:15:26 I'm downloading Harmattan SDK, and about to do some chores ;) Jun 22 15:17:54 Termana: Right. Jun 22 15:19:53 Oh no! "It is an X11 server that Jun 22 15:19:53 provides a device screen for the Maemo application windows" Jun 22 15:20:03 (in harmattan release notes ;) Jun 22 15:20:04 heh Jun 22 15:20:15 xephyr ;p Jun 22 15:21:26 when will they start shipping out the N950s?! :D Jun 22 15:21:35 how will we know if we got one? ;) Jun 22 15:21:39 ok ok, i'll stop trolling now Jun 22 15:21:42 ;) Jun 22 15:21:44 hey guys Jun 22 15:22:28 I hope we find out by early next week :) Jun 22 15:23:43 I really want to bitch slap the people who are saying "Harmattan is an outdated abandoned OS" Jun 22 15:23:53 TSCHAKeee: dpkg -l Jun 22 15:23:59 Yeah, seems a bit silly. Jun 22 15:24:01 yeah they should at least wait and try it before saying that :) Jun 22 15:24:47 yeah just that Nokia says they'll abandon it doesn't mean they will :) Jun 22 15:24:53 although i'm pretty sure it is a fact that MTF is outdated and abandoned Jun 22 15:25:00 who has a n950? Jun 22 15:25:23 thiago and a few of the senior guys at Qt Jun 22 15:25:36 some other nokia engineers who walk around in here Jun 22 15:26:05 * alterego points to your mom Jun 22 15:26:44 i would like one. Jun 22 15:27:09 Join the queue Jun 22 15:27:10 :P Jun 22 15:27:20 Everyone wants new shiny Jun 22 15:28:22 will there be n950 for debian devs? Jun 22 15:28:23 alterego, not always Jun 22 15:28:24 :D Jun 22 15:28:40 peb no :P Jun 22 15:28:53 What has debian got to do with MeeGo? Jun 22 15:29:07 And I don't think nokia have that many to give away .. Jun 22 15:29:11 somebody should make a wallet with bluetooth keyboard, then i might buy N9 Jun 22 15:29:35 alterego: While MeeGo has nothing to do with Debian, Harmattan is Debian-based. Jun 22 15:29:35 alterego so the n9 doesn't use meego :D Jun 22 15:29:39 * alterego has a nice bluetooth keyboard .. Jun 22 15:29:46 juliank indeed Jun 22 15:29:54 pebcak: The N9 is MeeGo Jun 22 15:30:05 alterego no it#s debian based Jun 22 15:30:06 It's MeeGo damnbit! Jun 22 15:30:13 meego meego is fedora based Jun 22 15:30:19 no Jun 22 15:30:25 meego isn't anything based damnit Jun 22 15:30:32 juliank: It uses debs, it is not debian based. Jun 22 15:30:36 meego meego Jun 22 15:30:39 harmattan meego Jun 22 15:30:40 that would explain why fedora packages work so well Jun 22 15:30:40 i thought we established this ages ago? Jun 22 15:30:41 ali1234: meego is linux based Jun 22 15:30:46 Termana's ice cream truck meego Jun 22 15:30:59 MeeGo is a set of APIs and software stack specifications, and qt testing packages. Jun 22 15:30:59 linux is not a distro Jun 22 15:31:31 ali1234: I didn't claim it was. meego is linux based, just like Debian/Fedora are linux based Jun 22 15:31:34 X-Fade what else does it use of debian? Jun 22 15:31:38 s/qt/qa/ Jun 22 15:31:48 pabs3: except that debian can run on *bsd too Jun 22 15:31:58 kfreebsd Jun 22 15:31:59 true Jun 22 15:31:59 woo! Jun 22 15:32:00 :D Jun 22 15:32:08 We could also discuss this and wast a lot of time, while at the same time competitors take over the market. We really need to pick our battles wiser. Jun 22 15:32:18 pebcak: you tell us? Tall GNU/Linux installs use pretty much the same software .. Jun 22 15:32:35 s/Tall/All Jun 22 15:32:40 true enough Jun 22 15:32:45 i wonder if there is a name as funny as swipe Jun 22 15:32:59 SWIPER, NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 15:33:01 SWIPER NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 15:33:06 SWIPER, NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 15:33:10 OHHHH MAAAANNN!!!! Jun 22 15:33:12 :P Jun 22 15:33:19 haha Jun 22 15:33:20 alterego there are some signifigant differences how some things are handled and you know that.... Jun 22 15:33:22 X-Fade: It uses dpkg, apt, debian source packages, the debian policy to a certain extent, so it's clearly Debian-based. Jun 22 15:33:30 TSCHAKeee, I even heard you click your fingers Jun 22 15:33:30 ^^ Jun 22 15:33:37 TSCHAKeee, lol Jun 22 15:33:39 lcuk: rofl Jun 22 15:33:40 pebcak: like what? Jun 22 15:33:48 god damn i'm getting old. Jun 22 15:33:49 juliank: Packaging doesn't make something based on Debian. Jun 22 15:33:51 ;) Jun 22 15:33:54 init, packaging blablablabla Jun 22 15:34:11 pebcak: it uses upstart, that isn't debian. Jun 22 15:34:15 juliank: Anyway, keep trolling and let Android win :) Jun 22 15:34:24 android wins anyway Jun 22 15:34:29 so you could jsut give up Jun 22 15:34:31 :p Jun 22 15:34:35 andre__: that was my thought Jun 22 15:34:37 alterego: upstart is available in Debian Jun 22 15:34:38 At least you can make an effort. Jun 22 15:34:50 andre__: I'd assume that a fair few Fremantle apps will be ported across Jun 22 15:35:00 certainly that's my intention anyway Jun 22 15:35:00 pabs3: so what? apt is available on fedora, you've just lost me ,.. Jun 22 15:35:11 X-Fade: It's been a Debian derivative and it still is one. Jun 22 15:35:36 how many debian armel packages are used in harmattan? Jun 22 15:35:39 * alterego sighs Jun 22 15:35:46 Who cares what it derives from anyway? Jun 22 15:35:48 It's the API compatibility that is important. Jun 22 15:36:13 It is the closets thing that exists, that is actually a commerical, _real_ product with a MeeGo brand name. Jun 22 15:36:18 alterego: APT is not available on Fedora. There maybe is apt-rpm, which is based on the heavily outdated 0.5 releases and unmaintained and probably a large security hole Jun 22 15:36:26 So stop bitching about the fact it uses debian packaging when it doesn't matter. Jun 22 15:36:32 juliank untrue, there is apt4rpm Jun 22 15:36:44 * lardman heads home, catch you all tomorrow Jun 22 15:36:47 pebcak: apt4rpm is a tool to create repositories for apt-rpm Jun 22 15:36:55 * Jaffa points at http://lwn.net/Articles/448639/ cos he's not going to repeat his arguments again ;-) Jun 22 15:37:01 * alterego sighs Jun 22 15:37:06 juliank I know it from... connective and suse when suse was still suse Jun 22 15:37:10 maybe it was different then Jun 22 15:37:11 :D Jun 22 15:37:18 °connectiva Jun 22 15:37:20 I'm gonna do the washing up now ... Jun 22 15:37:25 :D Jun 22 15:37:46 still, I don't see why it wouldn't be useful to give some devdevices to debian Jun 22 15:37:49 *shrug* Jun 22 15:38:15 pebcak: Create an app to run Debian inside Meego and you may get one Jun 22 15:38:23 pebcak: I applied, would definitely be surprised if I got one though Jun 22 15:38:49 juliank I don't get that logic, sorry Jun 22 15:38:51 pebcak: they were pretty clear about who the devices were for Jun 22 15:39:46 pebcak: The devices are for those willing to develop apps, so if you write an app for running Debian inside MeeGo, you fulfill the requirements Jun 22 15:40:23 i think they want people who will write apps that more than about 10 people actually would want to use Jun 22 15:40:34 which rules me out Jun 22 15:40:41 I'm only interested in an epub reader Jun 22 15:40:49 for tablet ux Jun 22 15:40:50 :D Jun 22 15:40:58 and also 99% of the maemo developer base too Jun 22 15:41:05 qt apps Jun 22 15:41:29 toolkit is irrelevant really Jun 22 15:41:37 no it is not Jun 22 15:41:37 although no doubt they prefer you use Qt Jun 22 15:41:49 ali1234: Download stats on http://maemo.org/downloads/ undermine your trolling Jun 22 15:42:53 85 million downloads? Jun 22 15:42:53 does that include every time ham touches the repository list? Jun 22 15:43:21 If I get one, I write a todo list application and some other stuff Jun 22 15:43:37 hehe Jun 22 15:43:41 Jaffa: i would like to see the top five or ten most downloaded apps, if that is available somewhere Jun 22 15:43:46 "popular" doesn't seem to be that Jun 22 15:44:13 if I don't get one I write my ebookreader anyway, because I have a tablet running meego and it#s the only application I really miss Jun 22 15:44:16 ;P Jun 22 15:44:18 also does that count extras-testing and extras-devel? Jun 22 15:45:00 hi, any OBS experts around? I am setting up a private OBS instance for my company and need a little help with bootstrapping. Jun 22 15:45:15 ivan__: define bootstrapping :) Jun 22 15:45:29 take the boots and a lace end in one hand Jun 22 15:45:38 hehe Jun 22 15:46:03 "bootstrapping" is what documentation calls the bit when you have a working OBS, but can't build anything MeeGo because frash install is openSuse-centric. Jun 22 15:46:06 ivan__: What are you using? The appliance or are you installing it? Jun 22 15:47:37 I have a working installation, but want to be able to build MeeGo packages. This doc shows the process for "bootstrapping" (http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_private_instance_boot_strapping) but I've had no luck so far Jun 22 15:48:15 Jaffa: to put your statistics in context, my personal maemo 5 repo which is not advertised anywhere or used by anyone but me has had over 10000 hits Jun 22 15:49:24 ali1234: But these are completed downloads. Jun 22 15:49:33 Essnetially, I want to run obs_mirror_project to copy the projects from build.pub.meego.com ( i have the login there). However, according to docs, this script has to be modified for MeeGo. I've had a quick look and can't find the modified version. I can try modding myself but there were a few unclear bits Jun 22 15:49:41 these are completed downloads too Jun 22 15:49:53 ali1234: You've verified the IPs, I assume? Jun 22 15:50:05 ali1234, what is the address of your repo? Jun 22 15:50:11 http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/maemo/fremantle/ Jun 22 15:50:19 and if not advertissed then somebody must have been using it Jun 22 15:50:20 ivan__: What do you want to do? Import a MeeGo release? Jun 22 15:50:24 99.999% of the hits are on Packages.gz Jun 22 15:50:41 X-Fade: yes Jun 22 15:50:44 because ham polls it about 10 times for every single operation Jun 22 15:50:45 ali1234: That is just the daily update. That is not a download. Jun 22 15:50:54 ali1234, google says you have all sorts of random hits Jun 22 15:51:03 well, probably Jun 22 15:51:13 ivan__: A simpeler way is to just download a repository and import it. Jun 22 15:51:13 my website is set up in a way that makes it easy to explore and index Jun 22 15:51:42 X-Fade: Sounds great, are ther any instructions how to do this right? Jun 22 15:51:43 X-Fade: so every single one of those 85M is a completed download of a .deb file? Jun 22 15:51:49 i would imagine it would be more difficult to create a website which wasnt Jun 22 15:52:00 ali1234: yes Jun 22 15:52:09 ok, that's all i wanted to know, thanks :) Jun 22 15:52:43 X-Fade, still using Nokia 770 as server? Jun 22 15:53:12 lcuk: We upgraded to some N800s we had collecting dust. Jun 22 15:53:19 :D Jun 22 15:53:28 no wonder download speed increased! Jun 22 15:53:38 anyone know how to monitor GMA500/600 GPU usage? Jun 22 15:54:30 http://www.onedotzero.com/submissions/ Jun 22 15:55:30 X-Fade: Is the process of downloading a repo and importing documented anywhere? Jun 22 15:57:05 nice video with the swipe stuff. how is jitteryness of the animations Jun 22 15:57:24 ivan__: you can draw inspiration from http://wiki.meego.com/User:Stskeeps/10_easy_steps_to_a_local_OBS#Step_6:_Importing_a_MeeGo_release Jun 22 15:57:33 monoid, from videos it looks nice Jun 22 15:57:51 the effects are in sync with finger motions and it seems certainly to be nice Jun 22 15:58:02 * lcuk likes the simplicity Jun 22 15:58:06 lcuk: i have only seen the rendered videos ahh i see some Jun 22 15:58:20 ivan__: What ^^ said. Jun 22 15:58:36 i like the colors Jun 22 15:58:59 hmm no the animations are jittery Jun 22 15:59:22 everybody is just copying liqbase Jun 22 15:59:25 lol Jun 22 15:59:32 lol we know that Jun 22 15:59:55 ivan__: basically: you rsync a release down, make a obs project, dump in the rpms, set a prjconf and make the obs aware of the rpms Jun 22 16:00:05 remoo Jun 22 16:01:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkpoNlsY_40 Nokia N9 MeeGo Smartphone - detailed hands on and walkthrough Jun 22 16:01:09 Stskeeps: Thanks! Jun 22 16:01:11 i love finish accents Jun 22 16:03:49 I prefer Finnish ones Jun 22 16:04:19 ha Jun 22 16:04:27 good job to team nokia / qt / meego! Jun 22 16:05:04 lcuk: You mean the accent of my son Finn? Jun 22 16:05:10 He has a pretty cool accent Jun 22 16:05:34 lol fiferboy you named your son Finn? Jun 22 16:05:41 Tracy wants to call ours Finnlay too Jun 22 16:06:13 lcuk: He is Finnian Jun 22 16:06:29 no fiferboy, he is awesome. Jun 22 16:06:34 * juliank demands that everyone is called the same as himself Jun 22 16:07:24 His favourite book right now is "The Knight's Handbook" which is teaching him how to be a knight Jun 22 16:07:42 :D Jun 22 16:07:52 fiferboy, Jake has started to be a wizard Jun 22 16:08:02 he collects a magic wand everytime we visit the country park Jun 22 16:08:04 lcuk: We are raising a RPG team Jun 22 16:08:12 haha Jun 22 16:11:37 nokia: make a E7 with 800x480 and omap3 - use same case, save money Jun 22 16:12:41 no symbian plz Jun 22 16:12:46 monoid, did you know, screen resolution in some video modes is changable Jun 22 16:12:57 640*360 is good enough for the os it is using Jun 22 16:13:15 I know, I used to run liqbase at pretty much that resolution by default on my n810 ;) Jun 22 16:16:14 854x480 Jun 22 16:16:19 not 800x480 Jun 22 16:16:47 thiago_home, Jun 22 16:16:56 my ideapad runs at 1024*600 internally Jun 22 16:17:09 but when I plug it into the vga out, it changes to 1920*1080 Jun 22 16:17:16 does the n9 video out do similar? Jun 22 16:17:24 no clue Jun 22 16:17:26 can you run apps on big screen Jun 22 16:17:27 * thiago_home doesn't have an n9 Jun 22 16:17:34 well you have some sort of prototype Jun 22 16:17:43 that is familiarly similar Jun 22 16:17:46 I have an N950 proto and I have never plugged it to anything but the USB cable Jun 22 16:17:52 ahh ok Jun 22 16:18:04 lcuk: Well, it's composite video so the "resolution" doesn't quite work like that Jun 22 16:18:13 Jaffa, ok Jun 22 16:18:26 my ideapad is actually frustrating because of it Jun 22 16:18:30 because it does not offer a mirror mode Jun 22 16:18:32 lcuk: It's an analogue signal with a certain amount of bandwidth (but I forget the details) Jun 22 16:18:52 do these OLED displays deteriorate after a few years? Jun 22 16:18:55 the problem isn't ideapad Jun 22 16:19:06 bug 19616 Jun 22 16:19:09 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19616 nor, Low, ---, jerry.yu, NEW, [ideapad] Video Out using VGA cable does not support mirroring Jun 22 16:19:09 the meego netbook is configured to go into "large screen mode" if it detects an external display Jun 22 16:19:20 thiago_home, then my bug is valid! Jun 22 16:19:24 yes Jun 22 16:19:40 but only if this behaviour wasn't intended Jun 22 16:19:42 I think it is Jun 22 16:19:49 it is annoying Jun 22 16:19:54 my other laptops cycle round Jun 22 16:20:03 onscreen/vga-out/mirror Jun 22 16:20:16 the ideapad merely does onscreen/vga-out Jun 22 16:20:30 and it means you cannot give a presentation and tap screen etc and inteact Jun 22 16:20:39 interact Jun 22 16:20:51 the n900 Jun 22 16:20:57 i can do that (if hardware works) Jun 22 16:21:16 plug in the video cable, and what is on the large monitor is what is on the small screen Jun 22 16:21:30 I was going to give a presentation this weekend from my ideapad Jun 22 16:21:47 s/this/last/ Jun 22 16:21:54 lcuk: funily enough i had the opposite problem on windows with the ideapad Jun 22 16:22:15 probably because it's windows home super basic Jun 22 16:22:27 i don't know Jun 22 16:22:32 but it won't allow you to have indepentent outputs Jun 22 16:22:32 my ideapad is a meego machine Jun 22 16:22:41 it came with meego installed *grin* Jun 22 16:22:43 the maps look very nice Jun 22 16:22:55 lol, no it didn't Jun 22 16:23:02 ali1234, yes it did Jun 22 16:23:12 from the moment I powered it up, I saw meego on the screen Jun 22 16:23:21 so who did you get to install meego for you? Jun 22 16:23:23 just because I had some usb key inside it when I switched it on Jun 22 16:23:35 I have never seen another OS on my ideapad Jun 22 16:23:45 hence, it is 100% a meego machine :P Jun 22 16:23:58 twisted logic is twisted Jun 22 16:24:05 * lcuk inserts key into car to start it Jun 22 16:24:07 you watched the installer do it's stuff same as i did Jun 22 16:24:14 * lcuk inserted key into ideapad to start it Jun 22 16:24:23 yeah but it wasn't a windows installer Jun 22 16:24:24 or debian Jun 22 16:24:27 or ubuntu Jun 22 16:24:29 actually i watched it twice because i hit a bug the first time Jun 22 16:24:30 it was meego. Jun 22 16:25:18 so you had to install the usb key? Jun 22 16:25:25 nice ability to 'bookmark' a webpage to your apps Jun 22 16:25:28 or was that plugged in too when you got it? Jun 22 16:25:51 ali1234, not sure, I inserted the key when I unpacked it all Jun 22 16:25:53 there are photos :P Jun 22 16:26:05 so you installed the usb key into the usb port Jun 22 16:26:16 inserted the key to start it yeah Jun 22 16:27:09 no different than having to connect the umbilical cord from a new ipod Jun 22 16:27:26 lol Jun 22 16:27:51 man, harmattan is getting some pretty killer reviews Jun 22 16:27:59 link markatto ? Jun 22 16:28:17 monoid: check out engadget Jun 22 16:28:36 watching the demos from singapore atm Jun 22 16:28:44 monoid: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/editorial-dear-nokia-you-cannot-be-serious/ Jun 22 16:29:19 Stskeeps: The OBS import instructions work for 1.1, but 1.2 repo layout seems quite different. Is there a 1.2 import script by any chance? Jun 22 16:30:16 thank you markatto ! i ask the same! Jun 22 16:30:23 elop is a very bad man Jun 22 16:31:04 why? If people in America want and will buy Nokia WP devices, why should they be prevented from doing so? Jun 22 16:31:27 and if folks want to have business class Symbian devices in Europe or wherever why shouldn't they? Jun 22 16:31:45 and if people want to drool over n9 etc and buy them, why shouldn't they? Jun 22 16:32:15 to whom are you asking this? Jun 22 16:32:17 lcuk: we *don't* want WP7 or Symbian devices ;) Jun 22 16:32:24 YOU don't Jun 22 16:32:30 buy plenty of people do Jun 22 16:32:40 my missus still wants a real keypad Jun 22 16:32:41 iirc wp7 is selling pretty badly Jun 22 16:33:05 I am sure Microsoft can get it right Jun 22 16:33:13 just like early maemo devices sold badly Jun 22 16:33:20 symbian is pretty much non-existant in the USA, but I can't speak for the rest of the world Jun 22 16:33:28 actually few people go out of their way to buy a WP7 Jun 22 16:33:36 * ShadowJK 'd want a pocket-portable device capable of streaming radio (let's broadly say "any" format) over headphone, fmtx or nluetooth a2dp for a minimum of 8 hours on battery power Jun 22 16:33:38 not like they do with iphone and android Jun 22 16:34:00 I don't know a single person with a WP7 phone Jun 22 16:34:03 any os would be fine for that single-purpose device Jun 22 16:34:15 markatto, considering windows phone is so badly slated Jun 22 16:34:21 many people are emulating the metro ui Jun 22 16:34:22 markatto: I saw someone last week with one! Jun 22 16:34:27 ... and that's all Jun 22 16:34:32 i was playing with one the other night Jun 22 16:34:36 very pretty and slick Jun 22 16:34:48 of course, I'm also the only person outside of meego meetups that I know with an N900 :) Jun 22 16:34:48 is metro what they call that awful UI where nothing fits on the screen properly? Jun 22 16:34:51 i also played with an n8 emulating metro Jun 22 16:35:02 ali1234, look at early liqbase Jun 22 16:35:09 early liqbase? Jun 22 16:35:15 EVERYBODY said "why don't your captions fit on the buttons" Jun 22 16:35:17 ;) Jun 22 16:35:17 lcuk: software patent! Jun 22 16:35:20 go troll! Jun 22 16:35:24 ;> Jun 22 16:35:29 i don't honestly see the appeal of WP7 at all Jun 22 16:35:38 wmarone_, i found out yesterday europe does not have software patents Jun 22 16:35:38 i spent a lot of time with it Jun 22 16:35:46 lcuk: you can still file in the US! Jun 22 16:35:52 it's got a slick outer shell, but there's nothing underneath. Jun 22 16:35:53 how this TSCHAKeee - for job? Jun 22 16:35:55 nothing. Jun 22 16:35:57 yeah perhaps next time i go over Jun 22 16:36:04 but I would prefer to just make all my software work Jun 22 16:36:06 monoid: software development. Jun 22 16:36:10 than spend time faffing with patents Jun 22 16:36:15 lcuk: I am being facetious, of course ;p Jun 22 16:36:18 unless there is a c->patent converter Jun 22 16:37:12 what gets me though, and i am really trying to give Elop the benefit of the doubt here, why did he jettison the platform, when we wound up getting such an awesome device out of the N9? Jun 22 16:37:37 I think it can be summed up with two words: "because Microsoft" Jun 22 16:37:39 TSCHAKeee: because he's a microsoft plant Jun 22 16:37:45 TSCHAKeee, look at it another way Jun 22 16:37:48 the whole device screams "balanced" Jun 22 16:37:59 I know, my paranoid side is screaming microsoft plant Jun 22 16:38:03 ALL teams have gone into overdrive and we are seeing some of the best work to come out of Nokia for generations! :P Jun 22 16:38:07 it looks great. now i want a wallet for it with a keyboard Jun 22 16:38:34 for me, the N900 was the device i spent 20 years waiting for. Jun 22 16:38:46 and they topped that spectacularly Jun 22 16:38:56 the n9 complement its TSCHAKeee Jun 22 16:38:59 it does not replace it Jun 22 16:39:19 it is a pretty sibling Jun 22 16:39:22 *nod* I see the N950 is the complement here, too bad it will not be publically released. Jun 22 16:39:29 lcuk, yes it replaces it. Jun 22 16:39:41 GeneralAntilles, no, it does not. Jun 22 16:39:46 Considering that they don't manufacture N900s anymore Jun 22 16:39:49 Yes, it replaces it. Jun 22 16:39:51 it misses out on one important thing for me: stylus input. Jun 22 16:39:56 meh Jun 22 16:39:59 i could care less Jun 22 16:40:03 lcuk, that's irrelevant to whether or not it replaces it. Jun 22 16:40:03 really Jun 22 16:40:19 GeneralAntilles, I can have both on my desk Jun 22 16:40:20 nice youtubes of the n950 Jun 22 16:40:22 i've used stylus PDAs since BEFORE the fucking Newton came out Jun 22 16:40:23 TSCHAKeee: so you care some :) Jun 22 16:40:29 i want one :( Jun 22 16:40:43 lcuk, good for you. That's irrelevant to everybody else. Jun 22 16:40:45 and after 20 some odd years of trying to use a flat LCD screen like a wirebound notebook Jun 22 16:40:52 i came to one inescapable conclusion Jun 22 16:40:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k hands-on N950 (czech) Jun 22 16:40:55 that was fucking retarded. Jun 22 16:40:58 GeneralAntilles, getting a C5 too Jun 22 16:41:08 which has stlyus input and runs symbian Jun 22 16:41:10 ahem. Language people Jun 22 16:41:31 sigh. Jun 22 16:41:36 I really don't have a profanity filter, just weird timing ;) Jun 22 16:41:47 i have to deal with political correctness everywhere in this crazy country Jun 22 16:41:48 hey DawnFoster Jun 22 16:41:49 DawnFoster, who do I prod about bug 19616 Jun 22 16:41:52 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19616 nor, Low, ---, jerry.yu, NEW, [ideapad] Video Out using VGA cable does not support mirroring Jun 22 16:41:53 I have to deal with it in HERE TOO?! Jun 22 16:42:02 couldn't they make a few thousand n950s and sell them to people who beg and promise not to cause trouble? Jun 22 16:42:05 i've had enough. Jun 22 16:42:59 free speech is dead, and we all killed it. Jun 22 16:43:02 later. Jun 22 16:43:16 Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Jun 22 16:43:27 lcuk - give it a couple of days, and if you don't get a response ping me next week Jun 22 16:43:41 ok will do, thanks Jun 22 16:43:41 lcuk: c5-03? Jun 22 16:43:50 ali1234, yeah, what do you know about it Jun 22 16:44:09 not much. i didn't realise anyone was still making phones with resistive screens Jun 22 16:44:15 well, except those fake iphone guys Jun 22 16:44:24 i need it for sketching Jun 22 16:44:43 and it gives me some incentive to port liqbase sketches to qt Jun 22 16:45:09 is so pretty :( n950 Jun 22 16:45:36 screen looks a bit dark in the video i linked Jun 22 16:45:54 personally i want a C7 with meego on it Jun 22 16:46:02 lo Jun 22 16:46:04 don't care about N9 Jun 22 16:46:15 c7 with 800x480 ok Jun 22 16:46:46 only 250 n950s... :( Jun 22 16:47:11 ivan__: it's fairly similar, that's why i said inspiration :) Jun 22 16:49:18 man, the zeiss autofocus lens ++ Jun 22 16:49:30 monoid, can youplease confirm Jun 22 16:49:31 wide angle glory hallelujah Jun 22 16:49:40 sorry what now Jun 22 16:49:46 you do have both hands on the keyboard whilst typing all this don't you? Jun 22 16:49:52 lol Jun 22 16:50:34 i don't want a candy bar phone :( i want a keyboard like n900 Jun 22 16:55:30 only 250 n950 for the meego community right? Jun 22 16:55:33 not overall? Jun 22 16:55:41 :( :( Jun 22 16:55:57 #meego: Total of 491 nicks Jun 22 16:56:01 monoid: Error: "meego:" is not a valid command. Jun 22 16:56:08 ok boss Jun 22 16:56:35 #kitten Jun 22 16:56:46 #kitten: Jun 22 16:56:52 CosmoHill: Error: "kitten" is not a valid command. Jun 22 16:56:59 CosmoHill: Error: "kitten:" is not a valid command. Jun 22 16:57:04 you're slow Jun 22 16:57:13 thiago_home: how many euros do i need to pay you to 'lose' your n950? Jun 22 16:57:25 :)_ Jun 22 16:57:34 hello CosmoHill Jun 22 16:57:43 for 100 € I'll mug him Jun 22 16:57:54 salut niala Jun 22 16:59:22 monoid: sorry, no chance. I'll give it back on Friday. Jun 22 16:59:37 i have unreleased game client for sdl Jun 22 17:09:30 Does MeeGo have the Mono framework? I'm a developer for a C# app that we currently run on Ubuntu but want to port to meego Jun 22 17:09:43 use qt Jun 22 17:11:27 monoid: Does that mean MeeGo doesn't have Mono? Jun 22 17:11:50 mono is not part of meego, IIRC Jun 22 17:13:24 wow ssvb in finland Jun 22 17:14:12 how is the video accelerated in n9 Jun 22 17:14:12 shlevy, I think Mono exists in the MeeGo repository, but it is not part of the default install Jun 22 17:14:53 Venemo: Is there an easy way for me to check for myself what version and such are available? Jun 22 17:18:14 shlevy, I'm not that familiar with the MeeGo infrastructure, but: http://www.google.hu/search?q=mono+site%3Arepo.meego.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a Jun 22 17:18:56 maybe someone more knowledgeable will come along and enlighten us Jun 22 17:26:23 shlevy: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.2.0/repos/oss/ia32/packages/i586/ Jun 22 17:26:25 look for mono Jun 22 17:27:08 mono-core-2.6.3-2.17.i586.rpm Jun 22 17:27:11 so yes there is mono Jun 22 17:28:56 shlevy: there is mono for some of the netbook apps; but anything but netbook and your app will look very out of place Jun 22 17:29:05 (and it's not guaranteed that mono will remain there) Jun 22 17:29:17 arjan: Ok, thanks Jun 22 17:32:14 *groan* at the pun I just posted on twitter Jun 22 18:03:09 arjan : if mono goes doesn't that mean banshee goes too? (i won't miss it, but... it's part of the netbook ux) Jun 22 18:03:47 hopefully Vala isn't going to get the axe ... that would be sad. Jun 22 18:04:37 npm: vala is just a dev-tool that translates code to c and then compiles Jun 22 18:04:41 npm: i thought mono was never part of the official spec Jun 22 18:04:43 mono is a whole framework Jun 22 18:04:56 um, i know, since i've programmed in vala Jun 22 18:04:57 that is, it's only there because of banshee Jun 22 18:05:06 however, i was happy to see that it's in meego Jun 22 18:05:08 (which i personally don't to be part of my OS)... Jun 22 18:05:38 means i don't have to port http://code.google.com/p/spekle/ Jun 22 18:06:31 yes, mono is there because of banshee. i think porting amarok to meego makes more sense Jun 22 18:06:47 or something new Jun 22 18:06:47 * CosmoHill wonders if he should use JFS or XFS Jun 22 18:07:00 yeah or somethign new that has good functionality Jun 22 18:07:03 like tomahawk Jun 22 18:07:14 * npm googles Jun 22 18:07:16 * thiago_home has never used that though Jun 22 18:07:26 two good friends of mine work on it Jun 22 18:08:29 thiago_home: http://tomahawk-player.org/ looks insteresting Jun 22 18:09:02 what we really need is a C++ Qt-based "Core" for media player and QML example wrapper Jun 22 18:09:10 that can be targetted to difft uxes etc Jun 22 18:10:46 CosmoHill jfs Jun 22 18:12:34 what I should do when I have time / not being lazy, great a 10GB partition on my hard drive and benchmark different file systems Jun 22 18:14:49 thiago_home: stopped dead in trax by meego building tomahawk: "Phonon version 4.5.0 or higher is required, you have version 4.4.0" Jun 22 18:15:02 http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Lem to the rescue :-) Jun 22 18:15:52 (now at least i have a choice of which system i want to make noncompliant by pulling in fedora packages) Jun 22 18:17:50 * alterego wishes Nokia would publish the manual sdk instructions, I get bored looking through python installation apps :) Jun 22 18:19:33 doh, fedora 14's still at phonon 4.4, and fedora 15 RPM's are not a happy combo w/ meego Jun 22 18:20:06 anybody built tomahawk for meego before i waste more time Jun 22 18:20:17 yeah, I wish meego sdk worked on fedora 15 Jun 22 18:20:26 * hiemanshu hates having to use the Ubuntu VM Jun 22 18:20:40 no i'm talking about fedora 32 bit rpms on meego. Jun 22 18:20:49 makes compiling massive apps a lot easier Jun 22 18:20:54 ah Jun 22 18:21:03 (cheating, but who cares) Jun 22 18:22:12 also good for working around problems: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16879 Jun 22 18:22:15 Bug 16879 nor, Low, ---, nick.bao, NEW, hunspell dumps core with default english dictionary, and is installed with no default dictionary Jun 22 18:22:23 bug 12345 Jun 22 18:22:26 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12345 nor, Medium, ---, elias.luttinen, NEW, Requirement: Parameter errors reported to Publishers Jun 22 18:31:03 hello Jun 22 18:38:50 hi Hei_Ku Jun 22 18:40:55 I'm looking for the maintainer or someone responsible of the libpurple package in MeeGo Jun 22 18:41:09 there's a patch we need for it in meego 1.2 Jun 22 18:41:19 * Stskeeps checks the last list Jun 22 18:43:12 Hei_Ku: closest you can get is anas nashif - best to just send a package update Jun 22 18:43:35 ok Jun 22 18:43:57 doesn't have a maintainer noted, so Jun 22 18:44:45 Stskeeps: thanks. I'll try anas Jun 22 18:45:07 he was the last one packaging, so Jun 22 19:02:51 dneary, I remember you pinged me earlier today Jun 22 19:03:01 andre__, Yes Jun 22 19:03:02 dneary, I don't remember the question (if you asked it) but I remember that a related answer/comment could be lbt's proposal to link the package database grouping and the Bugzilla grouping Jun 22 19:03:24 It was to find out how realistic mu idea of including a gitorious link for every module in MeeGo Bugzilla was Jun 22 19:03:29 ah! Jun 22 19:03:32 I didn't ask the question Jun 22 19:03:51 s/gitorious/source code Jun 22 19:03:53 now if that information was stored in the package DB grouping as a mandatory field for every package that could fix it Jun 22 19:04:05 (and if that linking was implemented of course) Jun 22 19:04:13 andre__, It's not quite that straightforward for something like the package manager Jun 22 19:04:16 lbt proposed it at the EM BoF in SF Jun 22 19:04:33 After digging into it, it turns out that the error, and the error message, are passed up from PackageKit Jun 22 19:04:38 Which sucks a bit Jun 22 19:04:51 Will ping hughsie to tell him the error message sucks Jun 22 19:04:57 ah Jun 22 19:27:31 hey guys Jun 22 19:27:34 how can I acquire a Nokia N950? Jun 22 19:27:50 read quim's blog Jun 22 19:29:11 here: http://t.co/ASlYRoN Jun 22 19:29:33 250 is :/ Jun 22 19:30:50 so they manufactured only 250 units, and that's it? Jun 22 19:31:00 nah, 250 for meego developer device programme Jun 22 19:31:05 Venemo: no, just 250 given out to MeeGo community developers. Jun 22 19:31:29 ah, I understand Jun 22 19:31:34 will it be available for purchase Jun 22 19:31:39 No Jun 22 19:31:45 It's a developer device only. Jun 22 19:31:56 s/given/loaned/ Jun 22 19:31:59 But you can apply for it through meego.com (which I recommend you do) Jun 22 19:32:05 so how do I acquire one if I don't get it through the developer device programme? Jun 22 19:32:08 Or you can apply for 'one through Nokia developer launch pad. Jun 22 19:32:22 Venemo: simple answer, you don't. Jun 22 19:32:28 More complicated answer, earn it :P Jun 22 19:32:46 Cop out commercial answer, develop apps for Ovi :P Jun 22 19:32:57 what if I actually WANT to keep such a device? Jun 22 19:32:57 if this goes on, it'll end up being all lord of the flies Jun 22 19:33:17 Venemo: when the N9 is released, the 250 selected N950 owners get to choose to keep or trade, as I understand it. Jun 22 19:33:34 really? Jun 22 19:33:42 That is what Quim said yesterday. Jun 22 19:33:53 that is very nice, but the N950 is vastly superior than N9 (bigger screen, keyboard, etc) Jun 22 19:34:11 Not vastly superior, no AMOLED etc. Jun 22 19:34:13 Well, they're pretty much the same, except you're kinda trading a keyboard for NFC Jun 22 19:34:16 Personally I want the NFC Jun 22 19:34:19 Still quite clearly better overall, I'd say. Jun 22 19:34:36 I'll keep the N950, to be unique and buy an N9 Jun 22 19:34:38 what the heck is NFC? Jun 22 19:34:45 ~nfc Jun 22 19:34:48 I don't really get the point of NFC. Jun 22 19:34:50 Near Field Comms Jun 22 19:34:58 It's in all the phones now-a-days ;) Jun 22 19:35:02 How is it better than BT, especially if BT pairing is required before it can be used? Jun 22 19:35:07 where is infobot when I need him? Jun 22 19:35:13 Tronic: BT has nothing to do with NFC Jun 22 19:35:34 I'll keep the N950 || which part of loan didn't you get? :P Jun 22 19:35:34 different animals, indeed Jun 22 19:35:38 The headset demo in Singapore using BT and NFC was an example of what can be done using both. Jun 22 19:35:53 Some site said that BT pairing is required before the first use of NFC but maybe they had wrong information. Jun 22 19:35:55 MohammadAG: which part of "You can keep it or trade it with N9" didn't you get? Jun 22 19:36:02 alterego, so, you can keep the N950 even though it's a loaner, or you can buy it at the end, or what? Jun 22 19:36:24 Venemo: No, when the N9 is release, you have a choice of keeping the N950, or trading it in for an N9. Jun 22 19:36:36 I don't know how I can say that in a clearer way .. Jun 22 19:36:40 alterego, oh really? damn /me walks away :P Jun 22 19:36:40 alterego, so this is not a loan after all Jun 22 19:36:52 Well, it's a tentative loan. Jun 22 19:36:54 Where are USB and headphone connectors located on N950? Jun 22 19:37:06 Tronic: on the sides Jun 22 19:37:15 Similar to N900 from what I can tell. Jun 22 19:37:24 It appears that both are on top end of the phone on N9, which sucks if you want to talk while charging. Jun 22 19:37:30 all the loaner N900s had to be returned afaik Jun 22 19:37:35 Gotta find an NFC reader I can use for the door locks. Jun 22 19:37:52 alterego: N900 has the same problem, it'd be better if they were both on the bottom end or if at least the charger was. Jun 22 19:37:53 Venemo: sure, but this isn't the N900 and this isn't maemo.org Jun 22 19:38:01 sure Jun 22 19:38:05 Tronic: maybe, I don't really care :P Jun 22 19:38:23 Venemo: we never had N810 loaners for instance Jun 22 19:38:31 mhm Jun 22 19:38:32 And I had to pay full price for my N900 .. Jun 22 19:38:42 * alterego kicks stupid maemo.org karma Jun 22 19:39:03 I did so too, but at the time I did it because I thought it was a good phone, not because I wanted to develop for it Jun 22 19:39:15 later on I found out that Qt development is fun, and the adventure began Jun 22 19:39:18 Meh, I did for both reasons ;) Jun 22 19:39:46 well, at the time, I wasn't familiar with Qt or Linux or anything like this at all :) Jun 22 19:39:54 I was a .NET developer Jun 22 19:40:03 Yes, and look at you now :) Jun 22 19:40:10 hehe, thanks :) Jun 22 19:40:22 Seriously though, you've got a very good chance of getting one imo Jun 22 19:40:25 people, I didn't get it. What can I do to get/buy an N950? Jun 22 19:40:37 List all your maemo contributions in the text box where it says "HAve you done anything for maemo" :P Jun 22 19:40:50 thank you alterego Jun 22 19:40:54 rafael2k: Are you a software developer that works on maemo or meego? Jun 22 19:41:00 The marketing of N900 failed. I only bought one Sep 2010 and found out what an awesome device it was. If someone had told me before that I can have essentially a phone-sized Linux laptop that also has a good phone and UI that actually works well in that size, I would had been in the queue in front of the store the day it became available. Jun 22 19:41:06 there is one thing I still don't quite get. Jun 22 19:41:06 list? I linked to my git and maemo.org pages Jun 22 19:41:26 MohammadAG: I'm sure that will suffice. Jun 22 19:41:37 Venemo: yes? Jun 22 19:41:40 alterego: yes Jun 22 19:41:58 rafael2k: then apply for the developer program on meego.com Jun 22 19:42:10 on the application form, there is an entry "Project Name" and "Project URL", but I don't have a specific project in mind that I would work on. Instead, I want to work on various stuff and ideas Jun 22 19:42:26 Every now and then people came over to an open-source project I work on, to ask for a N900 port, but I had no idea. My only thoughts were that it was some mobile device and that porting to it would be really difficult. Jun 22 19:42:52 where this form is? Jun 22 19:43:00 Ulf_: i may have a hunch on the lockup thing, currently rebuilding arm glibc to verify it Jun 22 19:43:13 alterego, what do you think? Jun 22 19:43:17 Venemo: pick your most impressive one ;) Jun 22 19:43:24 I just hope that MeeGo devices get pushed properly so that people actually know what they are and why they want one :) Jun 22 19:43:27 But also note that you have a lot of things you wanna port across in the bottom box. Jun 22 19:43:46 alterego, I'm thinking of writing "Various" into the project name field and link to a page/blog entry on which I write a list of projects I want to make Jun 22 19:43:54 Tronic: I don't think this device is the same kind of thing as the N900, this really is marketted at normal users. Jun 22 19:43:58 It has MMS ffs :P Jun 22 19:44:32 I consider N9 an iPhone killer. Maybe not a phone I'd like to replace my N900 with, but with a phone that I would pay the full price for even if I got iPhone for free. Jun 22 19:45:01 *but a phone Jun 22 19:45:17 anyway, I definitely don't wish to pay for the N950/N9, as it's not worth it IMO, but I would very much like to develop for it (alongside the N900 of course) Jun 22 19:45:28 alterego: I've had fMMS installed on N900 for ages, never sent or received any MMS, I think. Jun 22 19:45:44 Tronic: would you class yourself as a normal user? ;) Jun 22 19:45:52 I've never MMS'd either, I don't even have fMMS instaled. Jun 22 19:46:21 I never installed fMMS, and guess what, I've never needed it Jun 22 19:46:38 alterego: I suppose that I am your average Joe adult user. Jun 22 19:46:39 Venemo: I installed it once to get some pics of your mom naked :P Jun 22 19:47:08 alterego, :D Jun 22 19:47:30 what's with the your mom jokes around here lately? :P Jun 22 19:47:43 MohammadAG: I don't know, I've never stopped talking about yours .. Jun 22 19:47:45 http://www.smarthome.com/7434/Visonic-VXS-5-Proximity-Access-Control-System/p.aspx Jun 22 19:47:47 yes, please keep it clean and according to irc guidelines Jun 22 19:47:48 Looks about right. Jun 22 19:48:05 Heh, nice Jun 22 19:49:29 GeneralAntilles: Actually NFC? Jun 22 19:49:43 * MohammadAG stabs alterego :p Jun 22 19:49:54 Ithere is no one 'NFC' Jun 22 19:50:25 Jaffa, RFID. Can program arbitrary tags in. Jun 22 19:50:28 So I believe it should work. Jun 22 19:51:25 Many of the fun potential apps of a NFC device in your phone are strongly ameliorated by the fact that it has a battery which runs fown Jun 22 19:52:17 aren't there induction chargers ? Jun 22 19:52:30 The n9 I mean Jun 22 19:53:09 would be cool if it had one Jun 22 19:53:24 Induction chargers are not magic. Jun 22 19:53:37 no but you have less trouble with connectors Jun 22 19:53:44 They waste energy, and heat the phone up noticably over what it might otherwise be. Jun 22 19:53:51 sure Jun 22 19:53:51 The right fix for that is a dock connector. Jun 22 19:53:53 But... Jun 22 19:54:25 i'm thinking about harsher environments, like boats Jun 22 19:54:35 old nokias had GREAT docks Jun 22 19:54:53 A device like a phone is hard to truly seal properly. Jun 22 19:55:16 Basically the only way you can really do it is to pack the whole thing with silicone gel. Jun 22 19:55:18 nokia has some ruggedized models Jun 22 19:55:22 yes it would get bulkier Jun 22 19:55:27 Which is an option. Jun 22 19:55:37 And connectors get nasty Jun 22 19:55:42 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n950-pictures-a-gallerys-worth-of-meego-to-tell-the-stor/ Jun 22 19:55:44 what about the golden shellback stuff Jun 22 19:55:47 oop- Jun 22 19:55:48 contact plates Jun 22 19:56:05 I love the video of the BBC journalist, at the expo, with a guy demoing 'unbreakable' phones. Jun 22 19:56:20 lcuk: probably same thing I referred to? Jun 22 19:56:20 Of course - there's the obligatory fishtank to show waterproofness. Jun 22 19:56:35 SpeedEvil, :D Jun 22 19:56:40 he whacks it on the corner Jun 22 19:56:41 So - the BBC journalist is asked 'do whatever you want to it' - and he starts hitting the screen on the corner of the fishtank. Jun 22 19:56:43 Oops. Jun 22 19:56:47 :D:D Jun 22 19:57:02 Stskeeps, cool! Jun 22 19:57:07 similar is the guy holding the rare expensive irreplacable wax disks Jun 22 19:58:11 SpeedEvil, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnsizkVjGm8 Jun 22 19:59:28 alterego, you know, my problem with all this stuff is that I still haven't managed to get a job in Qt... :( Jun 22 19:59:36 Heh Jun 22 19:59:47 I just read qgil's forum post. Jun 22 19:59:49 alterego, I got a WP7 project recently... ehh. Jun 22 19:59:56 Apparently they're more after app devs than platform devs. Jun 22 19:59:58 * alterego is screwed. Jun 22 20:01:31 So, it's not a reward scheme, it's a freakin' app grab. Jun 22 20:01:32 * alterego sobs Jun 22 20:01:43 columbus is an app :p Jun 22 20:01:59 Sure it is, Jun 22 20:02:02 columbus is a feature rich framework :P Jun 22 20:02:05 errr app Jun 22 20:02:08 Heh Jun 22 20:02:18 lcuk, do you have an N950 yet? :) Jun 22 20:02:26 lcuk: you forgot, "unmaintained" :P Jun 22 20:02:36 Harmattan would change that for me somewhat. Jun 22 20:02:38 still helped get on with Qt :p Jun 22 20:02:39 my IRC window looks a lot like an xterm, causing me to type int eh wrong window Jun 22 20:02:46 Venemo, I have no device with a number over 10 Jun 22 20:02:57 * alterego chuckles Jun 22 20:03:02 lcuk, you have an N9 then? Jun 22 20:03:10 HE has an N00 Jun 22 20:03:32 aaahhhh...... Jun 22 20:03:52 lcuk: you should have said 1 :P Jun 22 20:04:06 well I tohught binary 2 was enough of a hint ;) Jun 22 20:04:11 dont just accept the manufacturers numbers, just relabel it Jun 22 20:04:12 *thought Jun 22 20:04:13 so the final name is "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan" Jun 22 20:04:14 Heh Jun 22 20:04:23 Venemo: seems that way. Jun 22 20:04:35 Though they should have done a better s/maemo/meego/g .. Jun 22 20:04:58 alterego, I thought that LF will not allow them to release something called MeeGo which is not MeeGo compliant... Jun 22 20:05:24 anyway, it's nicer than what I expected. Jun 22 20:05:34 Venemo: No-one ever said that. Jun 22 20:06:01 Jaffa, hm? Jun 22 20:06:02 even if someone did say that, someone would need to bring up the issue with the LF Jun 22 20:06:05 Yeah, it's just a few letters man .. Jun 22 20:06:21 And even if some one did that, the LF would have to give a scht ; Jun 22 20:06:49 lol Jun 22 20:06:54 big manufactureres are really really equal Jun 22 20:06:55 I don't care this much. Jun 22 20:07:03 I'm a little unclear on what the recommended development style is for meego applications, is QT Quick/QML prefered? QtMobile? Jun 22 20:07:08 not just plain equal like you and me Jun 22 20:07:33 Elleo: QML Jun 22 20:08:05 okay; I took a look at QML, but after installing the SDK couldn't find see much in the way of standardised widgets, just a handful of very basic types with the documentation seeming to imply they should be extended to create even simple things like buttons Jun 22 20:08:10 am I missing something? Jun 22 20:08:23 surely everyone shouldn't be creating new button styles with each application, etc. Jun 22 20:08:54 Elleo, yes, there are various projects aimed at creating a unifying widget framework for QML, none of which (to my knowledge) are mature enough to justify using QML at all Jun 22 20:08:55 Elleo: for actual widgets -> QtComponents. Jun 22 20:08:56 Elleo: that's why we have meego-ux-components .. Jun 22 20:09:17 alterego: is that not distributed with the SDK? Jun 22 20:09:26 there will be a wide array of choices for standardized components Jun 22 20:09:28 or just not preconfigured for use in the meego version of qtcreator? Jun 22 20:09:39 however, you should really use MTF for Harmattan, or is it obsolete now on Harmattan too? Jun 22 20:09:50 Venemo: there are many reasons to use QML already. Existing apps prove it. Jun 22 20:09:57 they don't have native look-and-feel yet, granted. Jun 22 20:10:01 Which SDK? Jun 22 20:10:01 some apps don't require that. Jun 22 20:10:20 alterego: 1.2 Jun 22 20:10:30 Harmattan has qt components which themes correctly. Jun 22 20:10:41 thiago_home, I'm not saying there are not any reasons for QML, just that IMO it isn't worth it yet. but I'm all for the idea of a declarative GUI, for sure. Jun 22 20:10:43 Elleo: that's a version number, not an SDK name .. Jun 22 20:11:04 alterego: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Docs/1.2 Jun 22 20:11:05 Venemo: well, I'm disagreeing and saying that IMO it's worth it for some cases already. Jun 22 20:11:17 it's simply listed as being the meego sdk 1.2 Jun 22 20:11:19 Elleo: what are you targeting? Tablet, Handset? Jun 22 20:11:34 alterego: handset, ideally I'd like it to run across both maemo and meego Jun 22 20:11:46 thiago_home, for the cases that don't require nativ look & feel, sure Jun 22 20:11:47 Elleo: then you're best bet is QML Jun 22 20:11:59 And custom widgets .. Jun 22 20:12:24 I assume the meego-ux widgets will work under maemo? Jun 22 20:12:33 if they're just simple qml definitions? Jun 22 20:12:35 In a manner .. Jun 22 20:12:38 harmattan already includes some apps using qtcomponents. Jun 22 20:12:40 Well, not all of them are. Jun 22 20:13:29 pvuorela: right, but qtcomponents isn't standard Jun 22 20:13:42 well I'll have a play with meego-ux-components for now Jun 22 20:13:54 see if I can get something using them running on my n900 under maemo Jun 22 20:14:03 thiago_home: it should be standard for Qt ;) Jun 22 20:14:14 alterego: unfortunately, it isn't Jun 22 20:14:21 yet? Jun 22 20:14:25 Or never? Jun 22 20:14:25 because we didn't manage to make it work everywhere (namely, MeeGo), it can't be Jun 22 20:14:42 that needs to be fixed first Jun 22 20:14:43 Erm .. Jun 22 20:14:49 only then can it be part of Qt Jun 22 20:14:52 Surely Qt is upstream. Jun 22 20:15:01 Screw MeeGo UX Components .. Jun 22 20:15:09 doesn't count if you don't take the requirements of MeeGo into consideration in your design phase Jun 22 20:15:14 Just make sure they're better, which wont be that hard .. Jun 22 20:15:26 I'm guessing all the nice GTK Hildon stuff doesn't ship as standard with meego? ;) Jun 22 20:15:49 Elleo: no, and HArmattan doesn't even have backward compatibility any more I don't think. Jun 22 20:15:57 alterego: tbh, "works" is more important than "better" Jun 22 20:16:06 but if both work, then the better one wins Jun 22 20:16:16 Elleo, GTK Hildon is not "standard with meego" Jun 22 20:16:52 pity, I know my way around gtk :/ Jun 22 20:17:06 all the qt tools and infrastructure is something of a mystery to me still Jun 22 20:20:25 hmm, seems the meego-ux stuff is very dependant on other meego things Jun 22 20:21:44 I think Gtk is in the MeeGo repo, but not installed by default Jun 22 20:22:09 I'm guessing this'll pretty much rule out symbian portability of qml stuff too? Jun 22 20:22:28 thiago_home: What's the gap between it running on Harmattan and running on MeeGo? Jun 22 20:22:39 Elleo: Qt Components works on Symbian, as does raw QML Jun 22 20:22:48 Elleo: My QML app works on Maemo, Harmattan & Symbian Jun 22 20:22:53 Jaffa: of the components? there's a report I had made, let me find it. Jun 22 20:23:00 okay, guess I'll go with Qt Components then Jun 22 20:25:37 Jaffa: http://wiki.qtlabs.org.br/projects/qt-components Jun 22 20:25:58 thiago_home: Thanks Jun 22 20:26:42 thiago_home: So, say the bold Button - is that saying there's something commonisable? Jun 22 20:27:08 Jaffa: I'm not sure of the details, tbh Jun 22 20:27:26 the point was to find what was different, what was commonisable and what was platform-specific (i.e., shouldn't be there) Jun 22 20:27:35 the people doing the work should be able to understand that Jun 22 20:27:39 thiago_home: That'll be handy. I'm sure my first app'll have some kind of abstraction between MeeGo UX Components and Qt Components, using the bits I want. Jun 22 20:27:55 thiago_home: "shouldn't be there" - so is this describing problems with Qt Components or MeeGo UX Components? ;-) Jun 22 20:29:14 Jaffa: both Jun 22 20:29:17 is meego summer release out? Jun 22 20:29:20 thiago_home: Fair enough Jun 22 20:29:23 rafael2k: Delayed a day Jun 22 20:29:33 Jaffa: thanks Jun 22 20:29:56 thiago_home: I'm sure we'll see some movement on it from the community app devs the moment people start getting N950s and have N8s, N900s and ExoPCs they want to target too. Jun 22 20:30:25 and I've got a team ready to do the work of harmonisation Jun 22 20:30:31 * TSCHAKeee is just sticking to standard Qt Quick Jun 22 20:30:31 I just need to find the funding for them Jun 22 20:30:37 and doing my own components Jun 22 20:32:13 thiago_home, as with many teams. Jun 22 20:32:31 that word sounds good though Jun 22 20:38:04 will Harmattan run on da good ol' N900? Jun 22 20:38:17 no Jun 22 20:39:18 :( Jun 22 20:39:30 but MeeGo itself will, right? Jun 22 20:39:48 do we know whether Harmattan's UX is FOSS or not? Jun 22 20:40:15 Venemo: Harmattan's UX is not FOSS Jun 22 20:40:17 mostly not. Jun 22 20:40:26 Venemo: As has been seen, it's clearly a *powerful* differentitor Jun 22 20:40:34 (but spelt right) Jun 22 20:41:42 jaffa, the issue is not what can be achieved now Jun 22 20:41:47 but what OSS could help with. Jun 22 20:41:54 and what more it could become Jun 22 20:42:07 what is closed about the harmattan ux Jun 22 20:42:23 I mean, seriously. Theme files? Jun 22 20:42:43 this needs a big large list Jun 22 20:42:48 javispedro: Are the three homescreens & lots of the apps OSS? I haven't checked the platform SDK yet Jun 22 20:43:06 they are, though for some reason gitorious still has an older version Jun 22 20:43:09 but package is on free Jun 22 20:43:15 so Jun 22 20:43:26 note: talking about meegotouchhome (aka three homescreens) Jun 22 20:43:29 we can "just" repackage the UX for MeeGo and then run it on the N900? Jun 22 20:43:41 lots of apps obviously aren't OSS. Jun 22 20:44:27 Venemo, we can just repackage your package and sell it Jun 22 20:44:32 RESPECT THEIR LICENSE. Jun 22 20:44:48 * lcuk stands off soapbox Jun 22 20:44:59 lcuk, if the license is FOSS, then repackaging it will still respect its license. Jun 22 20:45:23 Stskeeps: does it cost too much to run that script that gets all packages from repo and counts free/non-free ones? ;) Jun 22 20:45:27 Venemo, you miss my point Jun 22 20:46:59 lcuk: As noted, the N9 is garnering attention for all of it together. Having three home screens and N900-style multitasking isn't it. It's the hardware, software, themes, styles & apps. Jun 22 20:47:10 yep Jun 22 20:47:22 lcuk, you can repackage my app and sell it (it is permitted by the EUPL), as long as you comply with the license, eg. don't remove the credits and also distribute the sources to everyone you sell it to. Jun 22 20:47:30 Jaffa, boiled down best in class features, it is a smart piece of kit to be sure. Jun 22 20:47:33 lcuk, which point am I missing? Jun 22 20:47:39 Venemo: but, for a start, themes are non-free. and themes on harmattan do not seem like a trivial thing. Jun 22 20:47:40 lcuk: So if the three home screens are FLOSS, there's no ethical or moral issue to having them on MeeGo UX Jun 22 20:47:59 Jaffa, I have had one of them for a while ;) Jun 22 20:48:11 javispedro: From what kontorri was saying, it sounds *very* complex indeed. Jun 22 20:48:26 Jaffa: for fscks sake, harmattan theme files even containt the swipe detection algorithm parameters Jun 22 20:48:30 *contain Jun 22 20:48:42 javispedro: Wow Jun 22 20:48:43 in css :) Jun 22 20:48:49 Eek Jun 22 20:48:55 javispedro, really? huh! Jun 22 20:49:16 It is cool, because then you can alter them and add cool other swipes :) Jun 22 20:50:41 as I was saying on #maemo, dconf, gconf, etc... why? you can use cascading style^Wconfiguration sheets Jun 22 20:50:58 SWIPER, NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 20:50:58 SWIPER NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 20:50:58 SWIPER, NO SWIPIN! Jun 22 20:50:58 OHHHH MAAAANNN!!!! Jun 22 20:50:58 :P Jun 22 20:51:02 they even make some sense, if you look at them with one eye closed =) Jun 22 20:56:28 Jaffa: if you have the platform sdk, look in /usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libmeegotouchcore/style/mswiperecognizerstyle.css Jun 22 20:58:01 one final question is, if Harmattan will be successful, will there be other devices as well? Jun 22 20:58:32 i imagine Nokia will continue to produce mobile phones, yes. Jun 22 20:59:23 lcuk: Quite possibly only Windows Phones and S40. Jun 22 21:05:01 lcuk, I think this "swipe" thingy is a very nice GUI idea Jun 22 21:06:12 I think future disruptions doesn't include this year .. Jun 22 21:08:20 alterego, I think the meeting of minds from this last weekend was the start of that Jun 22 21:08:49 Heh Jun 22 21:08:51 :) Jun 22 21:14:10 have the apps on n9 (and associated UX) been ported to the ExoPC yet? :-) Jun 22 21:14:34 the apps on the n9 have not been released yet Jun 22 21:14:42 how much of the non-harmattan stuff is open source? or how much will be? Jun 22 21:14:51 and also the UX to create them. Jun 22 21:15:14 and would QtMobility + (what else) bee needed to run these apps on x86 MeeGo? Jun 22 21:19:00 hey buddies Jun 22 21:19:11 how are my favorite meego people Jun 22 21:19:26 f'd if I know Jun 22 21:19:31 I'm running netbook Jun 22 21:19:33 we've placed bucket near our keyboards to catch the drool Jun 22 21:19:35 with meego Jun 22 21:19:39 oic Jun 22 21:19:46 I just updated this darn thing Jun 22 21:19:52 but I dn't think it updated to 1.2 Jun 22 21:20:21 mamoul: as far as I know you can't update from one version to another, eg 1.1 to 1.2 Jun 22 21:20:25 is 1.2 an automatic update or do I have to download a new image Jun 22 21:20:27 oh ok Jun 22 21:20:31 that's what I was suspecting Jun 22 21:20:36 I thought somehow I had updated from 1.0 to 1.1 Jun 22 21:20:55 you can if you know what you're doing, and depending on versions Jun 22 21:20:58 3000+ comments on the top engaget N9 articles Jun 22 21:21:00 yeah Jun 22 21:21:01 I believe you require a new image Jun 22 21:21:17 most distros have a major version upgrade process, but honestly easier to wipe a new image Jun 22 21:21:20 i dunno about 1.0 to 1.0 that way because 1.0 didn't have zypper Jun 22 21:21:25 MeeGo is still young so there changes between 1.X and 1.Y are substantial Jun 22 21:21:30 s./1.0/1.2 Jun 22 21:21:34 yeah Jun 22 21:21:41 is 1.2 everything I've been hoping for? Jun 22 21:22:02 only you can answer that Jun 22 21:22:06 does it autoconnect to networks that don't broadcast their ssid's? Jun 22 21:22:06 i'd wait till 1.2.1 Jun 22 21:22:10 hehe Jun 22 21:22:23 * CosmoHill wonders if npm is joking Jun 22 21:22:23 1.(n+1) is the winner Jun 22 21:22:24 I'll just put 1.2 on it and use zypper to go to 1.2.1 Jun 22 21:22:28 esp. if it's all working for you now Jun 22 21:22:51 the only thing I couldn't stand about meego is the lack of support for hidden ssid's Jun 22 21:22:57 that's bascally what i did. Jun 22 21:23:03 and also my wireless card used to drop its connection all the time Jun 22 21:23:06 but right now it seems ok Jun 22 21:23:14 maybe they resolved that issue already Jun 22 21:23:20 Meego only do 1.X releases, to get 1.X.Y you download 1.X and update it Jun 22 21:23:25 right Jun 22 21:23:56 well you'll be able to find a 1.2.1 image and install that at some point Jun 22 21:24:16 nope Jun 22 21:24:24 what! Jun 22 21:24:58 I rather like meego Jun 22 21:25:02 somehow it fits on my netbook Jun 22 21:25:09 which only has 4G of storage Jun 22 21:25:17 at worst on day of 1.2.1 release, grab http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/snapshots/stable/1.2.0.90/latest/ and install that Jun 22 21:25:24 nice Jun 22 21:25:37 npm: you know 1.2.0.90 is the 1.3 pre-realease? Jun 22 21:25:46 :o Jun 22 21:25:47 it fits on my netbook that only has 1G of storage Jun 22 21:25:51 nice Jun 22 21:25:59 in fact having more that 1G won't help on 1.2 due to kernel issue Jun 22 21:26:00 it fits on ...oh wait I don't have a netbook Jun 22 21:26:10 wait what Jun 22 21:26:16 why won't it help Jun 22 21:26:43 MeeGo will be a fixed size with however much left for /home Jun 22 21:26:52 crap Jun 22 21:26:57 that's not smart Jun 22 21:27:03 * CosmoHill is mostly making this up Jun 22 21:27:08 hmm Jun 22 21:27:10 I mean Jun 22 21:27:16 the install will take 500MB Jun 22 21:27:18 you mean it will partition the rest for home Jun 22 21:27:36 no I mean that erm Jun 22 21:27:45 hmm Jun 22 21:27:54 /home doens't have to be a dedicated patition Jun 22 21:28:00 I only use meego because I can't use chrome os Jun 22 21:28:17 you may want to look at your logs and if you see "Warning only 895MB will be used." Jun 22 21:28:28 I thought chrome os would be something I could download and install on my computer, but it appears not to work that way Jun 22 21:28:40 oh i meant ram storage Jun 22 21:28:45 not disk storage Jun 22 21:28:50 ah Jun 22 21:28:50 I have 2 gigs of ram Jun 22 21:28:57 one will be used Jun 22 21:29:04 in meego 1.2 Jun 22 21:29:05 my netbook is fairly powerful Jun 22 21:29:10 shit Jun 22 21:29:18 hmm Jun 22 21:29:19 runs fine Jun 22 21:29:21 :-) Jun 22 21:29:24 hehe Jun 22 21:29:31 * CosmoHill looks for his Meego 1.2 disc Jun 22 21:29:31 maybe meggo 1.2.1 wll fis that Jun 22 21:29:39 * npm wishes Jun 22 21:29:47 we shall see Jun 22 21:29:54 maybe I'll stick with 1.1 Jun 22 21:29:57 it runs chrome fine Jun 22 21:30:02 so far no dropped wifi Jun 22 21:30:12 actually a good test to run is "about:sandbox" Jun 22 21:30:12 chromium* Jun 22 21:30:21 if is says you are properly sandboxed, then run 1.1 Jun 22 21:30:27 * CosmoHill goes to prove npm wrong Jun 22 21:30:28 because it won't in 1.2 Jun 22 21:30:34 it says I'm not Jun 22 21:30:54 but I swear I just updated to 1.1.6 Jun 22 21:31:04 mamoul: you can always run 1.2 off a memory stick and see how it goes Jun 22 21:31:07 i'd go fetch my son's 1.0 netbook to see what that says, but i'm lazy Jun 22 21:31:28 mamoul: the isssue has been reported Jun 22 21:31:35 sweet Jun 22 21:31:36 oh yeah, I'll prove you wrong but not if I means getting out of my seat Jun 22 21:31:43 meego is developing a little faster now Jun 22 21:31:53 it was dead for a while back in the day Jun 22 21:32:24 You mean when Nokia went "it's not you, it's me...and Microsoft" Jun 22 21:32:51 i've seen no signs that it will be fixed in 1.2.1 but you can see for yourself: https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16284 Jun 22 21:32:54 Bug 16284 is not accessible Jun 22 21:33:01 um, or not Jun 22 21:33:13 bugger me you're right, wtf Jun 22 21:33:15 never mind Jun 22 21:33:22 pretend i never said that Jun 22 21:33:23 :-) Jun 22 21:33:45 total RAM: 868MB Jun 22 21:33:52 * CosmoHill is using the livecd Jun 22 21:33:55 well it can't be "fixed", its supposed to be like that Jun 22 21:34:11 damn, I've been using the MeeGo livecd as a host OS to build stuff Jun 22 21:34:35 makes da compiles go a little slow eh Jun 22 21:34:55 biggest issue it running out of RAM, not having swap and it crashing Jun 22 21:34:56 just don't do too many parallel compiles at a time and you'll be fine Jun 22 21:35:12 i setup lots of swap on my netbook Jun 22 21:35:19 knowing i'd be using it for devel Jun 22 21:35:23 funny you should say that, it crashed when I did multiple jobs Jun 22 21:35:33 put in tons of RAM and swap to a RAM disk :) Jun 22 21:35:38 lots == 4G Jun 22 21:35:53 if I install Meego on my desktop I'd install a custom kernel to use the RAM Jun 22 21:35:54 desktop has 6G Jun 22 21:36:09 * CosmoHill has a 4GB desktop with Intel Q6600 and Intel GMA4500 Jun 22 21:36:13 i've seen some compiles w/ gnarly parser tables and full optimization get rather large Jun 22 21:36:32 the reason we normally limit to 1Gb is that there is a 8% or so cost for enabling the option to do more Jun 22 21:36:38 and netbooks/etc usually have 1Gb Jun 22 21:37:01 fast device RAM also consumes power Jun 22 21:37:14 is there a way of making that dynamic, or perhaps a kernel option so you could boot into a different config for more ram Jun 22 21:37:36 zypper install super_kernel Jun 22 21:38:00 any word on pricing? ~500 eur? Jun 22 21:38:22 if you want to pay me 500 € for a super kernel you're welcome to Jun 22 21:38:31 lol Jun 22 21:39:35 npm: either install 2 kernels or convince Linus to add such a feature. :-) Jun 22 21:39:42 arjan: any chance we could get those kernel options so's we can have a happier chromium browsing experience? (re aforementioned bug) Jun 22 21:39:43 arjan: is the 1GB limit a boot option? Jun 22 21:41:21 arjan: specifically 'PID Namespaces' and 'Network namespace' under 'Namespaces support' config Jun 22 21:41:46 we don't have those? they're kinda needed for MMS Jun 22 21:42:40 actually that bug looks like it will be fixed for 1.2.1 since it's an update release blocker Jun 22 21:43:02 so there's a good reason for updating to 1.2.1 mamoul Jun 22 21:43:16 sweet Jun 22 21:43:41 npm: sadly it really is compile time ;-) Jun 22 21:43:55 npm: CosmoHill: The MeeGo kernel is compiled without HIGHMEM support. grep HIGHMEM /boot/config-$(uname -r) Jun 22 21:44:13 That's what gives you >1GB support for 32-bit linux. Jun 22 21:44:22 yup Jun 22 21:44:37 if it was cheaper it'd be on always Jun 22 21:44:41 sadly it isn't ;-( Jun 22 21:44:44 hmmm. any chance of offering two kernels? i can imagine some mobile situations that might want to run some large apps (e.g. gabrbedd's indamixx workstation apps) Jun 22 21:44:54 kernels take up size Jun 22 21:45:11 what compression does meego use on the kernel? Jun 22 21:45:22 indamixx provides its own kernel -- so don't bring *us* into this. :-) Jun 22 21:45:53 so add his repo and install his kernel? Jun 22 21:48:34 what's your kernel got that mine's missing? Jun 22 21:49:24 HIGHMEM apparently Jun 22 21:49:37 that, and capers Jun 22 21:50:38 well leaving gabrbedd out of it, i also run apps that can use lots of memory: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo-Lem#Qtractor_Audio.2FMIDI_Editor_and_Sound_processing_plugins Jun 22 21:50:46 although i run out of CPU first usually Jun 22 21:51:13 poor atop Jun 22 21:52:04 hmmm that reminds me ... i should try openshot on the tablet. probably pretty nice to hand-edit your video on it Jun 22 21:54:22 I could take the MeeGo .spec file for the kernel, change the configuration and create it on the OBS? Jun 22 21:56:33 CosmoHill: More or less, yes. Jun 22 21:57:02 CosmoHill: The kernel maintainers have a system to try to keep all the kernels in sync... so it would be a good idea to try and track with that. Jun 22 21:57:16 CosmoHill: But not totally necc. Jun 22 21:59:44 CosmoHill: I recommend cloning the OBS project, if possible... rather than using the .src.rpm Jun 22 21:59:56 yeah I've just seen that Jun 22 22:00:11 CosmoHill: Also... don't use the gitorious repos. Jun 22 22:00:15 there are 10 kernel .src.rpms, that's kinda confusing Jun 22 22:03:08 wait, I can ignore the header's one Jun 22 22:07:57 aparantly there are 3 kernels on the OBS Jun 22 22:10:19 gabrbedd: I can branch a project but only if it's on the OBS Jun 22 22:11:48 * CosmoHill stabs his router with a chicken Jun 22 22:14:53 * monoid stabs cosmohil's chicken with a router Jun 22 22:15:23 both are clucked Jun 22 22:17:11 okay, there are 3 kernels on the OBS, 2 of them don't exisit and one is not for meego Jun 22 22:17:42 so that narrows it down to 0 of them ? Jun 22 22:19:03 I need to update my space anyway cos it's for meego 1.1 Jun 22 22:19:49 damn....added a new repo as a target and it's already building my packages for it Jun 22 22:21:14 can the OBS unpack .src.rpm files? Jun 22 22:22:33 javispedro: No platfrom SDK here - running low on disk space on my dev boxes. Jun 22 22:23:11 you only need the x86 one for the time being Jun 22 22:23:25 so it's half the space Jun 22 22:23:31 ah well, manual install required for that though Jun 22 22:23:36 I ran out of space on my desktop so I made a new /home and moved stuff over Jun 22 22:23:38 so forget I said anything =) Jun 22 22:23:41 didn't go to well :( Jun 22 22:28:14 openmpi for Meego 1.2 http://repo.pub.meego.com/home%3a/cosmo/MeeGo_Trunk_standard/i586/ Jun 22 22:39:04 Jaffa, for the first time ever, my n900 told me it was out of disk space Jun 22 22:39:29 my nokia told me to obay the speed limit Jun 22 22:39:41 sensible Jun 22 22:39:41 made me swerve :s Jun 22 22:40:08 I wasn't expecting it and it made me jump Jun 22 22:40:09 don't speed then. Jun 22 22:40:36 if the weaving caravan wasn't doing 70mph I wouldn't have to go faster to over take it Jun 22 22:40:43 did nokia open source the GUI for the N9? Jun 22 22:40:46 i let jake fly my helicopter tonight Jun 22 22:41:10 what kinda size we talking about? Jun 22 22:41:33 big boy's RC one or a xmas one that crashes into the xmas tree? Jun 22 22:42:18 CosmoHill, training model. Jun 22 22:43:22 does anyone here know where on a N900 the "N900" directory actually is? Jun 22 22:46:11 newbie007: it's /home/user/MyDocs Jun 22 22:48:00 lcuk: ping Jun 22 22:48:42 thx, I'm still not seeing the same directory strucutre, I hope Meego has improved on this. I don't like not knowing where my stuff is Jun 22 22:49:20 newbie007: hidden directories for .documents .images are localised and shown as "Documents" and "Images" and "Music" etc .. Jun 22 22:49:22 perhaps N900 should have been named MyDocs Jun 22 22:49:37 (in English) Jun 22 22:49:48 In other languages those directories are localised to be other names. Jun 22 22:49:56 To make the UX nicer for different nationalities. Jun 22 22:49:57 .documents was it, thank you! Jun 22 22:49:58 oh right localisation Jun 22 22:51:33 but from the gui you'd think there is / /SDCard and /N900 with /N900/Documents Jun 22 22:52:18 I read on engadget there is a n950 coming out Jun 22 22:52:34 No, there is an N9 "coming out" Jun 22 22:52:42 The N950 is a developer device for targetting the N9 Jun 22 22:53:16 I think the N950s always belong to Nokia, they're just lent to developers Jun 22 22:53:20 alright Jun 22 22:53:23 just updated to 1.2 Jun 22 22:53:25 it's pretty sweet Jun 22 22:53:26 oh Jun 22 22:53:32 although it failed to automatically partition my ssd Jun 22 22:53:43 so I reused the partition layout from 1.1 Jun 22 22:54:37 anyway so long and thanks for all the fix Jun 22 22:54:41 fish* Jun 22 22:54:44 lol Jun 22 22:58:31 CosmoHill: did you find the kernel OBS project? Jun 22 22:58:50 the Community OBS can't see packages in the proper OBS Jun 22 22:59:27 I've been told that you can, at least through OSC. But it requires a little extra config-file magic. Jun 22 22:59:35 you can get the srpm off the main OBS and make your own Jun 22 22:59:48 it's midnight, I'll leave the witchcraft for another day Jun 22 22:59:57 FWIW, I based my kernel off the gitorious site... back when it was almost OK to use. Jun 22 23:00:08 Last I checked, it was fscked, though. Jun 22 23:00:16 I just want the config file tbh Jun 22 23:00:50 You can get that from the .rpm (not the source RPM... the binary rpm) Jun 22 23:01:03 good poinbt Jun 22 23:01:16 also need the .spec file to compile it Jun 22 23:01:38 aaaaaand that would be the .src.rpm :-) Jun 22 23:01:44 jep Jun 22 23:02:04 BTW, I only mentioned the OBS stuff if you were wanting to build a kernel to maintain long-term. Jun 22 23:02:20 Obviously the .src.rpm is the shortest past from A to HIGHMEM. Jun 22 23:02:22 :-) Jun 22 23:02:41 if enough people download it then maybe an offical one will get made Jun 22 23:03:23 or if 1 manufactuerer wants to make a 2GB device Jun 22 23:05:46 my workstation at uni started out with 1GB of RAM Jun 22 23:06:00 it now has 4GB of RAM just to coup with it's workload Jun 22 23:06:58 was gonna add a scratch disc but we don't think the PSU can take it Jun 22 23:06:59 Someone has seriously screwed up N9/950 searches on youtube with Android spam Jun 22 23:07:50 exactly what search Jun 22 23:07:57 "Nokia N950" Jun 22 23:08:05 second page is pretty much 90% android spam :D Jun 22 23:08:28 Well, youtube is owned by google .. Jun 22 23:08:42 there you go, sue them Jun 22 23:09:38 Or not, wtf is "botleizer"? Jun 22 23:10:01 http://www.youtube.com/wa Jun 22 23:10:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxeHvNARzcQ Jun 22 23:10:29 That is sad .. Jun 22 23:12:31 and making an issue of it is also Jun 22 23:12:59 I guess it's yours then .. Jun 22 23:13:06 No need to get defensive :P Jun 22 23:14:33 I'm tired of hearing about money, money... I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok. -Shaquille O'Neal/ LOL Jun 22 23:14:46 you chav Jun 22 23:14:52 Hah Jun 22 23:15:10 * CosmoHill goes to smoke weed and knock up a slapper Jun 22 23:16:12 anyhow, we should really congratulate to Nokia's marketing team Jun 22 23:16:45 after spending two hours reading their articles and app development guidelines, I now actually want the device. Jun 22 23:17:41 CosmoHill, I wonder how have weed with no sun if weather at wimbledon is true :) Jun 22 23:19:14 riding along the towpath, the weeds have grown a lot over a week Jun 22 23:20:16 some wild grasses here are taller than me this year Jun 22 23:20:39 has been really wet Jun 22 23:22:21 first time we're seen mud since we've started riding Jun 22 23:24:58 Venemo, it's a slick damn device. Jun 22 23:25:15 Best vid I've seen: Jun 22 23:25:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LphiRFvd40I Jun 22 23:25:25 Goes through pretty much everything .. Jun 22 23:25:34 GAN900, I like its UX very much Jun 22 23:26:10 GAN900, to be honest, I didn't expect that they would be able to suprise me, but they did. Jun 22 23:26:36 Nokia's still got it Jun 22 23:26:45 me too, I didn't expect the pink one Jun 22 23:26:50 there's a lot of bullshit and idiocy in the way Jun 22 23:26:51 You mean, the Harmattan team still have it ;) Jun 22 23:26:57 but they still got it. Jun 22 23:27:04 berndhs: Everything is better in pink ;-) Jun 22 23:27:06 yeah Jun 22 23:27:13 CosmoHill, about ride I'm sad for n900 he has no fm transmitter, i like radio on cycle Jun 22 23:27:17 I don't understand why they need M$ and WP7 if they have _this_ Jun 22 23:27:26 Eh? Jun 22 23:27:27 when its dark it doesnt matter a lot Jun 22 23:27:35 Venemo, nor I. Jun 22 23:27:38 niala: bicycle Jun 22 23:27:39 The N9 has FM radio apparently. Jun 22 23:27:45 Even Engadget agrees. Jun 22 23:27:55 yeah Jun 22 23:27:57 (and probably FM transmitter too) Jun 22 23:28:08 Remember the TX feature isn't allowed in china .. Jun 22 23:28:11 and I'm also excited to develop apps for this stuff Jun 22 23:28:30 thank CosmoHill Jun 22 23:28:38 an interesting question is whether they can make something equally attractive with WP Jun 22 23:28:39 I only hope that the N950's battery will last longer than the N900's Jun 22 23:29:09 they can not, WP's UX sux Jun 22 23:29:32 perhaps they will just port Qt to WP Jun 22 23:29:36 alterego, sure? Jun 22 23:29:39 berndhs: maybe that's why they've not announced a release date in the UK or other key western markets ... Jun 22 23:29:41 berndhs: Aren't they releasing the N9 with WP? Jun 22 23:29:42 niala: yes. Jun 22 23:29:50 berndhs, I sure hope that they will Jun 22 23:30:16 niala: apparently the FM drivers are closed and we're having issues getting them for the N9 and N950 for MeeGo N9(XX) Community Edition ;) Jun 22 23:30:23 berndhs, the only advantage of WP7 is that it's very easy to develop with Silverlight. but Qt is catching up quickly Jun 22 23:30:32 Elop said the next billion is not at the top end of the market Jun 22 23:30:35 niala: I mean that it was a push bike, not a motorbike ride that we had Jun 22 23:30:56 If anyone has time / experience I'd love a review of my Community N950 device application: https://meego.com/community/device-program/applications/two-apps-n9-tron-game-port-and-location-based-ringtone-management-app Jun 22 23:31:13 also if I was going to listen to music on a bike; headphones and a crash helmet would be better than an FM transmitter Jun 22 23:31:14 I mean of course it makes sense to use Qt on WP, but that doesn't mean it will be done Jun 22 23:31:34 it also makes sense that we should have landed on Mars 20 years ago :) Jun 22 23:31:44 berndhs, yeah... Jun 22 23:32:12 berndhs, no it doesn't. Jun 22 23:32:13 mtd: they're private Jun 22 23:32:41 berndhs: or maybe it will be done. Jun 22 23:32:52 Maybe it is being done already, and you just don't know about it :) Jun 22 23:32:59 sure, its entirely possible Jun 22 23:33:13 Tin foil hat time? Jun 22 23:33:16 Maybe it's more than possible ...... Jun 22 23:33:25 CosmoHill, transmitter is not the good word? forget Jun 22 23:33:41 niala: no no, FM transmitter is correct Jun 22 23:33:42 You know, like we were saying we thought MeeGo needed Nokia for this, the N9 Jun 22 23:33:44 lunar elevator could be completed now Jun 22 23:33:48 Microsoft needed Nokia Jun 22 23:33:58 in the car a FM transmitter would be great Jun 22 23:34:04 The invested _billions_ into Nokia for them to put windows on their phones. Jun 22 23:34:07 but on a push bike there is no radio Jun 22 23:34:10 about battery: if n900 phone is one block can we change the battery ? Jun 22 23:34:16 (not unless you stole it) Jun 22 23:34:21 I keep hearing things, and I'm starting to think that MS got the pointy end of the stick in their deal. Jun 22 23:34:22 I thought the FMTX was part of the wl1271? Jun 22 23:34:28 you can change the n900 battery niala Jun 22 23:34:35 I don't think the MS/Nokia relationship is as bad as we've all been thinking it is. Jun 22 23:34:46 MohammadAG: indeed Jun 22 23:34:48 alterego, please elaborate Jun 22 23:34:52 it stinks Jun 22 23:35:45 alterego, and isn't that open? (drivers for the wl1251 were open) Jun 22 23:35:47 Venemo, different people like different features. having microsoft on nokias is not a bad thing. Jun 22 23:35:58 same as having MeeGo on nokias is not a bad thing. Jun 22 23:36:04 MohammadAG: I don't know, check :P Jun 22 23:36:21 whoops sorry i mean n9 not n900 Jun 22 23:36:31 Venemo, Nokia have historically made the most excellent hardware of any phone manufacturer in the history of the telephone Jun 22 23:36:41 The options, especially when having multiple _high_ end operating environments on good hardware, means that the customers can decide. Jun 22 23:36:52 lcuk, good point. and developing with Silverlight is not a bad thing, I only wish that there were a tool with which we could target both Nokia's WP7 and MeeGo devices Jun 22 23:36:57 Two equally great platforms, or at least, two great platforms, are better than one no? Jun 22 23:37:08 Especially if they're both cheap to maintain .. Jun 22 23:37:12 Venemo, niggles rather than show stoppers Jun 22 23:37:25 it is a good thing for the consumer to have choice Jun 22 23:37:34 that I agree with Jun 22 23:37:43 but they know if they pickup a Nokia it will be reliable :) Jun 22 23:37:45 Someone said they'd seriously, pay me to develop a QML to silverlight and silverlight to QML conversion. Jun 22 23:37:47 however, it would be nice if I could develop with a single toolkit for both of them Jun 22 23:37:55 I'm contemplating it, but I don't think it's too viable. Jun 22 23:37:58 well, unless you are the only provider, then choice is not that great :) Jun 22 23:38:08 From a UX design perspective, it might be ... Jun 22 23:38:09 alterego, I can help you with that Jun 22 23:38:41 Venemo, having it run Symbian or MeeGo or WP7 is great in my book. Jun 22 23:38:48 or Maemo6 :) Jun 22 23:38:50 But any easy translation is broken by application code requirements, like qt mobility, or whatever silverlight has. Jun 22 23:38:51 ;) Jun 22 23:39:03 lcuk, sure Jun 22 23:39:13 alterego, lowest common denominator Jun 22 23:39:21 alterego, we could write a QML<->XAML converter Jun 22 23:39:31 either make pure qml document apps work well Jun 22 23:39:33 or html+js Jun 22 23:39:36 Venemo: I'm sure the basics wouldn't be hard, and I think it may even be a useful project Jun 22 23:39:40 But who knows :) Jun 22 23:39:41 or something c based perhaps Jun 22 23:39:42 ;) Jun 22 23:40:01 Venemo: if you want to have a go at it, and you make some good progress, I will put you in contact with my contact. Jun 22 23:40:07 alterego, obviously converting between C++ and C# would be not easy, but since 90% of the GUI is in the declarative part, it wouldn't be a necessity Jun 22 23:40:21 Venemo, tsh Jun 22 23:40:25 Venemo: sure, I'm just talking about the pure UX stuff. Jun 22 23:40:30 QML -> C# is required too Jun 22 23:40:37 So transitions, images, the core UX stuff, no app logic. Jun 22 23:40:54 alterego, I lack the necessary QML knowledge to make it happen, but I'm very-very good with XAML Jun 22 23:41:02 alterego, so we could pull it off together Jun 22 23:41:02 m'kay. Jun 22 23:41:23 Well, I'll put it on my list and we can see how things pan out for me over the next month or so ;) Jun 22 23:41:34 Do you think XAML on N9 would be good? ;) Jun 22 23:41:46 yeah, that too Jun 22 23:41:51 If we could write a XAML->QML(runtime) implementation. Jun 22 23:41:54 we could port Moonlight even Jun 22 23:41:59 Using what we know, well, that would be awesome. Jun 22 23:42:03 gnight Jun 22 23:42:18 Moonlight has an XAML parser and is fully compatible with SL2 Jun 22 23:42:26 Get Qt to make a QML scene graph from XAML .. Jun 22 23:42:28 Hrm ... Jun 22 23:42:52 Moonlight, yes, isn't that written in Mono/C# ? Jun 22 23:43:04 dunno what it's written in Jun 22 23:43:18 but _if_ the backend of QML is a public API, then anyone could easily write an XAML parser that would sit on top of that API Jun 22 23:43:31 Of course it's public, it's FOSS Jun 22 23:43:42 Doesn't take much to compile against private headers _if_ we need to ;) Jun 22 23:43:50 But everything we need should be public. Jun 22 23:43:50 hehe Jun 22 23:44:09 well, basically it's a JSON<->XML conversion then Jun 22 23:44:28 Nope Jun 22 23:44:41 I'm thinking XML -> QtQuick scene graph Jun 22 23:44:45 Skip QML entirely Jun 22 23:44:55 yeah, that is right Jun 22 23:45:04 I'm talking about the converter you mentioned earlier Jun 22 23:45:10 We can work on dumping .qml files if we want. Jun 22 23:45:26 But I think a runtime would be more useful as a demo to ensure funding. Jun 22 23:45:29 and the non-declarative parts of QML could be translated into the "code-behind" C# code of the XAML in question Jun 22 23:45:33 Or at least for a cool R&D project. Jun 22 23:45:38 mhm :) Jun 22 23:46:09 It's getting late, I really need to head to bed soon. Jun 22 23:46:18 yeah, me too Jun 22 23:46:57 * alterego dreams about deliveries with N8 at his door in the morning. Jun 22 23:47:02 *knock* *knock* Jun 22 23:47:09 s/N8/N9 ? Jun 22 23:47:09 alterego: thanks Jun 22 23:47:17 mtd: what for? Jun 22 23:47:26 all I can say is, I can definitely help with either of these ideas, but I don't know enough about QML to do it alone. so if you feel like doing it alterego, you can definitely count on me. Jun 22 23:47:27 Venemo: no, N8, though I was thinking N9 :) Jun 22 23:47:28 If anyone has time / experience I'd love a review of my Community N950 device application: http://www.martindengler.com/proj/n9/ Jun 22 23:47:32 I'm waiting for an N8 Jun 22 23:47:48 alterego: the reminder they're private, minutes ago :) Jun 22 23:47:49 Want to play with the multimedia capabilities of it. Jun 22 23:47:54 mtd: ah, cool :) Jun 22 23:47:55 np Jun 22 23:47:57 bbiam Jun 22 23:48:07 alterego, me too. nn speak to you tomorrow Jun 22 23:48:10 alterego, on a side note, if we successfully port/improve Moonlight, then we could even run WP7 apps on MeeGo (and Harmattan) Jun 22 23:48:18 lcuk: g'night Jun 22 23:48:33 Venemo: good point Jun 22 23:48:47 i would like meego plus archos a70 Jun 22 23:48:53 Maybe Nokia should buy Moonlight off of Novell ;) Jun 22 23:48:58 mtd: accellerometer and compass Jun 22 23:49:05 Venemo: if you don't think MS won't actively interfere with that... Jun 22 23:49:12 SpeedEvil: definitely Jun 22 23:49:37 SpeedEvil: assume you're talking about the tron port; I didn't want to stuff it full of stuff to look like I was over-promising Jun 22 23:49:43 bleh, excess negatives Jun 22 23:49:50 mtd: yeah Jun 22 23:49:55 wmarone_, MS is legally okay with Moonlight. they even supplied Moonlight with codecs and stuff. Jun 22 23:50:49 SpeedEvil: allow me to put you under "any other patches suggested by community" :) Jun 22 23:51:46 so anyway, if anyone from the Harmattan team is here, please congratulate your marketing guys! they sold me totally :) Jun 22 23:52:27 with the video? Jun 22 23:52:39 :) Jun 22 23:52:46 saving bookmarks to the apps page is a nice idea Jun 22 23:52:47 Venemo: I think they're all partying :P Jun 22 23:52:58 Anyway, g'night folks Jun 22 23:53:00 alterego :) Jun 22 23:53:07 cu alterego Jun 22 23:53:17 I, for one, want folders in the app-launcher Jun 22 23:53:29 I understand the argument against pre-defined folders. Jun 22 23:53:43 SpeedEvil, it's open source, you can make it happen Jun 22 23:53:50 Is it? Jun 22 23:54:06 I think it is meegotouch-home Jun 22 23:54:08 Sorry - overspill Jun 22 23:54:21 I dunno - I need to go and look at what is and isn't again Jun 22 23:54:28 although I can't give you first-hand information about it, yet Jun 22 23:54:32 Thre was _way_ too much of assuming stuff was closed on n900 Jun 22 23:54:45 When some useful bits were in fact open Jun 22 23:54:55 yeah:) Jun 22 23:54:59 * SpeedEvil wonders about meego on n9. Jun 22 23:55:03 (and I know...) Jun 22 23:55:04 anyway, good night guys, it was well worth joining this channel today :) Jun 22 23:55:07 :) Jun 22 23:55:10 Night. Jun 22 23:55:59 alterego, if you are starting to think about this stuff that we talked about, I would be happy to help out with either of them. I think I'm still very good with XAML and C# and Silverlight :) Jun 22 23:56:14 alterego, (although it has been some time since I last used them) Jun 22 23:56:23 now good night! Jun 23 00:01:11 okay, what is the default rendering option used by qt apps that use qtdeclarative views? Jun 23 00:01:23 if i leave it at default, performance is crap on my gma500 Jun 23 00:01:37 if i do opengl, fast but lots of glitches Jun 23 00:01:50 raster seems to be sufficiently fast and no glitches Jun 23 00:01:55 so what gives? Jun 23 00:02:15 what do you mean by glitches? Jun 23 00:02:29 not able to allocate textures big enough, so i get black squares Jun 23 00:02:46 emgd has a ton of bugs Jun 23 00:04:49 there was a time when i couldn't allocate arrays larger than 64kB Jun 23 00:06:28 64K! Jun 23 00:06:42 64K<3 Jun 23 00:06:48 There was a time I couldn't deal with >256 bytes of RAM without bank-switching. Jun 23 00:06:55 It was last week - I was coding for PIC Jun 23 00:07:38 (and the device only had 20 bytes of RAM anyway) Jun 23 00:08:32 hehe Jun 23 00:08:39 i've coded games for the Atari 2600 Jun 23 00:08:45 wow Jun 23 00:08:51 a 6502 attached to a RIOT and a TIA Jun 23 00:08:56 the RIOT had 128 bytes of RAM Jun 23 00:09:10 and there were only enough address lines for 4K of ROM space. Jun 23 00:09:25 thank you i don't feel so angry now Jun 23 00:09:37 oh yes, and that was shared Jun 23 00:09:45 with the stack Jun 23 00:10:17 you had to cycle count while the electron beam was on the screen Jun 23 00:10:28 to set registers for the playfield, your two players, and the ball Jun 23 00:10:40 76 cycles per line Jun 23 00:10:42 yea no screen buffer Jun 23 00:11:04 but you got some time to breathe... during the vertical blank, and the overscan periods Jun 23 00:11:04 I was doing that sort of thing a bit ago - on paper - to see if I could do SDR GPS on a $3 32 bit chip Jun 23 00:11:06 whee Jun 23 00:11:08 It's tricky Jun 23 00:11:17 nice Jun 23 00:11:28 but the TIA had some great points Jun 23 00:11:36 128 colour palette (in 1976!) Jun 23 00:11:53 and if you used your cycles wisely, you could draw some awesome stuff. Jun 23 00:11:59 :) Jun 23 00:12:10 I started on ZX81, with 1K RAM Z80 Jun 23 00:12:15 wheee Jun 23 00:12:21 software driven display Jun 23 00:12:34 and a rather clever set of gates on a ferranti ULA Jun 23 00:12:45 I find it amusing that there are - around - 10 cores in the n900 with more power than that. Jun 23 00:12:54 me too Jun 23 00:13:07 sad that user software doesnt use them Jun 23 00:13:12 for e.g. a low-power mp3 player Jun 23 00:13:53 Indeed. Jun 23 00:13:58 night night Jun 23 00:14:02 To be fair - I'm not sure it can. Jun 23 00:14:14 * SpeedEvil has way too little time. Jun 23 00:14:57 I meant to read up and find if the DMA unit could stay awake and trickle data to the 'soundcard' if you decode in a burst for 1 minute say with the DSP Jun 23 00:15:10 that would be nice Jun 23 00:15:11 With the CPU completely asleep. Jun 23 00:15:50 i remember when I first saw the Amiga... Jun 23 00:16:03 a guy named Bob Pariseau was talking about the chips Jun 23 00:16:39 and he said, "both the graphics and sound chips of the amiga can perform memory fetches and graphics operations on data while the 68000 sits completely idle" Jun 23 00:16:43 that blew my mind. Jun 23 00:17:06 I had seen it to a degree on the Atari 400/800 Jun 23 00:17:13 but they took it to a whole new level on the amiga Jun 23 00:17:20 Yep. Jun 23 00:17:28 For a while there, RAM was faster than CPUs. Jun 23 00:17:34 yup Jun 23 00:17:51 It's astonishing that RAM access speeds haven't moved much since 1980. Jun 23 00:17:58 Random byte access. Jun 23 00:18:03 yeah, pretty much Jun 23 00:18:08 the static rams set the speed bar Jun 23 00:18:17 I mean - sure - subsequent data comes in damn near instantly. Jun 23 00:18:26 But the access time is - almost - the same. Jun 23 00:18:31 yup Jun 23 00:18:44 ram is also a lot more complex now than it once was Jun 23 00:18:51 when i traced through code in coreboot Jun 23 00:18:56 (almost - from a perspective of having a RAM that is a million times bigger) Jun 23 00:19:10 Cacheline optimisation is scary. Jun 23 00:19:14 to initialize the damned DDR2 SDRAM controller chips on the ram chips themselves Jun 23 00:19:18 And all the various sorts of caches. Jun 23 00:19:19 doesnt it come out faster than you can transfer it, for the faster memory types? Jun 23 00:19:26 you literally have to write code Jun 23 00:19:31 that uses NO RAM at all Jun 23 00:19:39 entirely within the caches of the CPU and the registers Jun 23 00:19:44 to implement i2c Jun 23 00:19:49 to initialize the damned ram chips Jun 23 00:19:54 berndhs: Not really. Jun 23 00:20:34 i mean off-chip memory, the buses have been the bottleneck for a long time Jun 23 00:20:53 and even the pins on the chips Jun 23 00:21:28 The chips are designed to send at the rate the busses can handle. Jun 23 00:21:43 You can trade size for density and access time somewhat Jun 23 00:21:58 there is distance and switching Jun 23 00:22:07 speed of light is slow Jun 23 00:22:12 static ram will always be faster but less dense on average Jun 23 00:22:26 Well - yes - and no. Jun 23 00:22:39 The speed of light doesn't really come into it in cellphone cases. Jun 23 00:22:43 you can't make the buses arbitratily fast Jun 23 00:22:56 The path from the memory to the CPU is around 2mm Jun 23 00:23:07 how long is that at 2/3 speed of light ? Jun 23 00:23:31 3 picoseconds? Jun 23 00:23:35 Somewhere around there Jun 23 00:23:42 Well, well under 1 clock. Jun 23 00:23:49 you're always going to hit hard limits, physics is a bitch like that..but you CAN always try to do more in a given clock cycle. Jun 23 00:24:32 at least, until we can figure out how to create wormholes on a motherboard :P :) Jun 23 00:24:43 that's not easy though, you have to know the right bunch of things to do Jun 23 00:24:54 i know, the age old pipelining problem Jun 23 00:25:15 i started seeing this problem when VLIW and superscalar designs started appearing in the mid 80s. Jun 23 00:25:48 Instruction ordering gets to be a hideous pain. Jun 23 00:25:49 i worked on some of this for parallel computing in the late 80s Jun 23 00:25:49 it was one of the many reasons Intel drop kicked the iAPX432 Jun 23 00:26:02 the 432 looked really interesting. Jun 23 00:26:09 (from a historical perspective) Jun 23 00:26:12 it did, on paper Jun 23 00:26:19 I wonder what it'd have done if the compiler hadn't sucked. Jun 23 00:26:19 they just couldn't get the damned thing to go very fast Jun 23 00:26:27 and the problems seemed to go awauy with really fast CPUS, and now they're mack with many-core systems Jun 23 00:26:35 s/mack/back/ Jun 23 00:26:36 it would have literally been Intel's answer to the VAX Jun 23 00:26:46 I mean - yes - the hardware was slow - but the compiler seemed to pessimise it. Jun 23 00:27:27 berndhs: yeah.. Jun 23 00:27:55 the funny thing is, we're seeing so many trainwrecks about to happen with all these cores popping into designs Jun 23 00:28:06 but most of the industry just has their fingers in their ears Jun 23 00:28:09 lalalallala i can't hear you Jun 23 00:28:35 sure, they'll make some mistakes that seem really obvious Jun 23 00:28:47 All of the hard problems from the supercomputer era are back. Jun 23 00:28:52 yup Jun 23 00:28:57 But they're in your phone. Jun 23 00:29:07 and if Cray were still alive he would have said, "I fucking told you so." Jun 23 00:30:50 and i am concerned that a great many # of the solutions proposed Jun 23 00:31:04 ...yes...any solution in the computer world is contrived Jun 23 00:31:07 that's the name of the game Jun 23 00:31:16 but some of these solutions border on utopic. Jun 23 00:31:25 And then there is the fun game of avoiding the patent trolls. Jun 23 00:31:44 i'm dissapointed how little we do with all the speed and resources we have today Jun 23 00:31:53 berndhs: you and me both Jun 23 00:32:03 berndhs: i look at my 25mhz Amiga, and i cry. Jun 23 00:32:19 'oh - it's slow. But then it's only a 1GHz CPU' Jun 23 00:32:21 ... Jun 23 00:32:32 only got 1 gig of ram Jun 23 00:32:35 !!! Jun 23 00:33:13 like..dude your LOCAL STACK IS BIGGER THAN THE HEAP ON THE HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPUTERS I HACKED ON! Jun 23 00:33:15 this is where someone brings up the Apollo program computers :) Jun 23 00:33:26 yeh the AGC Jun 23 00:33:28 heheh Jun 23 00:34:34 this is where i sometimes pine for FORTH Jun 23 00:34:37 :P Jun 23 00:35:03 i never wrote a serious Forth program Jun 23 00:36:52 ForthML Jun 23 00:43:45 * lcuk wonders what to call his pseudocode Jun 23 00:44:38 call it program_42 Jun 23 00:45:01 * TSCHAKeee is happies, our new Orbiter is taking its first breaths Jun 23 00:45:28 Lean Inspirational Quick User Interface Developy Jun 23 00:45:53 why must it always be an acronym? :P Jun 23 00:45:56 :) Jun 23 00:50:51 there's nothing wrong with 42 Jun 23 00:52:05 That would be a cool name for a language. Jun 23 00:56:05 berndhs, :) http://liqbase.net/liq.20110623_015300.liqbase-playground.scr.png Jun 23 00:57:00 Will that crash my (imaginary) ipad? Jun 23 00:57:15 :) Jun 23 00:57:32 Is the clock live? Jun 23 00:57:35 yes Jun 23 00:57:40 the whole thing is Jun 23 00:57:47 that is what I see when I look to the left Jun 23 00:57:57 neat. Jun 23 00:58:30 all the things my wallunit would have on anyway Jun 23 00:58:39 Slight problem for anyone who can't read their own handwriting. Jun 23 00:58:56 not really, there are professional fonts around :) Jun 23 00:59:12 and everybody can practice. Jun 23 00:59:29 there is a whole group of sketches where I learnt how to write Jun 23 00:59:38 called "practice" as it happens ;) Jun 23 00:59:40 :) Jun 23 01:00:05 my mate has a load of similar ones on his iphone Jun 23 01:04:18 i am holding on to my hope that Nokia will build more linux phones Jun 23 01:04:41 or at least have a skeleton effort to make a kernel + drivers for new phones Jun 23 01:05:48 i'm holding on to my hope that in 5 years we won't need phones any more, network will be everywhere and we'll just use voip Jun 23 01:07:16 lol Jun 23 01:07:24 i almost never use the phone Jun 23 01:07:26 Not going to happen in 5 years. Jun 23 01:07:37 Spectrum is congested. Jun 23 01:07:38 no probably not Jun 23 01:07:44 wimax, and ... don't change that Jun 23 01:07:59 oh i'm sure its perfectly feasible from a technical point of view Jun 23 01:08:02 actually, it's not... in the US, huge chunks are still "allocated for future use" by DoD Jun 23 01:08:04 When beamforming gets cheap, and some of it can be offloaded onto 60GHz cheaply - ... Jun 23 01:08:09 similar situations in other countries Jun 23 01:08:13 but the market doesn't move that fast Jun 23 01:08:32 I have recieved 3 calls on my n900. Jun 23 01:08:37 Actually - no - 4. Jun 23 01:10:47 :) SpeedEvil Jun 23 01:11:44 monoid, :D what have you discovered in your recent hours about the n9(50) Jun 23 01:12:38 nothing lcuk2, only that i will probably not beat out 250 other devs Jun 23 01:12:52 if it were 750 i would have a good chance i think Jun 23 01:12:57 maybe 1000 Jun 23 01:13:05 did you advance your ideas further Jun 23 01:13:16 s there something specific you would want to do? Jun 23 01:13:17 i think i will buy a used n900 from amazon.co.uk Jun 23 01:13:22 lol Jun 23 01:13:32 yes i have a game running on n900 but i broke one of the battery pins Jun 23 01:13:36 Prolly best to wait till after the deadline - just in case. Jun 23 01:13:45 ah mhm Jun 23 01:13:59 monoid, what apps have you written yourself? Jun 23 01:14:09 a tetris clone Jun 23 01:14:13 long ago :) Jun 23 01:14:17 monoid: how'd you do that? Jun 23 01:14:36 with um.. microsoft c compiler Jun 23 01:14:46 on a $1800 graphics card :D Jun 23 01:14:51 Battery terminal Jun 23 01:14:52 lol Jun 23 01:15:15 SpeedEvil: oh i bent one after dropping device so bending it back broke it off Jun 23 01:15:34 Should be fairly easy to solder back on. Jun 23 01:16:01 mhm ... new n900s are still pricey Jun 23 01:16:05 I've only soldered a couple of wires onto the terminals once - never tried actually soldering it back on. Jun 23 01:21:21 it's like fox cancelling firefly Jun 23 01:23:11 Firefly<3 Jun 23 01:25:55 curse you fox! curse you foreevaaaaahhhh Jun 23 01:26:14 sorry offtopic Jun 23 01:26:29 i don't follow a lot of TV series, I'm not a good consumer Jun 23 01:26:44 same Jun 23 01:27:08 but some linux people told me "you have to watch the whole series" and so i bought them Jun 23 01:27:29 wow 1 billion Jun 23 01:29:04 oops wrong window Jun 23 01:38:55 hmm meego-ux is about 8700 lines of C++ and 23000 lines of QML Jun 23 01:39:18 meeg-ux-components **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 23 02:59:56 2011