**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 03 02:59:57 2021 Dec 03 07:40:41 good morning Dec 03 11:57:06 OE DVM starting in 5min Dec 03 11:57:08 https://zoom.us/j/99151508871 Dec 03 11:58:09 what is oe dvm ? Dec 03 12:00:07 developer virtual meeting Dec 03 12:00:22 hmw[m]: https://www.openembedded.org/OEDVM_Nov_2021 Dec 03 12:08:20 Official backchannel! Dec 03 12:29:51 Minutes: https://st1.zoom.us/web_client/rnqzmq/html/externalLinkPage.html?ref=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 12:31:49 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 12:36:56 zoom really needs a 'list of everyone who joined' button as keeping that participant list correct will be painful Dec 03 12:40:13 People should add themselves to the attendee list Dec 03 12:40:24 yup, was just going to say that. Dec 03 12:43:49 If you are having trouble getting a word in, use reaction -> raise hand so we notice Dec 03 12:44:08 reactions is along the bottom of the meeting Dec 03 12:44:14 er zoom window Dec 03 12:44:22 yup.. Dec 03 12:46:11 doing a virtual meeting via a phone bridge was very hard to hear people. people who were far from the mic were impossible to hear Dec 03 12:46:26 and if you did hear them, it was often hard to figure out who was speaking Dec 03 12:46:38 with zoom you hear everyone well, and you can read who is speaking Dec 03 12:46:49 (zoom, etc) Dec 03 13:01:20 IMHO: virtual vs. in-person is all about scope: in-person is fine if what you are discussing doesn't need to reach everyone. If you have topics that are important for everyone, do them in the virtual meeting Dec 03 13:02:10 true. in-person vs virtual have pros and cons for each Dec 03 13:02:12 I find in-person to be easier to make decisions (complex decisions that become contentious).. but as an org, we've had far fewer of them at this point then 10+ years ago Dec 03 13:03:26 fray: Sure, and it's obviously fine to discuss to stuff in person; but if you want everyones input (even if it's harder) virtual is better for that. Dec 03 13:10:06 oops, i should have said: "doing a *hybrid* meeting via phone bridge..." Dec 03 13:11:21 wasn't there a legal requirement for SBOM in the UK as well? Dec 03 13:12:21 Does SBOM have a 'may contain" label? ;-) Dec 03 13:12:41 https://st1.zoom.us/web_client/rnqzmq/html/externalLinkPage.html?ref=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 13:12:46 bah wrong link Dec 03 13:12:51 vmeson: May contain CVEs Dec 03 13:12:55 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 13:13:33 behanw: It's a C/C++ world, it's almost a certainty that it contains CVEs! Dec 03 13:14:50 Meh. The language doesn't matter. There are always bugs Dec 03 13:15:16 Managed languages have fewer memory safety issues, but they have other issues. Dec 03 13:15:38 https://lists.yoctoproject.org/g/yocto-announce/message/229 Dec 03 13:15:42 "* New create-spdx class for creating SPDX SBoM documents" Dec 03 13:15:46 use Rust, because it's totally impossible to screw things up there ;-) Dec 03 13:15:53 LOL Dec 03 13:15:58 fray: ^^ Dec 03 13:16:12 jonmason: Lower probability. Dec 03 13:16:29 behanw: you did 15min breaks? Dec 03 13:16:50 heh. yeah, much lower probability for the 2/3 of CVEs which are memory related. Dec 03 13:16:58 We did 15 for the beginner class. 10min for the talks Dec 03 13:17:10 15 is reasonable for a long session like this Dec 03 13:17:11 I am adding background to the minutes also Dec 03 13:17:14 ok, 9-9:10AM EDT Dec 03 13:17:22 15 mins every 2h is usually a good idea. Dec 03 13:17:34 People may need to put on pants ...... Dec 03 13:17:39 I think discussion won't stop anyway ;-) Dec 03 13:17:50 You can mute the channel as a host Dec 03 13:18:24 But I would suggest a 10-15 timer on the screen share during the break Dec 03 13:18:34 google "15 min timer" and it will show a timer. Dec 03 13:18:35 behanw: I was jokingly thinking of the same thing Dec 03 13:18:39 How did you do that? Dec 03 13:18:43 Not a joke. Dec 03 13:18:44 like a teacher making all the childen take a nap Dec 03 13:18:49 Forced quiet time. ;) Dec 03 13:18:56 We're all children. Dec 03 13:19:32 Actuall... Worse than that: we're all tired grumpy children. Dec 03 13:19:39 *Actually Dec 03 13:19:59 * behanw looks for his juice box Dec 03 13:20:50 behanw: I was going to make a juice box joke Dec 03 13:20:59 us tired think the same Dec 03 13:21:36 Brain in low-power mode. Dec 03 13:23:16 I'm happy to help if you want to make me a co-host Dec 03 13:33:15 RP: is anyone working on getting checkpatch working? Dec 03 13:33:53 jonmason: [16:33] RP: Just had a meeting about patchwork and we're almost there. Setting up the patch parsing system now. Then we can take a look at what it will take to get patchtest working. Dec 03 13:34:03 from yesterday Dec 03 13:34:21 oh, checkpatch, I don't know... Dec 03 13:34:43 its early :) Dec 03 13:34:45 I just came back to the meeting so I may have missed some context... Dec 03 13:36:47 Then you have to figure out the license terms of the SPDX data and you get stuck in an infinite loop. ;-) Dec 03 13:44:18 Since WR doesn't have a product based on dunfell, it doesn't get much (any ?) of my/our attention. Dec 03 13:44:33 Xilinx doesn't as well Dec 03 13:45:25 I care about master.. and usually the fall releases Dec 03 13:46:02 am I the only one that hears "mix-ins" and thinks of ice cream? Dec 03 13:47:41 Break in 13 mins. Move along Dec 03 13:48:00 jonmason: Worth cutting this off at the break I'm guessing. Dec 03 13:48:17 yes Dec 03 13:48:28 there are lots of unrelated things landing Dec 03 13:48:39 we could have a whole session on dunfell backports Dec 03 13:53:06 If you are attending OEDVM, make sure you are listed as an attendee: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 13:54:11 T-5 Dec 03 13:54:22 Break coming up! Dec 03 13:55:10 FYI, I'll be away from ~9:20 to ~10:20 so no talking about rust or creating a meta-physics layer while I'm away. Dec 03 13:55:32 thanks, I will make sure this doesn't happen Dec 03 13:56:29 you will need to explain meta-physics Dec 03 13:57:19 Do we need to extended time or cut off in 3 mins? Dec 03 13:58:43 hard to know if you need a response but meta-physics is just a silly idea for an amusing (to me) layer name for a layer that contains physics-related software. Dec 03 14:00:32 OED says: metaphysics: abstract theory with no basis in reality. Dec 03 14:00:57 :) Dec 03 14:01:33 Do we need a "Shaemelss self promotion" topic Dec 03 14:03:21 perhaps run the topics which have moderators listed first? Dec 03 14:03:30 i'm fine with the order in the google doc Dec 03 14:03:38 * vmeson would like to talk about: Modern languages (e.g. go AND RUST) Dec 03 14:03:38 I'm interested in discussion of newer languages & package managers - go, rust, npm, etc. I can moderate/introduce that without slides Dec 03 14:03:51 I'd say topic with moderators as @shoragan Dec 03 14:03:58 said, then pick from the rest of the list Dec 03 14:04:11 +1 for new languages, but it will need to be time boxed Dec 03 14:04:18 I'll add myself as moderator of that topic in a minute Dec 03 14:04:23 @paulbarker then add yourself to the wiki Dec 03 14:04:36 And will shepherd it back if it goes down a rabbithole! Dec 03 14:05:05 JosefHolzmayrThe: We turned off video because some people were having bandwith issues Dec 03 14:08:27 Added my name to the wiki Dec 03 14:12:56 Is it possible to attend remotely ? Dec 03 14:13:28 https://zoom.us/j/99151508871 Dec 03 14:13:56 kroon: its 100% remote. zoom link above Dec 03 14:16:14 OEVDM running now: https://zoom.us/j/99151508871 Dec 03 14:16:25 Meeting Minutes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 14:19:14 zeddii: around? Dec 03 14:21:57 vmeson: what TZ? Dec 03 14:22:22 jonmason: young punk Dec 03 14:24:23 Crofton: Eastern TZ Dec 03 14:24:43 * vmeson heads out. Dec 03 14:42:23 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/eB1B5KhA/PXL_20211203_144130789.jpg Dec 03 14:48:32 For most of the mappings can there be a 'mappings' file that is included by default for FOO = "${BAR}" ? I know that won't be _everything_, but it would cover a lot of things, like the whitelist/blacklist languages Dec 03 14:51:16 fray: I'd see this as a transition period and you can show a warning or something about deprecation and remove it in the next release. Dec 03 14:54:53 I think the difficult ones could be PNBLACKLIST[...], as that isn't as easy to 'map'. Dec 03 14:55:03 without a chunk of python Dec 03 14:58:21 I have to bail in 2 minutes, back later Dec 03 15:04:42 the cat has brought in an animal .... need to see what is up Dec 03 15:14:23 I believe I ahve another live animal in the house .... Dec 03 15:29:16 * vmeson returns Dec 03 15:41:19 https://github.com/JPEWdev/meta-phosh Dec 03 15:48:23 armpit: I submitted my layer and I got "Page not Found" when I clicked the button, so I don't know if it went through Dec 03 15:50:55 it went Dec 03 15:51:10 ty Dec 03 15:52:17 https://layers.openembedded.org/layerindex/branch/master/layer/meta-phosh/ Dec 03 16:04:57 If you are attending OEDVM, make sure you are listed as an attendee: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T7pqHvNZuwDGOPXIgRR1_1-ECgDcw0xNin2IgahHpRk/edit?usp=sharing Dec 03 16:05:04 and check the spelling of your name Dec 03 16:05:46 moto-timo: your mic is flipped up (away from mouth?) Dec 03 16:06:23 or maybe the input volume is down again. it keeps resetting itself in zoom :/ Dec 03 16:07:20 super frustrating that this used to be rock solid Dec 03 16:26:43 alias go='TMPDIR=${GOPATH}/tmp go' 🙂 Dec 03 16:27:41 ah paulbarker it seems to have gotten better see https://github.com/golang/go/commit/efb1a7524eda6c36efdb506d0f9e8d822808593e Dec 03 16:30:25 JPEW: its there - http://layers.openembedded.org/layerindex/branch/master/layer/meta-phosh/ Dec 03 16:40:20 JPEW: SPDX talk is next Dec 03 16:42:35 K Dec 03 16:42:57 rburton will be turning into a pumpkin very soon Dec 03 16:43:10 hah Dec 03 16:43:19 not very soon, jon thinks i'm a slacker Dec 03 16:43:20 a different SPDX discussion than earlier? ;) Dec 03 16:43:33 Ya Dec 03 16:43:36 smurray: yes Dec 03 16:50:00 https://docs.conan.io/en/latest/integrations/cross_platform/yocto.html Dec 03 16:51:11 does the cargo fetch check the checksums against the Cargo.lock? Dec 03 16:51:18 s/fetch/fetcher/ Dec 03 17:02:50 ndec: are you around to talk on "Yocto Project compatibility" Dec 03 17:03:00 yes. Dec 03 17:03:05 not sure if you signed up or someone signed you up ;-) Dec 03 17:03:13 in fact I won't be able to stay for much longer.. Dec 03 17:03:22 cool, then you are next Dec 03 17:03:29 I think this one is almost done Dec 03 17:03:35 i signed up to help armin, then he un-signed himself ;) Dec 03 17:03:42 lmao Dec 03 17:03:44 it was a trap! Dec 03 17:04:17 Needs doing Dec 03 17:04:25 and will it go into layer quality? Dec 03 17:13:09 https://reuse.software/spec/#format-of-copyright-notices Dec 03 17:19:27 shoragan: yes it does Dec 03 17:21:53 khem, thanks Dec 03 17:32:46 I did that a few years back, and the feedback was ignored by maintainers.. It isn't hard to do it again honestly.. Dec 03 17:33:06 you pull the list of layers, then pass that info to the bitbake-layers add and run the test Dec 03 17:33:29 the time consuming part is the processing of the results and management of the process Dec 03 17:37:21 yes, dl9pf hit the same problems Dec 03 17:41:45 This is what we have https://jonmason00.gitlab.io/-/meta-arm/-/jobs/1847629732/artifacts/update-report.html Dec 03 17:42:06 so easy, a manager can read it Dec 03 17:42:52 compiled on every build Dec 03 17:56:39 jonmason: it is nice when you only have a handful of things to highlight :) Dec 03 18:00:37 RP: yes, but it could be extrapolated for other layers Dec 03 18:00:49 oe layers might be a bit much Dec 03 18:03:06 future note, do not put down estimate of time on the wiki. It is almost laughable to look at now Dec 03 18:03:53 jonmason: I was just laughing at that too :) Dec 03 18:07:03 estimates only exist to keep managers happy - sometimes they can be entertaining for the rest of us by happy coincidence. Dec 03 18:16:57 I mentioned collections! Dec 03 18:26:29 smurray: Now look at https://github.com/murata-wireless/meta-murata-wireless/blob/imx-hardknott-cynder/add-murata-layer-script/add-murata-wireless.sh Dec 03 18:28:56 paulbarker: ouch Dec 03 18:29:45 We need a wall of shame Dec 03 18:30:01 industry worst practices Dec 03 19:02:43 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/bbtn6Jl6/irccloudcapture2334952661739447980.jpg Dec 03 19:12:46 I am a dog person so I am offended by that photo Dec 03 19:13:11 * zeddii is triggered Dec 03 19:14:35 drink more beer Dec 03 19:15:08 must comply Dec 03 19:15:54 cat is sick of your BS! Dec 03 19:16:09 lol I have a call in an hour and 45 minutes.. so the one beer I had with lunch is it for now Dec 03 19:17:13 https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?alertAction=viewjobs&f_TPR=a1637448577-&keywords=yocto&savedSearchId=1723266099&searchAlertRefId=3845decc-8159-4ae1-a415-8e48ba4fab71 Dec 03 19:17:18 not sure if that works Dec 03 19:17:42 nope, didn't work here Dec 03 19:18:06 Decembers picture from my Black Metal Cats calendar Dec 03 19:18:28 * vmeson thinks of suggesting that we call it Gnu/Yocto/Oe but decides against it. ;-) Dec 03 19:18:58 Crofton: is the calendar a Chip and tail? Dec 03 19:20:09 https://www.lulu.com/shop/bmc/black-metal-cats-2020/calendar/product-24324970.html Dec 03 19:20:30 vmeson: that makes it into unhappy hour Dec 03 19:21:01 search linkedin for yocto jobs etc Dec 03 19:22:18 Crofton: heh, I forgot to flip my BMC calendar to Dec, thanks ;) Dec 03 19:22:30 hah yeah I just did Dec 03 19:22:36 which led to this Dec 03 19:22:49 Crofton: I'll drink to that! Dec 03 19:24:38 armpit: drink enough so that cat and and dog become same Dec 03 19:24:38 hmm, never had my headset battery low warning before Dec 03 19:25:21 my low beer warning is blinking since the happy hour started Dec 03 19:25:45 I've just been lurking, and I'm burnt out. Dec 03 19:25:48 * vmeson considers what cocktail to make.... Dec 03 19:26:10 JaMa: recharge ! Dec 03 19:27:14 * vmeson tried OE or buildroot circa 2004 one weekend and it took years to recover! Dec 03 19:27:19 Crofton: I keep reading BMC as British Mountaineering Council Dec 03 19:27:40 vmeson: 2004 would be rough for OE Dec 03 19:27:47 RP: Nice Dec 03 19:27:55 Very rough Dec 03 19:28:29 lol systemd still working on 'enabling it' today.. only adds 30 MB to a 29 MB filesystem.. :P Dec 03 19:29:19 I was thinking of the changes we made ~2006 such as more than one task at once, the concept of a bitbake UI, task dependencies instead of recipe dependencies Dec 03 19:29:19 it may have been early 2005, anyway, it was rough and it was meant to be for fun so I spent time making graphs instead. ;-) Dec 03 19:29:35 ..and a 59 MB filesystem is a problem when the machine only has 64 MB of ram, and it runs from ram... Dec 03 19:30:09 * vmeson goes to make a cocktail called: SATAN'S WHISKERS -- bbiab... Dec 03 19:32:03 fray 29MB of system management on a 1MB of apps sounds an interesting choice Dec 03 19:32:23 ya, the choice was this is insane, so we're going back to sysvinit Dec 03 19:33:30 s6-rc is another option Dec 03 19:33:35 29 MB is more or less sysvinit, base initscripts, busybox and module utilities and libc.. Dec 03 19:33:56 s6 works well until you have many daemons to manage Dec 03 19:34:10 for < 10 services its ok Dec 03 19:34:29 s6-rc or just s6? Dec 03 19:34:51 We did a POC where s6 came almost at par with systemd in terms of runtime memoey Dec 03 19:35:32 ya I never got far enough to check runtime memory usage.. disk space requirements was enought o say 'no' Dec 03 19:35:50 but this is a complex system initialization Dec 03 19:35:51 I use it in real systems, with many services. I dont have Amy issues with it. Dec 03 19:36:42 there are no issues with it. I was just mentioning use it where it is best Dec 03 19:38:36 fray: have you thought of using busybox-init ? Dec 03 19:38:49 Sure. And i have gone beyond PoC, and find it very good, also with many services. Dec 03 19:38:53 ya, but then it's "yet another" init to support.. Dec 03 19:39:12 I can justify supporting two sysvinit for constraind systems and systemd.. but adding busybox means a third Dec 03 19:39:23 (I did that at Wind River, but I'm not willing to take that on here) Dec 03 19:44:57 yeah perhaps a good compromize **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 03 23:54:04 2021 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 04 01:24:11 2021 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 04 21:30:36 2021 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 05 02:59:57 2021