**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 13 02:59:57 2006
Jan 13 03:34:37 <dyoung-away> Hmm, okay
Jan 13 03:34:55 <dyoung-away> I have a feeling that was for a differnt window eh. :-)
Jan 13 03:35:42 <dyoung-away> Sounds good though.  
Jan 13 03:35:54 <dyoung-away> I wonder if you can call for me; or if I need to do it.
Jan 13 03:36:01 <dyoung-away> I gotta pack
Jan 13 04:48:43 <lennert> hehe
Jan 13 04:54:01 <dyoung-away> Hi Lennert.
Jan 13 04:54:17 <lennert> hi dyoung-away
Jan 13 04:54:22 <lennert> how is it?
Jan 13 04:54:37 <dyoung-away> When you absolutely need to lose a package overnight, use Fedex !
Jan 13 04:54:49 <lennert> or DHL
Jan 13 04:54:52 <lennert> any will do, really
Jan 13 04:54:57 <dyoung-away> heh heh
Jan 13 04:55:06 <dyoung-away> Doing ok
Jan 13 04:55:07 <lennert> Droppit Hideit Loseit
Jan 13 04:55:24 <dyoung-away> having trouble keeping up with all the new developments.
Jan 13 04:55:33 <lennert> new developments?
Jan 13 04:55:43 <dyoung-away> oh, all of them.
Jan 13 04:55:50 <lennert> name them ;)
Jan 13 04:55:52 <dyoung-away> the whole debian debicle.
Jan 13 04:55:56 <lennert> oh, that
Jan 13 04:56:09 <lennert> well, at least all our work is now obsolete ;-)
Jan 13 04:56:09 <dyoung-away> etc, etc...
Jan 13 04:56:22 <dyoung-away> Seems so eh?
Jan 13 04:56:26 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 04:56:36 <dyoung-away> Thats okay. I still use.
Jan 13 04:56:47 <lennert> and me
Jan 13 04:56:56 <dyoung-away> Just for Fun we should do Etch too.
Jan 13 04:57:00 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 04:57:07 <lennert> just to show 'em :P
Jan 13 04:57:27 <dyoung-away> Yep, and while we're at it, Ubuntu with EABI.
Jan 13 04:57:29 <dyoung-away> heh
Jan 13 04:57:37 <lennert> hehe
Jan 13 04:57:45 <lennert> eabi with gcc 4.0 is a no-go
Jan 13 04:57:59 <dyoung-away> We should proably follow up on the security stuff at some point....
Jan 13 04:58:02 <lennert> and.. all gcc 4.1 snapshots i tried don't build right for me
Jan 13 04:58:12 <lennert> indeed
Jan 13 04:58:29 <dyoung-away> Yeah, I'm kind of having my own personal toolchain nightmare myself.
Jan 13 04:58:48 <dyoung-away> but on the plus side, I got Xen working just how I like it with instances for cross33 and cross34
Jan 13 04:58:56 <lennert> really?  what nightmare?
Jan 13 04:59:21 <dyoung-away> Its proably user error.
Jan 13 04:59:44 <lennert> that's what i kept thinking with gcc 4.0/4.1
Jan 13 04:59:57 <lennert> but as it turns out, gcc 4.0 only has a part of the eabi bits needed
Jan 13 05:00:10 <lennert> and the 'eabi' binaries it produces aren't eabi in any way apart from insignificant ways
Jan 13 05:00:22 <dyoung-away> hmmpf.  so 3.4 is the latest EABI workable version ?
Jan 13 05:00:22 <lennert> s/from/from some/
Jan 13 05:00:22 <purl> lennert meant: and the 'eabi' binaries it produces aren't eabi in any way apart from some insignificant ways
Jan 13 05:00:32 <lennert> 3.4 needs codesourcery patches
Jan 13 05:00:45 <dyoung-away> At least they are available.
Jan 13 05:00:48 <lennert> 3.4-out-of-the-box doesn't know about eabi
Jan 13 05:00:56 <lennert> true, but sarge uses 3.3 and sid uses >= 4.0
Jan 13 05:01:47 <dyoung-away> oh well.
Jan 13 05:01:53 <dyoung-away> Guess we suck. :P
Jan 13 05:02:03 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 05:02:13 <lennert> we do :P
Jan 13 05:02:40 <dyoung-away> "Beaten Paths are for Beaten Men."
Jan 13 05:02:40 <dyoung-away> I aint beat yet.
Jan 13 05:02:46 <lennert> hehe
Jan 13 05:02:56 <lennert> "i can will it all away."  :-)
Jan 13 05:03:23 <dyoung-away> I'm throwing in the towel on recycled disks though
Jan 13 05:03:51 <dyoung-away> I'll have a nslu2 with disk for special builds, but I think its all going to be NFS root from now.
Jan 13 05:04:03 <dyoung-away> I ate like 6 disks.
Jan 13 05:04:15 <dyoung-away> or rather sarge did...
Jan 13 05:04:59 <lennert> "sarge ate my disks!"
Jan 13 05:05:08 <lennert> and now it's declared obsolete
Jan 13 05:05:12 <lennert> did the disks die in vain??
Jan 13 05:05:31 <dyoung-away> Kinda looks that way.
Jan 13 05:05:55 <dyoung-away> I was trying to make a sad looking sculpture out of them; but its not quite enough to do something cool
Jan 13 05:06:04 <lennert> hmmm
Jan 13 05:06:37 <lennert> not sure what to do with them either
Jan 13 05:06:48 <lennert> maybe just the disks themselves can be turned into an exhibition
Jan 13 05:07:11 <lennert> some small looking rectangular object with "The Bone Grinder" written on it is sure to attract _some_ interest
Jan 13 05:10:32 <dyoung-away> hhe
Jan 13 05:10:51 <dyoung-away> If I take um all apart, there should be enough stuff to make something cool looking
Jan 13 05:11:26 <lennert> a number of packages don't build on nfs root, though
Jan 13 05:11:35 <lennert> mostly anything that uses db3 or db4, it seems
Jan 13 05:11:47 <lennert> probably because my nfs root setup has nonexistent file locking
Jan 13 05:11:54 <dyoung-away> Yeah, thats what the one special nslu2 will be fore....
Jan 13 05:12:16 <lennert> it would be nice to have a small ramdisk that can do a 'proper' nfs mount, pivot into that, and dissolve itself from existence
Jan 13 05:12:56 <dyoung-away> Luckily, thats how the nfsroot works under OpenSlug and friends.
Jan 13 05:13:02 <lennert> great
Jan 13 05:13:05 <dyoung-away> it boots the internal ramdisk first.
Jan 13 05:13:12 <lennert> the kernel nfs root sucks
Jan 13 05:13:43 <dyoung-away> Its on my todo list. :-)
Jan 13 05:13:55 <dyoung-away> I'm really stoked about Xen btw.
Jan 13 05:14:01 <lennert> stoked = ?
Jan 13 05:14:07 <lennert> excited or pissed off? :)
Jan 13 05:14:21 <lennert> !dict stoked
Jan 13 05:14:55 <dyoung-away> feeling of elatement?
Jan 13 05:15:00 <dyoung-away> Its a good word
Jan 13 05:15:14 <dyoung-away> sorry, thats a surfer word
Jan 13 05:15:44 <dyoung-away> When you have a really good wave, "I was stoked about that last ride!"
Jan 13 05:18:03 <lennert> ah, okay
Jan 13 05:18:07 <lennert> stoked
Jan 13 05:18:12 <lennert> i'll remember that word
Jan 13 05:18:56 <dyoung-away> I just assumed the meaning was well known, as all my french friends knonw it; but theyre all surfers. :-)
Jan 13 05:19:13 <lennert> hehe
Jan 13 05:19:21 <lennert> well, i had never heard it before
Jan 13 05:19:33 <lennert> except as a last name, 'Stoker'  :)
Jan 13 05:19:40 * lennert yawns
Jan 13 05:19:45 * dyoung-away me toos
Jan 13 05:19:50 <dyoung-away> 0220.
Jan 13 05:19:51 <lennert> i only woke up like half an hour ago
Jan 13 05:19:59 <lennert> 02:20 PM here
Jan 13 05:20:06 <lennert> so it's 01:20 in holland
Jan 13 05:20:07 <dyoung-away> funny how that works. :-)
Jan 13 05:20:11 <lennert> hehe
Jan 13 05:20:17 <lennert> i went to bed at 06:00
Jan 13 05:20:21 <lennert> reading ixp23xx documentation
Jan 13 05:20:23 <dyoung-away> my new years resolution is to do something cool with the S3
Jan 13 05:20:44 <dyoung-away> Collecting Dust isnt cool.
Jan 13 05:21:06 <lennert> i might might might might get an ixp23xx loaner board
Jan 13 05:21:12 <dyoung-away> I'm kind of dead in the water atm because my T42 caught fire.
Jan 13 05:21:20 <lennert> t42?  calculator?
Jan 13 05:21:30 <dyoung-away> IBM ThinkPad T42.
Jan 13 05:21:35 <lennert> oooh
Jan 13 05:21:36 <lennert> that sucks
Jan 13 05:21:40 <dyoung-away> It didnt really catch fire, but all this smoke was pouring out of it
Jan 13 05:21:42 <lennert> just the power supply, or something more vital?
Jan 13 05:21:53 <dyoung-away> I think it was the fan controller.
Jan 13 05:21:57 <dyoung-away> or something with the fan.
Jan 13 05:22:09 <lennert> if you plug it back in it starts smoking again?
Jan 13 05:22:17 <lennert> see, smoking is bad for your health
Jan 13 05:22:31 <dyoung-away> If I turn it on, it immediately says Fan Error.
Jan 13 05:22:49 <lennert> and then you say "Tell me something new." and it continues booting?
Jan 13 05:22:50 <dyoung-away> Once I had let the Magic Blue Smoke out, it was done.
Jan 13 05:22:57 <dyoung-away> No, it turns itself off
Jan 13 05:23:04 <lennert> oh
Jan 13 05:23:33 <dyoung-away> In a strange twist of happenstance, ByronT's T42 fan broke like 3 days after mine croaked.
Jan 13 05:23:38 <lennert> heh
Jan 13 05:23:54 <dyoung-away> I think he got his a little bit after me.
Jan 13 05:24:12 <lennert> same series?
Jan 13 05:24:13 <dyoung-away> The next guy from around here that has a T42 is jacques.
Jan 13 05:24:25 <lennert> tell him to make backups NOW :)
Jan 13 05:24:32 <dyoung-away> so if his fan goes funny, we know theres a issue. :-)
Jan 13 05:24:34 <bullet> heh, i've got a t41p!
Jan 13 05:24:46 <bullet> and it's still running non-smoking
Jan 13 05:25:18 <lennert> bullet: lucky bastard :)
Jan 13 05:25:23 <dyoung-away> I kind of wish I had a voice recorder or something, I'm pretty sure I emitted some pretty choice words.
Jan 13 05:25:43 <bullet> hehe. well, a friend of mine has a t42p, and it's display went black two weeks ago
Jan 13 05:26:00 <lennert> 'choice words'
Jan 13 05:26:13 <lennert> BEEP BEEP BEEP
Jan 13 05:26:28 <dyoung-away> you BEEPING BEEP of BEEP
Jan 13 05:26:32 <dyoung-away> holy BEEP
Jan 13 05:26:39 <dyoung-away> what BEEP BEEEP BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
Jan 13 05:26:44 <lennert> you BEEEEEP fornicator
Jan 13 05:27:20 <dyoung-away> I was thinking earlier its probably a sign to move to the Linux WebPack.
Jan 13 05:27:29 <dyoung-away> And that was actually part of my motivation to Xen-ify.
Jan 13 05:27:41 <lennert> i love xen
Jan 13 05:28:00 <lennert> i scored a linux version of ISE that i'm now happily using
Jan 13 05:28:06 <dyoung-away> Wow
Jan 13 05:28:23 <lennert> i wrote an fm modulator to drive the vga dac on the xupv2p board.. :P
Jan 13 05:28:27 <dyoung-away> does the foo-XUP target work with your version ?
Jan 13 05:28:35 <lennert> foo-xup?
Jan 13 05:28:42 <dyoung-away> hehe what you just said.
Jan 13 05:28:46 <dyoung-away> XUPV2P
Jan 13 05:28:52 <dyoung-away> couldnt remember the model. :-)
Jan 13 05:28:56 <lennert> xupv2p?  well, it can synthesize for the xc2vp30, which is what's on that board
Jan 13 05:29:19 <lennert> i also got the fscking SystemACE figured out
Jan 13 05:29:56 <dyoung-away> I need to catch up with you
Jan 13 05:30:13 <dyoung-away> at this point I basically dont know what the eff I'm doing.
Jan 13 05:30:26 <lennert> (the systemace is a device you hook into your jtag chain, and it's normally transparent, but you can tell it to program the devices on the 'inner' half of the jtag chain from a .ace file on a compactflash)
Jan 13 05:31:03 <lennert> you need to understand the.. what, 3 basic vhdl constructs, and how they translate to flipflops
Jan 13 05:31:27 <lennert> after that, it's a lot of code writing
Jan 13 05:31:30 <dyoung-away> Yeah, I had to dump my VHDL knowledge to make space for other crap.
Jan 13 05:31:40 <dyoung-away> so I need to just start from scratch.
Jan 13 05:31:40 <lennert> don't read any vhdl, most of what's out there is crap :-)
Jan 13 05:32:25 <dyoung-away> Okay.
Jan 13 05:32:28 <dyoung-away> heh
Jan 13 05:32:34 <lennert> mine is crap too
Jan 13 05:32:47 <lennert> i like to believe you have to develop your own style..
Jan 13 05:32:58 <lennert> ..and then when you're proficient enough, dump all of that once again :)
Jan 13 05:35:00 <dyoung-away> lennert: I'm going on holiday tommrow.  I'll be back on the 23rd.
Jan 13 05:35:10 <lennert> okay
Jan 13 05:35:15 <lennert> and you won't have internet access, i guess? :)
Jan 13 05:35:19 <dyoung-away> we should probably talk then a little bit about "The Plan"
Jan 13 05:35:27 <lennert> i'm coming back home next monday
Jan 13 05:35:32 <lennert> yeah.. 'the plan'
Jan 13 05:35:37 <dyoung-away> I might have internet access... dunno yet.
Jan 13 05:35:46 <dyoung-away> I'm not taking a laptop since it caught fire. :-)
Jan 13 05:37:27 <lennert> maybe some snow will do it some good :)
Jan 13 05:42:13 <dyoung-away> Hehe.  That irritates me, I cant use my T42 in Antartica just because my fan doesnt spin.
Jan 13 05:42:16 <dyoung-away> oh well.
Jan 13 05:42:29 <lennert> lol
Jan 13 05:42:49 <lennert> they should let you rip out the fan when ambient is under -10C, i think ;-)
Jan 13 05:46:25 <vmaster> loool
Jan 13 08:17:28 <GyrosGeier> Hrm
Jan 13 08:17:45 <GyrosGeier> I need a tool to diff two binaries as opcodes
Jan 13 08:21:19 <lennert> objdump/diff no good?
Jan 13 08:34:12 <kas11> good mawnin', everyone...I see most all of the usual suspects here :)
Jan 13 08:38:41 <lennert> good yawnin'
Jan 13 08:43:12 <kas11> ;) @ lennert
Jan 13 08:43:25 <GyrosGeier> lennert, no, as diff cannot be told to ignore addresses
Jan 13 08:43:56 <GyrosGeier> lennert, and there have been instructions inserted/deleted
Jan 13 08:48:17 <lennert> delete the addresses with sed or somesuch?
Jan 13 08:55:41 <[g2]> ka6sox around ?
Jan 13 08:56:07 <prpplague> kas11: suspects? am i being profiled?
Jan 13 09:05:57 <[g2]> lennert hey
Jan 13 09:06:03 <lennert> hey gee two
Jan 13 09:06:03 <[g2]> are you at fosdem ?
Jan 13 09:06:17 <lennert> not right now :)
Jan 13 09:06:26 <[g2]> is that this week ?
Jan 13 09:06:27 <lennert> but i'm going there, yeah (at the end of february)
Jan 13 09:06:32 <lennert> 26-27-28 feb i think
Jan 13 09:06:41 <[g2]> ah
Jan 13 09:06:45 <lennert> why so?
Jan 13 09:07:34 <[g2]> I had the mistaken idea it was going on now
Jan 13 09:08:43 <lennert> anyone here going to fosdem?
Jan 13 09:13:39 * GyrosGeier possibly
Jan 13 09:13:50 <GyrosGeier> if I can find a place to stay
Jan 13 09:13:59 <GyrosGeier> anyone going to Embedded World?
Jan 13 09:14:19 <prpplague> not me, i have no budget this year for conferences
Jan 13 09:14:45 <vmaster> i'll be at the embedded
Jan 13 09:14:51 <GyrosGeier> EW is a trade fair, so it even makes less sense to go there unless you happen to be in the business
Jan 13 09:15:03 * GyrosGeier is likely going to be there
Jan 13 09:15:34 <vmaster> hall 11, booth 112, iirc
Jan 13 09:16:47 <lennert> 112 is the european 911 :)
Jan 13 09:17:24 <vmaster> hehehe, yeah
Jan 13 09:17:36 <lennert> you'll be doing emergency services? :)
Jan 13 09:18:08 <vmaster> no, not really - presenting the OpenOCD
Jan 13 09:18:33 <vmaster> it's a shared booth of german universities
Jan 13 09:19:26 <GyrosGeier> hall 12, booth 508
Jan 13 10:07:04 <ulf_k_> hi
Jan 13 10:07:11 <lennert> hello
Jan 13 10:07:53 <ulf_k_> a question to the super gurus of you all, what is a lattice lc4032v for?
Jan 13 10:08:08 <vmaster> a small cpld
Jan 13 10:08:30 <ulf_k_> can it used to write to a flashchip?
Jan 13 10:08:46 <lennert> probably, yes
Jan 13 10:08:52 <lennert> if you program it :)
Jan 13 10:09:00 <ulf_k_> if you have a second of time can you look this picture:
Jan 13 10:09:25 <ulf_k_> http://www.wlanhain.de/morewireless/hardware/dwl-7000/dwl-7000.jpg
Jan 13 10:10:00 <ulf_k_> there is a jtag iface as well a smal iface near by the lattice
Jan 13 10:10:50 <lennert> where?
Jan 13 10:10:54 <lennert> (i'm looking at the picture now)
Jan 13 10:11:05 <vmaster> i can see the jtag header, but what small interface do you mean?
Jan 13 10:11:14 <vmaster> ah
Jan 13 10:11:15 <vmaster> ok
Jan 13 10:11:22 <vmaster> top-right corner, lennert
Jan 13 10:11:28 <ulf_k_> yes
Jan 13 10:11:31 <lennert> right
Jan 13 10:11:35 <lennert> 8 pin header, 1 pin missing
Jan 13 10:11:39 <ulf_k_> the other corner is serial
Jan 13 10:11:55 <vmaster> the 8-pin header looks like a lattice isp layout
Jan 13 10:12:04 <vmaster> that's jtag, too
Jan 13 10:12:09 <vmaster> the 20-pin layout is arm
Jan 13 10:12:16 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 10:12:17 <ulf_k_> aha
Jan 13 10:12:21 <vmaster> didn't we talk about this a few months ago?
Jan 13 10:12:27 <ulf_k_> yes
Jan 13 10:13:11 <vmaster> get the lattice datasheet, identify the tdi/tdo pins, and see if there's a connection between the 8-pin header and the tdi/o pins
Jan 13 10:13:48 <ulf_k_> well i have 5 of this boards, now i set up 3 on the roof with org. firmware running from dlink, they are wonderfull, so fast in 80211 a with wds and turbo a 
Jan 13 10:14:36 <ulf_k_> because they are very good wifis i decided to look again to hack this for running linux
Jan 13 10:15:46 <ulf_k_> these 8pin (7only printed) sre somehow attached to the lattice
Jan 13 10:21:37 <[g2]> ulf_k_ that's got an IXP in there right ?
Jan 13 10:30:42 <ulf_k_> ixp 420ab
Jan 13 10:46:11 <wookey_> I recognise a lot of these names :-)
Jan 13 10:47:03 <prpplague> wookey_: greetings
Jan 13 10:47:08 <lennert> hello wookey_
Jan 13 10:48:43 <prpplague> wookey_: what brings you to our neck of the woods?
Jan 13 10:48:44 <[g2]> wookey_ welcome
Jan 13 10:48:54 <wookey_> what is this blackdog thing then
Jan 13 10:49:28 <wookey_> you need some hardware on the end of the wire in order to do JTAG fast enough?
Jan 13 10:49:35 <[g2]> Realm Systems is trying to make an enterprise biometric device
Jan 13 10:49:59 <[g2]> the released project blackdog to try and get open sourcer's on board
Jan 13 10:50:05 <wookey_> prpplague: g2 just told me I would be interested
Jan 13 10:50:14 <wookey_> he is right
Jan 13 10:50:19 <[g2]> and offered $75K in prize money
Jan 13 10:50:39 <prpplague> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8980836353.html
Jan 13 10:50:42 <wookey_> that's a good way to get some attention
Jan 13 10:51:09 <[g2]> it's like Janet Jackson at the super bowl
Jan 13 10:51:15 <[g2]> short term attention
Jan 13 10:51:27 <prpplague> hehe
Jan 13 10:51:39 <[g2]> that that all short term attention is _bad_ :)
Jan 13 10:52:09 <[g2]> So the blackdog has a PPC hard core in the FPGA and usb 2.0
Jan 13 10:52:26 <[g2]> it can connect to windows and supossedly to linux via USB-NET
Jan 13 10:52:49 <[g2]> there's a MMC expansion and it runs Sarge on the PPC hard core
Jan 13 10:53:11 <[g2]> I think it's got 64MB ram and 256 or 512 MB flash on board
Jan 13 10:53:22 <lennert> i tried sarge ppc but that didn't run on my v2pro
Jan 13 10:53:31 <lennert> something with floating point
Jan 13 10:53:43 <lennert> so they're using a custom version, hm?
Jan 13 10:53:44 <[g2]> based on configuration option plus a biometeric finger print board
Jan 13 10:53:57 <[g2]> they released a QEMU kit
Jan 13 10:54:01 <prpplague> i wonder what they are using for minuetia comparisons
Jan 13 10:54:04 <[g2]> and It runs when I plug it into the PC
Jan 13 10:54:13 <prpplague> i've not found any OSS apps that do very well
Jan 13 10:54:57 <[g2]> wookey_ so with the blackdog, I think we could connect it to an USB 2.0 linux host, a laptop or loft or what ever
Jan 13 10:55:22 <[g2]> and then reprogram the FPGA to use the MMC connections to drive high speed JTAG
Jan 13 10:55:44 <prpplague> [g2]: nice
Jan 13 10:55:45 <[g2]> That would work as a proto
Jan 13 10:56:07 <[g2]> I've talked to Realm a while ago and are interested in OEMing later this year
Jan 13 10:56:19 <wookey_> OK that makes sense.
Jan 13 10:56:23 <[g2]> or we could just layout and build our own board
Jan 13 10:56:33 <wookey_> balloon3 has a built-in FPGA which is good for this sort of thing
Jan 13 10:56:55 <[g2]> but a $199 for the 256MB version it's easier (and way cheaper) to just buy Blackdogs and plug them in
Jan 13 10:57:30 <[g2]> is the B3 shipping and what kinda FPGA is on there ?
Jan 13 10:57:38 <wookey_> well I was thinking that loft+blackdog is more than just balloon
Jan 13 10:58:10 <wookey_> but no its not shipping yet - prototypes this month/feb so it'll be a while before stuff actually works
Jan 13 10:58:29 <[g2]> well the thing about the Loft is that you could send these out to all the production facilities and control them via VPN or they could dump info to your site
Jan 13 10:59:02 <vmaster> ah, wookey, you're from aleph1, right?
Jan 13 10:59:23 <wookey_> Indeed - I'm just trying to understand why 2 computers is easier than one here (beyond expediency in terms of getting somthing up asap)
Jan 13 10:59:26 <wookey_> vmaster: I am
Jan 13 10:59:56 <wookey_> I suppose in practice you have to plug it into something (which would normally be a PC)
Jan 13 11:00:03 <[g2]> wookey_ here's why I'd spilt it that way
Jan 13 11:00:16 <[g2]> you just said it
Jan 13 11:00:24 <[g2]> the front end can vary
Jan 13 11:00:37 <wookey_> makes sense.
Jan 13 11:00:52 <[g2]> A loft would just a simple platform my there are _many_  even a NSLU2
Jan 13 11:01:21 <[g2]> I think you might want multiple dongles too
Jan 13 11:01:28 <[g2]> like 32 or even 64
Jan 13 11:01:44 <[g2]> then you could test boards in parallel
Jan 13 11:01:58 <wookey_> there is presumably a speed issue - jtag needs quite a lot f data (which is why it's bloody slow down a parallel port)
Jan 13 11:02:16 <vmaster> depends on how you use it
Jan 13 11:02:23 <wookey_> I have no idea how much data and thus whether 32 dongles would need a lot of bandwidth?
Jan 13 11:02:24 <[g2]> vmaster exactly
Jan 13 11:02:57 <[g2]> well that's part of the beauty of the Blackdog which has a hardcore local to the FPGA
Jan 13 11:03:21 <vmaster> if you want speed, you have to use the debug facilites provided by your target - using the openwince approach would kill a multi-mhz speed performance wise, too
Jan 13 11:03:27 <[g2]> wookey_ the Ballons are open right ?
Jan 13 11:03:38 <wookey_> [g2]: yep
Jan 13 11:03:43 <wookey_> you can build your own
Jan 13 11:03:49 <[g2]> we could probably get the netlist for the V1 or V2 to use as an example
Jan 13 11:04:00 <[g2]> or even help debug and setup the V3
Jan 13 11:04:12 <wookey_> that sounds good.
Jan 13 11:04:38 <[g2]> that's ARM9 based right ?
Jan 13 11:04:48 <wookey_> OK. I'll try and get you a netlist to play with shall I?
Jan 13 11:05:03 <wookey_> xscale
Jan 13 11:05:03 <[g2]> not yet
Jan 13 11:05:12 <[g2]> YUMMY
Jan 13 11:05:23 <[g2]> 255 ? 
Jan 13 11:05:27 <[g2]> PXA255
Jan 13 11:05:49 <prpplague> wookey_: we've been experimenting with a wide range of solutions for doing jtag here
Jan 13 11:06:05 <prpplague> wookey_: most of what we have come to realize is what [g2] is covering
Jan 13 11:06:11 <wookey_> where's here?
Jan 13 11:06:16 <prpplague> openjtag
Jan 13 11:06:17 <vmaster> #openjtag
Jan 13 11:06:21 <wookey_> g2 yes
Jan 13 11:07:16 <[g2]> do anybody know if the xscale cores are any different for JTAG between the PXA and IXP lines ?
Jan 13 11:07:46 <vmaster> you'll need a different debug handler for each one of them
Jan 13 11:08:00 <vmaster> but the hardware properties are the same
Jan 13 11:08:09 <[g2]> vmaster sure but this is more for BSDL
Jan 13 11:08:45 <[g2]> BSDL and Flashing initially
Jan 13 11:08:58 <[g2]> and all the horsepower to support debugging later
Jan 13 11:09:15 <[g2]> I'd think that beewoolie would be fine with this
Jan 13 11:09:35 <wookey_> all I know is xscale has a 32K debug zone intended for JTAG access built-in
Jan 13 11:09:40 <prpplague> wookey_: the ez-usb stuff can be reprogrammed fairly easy to do jtag, but the throughput doesn't come close to a dedicated device - http://www.elinux.org/wiki/EzUsb
Jan 13 11:09:50 <[g2]> and we can even possibly plug ep1220/other device into the blackdog for the level shifting / FPGA front-end
Jan 13 11:11:06 <[g2]> prpplague there are lots of different solutions to many different issues we are all facing
Jan 13 11:11:15 <prpplague> [g2]: yep
Jan 13 11:11:30 <prpplague> [g2]: although the blackdog idea sounds intriging
Jan 13 11:11:46 <[g2]> prpplague I think that'd just be a POC/proto
Jan 13 11:12:06 <[g2]> there are lots of different areas and to me the FPGA programming is the biggest risk
Jan 13 11:12:43 <lennert> why risk?
Jan 13 11:13:09 <wookey_> [g2]: I know the engineering dept here (Cambrdige) is very keen on the FPGA thing) - that's why there is one on balloon3
Jan 13 11:13:32 <wookey_> we might be able to get them interested in this as part of their 'multidisciplinary design project'
Jan 13 11:13:36 <[g2]> wookey_ you may have the contacts to get the FPGA side done
Jan 13 11:13:42 <wookey_> also in association with MIT
Jan 13 11:13:58 <[g2]> quite possible
Jan 13 11:14:09 <wookey_> see http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/index.html
Jan 13 11:14:10 <[g2]> I was thinking about just contracting a FPGA programmer
Jan 13 11:14:19 <wookey_> for bullshit about the project (which balloon is part of)
Jan 13 11:14:21 <[g2]> but there are many different solutions
Jan 13 11:14:48 <wookey_> they have quite a lot of student-power available if they are enthused about something
Jan 13 11:15:03 <wookey_> not always best quality, but you get smart people very cheap
Jan 13 11:16:17 <wookey_> [g2]: are you coming to mexico debconf?
Jan 13 11:16:37 <[g2]> I didn't know there was a mexican debconf
Jan 13 11:16:42 <wookey_> it being relatively close...
Jan 13 11:16:46 <wookey_> this may
Jan 13 11:16:55 <[g2]> cool when ?
Jan 13 11:17:25 <wookey_> http://debconf.org/
Jan 13 11:17:45 <[g2]> do i have to be a DD ?
Jan 13 11:17:49 <wookey_> nope
Jan 13 11:17:59 <[g2]> or does having a buildd machine count ? :)
Jan 13 11:18:07 <wookey_> Very cool way to actually meet a load people and talk about stuff
Jan 13 11:18:17 <wookey_> And do some hacking
Jan 13 11:18:36 * [g2] is very pleased with all the ppl I meet online
Jan 13 11:19:02 <[g2]> hopefully we'll be _done_ by may :)
Jan 13 11:19:10 <prpplague> beewoolie-afk: speak of the devil
Jan 13 11:19:10 <wookey_> Indeed, but the bandwidth of standing in the same place is good
Jan 13 11:19:21 <beewoolie-afk> Mornin.
Jan 13 11:19:40 <beewoolie-afk> Did I hear a deadline?
Jan 13 11:19:59 <wookey_> yep - deadlines make the world go round
Jan 13 11:22:14 <[g2]> beewoolie-afk hey
Jan 13 11:22:24 <[g2]> beewoolie-afk you know wookey_ right ?
Jan 13 11:22:25 <beewoolie-afk> [g2]: hey man.
Jan 13 11:22:29 <beewoolie-afk> Haven't met
Jan 13 11:22:35 <beewoolie-afk> wookey_: Pleased to meet you.
Jan 13 11:22:58 <[g2]> beewoolie-afk you know the Balloon hw right ?
Jan 13 11:23:11 <beewoolie-afk> URL?
Jan 13 11:23:28 <prpplague> http://www.aleph1.co.uk/armlinux/index.html
Jan 13 11:23:37 <prpplague> hehe i have it bookmarked
Jan 13 11:23:41 <[g2]> heh
Jan 13 11:24:06 <[g2]> wookey_ at aleph1
Jan 13 11:24:15 <[g2]> s/at/is at/
Jan 13 11:24:16 <purl> [g2] meant: wookey_ is at aleph1
Jan 13 11:24:37 <[g2]> it's an open board and they working on a V3 now
Jan 13 11:24:38 <beewoolie-afk> That's one of the DEC parts, right?
Jan 13 11:24:54 <[g2]> the new one has a PXA255 on it
Jan 13 11:25:10 <beewoolie-afk> No net?  Am I missing it?
Jan 13 11:25:21 <[g2]> it just a hw board 
Jan 13 11:25:48 <beewoolie-afk> It's all HW boards.  It would have to use USB ethernet for getting out.
Jan 13 11:25:52 <beewoolie-afk> Looks nice.
Jan 13 11:25:54 <[g2]> I'm pitching to wookey_ the idea about starting a test fixture business
Jan 13 11:26:03 <beewoolie-afk> Nice.
Jan 13 11:26:17 <beewoolie-afk> I'm making progress on the JTAG stuff.
Jan 13 11:26:19 <[g2]> they'd be the alpha user
Jan 13 11:26:26 <wookey_> better url for balloon is http://balloonbaord.org/
Jan 13 11:26:31 <wookey_> better url for balloon is http://balloonboard.org/
Jan 13 11:26:43 * [g2] watches prpplague update his bookmark
Jan 13 11:27:24 <prpplague> hehe
Jan 13 11:27:37 <wookey_> hi beewoolie-afk who are you?
Jan 13 11:27:51 <wookey_> a man who knows about jtag?
Jan 13 11:27:53 <beewoolie-afk> Sorry...
Jan 13 11:28:12 <wookey_> not afk :-)
Jan 13 11:28:13 <prpplague> [g2]: that page is linked from the aleph1 site anyeay
Jan 13 11:28:35 <beewoolie> Really, I'm ntk
Jan 13 11:28:37 <prpplague> wookey_: beewoolie currently does the sharp line of arm sdk's
Jan 13 11:29:01 <wookey_> for zaurus ?
Jan 13 11:29:03 <beewoolie> I got roped into this IRC by [g2] because I wrote a bootloader.
Jan 13 11:29:09 <beewoolie> wookey_: No, LH processors.
Jan 13 11:29:20 <prpplague> wookey_: hehe, no sharp has a line arm processors
Jan 13 11:29:23 <beewoolie> It's targeted to commercial users mostly.
Jan 13 11:29:23 <wookey_> right
Jan 13 11:29:42 <beewoolie> IMHO, they designed the processors to sell LCD panels.
Jan 13 11:29:50 <wookey_> I didn't know about that
Jan 13 11:30:08 <[g2]> it's like food at the pub
Jan 13 11:30:14 <[g2]> it's designed to sell beer
Jan 13 11:30:24 <beewoolie> And give indigestion.
Jan 13 11:30:29 <vmaster> heh
Jan 13 11:30:33 <prpplague> wookey_: i work for http://www.amltd.com/
Jan 13 11:30:36 <beewoolie> OK.  Salty to sell beer.
Jan 13 11:30:43 <prpplague> wookey_: we do custom handhelds and portable devices
Jan 13 11:30:47 <beewoolie> Nice.
Jan 13 11:31:15 <beewoolie> How much are these balloon boards?
Jan 13 11:31:44 <wookey_> v2 is expensive: GBP360 in ones, about 220 in hundreds
Jan 13 11:32:08 <wookey_> v3 should be less, but we're struggling to get it down to 8 layers instead of 10. proto is going to be 10
Jan 13 11:32:08 <beewoolie> v2 is Aleph 2.05?
Jan 13 11:32:14 <wookey_> correct
Jan 13 11:32:20 <wookey_> 2.05g
Jan 13 11:32:29 <wookey_> in fact is what we've made a lot of
Jan 13 11:32:43 <wookey_> obvioulsy build costs depnds which options you go for
Jan 13 11:33:51 <wookey_> be a lot less if you made them in china, instead of Norfolk :-)
Jan 13 11:34:28 <beewoolie> I didn't realize that labor was a significant component to building boards.
Jan 13 11:34:44 <wookey_> labour and plant costs
Jan 13 11:35:09 <wookey_> you need an awful lot of expensive kit these days, so cost of borrowing matters I suppose.
Jan 13 11:35:17 <beewoolie> I thought most folks hired-out board stuffing.
Jan 13 11:35:25 <wookey_> we do
Jan 13 11:35:29 <beewoolie> At least, I did when I worked for a firm that had boards built.
Jan 13 11:35:51 <wookey_> but to a fairly local outfit, who are good, but not particularly cheap
Jan 13 11:36:18 <wookey_> altough simtec build their stuff in-house
Jan 13 11:36:38 <[g2]> the cost of mgmt and vendor selection and time out weighs the cost of just doing it locally with a known entity
Jan 13 11:36:47 <beewoolie> Is the PXA CPU expensive?
Jan 13 11:36:57 <wookey_> [g2]: indeed it does, until you reach some (large) volume
Jan 13 11:37:05 <[g2]> wookey_ exactl!
Jan 13 11:37:13 <wookey_> beewoolie: in comparison to the samsung ones, yes
Jan 13 11:37:37 <beewoolie> Sharp's most expensive arm9 is about $15 IIRC.  It may be as much as $20.
Jan 13 11:38:02 <wookey_> I'm not doing buying but pxa255 is somewhere in the $20-$30 range I think
Jan 13 11:38:02 <beewoolie> I seem to recall it's quite affordable.  They even have one with a built-in MAC, but it's arm7.
Jan 13 11:38:35 <beewoolie> I suspect that the benefit from low cost of very old ARM IP.
Jan 13 11:38:56 <wookey_> v3 has tried to design out quite a lot of the cost in v2 - it'll be interesting to see how well that has gone 
Jan 13 11:39:06 <beewoolie> Cool.
Jan 13 11:39:15 <wookey_> but board is still a bit smaller than its natural size, which makes for expensive PCBs
Jan 13 11:39:27 <prpplague> wookey_: how many layers is it?
Jan 13 11:39:34 <wookey_> v2 was 10
Jan 13 11:39:39 <lennert> 19:32 < wookey_> v3 should be less, but we're struggling to get it down to 8
Jan 13 11:39:39 <lennert>                  layers instead of 10. proto is going to be 10
Jan 13 11:39:45 <beewoolie> Is that including the raspberry layer?
Jan 13 11:39:56 <wookey_> see - lennert is watching :-)
Jan 13 11:40:06 <lennert> wookey_: you bet!
Jan 13 11:40:06 <wookey_> I don't know what that is?
Jan 13 11:40:16 <lennert> i'd prefer a whipped cream layer
Jan 13 11:40:30 <[g2]> wookey_ are you doing a PXA270 on there ?
Jan 13 11:40:52 <beewoolie> lennert: I think you might need to learn to bake some desserts
Jan 13 11:41:03 <prpplague> lennert: thanks, i closed my irc client out earlier
Jan 13 11:41:06 <wookey_> no, pxa255 - (I said above)
Jan 13 11:41:24 <[g2]> wookey_ the specs still say pxa270 :(
Jan 13 11:41:30 <wookey_> prpplague: ah yes - so you did - and missed that very line :-)
Jan 13 11:41:47 <wookey_> oh - well in that case the spaces are probably right and I'm wrong :-)
Jan 13 11:42:41 <wookey_> is that on the MDP Cambridge site?
Jan 13 11:42:45 <[g2]> yeah
Jan 13 11:42:53 <[g2]> no
Jan 13 11:43:26 <[g2]> heh yeah http://www-mdp-eng.cam.ac.uk/about/mdp_balloon_spec.pdf
Jan 13 11:43:39 <[g2]> the link comes from balloon.org
Jan 13 11:43:42 <wookey_> yeah - that the best info current online
Jan 13 11:44:08 <wookey_> we're just getting our finger out to fix the wiki that's been dead all year and collect the info on the site
Jan 13 11:44:12 <[g2]> and the LCD interface !
Jan 13 11:44:32 <vmaster> mhh, that link doesn't work for me
Jan 13 11:44:43 <wookey_> http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/about/mdp_balloon_spec.pdf
Jan 13 11:44:53 <vmaster> ah, thx
Jan 13 11:44:55 <[g2]> wookey_ thx
Jan 13 11:45:00 <wookey_> (never type URLs - fatal) :-)
Jan 13 11:45:17 <[g2-lap]> different computer
Jan 13 11:45:20 <wookey_> I need to go home and tlak to the missus for 5 minutes...
Jan 13 11:45:22 <[g2-lap]> not anymore
Jan 13 11:45:35 <wookey_> more later
Jan 13 11:45:42 <[g2]> wookey_ THX for talking with us
Jan 13 11:46:09 <prpplague> wookey_: nice to have to stop in
Jan 13 11:46:15 <prpplague> i/you
Jan 13 11:46:21 * [g2] hope wookey_ gets to do more than just talk :)
Jan 13 11:46:38 <wookey_> no, I spend far too much time just talking...
Jan 13 11:46:51 <wookey_> (which is very useful but doesn't get all the other things done...)
Jan 13 11:46:58 * wookey_ leaves
Jan 13 11:47:20 <lennert> wookey_: bye
Jan 13 11:47:30 <[g2]> cheers
Jan 13 11:47:40 <beewoolie> Bye wookey_ 
Jan 13 11:48:33 <[g2]> Ok I'll toss this out
Jan 13 11:48:47 * beewoolie ducks
Jan 13 11:49:05 <lennert> what are you tossing out? money? :)
Jan 13 11:49:08 <prpplague> wookey_: later
Jan 13 11:49:35 <prpplague> its time for those in the UK to start their friday night pub crawl anyway
Jan 13 11:49:41 <[g2]> I'd know who interested in working on solving this problem of the test fixture issue
Jan 13 11:49:45 <vmaster> at 18:50?
Jan 13 11:50:21 <[g2]> basically it's high-speed JTAG plus netlist munger and magic
Jan 13 11:50:37 <[g2]> that we could then use and sell 
Jan 13 11:51:14 <beewoolie> Sounds like a good target.  I've been musing about what sort of pre-packaged solutions this could proved.
Jan 13 11:51:19 <beewoolie> s/proved/provide/
Jan 13 11:51:19 <purl> beewoolie meant: Sounds like a good target.  I've been musing about what sort of pre-packaged solutions this could provide.
Jan 13 11:52:10 <[g2]> beewoolie a friend is interested in having this problem solved and I'm interested in it too
Jan 13 11:52:23 <prpplague> vmaster: sure.....get started early
Jan 13 11:52:38 <[g2]> This is the reason to focus on the high-speed JTAG
Jan 13 11:52:43 <lennert> 18:50 _early_ ??
Jan 13 11:52:49 <lennert> we always go to the bar at 17:00
Jan 13 11:52:53 <lennert> every single day
Jan 13 11:52:58 <prpplague> lennert: hehe
Jan 13 11:53:00 <[g2]> as it's a driving cost factor in test fixture and manufacturing time
Jan 13 11:53:03 <beewoolie> [g2]: I was just talking about this with ka6sox.
Jan 13 11:53:04 <lennert> workin 9 to 5, baby
Jan 13 11:53:31 <vmaster> how do you get the test vectors?
Jan 13 11:53:35 <beewoolie> I think we need to come up with something that can signal up to 40MHz.
Jan 13 11:53:43 <beewoolie> None of our current designs go that fast.
Jan 13 11:53:53 <lennert> vmaster: generate them from the netlist
Jan 13 11:53:55 <[g2]> beewoolie ideally yes,
Jan 13 11:54:08 <[g2]> I think we could start with 10Mhz
Jan 13 11:54:13 <beewoolie> [g2]: I wrote a parser for BSDL files.  It isn't so useful to me at the moment, but it will make test fixtures useful.
Jan 13 11:54:28 <beewoolie> [g2]: Well, we've got something like 3MHz with the ftdi chip.
Jan 13 11:54:41 <vmaster> beewoolie: not even close to that in reality
Jan 13 11:54:43 <beewoolie> I've been working on the JTAG component.
Jan 13 11:54:46 <vmaster> more like 1 mhz
Jan 13 11:54:56 <beewoolie> vmaster: with latencies?
Jan 13 11:55:00 <vmaster> yeah
Jan 13 11:55:00 <[g2]> That's great for initial testing
Jan 13 11:55:16 <beewoolie> heck, that isn't much of an improvement over a parallel dongle.
Jan 13 11:55:28 <beewoolie> I get about 264KHz out of a parallel interface.
Jan 13 11:55:31 <vmaster> if all you do is scanning around the 500+ boundary scan pins and waiting for that to return you'll end up with much less
Jan 13 11:55:39 <vmaster> beewoolie: yeah, that's what i have here, too
Jan 13 11:55:51 <beewoolie> That's really disappointing.
Jan 13 11:56:01 <beewoolie> It makes the USB device far less interesting that I thought.
Jan 13 11:56:12 <[g2]> ah
Jan 13 11:56:14 <lennert> what does the xilinx platform usb cable get?
Jan 13 11:56:20 <beewoolie> In fact, it makes it not worth much effort.
Jan 13 11:56:24 <[g2]> I think it's great for flashing and maybe some debug
Jan 13 11:56:29 <beewoolie> lennert: That's what I've been using.
Jan 13 11:56:30 <vmaster> well, it really depends on what you do with it
Jan 13 11:56:57 <beewoolie> I've been using it as a platform to stand on to get JTAG code working.
Jan 13 11:57:03 <vmaster> if you're able to scan a lot of data without depending on the results, you can probably go beyond 1 mhz
Jan 13 11:57:16 <vmaster> beewoolie: he's talking about the usb one
Jan 13 11:57:18 <[g2]> hence the 3 MHz
Jan 13 11:57:26 <lennert> my laptop does 740k parallel port writes per second, so that's ~370kHz
Jan 13 11:57:39 <lennert> beewoolie: the platform usb one
Jan 13 11:57:41 <lennert> vmaster: right
Jan 13 11:57:51 <vmaster> that comes with a ez-usb and a cpld
Jan 13 11:58:02 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 11:58:08 <[g2]> 3 Mhz = 6MHz / 2 for clock edges right ?
Jan 13 11:58:14 <vmaster> mhh, no
Jan 13 11:58:16 <beewoolie> I'll suppose I'll have to see for myself what I can make it do.
Jan 13 11:58:17 <vmaster> 6 mhz is maximum
Jan 13 11:58:30 <lennert> http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xebiz/designResources/ip_product_details.jsp?sGlobalNavPick=PRODUCTS&sSecondaryNavPick=Design+Tools&key=HW-USB
Jan 13 11:58:32 <vmaster> what you can set the chip to
Jan 13 11:58:48 <vmaster> but with usb latencies you end up at a lot less
Jan 13 11:59:13 <beewoolie> Right.  So programming flash, for example, could be quite a bit faster.
Jan 13 11:59:21 <beewoolie> Than reading registers from the CPU.
Jan 13 11:59:43 <beewoolie> lennert: What are they selling it for?
Jan 13 11:59:43 <vmaster> mhh, when programming the flash you're waiting for results, too, aren't you?
Jan 13 11:59:51 <beewoolie> Not necessarily.
Jan 13 11:59:53 <lennert> beewoolie: $150 ?
Jan 13 12:00:01 <beewoolie> lennert: K.
Jan 13 12:00:04 <lennert> beewoolie: ridiculously overpriced if you ask me
Jan 13 12:00:11 <beewoolie> It depends on the method.
Jan 13 12:00:14 <lennert> beewoolie: but hard to do it cheaper on your own
Jan 13 12:00:14 <prpplague> beewoolie: depends on the process
Jan 13 12:00:28 <beewoolie> beewoolie: The ep1220 board is going to be about $50.
Jan 13 12:00:37 <prpplague> beewoolie: i usually program all the data, then go back and verify
Jan 13 12:00:52 <beewoolie> lennert: er, yeah.  ep1220's board is about that in parts.
Jan 13 12:01:11 <lennert> beewoolie: $150 ?
Jan 13 12:01:18 <vmaster> prpplague: don't you have to wait for the flash state machine to complete the last cycle?
Jan 13 12:01:57 <vmaster> you could pretend that the flash is always fast enough, but at 6mhz that _could_ not hold true
Jan 13 12:01:59 <beewoolie> vmaster: it depends on the way that the program data is stored.
Jan 13 12:02:19 <beewoolie> It could setup SDRAM and store the data there while programming.
Jan 13 12:02:20 <prpplague> vmaster: using a parport we don't have to worry about that, i've never had a timeout
Jan 13 12:02:29 <vmaster> heh, yeah, not on the parport
Jan 13 12:02:35 <vmaster> but on the ep1220 for example
Jan 13 12:02:52 <lennert> can you read from sdram via jtag at all?
Jan 13 12:02:59 <lennert> won't the ddr be a problem?
Jan 13 12:03:12 <vmaster> lennert: i guess he's talking about using the processor to do the flashing
Jan 13 12:03:32 <vmaster> i.e. copying the flash algorithm to the target ram, and let it run from there
Jan 13 12:03:39 <beewoolie> right.
Jan 13 12:03:43 <vmaster> but that's not where g2 is going
Jan 13 12:03:44 <prpplague> yea you;d have to do it through the processor
Jan 13 12:03:46 <beewoolie> Actually, the code could be in cache.
Jan 13 12:03:48 <lennert> right..
Jan 13 12:04:06 <lennert> you'd need the cpu to access ram
Jan 13 12:04:21 <beewoolie> [g2]: I thought that you were interested in verification.  flashing is a secondary goal.
Jan 13 12:04:42 <vmaster> i guess g2 wants to do flashing the "openwince" way
Jan 13 12:04:44 <beewoolie> [g2]: Perhaps, it's fast flashing that is the secondary goal.
Jan 13 12:05:00 <beewoolie> ka6sox would disagree
Jan 13 12:05:11 <beewoolie> ouch.
Jan 13 12:05:42 <lennert> openwince does cpu pin toggling?
Jan 13 12:05:51 <vmaster> yeah
Jan 13 12:05:56 <beewoolie> ouch.
Jan 13 12:06:01 <lennert> that's Evil
Jan 13 12:06:12 <lennert> and un-'portable'
Jan 13 12:06:14 <beewoolie> Naive
Jan 13 12:06:22 <lennert> (whatever 'portable' means in this context)
Jan 13 12:06:23 <vmaster> yeah, but it allows you to support ANY target processor as long as you have a bsdl file
Jan 13 12:06:41 <beewoolie> True.
Jan 13 12:06:58 <beewoolie> It's clearly a good solution of last resort for that fact.
Jan 13 12:07:38 <prpplague> vmaster: hehe and accurate bsdl file
Jan 13 12:07:44 <prpplague> s/and/a
Jan 13 12:07:50 <vmaster> heh, yeah
Jan 13 12:07:53 <beewoolie> prpplague: You got that right.
Jan 13 12:07:55 <vmaster> well, bsdl is like black magic to me
Jan 13 12:08:06 <vmaster> it seems so overly complicated
Jan 13 12:08:13 <beewoolie> Crummy syntax.
Jan 13 12:08:20 <beewoolie> Reminds me of SGML.
Jan 13 12:09:03 <beewoolie> I wrote a parser for it, but it isn't sufficient because a lot of the data is held in strings within the BSDL structure.  Those strings must then be parsed.
Jan 13 12:09:09 <vmaster> hehehe, yeah
Jan 13 12:09:17 <vmaster> i have someone doing this for me
Jan 13 12:09:20 <vmaster> writing the bsdl parser
Jan 13 12:09:30 <vmaster> i guess he's done with the parsing part
Jan 13 12:09:34 <vmaster> including parsing the strings
Jan 13 12:09:47 <vmaster> and he cursed about these strings for days, if not weeks
Jan 13 12:09:48 <[g2]> beewoolie there are several goals
Jan 13 12:10:09 * beewoolie is all ears
Jan 13 12:10:11 <[g2]> I'm no test fixture expert (yet heh) but time is important all around
Jan 13 12:10:44 <vmaster> what does such a test look like?
Jan 13 12:11:14 <[g2]> I think we have the opportunity to become the enablers for small board manufactures to scale better or produce much higher quality products
Jan 13 12:11:21 <[g2]> i.e. they are actually verified
Jan 13 12:11:46 <vmaster> i've seen some videos on the macraigor site where they demonstrated their jtag software, but what they did seemed rather limited
Jan 13 12:12:18 <[g2]> vmaster wookey_ mentioned borrowing the XJTAG for the post-production build
Jan 13 12:12:41 <[g2]> I'll be looking at www.xjtag.com as they may provide a lot of information
Jan 13 12:13:04 <lennert> looking at it naively.. i would try to test all nets for 0 and 1
Jan 13 12:13:06 <[g2]> I'm gonna start writing up some information about this and what's needed
Jan 13 12:13:12 <lennert> (except the nets that are hooked to gnd/vcc directly)
Jan 13 12:13:22 <lennert> so.. inject data from each of the source pins
Jan 13 12:13:27 <lennert> and test on each of the destination pins
Jan 13 12:13:29 * [g2] hugs lennert 
Jan 13 12:13:36 <lennert> but that's probably very naive
Jan 13 12:13:40 <lennert> [g2] :)
Jan 13 12:13:46 <[g2]> actually I think you want to interpret the netlist
Jan 13 12:13:50 <vmaster> well, yeah, but you can only check those nets that are connected to two jtagged devices
Jan 13 12:13:55 <vmaster> like, a uC and the fpga
Jan 13 12:13:56 <lennert> [g2]: yup
Jan 13 12:14:03 <lennert> [g2]: generate the vectors from the netlist
Jan 13 12:14:09 <lennert> [g2]: iterate over the netlist, test each net
Jan 13 12:14:10 <[g2]> and check stuff like all the grounds are tied together and now are tied to VCC
Jan 13 12:14:28 <lennert> not sure whether you can test vcc and gnd continuity.. ?
Jan 13 12:14:37 <lennert> vmaster: indeed, otherwise it's no use
Jan 13 12:15:08 <lennert> well, in the second stage, you can add some intelligence like testing simple combinatorial logic devices and/or flipflops
Jan 13 12:15:14 <lennert> but doing that from the netlist is harder
Jan 13 12:15:27 <[g2]> vmaster this is where your understanding of JTAG may be very helpful
Jan 13 12:15:30 <lennert> so, if you have an octal flipflop, and all input/output pins go to jtag-accessible devices, for example
Jan 13 12:15:58 <[g2]> I think we need to talk about different models such as a single device on the chain and multiple devices on the chain
Jan 13 12:16:14 <lennert> a friend of mine had a board with a broken pullup, where changing the state of a pin needed 3 seconds to propagate
Jan 13 12:16:55 <beewoolie> lennert: Great test case.
Jan 13 12:16:55 <[g2]> right, I want to verify all the pullup/pull downs to the processor config lines
Jan 13 12:17:15 <[g2]> and by knowing the chip and the netlist and config I think you could test that
Jan 13 12:17:20 <vmaster> mhh, okay, but is this something you can identify by just looking at the netlist?
Jan 13 12:17:38 <[g2]> it's not a simple problem
Jan 13 12:17:40 <prpplague> [g2] yea thats one of core items for jtag purpose
Jan 13 12:17:57 <[g2]> prpplague yeah I think this is done is spades
Jan 13 12:18:33 <lennert> generating as much test patterns as possible is key, i think
Jan 13 12:18:38 <lennert> s/much/many/
Jan 13 12:18:38 <purl> lennert meant: generating as many test patterns as possible is key, i think
Jan 13 12:18:54 <lennert> using all the info you have
Jan 13 12:19:58 <lennert> let's see if wookey sends that netlist
Jan 13 12:24:47 <[g2]> We can start with and old B2 netlist
Jan 13 12:24:54 <[g2]> s/and/as/
Jan 13 12:24:55 <purl> [g2] meant: We can start with as old B2 netlist
Jan 13 12:24:59 <[g2]> s/as/an
Jan 13 12:25:02 <[g2]> s/as/an/
Jan 13 12:25:02 <purl> [g2] meant: s/an/an
Jan 13 12:25:08 <[g2]> heh
Jan 13 12:25:14 <[g2]> We can start with an old B2 netlist
Jan 13 12:25:48 <[g2]> wookey_ may have some B2 boards around maybe even broken ones and they'd be best as we could determine what was hosed
Jan 13 12:33:39 <beewoolie> ep1220: hey.
Jan 13 12:33:46 <ep1220> hey beewoolie
Jan 13 12:34:01 <prpplague> ep1220: hey is for horses
Jan 13 12:34:21 <beewoolie> prpplague: what are you, 60 years old?
Jan 13 12:35:13 <prpplague> beewoolie: i feel that old
Jan 13 12:36:00 <prpplague> gotta head out , later folks
Jan 13 12:36:11 <beewoolie> later...
Jan 13 12:37:41 <ep1220> beewoolie: keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:42 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:42 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:42 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:42 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:42 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:44 <ep1220> keeping the CPU in rest while the cache is loaded, is what i referred to.
Jan 13 12:37:46 <ep1220> beewoolie: to answer Your e-mail
Jan 13 12:37:57 <beewoolie> Right.
Jan 13 12:38:04 <beewoolie> BTW, you don't need to shout.
Jan 13 12:38:07 <beewoolie> :-)
Jan 13 12:38:14 <ep1220> sorry, i know 1 time is enough
Jan 13 12:38:16 <beewoolie> I'm glad to know I was wrong.
Jan 13 12:38:38 <beewoolie> ep1220: What kind of performance are you seeing?  Can you qualify/quantify?
Jan 13 12:40:00 <ep1220> When I send commands to the FTDI backto back I can approach 4.5Mbit effective TCK rate 
Jan 13 12:40:32 <ep1220> TCKis set to 6Mhz, but the FTDI adds some pauses between every 8 databits
Jan 13 12:40:34 <ka6sox-office> hi ep1220 
Jan 13 12:40:41 <ep1220> ka6sox-office: Hi
Jan 13 12:40:44 <ka6sox-office> I"m back from moving and other maladies
Jan 13 12:40:55 <beewoolie> ka6sox-office: hey
Jan 13 12:40:57 <ka6sox-office> my board is working wonderfully;)
Jan 13 12:41:04 <ka6sox-office> hiya beewoolie 
Jan 13 12:41:28 <ep1220> I'm back from holidays :-)
Jan 13 12:41:33 <beewoolie> ep1220: Can you write to flash as fast as the device can be programmed?
Jan 13 12:42:50 <ep1220> I have not tried flash programming so far
Jan 13 12:44:15 <ep1220> If You do progarmming thru the JTAG chain, it is not possible.
Jan 13 12:44:33 <beewoolie> ep1220: it is not possible to do what?
Jan 13 12:44:50 <ep1220> to prog as fast as the device allows
Jan 13 12:46:09 <beewoolie> So, the answer is kinda-yes.  The JTAG is slower than the flash device when programming.  
Jan 13 12:46:39 <beewoolie> what have you done with your cache-loaded code/
Jan 13 12:47:29 <ep1220> It just turned on/off one of the LEDs.
Jan 13 12:47:36 <beewoolie> :=)
Jan 13 12:47:43 <beewoolie> Nice.
Jan 13 12:48:21 <beewoolie> it would be really handy if we could tell the compiler to produce code that doesn't perform data loads for constants.
Jan 13 12:48:34 <ep1220> well, easiest way to verify the prog i downloaded does what it is supposed to ;-)
Jan 13 12:49:17 <ka6sox-office> back in 2hrs
Jan 13 12:49:29 <beewoolie> ka6sox-office: later.
Jan 13 12:49:29 <ep1220> having a compiler with that option would be great
Jan 13 12:50:11 <beewoolie> I've been contemplating what it would take to write something of size without pc relative loads.
Jan 13 12:50:42 <beewoolie> I may just have to use some macros to handle 32 bit constants.
Jan 13 12:51:09 <[g2]> ep1220 happy new year
Jan 13 12:52:14 <ep1220> [g2]: Thank You; hope you have a great year too
Jan 13 12:53:19 <ep1220> beewoolie:  I believe writing a flash program in assembly should be possible as well
Jan 13 12:53:32 <beewoolie> I'm working to get there.
Jan 13 12:53:50 <beewoolie> I want to use the DCC port to send the data.
Jan 13 12:54:37 <vmaster> beewoolie: the dcc is of limited use with the ft2232c
Jan 13 12:54:41 <vmaster> because of the latency
Jan 13 12:55:07 <beewoolie> That depends on how it is used.
Jan 13 12:55:11 <beewoolie> ;-)
Jan 13 12:55:18 <ep1220> vMaster: No, you do not need to handshake every word
Jan 13 12:55:38 <vmaster> mhh, at 6mhz you could outrun the target, couldn't you?
Jan 13 12:55:41 <ep1220> the CPU is a lot faster than the 4 or 5Mbit/sec
Jan 13 12:55:55 <beewoolie> If the jtag is slower than the flash device, there is no need to wait.
Jan 13 12:56:07 <beewoolie> Moreover, there are lots of way to buffer data so that it is efficient.
Jan 13 12:56:15 <vmaster> a atmel at91 might be running from a 32khz clock
Jan 13 12:56:38 <beewoolie> Exceptions just make the task more interesting.
Jan 13 12:59:38 <velinp> hi. may I collect wisdom here? :)
Jan 13 12:59:53 <beewoolie> Put the money on the barrelhead.
Jan 13 13:01:01 <beewoolie> :-)
Jan 13 13:02:18 <velinp> nothing for free, eh :)
Jan 13 13:02:36 <beewoolie> All depends on what you want?  Advice is really cheap/.
Jan 13 13:04:05 <velinp> well, I was thinking about fattening an NSLU2 (32M now). It seems safer to add another 32MB than cleanup and go the 256MB way. what do you think?
Jan 13 13:05:44 <beewoolie> I've never done either.  I know that the openslug web site has some info about it.
Jan 13 13:07:09 <[g2]> ep1220 it's nice to see you again
Jan 13 13:08:03 <velinp> beewoolie: yes, I saw it; thought someone of you guys did it; sorry if I was wrong.
Jan 13 13:08:34 <beewoolie> I believe that ka6sox-office has done this at least once.  rwhitby as well.
Jan 13 13:10:14 <ep1220> [g2]: hows Your Loft coming along ?
Jan 13 13:12:55 <velinp> bewoolie: thanks; may I have ka6sox-office e-mail as rwhitby seems quite busy; I've tried ka6sox@gmail.com and tking@websb.net - no answer.
Jan 13 13:17:28 <beewoolie> That's not something that we do here.
Jan 13 13:17:42 <beewoolie> If they choose to be unavailable, that's their choice.
Jan 13 13:18:04 <velinp> I see; sorry I asked
Jan 13 13:19:37 <[g2]> ep1220 Great thx. They are pretty much in production now
Jan 13 13:19:54 <[g2]> I've got about a 12 dozen left and 100 being built
Jan 13 13:20:29 <ep1220> [g2]: congrats
Jan 13 13:20:33 <lennert> re
Jan 13 13:20:36 <lennert> damn internet died on me again
Jan 13 13:20:48 <[g2]> ep1220 thx
Jan 13 13:21:05 <[g2]> I've been hearing cool things about your board
Jan 13 13:21:16 <[g2]> lennert wb
Jan 13 13:21:25 <lennert> thanks
Jan 13 13:22:05 <velinp> hi, lennert; remember me? (aug/sep '05)
Jan 13 13:22:48 <ep1220> [g2]: Good :-), i am not up-to-date with what happened here.
Jan 13 13:22:49 <ep1220>  I checked the logs at rikers.org but the last days seem quite incomplete.
Jan 13 13:23:23 <lennert> velinp: yup, the bulgarian guy.
Jan 13 13:23:59 <velinp> yes, I am; go offline?
Jan 13 13:24:23 <lennert> what?
Jan 13 13:24:28 <lennert> me, go offline?
Jan 13 13:24:30 <lennert> why?
Jan 13 13:24:31 <lennert> :)
Jan 13 13:24:53 <velinp> no, I meant not to bother the rest
Jan 13 13:25:33 <lennert> you're not bothering?
Jan 13 13:28:05 <velinp> ok, I go on; I have an armeb-buildd (by wouter) on my slug and am looking for help about adding ram to it; 
Jan 13 13:28:35 <lennert> i can't provide you that help personally, i'm afraid
Jan 13 13:30:41 <velinp> anyway, thanks. it was a pleasure to meet you here; and i'm a complete newbie to irc.
Jan 13 13:31:54 <lennert> well, feel free to hang around
Jan 13 13:32:04 <lennert> ka6sox may come back soon and give you some help
Jan 13 13:32:39 <velinp> ok, thanks; i now go into readonly mode
Jan 13 13:32:58 <lennert> okay
Jan 13 13:33:07 <lennert> we talk about interesting stuff here all the time :)
Jan 13 13:38:54 <vmaster> we do?
Jan 13 13:41:19 <lennert> vmaster: only when you're asleep, though
Jan 13 13:41:34 * lennert hides :)
Jan 13 13:51:11 <[g2]> anyone know what SVF and STAPL files are ?
Jan 13 13:54:16 <velinp> seems xilinx related; see http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/xilinx7/help/iseguide/mergedProjects/dkxilinx/html/pp_process_generate_svf_file.htm
Jan 13 13:58:21 <lennert> SVF has instructions for a jtag player
Jan 13 13:58:26 <lennert> XSVF is the binary version
Jan 13 13:58:56 <lennert> vmaster is the expert on this
Jan 13 13:59:07 <[g2-lap]> lennert can you take a look at http://www.xjtag.com/docs/XJTAG_data_sheet.pdf
Jan 13 14:01:08 <lennert> looking
Jan 13 14:02:00 <lennert> kind of what i had in mind
Jan 13 14:02:18 <[g2]> yeah me too
Jan 13 14:02:20 <lennert> but they also have something to control pins by hand
Jan 13 14:02:40 <lennert> i was thinking of doing something that does everything automaticaclly first
Jan 13 14:02:49 <[g2]> and a runner (production version) versus development version
Jan 13 14:03:02 <lennert> i suck at GUIs
Jan 13 14:03:21 <[g2]> we don't need you to do GUIs
Jan 13 14:03:22 <lennert> GUIs are _hard_ to get right
Jan 13 14:03:43 <[g2]> they are _hard_ to look right
Jan 13 14:05:34 <wookey_> [g2-lap]: yes I have a few broken balloon 2 boards
Jan 13 14:06:06 <[g2]> wookey_ they'd make for good test kit no ?
Jan 13 14:06:56 <[g2]> wookey_ can you fill me in on the Cambridge Technology Group ?
Jan 13 14:07:07 <[g2]> are they spinoffs from Cambridge ?
Jan 13 14:09:35 <wookey_> [g2-lap]: playxsvf is the player xilinx probvide to inject code into their devices
Jan 13 14:09:42 <wookey_> it the binary version of svf
Jan 13 14:09:50 <wookey_> those files are compiled from thre .jed files
Jan 13 14:10:00 <lennert> .bit for fpgas
Jan 13 14:10:34 <wookey_> cambridge technology group - wher is the reference?
Jan 13 14:11:29 <wookey_> btw lennert you were tsalking about patterns above - an important one is checking for shorts by setting adjacent wires to opposite state
Jan 13 14:12:00 <wookey_> I should try and get our JTAG expert on here, but I don't knwo if he does IRC
Jan 13 14:12:04 <[g2-lap]> wookey_, bottom right hand corner it's three companies http://www.xjtag.com/xjanalyser.php
Jan 13 14:12:19 <wookey_> and he'll probably just say 'but XJTAG is bbloody marvellous - just use that'
Jan 13 14:12:32 <lennert> wookey_: if there's a short and you drive opposite values you can blow up output buffers..
Jan 13 14:13:13 <wookey_> hmm - well - I understnad it's something xjatg does, and we did when we wrote code to acheive the same job in pre-jtag days
Jan 13 14:13:37 <wookey_> their interface is good too - shows you a pic of the chip and you can double click on a pin to change it's state
Jan 13 14:13:46 <wookey_> very useful when you are scoping round a board
Jan 13 14:13:48 <lennert> you can perhaps configure the adjacent pin as an input..
Jan 13 14:14:47 <wookey_> lennert: if the short is going to break the hardware then it will do it when you turn it on if XJTAG doesn't spot it first, I woulod have thought - so you don't lose anything?
Jan 13 14:15:27 <lennert> wookey_: but you'd like to find it before you turn it on, and possibly desolder the component if you can, i think?
Jan 13 14:16:05 <wookey_> [g2-lap]: I haven't come across the CTG before, but they are obviously local
Jan 13 14:16:55 <[g2]> wookey_ I was guessing it might be associated with the uni but it's just the name
Jan 13 14:17:14 <[g2]> crafty name at that :)
Jan 13 14:17:22 <wookey_> yeah, there are an awful lot of companies with 'cambridge' in the name, including some in the US
Jan 13 14:17:42 <wookey_> Quite a few are founded by ex-university people
Jan 13 14:17:45 <[g2]> Cambridge Triangle Research :)
Jan 13 14:17:59 <[g2]> or RTC
Jan 13 14:18:06 <lennert> real time clock? :)
Jan 13 14:18:07 <[g2]> instead of RTP
Jan 13 14:18:13 <lennert> real time protocol
Jan 13 14:18:27 <[g2]> Research Triangle Park  near me :)
Jan 13 14:18:33 <[g2]> NC
Jan 13 14:27:03 <AchiestDragon> ok so they offer a free 15 day trial but dont tell you how much it is 
Jan 13 14:29:15 <lennert> AchiestDragon: 'free'? :)
Jan 13 14:29:23 <lennert> it's probably one of those..
Jan 13 14:29:29 <lennert> "if you have to ask you can't afford it" things
Jan 13 14:30:10 <AchiestDragon> well guess thay would charge you interest for the free trial in the price when you pay for it 
Jan 13 14:32:26 <beewoolie> What does the real deal cost?
Jan 13 14:32:46 <lennert> AchiestDragon: they probably use the free trial to see how interested you are and charge you accordingly
Jan 13 14:32:55 <beewoolie> [g2]: BTW, I added MMU support to APEX for Voodoo_Z.  If it works, it will make booting from Jffs2 much faster.
Jan 13 14:33:07 <[g2]> beewoolie cool
Jan 13 14:33:24 <[g2]> redboot to ramdisk is lighting on the Loft
Jan 13 14:33:31 <vmaster> beewoolie: Macraigor J-Scan is very similar, and costs 1895$
Jan 13 14:33:33 <[g2]> I think it's under 10 seconds
Jan 13 14:33:56 <beewoolie> [g2]: redboot uses the MMU.  Once it is enable on APEX, it should be the same speed.
Jan 13 14:35:01 <beewoolie> vmaster: That doesn't seem to be unreasonable.
Jan 13 14:35:34 <[g2]> beewoolie probably a little faster with APEX
Jan 13 14:35:47 <vmaster> beewoolie: their usbdemon is a ft2232c
Jan 13 14:35:59 <vmaster> beewoolie: and the usbdemon is 750$
Jan 13 14:36:02 <[g2]> I'd like to get APEX running on the board, but there's 16MB NOR
Jan 13 14:36:24 <[g2]> beewoolie I think wookey_ commented something about thousands of pounds
Jan 13 14:36:46 <beewoolie> [g2]: How does the larger NOR flash change things?
Jan 13 14:37:10 <beewoolie> vmaster: OK, that's way too much for the hardware.
Jan 13 14:37:58 <AchiestDragon> ok , couple of questions , as im new to the chan to try and find out if this is going to be sutable 
Jan 13 14:38:49 <[g2]> beewoolie right this second a small footprint bootloader isn't as necessary
Jan 13 14:39:04 <[g2]> AchiestDragon shoot
Jan 13 14:39:15 <AchiestDragon> i have a arm based board , and am building a fpga based expantion for it , i want to be able to program the device when needed using the arm cpu prefreablay by jtag 
Jan 13 14:39:18 <beewoolie> [g2]: Indeed.  But the point of APEX wasn't just small.
Jan 13 14:39:24 <beewoolie> [g2]: ...-ness.
Jan 13 14:40:21 <AchiestDragon> the arm board is a ts7200 by http://www.embededarm.com and the fpga is a cyclone2 
Jan 13 14:40:41 <beewoolie> AchiestDragon: seems like a reasonable goal.
Jan 13 14:40:43 <[g2]> ep9302
Jan 13 14:40:47 <[g2]> processor 
Jan 13 14:40:51 <AchiestDragon> yes
Jan 13 14:41:06 <[g2]> I've got two
Jan 13 14:41:42 <[g2]> they don't bring out JTAG
Jan 13 14:42:04 <[g2]> and their very low-level boot isn't open
Jan 13 14:42:22 <lennert> i think he wants to use gpios
Jan 13 14:42:32 <lennert> he wants to program _another_ device using the ep9302
Jan 13 14:42:46 <AchiestDragon> the jatag on there board only provides connection to the xilinx fpga that they use for decode, 
Jan 13 14:43:36 <beewoolie> AchiestDragon: my intuition is that you aren't going to get much out of JTAG'n this thing.
Jan 13 14:43:37 <AchiestDragon> the board i am building is a pc/104 board , and was goingto use the ts7200 dio to do the jtag host 
Jan 13 14:44:00 <AchiestDragon> just need to program the device 
Jan 13 14:44:03 <beewoolie> AchiestDragon: You're better off writing code for the device and handling the work there.  You can use a serial port, for example, for comm.
Jan 13 14:44:19 <beewoolie> Why?
Jan 13 14:44:36 <beewoolie> I mean, are you talking about performing a JTAG emulation in software?
Jan 13 14:45:00 <AchiestDragon> although i am interested in linux based software for jtag for other uses also , if i dont have to spend lots of $ on adaptors 
Jan 13 14:45:03 <lennert> he wants to program an fpga
Jan 13 14:45:08 <lennert> with a cirrus arm cpu
Jan 13 14:45:12 <lennert> cause the fpga is on the daughterboard
Jan 13 14:45:21 <lennert> to program the fpga, he needs jtag
Jan 13 14:45:25 <lennert> as far as i understood
Jan 13 14:45:28 <AchiestDragon> yes
Jan 13 14:45:35 <beewoolie> Oh.  I see.  He wants code on the CPU to run jtag on the FPGA.
Jan 13 14:45:55 <lennert> yes
Jan 13 14:46:05 <beewoolie> Well, at the moment, there is code in the form of openwince's jtag, vmaster has some ftdi code, and there are a few others lying around
Jan 13 14:46:24 <beewoolie> JTAG isn't that complex.
Jan 13 14:46:38 <beewoolie> The closest to what you need is in the openwince code, but that requires an OS.
Jan 13 14:47:06 <beewoolie> I've been hacking at some code to handle the JTAG operations.  It's far from the level that you need.
Jan 13 14:47:11 <AchiestDragon> the arm cpu is runing debian linux 
Jan 13 14:47:23 <beewoolie> If that's the case, the openwince code should suffice.
Jan 13 14:47:35 <beewoolie> You'll have to write a driver to handle the lowest level IO.  
Jan 13 14:48:10 <beewoolie> Once you get the code to program the FPGA from your PC, only that lowest level IO part needs to be written.
Jan 13 14:48:29 <lennert> probably just toggling some GPIOs
Jan 13 14:48:33 <beewoolie> Right.
Jan 13 14:49:02 <beewoolie> It's just a matter of implementing to their API.  I haven't spent much time reading their code, so I cannot speak to the difficulty.
Jan 13 14:49:13 <beewoolie> I believe you'd just have to implement a new 'cable'.
Jan 13 14:49:37 <beewoolie> The parallel devices are already pretty close to that you'll need.
Jan 13 14:49:41 <AchiestDragon> i have some code that will do the job , but its not oss so it would preclude distributing it , as the fpga card is intended to be a openhardware project it needs some oss tools 
Jan 13 14:50:10 <beewoolie> So, you already know how to do the work.
Jan 13 14:50:34 <AchiestDragon> well im better at hardware than software 
Jan 13 14:50:52 <AchiestDragon> but could manage the driver
Jan 13 14:54:44 <AchiestDragon> i gather from the chan topic that this chan is for software that is still in early development 
Jan 13 14:55:25 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 14:55:31 <AchiestDragon> k , kool
Jan 13 17:09:09 <beewoolie> [g2]: Well, it looks like the MMU code works.
Jan 13 17:09:35 <beewoolie> [g2]: According to Voodoo_Z, the boot time is about half, but that includes an upgrade to version 3.1 of openslug as well.
Jan 13 17:14:24 <lennert> beewoolie: you _are_ using an initial 1:1 map, are you?
Jan 13 17:14:34 <beewoolie> Yep.
Jan 13 17:14:39 <lennert> ok, good
Jan 13 17:14:40 <beewoolie> I don't protect anything.
Jan 13 17:14:49 <beewoolie> All I'm doing is adding C and B bits to the SDRAM.
Jan 13 17:14:56 <lennert> i know kyllikki and fluff were struggling with ABLE for days until they did the 1:1
Jan 13 17:14:58 <beewoolie> Even flash remains uncacheable.
Jan 13 17:15:12 <lennert> apparently it's very processor-dependent what happens after the mmu enable cp write
Jan 13 17:15:14 <beewoolie> It's silly to do anything else.  IMHO.
Jan 13 17:15:18 <lennert> agreed
Jan 13 17:15:37 <beewoolie> It doesn't seem to be that different between the xscale and armv4.
Jan 13 17:15:53 <lennert> what armv4 core you using?
Jan 13 17:15:59 <beewoolie> arm922.
Jan 13 17:16:17 <beewoolie> I have arm7 cores, too.  All of them work with the same code.
Jan 13 17:16:29 <beewoolie> The xscale has only a couple of new things.  The cache flush routin is different.
Jan 13 17:17:22 <lennert> well, because you do 1:1
Jan 13 17:17:28 <lennert> so there is no ambiguity
Jan 13 17:17:41 <beewoolie> Yeah, but what else could anyone do?  Even the kernel goes 1:1.
Jan 13 17:17:50 <lennert> if you don't do 1:1 it's apparently cpu-dependent on which cycle the mmu 'starts working'
Jan 13 17:17:58 <lennert> well, ABLE did non-1:1 for a while
Jan 13 17:18:08 <beewoolie> Oh, that.  Well, it's not wise to depend on that.
Jan 13 17:18:18 <lennert> sure, agreed
Jan 13 17:18:26 <lennert> 1:1 should never be a problem
Jan 13 17:18:31 <lennert> on any core
Jan 13 17:18:35 <beewoolie> Besides, there are clever ways to make that irrelevent.  I do so in APEX when I relocate.
Jan 13 17:18:52 <beewoolie> I put the code in both places and jump to the copy.
Jan 13 17:19:01 <lennert> that should work
Jan 13 17:19:09 <lennert> does APEX support ixp2000? :)
Jan 13 17:19:16 <lennert> guess not, huh
Jan 13 17:19:23 <lennert> perhaps i should try and add that
Jan 13 17:19:26 <beewoolie> I just cannot see any reason to put the code that is running in any other place when the MMU is enabled.
Jan 13 17:19:34 <beewoolie> I don't have one of those.
Jan 13 17:19:49 <beewoolie> It probably takes very little to make it work.
Jan 13 17:19:50 <lennert> enp2611 uses silly redboot
Jan 13 17:19:58 <beewoolie> Most of the coding has to do with SDRAM init.
Jan 13 17:20:00 <lennert> just the sdram config, i think
Jan 13 17:20:02 <lennert> yeah
Jan 13 17:20:06 <beewoolie> Yeah.  Redboot is a bear to work with.
Jan 13 17:20:14 <lennert> s/bear/bee-yatch/
Jan 13 17:20:14 <purl> lennert meant: yeah
Jan 13 17:20:19 <beewoolie> The only thing it has on me is support for the NPE.
Jan 13 17:20:23 <beewoolie> lol
Jan 13 17:20:38 <beewoolie> At some point, I'll get fed up and do the work.
Jan 13 17:20:41 <lennert> the next-gen intel npu, the ixp23xx, has NPUs too :-/
Jan 13 17:20:52 <beewoolie> Still, it's the licensing that gets my goat.
Jan 13 17:21:06 <lennert> there's _somewhat_ more docs than for the ixp4xx, but still wildly insufficient
Jan 13 17:21:40 <lennert> "to get one's goat".. sounds like a soviet countryside proverb ;)
Jan 13 17:22:17 <[g2]> beewoolie cool!
Jan 13 17:22:34 <[g2]> how long does it take for Voodoo_Z
Jan 13 17:22:37 <beewoolie> [g2]: I'm adding the notes to my wiki.
Jan 13 17:22:50 <beewoolie> [g2]: He says it took 31 seconds to get to the console prompt.
Jan 13 17:23:54 <[g2]> from power on ?
Jan 13 17:24:05 <beewoolie> Yea.
Jan 13 17:24:17 <lennert> that's not very impressive... *ducks*
Jan 13 17:24:30 <beewoolie> Note that openslug 3.1 doesn't put the kernel in jffs2.  so all apex does is copy the kernel from flash and jump.
Jan 13 17:24:36 <[g2]> lennert it isn't but it started at over 2 minutes :)
Jan 13 17:24:46 <beewoolie> lennert: I agree, but most of the time is spent in booting the OS.
Jan 13 17:25:08 <beewoolie> it used to take 30 seconds for the boot loader to get it's shit together.  That is redboot.
Jan 13 17:25:16 <[g2]> 20
Jan 13 17:25:19 <lennert> s/it's/its/
Jan 13 17:25:19 <purl> lennert meant: that's not very impressive... *ducks*
Jan 13 17:25:29 <lennert> redboot is kind of shite
Jan 13 17:25:53 <lennert> i'm not very happy with it but my board comes with it
Jan 13 17:26:11 <lennert> my strategy (for kernel code) is to trust the bootloader not more than i have to
Jan 13 17:26:35 <[g2]> I'd like to replace it on the Loft, but since it all works it's not worth it yet
Jan 13 17:26:40 <beewoolie> [g2]: I have an adorable habit of exaggeration
Jan 13 17:27:00 <[g2]> beewoolie it was in the ball park
Jan 13 17:27:04 <lennert> beewoolie: mine is worse
Jan 13 17:27:06 <beewoolie> [g2]: Well, I think it would be more compelling if it had NPE support.
Jan 13 17:27:19 <[g2]> the old boot time was around 40 seconds with APEX iirc
Jan 13 17:27:39 <lennert> able is closed source so not an option
Jan 13 17:27:45 <beewoolie> What is able?
Jan 13 17:27:48 <lennert> redboot is open sourced but.. well.. ugh
Jan 13 17:27:52 <lennert> ABLE is the simtec bootloader
Jan 13 17:27:53 <beewoolie> yeah, I know.
Jan 13 17:27:59 <lennert> it comes with simtec boards
Jan 13 17:27:59 <beewoolie> Right.  I saw that.
Jan 13 17:28:04 <[g2]> and the Loft
Jan 13 17:28:14 <[g2]> speaking of which 
Jan 13 17:28:17 <lennert> u-boot is not _too_ bad
Jan 13 17:28:23 <beewoolie> I wrote APEX because blob was so bad as to be a hurdle for development.
Jan 13 17:28:29 <[g2]> anyone got a xscale-elf LE tool chain around ?
Jan 13 17:28:37 <beewoolie> I won't comment on uboot as it may tend to imcriminate me.
Jan 13 17:28:47 <lennert> beewoolie: why so? :)
Jan 13 17:28:48 <beewoolie> Not it!
Jan 13 17:29:06 <lennert> beewoolie: death threats to the author, you mean? :)
Jan 13 17:30:05 <beewoolie> :-)
Jan 13 17:30:50 <beewoolie> Australians are nice.
Jan 13 17:31:10 <lennert> what do australians have to do with it? :)
Jan 13 17:42:04 <wookey_> beewoolie: what was wrong with blob - I liked that loader
Jan 13 17:42:16 <beewoolie> wookey_: Have you ever hacked on it?
Jan 13 17:42:18 <wookey_> nice and small and comprehensible
Jan 13 17:42:21 <wookey_> yes
Jan 13 17:42:28 <beewoolie> comprehensible?
Jan 13 17:42:36 <beewoolie> there is nothing comprehensible about automake.
Jan 13 17:42:38 <wookey_> with the diags separated out
Jan 13 17:42:42 <beewoolie> Moreover, it's configuration sucks.
Jan 13 17:42:56 <wookey_> oh well, each to their own
Jan 13 17:43:01 * lennert steals beewoolie's apostrophes
Jan 13 17:43:13 <beewoolie> It is hard to extend.  It has ifdefs everywhere.  It cannot be extended with drivers in a modular way.
Jan 13 17:43:18 <wookey_> we've been using bootldr recdently which is huge and confusing
Jan 13 17:43:22 <beewoolie> Their command structure isn't orthogonal.
Jan 13 17:43:39 <beewoolie> oops.
Jan 13 17:43:46 <wookey_> I wrote a review of available loaders about 3 years ago. probably time to look again
Jan 13 17:44:10 <wookey_> (I'd like to use something other than bootldr on ballloon3 if possible
Jan 13 17:44:12 <beewoolie> I wrote APEX to cope with these things.  It's smaller, simpler, has a consistent command syntax.
Jan 13 17:44:21 <wookey_> URL?
Jan 13 17:44:28 <beewoolie> it doesn't have all sort of quirks that blob had.  for example, it never modifies itself.
Jan 13 17:44:33 <beewoolie> wiki.buici.com
Jan 13 17:44:43 <wookey_> I know a lot of people use uboot so it has wide support
Jan 13 17:45:09 <wookey_> whathardware does it cover?
Jan 13 17:45:26 <wookey_> (APEX, that is)
Jan 13 17:45:51 <beewoolie> wookey_: APEX is supported on a IXP42x and the sharp processors. 
Jan 13 17:45:52 <wookey_> I need a login for that wiki
Jan 13 17:45:59 <beewoolie> You must be on a Macintosh.
Jan 13 17:46:04 <wookey_> nope
Jan 13 17:46:09 <wookey_> firefox on debian
Jan 13 17:46:21 <wookey_> on a thinkpad
Jan 13 17:46:21 <beewoolie> really?  It doesn't need one when I browse from other sites.
Jan 13 17:46:27 <beewoolie> try to ignore the login.
Jan 13 17:46:51 <wookey_> ah yes - cancel it twice and I get through - odd
Jan 13 17:48:13 <beewoolie> I don't like the wiki software I started with.  I switched to mediawiki, but the site isn't running because it crashes the slug.
Jan 13 17:49:13 <beewoolie> wookey_: Oh yeah, and blob is a PITA to build.
Jan 13 18:03:04 <ka6sox-office> lennert: ping?
Jan 13 18:03:15 <lennert> ka6sox-office: `pong
Jan 13 18:03:25 <ka6sox-office> was somebody looking for me?
Jan 13 18:03:36 <ka6sox-office> I saw you mention my name in vain :)
Jan 13 18:04:25 <lennert> i think the bulgarian guy, velin something
Jan 13 18:04:30 <lennert> he wanted to fatten his slsug
Jan 13 18:04:35 <lennert> someone said you did that before
Jan 13 18:05:20 <ka6sox-office> its a VERY hard proceedure and very delicate.
Jan 13 18:05:29 <ka6sox-office> not something I want to repeat :(
Jan 13 18:05:34 <lennert> if he's still there, maybe give him some hinys?
Jan 13 18:05:36 <lennert> hints
Jan 13 18:07:16 <beewoolie> ka6sox-office: he asked for email addresses.  I told him he needed to lurk.
Jan 13 18:08:18 <ka6sox-office> okay
Jan 13 18:08:26 <ka6sox-office> I know a few bulgarians.
Jan 13 18:08:32 <ka6sox-office> (software guys)
Jan 13 18:16:15 <beewoolie> ka6sox-office: Apparently, I was wrong about ep1220's board.  There is nSRST line.
Jan 13 18:20:25 <lennert> i speak a bit of bulgarian!
Jan 13 18:21:53 <ka6sox-office> beewoolie-afk, I thought so!
Jan 13 18:22:00 <ka6sox-office> he and I discussed it at length.
Jan 13 18:26:10 <lennert> g'nite *
Jan 13 18:26:39 <ka6sox-office> nite lennert
Jan 13 18:30:50 <[g2]> sweet dreams of JTAG
Jan 13 18:31:16 <ka6sox-office> yes
Jan 13 19:39:52 <beewoolie-afk> ka6sox-office: I'm still waiting on a resistor.  The 487Ohm.
Jan 13 19:40:35 <beewoolie-afk> ka6sox-office: I suppose that I could figure out a combination of the ones I've got to get that value.
Jan 13 19:49:51 <ka6sox-office> parallel or Serial..it all works!
Jan 13 20:16:38 <beewoolie-afk> right.  I just have to figure out what makes sense.  2*243, 3*162... I don't have *every* other value.
Jan 13 20:40:54 <ka6sox> morning
Jan 13 20:53:56 <beewoolie-afk> ka6sox: did you just wake up?
Jan 13 21:03:12 <ka6sox> something like that!
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 13 22:55:06 2006
Jan 13 23:02:35 <velinp> hi all; ka6sox: you here?
Jan 14 00:13:00 <ka6sox> velinp, ping?
Jan 14 00:13:15 <velinp> hi
Jan 14 00:13:27 <ka6sox> howdy...wazzup?
Jan 14 00:14:25 <velinp> well, smd told me that you have maybe done a memory upgrade, replacing chips on an NSLU2; curious how strong the chips are glued
Jan 14 00:14:46 <ka6sox> not bad but the traces are TINY.
Jan 14 00:14:58 <ka6sox> I've been sucessful in one out of 4 attempts.
Jan 14 00:15:40 <velinp> too bad; maybe I should go the additive way
Jan 14 00:15:56 <ka6sox> might be the "only" way..its not fun however.
Jan 14 00:16:40 <ka6sox> just curious..what do you want to do with the slug?
Jan 14 00:16:59 <velinp> i dedicated it to armeb-buildd (wouter)
Jan 14 00:17:30 <ka6sox> ah...is it online now?
Jan 14 00:17:51 <velinp> yes; but ssh is firewalled; enable for you?
Jan 14 00:18:10 <ka6sox> we have only keys enabled.
Jan 14 00:18:17 <ka6sox> (on bob and wendy)
Jan 14 00:18:49 <velinp> true; wouter had some problems, so he stopped the bdd; can't find hime since :)
Jan 14 00:19:11 <ka6sox> ah....same on Bob...been idle for 8 days now.
Jan 14 00:20:14 <velinp> wouter seems busy with fosdem, maybe the shine loft, too; mailed him 09.01 and 13.01 - no reply
Jan 14 00:20:47 <ka6sox> okay last I spoke to aba he was looking for him too.
Jan 14 00:21:15 <velinp> hope wouter will soon put efforts on bdd's
Jan 14 00:21:58 <ka6sox> ya
Jan 14 00:22:39 <ka6sox> I'm still working on getting something bigger (like a 64MB Nas100D running so we can eliminate some of the cc1plus swapping.
Jan 14 00:23:06 <velinp> 64MB do not make a difference?
Jan 14 00:23:35 <ka6sox> I haven't tried...I would need to ask [g2] about 64MB.
Jan 14 00:25:06 <velinp> I have an idea: if I piggiback 2 larger chips (256 mbit instead of 128), could it be possible to use, say 96MB?
Jan 14 00:27:06 <ka6sox> they have to be exactly the same size.
Jan 14 00:27:23 <ka6sox> (the memory management only can deal with banks of the same size)
Jan 14 00:29:57 <velinp> as far as I read the 256mbit specs, it seems in case the second set is larger, using part of it should not be a problem; or am i wrong?
Jan 14 00:31:37 <ka6sox> the memory bank arraingement requires each bank to be identical.
Jan 14 00:32:24 <ka6sox> so uneven banks will only respond as the smaller of the 2 banks.
Jan 14 00:32:41 <ka6sox> (otherwise you will try to address memory that doesn't exist.
Jan 14 00:34:36 <velinp> so if the second set is larger, it will only be partially useable, but will work?
Jan 14 00:34:50 <ka6sox> yes
Jan 14 00:35:03 <ka6sox> you have to configure the ram for 2 banks of the smaller chips.
Jan 14 00:35:40 <velinp> when there are 2 banks, the MMU interleaves them?
Jan 14 00:36:22 <ka6sox> I think that they are contiguous.
Jan 14 00:36:28 <ka6sox> so the are "stacked"
Jan 14 00:36:31 <ka6sox> not interleaved.
Jan 14 00:37:36 <velinp> so, as the stock chips are selected by cs_1 (and are maybe the higher part), if hdw is configured for 128MB, but kernel is told to only use 96MB, it might work?
Jan 14 00:39:40 <ka6sox> you would only get 64MB even if you used 32MB chips for the stacked set.
Jan 14 00:39:52 <ka6sox> the memory manager can't handle different sized banks.
Jan 14 00:40:17 <ka6sox> if you configure it for 128MB it will fail as you have a 32MB chunk off address space with NO RAM present.
Jan 14 00:42:21 <velinp> true; i thought if the non-existent 32MB are at the end, kernel could avoid using them
Jan 14 00:44:22 <ka6sox> I don't think that is the way the memory unit works..but I could be wrong.
Jan 14 00:44:46 <ka6sox> everything I've read is that you *have* to have identical sized banks.
Jan 14 00:46:10 <velinp> ok, thanks. I will try to talk my hdw friend to piggyback larger chips, read the specs, and come back about apex/redboot; I think it might not work beyond the 64MB, but 64 should work.
Jan 14 00:47:13 <ka6sox> 64 will most definately work.
Jan 14 00:47:14 <ka6sox> :)
Jan 14 00:48:02 <velinp> so, maybe no luck with >64, but no harm <=64?
Jan 14 00:51:35 <ka6sox> yes...I think that is the most reasonable cours.
Jan 14 00:51:39 <ka6sox> er course
Jan 14 00:53:16 <velinp> thanks, ka6sox; I go into readonly mode
Jan 14 00:57:02 <ka6sox> its midnight here and I must sleep...
Jan 14 00:57:38 <velinp> good night to you; it's 10AM here in BG
Jan 14 00:57:56 <ka6sox> I was in .al last summer for a month
Jan 14 00:58:20 <velinp> al == Albania?
Jan 14 00:58:40 <ka6sox> yes
Jan 14 00:59:28 <velinp> if you happen to come in BG, I would be glad to meet you; good night, sir :)
Jan 14 00:59:51 <ka6sox> we were all set to help a girl get to Sofia but she met her father in Milan so we didn't have to.
Jan 14 01:00:33 <ka6sox> night sir...cya laters.
Jan 14 01:00:47 <velinp> buy, and thanks again
Jan 14 01:00:57 <velinp> s/buy/bye/
Jan 14 01:00:59 <purl> velinp meant: bye, and thanks again
Jan 14 01:01:18 <ka6sox> thanks purl
Jan 14 01:01:22 <ka6sox> :)
Jan 14 02:31:41 * lennert kicks the ixp23xx
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 14 02:59:58 2006