**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 23 02:59:57 2005 Oct 23 05:36:17 is there a guaranteed minimum jtag scan rate? Oct 23 05:46:22 lennert: You mean a JTAG CLK frequency which every chip must be able to handle ? Oct 23 05:46:38 if so: not that i am aware of Oct 23 05:46:54 yeah Oct 23 05:47:01 i looked in the jtag specs but couldn't find any Oct 23 05:48:27 this also depends on electrical parameters of the onboard JTAG connection. Oct 23 05:48:57 I it is definitively important that You can run at lower frequencies as well. Oct 23 05:54:33 yes Oct 23 05:54:54 i thought about just scanning the IDCODEs at low speed, and then look in a table to see what the max speed of the slowest component in the chain is Oct 23 05:55:21 if there's any component in the chain that you don't know, stay at 'low speed' Oct 23 05:55:34 but since there's no minimum guaranteed speed.. Oct 23 06:13:29 <[g2]> ep1220-log how's the proto's ? Oct 23 06:14:17 <[g2]> or how are the proto's :) Oct 23 10:37:04 I think its best here. Oct 23 10:37:05 hmm? Oct 23 10:37:07 k Oct 23 10:37:10 Code or scripts? Oct 23 10:37:18 what I have is s3projects.org Oct 23 10:37:29 Are you going to put any code or scripts into it though? Oct 23 10:37:36 If so then use something like mediawiki or docuwiki Oct 23 10:37:46 code & scripts are a real PITA to format in pmwiki Oct 23 10:37:49 that is a good question Oct 23 10:38:12 we should ask the people here..as they will be the contributers. Oct 23 10:38:15 Mediawiki does have the advantage that you have to create a user to add/create pages Oct 23 10:38:29 okay I like that. Oct 23 10:38:54 I would like to be able to have code snippets in the wiki Oct 23 10:39:02 Use mediawiki or docuwiki then Oct 23 10:39:22 you need a DB for mediawiki. no idea about docuwiki Oct 23 10:39:32 I have mysql running. Oct 23 10:39:39 and also DB Oct 23 10:40:08 mediawiki is the thing that runs wikipedia? Oct 23 10:40:11 Yes Oct 23 10:40:14 k Oct 23 10:40:34 Needs MySQL and PHP Oct 23 10:40:39 got both Oct 23 10:40:46 I know Oct 23 10:41:32 That's my recommendation anyway Oct 23 10:41:40 I've been hesitating setting it up until I spoke to you about this because its a PITA to migrate wikis Oct 23 10:41:40 If you won't put any code or scripts into it then pmwiki is fine Oct 23 10:41:48 Migrate? Oct 23 10:41:51 What are we migrating?? Oct 23 10:41:55 nothing Oct 23 10:42:09 if I started with one wiki and found out it was the wrong one Oct 23 10:42:14 ah Oct 23 10:42:27 I would have started off with mediawiki but pmwiki was already installed for nslu2 Oct 23 10:42:32 I knew the pain of formatting scripts etc. Oct 23 10:42:46 okay we have a chance to do it right here! Oct 23 10:42:46 :) Oct 23 10:43:07 looks like I need to get better at mysql :) Oct 23 10:43:19 later today I'll look into how to set it up. Oct 23 10:43:24 (mediawiki) Oct 23 10:43:37 Install phpmyadmin Oct 23 10:43:40 It'll make it easier Oct 23 10:43:44 k Oct 23 10:44:37 I know that mediawiki handles picture files etc but can you store actual code (released stuff not sccs style) Oct 23 10:44:56 You put it into the page Oct 23 10:44:58 You don't upload it Oct 23 10:45:10 okay so its going to be copy/paste? Oct 23 10:45:15 The formatting however isn't quite as braindead as pmwiki Oct 23 10:45:17 Yes Oct 23 10:45:41 okay but I could use external links to download entire programs too... Oct 23 10:46:08 will this run on a PIII-800/512mb/80GB machine? Oct 23 10:46:23 the external links would have to done manually Oct 23 10:46:31 and by an admin who can upload scripts Oct 23 10:46:44 or you could do it by the user but it'd mean writing some extra stuff to handle that Oct 23 10:46:46 Don't see why not.... Oct 23 10:47:07 thanks... Oct 23 10:47:19 I knew that you would have this answer ;) Oct 23 10:48:10 Main thing is dealing with assholes Oct 23 10:48:18 *cough* StealhMatt *cough* Oct 23 10:50:56 I think we can deal with that if we have to...I'm told that the latest version of mediawiki deals with that :) Oct 23 10:51:19 (@ least I hope so!) Oct 23 10:51:34 isn't s3projects a bit specific? Oct 23 10:52:19 ya...but nobody except us knows what that means :( Oct 23 10:52:46 its generic enough to be used for other things. Oct 23 10:53:03 ? Oct 23 10:53:05 how? Oct 23 10:53:12 I take it this is going to be FPGA stuff? Oct 23 10:55:17 hi Oct 23 10:56:01 someone knows the dreambox ? Oct 23 10:56:21 Hi Oct 23 10:56:27 I know what one is and that's all. Why? Oct 23 10:56:56 i want to know if it's possible Oct 23 10:57:06 erm Oct 23 10:57:12 to have canalsat whith that Oct 23 10:57:13 the dreambox is possible yes... Oct 23 10:57:38 No clue Oct 23 10:58:03 ok thx Oct 23 10:58:25 and with coship ? Oct 23 10:58:46 We're not a satellite channel you know... Oct 23 10:58:49 sorry, i'm lent Oct 23 10:59:28 you're talking about what here ? Oct 23 11:00:04 JTAG. Debugging and reprogramming stuff basically Oct 23 11:00:21 i see Oct 23 11:00:26 pro Oct 23 11:00:49 why the best demo for you ? Oct 23 11:01:27 "wich" Oct 23 11:01:37 huh? I don't understand your question Oct 23 11:02:00 wich demo is the best for hacking ? Oct 23 11:02:09 demo? Oct 23 11:02:26 demodulator Oct 23 11:02:41 We're nothing at all to do with satellite reception at all Oct 23 11:02:50 we build tools for working with embedded processors...not satellite receivers. Oct 23 11:03:09 ok Oct 23 11:03:09 we have no knowledge of satellite demodulators. Oct 23 11:03:12 sorry Oct 23 11:03:28 np Oct 23 11:03:30 np Oct 23 11:03:49 it's because on the topic there are bootloader Oct 23 11:04:07 it's means "flash" Oct 23 11:04:09 ooh Oct 23 11:04:11 no Oct 23 11:04:16 we use it the same way Oct 23 11:04:24 but for embedded processors Oct 23 11:04:48 NAS boxes, routers etc. Oct 23 11:05:05 i see Oct 23 11:05:17 thx Oct 23 11:05:26 no problem. Oct 23 11:05:28 you are kindness Oct 23 11:05:51 bye Oct 23 11:05:59 Bye Oct 23 11:06:49 c4n j00 h4ck my b0x y0 Oct 23 11:07:01 h3h Oct 23 11:07:50 hey! Oct 23 11:07:53 hey! Oct 23 11:07:57 it's me again Oct 23 11:08:00 Hi Oct 23 11:08:17 you know a channel where talking about sat Oct 23 11:08:19 ? Oct 23 11:08:24 Nope sorry Oct 23 11:08:33 damn! Oct 23 11:08:33 nope sorry Oct 23 11:08:37 Try efnet? Oct 23 11:08:49 or undernet Oct 23 11:08:52 ok Oct 23 11:08:56 thx Oct 23 11:08:58 np Oct 23 11:09:02 bye Oct 23 11:09:04 bybe Oct 23 11:09:06 bye Oct 23 11:09:43 sayonara! Oct 23 11:10:19 h3'77 b3 b4ck s00n Oct 23 11:10:22 anyway, what happens if I want to use a Virtex II Pro? :) Oct 23 11:10:27 We going to have to rename the website? Oct 23 11:10:39 Tiersten: i guess.. Oct 23 11:10:42 no.... Oct 23 11:11:12 okay lets come up with something more generic...but doesnt' have JTAG in it... Oct 23 11:11:47 or bootloader Oct 23 11:12:05 kick-ass-projects.org :P Oct 23 11:12:11 Sounds good to me Oct 23 11:12:26 maybe something without 'ass' in it Oct 23 11:12:35 heh Oct 23 11:13:13 H4x0rPr0j3ctS.org Oct 23 11:13:24 fpga4fun.com already exists so we can't do anything along those lines Oct 23 11:13:33 Although we could start up #OpenPong Oct 23 11:13:38 lol Oct 23 11:13:41 vhdl4fun? Oct 23 11:13:42 openpong Oct 23 11:13:50 ka6sox: what if we want to do verilog? Oct 23 11:13:57 SystemC? Oct 23 11:14:09 Tiersten: i'm actually working on a vt100 emulator for the spartan3 board... Oct 23 11:14:11 #openvt100 Oct 23 11:14:16 What if you're lennert and want to do it by twiddling bits directly? Oct 23 11:14:27 hehe Oct 23 11:14:31 that's possible, actually Oct 23 11:15:02 How far did your reverse engineering attempt on the bitstream go BTW? Oct 23 11:15:15 still ongoing :) Oct 23 11:15:29 i have the ram and clbs mapped out Oct 23 11:15:33 okay so what name represents what we want to do? Oct 23 11:15:33 but i can't make sense of the routing yet Oct 23 11:16:17 Once you work out the routing then you've pretty much done it all Oct 23 11:16:19 we can think about this...rain locker calls. Oct 23 11:16:25 rain locker? Oct 23 11:16:30 shower? Oct 23 11:16:45 s3projects is fine for now, i think Oct 23 11:16:56 yeah Oct 23 11:17:21 okay then I'll set about to getting wikimedia setup. Oct 23 11:17:30 after I install phpmyadmin! Oct 23 11:18:01 okay! Oct 23 11:18:16 dyoung will be happy :) Oct 23 11:18:20 happy? Oct 23 11:18:23 He's always happy Oct 23 11:18:27 Apart from when you're talking about PAM Oct 23 11:18:42 dyoung: PAM can BITE me Oct 23 11:18:48 lol Oct 23 11:19:12 exactly Oct 23 12:27:26 to divide a clock by two, it's not a good idea to clock a t-flipflop with the original clock and use the Q output, right? Oct 23 12:28:30 lots of vhdl stuff does that, but it doesn't look kosher to me Oct 23 13:42:08 lennert, Q or Qbar Oct 23 13:42:18 depending on what phase you want Oct 23 13:42:45 well Oct 23 13:42:49 the Q output will have some skew Oct 23 13:43:16 yes Oct 23 13:43:22 not avoidable. Oct 23 13:43:30 what if you have an 'enable' output Oct 23 13:43:39 (they have clock blocks that take care of that...use them instead. Oct 23 13:43:41 and then clock the second flipflop with the original clock, but use that enable as input Oct 23 13:43:48 yeah, the DCMs Oct 23 13:43:53 yep Oct 23 13:43:54 but i've seen stuff like.. Oct 23 13:44:05 'to divide a clock by 256, use 8 t flipflops in series' Oct 23 13:44:08 that's just evil Oct 23 13:44:16 better use an 8-bit up counter then Oct 23 13:44:29 at least all the bits will flip at the same time Oct 23 13:44:34 you will see those examples but they don't have that construct Oct 23 13:44:42 in the Xilinx stuff you do. Oct 23 13:44:50 Altera does it a different way. Oct 23 13:44:58 don't have which construct? Oct 23 13:45:09 the 8-bit up counter Oct 23 13:45:16 (older implementations) Oct 23 13:45:23 huh? Oct 23 13:45:27 modern stuffs will be able to handle it. Oct 23 13:45:30 # Counters : 9 Oct 23 13:45:30 10-bit up counter : 2 Oct 23 13:45:30 10-bit updown counter : 1 Oct 23 13:45:30 15-bit up counter : 1 Oct 23 13:45:39 yes...modern stuffs can. Oct 23 13:45:40 oh, you mean older chips? Oct 23 13:45:42 yeah, ok Oct 23 13:45:44 ya Oct 23 13:45:48 if you don't have an up counter, you can do it by hand Oct 23 13:46:17 i.e. D input = D output ^ previous Q output Oct 23 13:46:34 still better than connecting the Q output to the next CLK input Oct 23 13:46:49 d flipflops are your friend. Oct 23 13:47:26 all i'm saying that you shouldn't use the Q output as a clock input if you can avoid it, right or no? Oct 23 13:48:24 I don't use Q outputs as clocks unless I can't avoid it. Oct 23 13:48:31 there are fanout issues. Oct 23 13:50:08 for the /256 that you are talking about a 8 bit counter (with overflow) is what I use. Oct 23 13:51:58 i guess i'm just not explaining myself clearly enough Oct 23 13:54:43 in general it is okay to use the output of a Flipflop to clock another gate. Oct 23 13:54:59 the big issues come in Skew and fanout. Oct 23 14:01:08 does that answer it? or am i still missing it? Oct 23 14:01:46 maybe i'm still missing it Oct 23 14:01:57 i'm kind of waiting for the light bulb to go on Oct 23 14:02:05 thanks for your answers so far Oct 23 14:02:43 skew is usually only an issue when you are trying to recombine answers from other gates somewhere down the line. Oct 23 14:03:01 or if you have parallel bus type activity. Oct 23 14:10:55 Or if you're an autiophile equipment manufacturer and want to charge 50x as much for equipment :) Oct 23 14:11:40 Tiersten: the kind that also sells gold-plated fiber cable for higher fidelity? :) Oct 23 14:12:20 Nah. The ones that sell gold plated oxygen free copper mains leads Oct 23 14:13:03 i want my Fe2O3 :( Oct 23 14:13:09 heh Oct 23 14:16:06 My toy budget is a bit low at the moment so I can't get whatever it is you guys are planning on making Oct 23 14:16:22 i'm still working on the spartan3 board Oct 23 14:16:29 the v2pro board is still on order Oct 23 14:17:14 Tiersten: you have the spartan3 board? Oct 23 14:18:06 I've got a spartan 3 board but it's not the same as the ones you've got Oct 23 14:18:15 The one I've got is the older model and doesn't have the RAM Oct 23 14:18:32 is it an xc3s200 though? Oct 23 14:18:42 does it also have the xcf02s flash? Oct 23 14:18:59 No flash Oct 23 14:19:23 It's just a 200K S3 on a PCB Oct 23 14:19:24 jtag? Oct 23 14:19:27 okay Oct 23 14:19:44 anything else? vga, serial? Oct 23 14:20:34 Obviously it has JTAG :) Oct 23 14:20:41 Just serial Oct 23 14:20:57 darn, so no pong for you :) Oct 23 14:21:11 Tiersten: it could have had just their {master,slave} {serial,parallel} config stuff Oct 23 14:22:05 True Oct 23 14:26:58 The older boards are really cheap now - http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Older.cfm Oct 23 14:28:12 still waiting for the IIIe to come out ;( Oct 23 14:28:19 Tiersten: you have the D2 board? Oct 23 14:28:23 Yeah Oct 23 14:29:12 Not sure why but I've got one of those as well *shrug* Oct 23 14:29:23 I think I used it once Oct 23 14:29:38 Tiersten: it has lots of IOs exposed Oct 23 14:30:05 Yeah Oct 23 14:33:31 mine doesn't have too many IOs exposed Oct 23 15:04:45 whee Oct 23 15:04:57 we can make grayscales with the spartan3 board with pulse width modulation Oct 23 15:05:16 whee! Oct 23 18:43:36 sop Oct 23 18:43:39 so, even Oct 23 18:43:45 i'm trying to get the dcm to work Oct 23 18:43:50 and i'm having a problem with the feedback path Oct 23 18:44:12 i'm squeezing the CLKFX output through a bufg back into the CLKFB input of the dcm, and i get: Oct 23 18:44:18 ERROR:PhysDesignRules:740 - Invalid DCM configuration. The DCM comp Oct 23 18:44:18 generate_pixel_clock has CLKFB signal driven by the CLKFX pin which is not Oct 23 18:44:18 allowed. Oct 23 18:44:29 but i do _not_ have clkfx looped back to clkfb directly. Oct 23 18:44:42 oh Oct 23 18:44:54 d'oh Oct 23 18:44:55 sorry Oct 23 18:46:53 clkfx is multiplied so that won't work Oct 23 18:47:06 i have to use clk0, but since i don't use the 1:1 clock, it doesn't matter Oct 23 18:52:42 any idea why it gives me this all the time: Oct 23 18:52:43 INFO:PhysDesignRules:772 - To achieve optimal frequency synthesis performance Oct 23 18:52:43 with the CLKFX and CLKFX180 outputs of the DCM comp Oct 23 18:52:43 generate_pixel_clock/generate_pixel_clock, consult the device Interactive Oct 23 18:52:43 Data Sheet. Oct 23 18:52:46 ? Oct 23 19:41:58 whee, pong in supervga Oct 23 19:42:22 now all we need is some sound when the ball hits something Oct 23 19:42:37 but i guess i can implement that by sending a Ctrl-G over the serial port to a minicom on the pc side :P Oct 23 22:13:51 whee! Oct 24 00:19:21 morning ep1220 Oct 24 00:19:32 morning Oct 24 00:20:05 a late night for You, again ? Oct 24 00:20:19 ya.... Oct 24 00:20:33 very tired... Oct 24 00:20:42 server troubles of last week sorted out ? Oct 24 00:21:05 I think so... Oct 24 00:21:13 i was just about heating up the soldering iron Oct 24 00:21:39 excellent. Oct 24 00:23:43 send pictures? Oct 24 00:24:02 of blank board and also assembled ones? Oct 24 00:24:13 not yet. will do this afertnoon Oct 24 00:24:20 assembly just starts .. Oct 24 00:24:32 okay I let you do that...cya later! Oct 24 00:24:41 good night **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 24 02:59:57 2005