**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 17 02:59:57 2006
Nov 17 08:25:15 <rwhitby-treo> morning
Nov 17 10:06:00 <Caelian|work> Hmmmm ... anyone else notice buildproblems with building debianslug-image ?
Nov 17 10:06:43 <Caelian|work> the do_rootfs stage of slugos-image bails out because of the following errors
Nov 17 10:06:51 <Caelian|work> Cannot find package kernel-module-nfs.
Nov 17 10:06:59 <Caelian|work> Cannot find package kernel-module-firmware-class.
Nov 17 10:07:44 <Caelian|work> slugos-image-1.0-r38
Nov 17 17:17:54 <CIA-8> 03bzhou * r4495 10optware/trunk/make/readline.mk: readline: 5.1 -> 5.2
Nov 17 17:44:15 <CIA-8> 03bzhou * r4496 10optware/trunk/make/rlfe.mk: added rlfe (readline frontend)
Nov 17 17:49:03 <CIA-8> 03bzhou * r4497 10optware/trunk/Makefile: rlfe: promoted rlfe, native for now
Nov 17 18:46:08 <likewise> NAS devices, some details. http://www.maxfair.com.tw/products/pdf/TS101_Comparison_of_New_Competitors.pdf
Nov 17 18:53:33 <Tobbe> The Logitech one looks nice with 800Mhz cpu and 256mb of memory!
Nov 17 18:54:10 <Tobbe> But I can't read the price :/
Nov 17 18:55:59 <VoodooZ> 800Mhz? Nice!!! Does it have USB2? 
Nov 17 18:56:20 <likewise> It's VIA eden probably
Nov 17 18:56:31 <Tobbe> VoodooZ: two of them
Nov 17 18:56:41 <Tobbe> VIA c3
Nov 17 18:57:00 <Tobbe> And gigabit ethernet
Nov 17 18:57:04 <likewise> EUR535 EUR 623 EUR 714 EUR 803 for the ddifferent sizes (I read only the lower half of the digits)
Nov 17 18:58:05 <Tobbe> omg!
Nov 17 18:58:34 <Tobbe> you get a whole computer for that price!
Nov 17 18:59:07 <Tobbe> (I think it says US though, not EUR)
Nov 17 18:59:08 <eiffel> ^^
Nov 17 19:04:11 <Tobbe> Over all though it still looks like the nslu2 is the best bang for the buck :D
Nov 17 19:05:33 <likewise> Tobbe: It *is* a whole computer.
Nov 17 19:08:45 <VoodooZ> Can you buy the logitech w/o a drive or is it included?
Nov 17 19:09:16 <VoodooZ> the C3 is probably closer to x86 and better suited to computer vision work.
Nov 17 19:09:22 <VoodooZ> Right?
Nov 17 19:09:42 <VoodooZ> Probably way more power hungry thouh as these thing are not designed for portability.
Nov 17 19:11:13 <Tobbe> It sure it a full computer :) http://www2.psych.let.hokudai.ac.jp/static/tips/images/nas-motherboard.jpg
Nov 17 19:11:44 <bullet> the C3 is a x86
Nov 17 19:14:11 <VoodooZ> I wonder how it fares against a P3 for example. Can't be worse than the slug.
Nov 17 19:14:30 <bullet> its way slower than a p3
Nov 17 19:14:52 <VoodooZ> Tobbe: yeah, it looks like a Nano-itx almost. a bit big for my current robot but next one will have plenty of space.
Nov 17 19:14:58 <VoodooZ> darn.
Nov 17 19:15:14 <VoodooZ> I guess I'll just plugin my old P3-900 directly in the robot after all.
Nov 17 19:15:29 <VoodooZ> I'll strip it off first though. I don't need a HD to waste more power.
Nov 17 19:15:45 <Tobbe> Robot?
Nov 17 19:15:55 <Tobbe> You're using the slug to control a robot?
Nov 17 19:23:52 <VoodooZ> yep.
Nov 17 19:24:00 <VoodooZ> http://robotics.no-ip.org
Nov 17 19:24:20 <VoodooZ> Nothing fancy but it works good and allows me to do some basic Computer vision with a USB2 cam.
Nov 17 19:24:49 <VoodooZ> I'm keeping an eye open for a more powerful one for my next project (a full-size robot)
Nov 17 19:28:14 <Tobbe> Awesome! :)
Nov 17 19:29:17 <VoodooZ> the slug is pretty low power so I immediately fell in love with it and the community is great.
Nov 17 19:29:23 <VoodooZ> I learned a lot hanging around here.
Nov 17 19:48:54 <drif> voodooz: for which purpose the slug is for?
Nov 17 19:49:43 <drif> ok, I see it now
Nov 17 19:50:44 <VoodooZ> check the overview
Nov 17 19:51:01 <VoodooZ> it's for the AI and vision code.
Nov 17 19:51:21 <VoodooZ> It reads the sensors/motors from a USB-to-I2C hub.
Nov 17 19:51:32 <VoodooZ> everything is on the i2c bus so its very modular.
Nov 17 20:03:51 <Tobbe> hey drif! Thanks to all your help I finaly got my hdd to spin down :)
Nov 17 20:04:27 <Tobbe> I had a syntax error in crontab that made it run every 6 minutes...
Nov 17 20:05:45 <Tobbe> So now I'm running irssi from my spinned down drive. How cool is that?! :D
Nov 17 20:06:09 <drif> tobbe: glad to hear that :)
Nov 17 20:06:20 <drif> tobbe: so, no logging?
Nov 17 20:06:49 <Tobbe> no, that is one thing I haven't messed with yet
Nov 17 20:07:50 <Tobbe> I'm thinking about logging to /var/log because that is a RAM drive
Nov 17 20:07:57 <Tobbe> And then running a script that moves the logs from ram to hdd once every day or so...
Nov 17 20:08:13 <drif> what if things crash?
Nov 17 20:08:35 <drif> well, your logs might not be that crucial though
Nov 17 20:08:36 <Tobbe> exactly :)
Nov 17 20:09:22 <drif> so, how fast it spins down?
Nov 17 20:09:31 <Tobbe> after ten minutes
Nov 17 20:10:00 <[g2]> likewise  http://www.ewayco.com/51-embedded-systems-100-PC-mini-ITX-low-cost/100-TU-low-cost-pc-thin-client-embedded-system.html
Nov 17 20:10:37 <[g2]> likewise or http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6828123924.html
Nov 17 20:10:50 <[g2]> I think those are $100 nslu2 competitors
Nov 17 20:11:20 <[g2]> one should doublechect for usb 2.0
Nov 17 20:11:31 <likewise> [g2]: cute and cuddly
Nov 17 20:11:44 <[g2]> full $100 PCs
Nov 17 20:11:57 <[g2]> and they've got 4x the memory
Nov 17 20:12:09 <[g2]> just fyi
Nov 17 20:12:35 <HopsNBarley> [g2], i took your advice and looked at these units.  very interesting.
Nov 17 20:13:45 <[g2]> HopsNBarley likewise and Tobbe were talking about NAS units there was a link he posted http://www.maxfair.com.tw/products/pdf/TS101_Comparison_of_New_Competitors.pdf
Nov 17 20:14:06 <HopsNBarley> i caught that, thanks.
Nov 17 20:14:20 <[g2]> ok.. didn't know how long you were gone :)
Nov 17 20:14:24 <likewise> [g2]: I was looking for the devices with the RDC 2881 chip.
Nov 17 20:14:43 <[g2]> RDC 2881 ?
Nov 17 20:14:51 <likewise> [g2]: But they supposedly can't run Linux. 
Nov 17 20:15:08 <likewise> [g2]: http://bradandsasha.com/images/HD-363N_Board.jpg
Nov 17 20:15:36 <[g2]> s/can't run Linux/Linux hasn't been ported yet/ :)
Nov 17 20:15:52 <likewise> It's a cheap Ethernet/USB <-> IDE bridge. Contrary to the slug, it houses the drive also.
Nov 17 20:17:28 <likewise> [g2]: http://www.raidsonic.de/de/pages/products/external_cases.php?we_objectID=4706
Nov 17 20:17:31 <[g2]> likewise I think HopsNBarley will agree with me, there's basically the slug, then GigE land
Nov 17 20:18:00 <[g2]> any 100Mbs box is limited to 10-11MBs xfer top
Nov 17 20:18:10 <[g2]> unless you start going 2 ports
Nov 17 20:18:29 <[g2]> the slug can do 8-10MBs
Nov 17 20:18:42 <[g2]> when nothing else is running
Nov 17 20:18:44 <likewise> [g2]: agreed.
Nov 17 20:19:15 * [g2] today was a big day for me :)
Nov 17 20:19:51 <likewise> [g2]: I ordered the box anyway, actually it's good that I cannot run Linux on it now, so that I leave it alone.
Nov 17 20:20:43 <[g2]> I _finally_ got dual-booting between MacOS X and Edgy working on the Intel Mac Mini from the internal HD
Nov 17 20:21:05 <[g2]> it's just selecting one of the other from the rEFIt screen
Nov 17 20:21:40 <[g2]> the Mac Mini was doing 600+Mbs from memory with just 1 CPU last I tested
Nov 17 20:22:09 <[g2]> it runs SMP now so there's another whole processor
Nov 17 20:22:43 <drif> are those noisy at all?
Nov 17 20:22:58 <[g2]> drif the minis ?
Nov 17 20:24:09 <[g2]> they are pretty quiet.  about as quiet as my laptop
Nov 17 20:24:49 <[g2]> in the next couple weeks I'd like to play with running a small distro straight from memory with the processor only running at 12 or 25%
Nov 17 20:25:19 <[g2]> which will only be like 400Mhz :)
Nov 17 20:27:12 <likewise> [g2]: an OE distro?
Nov 17 20:27:21 <likewise> or Edgy?
Nov 17 20:27:35 <[g2]> likewise Edgy
Nov 17 20:27:43 <VoodooZ> [g2]: what's the processor on those? what's the power consumption?
Nov 17 20:27:53 <[g2]> I've got CoreDuo
Nov 17 20:28:03 <[g2]> not the CoreDuo 2's
Nov 17 20:28:16 <VoodooZ> you talking about the portable though here right? Not the mini?
Nov 17 20:28:19 <[g2]> I'm sure the power consumption is pretty high normally
Nov 17 20:28:34 <[g2]> VoodooZ no the Intel Mac mini
Nov 17 20:28:53 <[g2]> likewise I'd be a busybox or a DSL / Puppy for the mini distro
Nov 17 20:28:56 <VoodooZ> oh really. I didn't know they used those. cool
Nov 17 20:29:15 <[g2]> VoodooZ yeah for like the last 6-8 months
Nov 17 20:29:38 <VoodooZ> damn I'm out of the loop. So much freaking hardware out there.
Nov 17 20:29:49 <[g2]> getting the dual-booting working is a mild-pain-in-the-a**
Nov 17 20:30:24 <likewise> [g2]: well save your notes! :-)
Nov 17 20:30:34 <[g2]> except for the mac mini (which I didn't buy) all my PCs are like 2 years old
Nov 17 20:30:42 <likewise> [g2]: Apple is trying to convince me hard to buy one of their goodies 
Nov 17 20:32:43 <likewise> gotta go, cya
Nov 17 20:32:53 <[g2]> have a great weekend
Nov 17 20:33:10 <likewise> same to you guys!
Nov 17 21:06:08 <NAiL> ooh
Nov 17 21:06:09 <NAiL> nice
Nov 17 21:06:30 <NAiL> I like the TS-101 much, much better than the Buffalo linkstation :)
Nov 17 21:07:58 <eno> NAiL: any reason why? cause i'm considering a linkstation
Nov 17 21:08:40 <NAiL> The TS-101 is fanless, has S-ATA and eS-SATA
Nov 17 21:08:56 <NAiL> also, you can choose if you want it to automatically power on after a power loss
Nov 17 21:09:02 <eno> yeah, very nice
Nov 17 21:09:02 <NAiL> (in software :)
Nov 17 21:09:32 <NAiL> Obviously, the comparison sheet is geared towards making the TS-101 look good
Nov 17 21:09:41 <NAiL> but those features are important to me
Nov 17 21:09:51 <NAiL> esp. fanlessness ;)
Nov 17 21:10:26 <eno> that's important to me too
Nov 17 21:10:34 <widrone> NAiL: Its got an external sata port asw? That is nice. 
Nov 17 21:11:37 <NAiL> yeah
Nov 17 21:14:53 <eno> ts-101 sounds like the chrismas present to my self
Nov 17 21:15:00 <NAiL> eno: anyway, the hardware in both boxes are quite similar except IDE vs S-ATA and fanlessness
Nov 17 21:30:20 <eno> http://www.tomsnetworking.com/2006/08/11/qnap_ts101_nas_review/
Nov 17 21:31:23 <widrone> Heh, just read thru that 3 min ago. Thanks thu! 
Nov 17 21:31:40 <NAiL> I have a couple of unreleased firmware versions. They're a lot better than they used to be ;)
Nov 17 21:32:09 <NAiL> eg, speed increased when they figured out that ip_conntrack shouldn't be in the kernel...
Nov 17 21:35:55 <NAiL> oh, tomshardware must've had an old version of the firmware indeed ;)
Nov 17 21:36:13 <eno> NAiL: in terms of optware, what is the basic difference to ds101g?
Nov 17 21:36:35 <eno> gcc version? glibc version?
Nov 17 21:36:39 <NAiL> the largest difference is that the ts101 uses uClibc
Nov 17 21:36:43 <NAiL> 0.9.27
Nov 17 21:36:54 <NAiL> which I still haven't managed to build a toolchain for
Nov 17 21:37:04 <NAiL> (gcc 3.4.2/uClibc 0.9.27)
Nov 17 21:38:40 <NAiL> Other than that, not much. The paths have to be adjusted I guess
Nov 17 21:38:52 <NAiL> (or some trick to bindmount something to /opt)
Nov 17 21:38:53 <eno> ah, uclibc, so i probably cannot run erlang on it
Nov 17 21:39:01 <NAiL> that is possible
Nov 17 21:39:16 <NAiL> As soon as I've gotten optware running on it I'm going to get slugos running on it ,)
Nov 17 21:42:02 <NAiL> I don't like the fancy "run root from a ramdisk" idea that quite a few NAS manufacturers have started using.
Nov 17 22:01:11 <rwhitby-treo> NAiL: easiest is to get the OEM to have an empty /opt dir in rootfs (can even be read-only rootfs) to allow for a bind mount of a writeable area onto that.
Nov 17 22:01:56 <rwhitby-treo> but having a writeable rootfs is good too (for things like /bin/bash and /usr/bin/perl symlinks)
Nov 17 22:02:40 <rwhitby-treo> that, and some way to call a startup script, is all that optware really need
Nov 17 22:02:43 <rwhitby-treo> s
Nov 17 22:04:03 * rwhitby-treo is getting an amontec jtagkey at work next week, so should be able to use the openocd to debug xscale
Nov 17 22:04:04 <NAiL> ok, I don't think it should prove much of a challenge to add an /opt directory and /etc/init.d/rc.optware (That basically just starts /opt/etc/something
Nov 17 22:04:20 <rwhitby-treo> yep
Nov 17 22:04:25 <NAiL> the rootfs is writeable, but not persistent
Nov 17 22:04:41 <NAiL> but that's not worth changing
Nov 17 22:04:56 <rwhitby-treo> that's ok - packages that make convenience symlinks can just recreate them on each boot
Nov 17 22:05:01 <NAiL> yeah
Nov 17 22:05:23 <NAiL> I don't think I can convince qnap to change to a rootfs on disk. Esp. since they have a disk spin-down feature.
Nov 17 22:05:55 <rwhitby-treo> that would be how they achieve fanless
Nov 17 22:06:20 <NAiL> nah, it spins down after 30 minutes of inactivity. Switching off the spindown doesn't make it any hotter.
Nov 17 22:06:35 <NAiL> the case is *very* effective at dissipating the heat
Nov 17 22:06:43 <rwhitby-treo> cool
Nov 17 22:06:52 <rwhitby-treo> literally :-)
Nov 17 22:07:10 <NAiL> the DS-101 could become uncomfortably warm. The TS-101 doesn't, since it's kinda massive aluminum ;-)
Nov 17 22:07:21 <NAiL> aluminum/aluminium
Nov 17 22:08:24 <NAiL> The casing is heavy. But it's not like I throw it around a lot :-P
Nov 17 22:09:07 <NAiL> I've mentioned making a D-I image for tbm. He's willing to help here and there... 
Nov 17 22:09:26 <NAiL> Won't be until I get serial though.
Nov 17 22:09:56 <rwhitby-treo> heavier than the fsg-3?
Nov 17 22:11:16 <NAiL> two secs ;)
Nov 17 22:11:47 <NAiL> a fair bit heavier
Nov 17 22:20:19 <rwhitby-treo> guess that's where the cost is then
Nov 17 22:21:00 <rwhitby-treo> convinced them to send me one yet?
Nov 17 22:24:36 <NAiL> rwhitby-treo: No, but I'm trying to get a few free ones for devs
Nov 17 22:26:47 <NAiL> I hope I can get the two-bay one too :)
Nov 17 22:27:10 <NAiL> it even supports S-ATA II disks :)
Nov 17 23:47:09 <CIA-8> 03nail 07slugos-3.10-beta * r384 10slugos/openembedded/classes/rootfs_ipk.bbclass: rootfs_ipk.bbclass: Fix bashism that makes do_rootfs fail on ubuntu with /bin/sh symlinked to /bin/dash
Nov 18 00:11:46 * [g2] thinks we should be making and selling our own hw :)
Nov 18 00:12:20 <HopsNBarley> [g2], shhhh.
Nov 18 00:12:45 <[g2]> HopsNBarley think too many ppl will do it ? :)
Nov 18 00:14:27 <HopsNBarley> nah, making hardware is expensive.
Nov 18 00:39:20 <EvilDevil> even sony knows that 
Nov 18 02:25:05 <rwhitby> morning
Nov 18 02:37:22 <meklort> hello
Nov 18 02:43:08 <Weltto> hi
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 18 02:59:56 2006