**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 20 02:59:58 2009 Feb 20 03:21:41 03bzhou * r9624 10optware/trunk/ (make/python30.mk sources/python30/setup.py.patch): python3.0: enabled ctypes Feb 20 06:26:55 03bzhou * r9625 10optware/trunk/make/ne.mk: ne: 2.0 -> 2.0.2 Feb 20 06:30:16 03bzhou * r9626 10optware/trunk/make/libpng.mk: libpng: 1.2.34 -> 1.2.35 Feb 20 17:54:44 Hiya Feb 20 17:55:14 Any active peeps here? Feb 20 17:55:48 I am doing some research on linux webservers today. Feb 20 17:59:33 mwester said there might be some people at their keyboards here - maybe no? ;-) Feb 20 18:01:13 Yes, but you have to actually ask a question first. Feb 20 18:02:26 Asking to ask a question, or whether people will answer a question, is generally doomed to fail - very few people are mindreaders able to figure out what you want to know before you've asked a question, and can thus not answer the first question about asking a question :) Feb 20 18:04:47 ahh - the linux "screen" command - filling chat rooms with empty avatars since 1987... Feb 20 18:05:53 okay, but this will be the fourth time I asked the question, but the last three times there were no responses, so you'll understand if I want to check first Feb 20 18:06:32 I came upon the NSLU2 again because I am looking for a low-cost, low-power linux web server... Feb 20 18:06:36 You might want to grab screen first ;) Feb 20 18:07:11 the wikipedia page for the NSLU2 and newegg says the product is discontinued, is that right? Feb 20 18:07:37 iirc amazon has it still Feb 20 18:07:43 Anyway, I figured this community would know about some type of similar device, that fits the same niche. Feb 20 18:08:18 Honestly, I am hoping with all the advances in ARM processors and porting linux to that architecture, that there would be even more inexpensive alternatives Feb 20 18:08:39 Any thoughts on the subject? Feb 20 18:09:05 I think the trend went to more expensive Feb 20 18:09:16 I would like to find something that I can plug a CAT5 cable in one end, a power cord or battery in the other end, then access it remotely Feb 20 18:10:03 With netbook prices at $300, I am surprised the devices I can find are expecting to sell for so much. This CherryTop http://www.cherrypal.com/SHOP.html is $350 with no monitor Feb 20 18:10:42 Seems like I should be able to get a tiny embedded linux device for less than I bought my Nokia Internet Tablet, for $280 Feb 20 18:11:20 I think at NSLU2's price point all you'll find is NSLU2 and some broadband routers that happen to have USB ports Feb 20 18:11:30 So any thoughts on NSLU2 alternatives, or is NSLU2 still the gold standard in inexpensive linux servers? Feb 20 18:12:16 What got me interested in this subject again is looking at the Western Digital WDTV - it is a $99 set top device, with USB 2.0, HDMI, and composite-out Feb 20 18:12:34 I looked at the website, and I saw they had GPL linux code hosted in their support section Feb 20 18:13:09 I figured, this is just what I need, with just a network port ... i figured there must be something out there at the same price Feb 20 18:13:37 Now, after several hours of looking and finding nothing, I am thinking it might be easier to get a USB network device for the WDTV and hack it Feb 20 18:14:02 Frankly, it is pretty depressing that no one out there is willing to sell a cheap linux system Feb 20 18:14:16 There's no money to be made selling geek-oriented devices for $99 Feb 20 18:14:35 The geek-oriented version of buffalo linkstation has a premium :) Feb 20 18:14:45 Doesn't have to be geek-oriented Feb 20 18:14:59 can be like the cherrytop - basic OS, basic I/O Feb 20 18:15:50 I see these things mentioned on Linuxdevices.com -- where they sell for $7 each when you buy 10,000 of them Feb 20 18:16:09 so I think you are incorrect that there's no money to be made Feb 20 18:16:18 The fact is that for devices that run $1000, the component costs tend to dominate -- and similar devices higher and lower in price would exist. When you get to devices that are under $100, manufacturing, packaging, distribution costs dominate, and there is no reason to expect that those costs will make the device cheaper over time. Hence we do not see devices similar to the NSLU2 becoming cheaper at all. Feb 20 18:16:34 unless a 10x markup is not good enough for you, which I think is exactly what people are thinking these days Feb 20 18:17:10 beagleboard is, what, 199? doesn't have ethernet though, and weakish usb? Feb 20 18:17:20 Manufacturers are cutting down on the flash, the memory, and other features hackers find useful on small-price items, I'm afraid. So there's nothing out there that beats the NSLU2 in price/feature for a small server. Feb 20 18:17:37 oh, 149 Feb 20 18:17:38 Beagleboard is the best thing out there right now. Pricey... but very very nice feature set. Feb 20 18:17:52 those are hobbiest boards though Feb 20 18:17:58 Exactly. Feb 20 18:17:59 built to be expandable Feb 20 18:18:17 it's like buying resistors at radio shack, they are going to be expensive Feb 20 18:19:16 No, they are low-cost, but they do so by not providing things that are required by consumer devices -- no software stack, no case, and some of them don't provide even power supplies. Feb 20 18:19:57 oh hey, the kuroboxen are cheaper than I remembered, 149 and 169 Feb 20 18:20:19 ... I know I saw a couple articles last summer about linux boards on linuxdevices.com that said the boards were $7-$10 each Feb 20 18:20:36 So the short answer to your general question is that the manufacturers have figured out how to build devices at the $100 and less price point, by using very small flash, weak processors, and limited features -- which make the device low-cost to consumers, but decrease its usefulness to hackers. :( Feb 20 18:20:38 it is impossible to find articles like that now. ..myabe I'll see it on google Feb 20 18:20:50 Maybe they meant the actual board without components :-) Feb 20 18:23:46 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2449363257.html here's a SoC for $7 Feb 20 18:25:35 isn't that just the chip? Feb 20 18:26:34 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7074144693.html Feb 20 18:26:50 Yes - just the microprocessor - that must have been what I was seeing Feb 20 18:29:02 But, even still, how much more is the surrounding board and connectors? I think you thought it was $7 just for the board Feb 20 18:29:50 It's probably less than $50, so, I think there's a big market for tiny linux webservers at $100 Feb 20 18:29:58 * mwester wonders why some people think that design, testing, fabrication, distribution, and sales are FREE????? Feb 20 18:31:03 oh please -- I've been to electronic markets in korea where they are practically selling little computer devices by the pound Feb 20 18:31:55 "oh please" ?? If that's the attitude you wish to take, then this conversation is over. Go to Korea and buy yourself one! :D Feb 20 18:34:32 ;-) yeah, maybe I will have to do this - or start looking at the offering coming out of china... It does look like I was thinking the System on a Chip prices were the price of the boards. The linuxdevices website (didn't realize it was affiliated with zdnet!) always puts a picture of the boards in the article, so I was confused Feb 20 18:51:26 http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7200 Feb 20 18:51:47 2 USB 2.0 slots, 200MHz ARM9, 10/100 ethernet Feb 20 18:51:56 + compact flash slot Feb 20 18:53:47 obviously very weak processor, but it's a start. i've loaded damn small linux on a 200MHz 486 and it worked fine Feb 20 18:54:32 again, still a hobby board - built for expansion - so it's probably three times the cost of a commodity board Feb 20 18:57:06 and here we go: http://www.norhtec.com/products/mcjrsx/index.html Feb 20 18:57:32 $85 from asia.... comes with puppylinux installed ;) Feb 20 19:05:16 $55.90 shipping cost :-) Feb 20 19:07:46 m-c, your googlefu is impressive, can you find me that cheap chinese non-x86 netbook thing? Feb 20 19:37:51 I found some more development boards as low as $80, even with debian pre-installed, but it is occurring to me that's not what I want to recommend to people. Feb 20 19:38:30 I think the best option right now is to look at the Roku $99 video player, which has an active community development program that is endorsed by the manufacturer. Feb 20 19:39:23 ShadowJK: http://tinyurl.com/d4cz4p ;-) Feb 20 19:40:03 ah! MIPS, that was what I was forgetting Feb 20 19:40:52 I had to think about what you meant by non-x86, but when it occurred to me, then I knew what to put into google Feb 20 19:41:04 okay, thanks for hanging out with me while I thought this through Feb 20 19:41:13 I think I have a pretty good solution now Feb 20 19:41:18 have a great day! Feb 20 21:50:14 03bzhou * r9627 10optware/trunk/ (Makefile make/py-statlib.mk): py-statlib: pure python statistics modules, added & promoted **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 21 02:59:57 2009