**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 21 02:59:56 2006
Jan 21 03:51:59 <lennert> [g2]: ok, cool :)
Jan 21 03:53:34 <lennert> velinp: you know that 'velnias' is lithuanian for 'devil'? :)
Jan 21 03:53:44 <lennert> i missed beewoolie again.. darn
Jan 21 04:01:40 <velinp> lennert: oops! I think to rename it immediately :) 
Jan 21 04:03:50 <velinp> lennert: debian did tell me to stay with composers, but I didn't listen ... 
Jan 21 04:04:05 <lennert> hehe
Jan 21 04:04:08 <lennert> so what is velnas?
Jan 21 04:06:21 <velinp> lennert: it's the name of an armeb buildd I feed, but don't touch; http://unstable.buildd.net/buildd/armeb_Building.html
Jan 21 04:06:43 <lennert> i know
Jan 21 04:06:47 <lennert> but what does the word mean?
Jan 21 04:06:49 <lennert> is it bulgarian?
Jan 21 04:07:59 <velinp> lennert: no; it's just compesed on my name and a NAS; i didn't exepect this name to go outside the house; i also have velrtr,velnbk,vldnbk ...
Jan 21 04:08:20 <lennert> ah, i see
Jan 21 04:08:35 <lennert> like lenbox
Jan 21 04:09:53 <velinp> like lenbox :) had a talk with NAiL on nslu2-linux; he could make good use of jtag-base memtester; know something available (nslu2 or generic)?
Jan 21 04:10:18 <lennert> no, dunno, sorry
Jan 21 04:10:37 <lennert> i would also like to run a jtag memory test over my slug, because it has some memory problems
Jan 21 04:10:53 <lennert> if i can find out which page is broken i can just have that page excluded and use it normally
Jan 21 04:12:25 <velinp> well, I had a slug with bad ram ~10 months ago; i used memtester (by Charles Cazabon); memtester is also in debian/unstable; it's a cute little program
Jan 21 04:12:45 <lennert> okay, but that needs to run from the os, right?
Jan 21 04:14:06 <velinp> yes; i cross-compiled and run under openslug/unslug?? in my case it was a problem that showed randomly and was in high ram, so I could play
Jan 21 04:15:00 <lennert> ok, so, you have it isolated now?
Jan 21 04:15:58 <velinp> better, supplier changed it for my current one; 
Jan 21 04:16:11 <lennert> ah, okay
Jan 21 04:16:24 <lennert> mine is heavily modified (serial, jtag) so i doubt i still have warranty
Jan 21 04:17:11 <velinp> so we seem to have a task at hand: spend some effort on a jtag-based memtester ??
Jan 21 04:17:18 <lennert> yeah
Jan 21 04:17:26 <lennert> get the jtag api and hardware working first, though ;)
Jan 21 04:17:42 <lennert> it's probably possible to make a memory tester with vmaster's stuff
Jan 21 04:19:45 <velinp> i meant if a jtag library is available, it should not be very difficult to modify memtester to test via jtag; speed is a problem; what is vmaster's stuff ?
Jan 21 04:20:00 <lennert> well, you cannot drive SDRAM chips via jtag directly, i think
Jan 21 04:20:06 <lennert> as you have to get the clocking right
Jan 21 04:20:21 <lennert> so, you'll have to program the cpu to load a tiny memory tester into its instruction cache
Jan 21 04:20:40 <lennert> vmaster's stuff is 'openocd', 'open on-chip debugger' (if i understood it correctly)
Jan 21 04:20:59 <lennert> he gave a link about it..   openocd.berlios.de ?
Jan 21 04:21:37 <velinp> it is; thanks; /me reading ...
Jan 21 04:23:44 * velinp you guys have so many ideas; I can't keep up, really
Jan 21 04:23:52 <lennert> hehe
Jan 21 04:42:29 <vmaster> my stuff is still arm7/9 only, the xscale on the nslu2 is totally different as far as debug is concerned
Jan 21 04:47:12 <velinp> vmaster: hi; lennert just opened my eyes to http://openocd.berlios.de/web/ ; it is still possible to jtag-upload small (~2K) machine code into xscale and execute it there, isn't it ?
Jan 21 04:49:12 <vmaster> that's how xscale debugger work, yeah
Jan 21 04:49:28 <vmaster> http://lapwww.epfl.ch/dev/arm/jelie/index.php
Jan 21 04:49:37 <vmaster> that's the only open xscale debugger i know
Jan 21 04:49:53 <lennert> !linkurl
Jan 21 04:50:02 <vmaster> ?
Jan 21 04:51:53 <velinp> vmaster: thanks; i will need some time to digest that; it's cool :)
Jan 21 04:52:36 <vmaster> gotta take the dogs for a walk... later
Jan 21 05:22:40 * velinp wbb 2h
Jan 21 10:03:13 <[g2]> any users of flash_erase or flash_eraseall ?
Jan 21 12:26:53 <ka6sox> vmaster, back from dog walking?
Jan 21 12:28:18 <vmaster> heh, yeah
Jan 21 12:31:30 <ka6sox> only 8hrs ago! :)
Jan 21 12:32:09 <ka6sox> how fast does the jtag need to go to do debugging on the ARM7/9 targets you are working on?
Jan 21 12:32:45 <vmaster> writing 128kb of target ram requires 3.5 million tck cycles - the faster the better
Jan 21 12:34:10 <ka6sox> ouch
Jan 21 12:34:13 <vmaster> the at91rm9200 (a arm920t hard core) for example allows up to 50mhz tck rate
Jan 21 12:34:32 <vmaster> the 3.5 million is for the arm7, an arm9 is about 1/3 more
Jan 21 12:34:39 <lennert> the ppc405 in the v2pro can allegedly do jtag up to half of its clock rate
Jan 21 12:34:44 <lennert> so for a 400mhz ppc405 that'd be 200mhz
Jan 21 12:34:45 <ka6sox> what is the fastest rate of tclk that you have seen it a device?
Jan 21 12:34:58 <ka6sox> whoa
Jan 21 12:35:22 <ka6sox> okay maybe we are going to need to re-think the tclk scheme.
Jan 21 12:37:11 <ka6sox> with the rise of faster cores that are able to be clocked faster than the CPLD/FPGA's that I'm used to playing with.
Jan 21 12:37:42 <ka6sox> I don't think that unless we use DDR that we can get those kind of speeds.
Jan 21 12:39:13 <ka6sox> AchiestDragon, is that even possible for us?
Jan 21 12:39:46 <ka6sox> oh wait...thats 200Mb/s
Jan 21 12:39:56 <vmaster> ka6sox: 50mhz would already be very good, i guess
Jan 21 12:40:25 <ka6sox> we are looking at 40mhz but I'm sure that we could ramp it up.
Jan 21 12:46:19 <ka6sox> it sure would be nice to be able to write redboot faster and do some debugging.
Jan 21 12:55:20 <wookey_> anyone got some gerbers for parallel port wigglers?
Jan 21 12:55:30 <wookey_> (open ones I can just build?)
Jan 21 12:55:44 <wookey_> we can't get the chip for the Lart JTAG any more
Jan 21 12:56:35 <AchiestDragon> wookey_:  a parallel port jtag 
Jan 21 12:58:02 <wookey_> and much smore software is written for the wiggler pinout
Jan 21 12:58:14 <wookey_> AchiestDragon: yep
Jan 21 12:58:33 <wookey_> we made a load of LART/Tux Jtags but have run out. 
Jan 21 12:58:57 <wookey_> I reckon moving to the wiggler design maes sense if we are going to dso something new
Jan 21 13:01:02 <AchiestDragon> whas the chip type that you cant get 
Jan 21 13:01:47 <wookey_> 74AHC541 IIRC
Jan 21 13:03:09 <AchiestDragon> try a diferent supplyer   
Jan 21 13:03:24 <AchiestDragon> or manufacturer 
Jan 21 13:03:48 <wookey_> You think those should still be available? I understand we tried quite hard...
Jan 21 13:04:24 <wookey_> but the point is that we ought to change to a more standard device anyway -having a unique JTAG device doesn't really help anyonhe
Jan 21 13:05:22 <lennert> avnet has them listed
Jan 21 13:05:33 <lennert> but no stock
Jan 21 13:05:38 <AchiestDragon> if not a odd , level translator type then maybe even the 74hc , 74hct  type or 74f ,74act should be pin compatable , but gives slighty diferent max speed , at 6mhz paralell port speed should be ok 
Jan 21 13:05:40 <lennert> wookey_: check www.em.avnet.com
Jan 21 13:06:25 <vmaster> wookey_: http://mmd.ath.cx/jtag.zip
Jan 21 13:06:36 <vmaster> that file is from the lpc2000 yahoo group
Jan 21 13:07:28 <vmaster> like most wiggler clones, it lacks the nTRST connection - you should add that
Jan 21 13:08:14 <AchiestDragon> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?No=0&OrgTT=*74*541&Nty=1&N=401%2b1005490&=gensearch&Ntt=*74*541&Ntk=gensearch&comSearch=true
Jan 21 13:08:44 <lennert> http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/74AHC541.html ?
Jan 21 13:10:29 <[g2]> wookey_ I'm having a parallel with a Xilinx S3 on board made
Jan 21 13:10:51 <[g2]> I'm gonna get a few and there's a API that's being written up
Jan 21 13:11:01 <[g2]> boards and docu should be ready next week
Jan 21 13:12:01 <wookey_> [g2]: OK - so that could pretend to be a LART or Wiggler JTAG? caoorindg to xilinx code?
Jan 21 13:12:11 <wookey_> that could be tres handy
Jan 21 13:13:03 <[g2]> wookey_ I think I'll have its own interface, but we could probably reprogram it
Jan 21 13:13:16 <AchiestDragon> wookey_:   its a 8 bit buffer , guess if you reworked the diagram you may be able to use a 74xxx254 setting the dir pin for one direction 
Jan 21 13:13:34 <AchiestDragon> 74xxx245 rather 
Jan 21 13:15:10 <wookey_> AchiestDragon: that looks right - I'll tell laurie that his claim you can't get them appears to be bollocks :-)
Jan 21 13:15:32 <wookey_> As you sey it could be reworked to use a different buffer easily
Jan 21 13:15:51 <wookey_> but if we are going to rework I'd go for a different pinout.
Jan 21 13:16:53 <AchiestDragon> not used them but there are sites on the internet that stock discontinued components (like   2102 rams that have been out of production for 15 years) 
Jan 21 13:18:45 <AchiestDragon> but  the 74 range of chips are pritty standard mostly , and with the exeption of some odd ones most are still avalable in one form or another , or there are equivelents in the series that are 
Jan 21 13:20:41 <[g2]> wookey_ I'll bug you in there about the flash
Jan 21 13:21:05 <wookey_> what's the diufferencde between 74AHC and 74HC?
Jan 21 13:21:33 <AchiestDragon> speed  genaraly    
Jan 21 13:22:13 <AchiestDragon> the hc is cmos , so low power , the a is for advanced 
Jan 21 13:22:45 <AchiestDragon> hc  highspeed cmos 
Jan 21 13:23:31 <ka6sox> the A's are typically more robust.
Jan 21 13:24:47 <[g2]> wookey_ what boot loader are you using with V3 ?
Jan 21 13:30:58 <wookey_> currently bootldr, although I'd like to change to something else if we can find the time
Jan 21 13:33:38 <ka6sox> lunch...bbs
Jan 21 13:39:43 <[g2]> wookey_ RedBoot is probably too bloated for you
Jan 21 13:40:12 <wookey_> probably - it's a plausible option though
Jan 21 13:41:46 <[g2]> wookey_ if we get bewoolie on board he could probably do you an APEX
Jan 21 13:42:09 <[g2]> I'm running with RedBoot now
Jan 21 13:42:35 <[g2]> I'm playing around with updating/replacing it from Linux along with the kernel
Jan 21 13:42:52 <wookey_> the things we need are pxa270 and yaffs support
Jan 21 13:42:53 <[g2]> I can switch between LE and BE systems by just changing the kernel
Jan 21 13:43:15 <[g2]> I haven't played with yaffs
Jan 21 13:43:30 <[g2]> much better than jffs2 ?
Jan 21 13:43:31 <wookey_> it cool (for NAND)
Jan 21 13:43:37 <[g2]> Ah...
Jan 21 13:43:38 <[g2]> nod
Jan 21 13:43:49 <[g2]> the 512 byte sector thing a different animal
Jan 21 13:44:03 <wookey_> much faster and simpler than JFFs2 - but no compression
Jan 21 13:44:21 <wookey_> much easier to include in a bootloader (or other OS) due to simplicity
Jan 21 13:44:22 <[g2]> that's fine NAND is much cheaper than NOR
Jan 21 13:44:38 <wookey_> designed for NAND (jffs2 was originally designed for NOR)
Jan 21 13:44:53 <[g2]> well I don't think jffs2 is hard
Jan 21 13:44:58 <wookey_> YSS" now supports 2K NAND as well as 512Byte nand
Jan 21 13:45:39 <wookey_> [g2]: it's different - you need to reserve more space because you don't know how much space any given bit of data will take up
Jan 21 13:45:49 <wookey_> (due to compression)
Jan 21 13:46:02 <[g2]> right and it is unhappy when there are no free blocks
Jan 21 13:46:04 <wookey_> and there is much more code, and it only works with Linux
Jan 21 13:46:14 <wookey_> that's fine for many people
Jan 21 13:46:19 * [g2] is only Linux :)
Jan 21 13:46:42 <[g2]> BSD is so 90s
Jan 21 13:46:47 <wookey_> yaffs2 works worst with linux :-(
Jan 21 13:46:52 <[g2]> doh!
Jan 21 13:47:34 <[g2]> so can you replace the bootloader from a running system ?
Jan 21 13:47:51 <[g2]> and kernels/rootfs too
Jan 21 13:47:57 <wookey_> yaffs has been ported to vxworks, wince, eCos, threadx and various in-houes schemes
Jan 21 13:48:01 <[g2]> those should be a lot easier
Jan 21 13:48:36 <wookey_> [g2]: in principle yes, but in practice the botloder lives in NOR and you only use YAFFS for the NAND
Jan 21 13:48:54 <wookey_> (because you can't execute bootloader from (most) NAND chips)
Jan 21 13:49:05 <[g2]> ah... so you are probably in the same boat I'm in
Jan 21 13:49:45 <[g2]> wrt replacing the bootloader on NOR from a live system
Jan 21 14:53:54 <[g2-lap]> AchiestDragon or anyone are you familiar with this ? http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/
Jan 21 15:10:50 <AchiestDragon> dont like the gui 
Jan 21 15:12:23 <[g2]> AchiestDragon are there other tools you'd recommend that could be used as a front-end ?
Jan 21 15:13:22 <AchiestDragon> ? , was looking at the screenshot , just seems to have a lot of popups 
Jan 21 15:17:06 <[g2]> AchiestDragon what tools do you think we should use for showing logic and analysis
Jan 21 15:18:03 <AchiestDragon> thay would need writeing 
Jan 21 15:24:38 <[g2]> Oh I'm sure there's a bunch of GUI front-ends
Jan 21 15:24:53 <[g2]> we don't need to do everything from scratch
Jan 21 23:34:06 <velinp> ~seen ka6sox
Jan 21 23:34:18 <purl> ka6sox is currently on #openjtag. Has said a total of 15 messages. Is idling for 10h 39s, last said: 'lunch...bbs'.
Jan 22 01:07:21 * ByronT is away: auto-away after 180m idle
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 22 02:59:57 2006