**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 16 23:59:56 2005
Feb 17 06:49:56 <prpplague^2> ho ho ho
Feb 17 06:49:58 <prpplague^2> doh, forgot to log out at home
Feb 17 06:54:13 <Tiersten> ho ho ho?
Feb 17 06:54:48 <prpplague^2> Tiersten: merry freakin thursday :)
Feb 17 06:58:43 <Tiersten> :)
Feb 17 06:59:09 <prpplague^2> hmm, back to apex debugging
Feb 17 06:59:14 <Tiersten> OT: Anybody got a XBox?
Feb 17 06:59:15 * prpplague^2 hmmm's
Feb 17 06:59:22 <Tiersten> If so, you might need to get them to send you a new power cable
Feb 17 06:59:37 <Tiersten> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/4274035.stm
Feb 17 06:59:57 * prpplague^2 doesn't purchase m$ products
Feb 17 07:00:06 <Tiersten> :)
Feb 17 07:04:08 <prpplague^2> hmmm, questions, questions and more questions
Feb 17 09:37:46 <ka6sox-away> Tiersten, I have a friend who has a modded one (I modded it)
Feb 17 10:12:00 <prpplague^2> in arm assembly, what does a ! after a register do?
Feb 17 10:23:46 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: boo
Feb 17 10:23:55 <beewoolie-away> boo hoo
Feb 17 10:24:27 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: hehe, looks like the ldm/stm copy isn't working properly
Feb 17 10:24:54 <beewoolie-away> Why do you say that?
Feb 17 10:25:32 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: because the mem contents are garbage, but when i use ldr/str its fine
Feb 17 10:26:00 <prpplague^2> trying to figure out why now
Feb 17 10:26:09 <beewoolie-away> That sounds like a timing problem.  The SDRAM made be failing to handle bursts.
Feb 17 10:26:35 <prpplague^2> i suspect it has something to do with the fact that my is 16-bit data bus as well
Feb 17 10:27:16 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i notice your reftimer calculation is pretty tight, doesn't leave room for error
Feb 17 10:27:58 <beewoolie-away> You are welcome to play with the timings.  Those values may be specific to the chips that LPD puts on their boards.
Feb 17 10:33:33 <beewoolie-away> btw, I doubt that the refresh timer is the problem unless your SDRAM needs a higher refresh rate.  The SDRAM controller is smart about performing the refresh as needed.
Feb 17 10:35:13 <prpplague^2> yea, i didn't think so, i was just making an observation
Feb 17 10:35:41 <prpplague^2> all my other bootloaders i have configured for like 750 and your calcs are for something like 825
Feb 17 10:36:00 <prpplague^2> which is dead on how the sdram spec sheet says how to calc it
Feb 17 10:36:10 <prpplague^2> i usually just prefer a little extra
Feb 17 10:50:35 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: There is an errata about ldm, but I think it pertains to the 7a40x parts and not the 79520.  If I think of anything, I'll let you know.
Feb 17 10:50:56 <prpplague^2> i'll double check as well
Feb 17 10:50:58 <prpplague^2> thanks
Feb 17 10:51:16 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: hey.  prpplague has found that his system is failing to boot because APEX is having a problem copying itself from flash to ram.
Feb 17 10:51:29 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: Makes me wonder if your problem is related.
Feb 17 10:52:15 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, probably are :)
Feb 17 10:52:34 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: I wrote the verification code for copy.
Feb 17 10:52:52 <prpplague^2> [g2]: what problem are you having?
Feb 17 10:52:56 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: I neglected to make one change, thought, that you'll need to make.
Feb 17 10:53:14 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: At startup, you'll want the copy commands to have a -v switch.
Feb 17 10:53:22 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: Do you know where to set that?
Feb 17 10:53:46 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, I see the areas in the config file
Feb 17 10:54:03 <[g2]> But I did see the commands
Feb 17 10:54:41 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: It's in the src/apex/env.c IIRC.
Feb 17 10:55:28 <beewoolie-away> Here's another good use for a slug: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/4272041.stm
Feb 17 10:57:52 <[g2]> actually one of the guys is wanting to use the slug as a home automation control node
Feb 17 11:03:31 <prpplague^2> interesting, seems like there are alot of issues ppl have with ldm/stm
Feb 17 11:06:36 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: What makes you say that?
Feb 17 11:07:06 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: quick search on the arm mailing lists
Feb 17 11:08:40 <prpplague^2> hmm, sounds like i need to make sure the cache is working
Feb 17 11:09:09 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: No cache without MMU.
Feb 17 11:09:21 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: ahh, yea , just reading that
Feb 17 11:10:35 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i don't seem references specific to the lh79520
Feb 17 11:10:52 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: but lots of ppl talking about arm720t cores 
Feb 17 11:11:34 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: at this point in time, i think i'm gonna do a custom relocate
Feb 17 11:11:50 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: That's what it's for.
Feb 17 11:12:46 <beewoolie-away> I'm not seeing what you're seeing on the ARM mailing list.  What are you searching for?
Feb 17 11:13:31 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: from google:  site:lists.arm.linux.org.uk ldm stm
Feb 17 11:13:53 <beewoolie-away> That's what I did.  Except that the order is different.
Feb 17 11:14:41 <prpplague^2> http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/pipermail/linux-arm-kernel/2003-January/013218.html
Feb 17 11:14:53 <prpplague^2> i get several entries similiar to that one
Feb 17 11:17:04 <beewoolie-away> While it is possible that LDM/STM don't work for your setup, it does work on the LPD boards.  It is possible that the 16 bit external bus is what breaks the M instructions.
Feb 17 11:17:45 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 11:17:47 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: as an aside, I am considering adding support for the MMU in order to improve the speed of boot-up.
Feb 17 11:17:51 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: thats what i'm thinking
Feb 17 11:20:52 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: just gonna write up a single word relocate process for now
Feb 17 11:21:08 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i don't think its an issue with the mmu running
Feb 17 11:21:17 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: or i'd have problem with linux running on the board
Feb 17 11:21:53 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: That's my point.  By enabling the MMU, I suspect that more systems will work reliably.  Including the slug.
Feb 17 11:29:17 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 11:30:32 * prpplague^2 is gonna take a break and then start on the relocate code
Feb 17 11:33:44 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: I see that you got an error message with the new copy command.  What was is?
Feb 17 11:35:10 * prpplague^2 grabs apex 1.0.26
Feb 17 11:35:37 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: what about 1.0.27
Feb 17 11:35:49 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, the first 3-4 times copy worked without any copy errors
Feb 17 11:36:12 <[g2]> later on, the copy didn't copy the data like before
Feb 17 11:36:20 <[g2]> (errors on the copy)
Feb 17 11:36:44 <beewoolie-away> Did the copy command ever report an error?
Feb 17 11:36:45 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: oh is there a 1.0.27?
Feb 17 11:36:48 <prpplague^2> didn't notcie
Feb 17 11:37:01 * prpplague^2 grabs 1.0.27 instead
Feb 17 11:37:06 <[g2]> the copy command didn't report and error but it was without the -v in .27
Feb 17 11:37:20 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: Ah.
Feb 17 11:39:06 <[g2]> I'll be looking the the env.c file to make that SOP soon
Feb 17 11:39:40 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: It's kinda disappointing.
Feb 17 11:40:09 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, what's that ?
Feb 17 11:40:19 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: I wanted to see where it was failing.
Feb 17 11:42:19 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, hold on to your pants partner :)
Feb 17 12:08:49 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: hows this look
Feb 17 12:08:50 <prpplague^2> CopyCode:
Feb 17 12:08:50 <prpplague^2> 	    LDR		r4, = SDRAM_BASE_ADDR		/*SDRAM Physical Address */
Feb 17 12:08:50 <prpplague^2> 		ldr 	r3, =codeStart
Feb 17 12:08:50 <prpplague^2> 		ldr 	r1, [r3, #0]			/* Code section start value in r1 */
Feb 17 12:08:50 <prpplague^2> 		ldr 	r3, =codeEnd
Feb 17 12:08:52 <prpplague^2> 		ldr 	r0, [r3, #0]	
Feb 17 12:08:54 <prpplague^2>     	SUB		r0, r0, r1			/* Code section length in r0 */
Feb 17 12:08:58 <prpplague^2> 	    MOV 	r2, r4
Feb 17 12:09:00 <prpplague^2>     	CMP		r0, #0
Feb 17 12:09:02 <prpplague^2> 	    BEQ		L41
Feb 17 12:09:04 <prpplague^2> L40:
Feb 17 12:09:06 <prpplague^2>     	LDR		r3, [r1], #4
Feb 17 12:09:08 <prpplague^2> 	    STR		r3, [r2], #4
Feb 17 12:09:10 <prpplague^2>     	SUBS	r0, r0, #4
Feb 17 12:09:12 <prpplague^2> 	    BGT		L40
Feb 17 12:09:14 <prpplague^2> L41:
Feb 17 12:09:16 <prpplague^2>     	LDR		r4, = SDRAM_BASE_ADDR          /* SDRAM Physical Address */
Feb 17 12:09:35 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: I think it would be better *not* to paste code to the channel.
Feb 17 12:09:41 <beewoolie-away> How about sending it over email.
Feb 17 12:09:58 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i figured it was such a small channel it wouldn't be a problem
Feb 17 12:10:14 <beewoolie-away> Let's not start any bad habits just now.
Feb 17 12:10:21 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: hehe
Feb 17 12:10:35 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea, i'll send you a copy when i'm done testing
Feb 17 12:10:44 <beewoolie-away> Besides, it's hard to read this way.
Feb 17 12:11:16 <beewoolie-away> The only thing I will say is why code in assembler when all you have to do is edit the original file and change a couple of instructions?
Feb 17 12:13:46 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: hmm, seems like alot more than a couple
Feb 17 12:14:00 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, I've reboot and reloaded about half a dozen times with the -v but it hasn't kicked in yet
Feb 17 12:14:11 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: damn.
Feb 17 12:14:24 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: and it boots fine, right?
Feb 17 12:14:26 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: asm isn't my specialty
Feb 17 12:14:41 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, it's always booted fine when it's copied fine
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 17 12:17:11 2005
Feb 17 12:17:13 <[g2]> crc error
Feb 17 12:17:16 <[g2]>  -- System halted
Feb 17 12:24:15 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, 
Feb 17 12:24:18 <[g2]> # copy -v nor:0x60010+0xffff0 0x00008000
Feb 17 12:24:18 <[g2]> 1048560 bytes transferred
Feb 17 12:24:18 <[g2]> # compare nor:0x60010+0xffff0 0x00008000+0xffff0
Feb 17 12:24:18 <[g2]> regions differ 0x71 != 0x00 at 374976 (0x5b8c0)
Feb 17 12:24:46 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: whoa.
Feb 17 12:24:49 <[g2]> that's on boot
Feb 17 12:25:08 <[g2]> startup *= copy -v nor:0x60010+0xffff0 0x00008000;compare nor:0x60010+0xffff0 0x00008000+0xffff0 ;
Feb 17 12:25:29 <[g2]> whoa dude!
Feb 17 12:25:41 <[g2]> Bill and Ted :)
Feb 17 12:25:50 <beewoolie-away> That means that the redundant read is coming up with the same data as the first read.  I need to add a second verification.
Feb 17 12:30:04 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, sorry that took so long
Feb 17 12:31:29 <beewoolie-away> np
Feb 17 12:33:03 <beewoolie-away> I need to focus on some other tasks today.  I'll get back to this in time.  The next thing I'd like to do is augment the copy verify with a check at the end that compares the whole source to the destination.  I suspect that this might be related to some code I read elsewhere that purged that cache by reading a block of data the size of the cache.
Feb 17 12:33:36 <beewoolie-away> I still have no hypothesis as to why you see this and no one else has.
Feb 17 12:33:54 <beewoolie-away> [g2]: When do you expect your jtag
Feb 17 12:33:58 <beewoolie-away> 'd slug?
Feb 17 13:05:21 <[g2]> beewoolie-away, Haven't heard from ka6sox yet today
Feb 17 13:05:35 <[g2]> I don't know if it shipped yesterday or not
Feb 17 13:05:36 <beewoolie-away> ~seen ka6sox
Feb 17 13:05:52 <[g2]> qbot is missing
Feb 17 13:05:53 <beewoolie-away> Where's that bot when you need it?
Feb 17 13:06:51 <[g2]> where's the fedex when you need it ?
Feb 17 13:08:11 * prpplague^2 is soooooo close to having this working
Feb 17 13:11:05 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: if i understand correctly the asm code you are using, you are starting at the 0x00000000 address for your copy right
Feb 17 13:11:06 <prpplague^2> ?
Feb 17 13:13:16 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: nope
Feb 17 13:14:11 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: I take that back.  That isn't how it figures it out.  It copies to the VMA from the VMA-execution offset
Feb 17 13:14:23 <beewoolie-away> That happens to be 0 when running from flash.
Feb 17 13:19:06 <beewoolie-away> rwhitby: morning
Feb 17 13:19:46 <rwhitby> morning
Feb 17 13:19:58 <rwhitby> how's things going over in this project?
Feb 17 13:21:21 <beewoolie-away> If you mean the jtag, then slow.  We've decided on a hardware design and eagerly await prototypes.
Feb 17 13:21:28 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: right
Feb 17 13:21:42 <rwhitby> actually i was asking about APEX :-)
Feb 17 13:22:43 <beewoolie-away> rwhitby: Ah.  Well, we've gotten one brave fellow to flash the loader to his slug and it works.  prpplague is working to get it running on his new board.  We've found what looks to be a core limitation that prevents some of the code from running on that board.
Feb 17 13:22:57 <beewoolie-away> rwhitby: He's attempting to write a replacement function.
Feb 17 13:23:02 <rwhitby> cool
Feb 17 13:23:31 <beewoolie-away> [g2] has some wierd problem where data is copied from flash to ram, but incorrectly.  We haven't been able to pinpoint the cause.
Feb 17 13:25:35 <[g2]> rwhitby, APEX is rocking!
Feb 17 13:26:08 <[g2]> it's a quite sane environment
Feb 17 13:26:26 <[g2]> and teeny tiny 
Feb 17 13:26:42 <[g2]> and well organized
Feb 17 13:28:44 <[g2]> most importantly it works pretty well most of the time
Feb 17 13:30:56 <rwhitby> cool
Feb 17 13:32:44 <[g2]> rwhitby, I tried switchbox 4.7 today with OpenSlug
Feb 17 13:33:05 <[g2]> there are some Unslung specific things in there
Feb 17 13:33:32 <[g2]> which is understandable
Feb 17 14:19:43 <prpplague^2> crude, still having some troubles copying
Feb 17 14:19:59 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: looking better though
Feb 17 14:20:08 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: atleast 1/2 of the memory looks correct
Feb 17 14:27:47 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: doesn't look like you do any checking for idle status of the sdram
Feb 17 14:27:52 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: is that correct?
Feb 17 14:28:22 <beewoolie-away> I have a guide on how to perform SDRAM init if you need it.
Feb 17 14:28:40 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea, i also have the guide
Feb 17 14:28:43 <beewoolie-away> There is a simple one in the lh79520 book.
Feb 17 14:28:49 <beewoolie-away> datasheet.
Feb 17 14:28:55 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yours varies from the sharp references
Feb 17 14:29:11 <beewoolie-away> right.  I went to the microm datasheet.
Feb 17 14:29:23 <beewoolie-away> Micron.
Feb 17 14:29:30 <prpplague^2> yea i'm using the micron as well
Feb 17 14:30:49 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i thought you were suppose to do a check to make sure the sdram was in idle state before setting up config0 
Feb 17 14:31:04 <beewoolie-away> Is that in the Micron datasheet?
Feb 17 14:31:33 <prpplague^2> let me see where i read it, iirc its in the sharp example doc
Feb 17 14:36:51 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: bottom of the page of 6-15 in the lh79520 users manual
Feb 17 14:38:00 <beewoolie-away> My version of the documentation appears to differ from yours.
Feb 17 14:38:24 <beewoolie-away> Mine says 1.0 at the center of the footer.  Yours?
Feb 17 14:38:49 <prpplague^2> mines the preliminary release
Feb 17 14:38:54 <beewoolie-away> Also, Mine is from July 2004.
Feb 17 14:39:11 <beewoolie-away> What else is on the page you're reading?
Feb 17 14:39:44 <prpplague^2> should be section 6.4.1 sdrc configuration register 0
Feb 17 14:40:14 <beewoolie-away> There is a line about "Once the SDRAM device is in the IDLE state, two AUTO REFRESH cycles..."  Is that what you are reading?
Feb 17 14:42:00 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: negative, page 6-14 in your version
Feb 17 14:42:44 <beewoolie-away> You are welcome to try adding a check for that bit.  AFAICT, it isn't necessary.  
Feb 17 14:43:25 <beewoolie-away> None of the code or datasheets I've read require such access to the SDRC.
Feb 17 14:43:31 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: what about the recommendation about the two auto refresh  cycles?
Feb 17 14:43:49 <beewoolie-away> I've mused about this quite a lot.
Feb 17 14:44:17 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea i read your comments
Feb 17 14:44:25 <beewoolie-away> I've determined from the timing sheets that it isn't necessary.
Feb 17 14:44:37 <beewoolie-away> The 'cycles' they are referring to are clock cycles.
Feb 17 14:44:58 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: Please be my guest and hack away.  
Feb 17 14:45:25 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: i intend to
Feb 17 14:46:24 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: just confused why i'm having so mych trouble with the sdram with apex, didn't have anywhere near this amount of issues with blob or our custom bootloader
Feb 17 14:46:59 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: so am I as I've never had problems either.
Feb 17 14:47:40 <beewoolie-away> One of the things to keep in mind is that many people copy from one another without giving it much though.
Feb 17 14:48:13 <beewoolie-away> It can create a situation where a bug is circumnavigated...or perpetuated.  I wrote all of this code from scratch.
Feb 17 14:48:28 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: yea, as did i for the custom bootloader
Feb 17 14:48:49 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: but i didn't deviate from the refer material 
Feb 17 14:48:51 <beewoolie-away> And you didn't use LDM
Feb 17 14:48:59 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: right
Feb 17 14:49:04 <beewoolie-away> I don't think I did either.
Feb 17 14:49:24 <beewoolie-away> the blob code doesn't check the idle status bit.
Feb 17 14:49:38 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: did after i ported it
Feb 17 14:49:40 <beewoolie-away> You can add more auto-refreshs faster than you can ask me about it.
Feb 17 14:49:51 <beewoolie-away> The lineo blob didn't.
Feb 17 14:49:57 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: that is correct
Feb 17 14:54:20 <beewoolie-away> prpplague^2: I email'd a relocate.c file with a word-wise copy routine.
Feb 17 14:57:37 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: thanks, i'll give it a try
Feb 17 14:58:53 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: hehe, thats almost identical to what i have
Feb 17 15:14:33 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: oh one last  question, why is the apex_vma for the lpd79520 x20200000 instead of 0x20000000 ?
Feb 17 15:15:29 <beewoolie-away> Kernel goes there.
Feb 17 15:15:37 <beewoolie-away> Kernel starts at 0x8000
Feb 17 15:15:51 <beewoolie-away> ATAGS go to 0x100
Feb 17 15:16:32 <beewoolie-away> Moreover, if we were to have exception vectors, those would go at 0x0.
Feb 17 15:17:22 <prpplague^2> ahh ok, just curious
Feb 17 15:47:09 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: thanks for the help today
Feb 17 15:47:14 <prpplague^2> beewoolie-away: happy hacking
Feb 17 17:08:53 <[g2]> OT: This look cool http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6291158650.html
Feb 17 17:10:01 <[g2]> http://www.nexvision.fr/html/fiches/nex-cam.htm
Feb 17 17:33:52 <prpplague> ho didy ho ho
Feb 17 18:05:57 <prpplague> jacques: hey
Feb 17 18:06:06 <prpplague> jacques: whats cookin on the west coast today?
Feb 17 18:06:40 <jacques> hi prpplague not much
Feb 17 18:28:37 <prpplague> jacques: i'd give my right arm this evening for some good west coast microbrew 
Feb 17 18:40:19 <beewoolie-away> prpplague: Can't you get Anchor Steam where you are?
Feb 17 18:40:46 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: very difficult to get
Feb 17 18:40:54 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: texas has weird beer laws
Feb 17 18:41:06 <beewoolie-away> prpplague: bummer dude
Feb 17 18:41:23 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: most microbrewerys can't afford to comply with the silly labeling and distrubition regulations
Feb 17 18:41:52 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: AB, miller, and coors buy up all the distribution permits
Feb 17 18:42:07 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: so none are left for smaller breweries
Feb 17 18:45:04 <beewoolie-away> lame
Feb 17 18:45:26 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 18:47:41 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: mac-n-jack from the seattle area is one of my favorites
Feb 17 18:48:43 <beewoolie-away> uBrew is popular up here.  You're not going to get much more mileage about beer from me.  I can't drink it.  Makes me ill.  I have to stick with the hard stuff.
Feb 17 18:49:05 <prpplague> ahh
Feb 17 18:49:15 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: i thought you were in the seattle area?
Feb 17 18:49:40 <beewoolie-away> prpplague: I am.  Right next to downtown.
Feb 17 18:52:38 <jacques> i had some beer last night
Feb 17 18:52:42 <jacques> maybe too much
Feb 17 18:52:47 <jacques> not feeling 100%
Feb 17 18:53:24 <jacques> microbrewing is popular in oregon too apparently
Feb 17 18:58:59 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: hales ales and big time
Feb 17 18:59:11 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: those are pretty decent places
Feb 17 18:59:28 <beewoolie-away> I think it has to do with the gloomy weather.
Feb 17 18:59:35 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: there is a great pakastany restaurant around the corner from hales ales
Feb 17 18:59:49 <beewoolie-away> Although oregon takes the cake.  There are movie theaters there that serve beer and pizza.
Feb 17 19:00:01 <beewoolie-away> Hales in Fremont?
Feb 17 19:00:32 <prpplague> yea
Feb 17 19:00:50 <prpplague> there are some great little bars on ahora, hehe
Feb 17 19:03:31 <beewoolie-away> You like aurora do you?  That where the ladies hang out.
Feb 17 19:03:48 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 19:03:58 <prpplague> just like the bars
Feb 17 19:04:12 <prpplague> rough road though
Feb 17 19:04:20 <prpplague> lots of druggs and hookers
Feb 17 19:04:37 <prpplague> had to defend myself on more than one occasion there
Feb 17 19:12:08 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: where you based out of? renton? heheh
Feb 17 19:12:20 <beewoolie-away> Near to downtown
Feb 17 19:15:11 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: that was a joke
Feb 17 19:15:27 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: don't you seattlites joke about the ppl from renton?
Feb 17 19:17:15 <beewoolie-away> RENTEN
Feb 17 19:19:02 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 19:20:11 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: http://www.abcsinc.com/tcsx1/pics/folder2/small-dsc00017.jpg
Feb 17 19:20:42 <prpplague> http://www.abcsinc.com/tcsx1/pics/folder2/small-dsc00013.jpg
Feb 17 19:20:43 <beewoolie-away> Nice view, eh?
Feb 17 19:21:01 <beewoolie-away> Too bad about the wires.
Feb 17 19:22:45 <prpplague> http://www.abcsinc.com/tcsx1/pics/folder1/small-dsc00047.jpg
Feb 17 19:22:57 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea i considered using gimp to take them out
Feb 17 19:23:18 <beewoolie-away> I can't say I've ever seen BIG STAR.
Feb 17 19:23:29 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 19:23:34 <prpplague> down there off of 99
Feb 17 19:23:47 <prpplague> catty corner to that nasty pancake house
Feb 17 19:23:49 <beewoolie-away> Believe it or not, I don't spend much time on 99
Feb 17 19:24:39 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea i didn't want to either, just was a central place to stay for the jobs i needed to do
Feb 17 19:24:55 <beewoolie-away> It is cheap.  RENTEN is cheaper, tho.
Feb 17 19:25:07 <beewoolie-away> And there's a Fry's.
Feb 17 19:25:12 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea but that is a long drive to marysville
Feb 17 19:25:32 <beewoolie-away> You could have stayed in Mukilteo.
Feb 17 19:26:49 <prpplague> don't recall that name, let me look
Feb 17 19:27:10 <prpplague> ahh then that would be a long drive to the other end, i.e. renton
Feb 17 19:27:19 <prpplague> i had to be in the center hehe
Feb 17 19:27:53 <beewoolie-away> too bad.  There are some cheap places in the U district.
Feb 17 19:28:09 <prpplague> renton, everett, marysville,bellevue,kirkland,kenmore
Feb 17 19:28:25 <beewoolie-away> It is about as central as 99
Feb 17 19:28:59 <prpplague> hehe, but the office i was working at was only about 5 blocks from 99
Feb 17 19:29:35 <beewoolie-away> I'd rather walk futher
Feb 17 19:29:47 <prpplague> its was such a pleasure installing linux servers in m$ country
Feb 17 19:30:01 <prpplague> walk? hehe, i had a rental car, hehe
Feb 17 19:30:24 <beewoolie-away> You drove 5 blocks?  And wouldn't drive 15?  That's wierd.
Feb 17 19:31:05 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: hehe, like i said, i was installing servers all over the seattle area, i might be at 5 different stores in one evening
Feb 17 19:31:17 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: spent almost 45 days there 
Feb 17 19:31:25 <beewoolie-away> Are they still using them?
Feb 17 19:31:30 <prpplague> yea
Feb 17 19:32:01 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: they just upgraded the servers to quad xeons a few months back
Feb 17 19:32:14 <beewoolie-away> Whoa.  What is the client?
Feb 17 19:32:27 <prpplague> dunn lumber is one of them
Feb 17 19:32:32 <beewoolie-away> Nice.
Feb 17 19:32:36 <prpplague> i can't comment on the others
Feb 17 19:32:46 <beewoolie-away> Those guys are all right once they get the customer service part right.
Feb 17 19:33:01 <beewoolie-away> Top secret.  I got your back.
Feb 17 19:33:32 <prpplague> hehe, that was the only bad thing, they didn't want anyone to know they are running linux, hehe
Feb 17 19:34:06 <prpplague> yea dunn lumber has some customer service issues
Feb 17 19:34:08 <beewoolie-away> There was a recent report from one of the big financial firms.  They consider Linux on par with Windows.
Feb 17 19:34:22 <beewoolie-away> At least they're local.
Feb 17 19:34:44 <prpplague> yea, this was 3 years ago, so they were a little shy
Feb 17 19:35:04 * dyoung-web slithers about
Feb 17 19:35:16 <beewoolie-away> dyoung-web: hey there
Feb 17 19:35:30 <dyoung-web> morning.
Feb 17 19:36:34 * prpplague steps instintivaly on anything that slithers
Feb 17 19:38:13 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: i'll be contracting with this company - http://www.bsandtco.com/about_us.cfm
Feb 17 19:39:10 <ka6sox> dyoung-web: catch you from home....headed that way
Feb 17 19:39:18 <beewoolie-away> Looks like a big conglomerate.
Feb 17 19:39:31 <beewoolie-away> ka6sox: later.
Feb 17 19:39:32 <dyoung-web> maybe theyre owned by M$
Feb 17 19:39:36 <dyoung-web> ka6sox ok
Feb 17 19:40:11 <ka6sox> food and then home with PCB running in the iBook
Feb 17 19:40:34 <beewoolie-away> dyoung-web: I read an interesting article by a financial journalist.  He says that MS stinks and is probably rotting from the inside.  it might take a while for the methane pressure to build enough for it to explode.
Feb 17 19:41:15 <dyoung-web> heh
Feb 17 19:41:51 <dyoung-web> I was reading something in I think it was the new economist about outsourcing
Feb 17 19:42:11 <dyoung-web> and the failure of US companies to properly address the issue.
Feb 17 19:42:35 <beewoolie-away> they don't really care.  Capital is amoral.
Feb 17 19:45:52 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, they are the biggest company on the island
Feb 17 19:47:16 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: this is the other one - http://www.neal-and-massy.com/test/neal-massy/history.htm
Feb 17 19:47:32 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: they are on the next island over trinidad
Feb 17 19:48:05 <beewoolie-away> These are in the bag?
Feb 17 19:49:25 <prpplague> ??
Feb 17 19:49:35 <prpplague> sorry i do not understand the question
Feb 17 19:49:53 <beewoolie-away> These are contracts you already have?
Feb 17 19:50:10 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 19:50:28 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: will be doing there planning for OSS 
Feb 17 19:50:36 <beewoolie-away> Good work.  Are you outsourced IT?
Feb 17 19:50:43 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: also be consulting with the .gov on both islands
Feb 17 19:50:47 <dyoung-web> Woo
Feb 17 19:51:27 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: i won't be doing IT directly
Feb 17 19:51:28 <dyoung-web> I need a OSS type job too.
Feb 17 19:51:39 <dyoung-web> I'm getting tired of "how come I cant print"
Feb 17 19:51:53 <beewoolie-away> I do a little of that stuff.  It isn't my main gig, tho.
Feb 17 19:52:01 <beewoolie-away> dyoung-web: I hear your pain.
Feb 17 19:52:41 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, not really mine either but the pay is _good_ and its an excuse to move
Feb 17 19:52:43 <beewoolie-away> I won't take any of those MSW jobs any more.  Too much anguish.
Feb 17 19:52:48 <dyoung-web> Its not even in my job description; but they figure, "hey, he works with computer, he *must* know the answer...."
Feb 17 19:53:03 <beewoolie-away> I know.  Those pay scales are outrageous.
Feb 17 19:54:59 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 19:55:16 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: lots of little stuff , like moving them to OpenOffice
Feb 17 19:55:26 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: linux thinclients and POS
Feb 17 19:55:40 <beewoolie-away> This is the right time for it.
Feb 17 19:55:45 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: m$ threatened both islands last year
Feb 17 19:55:57 <beewoolie-away> Ah.  they don't make friends that way.
Feb 17 19:56:53 <prpplague> nope
Feb 17 19:57:05 <beewoolie-away> I'd still like MS if they were such a bunch of bastards.
Feb 17 19:57:17 <beewoolie-away> Did you read that guy Martin's interview with Slashdot?
Feb 17 19:57:28 <beewoolie-away> It's the first time that it all made sense to me.
Feb 17 19:57:35 <beewoolie-away> He was asked about interoperability.
Feb 17 19:57:50 <beewoolie-away> He said that it is simple.  If a customer asks for it, then they do it.
Feb 17 19:57:53 <beewoolie-away> It's so plain.
Feb 17 19:58:11 <beewoolie-away> There's no money in interoperability, so they just don't do it.
Feb 17 19:58:27 <beewoolie-away> Makes sense from the POV of a capitalistic monster.
Feb 17 19:58:35 <beewoolie-away> Thing is, they're making enemies faster than friends.
Feb 17 19:58:50 <prpplague> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6619
Feb 17 19:58:57 <beewoolie-away> Gov's are saying, we'll use it (and be customers) if your formats are open.
Feb 17 19:59:14 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 19:59:19 <beewoolie-away> Is that you?
Feb 17 19:59:50 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: naw, just some info about their push
Feb 17 20:00:32 <beewoolie-away> MCSE is  laughable 
Feb 17 20:00:39 <beewoolie-away> I've read some of the test questions
Feb 17 20:00:42 <beewoolie-away> total crap
Feb 17 20:01:32 <dyoung-web> "Call the MS CSR and tell himi foo"
Feb 17 20:01:45 <dyoung-web> "Press the Big Red Button"
Feb 17 20:01:49 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:02:06 <prpplague> yea, they are trying hard to get out from under the m$ thumb
Feb 17 20:02:49 <beewoolie-away> the alternative aren't pretty because the market shunned them for so long.
Feb 17 20:03:04 <beewoolie-away> I remember when there was competition in the WP market.
Feb 17 20:03:16 <beewoolie-away> OO is OK for simple things, but it's got a lot of rough spots.
Feb 17 20:03:32 <beewoolie-away> ABIWord is cleaner, but still buggy.
Feb 17 20:03:43 <beewoolie-away> they're all close, though.
Feb 17 20:04:15 <beewoolie-away> prpplague: How did you hook up with the island folks?
Feb 17 20:04:22 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, OO will handle around 95% of the jobs there
Feb 17 20:04:43 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: my former employeer sold accounting software designed for island countries
Feb 17 20:04:49 <beewoolie-away> I'd be suprised if it didn't handle 100% of the jobs.  It's just not that pretty sometimes.
Feb 17 20:05:03 <beewoolie-away> That's a niche.
Feb 17 20:05:14 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, well, hehe, govs don't care about pretty, they want to see the bottom line, hehe
Feb 17 20:05:23 <beewoolie-away> True.
Feb 17 20:05:24 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: big niche
Feb 17 20:05:41 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: last year they had a profit of 11.5 million
Feb 17 20:05:47 <beewoolie-away> Not bad.
Feb 17 20:05:48 <prpplague> profit not sales
Feb 17 20:05:56 <beewoolie-away> I read that.  :-)
Feb 17 20:06:05 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:06:32 <beewoolie-away> Good kinda biz if you can find it.
Feb 17 20:06:38 <prpplague> i did alot of the trouble shooting for special installations
Feb 17 20:07:14 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea well my former employeers sure went spreading the money around
Feb 17 20:07:20 <prpplague> weren't
Feb 17 20:07:51 <prpplague> about 18 months ago they started really sticking it to the employees
Feb 17 20:09:26 <prpplague> they fired the engineer that was in charge of the hardware and software r&d
Feb 17 20:09:34 <prpplague> put a sales guy in charge
Feb 17 20:09:49 <prpplague> who promptly started firing ppl and cutting salaries
Feb 17 20:10:03 <prpplague> they droped the company health care
Feb 17 20:10:11 <prpplague> stopped their 401k donations
Feb 17 20:10:12 <beewoolie-away> with 11 mil in profit?
Feb 17 20:10:18 <prpplague> yea
Feb 17 20:10:37 <beewoolie-away> We all know how dumb that is.  Sacrificing the golden goose.
Feb 17 20:10:41 <beewoolie-away> MS is doing it too.
Feb 17 20:10:49 <prpplague> they went from about 250 employees down to about 75
Feb 17 20:10:52 <beewoolie-away> Is it a public company?
Feb 17 20:10:57 <prpplague> no, private
Feb 17 20:11:03 <beewoolie-away> Even more wierd.
Feb 17 20:11:26 <prpplague> they completely stopped all r&d
Feb 17 20:11:35 <beewoolie-away> Is it Linux sw?
Feb 17 20:11:39 <prpplague> yea
Feb 17 20:11:48 <prpplague> www.abcsinc.com
Feb 17 20:11:57 <beewoolie-away> Hmm.  Too bad.  It would be a nice way to edge them out.
Feb 17 20:12:13 <beewoolie-away> Is this the company with the little hw box?
Feb 17 20:12:22 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: the software ofcourse is propreitary
Feb 17 20:12:26 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea
Feb 17 20:12:35 <beewoolie-away> Sure, but the host is still important.
Feb 17 20:12:56 <beewoolie-away> I'm all for open source and all.  It doesn't mean that all endeavors will go that way.
Feb 17 20:13:17 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea well, the idiot they put in charge saw fit to putting all the new servers going out the door with rhat9
Feb 17 20:13:29 <beewoolie-away> Not a good plan.
Feb 17 20:13:29 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: right, i agree
Feb 17 20:13:53 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, now that they have no really linux gurus there, they are having all kinds of problems
Feb 17 20:13:59 <beewoolie-away> I noticed that Dunn was running Linux.  Now that I think about it.
Feb 17 20:14:23 <beewoolie-away> they have a special version for Islands?
Feb 17 20:14:25 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, they were a beta site for some thinclients
Feb 17 20:14:34 <prpplague> special linux?
Feb 17 20:14:58 <beewoolie-away> I thought you said they had special accounting SW for island countries.
Feb 17 20:15:07 <prpplague> yea, special accounting 
Feb 17 20:15:15 <prpplague> lots of different tax rules
Feb 17 20:15:26 <beewoolie-away> Is the SW any good?
Feb 17 20:15:39 <beewoolie-away> Hell I did this kind of stuff when I was 16.
Feb 17 20:15:44 <prpplague> plus handling things like duties, shipping via containers, and special reports to the .gov
Feb 17 20:15:47 <beewoolie-away> It was a real bore.
Feb 17 20:16:07 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea it can be
Feb 17 20:16:20 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: the software isn't bad
Feb 17 20:16:30 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: the database engine is actually pretty cool
Feb 17 20:16:37 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: i compiled it on arm 
Feb 17 20:16:52 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: the entire engine stripped on arm was only about 200k
Feb 17 20:17:24 <beewoolie-away> Not bad.  It should be small.  There isn't really much to do.  We were running on systems with 32KW of ram.
Feb 17 20:17:26 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: i tried to talk to them about open sourcing the engine
Feb 17 20:17:35 <beewoolie-away> That probably didn't go well.
Feb 17 20:18:15 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: no actually they were in the process of going OS when this new guy got put in charge of r&d
Feb 17 20:18:53 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: if it had gone OS it would have been a hot item for embedded devices
Feb 17 20:19:14 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: its alot better than db* or sqlite
Feb 17 20:19:59 <beewoolie-away> IMHO, people often think they need DBs when they don't.  Even the OE guys are caught in that trap.
Feb 17 20:20:00 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: problem is now there is no one doing any dev, so its getting bit rot
Feb 17 20:20:09 <prpplague> yea
Feb 17 20:20:28 <prpplague> this would be nice for handhelds to do batch jobs, like a delivery guy, 
Feb 17 20:20:30 <beewoolie-away> If you need one, you'll know.  that's my motto .  Assume you don't.
Feb 17 20:20:41 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:20:44 <dyoung-web> DB?
Feb 17 20:20:48 <prpplague> database
Feb 17 20:20:50 <dyoung-web> Database?
Feb 17 20:21:12 <beewoolie-away> DBs are great for associating information where you need to normalize the data.  Other than that, stick with data structures.
Feb 17 20:21:43 <beewoolie-away> In the parser I wrote for OE (BitBake parser) I used an AVL tree container.  Key->value.
Feb 17 20:21:56 <beewoolie-away> That takes care of 90% of the tasks people put to DBs.
Feb 17 20:22:06 <beewoolie-away> </rant>
Feb 17 20:22:22 <prpplague> yea the unique thing about this db, is that it has a psuedo code language
Feb 17 20:22:38 <prpplague> extremely easy to write an accounting apps for it
Feb 17 20:22:55 <beewoolie-away> I've ceased to be impressed by languages.
Feb 17 20:23:00 <prpplague> you can crank out a custom POS app in about 1/2 hour
Feb 17 20:23:07 <beewoolie-away> Except for Portuguese.
Feb 17 20:23:10 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:23:28 <dyoung-web> I can crank out a Piece of Sh1T app in about 1/2 hr too. ;-)
Feb 17 20:23:45 <dyoung-web> sorry I couldnt resist...
Feb 17 20:23:46 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:23:49 <beewoolie-away> I don't doubt it.  Get enough of the stock pieces right, and that is always easy.
Feb 17 20:24:12 * beewoolie-away grins
Feb 17 20:24:13 <prpplague> you'd be surprised
Feb 17 20:24:20 <beewoolie-away> I don't think so.
Feb 17 20:24:27 <beewoolie-away> I've seen way to many languages.
Feb 17 20:24:29 <prpplague> thats how this guy makes his money
Feb 17 20:24:40 <prpplague> charges for 100 hours of coding and spends about 1
Feb 17 20:24:55 <beewoolie-away> so do i.
Feb 17 20:24:59 <beewoolie-away> just kidding.
Feb 17 20:25:09 <prpplague> hehe
Feb 17 20:25:10 * dyoung-web blinks
Feb 17 20:25:19 <beewoolie-away> I'm just not that fascinated with making money,
Feb 17 20:25:28 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea, neither am i
Feb 17 20:25:29 <dyoung-web> When I consult there is always wiggle room.
Feb 17 20:25:32 <beewoolie-away> Especially the dishonesty that some people put into the endeavor.
Feb 17 20:25:38 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: as long as i have the bills paid and some money for beer
Feb 17 20:25:39 <beewoolie-away> better be.
Feb 17 20:26:02 <dyoung-web> I call it "scope creep protection".
Feb 17 20:26:23 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: yea the last straw for me was when the moron manager asked me to insert an intentional bug so he could charge for the fix
Feb 17 20:26:35 <dyoung-web> ow.  thats just low.
Feb 17 20:26:53 <prpplague> well, i'm out of here for this even
Feb 17 20:26:56 <prpplague> later folks
Feb 17 20:27:00 <beewoolie-away> later
Feb 17 20:27:02 <dyoung-web> night
Feb 17 20:27:06 <dyoung-web> hi qbot
Feb 17 20:27:11 <prpplague> beewoolie-away: thanks again for your patience today
Feb 17 20:27:14 <prpplague> night
Feb 17 20:27:29 <beewoolie-away> damn.  Some bad people he work(s)(ed) for
Feb 17 20:27:57 <dyoung-web> ya,..
Feb 17 20:31:41 <beewoolie-away> I see that kind of activity and you cannot catch me on the way to the door.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 17 23:59:56 2005