**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 10 02:59:56 2006
Jan 10 10:01:56 <kas11> [g2] it appears my bookmarks.html went to /dev/null when I got irritated about how Ubuntu dealt with my partition table and dumped it again in favor of Fedora...please send me the link to you gizmo again when you get a chance ;)
Jan 10 10:03:14 <lennert> [g2]: www.giantshoulderinc.com ?
Jan 10 10:03:17 <lennert> whoops
Jan 10 10:03:22 <lennert> ka6sox: www.giantshoulderinc.com ?
Jan 10 10:03:26 <lennert> waaaaah
Jan 10 10:03:30 <lennert> kas11: www.giantshoulderinc.com ?
Jan 10 10:03:33 <lennert> there
Jan 10 10:03:37 <kas11> thanks, lennert :)
Jan 10 10:04:11 <ByronT> "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again....."
Jan 10 10:04:34 <lennert> ByronT: indeed :)
Jan 10 10:04:36 <lennert> kas11: np
Jan 10 10:06:48 <kas11> 'tis what I get for buying a cheap,flakey usb enclosure and stuffing a 300 gb drive in it :(
Jan 10 10:08:23 <[g2]> lennert that's it thx
Jan 10 10:08:30 <[g2]> hey kas11 
Jan 10 10:08:39 <kas11> ;) @ [g2]
Jan 10 10:08:42 <lennert> yes, hello kas11, by the way
Jan 10 10:08:51 * lennert forgets his good manners when he's hacking
Jan 10 10:09:06 <kas11> hiya, lennert...nice to see ya'll
Jan 10 10:09:07 <[g2]> lennert has very good manners 
Jan 10 10:09:20 <kas11> indeed @ [g2]
Jan 10 10:09:32 <lennert> [g2]: that's just a rumor
Jan 10 10:11:55 <lennert> i'm also trying to rid my parents-in-law's pc from spyware, adware, viruses and trojans, and that's proving more fun than i seem to be able to handle at once
Jan 10 10:12:12 <kas11> I see someone got ambitious and hacked the x1205 driver into shape and submitted it
Jan 10 10:14:23 <kas11> *LOL* @ lennert ... when someone asks me to work on a windoze box, I tell them I am trying to quit smoking so I can't handle the frustration...you can insert any other vice as appropriate :)
Jan 10 10:15:08 <lennert> i could do that, but there's noone else here that can do it
Jan 10 10:15:15 <lennert> family-in-law doesn't speak english, you see
Jan 10 10:15:34 <lennert> and well.. i do use this box every now and then so i'd like it to be clean :)
Jan 10 10:15:41 <kas11> drinking might work too...but in my case nobody would believe it ;)
Jan 10 10:15:47 <lennert> but yeah, i've been busy for about seven hours now
Jan 10 10:15:57 <lennert> kas11: why, you don't drink, or you'll never stop drinking? :)
Jan 10 10:16:10 <lennert> if you say here you're trying to stop drinking, they'll pour you one
Jan 10 10:16:21 <lennert> and say "let's drink to your last drink" or somesuch
Jan 10 10:17:22 <vmaster> heh, let's go to lithuania then, right?
Jan 10 10:17:27 <kas11> I only drink occasionally....but only I know that...and how often occasions come up *grin*
Jan 10 10:18:44 <lennert> kas11: hehe
Jan 10 10:19:27 <lennert> vmaster: you don't need that as an excuse though? :)
Jan 10 10:21:30 <vmaster> heh, no, but i'm sure it helps
Jan 10 10:22:44 <lennert> cold winters is a good excuse too
Jan 10 10:38:12 <[g2]> time to get a little exercise
Jan 10 10:38:15 <[g2]> bbiab
Jan 10 10:38:40 <[g2]> lennert BTW are you running grouter our ulogd 2.0 at all ?
Jan 10 10:45:16 <lennert> [g2]: sorry?
Jan 10 12:17:31 <ka6sox> hiya kas11 
Jan 10 12:18:39 <kas11> hey ka6sox ;)
Jan 10 12:18:51 <ka6sox> good to see ya :)
Jan 10 12:20:57 <[g2]> lennert do you use netfilter at all ?
Jan 10 12:21:06 <[g2]> are just the NPEs
Jan 10 12:21:12 <[g2]> s/are/or/
Jan 10 12:21:13 <purl> [g2] meant: or just the NPEs
Jan 10 12:21:22 <lennert> yes, i use netfilter on my home router
Jan 10 12:21:30 <lennert> but i don't use ulogd since i don't log firewall stuff
Jan 10 12:21:31 <lennert> it's useless
Jan 10 12:21:36 <lennert> there's so much nonsense coming in
Jan 10 12:21:49 <[g2]> there's a new ulogd 2.0
Jan 10 12:21:54 <lennert> better just DROP those packets and don't let them clutter your log files
Jan 10 12:22:02 <[g2]> nod on the DROP
Jan 10 12:22:03 <lennert> okay, how is it better/different?
Jan 10 12:22:45 <[g2]> well I didn't use the old ulogd, but they've got support for tracking connections and byte counts etc... per source
Jan 10 12:23:16 <[g2]> grouter is Harald's 2.6.x based version of a tiny firewall router
Jan 10 12:23:22 <[g2]> fits in 15MB flash
Jan 10 12:23:38 <lennert> ah, nice
Jan 10 12:23:40 <[g2]> He has it running on the Warp boards
Jan 10 12:23:44 <lennert> i hope to see harald at fosdem
Jan 10 12:23:46 <lennert> what is warp?
Jan 10 12:23:50 * lennert clueless n00b
Jan 10 12:23:51 <[g2]> I'm gonna bring it up on the Loft
Jan 10 12:24:00 <[g2]> it's the PC Engines board
Jan 10 12:24:12 <[g2]> MIPS based irrc
Jan 10 12:24:15 <[g2]> iirc
Jan 10 12:24:24 <[g2]> MIPS based irrc
Jan 10 12:24:30 <[g2]> s/irrc/iirc/
Jan 10 12:24:30 <lennert> s/irrc/iirc/
Jan 10 12:24:31 <purl> [g2] meant: MIPS based iirc
Jan 10 12:24:31 <purl> lennert meant: what is warp?
Jan 10 12:24:38 <bullet> wrap board? that's a geode, afaik
Jan 10 12:24:45 <[g2]> thx purl
Jan 10 12:24:50 <lennert> wrap is a geode
Jan 10 12:24:54 <lennert> yes
Jan 10 12:24:58 <lennert> http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm
Jan 10 12:25:03 <lennert> bullet: thx
Jan 10 12:25:13 <[g2]> ok geode yeah
Jan 10 12:25:14 * kas11 is gld i typ ad spel better tan [g2]
Jan 10 12:25:24 <[g2]> heh
Jan 10 12:25:40 * [g2] is _glad_ you guys and gal still talk to me at _all_ !
Jan 10 12:25:45 * lennert dun no inglis wel aye der
Jan 10 12:26:56 * lennert curses this windows box
Jan 10 12:27:30 * kas11 shares lennert's pain
Jan 10 12:27:41 <lennert> kas11: thank you, thank you
Jan 10 12:27:46 <lennert> kas11: the alcohol does make it easier
Jan 10 12:28:08 <kas11> ROTFLMAO
Jan 10 12:28:16 * [g2] asks what's a windows box ?
Jan 10 12:31:39 * kas11 thinks its is something to grow flowers in
Jan 10 12:32:13 <lennert> kas11: indeed
Jan 10 12:32:44 <lennert> kas11: you ignore it for a while, and after a while, something beautiful has developed... or not
Jan 10 12:34:36 <kas11> especially if said box is equiped with one of those speedy Celerons...which are considered bull**** in these parts
Jan 10 12:35:38 <lennert> bull excrement?
Jan 10 12:36:59 <kas11> uh huh...but we be Athlon 64 snobs around here :)
Jan 10 12:38:06 <ka6sox> he he
Jan 10 12:38:20 * kas11 admits that finding workable Athlon 64-bit wireless drivers ain't much fun tho
Jan 10 12:38:24 <ka6sox> I have a Celery box that I'm going to  use as a main Server.
Jan 10 12:38:56 <[g2]> ka6sox get a Loft :)
Jan 10 12:39:08 * [g2] couldin't resist :)
Jan 10 12:39:23 <[g2]> man my typing is just _stellar_ today
Jan 10 12:40:01 <ka6sox> me too
Jan 10 12:44:57 <kas11> reading this damn lkml makes me feel so inadequate :(
Jan 10 12:46:22 <prpplague> hehe
Jan 10 12:46:34 <prpplague> kas11: i feel the same reading lak
Jan 10 12:47:28 <kas11> ;) @ prpplague
Jan 10 12:52:14 * kas11 admits to a certain guilty pleasure watching the occasional flamefest tho
Jan 10 12:53:20 <vmaster> heh, why guilty?
Jan 10 12:53:24 <vmaster> it's just plain fun
Jan 10 12:56:26 <kas11> fun as long as you aren't the flamee...and I am much too polite^h^h^h^h^h^hclueless to be a flamor :)
Jan 10 12:56:50 <lennert> why inadequate??
Jan 10 12:56:55 <lennert> who's inadequate here?
Jan 10 12:59:45 * kas11 whistles dixie while trying to rub top of head...and falls out of chair
Jan 10 13:00:38 <lennert> :)
Jan 10 13:01:04 <lennert> anyone can be a kernel hackers.. it's just a matter of how much of your life you're willing to sacrifice to be one ;)
Jan 10 13:01:28 <lennert> most kernel hackers have made their choice
Jan 10 13:01:36 <lennert> most non-kernel hackers have made different choices
Jan 10 13:01:56 <prpplague> lennert: i was mainly refering to my lack of skills
Jan 10 13:02:21 <lennert> prpplague: that's a matter of dedication,though
Jan 10 13:06:24 * kas11 set HZ=10000 to match her attention span
Jan 10 13:06:39 <prpplague> lennert: or genetics
Jan 10 13:06:50 <lennert> well, i'm biased, but i don't agree
Jan 10 13:06:59 <lennert> i believe you can be what you want to be if you work hard enough at it
Jan 10 13:06:59 <prpplague> kas11: "her" ?
Jan 10 13:07:06 <lennert> prpplague: kas11 is female
Jan 10 13:07:20 * prpplague is astounded
Jan 10 13:07:25 <prpplague> didn't realize that
Jan 10 13:07:32 <lennert> haha
Jan 10 13:07:39 <lennert> well, forget about it quickly
Jan 10 13:07:43 <prpplague> will do
Jan 10 13:07:54 <lennert> kas11 has had a number of nasty remarks thrown her way because of it in the past
Jan 10 13:07:59 * prpplague can count on one hand the number of girl geeks he's ever met
Jan 10 13:08:11 <prpplague> lennert: i can imaging
Jan 10 13:08:20 <kas11> :) @ prpplague...I only let it slip in polite company
Jan 10 13:08:26 <prpplague> not exactly something you'd adverstise
Jan 10 13:08:40 <prpplague> hehe
Jan 10 13:09:20 <lennert> my other half is kind of a geek, but not a CS geek
Jan 10 13:09:45 <lennert> when i just got a car i said i kind-of wondered how cars work, and she proceeded to explain me the otto cycle, how it different from a wankel engine, etc.
Jan 10 13:09:55 <lennert> scary when that happens
Jan 10 13:10:00 <[g2]> kas11 _ROCKS_!
Jan 10 13:10:15 <prpplague> lennert: hehe
Jan 10 13:11:21 <lennert> ~praise kas11
Jan 10 13:11:22 <qbot> All Hail kas11!
Jan 10 13:11:25 <purl> All hail kas11!
Jan 10 13:12:03 * kas11 blushes...but does not flutter eyelashes
Jan 10 13:12:38 <kas11> gotta keep some modicum of geek cred after all
Jan 10 13:13:15 <lennert> hehe
Jan 10 13:13:43 <lennert> you'd get the most geek cred by pretending not to understand compliments and any other kind of social protocol at all
Jan 10 13:33:29 <ka6sox> lennert, any word back from Fabrics?
Jan 10 13:34:39 <lennert> ka6sox: not yet
Jan 10 13:34:47 <lennert> ka6sox: i hope they'll reply at all
Jan 10 13:36:52 <ka6sox> k
Jan 10 13:37:01 <lennert> should i call them?
Jan 10 13:37:15 <ka6sox> naw...just the email should be enough.
Jan 10 13:37:50 <ka6sox> I will be seeing about 5 DD's in February...I think I"m not going to go for it.
Jan 10 13:38:11 <lennert> 'not going to go for it'?
Jan 10 13:38:25 <ka6sox> become an infrastructure dd
Jan 10 13:40:15 <lennert> i've been thinking many times about cancelling my NM application
Jan 10 13:40:18 <[g2]> lennert I"ve got a video question for you 
Jan 10 13:40:29 <lennert> but then again.. right now, the BE buildds are just chugging away
Jan 10 13:40:42 <lennert> even if only 90% of the archive is built for BE, that's an amazing number of packages
Jan 10 13:41:07 * [g2] hugs lennert and needs to get the unstable buildd online
Jan 10 13:42:45 <[g2]> lennert kitno455 is going to join us here in a couple minutes
Jan 10 13:42:52 <lennert> who is that?
Jan 10 13:43:09 <kitno455> re all
Jan 10 13:43:12 <lennert> [g2]: yeah, and btw, thanks for that :)
Jan 10 13:43:15 <kitno455> for?
Jan 10 13:43:31 <[g2]> he's the guy that baked off the components on the slug and power sanded to reveal the traces
Jan 10 13:43:45 <kitno455> yeah, i'm good a breaking shite
Jan 10 13:44:03 <[g2]> kitno455 had a interesting thought about server support
Jan 10 13:44:11 <kitno455> i do?
Jan 10 13:44:26 <[g2]> basically that the BIOS is not remote controllable by serial
Jan 10 13:44:30 <lennert> kitno455: you are british?
Jan 10 13:44:31 <kitno455> right
Jan 10 13:44:44 <kitno455> no, lame ass american
Jan 10 13:44:46 <kitno455> :)
Jan 10 13:45:00 <lennert> oh
Jan 10 13:45:06 <lennert> not many lame ass americans say 'shite'
Jan 10 13:45:06 <kitno455> southern even
Jan 10 13:45:10 <lennert> okay
Jan 10 13:45:12 <kitno455> hahah
Jan 10 13:45:16 <lennert> maybe i'm just confused :)
Jan 10 13:45:26 <[g2]> lennert I'm thinking about and S3 that plug into the keyboard port and video port and decodes VGA 640x480 and can send serial
Jan 10 13:45:38 <kitno455> no, no
Jan 10 13:45:48 <kitno455> you cant decode the vga
Jan 10 13:45:54 <[g2]> sure you can
Jan 10 13:45:57 <lennert> why not?
Jan 10 13:46:05 <kitno455> font differences, no way to turn it back into chars
Jan 10 13:46:06 <lennert> i've been thinking about making a vga decoder for a friend of mine
Jan 10 13:46:13 <lennert> kitno455: use ocr ;)
Jan 10 13:46:19 <kitno455> hahahah
Jan 10 13:46:21 <kitno455> ok, ok
Jan 10 13:46:27 <kitno455> you guys are crazier than me
Jan 10 13:46:31 <[g2]> nod
Jan 10 13:46:37 <kitno455> i want a pcie board
Jan 10 13:46:38 <lennert> /kick kitno455 not crazy enough
Jan 10 13:46:48 <[g2]> heh
Jan 10 13:46:54 <[g2]> ok why pcie ?
Jan 10 13:46:56 * kas11 thinks someone just overdosed on LugRadio
Jan 10 13:47:04 <lennert> kas11: what's that?
Jan 10 13:47:07 <kitno455> ok, fine, pci, i dont care
Jan 10 13:47:15 <[g2]> ok why PCI ?
Jan 10 13:47:21 <kitno455> the point is that is needs to emulate the vga bios
Jan 10 13:47:35 <kitno455> so that the MB thinks its a vga card
Jan 10 13:47:52 <vmaster> nice
Jan 10 13:47:52 <kitno455> when the box first boots, its in 320x200 cga or whatever
Jan 10 13:48:00 <lennert> you can put a piece of ram at address 000a0000
Jan 10 13:48:03 <kitno455> that is not raster, its a char mode
Jan 10 13:48:29 <kitno455> so then, you dont have to interpret the raster, just take the chars, and cram them over 9600 baud serial
Jan 10 13:48:33 <[g2]> yeah but lennert is right I think you just need the BIOS to think it's a vga card
Jan 10 13:48:41 <kitno455> right
Jan 10 13:49:04 <kitno455> vga is stupid simple, provided the machine does not try to switch into raster mode
Jan 10 13:49:06 <kas11> Lug Radio is a bunch of crazy Brits doing a podcast...much cussing and joviality....complete with a regular "hype or shite" section
Jan 10 13:49:31 <kitno455> never heard of it. i always say shite. i dont know why
Jan 10 13:50:06 <kitno455> some ibm boxes like to switch to raster mode for bios config.
Jan 10 13:50:20 <[g2]> kitno455 well I'm wondering why pcweasel went out of businees
Jan 10 13:50:21 <kitno455> everything else i have ever used is pretty much char mod
Jan 10 13:50:34 <kitno455> they took too long to make a pci version
Jan 10 13:50:35 <[g2]> sure char mode is finde
Jan 10 13:50:52 <kitno455> they had an MGA version on ISA for a couple years
Jan 10 13:50:57 <kitno455> i had one and loved it
Jan 10 13:51:02 <[g2]> lennert is _dying_ to do a PCI interface on the FPGA
Jan 10 13:51:12 <kitno455> then boxes dropped the isa interface
Jan 10 13:51:33 <kitno455> it took the weasel guys 2 years to figure this out, and build a pci version
Jan 10 13:51:37 <[g2]> and there are PCI-E to FPGA chip
Jan 10 13:52:07 <kitno455> my point exactly. i would love to learn fpga stuff, but i cant find a cheap way to get one onto a pci card
Jan 10 13:52:26 <kitno455> of course, if you are crazy, there is another option.
Jan 10 13:52:33 <kitno455> write your own bios
Jan 10 13:52:49 <[g2]> or just extend OpenBIOS
Jan 10 13:52:53 <kitno455> exactly
Jan 10 13:52:56 <[g2]> or what ever it's called
Jan 10 13:53:41 <kitno455> there is an OpenVGA project, that looks neat, but way off
Jan 10 13:53:51 <lennert> intel bioses like switching to graphical mode
Jan 10 13:54:00 <lennert> and then present you a graphical interface for raid configuration
Jan 10 13:54:03 <kitno455> i know
Jan 10 13:54:05 <lennert> which then requires a ps/2 mouse
Jan 10 13:54:07 <kitno455> intel blows
Jan 10 13:54:09 <lennert> stupid stupid
Jan 10 13:54:10 <lennert> yeah
Jan 10 13:54:18 <kitno455> i use asus boards when i can
Jan 10 13:54:32 <lennert> we got some intel server a while ago that won't do more than 5 megabytes/sec on their storage bios in raid5 mode
Jan 10 13:54:42 <lennert> it's some rebranded (and fscked up) megaraid
Jan 10 13:54:44 <kitno455> oh- aac raid
Jan 10 13:54:54 <kitno455> yeah, they are junk
Jan 10 13:55:22 <kitno455> i have been using linux sw raid for years. i love it
Jan 10 13:55:53 <lennert> i tried to talk my coworker into linux sw raid
Jan 10 13:55:55 <kitno455> the 4 digit compaq raid controllers are pretty good. the 3 digit, not much better than nothing :)
Jan 10 13:56:04 <kitno455> dude, it simply rocks
Jan 10 13:56:08 <lennert> but he, once, some years ago, had some prerelease suse version, that fskced up one of his arrays
Jan 10 13:56:15 <lennert> so now he never wants to use linux sw raid again
Jan 10 13:56:17 * lennert curses suse
Jan 10 13:56:19 <kitno455> tell him to get over it
Jan 10 13:56:24 <kitno455> i had a big ibm
Jan 10 13:56:31 <kitno455> with their servraid controller
Jan 10 13:56:35 <lennert> kitno455: tried, no use
Jan 10 13:56:50 <lennert> kitno455: i think i'll quit before him convincing into using sw raid again
Jan 10 13:56:53 <kitno455> 8 disk raid 0 stripe. slow as dirt
Jan 10 13:58:44 <[g2]> does 0+1 just use two disks ?
Jan 10 14:00:58 <kitno455> depends
Jan 10 14:01:13 <kitno455> most people use 0+1 and 1+0 interchangeably
Jan 10 14:01:18 <kitno455> but they are not the same
Jan 10 14:01:37 <lennert> intel calls it raid 10 (and they don't have 0+1)
Jan 10 14:01:38 <[g2]> 0 is striping 1 is mirroring right ?
Jan 10 14:01:43 <kitno455> right
Jan 10 14:01:51 <kitno455> but you can stripe across many disks
Jan 10 14:01:57 <kitno455> and you can mirror across many
Jan 10 14:02:01 <[g2]> sure
Jan 10 14:02:14 <[g2]> the more the merrier on striping except when one fails
Jan 10 14:02:16 <lennert> you could do a 10-disk mirror if you really wanted to
Jan 10 14:02:33 <[g2]> I thought that was called LVM :)
Jan 10 14:02:36 <kitno455> you can bet the NSA uses some 10 way mirrors :)
Jan 10 14:02:59 <[g2]> lots of data no knowledge :)
Jan 10 14:02:59 <kitno455> i have one box with a 6 disk raid 10
Jan 10 14:03:05 <kitno455> yeah
Jan 10 14:03:36 <kitno455> it is two three disk raid0 sets mirrored
Jan 10 14:04:01 <kitno455> so the 0+1 pretty much just requires that each mirror has similar size
Jan 10 14:04:47 <[g2]> kitno455 did you see the link for the ddrdrive ?
Jan 10 14:06:32 <[g2]> to me the ideal solution would be the ddrdrive caching stuff coming can going to a RAID 0 config and backing it up on a single or double  disk
Jan 10 14:06:48 <[g2]> that really makes sense to me
Jan 10 14:06:59 <kitno455> yeah, but that is basically battery backed raid controller
Jan 10 14:07:15 <[g2]> no
Jan 10 14:07:18 <kitno455> no?
Jan 10 14:07:49 <[g2]> the battery back is only holding the transations from the RAID 0 until they get flushed to the backup disk(s)
Jan 10 14:08:10 <[g2]> so it's more an uber or intelligent cache
Jan 10 14:08:25 <kitno455> ok, so the difference then is just a matter of ram size
Jan 10 14:08:56 <kitno455> current ram-enabled raid conroller tosses the data out when it gets to disk, cause more commands will come
Jan 10 14:09:08 <kitno455> if you had enough ram, you dont have to toss it.
Jan 10 14:09:21 <[g2]> the DDRDrive support 8G on PCIe
Jan 10 14:09:30 <kitno455> but then, how many gigs of disk space will be wasted on the disk behind the ddrdrive
Jan 10 14:09:36 <kitno455> you cant get an 8 gig disk anymore
Jan 10 14:09:59 <[g2]> I'd want to use 2 disks as RAID 0 for read speed
Jan 10 14:10:02 <kitno455> what about ddrdrive backed up by flash
Jan 10 14:10:11 <[g2]> and 1 or maybe 2 as mirrors
Jan 10 14:11:03 <[g2]> so you could strip disks 1 and 2 each 250G and have 1 disk as a 500G backup or 2 500G backup if you feel better
Jan 10 14:11:23 <kitno455> how are you going to get access to that space?
Jan 10 14:11:37 <kitno455> the ddrdrive reports its size as the ammount of ram
Jan 10 14:11:53 <[g2]> right so it's a simple disk cache
Jan 10 14:12:26 <[g2]> I'm sure you'll be able able to access it at the block level
Jan 10 14:12:30 <kitno455> exactly, if you want it to say its 500 gigs, then its jsut a small cache :)
Jan 10 14:12:56 <[g2]> it's the architecture
Jan 10 14:13:22 <[g2]> the RAID 0 maximizes the read/write speeds
Jan 10 14:13:46 <[g2]> The DDRDrive is just like NCQ and helps with better mgmt
Jan 10 14:13:58 <[g2]> and also doesn't penalize you for doing RAID1 on that data
Jan 10 14:14:11 <ka6sox> for a server?
Jan 10 14:14:26 <[g2]> because it's cache far exceeds the time to make a copy or two to the backup drives
Jan 10 14:14:33 <lennert> s/it's/its/
Jan 10 14:14:34 <purl> lennert meant: you could do a 10-disk mirror if you really wanted to
Jan 10 14:14:48 <kitno455> i dont buy it
Jan 10 14:14:55 <kitno455> i mean, i would not buy it
Jan 10 14:14:57 * kas11 remembers wondering how to ever fill all the space on that 10 mb Tandon drive 
Jan 10 14:15:08 <NAiL> hehe
Jan 10 14:15:21 * kitno455 still has a seagate st-225
Jan 10 14:15:21 <lennert> kas11: with pr0n? :)
Jan 10 14:15:34 <NAiL> my full-height 120mb drive took forever to fill
Jan 10 14:15:53 <NAiL> (and everytime I switched on my PC, the entire house vibrated)
Jan 10 14:15:57 <kitno455> i just tore apart an old micropolis full height for the mags
Jan 10 14:16:19 <lennert> NAiL: small house? :)
Jan 10 14:16:23 <[g2]> kitno455 it seems like you'd rather just throw drives at the problem
Jan 10 14:16:27 <kitno455> g2
Jan 10 14:16:29 <kitno455> no
Jan 10 14:16:41 <kitno455> let the os manage the cache
Jan 10 14:16:48 <kitno455> by making it the system ram
Jan 10 14:16:58 <lennert> i have 8 200G drives, and am wondering whether to build two pc's with 4x200g each or to have one with 8x200g.. ideas?
Jan 10 14:17:01 <[g2]> ok you want to hear a funny story about that ?
Jan 10 14:17:09 <kas11> *LOL*  Darpa hadn't considered full use of the Net at the time...I think I had a 300 baud modem back then...so....
Jan 10 14:17:11 <kitno455> no, but go ahead
Jan 10 14:17:17 <kitno455>  :)
Jan 10 14:17:32 <kitno455> lennert, what is your application load
Jan 10 14:17:39 <[g2]> thttpd serving up large files 80-100MB
Jan 10 14:17:48 <[g2]> linux caches the file in VM
Jan 10 14:17:54 <kitno455> ok
Jan 10 14:18:06 <[g2]> memory fills on a slug loft. then its starts SWAPPING
Jan 10 14:18:22 <[g2]> thttpd performance goes through the floor
Jan 10 14:18:41 <kitno455> kernel should be smart enough to drop caches before swapping.
Jan 10 14:18:43 <[g2]> happens right now on 2.6.14.3 and will probably happen on 2.6.15
Jan 10 14:18:48 <kitno455> occams razor
Jan 10 14:18:59 <kas11> I'd show my age if I mentioned the wonderful WD 1771 and 90k floppys
Jan 10 14:19:21 <[g2]> kitno455 I totally agree with you but it doesn't work that way and this is an expection
Jan 10 14:19:30 <[g2]> but a _very_ real world problem
Jan 10 14:19:34 <kitno455> build the card and the drivers to make your divise, or fix the bug in linux kernel
Jan 10 14:19:40 <kitno455> which one happens faster
Jan 10 14:20:40 <[g2]> well I've built my one hardware and this is an issue with the sw
Jan 10 14:20:54 <[g2]> s/one/own
Jan 10 14:21:05 <[g2]> but it's a generic issue
Jan 10 14:21:29 <ka6sox> hi kitno455 
Jan 10 14:21:53 <[g2]> lennert I'd like to see the CPU/Network separated from the disks a little more
Jan 10 14:23:07 <[g2]> lennert from my point of view my $129 SATA drive do 60MBs so 2 of them do 120MBs or basically line rate GigE
Jan 10 14:23:45 <[g2]> I your case with 8 drives that'd be the equivalent of 4GigE cards
Jan 10 14:23:47 <[g2]> line rate
Jan 10 14:23:50 <kitno455> not to rain on your parade, but specialized hardware generally is surpassed by system level hw in short order
Jan 10 14:24:02 <kitno455> ka6sox, wazzup?
Jan 10 14:25:04 <[g2]> kitno455 fully agree, but sometimes featues are missing in system level hw (like serial enabled console access to the BIOS)
Jan 10 14:25:13 <kitno455> gotta go guys, be back tomorrow.
Jan 10 14:25:18 <[g2]> cheers
Jan 10 14:25:23 <[g2]> thx for stopping by
Jan 10 14:25:29 <kitno455> we will talk more.
Jan 10 14:25:31 <kitno455> adios
Jan 10 14:26:03 <[g2]> lennert are you going to serve up on a multiple GigE interfaces or a 10GE
Jan 10 14:26:58 <[g2]> A PCI-E card where you could daisy chain chassis would be cool
Jan 10 14:27:28 <kas11> am I the only one that is irritated that they are using all the PCIe lanes up so you can use 2 $750 video cards and basically leave nothing for something useful?
Jan 10 14:27:44 <ka6sox> I moved...is the remodeled room occupied yet?
Jan 10 14:27:58 <ka6sox> rats.
Jan 10 14:28:01 <ka6sox> missed him
Jan 10 14:28:31 <[g2]> kas11 I'm not.. They are driving down the cost of the other cards that'll come soon :)
Jan 10 14:29:21 <[g2]> iirc the PCI-E 16 have like 20-30GB of bw
Jan 10 14:29:23 <kas11> but it makes PCIe sorta useless for GigE in many cases near as I can tell
Jan 10 14:29:36 <[g2]> Oh no way
Jan 10 14:29:53 <[g2]> it's exactly needed for GigE
Jan 10 14:29:59 <[g2]> unless it's on the mobo
Jan 10 14:29:59 <kas11> yeah...but they are using almost all the lans for SLI stuff...
Jan 10 14:30:19 <[g2]> not in my servers :)
Jan 10 14:30:24 <kas11> s/lans/lanes
Jan 10 14:30:30 <[g2]> no video even required
Jan 10 14:31:11 <[g2]> I've been looking for a PCIe RAID card
Jan 10 14:31:53 <[g2]> and the DDRdrive for doing builds
Jan 10 14:32:10 <[g2]> doing a full OE build in memory would just be killer
Jan 10 14:32:20 <[g2]> then plug in the X2 
Jan 10 14:33:04 <[g2]> kergoth was guessing half the time was just all the untaring/patching etc
Jan 10 14:33:19 <kas11> well, having a nice little farm on PCIe/GigE would be nice
Jan 10 14:33:52 <[g2]> well this would all be native to one box
Jan 10 14:34:00 <[g2]> but you could then distcc em
Jan 10 14:34:13 <kas11> hanging GigE off the PCI bus just isn't helping all that much
Jan 10 14:34:30 <[g2]> that's exactly the point
Jan 10 14:34:59 <[g2]> the network card / bus interface for non-PCIe cards become the issue
Jan 10 14:35:01 <kas11> need to get the network away from the disk traffic on the PCI bus
Jan 10 14:35:56 <kas11> seems like everyone is worried about video only...disk traffic here is the major bottleneck
Jan 10 14:36:07 <[g2]> right that makes the problem worse, but my disk traffic is away from the PCI 
Jan 10 14:36:12 <kas11> damn gamers :)
Jan 10 14:36:25 <[g2]> hey the pave the way for us
Jan 10 14:37:00 <[g2]> Ok ... time to do some work
Jan 10 14:37:10 <[g2]> thanks for chatting
Jan 10 14:37:47 <kas11> I believe I saw one MB that had 2 lanes left for anything else after they added in SLI
Jan 10 14:37:59 <kas11> ttfn... ;)
Jan 10 14:39:29 <[g2]> cheers, thx for stopping by it's nice seeing you 
Jan 10 14:47:07 <lennert> [g2]: serve up what?
Jan 10 14:47:29 <lennert> my application load is.. low load, just needs lots of storage
Jan 10 14:49:04 <lennert> the board i asked for is x8..
Jan 10 14:49:28 <[g2]> lennert so networks storage is the app ?
Jan 10 14:49:39 <lennert> yeah i guess
Jan 10 14:50:22 <[g2]> I'd think the protocol and application load might start to influence performance then
Jan 10 14:50:29 <[g2]> just like on the slug
Jan 10 14:50:43 <lennert> it only has 100mb/s which it easily saturates
Jan 10 14:51:00 <[g2]> ah... then you are really bw starved
Jan 10 14:51:08 <[g2]> ok thx
Jan 10 14:51:16 <lennert> i'm wondering about the right disk config :
Jan 10 14:51:17 <lennert> :)
Jan 10 14:51:47 <[g2]> well it probably doesn't matter much for performance
Jan 10 14:51:53 <[g2]> just reliability
Jan 10 14:52:01 <[g2]> and cost
Jan 10 14:53:14 <lennert> the mobo+cpu i'm using were like $150
Jan 10 14:53:37 <ka6sox> for what?
Jan 10 14:53:53 <lennert> celeron 2.6 ?
Jan 10 14:54:00 <lennert> dunno what mobo exactly
Jan 10 14:54:05 <ka6sox> celery...got it
Jan 10 14:54:14 <lennert> the entire pc (with 256mb and 40g drive) was $200-$250
Jan 10 14:54:26 <ka6sox> cheap
Jan 10 14:54:37 <lennert> all my boxes are celerons apart from my via epia board
Jan 10 14:54:43 <lennert> they're just cheaper
Jan 10 14:54:50 <lennert> although if i were to buy a box now, i'd buy amd
Jan 10 15:06:47 <[g2]> lennert for home or work ?
Jan 10 15:07:09 <lennert> for home
Jan 10 15:07:15 <lennert> i don't get to decide on stuff for work
Jan 10 15:07:19 <lennert> my coworker is an intel fanboy
Jan 10 15:09:50 <ka6sox> Hi Tiersten!
Jan 10 17:38:47 <kas11> *grrrr* freakin' wireless
Jan 10 17:39:15 <lennert> kas11: what about it?
Jan 10 17:39:25 <lennert> kas11: you turn on the microwave and it stops working? :)
Jan 10 17:39:54 <kas11> can't find a driver for this bogus Marvel 88v8335
Jan 10 17:40:05 <lennert> oh
Jan 10 17:40:16 <lennert> marvel sucks, they don't release specs for anything
Jan 10 17:40:43 <lennert> they have a serdes-to-1000baseT IC that's used in copper GBICs, and i asked them many many times for the specs, but they wouldn't give them to me
Jan 10 17:40:48 <kas11> yeah...and they don't even have a Win 64 driver posted
Jan 10 17:40:49 <lennert> in the end i went with agilent instead :P
Jan 10 17:41:15 <lennert> i'm now the happy owner of several agilent copper gbics
Jan 10 17:41:21 <kas11> yep...NDAs up to here...and then the answer is still NO
Jan 10 17:41:32 <lennert> kas11: indeed
Jan 10 17:42:27 <kas11> at least you can find a bcm driver that works...albeit only with ndiswrapper
Jan 10 17:42:59 <ka6sox> heh...Bdcm wants your firstborne
Jan 10 17:44:34 <kas11> and I don't really know if the driver I have is really not 64bit (the zip file sez it is in 3 places), it is 64bit but non-functional...or Arjan/Dave's insistance on building with 4k stacks is the real problem
Jan 10 17:45:17 <kas11> but bcmwl564 is working on this laptop...even with 4k stacks
Jan 10 17:45:23 <lennert> 4k ought to be enough for everybody :P
Jan 10 17:46:00 <kas11> everybody but BillyG
Jan 10 17:46:26 <lennert> does it come with source?
Jan 10 17:46:57 <kas11> *LOL* @ source....surely you jest
Jan 10 17:47:16 <lennert> guess not :)
Jan 10 17:47:18 <ka6sox> Source? Windows????
Jan 10 17:47:37 <lennert> if it loads into your x86_64 kernel at all it's compatible i'd say....
Jan 10 17:48:02 <kas11> I am no BRCM fan....I'd just like something that works...back to the store with this Netgear thingee
Jan 10 17:49:30 <kas11> well, ndiswrappper sez it is loaded...but that really doesn't mean much...it loaded bcmwl5a on this but at least dmesg said something about bad magic...
Jan 10 17:50:42 <lennert> ndiswrapper is evil
Jan 10 17:50:45 <kas11> ndiswrapper loads this MRV8KNT thing and dmesg has nothing there except that ndiswrapper 1.7 was loaded....but the hardware is never found
Jan 10 17:51:11 <lennert> i dunno..
Jan 10 17:52:33 <kas11> I'm gonna try the OS brcm driver...but this is woking so I am trying to get the other box going now
Jan 10 17:53:03 <kas11> wish these people would use one chip and stick to it...V2 has one thing, v3 another
Jan 10 17:53:40 <lennert> same with the tigon
Jan 10 17:53:58 <lennert> even some boards are called the same but have totally different chips
Jan 10 17:54:09 <kas11> building codes should insist that everything be wired with cat5e :)
Jan 10 17:54:35 <lennert> cat5e works nicely even for isdn and pots ;)
Jan 10 17:54:40 <ka6sox> lennert: what do you know about a new buildd machine for armeb?
Jan 10 17:54:51 <lennert> ka6sox: how do you mean?
Jan 10 17:55:23 <ka6sox> Building        :    20 (bob: 3, velnas: 15, wendy: 2)
Jan 10 17:55:31 <lennert> velnas?
Jan 10 17:55:39 <ka6sox> been listed for a week.
Jan 10 17:55:40 <lennert> is that [g2]'s box?
Jan 10 17:55:45 <lennert> interesting
Jan 10 17:55:50 <lennert> velnias is lithuanian for 'devil'
Jan 10 17:56:04 <lennert> i hope that that is coincidence :)
Jan 10 17:56:12 <ka6sox> ya. mee too!
Jan 10 17:56:19 <lennert> random cursing: "po velniu!" (i.e. "by the devil!")
Jan 10 17:57:35 * kas11 gave up cursing and working on Windows boxes concurrently
Jan 10 17:57:47 <lennert> hehe
Jan 10 17:57:48 <ka6sox> don't they go hand in hand?>
Jan 10 17:57:54 <lennert> well, it's just that i'm in lithuania
Jan 10 17:57:58 <lennert> and supposed to learn the language
Jan 10 17:58:12 <ka6sox> how long are you there for?
Jan 10 17:58:16 <lennert> and i do!  starting from the cursings, since they're most important (for passive knowledge of the language of course :)
Jan 10 17:58:24 <lennert> since 28 dec, until jan 16
Jan 10 17:58:24 * kas11 has been known to wave a #2 Phillips in a threatening manner tho
Jan 10 17:58:44 <lennert> folks in law speak russian though
Jan 10 17:58:45 <ka6sox> kas11, don't let them get away with anything.
Jan 10 17:58:54 <kas11> nevah
Jan 10 17:59:11 <lennert> lithuanian cursings are very kind.. worst thing they can call you is a 'toad' (and that's _offensive_)
Jan 10 18:26:17 <kas11> see ya'll later
Jan 10 18:27:41 <lennert> kas11: bye..
Jan 10 18:30:26 <ka6sox> rats.
Jan 10 18:31:10 <lennert> mice
Jan 10 18:31:30 <lennert> rodents?
Jan 10 18:34:32 <ka6sox> missed her
Jan 10 18:39:38 <lennert> yeah, that sucks
Jan 10 18:39:57 <lennert> i missed her too, she left too quickly
Jan 10 18:40:26 <lennert> it's actually the thing i find so annoying about #debian-arm.. people ask a question at 6am (when you're not awake), and leave at 06:03
Jan 10 18:42:51 <lennert> ..and then probably complain to their friends that people on #debian-arm never answer ;p
Jan 10 18:43:30 <ka6sox> ya
Jan 10 18:43:45 <ka6sox> I know that when I leave a message for aba I get response later.
Jan 10 18:43:53 <lennert> yeah
Jan 10 18:44:24 <ka6sox> so I don't worry.
Jan 10 18:44:34 <lennert> don't worry, be happy
Jan 10 18:44:38 <lennert> la la la la
Jan 10 18:44:50 <ka6sox> :)
Jan 10 18:47:06 <lennert> this windows box is still protesting my treatment
Jan 10 19:08:33 <ka6sox> give it the Toad curse.
Jan 10 19:08:49 * lennert calls the windows box a toad
Jan 10 19:09:13 * lennert watches the windows box be unmoved by this accusation.. maybe it doesn't speak lithuanian?
Jan 10 19:10:44 <ByronT> hey!
Jan 10 19:10:56 <ByronT> oh... the "Toad" curse, not the "Todd" curse
Jan 10 19:11:12 <lennert> hehe :)
Jan 10 19:11:15 <ka6sox> he he
Jan 10 19:11:17 <lennert> you todd!
Jan 10 19:12:50 <ByronT> my last name
Jan 10 19:12:57 <lennert> yeah
Jan 10 19:13:02 <lennert> buytenhek is mine
Jan 10 19:13:11 <ByronT> have been called Toad many times though... :)
Jan 10 19:16:35 <key2> hi
Jan 10 19:17:20 <key2> does someone remember the name of the device with a "dog" in the name that had an Xilinx with an embeded linux in it ?
Jan 10 19:17:37 <ka6sox> blackdog
Jan 10 19:17:41 <ByronT> the blackdog?
Jan 10 19:17:50 <lennert> blackdog?
Jan 10 19:17:51 <ka6sox> yeppers
Jan 10 19:17:53 <ka6sox> heh
Jan 10 19:17:56 <ByronT> heh
Jan 10 19:18:01 <ka6sox> no blackdog linux
Jan 10 19:18:03 <lennert> blackdog what?/
Jan 10 19:18:13 <key2> yeah
Jan 10 19:18:21 <key2> url ?
Jan 10 19:18:33 <ka6sox> blackdoglinux.com?
Jan 10 19:18:43 <bullet> google.com?
Jan 10 19:18:51 <ByronT> http://www.projectblackdog.com/
Jan 10 19:19:11 <lennert> right
Jan 10 19:19:14 <lennert> the virtex on
Jan 10 19:19:39 <lennert> *one
Jan 10 19:20:03 <NAiLzZz> "mobile personal server"?
Jan 10 19:20:10 <ka6sox> ya...I have one to play with.
Jan 10 19:20:10 <ka6sox> :)
Jan 10 19:20:18 <lennert> nice :)
Jan 10 19:20:39 <ka6sox> its a V2
Jan 10 19:50:26 <lennert> a 2-cylinder v shape engine..
Jan 10 22:02:59 * [g2] has a blackdog
Jan 10 22:30:49 <ka6sox-away> w00f
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 11 02:59:58 2006